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YOUR RESEARCH#$@! Blew my engine today #&*#@!
Reported or suspected cause
car is a tip
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Read evidence and context
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Leading evidence: 'car is a tip' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'car is a tip' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check "sent" folder and it shows it went through' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Reported cause
Turned out to be a charging cable and that was covered under warranty.
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Reported cause
The problem is the deal LN/Flat 6 had to make with APR in order to have these bolts made.
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The issue is the deviations won't always be there.
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Reported cause
We ship cars across the US all the time, but this method has proven to be more cost effective and simpler for those in California.
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822 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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5 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Well, a fun day, blew the motor.
Here's the details:
San Diego Region PCA was doing a back-county drive today, through the twisties. There were about 45 cars. The group kept getting split up, and at one point I was in a group of about 5 or 6 cars, and the leader pulled over to check his GPS.
I was stopped next to him on an unpaved area at the side of the road. He then figured he knew which way to go, and took off. Since I was on dirt, I accelerated rather slowly. The second I hit the pavement, I heard a "bang".... it sounded like I had thrown a rock into the undercarriage or something.
Immediately, the car shut itself down and I coasted to the side of the road. There was an approximately 30-foot-long oil slick on the road behind me. At the very beginning of the slick was the chunk of metal in the pic below. Looks like cast aluminum, so a part of the engine, obviously.
There was no cell phone coverage out there, so I had no way to call anyone. Fortunately, Chris and his wife in their 914 were behind me and stopped. But, there was no way they could give me a ride into town in the 914, and we were 10 miles out of the nearest town (Fallbrook) on a narrow, twisty, hilly two-lane rural road.
I climbed a hill with one of the Motorola radios that were passed out to some members of the group, to see if I could get any reception up there. Eventually, one of the guys and his wife on the tour got into radio range and I was able to let him know what was going on. ... everyone else was ahead and had no idea what was going on and there was no way to call them. He gave me a ride into Fallbrook (thanks, Jim!!!!) crammed in the back of his GT3. In Fallbrook, I called AAA, and Jim gave me a ride back to my car.
I had it towed to a shop in Vista, but the gate to their parking lot was was locked since it's a Sunday. However, a short while later, a guy towing a race car on a trailer showed up and had a transponder for the gate, and he let me in so that I could drop the car.
I wrote a note, attached it to my keys, and tossed them through the mail slot on the door, and got a ride back home. So, the car is over there now, in the shop's parking lot.
OK, the car may be toast. But, what do you armchair quarterbacks think blew?
(Note: RMS and IMSB were changed out about 2 years ago (about 19,000 miles ago).
2003, C2, Tip transmission.
Yep, exactly. I couldn't have been going much more than 5 mph. As mentioned above, it sounded like a rock, which struck me as odd, since I wasn't even going fast enough to kick up a rock.
Ouch! Sorry....I know how you feel. At first I thought you might have bottomed out on something but you sump pan looks good and the spewing oil is ahead that. Spun bearing....snapped / broken rod...dunno. When mine went I didn't have oil coming out......just felt a vibration and then a bang bang bang. Did you hear or feel anything outside of the one bang?
AOS sits right on top of that area, could it have went out in the blaze of glory?
If that is the only metal piece you found, it could be just a coincidence and it may not be from your car.
[
AOS was replaced last year. I don't think it would spew all that oil from an AOS. (Isn't the AOS plastic?)
Interestingly, the car eventually stopped leaking at the side of the road. But, by the time the tow truck reached the shop in Vista, the bed was covered in oil.
Ha, yeah, I tried to convince myself that a piece of cast aluminum would just randomly have been sitting at the beginning of my oil slick. Now, I just have to convince myself that if I buy a lottery ticket tomorrow, I will win.
Very sorry to hear, bro. When I first read your post, thought maybe there was a big drop off from pavement to dirt but it doesn't look that way in pic. You were not spinning then hit pavement because you said you took off slow. It looks like your crank case/or one bank has been compromised thus engine may be junk. WAG is problem at crank/flywheel area? Any piece missing from that bank? Or, maybe problem where crank case halves join at rear (towards front of car)?
What does it sound/feel like if you try to turn engine over (by hand of course)? The "bang" noise sounds really bad.
Ugh!!
I'm not a mechanic but "bang" followed by a piece of broken cast aluminum followed by an engine dumping all its oil says something broke inside and punctured the block/crankcase. Not good, hope for the best...
Sounds like you may have hit the engine on a portion of the pavement and cracked a piece of case resulting in the oil spill. You may be able to have the engine case repaired or welded. Good luck!
Cuda, I've had a similar experience with an E30 Beamer 15 years ago. I was taking a turn too quickly in the middle of the night and saw a fricking huge rock in the middle of the road and did not have enough time to maneuver. I went over it and immediately the oil pressure light went on. I stopped the car in the middle of the road and stepped out and oil was gushung out of the oil pan; I had chipped off a piece of the oil pan. But the engine didn't stop/stall. Could you have hit something and broken a piece resulting in the oil gushing out? Why the engine stopped is a puzzle? Safety mechanism perhaps? Or it could be internal and it that case you may be SOL.
Anyway, I hope it's not as bad as it sounds. Good luck.
There was only an inch or less transition from the road edge to the pavement, so I really don't think I hit anything. There was a spot on the run where many (most?) were bottoming out, but I don't think I hit it (I'm pretty sure it was in a place in the road after I broke down).
Any chance I can fix the engine case with a Gorilla Glue and sawdust paste?
As others have noticed, the oil leak is forward of the oil pan. Also, probably only a few quarts total have leaked out, as far as I can guesstimate. That means whatever blew out is higher than the oil sump.
Of course, I will keep you all posted with the developments, and I greatly appreciate all the kind words. I'm trying to stay positive, although the rational part of me is telling me that the car is toast.
Random thoughts of the moment:
Sh*t, sh*t, sh*t.
Just spent over $1k last month respraying bumpers, paint correction, etc. Shoulda waited one more month.
Just paid the registration and smog last week. I never pay these early, why did I do it this time?
Errggghhhh... this car is starting to cost me as much as my ex. At least it never bitched at me.
I'm already trolling Car Gurus and Auto Trader, etc. for a new car. I'm thinking of a 997, but probably will have to finance it, since I need to buy my daughter a new car. What are the current rates? Bought all my last cars cash.
Just bought another 914 a couple weeks ago. Should I sell it already?
Trying to figure out what I can get for a roller.
I put a $2500 double-DIN bluetooth entertainment system in it. And of course by now you all know of my expensive Fabspeed exhaust... I wonder if these should be pulled and sold separately.
Wondering how to keep my vanity plates if this car gets trashed but I don't get a new car right away to transfer the plates over to.
If I end up getting a 997, will I be forced to only discuss deviated stitching? Or is that only the 991 crowd?
Anyone on RL selling a pristine 997 at below market prices?
If the car's dead, for me it is like losing a loved one.
How much are Ramen noodles these days? Last time I was broke and lived off of them, I could find 10 packages for a dollar.
Is there really a Santa Clause? If so, at what age does he stop accepting gift requests?
Should I just say "screw it" and get a Prius? Starts with a P too.
At least I still have the 914's, so they can't take away my PCA membership.
This sucks, big time.
Sh*t, sh*t, sh*t.
Did I mention?: sh*t.
Bummer. Fingers crossed it's minor.
As far as your thoughts, if the car is a goner take the plates off and transfer them to the 914. Drive it while you search for a suitable replacement. When you find the right car you buy it and then decide if you want to keep the 914 or sell it. On the plus side the 914's value won't go down even with a couple thousand miles added to it. The registration fees can be recovered fortunately.
Good luck.
Mike, keep in mind that your insurance will cover your repairs if you did hit something ... just saying.
A few years back my wife hit an object in the road with the transmission pan and she was covered.
^^^ Yes, very good point. Also, the pavement may have been more uneven than I recall. And, I had to pull off to the side because the guy in front of me stopped short. Some big rocks, and generally unsafe conditions that the city and county should have been maintaining better.
Everyone's already said the sorry stuff. It's awful but not sure why you think your car is now just a roller. If you like it and have put money into making "your" car, isn't a new motor or rebuild worth it. The car will then be stronger than any used car you buy and it will be a motor with things just the way you would want them. Just my 2 cents.
Well, until I hear what the shop has to say, I haven't written the car off. Just mentally preparing.
But, I can't see spending 25,000 to put a new motor into a 20,000 car, no matter how much it's been personalized. Also, that fee would have to be paid in a lump sum, as opposed to spreading out car payments. I don't want to drop that much cash in a lump sum right now, due to some other expenses (including, as mentioned above, getting a car for daughter).
Anyway, I'll keep you guys posted, and will solicit opinions as things progress.
Then, as usual, I will probably ignore all the opinions and do what I want.
Two thoughts from your list. Prius-No. Instant loss of your Man Card Financing-Look at Penfed.org. Pentagon Federal Credit Union. Great rates and customer service. If you are not current or former military you can join one of the organizations on their site for $25.
OUCH! That is not how you wanted to spend the day with your car I am sure. Scary for me, a potential new owner. The car appears to have been well serviced, driven properly and you get metal chunks and an oil slick as a reward, bummer.
It will be interesting to hear the diagnosis and plan of action. It does sound like a decent excuse to move into a 997 though
Hopefully it's rebuildable. Doesn't make sense to throw a new motor in for the cost they are going for but I don't see any benefit to not doing it. Getting a 997 and you could be in the same boat a lot earlier then having a new engine in your 996.
Mike,
Dude, if you get a 997 it better be a 997.2. Shares the same engine. I would go the 996tt or aircooled route if I were you.
Sucks about yesterday bro. So sorry I didn't turn around to look for you. Never would've thought you had blown your engine.
P.s. I have dibs on you wheels... too soon?
Sorry to read about your car's trouble. Chunks of alum. on the ground along with engine oil suggest the engine's pretty sick maybe even terminal. I hope I'm wrong.
But let the tech check the engine out. Don't rush into things, make rash decisions.
Don't know if the price is below market, but there's a nice looking red 2006 997 just went up for sale. The seller posted some info in the 997 section.
Here's a link:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-for-sale.html
Up to you of course, but if the car's engine is beyond repair there's always a used engine.
FWIW, the PO of my car had to replace the engine because he drove over a chunk of semi-truck tire tread on the highway. It flipped up and broke the oil filter housing starving the engine of oil and trashing it. Good news is that his insurance paid to replace the engine. Hope it is something like that for you.
Hey, I've got a sweet guards red 928S4 that is just getting finished with a TB/WP plus about 1,000 WYAIT items that I'm ready to sell cheap. (I really hope the 928 ownership experience involves actually getting to drive the damn thing at some point
)
Oh, and the good news, you might want to subscribe to this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-na-to-tt.html
One last thing (and karma will probably come back and bite me in the *** for making this statement), this is exactly why I buy high-mileage cars for 60% of what a low-mileage example sells for. If I lose an engine, oh well, I saved it on the purchase price so I end up with a new engine for what I would have paid for a lower mileage car in the first place. So far (and this is where I'm pushing karma's buttons
), I've never had to replace an engine or transmission on a higher mileage car.
I was hoping it was the filter housing as well - your first photo cuts off just before the housing would have been visible.
It would be AWESOME if the "bang" was just the filter housing, and the engine stopped because you stalled it due to being freaked out by the bang. I'll keep up the "half full" routine until you have a diagnosis.
I hope it is not an engine failure. However,,if it is, there are options. I know because I had an engine failure on my '01 996 in July of 2013 while at a DE. Root cause of my failure (spun rod and main bearing) was a failed water pump that led to rapid coolant temperature rise.
I had the car towed to my dealer and they were able to provide me with 3 options. First was a remanufactured engine from Porsche for about $24K all in. Second was a rebuilt engine (third party) with an LN IMS upgrade for about $17K all in. Third was a used engine with an LN IMS upgrade for about $12K all in. I could not justify putting that much money in a car worth $20K so I ended up selling it to another Rennlister as is so he could convert into a track car. I posted the car on Rennlist and within 4 hours I had 4 offers to purchase.
I ended up getting a 2010 997.2S about a month later.
Good seeing you at TC's, sorry about the car
Here is the link for the place selling engines. I don't know anything about them, but might be worth a phone call
http://www.mbmotorsportsrepair.com/items-for-sale.html
Be careful with these guys. They keep changing their company name (used to be Porsche-land and got shut down for Porsche legal, then changed their name again to Forsche-land). They also use an inferior IMSB kit as compared to L&N/Flat 6 Innov.
Good seeing you at TC's, sorry about the car
Here is the link for the place selling engines. I don't know anything about them, but might be worth a phone call
http://www.mbmotorsportsrepair.com/items-for-sale.ht
That's the guy that worked on my motor... I can post the dyno sheet for you to see how healthy she is now if that helps anyone...?
the option of buying a used m96 should ONLY be considered, if it will be opened up and the bearings inspected/replaced otherwise a waste of money, cause you never know, maybe it will run for a year, maybe for a week...
Probably because there isn't enough info to go on. We don't know if he ran over something or if the noise was from the engine. He probably was not eyeballing the oil pressure gauge the exact moment of failure to note anything. I was so paranoid about failure that the entire time I drove mine, I constantly watched every gauge and listened for any suspicious sounds coming from my ticking time bomb.
I for one could not have resisted digging further into it. I would have to look under and around engine to see what happened. Its not our car so we shouldn't be too pushy for info. The is a really bad deal for the owner and last thing he needs is our non-stop questions even if they are well intended.
But if he's not too distraught we would all be interested in wtf happened and what MOF/CEF this will be classified as.
Wow that sucks. Any updates?
I keep changing my oil every 6 months, thinking someday I'll find a piece of something. So far it's clean. That does not mean that it won't go bam without warning. I guess the m96 is a reverse lottery - one we don't want to win.
Joe,
In case you didn't know, LexVan is a Jake fanboi.
He will bash anything not associated with Flat6 without even having experience.
Look up Zookie if you want to know first hand experience with the shop.
BTW, the IMSB that MB Motorsports uses is the best and longest selling IMSB from the motherland. I'd like to think the Germans know more about their products.
Well, as usual, looks like Macster got it right.
There's a hole through the case over the timing chain. I spoke to the guys at the shop, and they said it wasn't worth the expense of tearing down the motor to figure out exactly what failed, but their guess is that the cam timing chain broke or skipped, or the tensioners failed, thus causing the chain to break through the housing. Photo below of the hole, you can see the timing chain through the hole.
The shop says that there are no used 3.6 motors to be found.
I spoke to another guy who says that maybe he could find the case half and rebuild from there. Of course, there may be extensive collateral damage.
I have no idea what to do at this point. The rest of the car is in great shape.
Suggestions? And no, I really don't have the time or resources to part the car out.
Bummed big time.
Jay, good seeing you over at Tom's today. Thanks for the info.
.
I always said if mine went kablooie I would look at an LSx swap. I'd investigate that.
Also, remember there is no hurry to decide RIGHT NOW. when I destroyed my first car I rushed to put it behind me. In retrospect I wish I had found a roller and did an engine swap. Take some time and figure out what you want and then make that happen.
Mike - that stinks. Sorry to hear. Take a day or two and just let the dust settle and take your time to sort through your options. You've got other cars for your DD, so at least you don't have the pressure of being without wheels while you consider your options.
Without the ability/willingness to rebuild yourself, probably looking at selling it as a roller as your best option. If you kept the OEM exhaust system, then your Fabspeed stuff is probably worth swapping out and selling separately unless the buyer of the roller is willing to pay extra for it.
P.S. - If it makes you feel any better, last year one of the attorneys who works for me blew the engine in his circa 2008 VW Passat station wagon. He spent over $6,000 rebuilding the engine. At the end of the day, it was still a Passat station wagon. For not much more than that same $6,000, you can do the LSx swap.
Sorry to hear about this Cuda, you're certainly a passionate owner from your posts and mods, I hope this sorts itself out and you find an even better Porsche in the future.
Mike,
The case itself could probably be repaired by welding. Other damage is unknown so who knows if it is worth the effort. Dwayne Dement at Vision Motorsports
http://www.visionmotorsports.com/
in Laguna hills could help with advise as surely they have experienced this before. Might be worth a phone call.
Better luck, Paul
Getting an LS-swapped 911 registered in California is...well, I won't say impossible, but it's a job. Even upgrading a Corvette with a newer CARB-certified crate motor took a year. Every exhaust component must be CARB certified, and then you have to hope that you find a smog referee who (a) knows what he's doing, and (b) isn't an a-hole, as the entire process can be shut down if the referee you get is having a bad day.
Go with the guy who can find the case halves and rebuild it from there. Cheapest route and once it's running it will be worth a lot more then a run-runner.
One of the (few) nice things about living in California is that there are a crap-ton of indy Porsche shops, and several of them are very good. Hopefully Cuda can find the right one to help him get back on the road.
While I like to be right this is one time I wished I was wrong and it was something much less serious.
What to do now?
Right now nothing. Take some time to reflect on the situation.
My thoughts are the car is still a great car. If you haven't fallen out of love with it, think about getting it back on the road. Or not.
What options do you have open to you?
I like to lay them all out.
1) Factory replacement engine. You know the con: Expensive. (But price a factory replacement engine when you feel up to it just so you know). Pros: Drop in simple. Comes with some warranty. Car will be easy to move on when (if) the time comes. The car is not a Frankenstein.
2) Rebuild the existing engine. However, given the failure mode I'm going to go out on a limb and say the engine is probably not rebuildable. I'm not sure mixing cases with these engines is advisable, let alone possible. You can be facing some expense to tear the engine apart just to find it is not rebuildable.
However, you might want to consider consulting with a higher authority on this subject. Give Jake Raby a call and see what he has to say. I don't speak for him, obviously, but I have to offer be prepared for he may *not* be willing to discuss this over the phone. I could understand this position. He would have to make a very important decision based on just hearsay. If he says the engine's rebuildable and it proves to not be once it is in his shop then there's that to deal with. If he says it is not rebuildable and you find another shop who is willing to rebuild it, well that's the other side. But give JR a call and listen to what he has to say.
3) Salvage engine. There may not be any now but just wait. Cons: Getting a good engine. If the car shows up totaled from a front end collision the engine's probably good. Better if the car's equipped with a Tip. You want avoid a flood car (for obvious reasons), a recovered stolen car (for obvious reasons).
4) Frankenstein the car. Now maybe "Frankenstein" is painting this option a bit negatively unfairly. It is your car and your money and you have to make the choice that feels best to you. But a LS2 engine swap may be something to consider. I have not seem one up close and personal and I would have to in order to be able to better judge the quality of the job and ideally at least have a ride in one to judge the car's character. My opinion except for the number of cylinders and their layout this should look "factory". Any loose wiring, flopping hoses, just any signs of anything not bolted down, secured by proper straps, improperly routed, inexplicable CELs, vague references to overheating, or any other issues or troubles, keep looking.
5) Sell the car as is where is and move on. Give Oklahoma Foreign a call and talk to somewhere there about the circumstances and see what the offer is and how the transaction goes down. This might be financially a bit brutal but the break is clean and you can move on with your life. And while this might be brutal just have the wrong shop take on rebuilding the engine, or elect to install a V8 and pick the wrong shop. Those will be financially and emotionally brutal and then some. Remember, there is always another car.
Think about the above. Research what you can about the above. You want to learn enough about all your choices so when the time comes you make the best decision for you.
Best of luck.
I would go the route of the guy with case half, I have done it with mine and there is no big deal, if it is only the cam chain it is really not too bad, maybe few bent valves in the mix, if the crank is ok, put on new bearings replace the timing chains and rails and tensioneers and job done
ok I haven't driven much yet but it works and runs like a champ now.
I wish you weren't in this situation. Seems like any decision you make has expense and turmoil hand in hand. Just remember this: If a problem can be solved by money, then it's not a problem.
Painful diagnosis for sure. Trust your gut and don't get beat up over the decision. Just reading this is painful.
Cars are somewhat disposable and most have a fixed shelf life.
Keep us posted on the next step!
Sorry to hear about this.
My 2 cents, I'd want to use the situation to pull the engine myself just for the experience and to be able to get some professional assessment once I had it opened up to where the nature of the damage could be determined.
At least that wouldn't cost much to do and I'd have some time to think and cuss properly while I was busting knuckles getting it opened up...
While I'm always a fan of DIY...when you show up at the Porsche indy shop on a flatbed, and the front trunk, passenger footwell, and back seats are full of disassembled engine, the price just doubled.
The engine would need to be openned up to see how bad the damage really is and only then can be determined if the engine is fixable. The chain bunched up and punched a hole so there will be more damage inside. If you don't want to spend any money on diagnosis then a replacement engine or selling it as is are the only two options left. A non running automatic 996 is worth less than a manual one. And even the manual non runners aren't worth much either....~$5K.
Sorry for your loss, and I hate to tell you that an LS in a Tip hasn't been done because of Engine control Units won't work together according to Renegade Hybrids.
Ouch that sucks
It won't make financial sense and it will sit for awhile until we can, but ours will get a new motor should this time come to us. She's owned it since day 1 though and there is a serious emotional attachment.
If Cuda wants a "new" car and had that kind of cash there is a nice looking silver/grey 03 Turbo on my dealers showroom floor right (or for a measly 100k more he could spring for their 14 GT3 with 3k on the clock
).
Damn... Sorry to see this... Take your time and think about this and research all options...
I see that
http://www.mbmotorsportsrepair.com/items-for-sale.html
has a 3.4 and a 3.6 listed for sale...
Ad in $1000 for R&R and figure out your costs... Also he might be able to rebuild what's left of your engine too...
Basic rebuild is in the $7000 range... Quick breakdown would be $1700-2200 in parts and the rest would be labor for a complete tear down and rebuild with all new gaskets, seals, chains, guides... Plus what is broke and needs repair from your current mishap... Blah... Blah... Blah!
JR job... Figure $20-25000 easy... But you would get an incredible strong and powerful motor... With a proven track record...
End thought... We are all sorry to see this... Take your time... Don't list to the chatter... Follow your heart and make sure your pocketbook can afford it!
When my motor went phffft in April 2013 I didn't have a clue what to do. I flatbedded it to an Indy. They wanted a left ******** to fix it..new porsche motor, rebuilt or just used. The trust level was just not there so I moved it to another garage. This was my DD. I called both coasts looking for a solution and beware of the snake oil out there if you chose to keep it. I can say from experiance if you have a bond to the car there is no clear answer......I stumbled through it. Let the sting go away and decide what to do. The thing you have going for you is you have time to figure this out and when you make a move don't look back.
Best of luck
Thanks for all the ongoing comments, guys. Very much appreciated. It makes this a slight bit easier to deal with. Sort of a catharsis writing out the saga.
Here's my short-term plan:
1. Run down to the liquor store tonight and get some tequila. Drink heavily. Please ignore any of my posts after about 10 pm tonight.
2. Tomorrow have the car towed over to Mulligan Racing in Vista. He's the guy that is willing to look at it and see if maybe a case half can be replaced. Mike Mulligan is a great Porsche mechanic, very honest, practical, and willing to look deeper into mechanical possibilities than most others.
3. Since no shop wants a roller sitting around, I'll have to get it towed home. I'll move one of the 914's into the garage and put the 996 outside. Towing fees add up quickly, however, so I have to minimize moving it here, there, and everywhere. A roller is a PITA to deal with.
4. I called my insurance company this afternoon and am waiting for the adjustor to call me in a day or two. I seriously doubt it will be covered, but worth that long shot. At least I can entertain that fancy for a day or two until I hear from them.
5. Regarding LS swap: a) as far as I am aware, not possible with tip; b) CA smog stuff would make that a very dicey proposition; c) I want a Porsche with a Porsche engine. Not much into Frankenmobiles, no matter how fun they may be (Well, OK, if someone wants to throw an LS into my Hyundai, I'd be cool with that).
6. RL member Javier (Niche) called Autobahn (a local dismantler) for me. I guess they may pay about $5k for the car as a roller, based on preliminary info. I'd swap out my Fabspeed exhaust first, and replace it with my OEM one. I have all the OEM parts except the exhaust tips. Paid over $6 K for the Fabspeed stuff, and it has brand new cats, only a couple months old. Anyone here wanna make an offer?
7. Javier has been bugging me forever to sell him my wheels. They have Bridgestone Potenzas on them that I just put on in January, $1,400. What should I charge with a "friend's discount"?
8. Two people now have recommended that I call Vision Motorsports in Orange County and see what they say. I'll do that.
9. Regarding Jake R. - I truly believe he's a great 996 motor builder. But, from what I've seen, I think his prices will be more than I want to pay, and he has an extremely long waiting list. I just don't see dropping 25K+ into a Raby motor. Plus, I have no usable core. Jake, what say you? How about a deal if I give you one of my 914's towards the cost of a rebuild/motor replacement? I know you're a 914 guy too.
10. Regarding DIY rebuild... I work about a zillion and a half hours a week. I'm on RL a lot, but it's in little 5-10 minute bursts between projects. It's my version of a coffee/cigarette break. So, I really can't afford to take the time away from my work. Plus, I don't have a lift, and not really room to keep a half-disassembled motor. Besides, it would take me forever, and I am just too impatient.
11. Regarding cost/expense of a replacement car: I think I'd probably want to go to a 997.2 or maybe even a 996 TT. However, to drop that much cash would eat much more than I want into my emergency cash funds. Was just kidding about getting a Prius. I'd never do that. Never.
12. I'll keep checking here for suggestions. Any of you ever sell a roller? Not even sure how to do that other than Craig's list and Ebay (and have to waste all sorts of time with scammers, lookers, etc.). It just isn't my personality to deal with it that way. I hate selling stuff, a royal PITA. But, if anyone knows a shop, or individual, or legitimate business that buys these, the car is great (other than the one obvious flaw). Extremely well maintained. Even polished at least 3 times a week.
13. Crowd-sourcing maybe? If everyone on RL kicks in just a small amount, we can get a new motor into this in no time. After all, it's holiday season.
14. Did I mention yet? This sucks.
Yeah I did read it, and you are right, you also called it out. Macster got the diagnosis prize for being slightly more specific in the cause.
From the chunk of metal, I already figured that the crankcase was punctured. I just had no idea what the puncture cause was. It still amazes me that the chain went kablooey like that, with very little stress on the motor at the time it went.
Pete, yeah, I'll start making calls to the salvage places, but I want to wait a bit until other avenues have been explored/exhausted.
From the pic looks like its the chain on the IMS at the (rear of engine unless Im looking at it wrong). Its probably going to be a very expensive repair if it even can be. Either way this is very bad for you and we all are sorry this happened. May be with a teardown/inspection we can learn something from it.
Damn man, that just sucks.
Too bad you called your insurance and made the post on the forum.
My contingency plan if something like this happened to the 996 was to burn the car in the desert and bury it in the hole I dug up earlier, then call in the insurance and report it stolen.
Correct!!! IMS chain. Prize awarded.
I didn't re-read my post above (for some reason, all the pages on RL are loading super slow), so if I said it was one of the other chains that was in error.
JD Arthur, it's my understanding that if the chain tensioners or rails break, that can cause the chain to skip. However, it's also my understanding that there is usually some advance warning as they fail (rattle sound upon engine start-up, etc.).
That really sucks!!! Sorry to hear that bud. If youre thinkg about a used engine try LA Dismanteler. Todd is not the most pleasent guy to deal with but he always has his hands on a engine.
Very sorry for your loss. So does this go down as an IMS failure or chain tensioner failure (or is it too soon to know for sure)? I think this is everyone's nightmare....
You may want to contact Porsche North America or maybe through Hoehn Porsche to see if there is any assistance (financially or on a remanufactured engine) that they may offer, even if it is a long shot.
I trade all the time, its in my blood and I would consider the right 914 :-)
I have a very good idea as to what caused this, and the collateral damage that exists. Thats all I'll say, else it'll just turn into another fear mongering event in the eyes of everyone else. It may not be a total loss, I have saved a dozen engines with a similar demise this year.
Our repair times, and reconstruction times are vastly different things. An in-depth repair can turn around in 30-60 days at max, a reconstruction is what takes 13 months. Shoot me an email to
[email removed]
as I am instructing my M96- 102 Engine Rebuild School the remainder of this week and I won't be available any other way.
Here's a pic that will look familiar to you… Yes, been there, done that and its generally not the chain thats the primary failure. In this instance a rod bolt fell out and was picked up by the timing chain, which then shot it through the case. All these failures have primary, secondary and sometime tertiary chains of events. Then comes the collateral damage.
Yes, I can repair that block.
I have been working on it for 5 years. The M96 Definitive Guide. It goes to the publisher the end of this month.
BUT I removed all failure information, with the exception of the 4 stages of IMSB failure. The other 26 modes worth of information went in the garbage.
Being this close to the ocean, how about this option
But on a serious note, really wishing you the best
Sea Lion Wants to Be Fastest Amphibious Car - YouTube
Not a chance in hell! Talk to your peers about that one, they are the ones that call the truth "fear mongering". The best way to make everyone happy was to toss the info. This one decision has held the book up for about a year.
All your Porsche parts sources will have them. I will not allow Amazon or etc to have the book for at least the first year, or maybe longer. I want our industry to benefit from this book as a whole, I don't give a damn about Amazon!
I also do not plan to sell them direct, and don't plan to sign any. This book is about the information, and nothing else. I even contemplated using an alias as the author just to avoid all the hype associated with writing a book.
Not a 996 owner.. But this is an interesting story. Just be careful about the crowd sourcing, because there was a recent thread on that and the poster took a beating
Now that you have a price from a company willing to buy the car from you as is where is, look around for an auto auction facility. Look for one under the name Adesa.
There are a number of these facilities around the country. They move a lot of cars. A few years ago the one in Tracy CA moved over 90K cars in one year and handled/processed 130K cars (and trucks, vans, RVs, motorcycles, boats, golf carts, etc.).
The reason I mention an auto auction is visit the facility and speak with the manager and see if you can auction the car off.
After my 2008 Cayman S received its salvage title and a price from OK Foreign I arranged to put the car up for auction in one of the weekly salvage car auctions.
The manager gave the car top billing on the auction floor. Put it in a prominent location and put up some signs detailing the circumstances of the car and what happened.
At the auction the car sold for several thousand dollars more than the insurance's value of the car, which happened to match the amount OK Foreign offered me for the car.
Oh, I had the right to refuse to sell the car if the price wasn't to my liking. I decided even if it wasn't quite as high as I could have gotten from OK Foreign I would sell just to avoid the cost of flat bedding the car somewhere and storing it until I could arrange with OK Foreign to sell it the car. IOWs, I took a shot with the car.
Well, the car sold for $20,700 vs. the $17,300 even though the bidding started out pretty slow and I was resigned to having to take the car back as the price was no where near what I had hoped it would be. But the auctioneer worked his magic and bam!
Afterwards I offered to pay the seller's fee but the manager refused to take my money.
If you go this route be sure you have a clear title cause there is not much time after the sale that the seller has to supply the buyer with the title to the car. I was told by the manager he had 30 days. If the title wasn't in the buyer's hands by then the buyer could return the car and ask for reimbursement for any "improvements" or "repairs" it had to the car in the meantime.
If the cam chain broke the engine will have suffered collateral damage. While I guess based on other posts the busted case half can be replaced with no apparent problems/issues the engine will have to be stripped down and gone through. This will be expensive. But probably less expensive than a factory sourced engine. The shop/person who does this has to have the highest recommendation as a botched job will have the engine sick or worst on the side of the road with its oil running out. Again.
Jake I think a second edition called the "MISSING 24" would be a great source of info and really appreciated to the majority of real enthusiasts. There will always be those who just deal with emotions that will hate it but so what. The losers are the folks you wrote all the info for in the first place and the garbage can just doesn't seem right to me. I realize its your decision and its your right to make it but I just wanted to throw my two cents in anyway.
Thanks for the additional info, Macster!
Jake... that pic of yours sure does look familiar! Nearly identical to mine.
I'll shoot you an email, and also some info. regarding the 914.
Sorry to hear about your engine, a rebuild under these conditions is always hard to swallow.
I'm new to the 996 forum. Appreciate the post so others can take away from the experience. After reading I'm interested to see the consensus elsewhere on timing pad/wear guides change intervals. I believe I've seen 50K miles, not sure, maybe it was 100.
In any case hope something positive happens for you. Everything happens for a reason.
Since you're in SoCal you should check out this thread (no affiliation):
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ld-review.html
If you can squeak out with a rebuild for under $8k it seems like that would be the better option vs. spending more for a newer/better car. With the rebuild you'll have a fully sorted car that's upgraded exactly the way you want it; and should be good for another 100k miles.
Also to save on towing costs you should definitely sign up with AAA (if you don't have it already). Your yearly membership cost (aroound $85/yr) will be recouped with 1 tow (you get 4 per year).
I agree.
Also would like to know Jake's thoughts on the new engine. Is the new engine something that a long term owner/buyer should take a chance on and will it not have similar issues as the m96/m97 engines. I am not talking lease or a pampering owner. Someone that DD the car under all weather conditions including winter.
Pete speaks from experience� X2!
Cuda 911, I am replying to your email now. Yes, your "outie" is a fairly common issue these days. I have sent his one occur from different primary modes of failure; because any debris that gets caught between the chain/ drive and the case can cause this. Based on my experience you have not had an issue with the chain it's self, but rather something that the chain picked up. If you look closely you'll see that the chain appears to be taut and properly seated against the drive, that would not be the case if the chain actually failed. Also, that chain is 1" wide, if the chain would have failed the damage to the case would typically be much wider, and cover the entire width of the chain. These chains do wear, and they do stretch, but to date we have not seen the internal tooth type chain snap in half. See the pic below for a good illustration of a normally worn chain, and an abnormally worn chain that had stretched almost 5/16". The deflection between the two really tells the story.
Considering where you are, the good news is we won't need the whole car. My co- instructor in my Porsche engine classes is Tony Callas, of Callas Rennsport. His shop is in Socal and he's the only other person I trust to install one of my engines. We've had great luck having Callas extract the engine, and ship it to us, then we do our work and ship it back to them, they re- install and evaluate the vehicle. We ship cars across the US all the time, but this method has proven to be more cost effective and simpler for those in California. Its also proven to protect my reputation, because the Callas crew is just as detail oriented as we are.
FWIW- It is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to "rebuild" one of these engines thoroughly for 8k! The term "rebuild" is used very loosely, and thats why we refuse to use the term. To go through one of these engines properly, from cradle to grave, addressing all the factory deficiencies costs 14-16K IN PARTS & PROCESSES ONLY.
BTW- The 914 looks solid!
Can you enlighten some of us and explain how a rod bolt can just "fall" out? I gotta say, I've come across some odd failures on this motor that I don't normally see with other marques.
As for the content deletion on your upcoming book, bummers...
As for a signed copy, bummers too.
Also I hear two things being mentioned, repair and rebuild. However it's funny that most posters here automatically express the term rebuild which once again speaks to the mentality of the 996 gloom and doom folks.
So Jake, without tearing into the motor does this look like a repair candidate or does the probability lean more towards a rebuild?
Other marques may not use rod bolts that cost 3$ each at retail. The rod bolts stretch, then they lose their load that keeps them in place. When this happens they will literally fall out during operation. I have had a customer a few years ago call me from a dealership after he found an odd bolt in the engine bay that no one knew what it was. This was just about the time that we were easily able to send and receive pics from smart phones. He sent me a pic of it, and the bolt that no one could ID was indeed a rod bolt. He got a CEL for a lean running condition, as the rod bolt poked a hole in the top of the case when it exited and that wigged the fuel trim out. The engine was still running fine, with only one rod bolt holding the rod cap in place. Luckily he didn't rev the engine high enough to toss the cap off the rod. Thats a crazy situation and the only time I have not seen a massive failure from this.
He never heard the rod bolt exit the block..
I concur with Colonel Jessup in your photo, as I am also a Marine.
All that signing stuff is hype, just like marketing. I care nothing about marketing, bling or flashy ads. We make things run and we make things live. I spend all my time making the better mouse trap, and it'll never be good enough. The book is the same way, I have designed it to be a TOOL and it should have dirty finger prints on the pages and should live in the drawer of a tool box, not on someone;s shelf who's afraid to use it; because its a signed copy.
"rebuild" is totally different and has as much looseness in its definition as a 5 dollar hooker! Others use that to their advantage, because since nothing formally/ legally defines the term an engine can be rebuilt if you just take it partially apart, replace the bearings and clean it all back up again.
Physically speaking, at our level the engine could be repaired. The caveat to this is the mileage is too high for a positive return on investment to occur.
If I see this failure with a 40K mile car, I'll repair it and address a few deficiencies and the return on investment will be great.
If I see this failure with a 119K mile car, I won't even consider repairing it; because the owner will be throwing good money at bad, and will not get the proper return on investment for the expenditure.
Generally the highest mileage engine I'll "repair" is 65K, but thats dependent upon the mode of failure that required the repair to be made. I will also "down" any engine for repair if the cylinders show ovality, taper, or any sort of visual or measurable wear.
A rebuild is not a reconstruction. The term "overhaul" is more what these "rebuilders" should be using, but they don't. It doesn't market as well, even though its a more proper term.
Cuda, if you decide to go with Callas in Torrance, I will gladly tag along with you (if you do not mind). I was going to message you about him since he is the ONLY guy in our neck of the woods with JR's stamp of approval
Sent you a reply to your email, Jake.
In fact, my car is a 119,000-miler, so that may limit my options. Not a garage queen by any stretch of the imagination. I bought it to drive.
I 100% agree about the term "rebuild". I've been saying that for years, that the term "rebuild" has close to zero value.
Amazing how many cars for sale say something like "rebuilt engine." That means nothing, without specifically defining what was meant by the rebuild.
It has its own modes of failure. I am up to MOF#9 for the 9a1 so far.
We've been developing the 9a1 engines since 2010, and have already produced a 4.2L beast without any help from anyone outside our network.
Cuda 911, I didn't receive your reply?
So is there a maintenance regime that a 996 owner should/ could do to dig into these engines and hopefully avoid this situation?
Seems spending even a few $K that might have been money well spent.
If the issue really is a rod bolt that worked its way out, there is no PM routine that would prevent this (short of disassembling your engine and replacing every part with the potential to fail, come loose, or otherwise cause mayhem).
Internal combustion engines have lots of moving parts, and sometimes, a part comes loose, breaks off, or otherwise ends up where it shouldn't be, and problems ensue. While this may or may not be one of Jake's documented modalities, these things happen. Google "hole in engine block" - you'll get about 1.5 million results for many, many makes and models...
Checked my "sent" folder and it shows it went through, but I just re-sent the email.
I did tons of PM stuff on the car, replaced many items before they needed replacing. So, it was just bad luck, I guess.
I am 'rebuilding' an M96 now. The best source of info IMHO on preventing/fixing the 30 modes of failure of the M96 is Jake Raby. Never met him, never paid him a dime.He knows it,yet he has helped me several times. O.k his 'bedside manner' is a little rough but I go elsewhere for sweet-talk !
Unfortunately some forum members here have so irritated Jake from the peanut gallery that 26 of those modes got dumped from his upcoming book - M96 the Definitive Guide. That loss is an irreplaceable loss to those of us trying to succeed at rebuilding the M96. In addition he does not contribute as much as he used to. I understand why -when you try to help the Porsche community by sharing hard-won,valuable info and knowledge ,yet get slammed for it -it is logical to keep that knowledge to yourself.
Just try to get M96 wear tolerances/limits from Porsche ! They will not tell you anything and their manuals are equally silent. Jake knows all these precious numbers. His numbers help save these cars and their value. Porsche's silence prematurely condemns them to mere parts cars. A few Rennlisters are just making this sad situation worse by sending Jake highly critical PMs. So he just politely withdraws from sharing his knowledge with us.
Jake is criticized for scaremongering. I suggest it is the responsibility of the reader to evaluate the risk of one of these modes of failure occurring. If the reader can't (or will not bother to) evaluate the risk why is it scaremongering ?
Personally I would rather know all the problems and then attempt to attach a risk/cost factor. Mike Focke is really good at that.
https://sites.google.com/site/mikefo...engineblows%3F
Many of the solutions are simple/inexpensive ,so should be welcomed by our entire community - for example choosing the best engine oil and ,the subject of this thread -rod bolts. If you compare the stock Porsche rod bolt with the ARP replacement you will understand. The ARP bolt is about the same price retail as the OEM part.
http://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-det...?RecordID=1203
The Oem part is merely a poorly chosen generic item by comparison.
Who knew some new Iwis timing chains snap and the Renold chain is better in those situations ? Jake is the only source I know who mentioned this. So for my build, I am trying to replace the IWIS chains I already bought. Thanks Jake. Better now than when one snaps on a newly rebuilt engine.
I applaud any warnings and photos about rod bolt failure so it can be addressed. How is that scaremongering ?
For those fearing what happens to the 'value' of their 996 because of an open discussion of the M96 issues -I suggest that the ostrich approach will be far worse. If people like me with the time,skills(??), funds and resources to repair the engine fail because of lack of basic machining specifications or knowledge of defective new replacement parts- it will have a much greater negative impact on resale values. Those of us who are 'rebuilding' these engines for our own cars are often spending more than the 'roller' value of the car in parts and machining,spending huge amounts of time researching and wrenching.If after all this the rebuild fails for want of a little shared technical information, it is a sad day for any Porsche enthusiast and particularly this great Forum. We'll just abandon Porsche ,choose a competitor brand and share our experience in a new home. And that will be what really torpedoes the value of any M96/7 car.
It is the independent developers like LN & Raby who
actually fix
the M96/7 problems -not the peanutters,nor Porsche.I suggest LN & Raby are deserving of our
full and enthusiastic support
.By sniping at Raby ,you do him no harm .You just hit the rest of the M96 owners in the cross-fire.
So please join in helping find solutions to all the M96/7 problems.Please don't shoot the messengers.
I have found the best protection against nightmares is to sleep on a giant pile of cash. Fixes almost all problems.
Now, acquiring said giant pile of cash, that keeps me up nights.
Well - any motor can fail, these just seem to fail at a higher rate than you might expect. For those of us getting into the 996 recently, that helped us out on the front end in valuation. If something happens to mine I would look for a used motor or do a LS conversion or sell the car as a roller, or even part it out maybe. It wouldn't be the end of the world.
Meanwhile I will maintain mine like I do all of my vehicles and enjoy it while I've got it.
Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations
Not a chance in hell! Talk to your peers about that one, they are the ones that call the truth "fear mongering". The best way to make everyone happy was to toss the info. This one decision has held the book up for about a year.
Jake it just doesn't make sense to try to "make everybody happy" it will never happen. I"m trying to find out the name of the company that does your garbage pick up so I can bribe the driver to save the info from the can! Seriously I agree with what SCHNELL GELB said in his post 100%.
I find just driving the damn car and enjoying it is the best remedy to all such worries.
What will be will be and stressing about it before hand rather defeats the purpose in having such a car in the first place.
It does suck if your number comes up unlucky though and I feel for Cuda and all others that have lost a motor through no fault of their own.
While you have very valid points and I agree to some extent on most of them, the conundrum I see here is business mixing with enthusiast sites. Generally most the enthusiast sites I go to have individual contributors freely discussing and sharing knowledge for the greater good of the hobby to further it's advancements and understanding. Obviously when you throw a business into a mix, it really doesn't mix. And hence that is one of the issues or flaws I see with this. Yes it's true that Jake has contributed great amounts of info on the m96 motors and he has every right to share or not share key pieces of info as he's put in the time and his own dollars.
I think the reason why we don't have the dynamics here on this forum from individuals like other forums is based on the cost of motors, special tools and parts which the avg person simply can't experiment as easily as other platforms. The other factor is demgraphically, the 911 owners have generally been hands off and non-diy, although we are slowly starting to see a change. But once again, the same individuals wanting to do more hardcore stuff to their engines lacks either the r&d dollars/resources and factory backing in terms of published specs/documentation to even start anywhere that makes sense. Couple that to the fact that people that come on here are the 2%ers that actually have issues with their cars. The rest have no inclination or motivation to learn about technical things about these cars but would rather be just driving them and are doing just that.
I personally know a Gold certified Porsche tech that's been a master tech for 30 years. Based on our candid conversations, it doesn't seem like Porsche offers their service techs the in depth training you get from other manufacturers. Once again leading to part of the problem of where we're at today.
As stated before, this isn't a magical engine nor rocket science and there are quite a few capable mechanics out there. Some indy Porsche mechanics choose the more bricks and mortars approach and do not really get involved with the internet as much. I can't blame them as it probably took alot of trial and error on their parts to extract info of what they've found and why would they share it to only have it conflict with their business?
All these factors basically prevent the progress of the enthusiast from getting anywhere unfortunately.
I wonder if the Chevy enthusiast crowd in Germany have a LSX god over there... hmmm....
Either way I know the Germans have to be laughing at us and this forum. Come to think of it, I don't ever recall an enthusiast from Germany being a member here and asking some engine related question.
Anywho that's the way I see it.
OK, based on my Failure Mode Effect Analysis thinking, we know what the failure effect was, and we also know the failure mode - have a hunch. But the big question is: What was the root cause? We trust and assume that you've maintained your car well. And we know about shotty rod bolt decision by Mr. Porsche himself. But what else can we learn from this? For instance, what is your driving style? How many times in the last year have you entered the red zone on the tach? Did you do anything unusual that instant resulting in high load to the engine?
How about we save the mental calisthenics and Cuda inquisition for sometime down the road. The guy has a busted Porsche to deal with - I don't think he also needs a bunch of keyboard jockeys second-guessing his driving style and maintenance habits to cook up some half-cocked theory about a new-and-improved 996/M96 "weakness."
I hope you're not theorizing that driving a 996 aggressively could result in failure - after all, "driving it like the Dr. intended" is the lunatic advice offered freely around here, suggesting that if you just rag your 996 out a bit more, it will last forever. In fact, we have learned that high-mileage 996's are the really desirable ones, whereas a low-mileage example should be avoided at all cost.
Cuda, do you have a count of how many times you entered "the red zone" during the past year? When I first read that, I thought it was a far too personal question involving menses, but I see now that I was mistaken.
Agreed.
Let's focus on fixes for all 30 modes of failure particularly the 26 that were dumped from Jake's book. We've probably all figured out the IMSB issues and solutions ,so it is on to the rest. Plenty of 'meat' there to discuss. Some of the issues can be deduced from the upgrade parts offered by LN - for example the drive shaft for the oil pump, pinning the sprocket on the Ims.
Others?
That way Cuda only pays once to fix his M96.
I can't believe the turn this thread took. From I blew my motor to let's gang up on Flat6. Really guys? Everyone is an arm chair mechanic until it happens to you and soon find your nuts just disappeared and are sitting below your throat. Trust me I've been there. Now we get the post that is looking to blame Mike for this.
Anywho...carry on
Ehem, here is one enthusiast from Germany. Most of us Germans don't ask engine related questions because we deal with facts when they are there and don't fret what-ifs. Again, if you don't like beer don't go to the Oktoberfest, alter.
Regarding Jack Raby: he is a well respected businessman and Porsche expert in Germany. His approach is a mix of science and experience. I wish never to need his services but if I should ever need them I will go to him or people of his caliber. As we say, Hals und Beinbruch!
Sure - go for it - but how about doing it in your own thread, so Cuda can use this one for whatever he wants to share about the status of his car...
I don't know if Sneaky Pete was referring to me - but if so, I have absolutely no issues with Raby (other than I wish he hadn't axed the "failure" content from the book, but I can understand why). Jake certainly doesn't fall into the armchair quarterback category - but damned if there aren't plenty of them around. In fact, being willing to entertain a trade as payment is pretty damn cool.
I agree completely. I have some awesome video of me going upside down in my 99. Exactly 3 people have ever seen it. Me, my wife and my absolute best friend in the world. Every now and then I think about putting it on YouTube and sharing it. I don't because I don't need a bunch of people telling me how I f*cked up. I know exactly what went wrong.
I can only imagine the rage I would be consumed by if my engine blew itself to pieces and people wanted to talk about what I did wrong.
No reference at all. When threads like this pop up the criticism for a guy who is willing to help come out of nowhere. Like I said a while ago you may hate him but he is your best friend when you need him.
Schnell, I completely understand your point. My only interest was from a scientific standpoint. I had no intension of playing the blame game. That's just not my way. ... I cracked up at your comment on the "red zone".
Ah, I don't mind the question, I think it's fair enough in this thread.
In fact, just today I was speaking about that with a guy who was on the tour on Sunday... the same guy that took off, leaving me stranded (thanks Javier. See why I didn't pick up the hamburger tab today?). I was mentioning to him that I was pondering whether something I did caused the failure.
It's a tip, so impossible to over-rev. My driving style depends on where I'm going. I use it as a DD {Edit: I USED it as a DD, still not using past tense}. So, when I'm traveling around the county visiting clients, I usually have on talk radio, and drink my coffee. On drives like this weekend, I'm generally in the more "spirited" group.
In terms of maintenance... if I go more than 3,000 miles between oil changes, I start to break out in a cold sweat. About 1.5 to 2 years ago, I had the engine and tranny pulled and spent about 8K replacing anything I thought might be a wear item. So, this car has been, I believe, extremely well maintained. I realized today that I could have leased a new 991 for the past two years for less $$.
The roads this weekend had many sharp turns up and down hills and canyons. Mostly second and third gear stuff, but very fast. However, I have been on many such canyon runs.
Now, when the engine went kablooey, I was driving very slowly, since we had stopped to try and figure out where in the world we were. But, prior to that, was shifting a lot between second and third... dropping down to second just before the corners, hard accelerating out, then up to third, before it was time to drop back to second for the next corner.
I believe these car were built for this type of driving.... certainly no more abusive than an autocross. Except an autocross totals maybe 10 miles, and we went about 115 miles.
It's pretty much the same style as everyone else was doing, even the guy in the C7 'vette.
So, if I'm supposed to drive a 996 the way my grampa drove his big old Ford LTD, please let me know.
Additional comments:
1. The same as I asked in in my recent Fabspeed thread, please don't use my threads to bash any vendor. JR certainly knows vastly more about m96 motors than I could aspire to learn in a lifetime. When his book comes out, I'll be one of the first to buy it. When we were at the side of the road on Sunday, I was pondering whether this was Failure Mode #17 or #23.
Sure, some people disagree with him on some issues. That's what forums are for. But, please keep that stuff to a different thread. Jake has contacted me and given some preliminary info. He's a valuable asset to the 996 community.
2. Insurance company sent out a guy today to look at the car. He says he used to be a mechanic, but he seemed to know very little about engines. He did, however, know that the damaged was caused from something internal, not external (I tried, at least, to convice him that maybe a rock punctured the case, but he didn't buy it). Interestingly, he valued my car at just over $25K (that's the value they would have given me if the car had been covered and written off as a total loss).
3. Thanks to several of you, I have a lead on what appears to be a good replacement motor. I spoke to the guy today, and will be following up later this week. Not sure if that will pan out, but so far is sounding good. So, feeling a bit better than I have since Sunday morning.
4. Hey: How did you guys like the fact that I had the presence of mind when the car broke down to take pix to post here? I even told the tow truck driver that at least I had the makings of a good new Rennlist thread.
Here's a little section of the road, from a Google earth image:
.
Thanks for not being offended. The reality is that I drive the same way when I'm not using the car for errands. So, it is really really unfortunate. I wish you the best. Looking at the images I must say you must have had a lot of fun. I want to do the same and hope for the best. I definitely don't think anyone should drive these like driving Miss Daisey.
Well I am a Kraut and enthusiast, so I assume I count?
Fact is Cuda has a pretty serious issue which is a bummer.
I think the facts are already out there, and until we see the engine stripped down, the root cause is just speculation, although speculation with some weight of experience courtesy of Jake behind it (which is worth probably more than anyone else's opinion on this board).
Cuda, I hope you get this sorted to your satisfaction, with minimum financial impact and downtime. Let me know if you need to drown your sorrows with a stranger, I am in Huntington Beach and always up for a beer.
K
Best of luck, Cuda 911. You certainly have shown a level head and a great sense of humor about something that would send many people off the deep end. I hope whatever path you choose works out for you.
Cuda: I think in your situation, I'd be considering the used market, too. Best of luck in whatever you decide. Here's an example of potential opportunities out there that come up occasionally:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-996-...47fb9f&vxp=mtr
Partially echoing what DrBrain was saying,
things break
- sometimes in spite of all reasonable precautions or apparent logic. I went recently for an inspection at the T�V (well actually DEKRA) and there was an assortment of disasters there including a recently out-of-warranty high end Mercedes with a rod through the block. My father in law's meticulously maintained late model BMW 3 series inexplicably completely ate a chain guide on start up.
Let me add my best wishes for a great resolution and that you'll be back on the road soon. Wir dr�cken Dir die Daumen!
Cuda - been following this thread and I am really sorry to hear it. I know that gut feeling as I lost an engine in my C4S about 18 months ago and that initial disbelief followed with the what the heck will I do now hit hard. Although I had money in savings I had lost my job less than two months before and raiding my savings to the tune of $24k was not going to be an option. But I was really struggling with the thought of just letting the car go; which would have been the rational thing to do, but I am known for the irrational.
Although Porsche seemed satisfied to accept it as an IMSB failure, I personally suspected a rod. The engine ran for some gentle miles with what sounded to me like a rod knock, never lost a drop of oil, and the sound of marbles in a coffee can was noticeably absent. But hey, in the end Porsche provided the engine as good will (different story) and my cost for labor was more like $2,200 - so zero interest credit card came into play.
I follow your posts and know you are a true enthusiast and would assume that if anything you over maintained your ride. I live by the maximum 5k mile oil change interval, stick to all of the operating tricks like never letting the car idle to warm up, no short runs, lively driving yet avoiding the rev limiter and spending stupid money on stuff that isn't yet broken. Yet of my cars have experienced mechanical failures at times, it is what it is.
I think it is basic human nature for many of us to first want to believe that we somehow did something wrong, the illusion of control has us believing that we could have, or should have control over all outcomes. So it makes sense to me that folks will be inclined to ask questions in the hopes that they can learn what they "shouldn't" do.
Yet with some humility we can accept the simple truth that stuff just happens, sometimes good, sometimes bad, and we had absolutely no influence over the outcome.
I am dealing with a terminally ill wife who has lived a very careful and well balanced life, I think that in the 30 years we've known each other, she had 1/2 of a beer, and that was on our wedding night a little over 26 years ago, never put an illegal substance in her body and was typically reluctant to even take a Tylenol for a headache. Me on the other hand, well let's just say I entered the "red zone" far more often than the human machine should be able to tolerate, yet here I am.
I sincerely wish you luck in getting hooked up with a decent replacement engine at a cost that will allow you to continue enjoying your 996.
And I am impressed with the level of support this community continues to offer.
Best Regards,
John
You probably already know this and don't need me saying this but I don't think you did anything wrong in how you drove the car, maintained it, etc.
A Tip is generally easier on the car and the engine anyhow so other than not driving the car at all I don't see what you could have done to avoid this rod bolt failure assuming that is what it is and it probably is.
I wonder about the owner who drove his '98 Boxster IIRC over 200K miles and tracked it frequently and had a rod bolt fail. And I wonder about those owners who have covered as many or more miles than you and haven't had any rod bolt failures.
Thus I think it was just a fluke. A bad bolt with probably some tiny inclusion in it that eventually developed into a stress fracture and failure.
The used engine sounds like the best path to follow. Factory engines are just too expensive for most of us. A rebuild is just too expensive again for most of us.
Try to get some kind of "warranty" or some kind of if only short lived "money back guarantee" on that used engine so if the engine proves to be bad out of the shipping crate you can at least exchange it or even get your money back. And enlist someone who can evaluate the engine so you are less likely to get a bum engine if you select the engine yourself.
BTW, I was going to offer that if that 914 was nice maybe you should keep it and sell the 996 and use the money to put into the 914. The 914 being a nice car, and getting a bit scarce, a simpler car and easier to maintain and repair. I sometimes reflect back that maybe I should have picked up that very nice 993 (in speed yellow no less) with very low miles for around $40K I found in the Sacramento area rather than buying a new Cayman S or after that got smashed buying a used 03 Turbo.
Whatever, dude. You're always going the wrong way, that's what I thought was happening. Do feel bad I didn't think something was wrong.
No way you did anything to the car. You weren't pushing it that much. Just bad engine.
See, I'm not the only one who thinks making the 914 a bad *** car would be cool! ;-)
Silotwo/John,
Why not let the engine idle to warm up?
Personal experience with my 40th /60k miles is to do this upon first drive of the day, especially if less than 70 degrees out.
Paul
Read operating instructions in your manual. Why would you drive off with a warm engine and cold tranny plus other fluids? All parts of your car should warm up together accordingly.
Because the aim is to get the oil up to temperature as quickly as possible, without stressing the engine unduly (because of potential lubrication problems with thick cold oil). Idling does not meet the "as quick as possible" parameter. Typically you should run the engine in the 2000-3500 rpm range under light loads to achieve this goal.
As an owner of a 03 Boxster, I'm interested of to know of all other procedures to keep these engines healthy. I was under the impression that after car was warm it was good to redline it every now and then... true?
Dang it! You've ruined my plans. Thought maybe I could pluck a motor while no one was looking.
Hey - I SCORED AN ENGINE!!!!
And, I don't mean the internal scoring type of scoring. Plenty of time to do that later. My plan is to work through each of the various failure modes.
Here's the poop: Several of you let me know about one listed here on RL, so I spoke with the seller. The engine is from same model and year as mine, 2003 C2. Very well maintained, by a Porsche enthusiast and PCA member.
Earlier this year, he was in a minor fender-bender where he was tapped from behind on the freeway. As he was at the side of the road exchanging info with another driver, a truck came by and side-swiped his car, totaling it.
The engine was not damaged. In fact, he has videos posted of the car running... it still runs fine, even though the body is pretty well destroyed.
57,000 miles are on the motor, and IMSB was replaced at 41,000 miles. He send me the receipt to verify this work.
The car is at his mechanic's shop, but his mechanic is in the hospital. So, he's arranging to get the car sent to another mechanic to get the motor out, crated and shipped to me.
I'll keep you all posted. So, sounds like I'm going to be stuck hanging around with all you jerks in the 996 forums, after all.
Ummm... Jake, c'mon....I didn't think that was very cool of you to post right after me in the seller's thread, offering to buy the motor. I was already in the process of discussing pricing with the seller, and I think he would have lowered the price more had you not essentially started a bidding war. You are able to pass on any increased cost to your customer. I am not.
It is until the time it isn't.
Really I would not be worried about taking the engine up to redline. My 2002 Boxster has over 287K miles on it and I still take the engine to redline -- once fully warmed up - once in a while. I have done this upon occasion ever since the engine came out of "break in".
Besides the engine experiences some pretty good loads at lower RPMs that if a rod bolt (for instance) was going to let go it could just as easily let go then as at redline. IIRC in the case of Cuda911's engine he was no where near redline when what is believed to be the rod bolt failed.
About all I can suggest you do is show the engine/the car a bit of mechanical empathy and take it easy until the engine is warmed up, completely warmed up (and like to run the engine pretty easy for 10 or 15 minutes *after* the coolant temperature gage needle reaches its "warm" position because these engines take a while to fully warm up), give the engine some cool down time before shutting it off. Run an approved (natch) oil of the the viscosity that is appropriate for where you live and drive and change this oil and filter at reasonable intervals. Do the other fluids at reasonable intervals, the plugs, filters, etc. at their scheduled times/miles, and take care of little things before they turn into big things. Avoid accidents. Enjoy the car.
If you feel the car has to be locked away in the garage while you cower under the bed for fear something bad will happen then the car is not for you and you should do yourself a favor and get rid of the car and replace it with one you do not live in fear of.
I mean we all love our Porsches, that is a given, and we all want them to last and be trouble free without having to rebuild the damn thing every other drive, but we have to be able to get in the car without twisting the old guts into knots from worry.
While I love my two cars if it ever comes to the point I'm afraid to drive them for fear of an engine going boom I'll sell them ASAP and buy another car I do not live in fear of. There are number of cars out there. While I need a car I do not necessarily need a Porsche.
Congrats from all of us "jerks" on here.
Wow, that didn't take that long...
I think there was more time and effort put into all these usual RL posts on everything and anything
except
what you should do next. Talk about thread contamination...
^^^^ Indeed. I'm pretty stoked about it. The seller is a very upstanding guy, so I do not anticipate any nasty surprises.
This will be very expensive, but at least not catastrophic. Besides, I rather like Ramen noodles.
Fantastic!! I remember that story. What a great find! That last comment..hmm. I hope his was just messing with you as that engine has been for sale for a little while now.
Happy for you!
That is one check you can cross off the list. Now get it swapped and you might be able to recoup a little by selling some bits and pieces off the old motor like the heads, harness, fuel lines....
Wow! At least he should have PMed. Maybe he is not happy about not getting his hands on your 914 cheap so you are paying one way or another.
This is no longer a enthusiast forum. It is a medium where people can easily profit from our hobby. Sad..
What a bummer!! Glad you found a new motor for your baby, Mike. Can't wait to see her back up and running! On the bright side, Ramen Noodles with Egg isn't so bad... Good luck with the fix! Hope it doesn't give you too much trouble.
Yeah, I was a bit stunned when I saw JR's offer to buy the engine posted last night. I bet that post of his took $1,500 out of my pocket.
Well, anyway, I'll keep everyone informed as this progresses.
Pete, any idea if there is much of a market for that stuff? I wonder if one of the dismantling companies will buy the blown motor.
See? Not all of my threads are boring drivel.
You should be able to sell the heads to someone that has suffered from intermix. As for selling the whole motor as is to a salvage place that might be the way to go if you don't want to get into taking it apart. Not sure what amount of money it would bring.
Macster, thanks for response. Threads like these make me think twice about driving the car hard. Glad it's my wife's and I'm not tempted to hammer on it all the time.
Niche, here's a recent direct quote from Charles Navarro, L&N Engineering, on this subject:
"
The larger bearing Porsche went to increased the ball speed, reducing street failures, but increasing track failures. Furthermore, ball bearings like RPM - it has been seen time and time again that cars driven like they were stolen (or at high speeds in Germany) have less IMS failures do to higher engine RPMs.
"
You need to take the old engine apart for the fun of it. Then make art or furniture out of it. A flat 6 coffee table? Cool. A Porsche head lamp? Awesome.
That is great Mike, glad you will be back up and hitting the back roads with the club again soon.
I saw that post as well and thought it was a bit uncool. Karma can be a bitch
Glad I'm not the only one that thought it was a total dick move by JR. Nothing like kicking a guy while he is down.
Been following this thread, glad it worked out for the best... Well second best, assuming the bazooka Joe doesn't hold.
Didn't mean too� I had left my browser open for a while in reply mode and had no idea that you had posted till after I had.
But, thats fine and I am glad that you got it.. Now, I need your broken one!
Cuda - first off CONGRATS! Love it when things just seem to come together and in short order to boot.
Operating manual is clear about warm up procedure. The other interesting read is a on oil consumption. I don't have the manual in front of me at the moment so this is a bit of a paraphrase. Cars that are not driven to full operating temperature accumulate moisture (water) in the oil. So while your reading may be full at the start of drive, when driven to full operating temperature, depending upon length of the drive, the moisture will dissipate and your finish reading could show up to 1 quart of consumption. This is not oil consumption but dissipation of the moisture. (Wish I had the manual in front of me so I could provide a precise quote - but these days I am lucky to know where I am)
When I read that I recalled the Porsche mechanic who did the PPI on the C4S. His assumption was that moisture was a major cause of engine failure on these cars, and yes he did mention the IMSB. Although the car I was purchasing was meticulously maintained, it was low mileage for the years. His concern wasn't low mileage, but the potential that the car was a "short trip" car. And yup - this is the same car that now has a Porsche crate motor in it. (And it runs fantastically well)
Cuda - looking forward to following your engine swap.
While true that moisture can be present in the oil, a quart? If you have a quart of water in your oil, I'm thinking the problems go deeper than failing to warm the car up...
I agree, 10% water in oil will produce similar mix to a damaged head gasket. If you don't believe it, take a quart of oil, and add 100ml of water in a blender....
Ah, OK, thanks Jake. No worries. I'll buy you a beer.
I'll shoot you an email regarding the blown motor.
***************************************
Just got home from this month's PCA board meeting. A super long one, half by the outgoing 2014 board members, half by the incoming 2015 board members.
**************************************
Tomorrow I'll get the car towed home from the shop where it's at now, and hang onto it until the replacement motor shows up. A different shop will be doing the replacement for me.
I hope to attend the open heart surgery, and get to the bottom of this motor failure. It will be one more piece of data for the 996 community to chew over.
If you look at the chunk that got blown out, it has odd markings on it. Someone early in the thread said they thought it was from something that was threaded. When I was out at the side of the road waiting for the tow truck, I was studying it, and just couldn't figure out why it had that pattern. Now, of course, it's obvious that the markings are from the chain slapping it.
I plan to tear down enough of the motor to at least find out what failed... is it really a rod bolt that was thrown by the chain, etc.
Seems to me that the chain had to have lost tension. But, what if the bolt piece gout under the chain, lifting it in this precise area. That would certainly cause the chain to hit the case wall and make this pattern.
Note the pattern on the chunk:
.
My first and only UOA of my Boxster's oil turned up 7% water content.
The engine didn't have any antifreeze compounds in the oil. The water was there due to the cold temperatures -- I bought the car in January of 2002 and the UOA was done sometime in March -- and even though I did some long drives. The cold just keeps these engines from getting warm enough to boil the water out of the oil.
It was this UOA that convinced me to change the oil in the Boxster every 5K miles rather than the 15K miles the manual called for.
So here is is almost 13 years later and the engine now has over 287K miles on it and that 7% water apparently didn't do any harm, but I have to wonder what the outcome would have been had I followed that 15K mile oil change interval given how the engine collected water.
Glad you found a new engine!
The original engine held up for 120K miles & 11 years of high performance use, and after catastrophic failure of the engine (one of 8,279 failure modes?) you sourced a quality replacement engine for ~$10K in a few days.
Still have tons of faith in the value these cars...
I replaced plastic chain guides in my M96 motor when R&Ring it at 100K miles. They were worn.
The 3.4L ran 5 chains vs 3 chains in the 3.6L. Maybe the plastic chain guides suffered a failure?
This story shakes my faith... When a well maintained car goes down being used as intended at 120k, that is pretty poor. Having to buy another flawed engine for $10k to get your $20k car running or sell it as a $5k roller. Those being the least painful routes???
As a shopper, that kind of repair changes my perspective a little. Could I swallow such a repair, I suppose, I sure wouldn't want to though. The right thing to do is a Raby rebuild but that again changes the investment in the car, making a 997.2 an attractive option.
So is it still an attractive car at $30-35k or, well into 996TT territory if your C4S goes down? Maybe lessen the risk and buy a warranty, probably not an option for higher mile cars but probably less than half the cost of this used motor experience? Just rambling now, considering my options as a 996 buyer...
OP
Anyway, good to hear a resolution has been found, stinks it is going to cost you so dearly but maybe it will be a bit of a rebirth too. Hope you get back to enjoying the car soon.
After 100k miles I would expect that they were worn 😉, but could they have gone another 50-100k miles? I'm almost at 100k in my '04 C4S and am contemplating if I should get them changed.
As for the marks on the piece that broke off, I wonder if that was from the rod bolt when it fell into the chain and then spun around on the chain and slammed into the engine housing causing it to break off. After all, the force required to break that housing would likely leave a mark...just saying.
Exactly. We're not comparing apples to apples here with Hondas. How many other exotic Marques go past 100k let alone even remotely close to it?
I'm glad all the pansies on here don't own Ferrari's.
Depends entirely on how you define "value". If you are referring to the market value of this model, it is what it is, and it ain't particularly high, in absolute terms. If you are a seller, that's bad but, if you are a buyer, it's good.
If you are referring to the (necessarily subjective) quality and quantity of the driving experience that can be purchased per dollar, then I agree with you that the car is basically a steal these days. And I say that as someone who is giving out 3.6 pistons as Christmas gifts this year. They make nice ashtrays.
I love my Porsche, but it's not a rare classic. I have a different perspective on what I would do in this situation.
The only reason I would put a used motor (even with an LN bearing) into my car would be if I could then turn right around and re-sell it for less of a hit than if I sold it as a roller. For example, by putting a $13K engine ($10K plus $3K labor to install it), then selling the car for $20K would leave me $7K, which is $2K more than I could get for it as a roller. So I would do it.
But if I planned on keeping the car I would want that used engine torn down and remanufactured, replacing any worn components (or those known to fail prematurely) with better-engineered aftermarket parts, to minimize the chances of having another blown engine on my hands. And I would not do that on a 996 with 120K on the chassis worth $20K, unless I had good reason to speculate it would someday appreciate the way the air-cooled cars have done. And I don't see that happening any time soon, if ever.
The difference being that Porsche markets their 911s as the "Everyday Porsche". Home Depot runs, pick up the kids at school, etc - I remember the commercials. Not exactly the same as a Ferrari.
Wow, this thread has had more twists and turns than the road that destroyed Cuda's engine. All the input and suggestions have been great and looks like he may repair his 996.
Just keep in mind that the replacement price for the used engine is just the beginning. BEFORE you install it, I would address every common known issue. The most depressing aspect of this entire decision is to keep putting money into a depreciating asset.
For instance if the replacement engine's initial costs is $10,000 there is still the potential costs of needed PM for this engine to prevent its own destruction or you'll be right back where you were. It is very possible you could end up putting $12,000 to $15,000 (depending on how much you DIY) into a vehicle that will still be only worth $20,000 or less even if repaired.
The same old argument every time a higher mileage 996 has a CEF. Logic would seem to dictate sell the car as a loss, wash your hands of the M96NA and move to a TT but that's your decision of course.
I certainly do not envy the position you are in to make such a decision and wish you the best in however you proceed. These threads only cement what Imre stated long ago. That the 996 NA will become a relic only bought and used by a competent DIY'er.
Krazy, that comment adds zero value to this thread. I understand that you have an uncontrollable urge to talk **** about the 996, but damn, it's getting old. At least when you owned a 996, some of your posts were helpful. Now that you've successfully unloaded the object of your hatred on some poor rube, it seems like your contribution is now limited to inserting your collection of three-letter acronyms (most notably CEF) into every thread you can. You've become the Magic Johnson of Rennlist, sticking your poisonous opinion into every thread you can find.
Regardless of how many times you disassembled and reassembled your 996, it's fair to say that you spent your entire ownership period in fear of your car - beginning with the day you found a 996 and agonized whether it would be safe to drive home. That's fine - it's your prerogative to feel however you want to feel about a car that you clearly never should have purchased. However, the simple fact is that many of us actually LIKE the 996. We find them enjoyable to drive. I've driven a respectable number of cars, and I like my 996 the most. If something happens to my 996 and I'm financially able, I'll absolutely fix it.
We're all grown ups here. We understand depreciation. Cuda understands that a replacement engine has just as much a chance of failure as any other engine. Unlike you, however, we actually derive more pleasure from operating our vehicles than we do (a) taking them apart for no reason, and (b) wringing our hands about things that may go wrong. I've put thousands of dollars of repairs and upgrades into my 1996 Corvette. My C4 has the original LT-1 engine and (gasp!) an automatic transmission, further reducing the collectiblity of a not-especially-collectible Corvette. Point is, I don't care. If I blow up my 'Vette during an autocross, I'm going to fix it. I love the car because I find it unique - it offers some driving experience that I don't get in other cars. Such is the case with my 996 as well - it's an awesome mix of high-tech engineering with a minimal amount of high-tech intrusion into the driving experience. I love the feedback. I love the way it looks. I thoroughly enjoy the fact that I drive a car that 9-year-old me would have found freaking amazing.
Please, just for once, give it a f*****g rest.
Why don't you go type up all of your anti-M96 rhetoric in a new post and try to get it stickied? At least that way you could keep all of the vitriol in one place instead of smearing it all over every thread you come across.
And you believe that?
Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should. With that said, I've done both picking up my kids and hauling bags of dirt in my frunk.
I guess different strokes for different folks though when it comes to extremes...
Cuda, so sorry to hear of your misfortune. I am familiar with the area; have visited Fallbrook many times over the last few decades. Beautiful roads and scenery, but have never been there with a Porsche.
This story has so many twists and turns it has the makings of a Hollywood thriller, even with a happy ending for everyone involved. Amazing.
When Flat6 repaired my engine earlier this year, Jake recommended a few reliability enhancements that I decided to do including billet rods which eliminate the stock rod bolt failure mechanism(s). TBD whether that was in fact your engine's primary failure cause.
All the best and hope it works out in everyone's favor. Please keep us updated.
What other reasonably priced performance car does better? Do you think a 100K+ mile Z06, M3, or STi doesn't have an equally good probability of eating a $10K service bill? How much would it cost if you holed a 993 case, not to mention the ridiculous asking prices these days?? A new $30K 'sporty' turbo car might have a warranty, unless you 'tune' it a bit too much and throw a piston.
All
cars are holes in the pavement you shovel money into... Sports cars just particularly so. First year depreciation on a new car is typically about 19%, while 996's have remained virtually flat for the past year.
Sure, one might argue that aircooled cars aren't depreciating, in fact they are appreciating, but that needs to be looked at as a speculative investment, not a sports car. The 911SC I sold about 2 years ago is now worth about 50% more than when I sold it. But Apple stock is up 60% over that same period, and Tesla is up 600%. Those are
all
speculative investments....
Again, I maintain that despite the 9,542,861 failure modes of the 996, you'd be hard pressed to find a true sports car that has a risk/reward ratio even close to the 996's (though the Cayman is pretty damn close!)
Before deciding to go with this used motor, I considered many factors as to what I should do with my car:
1. Buy new motor - conclusion: too expensive.
2. Raby repair or reconstruction - conclusion: Repair not possible due to high mileage (per their internal policy). Reconstruction more than I want to spend and longer than I want to wait.
3. Try and find replacement broken case half, and rebuild. Was still considering this option. However, it has many inherent unknowns, since no idea what other internal damage may be present.
4. Sell car as a roller - conclusion: frankly, I figured this was going to be the avenue I was going to follow. Figured I'd get maybe 5K for it.
5. Buy a used motor - Initially, I wasn't planning this route, since a used motor is still expensive and has no guarantee. But, the motor I am buying has a good documented history. So, I think is worth the risk.
The other big factor I had to consider was: "what next?" After my first few days of 996 ownership, I recall thinking to myself, I just "need" to forever own a 911 (of any of its variants). Other than the potential engine failure issues, no one can argue that the 996 isn't an absolutely incredible car on every level.
So, my "what now?" options list included:
1. Buy another 996: OK, so, I could spend 20K +/- 5k and be back in 1 996. But, I would also have to budget another at least 5K to fix/replace stuff that I would feel needed fixing/replacing.
2. Buy a 997: The 997.1's are pretty reasonably priced now, but I really feel that if I am going to get a 997, I should get a 997.2. They are still rather expensive, so I would probably want to finance a good chunk of it, to avoid biting too much into emergency cash supply. But, with needing to get middle daughter a new car, and with two kid's worth of college tuition bills and third one starting college in a couple years, I'm loath to take on another longish-term financial obligation.
3. Get an older air-cooled - Actually, I had pretty much decided that this was the route I was going to go. At Cars & Coffee last weekend, a guy was selling an immaculate mid-80s 911 for about 25k. I don't know the guy and have no contact info., so I was planning to go back to C&C next month and see if he was there.
Then, we get to the "intangibles": I love my 996. The first time I sat in it when it was on the dealer's lot, it felt perfect. By the time I had driven it the 50 miles home, it didn't feel like some strange new car, it felt like it was built just for me. I love the blue exterior and the gray interior. I love the tip, because the way I use the car it makes it fit perfectly into my life style. When I'm driving around unfamiliar places looking for client's businesses, it's a PITA to try and decipher the Google Maps directions. The tip makes it 1,000 time easier when I can just slide it into "D" mode and then pay attention to finding my route. Sure, I'm in the minority wanting a tip, but it works for me. If I just had it for a "fun" car, then of course, I would prefer a manual.
So, how many Porsche owners (or ANY car enthusiasts, for that matter), have put more $$ into a car than the car was worth? I imagine I would see an awful lot of raised hands out there. Well, that shows how important the "intangible" factor of the equation is. The big intangible I am dealing with here is that I want "my" car back.
Once I put the new motor in, since it still will have all 627 inherent failure modes, can I eventually be back in this same position? Sure. I'm a science geek sort, big into facts, numbers, and stats. So, it seems to me that the odds of experiencing two catastrophic motor failures is small.
Is the decision I made to put in the used motor the "correct" one? Based on my musings posted above, I believe it is the correct one for me.
One can believe whatever one wants to believe. However, Porsche wants you to believe their 911 is an "Everyday Porsche" and they market it as such. People are then disillusioned when their car lets them down because it didn't live up to the advertisements. Shame on Porsche for failing its customers.
How many people here would not hesitate to plow $5K into a vet bill for their favorite pet? You don't see this as a wasted investment into a non-appreciating asset, you see it as an opportunity to extend the time you get to spend with something that, in one way or another, makes your life better.
You'd need to be a cold-hearted SOB to say, "No, just give Max the needle, he's not worth fixing." Right or wrong, rational or irrational, some of us feel the same way about our cars.
Yes, unlike a kitten, I imagine if you came across a 911 in a parking lot and decided to "adopt" it, there might be repercussions.
If you find this NOT to be the case, let me know. There are a few other cars I'd like to "re-home."
In this 16 page thread? You cant be serious.
I think you misunderstood the post. Every bit of it was fact. It is a very bad thing to happen to any 996 owner. If I were closer, I would offer to help him MOF proof and then install the replacement engine. These cars are interesting to work on and a challenge for those used to American iron and diesels. In fact, I couldn't have resisted taking the "blown" engine apart. Cuda could at least pull the sump cover for us.
Schnell, think more positive Bro!
And Cuda, not to start a new twist on the thread but did you say which oil you were using, change interval, and if you have ever seen the black or beige guide bits in dissected filter? Please forgive me if it was somewhere in the 235 thread replies.
Ah, I get your angle. Yes I agree.
The commercial indicated I could fit 3 bags of dirt easily and I could only fit two. I felt really disappointed after that and went back to using my SUV to haul dirt from that point onward.
Oh, I am positive. I'm POSITIVE that your "CEF" and "MOF" bulls**t is getting very, very old.
This message is hidden because KrazyK is on your ignore list.
I waited far too long to do this...
Bang-bloody on, Herr 5CHN3LL!
With these 911s, it is all about 'irrational intangibles' once you enjoy them, which is very easy to do, at depreciated purchase price to boot.
I vote we (SoCal folks and nearby) schedule a BBQ in Cuda's house...a sign of solidarity to buoy his spirits and maybe even help him dismantle/dismember/untangle his engine
16 pages over a single blown engine. Wow. People say these cars can't be used every day but I drive the **** out of mine every day. So I guess I am going to find out.
Failures happen. Sorry it happened to you Cuda. Very glad to hear you found a new engine. My guess is that you will have good luck with it, lightening rarely strikes the same person twice.
I'm always up for inviting myself over to someone else's house to take his **** apart...I guess the question is, do we wait for his permission, or just show up with charcoal and wrenches?
Schnell, you might be on to something there. We could have a sticky where anyone could bash the crap out of the 996 in one huge thread and get it out of their system. All posts welcome. In fact, that's a great idea! It would eliminate the bashing spread all over different posts and we could all go to the same place to vent. (or is that the IMSB failure poll thread) Good thinking Bro!
I have a good BBQ pit, so you guys are always welcome to drop by any time. That would be fun.
The dead engine probably won't end up here (other than when I get the car towed home today), I'll likely just ship it straight from the shop to whoever I sell it to.
An engine dissection party does sound fun though!!!
Yeah, I do want to pull enough apart to see what caused the engine failure. I'm hoping the shop owner will let me do that. He's a great guy, and I think he will.
Two years ago, we adopted a cat from the local Humane Society shelter. A couple months later, it fell off of the roof and broke its jaw. I had to spend over $2,500 for that "free" cat, and spent a couple months tube-feeding it via a tube installed from its neck into its gut. We still have him, runs as good as new.
I hear you guys about doing some upgrades to the used engine. So, what are some things you suggest I should do to try and CEF/MOF-proof it, along with approx. costs? (it already has the LN IMSB).
I don't mind throwing another 1K or so into it, if the upgrades are worth it.
I replaced the AOS on the car about 19,000 miles ago. So, I guess I can just keep that one. Or do you guys think I should get a new one?
OK, coolant expansion tank being added to the list.
KK, I'm sure this is where you can add some great value to this thread!
Here's a list of some recent preventative maintenance stuff I did on the car (and you guys thought KK was KKrazy!
). Also, new fuel pump (a separate invoice).
.
Hate to be the party pooper, Butt to get to the point of impact you will have to split the case at minimum. That will make shipping much more difficult.
Who ever buys it will prefer it in it's virgin state.
Walter I doubt you could even drop an engine so maybe you should butt out.
Cuda, depending on the engine your getting, its a long list. I would take a look at the bores, pull the sump cover, comp test, etc. The good news is the parts are not too expensive, its the labor that costs so much if the engine were in the car.
Don't forget the oil filler tube, plugs, coils packs, cam sol seals, oil cooler, etc. Great time to take a good look at its current IMSB (even if new), RMS, clutch and related parts, DMF, coolant hoses/lines, vacuum lines, and on and on. Maybe even catch the chain guides and possibly chains, tensioners. WP and T-stat for sure. Theres a decent thread on mine while I had it out.
Scary bill you got there. Holy crap!
[QUOTE=KrazyK;11851354]Walter I doubt you could even drop an engine so maybe you should butt out.
I have no doubt I could if I wanted or needed to (which I haven't), but at the very least I have been and still am able to drive and enjoy my car the way it was meant to be driven and enjoyed...and feel I have gotten every penny that I've put into it back out in terms of enjoyment, which I'm surmising is the majority opinion here. The car owes me nothing which is a great feeling. I'm pretty sure you're the only one here who would decide to drop a perfectly functioning engine just to put a coat of wax on it...
Oh, good Lord.
You left off rod bolts. Remember it was (or is assumed) a rod bolt was the cause of engine's demise.
If the rod bolts can fail how about the rods themselves? And the crank? Valves have been know to break. And valve springs. Heads crack. And so on.
In fact, I'm wondering if I should get new rods and bolts, or, I believe there are aftermarket rods with no bolts available. But, I think that will get too expensive in a hurry.
How about chain rails, guides, tensioners? Maybe new ones for the new motor?.
.
The car just got dropped back home. Starting to look like a freekin' used car lot here.
.
Cuda, here is an idea: why don't you send the replacement engine for refresh to JR (or somebody else with similar competency) and pay for the service with your blown engine? Just an idea. Anyways, since we are "neighbors" (I am in Carlsbad) send me a PM and the German lunch & beer is on me.
I plan to go over the used engine in detail with my mechanic. It's a small shop that builds race cars, etc. (Mulligan Racing Development) so he will be more than competent to do whatever needs to be done. But, I'd like suggestions from folks here, too, since there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience.
Beer??? That got my attention. PM sent.
I drive mine daily and as an only car, I can't say they let me down. I might change my opinion when it gets to 120k, but so far, it is around the same maintenance effort that any of the M3/M5 variants I have had over the years have been (and much lower than my E30 M3)
All this time I thought it was a drink for people who couldn't handle "real" liquor, and now I learn it's a magazine for people who can't handle much of anything.
I hear that, but I was responding to the sentiment that Porsche's are not really useable as DD cars, I am also surprised that most people on here seem to baby them, obviously Cuda doesn't count, as he actually seems to have the ***** to drive his car like it was intended.
Beer and Cosmo, sheesh. Yeah, going the way I expect any RL thread to run. Still missing the *****, however.
So, let me steer this back to the matter at hand.
One guy PMed me that he thought he could hear a tappet sound in the video clips. Any of you agree?
Also, the car is somewhere in Houston (I don't know where yet). The seller said it would be fine if I wanted to send someone by to check it out.
Any volunteers
?? That would be fantastic, if I could get some eyes on it while it's still in the car and in running condition.
As mentioned earlier, the owner of the shop where the car is at got bitten by some sort of toxic spider, so is in the hospital, apparently slipping in and out of consciousness.
[Holey arachnophobia! You just can't make this sort of stuff up!!!]
So, the engine seller is working on getting the car moved to another shop.
Here's a spider that's living in the eaves of my garage. We named him Boris.
.
Well, technically, now that the first motor has failed and you start the process with a second motor, your chances are exactly the same that that one fails as your first one fails. Had you started out with the fresh 996 and calculated your odds at that time that two in a row would fail, then yes, that would be very low. But you're now in a different probability situation.
IMHO you are choosing a good path. It is not far from my path with a Raby repair. The repair included significant maintenance items that I would have had to do in the next 20-30k miles anyway so the bite was a little less.
I wasn't being serious. I was trying to highlight how if one believes the engine needs the things like chains, cam guides, etc. the sky's the limit and really if one feels the engine needs this kind of internal attention he's buying the wrong engine or driving the wrong car.
Listening to the second clip I hear something from the car. I note with that extensive rear end damage likely the noise could be explained by an exhaust leak.
Ideally the car should be put on a lift with the engine running and the engine given a PPI, at least the tech listen to the engine with a stethoscope. If the exhaust is leaking the PPI should discover this. If the noise is coming from inside the engine then there's a problem.
My advise would be to keep looking for an engine unless you are prepared to strip this one down and address the source of that noise. But without knowing the source of the noise you could be buying a nice can of worms. Unopened.
there was a bit of an arguement about the depriciation and 996 eating money, for those feeling crossed I might give you a nice example of my experience,
so here is a car, bought for 1000$
then adding about 10000~15000$ in parts paint wheels upgrades it looks like this
does it cost the money thrown at it? of course not
why did I do it?
well simply for the fun of it, and I don't earn that much, but it gave me lots and lots of experience sharpened up my skills, and opened lots of doors I didn't even knew existed
it also gave me very good idea of how what works and allowed me to work on my own Porsche, and fix its blown up engine, and the car was bought as a roller, with "head gasket damage"
I paid 10900euros for my car, then personally towed it on a trailer 1200miles home, and actually I don't regret anything. It is a fantastic car, yes it has some flaws compared to my long experience of owning and working on beemers. but NO car gives such a thrilling feeling driving it, ok maybe a ferrari or a lambo would, but I havent grown till them by now
so take it easy, and enjoy the car if you like it and are lucky enough to be able to afford it
peace
it started it's life as a 524tdA 2,4 liter turbo diesel with automatic transmission and miserable 105hp ended up with 320hp and 500nm from 5,4l v12.
but this is too far offtopic I believe, I'm not here to advertise this car
Hmm... again, anyone in Houston who can take a look? Maybe I should make a new post in the general forums, to ask a wider group of RLers. Surely, someone here is in Houston.
Cuda, Don't get caught up in a frenzy of trying to rebuild the replacement motor. Ask DCP for maintenance records on his car and swap your car parts to the replacement engine if yours is newer like the AOS.
Look at other common wear/maintenance parts like the chain guides, water pump, coils and plugs. Rest can be fixed when it breaks or need replacement few years down the road.
WOW. That's one hell of a parts list. Sorry to hear that your engine blew. Take your time and weigh your options. PM me if you want details of my build and why I chose not to buy a used engine.
Get with the program...Learn how to read the forum. The first post explains the problem, then we get to chime in post after post after post on our opinions/sage advice of how or what to do about it.
Sorry to have to post a follow up to make a previous post clear, but just so it is clear, I'm not saying the candidate engine is bad, only that I hear a noise that could be coming from the engine or it could be coming from an exhaust leak.
You need to know for sure.
Thus you need someone to listen to the noise and pinpoint from where it is coming.
If out side the engine that's ok.
If from inside the engine then that changes things. If the noise proves to be from inside the engine then you would need to address the noise and probably the best time to do this would be after the engine is pulled from the donor car and before it is installed into you car.
But before you fix the noise, you need to know if the noise is something you want to deal with. To know this, to be able to make an informed decision about this, you need to know where noise is coming from and knowing this then what might likely be its cause.
Thus I think your seeking someone in the vicinity of the car to check out the engine is a wise move.
I hope the noise proves to be exhaust related and the engine proves to be quiet and a solid replacement and you can get on with enjoying your car once again.
Now don't think I'm pulling a KK....My thought process comes from when I had to source a motor....it was suggested to me to get a new oil cooler. Basically start with a fresh one because the fins are clean as well as the innards. They are around $250 and so easy to change while everything is accessible.
Can of brake clean makes the outside like new.
Radiator shop can clean & pressure test for $10.
Primary function of the heat exchanger is to warm engine oil after cold start.
Porsche has a patent on the heat exchanger & Hans Mezger recieves a royalty for every car that has it.
Yes, but my list was for DIY'ers and quickly becomes cost prohibitive. He has some tough choices to make with an unknown used engine and us arm chair QB's sometimes forget they are HIS choices. Im hoping Sandersd will be able to check it out for him.
And about the oil HE on top of the engine, I think he meant at least change the orings.
What can I say? I've always been an over-achiever.
Thanks for all the additional comments, everyone. I haven't yet heard from Sandersd. As you guys state, it would be ideal to get some ears out there in Houston to try and figure out where the mystery noise is coming from. As also stated, I can swap stuff out from my current motor, but it would be good to know in advance what issues I might want to pay special attention to.
Calling Sandersd... hello? Hello? You out there???
Dec. 7, 2014 Update:
Sandersd says he'd be glad to check the motor out, so that's great news.
I contacted the seller. He's still trying to gain access to the car. As mentioned, it's locked up at his mechanic's shop, and the mechanic is in the hospital, in pretty rough shape.
Ok.. If you had a time machine and could do it all over again what would you have done.
996 or 997 or as was mentioned earlier, 991 lease. With all of the data and subjective information at handd would you have even performed the prentative maint.
I mean, maybe just buy a cheap 996 and drive the heck out of it until it lets loose...
Please five us the raw "hind sight is 20/20" feedback??
Many Thanks and good luck
Me honesty would have bought a 964, it would have doubled value instead of losing 100k of value and I wouldn't need to deal with having to replace my engine that's valued more then the car is worth. I do love the looks of my C4S though but had I known, No way
Have you ever owned a 964? I did. It rained oil. Rained. Leaks from multiple locations. At the time I owned it (2003 to 2008), it was a $15,000 car. Would have cost $10,000 to stop the leaks, and the conventional wisdom was that the break in the oil tsunami would be temporary (good for about 30,000 miles, then the deluge would begin anew).
The oil leaks onto hot parts of the engine caused the engine to smoke - not from the tailpipe, but from the engine bay. Not billowing clouds of smoke, but enough to be a nuisance. The smoke came into the cabin at stop lights. Basically, you either lived with it or spent big bucks to fix it knowing it would just need to be done again after a few years.
Revisionist history is a remarkable thing.
I don't most here are original owners. Many are getting great deals and the 996 is the deal of the century for 911's and if their engine goes still would still be not that bad off.
Sorry I'd have just fixed the leaks had I got a lemon like the one your speaking of. I know many more of them out there and earlier 911's that are very good drivers and while may drip once in awhile so has my RMS and IMS seals.
Interesting question.
Well, given the time machine scenario, I think I would have bought a 997.2. At the time I bought my 996, I paid cash for it. I like to own my vehicles. I have never leased one.
To purchase a 997.2, I would have wanted to finance some, to prevent dipping too much into my emergency cash.
So, given the information and resources at the time I purchased my 996, it was the right decision at that time. Given the expenses I have incurred, however, I could have purchased a 997.2.
Of course, in life 20/20 hindsight often isn't that useful.
I don't mean to bust your bubble dude, but in "hindsight" we would do a lot of **** differently. Examples:
1. OJ might not have killed his wife & boyfriend
2. We might not have ever used the atomic bomb
3. Jim would have studied for his biochemistry final instead of banging Lola that night
So hindsight doesn't count. Cuda did what made sense at the time and he enjoyed his decision. Decisions are decisions; hindsight is dwelling on the past.
EXACTLY! The fact that aircooled's have jumped in value doesn't make them any less of a hot, smokey, oil-dripping, terrible A/C, fairly primitive and expensive to repair machine... The only real difference is that now a cosmetically clean but oil leaking air cooled might now be worth enough to justify spending $10,000 pulling the engine, splitting the cases, repairing the leaks...
And if I had a 'do-over' machine to go back 3 years and invest $20K with the knowledge of hindsight, I can think of
far
better places to 'invest' than a 993/964/911SC.
997.2's are nice cars, but still on the steep depreciation curve, and even more so if you go back three years! The extra depreciation alone that
all
997.2's would have been more than the ~$12K or so you are stung with on the catastrophic failure, and that's on every 997.2 (well, excluding 997.2 GT3's which are doing just fine), not just the one or two percent of 996's that will have a catastrophic failure.
I just landed in Charlotte...I have a project at the airport. Surely I can find a pair of yoga pants with some young thing poured into them. I'm here all day so I have plenty of time for research.
So Mike, any luck with Sandersd or the ill mechanic?
And BTW, I support the project as long as the subject meets forum approval. A tasteful photo may help.
Well, this thread is rapidly devolving the way most 996 threads eventually do. I will get it back on track once I have updated news regarding the motor I am buying.
^^^
NP.
I did receive the following email today regarding the mechanic (Viking) who has the car at his shop:
So, if any of you know Viking, I'm sure he would appreciate your best wishes.
Any thread that is this long eventually takes a detour into babes and boobies.
Here is a pic of Lola. She will be 9 next week...and she doesn't like yoga pants. But she does have something like 8 nipples.
Alrighty then, since we are taking this intermission whilst waiting for engine replacement update news, for your viewing pleasure (skip ahead to 28 seconds):
Whatever Lola Wants, Damn Yankees. - YouTube
Gonzo, my thinking and imagination was more in tune with Sneaky Pete. So, yoga pants with a young thing with TWO nipples was what I had in mind as well.
LuLu Lemon's disaster is why I joined Yoga in the first place. Unfortunately it would've been creepy if I brought my phone to class, especially being in the last row and all. Now that they fixed the see-through issue, I no longer have any incentive to keep attending classes.
Long thread.
First, prayers go out to the Mechanic first and foremost. Next I wish Cuda major luck in the swap, keeping a fine 996 on the road is often a thankless gig outside this community, but you will pat yourself on the back after 100k under your belt on that new motor (once PPI'd). If you ever run thru TN swing by for real BBQ and Whiskey.
Good luck!
P.S. - Man that is one high PMCS bill you displayed!
P.S.S - Someone please bring on the ***** already
12/11/2014:
Some of you guys were mentioning in Diesel's blown engine thread about a company in Las Vegas (Renegade Hybrids) that does LS conversions.
Web site:
http://www.renegadehybrids.com/
I just sent them an email with a bunch of questions. Will keep you posted.
Anyone know what the cost is for a complete swap? The idea has always intrigued me; and with a healthy 3.6 available in my garage to fund the project....
Well Whiteout member on here did it somewhat on the cheap as he was able to sell things and got deals on other things but for the avg joe, you're probably looking close to $20k if you opt for a brand new crate motor and one of the more recent LSX varieties. Just the Renegade basic kit is like $8k by itself which is really only the adaptor pieces. You have to spend more on the accessories(ie water pump, exhaust, intake, etc) and time to adapt the instrument cluster gauge and such. This would not include labor.
Renegade is pretty active on their Facebook page. I posted this question to them a while back and they responded by saying "it could be done" and they were working on documenting a procedure that walked you through the process. Probably best to call them.
cuda, u sell ur car as a roller or part out & buy the 4CS u found on the other thread if it has records & checks out, that puts u back in the saddle around 8kish. not bad-
m
I've thought about that lingpoen. Certainly a possibility, but I'd like to get my car brought back to life if possible.
Still, seems like a fantastic deal for someone. Of course, this is assuming we can believe the ad. But, there are TONS of filthy rich folks in Newport Beach, so it may just be a guy looking to quickly get rid of his car.
Regarding the LS swap... I haven't heard back yet from Renegade. I'll call them later today and see if the swap can be done for a Tip.
Regarding price: Their 996 kit is $3,900. I've been able to find a brand new crate LS-3 for $6,200. Then, there are all the ancillary parts needed, plus labor. A guy on RL PM'd me and says he can help with any questions, so I'm assuming he has done it.
I'm still in the early info. gathering stage....
.
You're missing a couple major things off the bat like wiring harness and ecu. You can do the standard ecu which maybe more trouble than it's worth or do a custom setup like FAST which is a bit more on the cost($1-2k depending on options and package). If you don't want to fab or mess around, you'll want the power steering and cooling kits too. As previously said, once you factor everything in, you'll be close to $8k for conversion parts not including motor/labor/ecu/etc.
Personally, I'd sacrifice having a old school whale tail to stuff one of these in.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet+Perf...0165K/10002/-1
As far as the LS3 goes, Scott from Renegade recommended the "E-Rod" kit which has more of the stuff needed to make it work (ECU, exhaust manifolds, cats, sensors...). This is closer to $8K:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Perf...95009/10002/-1
You could still find a used LS1/LS2/LS3 for far less than the cost of a used M96 but then you'd have to deal with potential rebuilding issues, etc.
Man, that C4S up in Newport Beach is looking better and better. It would actually be a minor upgrade from your C2 to a C4S. If you didn't like the AWD, you could always disconnect it. It's a tip, which you obviously like. If it were me, I'd salvage the bits & pieces off the old car that I really liked (& the buyer probably won't care about anyway) and sell the carcass. You're back in the driver's seat at the minimal cost in the minimum time with the minimum amount of hassle.
Yeah, as I've been mentally adding up all the misc. stuff needed, I can see that the LS swap is about 8k, maybe 10k, for the engine plus misc stuff. So, that puts you at 14 - 16K in parts. As said by Alpine, looks like an easy 20K to do this conversion.
At Cars & Coffee last week I was talking to a guy that just finished doing an LS3 conversion on a 944. He was able to get it CARB certified, but it's quite a process. He did all of the work himself, though. Very impressive job. His car looked great.
KC, if I lived anywhere where it snowed (or even rained) I'd be all over a C4. I love 4WD/AWD, and that's why I have owned about 8 or 10 Subarus. For here, the C4 isn't really of value to me. I wouldn't mod it though, and remove the front drive from it. Plus, I already have a silver Porsche.
So far, it's still looking like the Texas motor is my best option. Of course, I still need to get some direct eyes on it once the car can be accessed.
I have the same feeling, or get the used motor like you intended and put that in if you are attached to your current car due to it's color/mods/condition/etc.
As for a 944 LS conversion, I cry when I see it as it's like 1/4 of the cost all added up including the car, considering you can find VGC 944S models around here for $2-3k, add that to the fact that 944 LS conversion kits are as low as $1500. So basically for well under $10k, you have a 944 LS car which includes the car itself.
I think a 996 LS conversion has to be a labor of love... It will consume far more time and cash than you originally plan on, and there will always be 'one more thing' to do with it.
Makes sense to do if it's your dream to have an LS1 engine in a Porsche, not as a less expensive or easier way to deal with a failed engine. IMHO of course...
Ouch. Seems like you would know if you tagged something under the car hard enough to break the case.
I'd think there's a wrecked 996 out there that could be a donor, to bring the car back to the living. Heck, buy a 996 that isn't wrecked, swap motor and part that car out, based on what you spent on this one.
I think you stressed the motor trying to follow me a few weeks ago.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/466x350/10696359_10152816521846480_5247730497290236417_n_ac3dcac4eb7252e29951e36a133d1863e0c1b7e0.jpg
Seller is still trying to get access to his car, mechanic shop owner is still in poor shape in hospital. Daughter is trying to get access. And odd circumstance, for sure.
Well, playing with my 914s in the meantime.
I know I'm late to the party (and I only own a hair dresser convertible, so I don't know everything) but I felt compelled to speak up regarding rod bolts.
In a M96 tear down just about the last pieces in your hands are rod bolts, so having them swapped out in your newer engine would be a ton of work. In an american V8 you can drop the pan and reach them all but not on this thing.
Also, I saw mention in this thread that the ARP bolts cost the same (or about the same) as the stock bolts. Not by a long shot. I purchased a full set of OEM bolts from Pelican for my project and they were $60. LN sells the set of ARP rod bolts for $250. That may be "about the same" for you well off guys but for us mere mortals it's a hit.
That said, I did purchase the ARP bolts and am in the process of returning my OEM to Pelican for credit. Going cheap in this case is going stupid.
Good luck with your car, and yes those 914s are some great examples of the type.
Another thought is that LN had ARP make them special for the 996, hence the high price as other ARP rod bolts are in the $60-90 range (quick research).
12/15/2014 Update:
The guy said he should be getting his car home this evening, and I'm trying to coordinate with Sandersd to take a look.
Here's what the mechanic says regarding the "ticking" in the video clip:
“In the ticking I'd let it idle for 10-min till warm, then run up to 3500-4000 RPM bringing it back down to idle on occasion until its fixed. Should just be a few minutes to fix. It's usually just a hydraulic lifter that's not staying up as it should.”
I'm wondering, does he mean the chain tensioner? That's the symptom I would expect.... tic, tic, tic on start-up that goes away.
Mine ticks on idle, with revs up to 2000, and from what I've gleaned from posting on here, talking to people from local PCA, and the mechanic at the dealership who did my PPI, it's most likely a lifter ticking, and not getting fully pumped up. Comes from the passenger side, towards front of engine bay near the headers.
It's very inconsistent as to when it's ticking. However after a good spirited run getting the engine temps up a little higher, it's usually quieter or nonexistent at idle. Also always goes away around the 2000 rpm mark no matter what temp the engine is at.
PO was using way to high viscosity for the engine. So far with the proper oil and BG MOA it does it less and less, hopefully with the next oil changes it'll get even quieter. From what the mechanic tells me it won't go back to being healthy overnight, it may never. But not worth losing sleep over, and not worth replacing the lifters until I'm already in there. It's annoying sometimes but I can't hear it unless I have all air and radio off.
Hope that information helps, I found mine to be a good buy and I expect many more miles out of my engine.
Thanks for the additional info, guys. I never had any ticking from my car.
[Except that one time when there was a ticking coming from a plain brown-wrapped box in the back seat. No, wait, that was in a movie, not my car.]
I'd pass, ticking could be also piston slap, piston tapping the head. chain stretched or rails worn out. Sounds like that engine needs to be torn apart and fixed up before she tick tocks and booms.
Hey all, I found another motor. It has 41,000 miles on it. Seller will send me pix and video on Wed. Apparently, it is in a car that is still running.
It's $1,000 more than the Texas motor, but 16,000 fewer miles. It doesn't have LN IMSB (as far as I know), but I can pull the LN IMSB out of my motor and swap them. I don't have any history on the car, since it was bought by a guy who buys salvage cars and then he sell the misc. parts.
What do you all think? Is the 16,000 fewer miles worth it? I know that the Texas car was well-maintained (and has LN IMSB installed) until the accident, but no maint. records are available for the other motor.
Thanks in advance.
Sounds like good news! Install a new LN bearing on the new motor though. Should be minimal labor with engine out anyway. The LN bearing (or other brands) can only be installed once AFAIK.
Thats the problem with dealing with companies like ARP. Do all the development, spend all the time and money to work out their issues, then they sell them to anyone. It gets really old, really quick.
Jake , I know that's bad for you but its good for the consumer. The Summit price puts them more in the range for the average guy than the $250 retail price. A developer should get their money/fee then wash their hands of it. It's impossible for you to compete with huge companies as a retailer. For instance, if Walmart became a Porsche specialist, you would quickly be out of business. I don't necessarily think its good, its just the free market.
KrazyK, you couldn't be more wrong on this one. This is not good for the consumer, because it just means things in the future will be more protected, making them more expensive. Already we have had to change the way that we are working with others in regard to developing things for them.
Originally BMW rod bolts were being modified to fit the M96 rods, we had to measure housing bore sizes with various torques and work all of it out so they'd work. At that point the decision was made to take those specs and make an application specific ARP bolt for the M96 rod. There was no interest in making an M96 rod bolt when we started all of this with M96 engines. We were laughed at, but that was the standard back then.
Nothing in this industry is more expensive than development.
Jake Im agreeing with you but you cant expect companies like Summit, Jegs, whoever to not carry products like ARP regardless of the engine aplication. I don't think they consider the R&D behind it or even care. Are you saying you want to keep all your R&D for yourself? Didn't you go through the same thing with the bearings, oil. etc? If Summit decided to carry IMSB's surely they would be cheaper than LNE's? Your advantage is that the M96 market is miniscule to them.
This dynamic plays out in every industry. Jake is perfectly right to carefully manage the distribution of the result of his R&D (which I agree is often the most expensive part of producing unique, complex, low volume products). Summit and others are perfectly right to find the best way for them to distribute products whether they feel that a lower price will be made up for by volume, or not. The right balance isn't easy to strike, but you do know that if you completely miss it, you go out of business, so it's reasonable to err on the side of staying in business.
I see this every day at my company, which produces a very low volume, highly specialized technical instrument that, if we could sell 100 times as many, would probably cost 1/10 as much. Virtually all the cost of the instrument at current volumes is amortized R&D.
Jake, My apologies. You are appreciated here more than you will ever realize. I still think you should sell engine kits. Now, on with the engine sourcing.
Developing a new product requires overhead. This is an up front cost that a supplier has decided is worth investing in to create a product. The price of the product is commensurate of the time (overhead) required to develop the product. If someone steals your IP and sells it at a 50% margin they are obviously going to cost less because they aren't covering that R&D overhead, just manufacturing cost.
What your suggesting is that every company should perform R&D for free and or they should invent a prodcut and sell th rights on the free market.
Having said that, if the LN bearing was patented and the patent has run out then technically Flat 6 should have had the time to recoup the R&D overhead and some profit.
Simple business really, what's not to get?
Your insinuation that the cheap pricing being good for consumer, doesn't work well in our world. You made a couple of other comments that dove-tailed on this, RE development.
There would be no incentive for companies like L&N to spend time developing items, if they will lose out to the mass sellers working on low margins. Your thought process in the above posts was flawed.
The problem is not the mass seller like Summit. The problem is the deal LN/Flat 6 had to make with APR in order to have these bolts made. Looks like APR retained the rights to sell them to anyone.
It's not quite that formal in this industry.. Exclusivity is defined in different ways.
On top of that, it's all pretty political, and I don't deal with politics.
I am done working with others in the industry, if I develop something it's going to be for my engines only and my purchasers will benefit from it. Otherwise it's time to check out.
Cuda, I think if everything checks out the new motor you found is worth it. 16K is easily worth 1k along with the better records and no tick. Also agree about getting a new bearing. Or even better put in the IMS pro Dual row bearing that just came out to replace existing single row bearings. I don't know the specifics of this but perhaps Jake could fill us in.
12/16/2014 Update:
Alrighty, now that we've had a brief lesson in market economics, back on topic:
OK, I'm in the process of buying an engine. It's neither of the two posted about above. This morning, DTMiller and dgjks6 sent me PMs regarding a third engine for sale, that is local (in Sacramento). Thanks, guys!
I had some correspondence with the seller, and he did a leak-down today. Numbers are good, and he send me a video clip of it running.
I notified the seller of the motor in Houston, and he was very polite about it, a true class act.
The problem I'm running into now is Christmas/New Year. The seller says he thinks he can get it down here by Mon. or Tues. next week. If not, I may need to wait until after new year.
Lingpoen, I'm having Mulligan Racing Development in Vista do the work.
OK, I didn't realize that I couldn't re-use my LN IMSB. Of course, with the press-fit, that makes sense.
So, who's got a link to the best price for one?
I suppose I should get a new AOS too. Too much chance of metal debris in mine so I probably shouldn't, since I don't really know the extent of internal damage to my motor.
If any of you still don't know what to get me for Christmas, you can add the IMSB and AOS to the list. Tonight is the first night of Hanukah, so you still have 8 days to get them to me if you prefer that holiday.
And no core charge. What's the plan with the old engine? Take it apart yourself and see the damage or sell it for parts? Would love to see a thread on the disassembly of the old one.
Two things of which I have none thereof.
(How's that for abused grammar?)
OK, one eBay vendor is selling the LN IMSB for $593.75:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Inter...c038e8&vxp=mtr
Another guy has it for a whopping $2,164.77:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...0b4a1c&vxp=mtr
Then, there is every imaginable price in between.
Any reason I shouldn't buy the $593.75 one? Is there something suspicious there?
LN has it at $800.00 on their web site (not sure if they also charge tax and shipping).
Of course, if I need to spend the extra $200 to $300 I will.
I wonder if any of the sellers can verify the authenticity of the parts?
Cuda,
I purchased an LN IMS on ebay for $632 from partscontainer. They had the part to my dealer (Gaudin Porsche) in less than 72 hours (delivered yesterday) with no problems whatsoever. My service adviser said everything is legit and all necessary parts were in the box. I would recommend highly.
OK, $650 from Pelican.
Now, I need to find out if I need Part Number: LN-106-08-2 or Part Number: LN-106-08-4. The motor I buying is out of a 2002.
Finally! An IMSB thread that has some relevance!!! Another RL first, here.
12/17/2014 Update: OK, then engine has been yanked from the donor car and I should have it early next week.
I got a good price on the LN IMSB from TC's Garage in Vista, CA.
Why are you not buying the oil feed setup? There are several options out there and this should solve the problem for the long term. The engines before the 996 used this, seems to have worked.
Let's clarify "Oil Feed Set up"
The IMS Solution is a plain journal bearing that works from pressure fed oil that forms a load bearing surface during operation. This is what all aircooled /6 engines used, as well as the Mexger based GT3 and Turbo engines.
This is much different from the "Direct Oil feed" which is a kit that supplies oil to an original style M96 ball bearing. Huge difference there, fellas.
^^^ Yep. There are several viable "upgrades" to the OEM IMSB. As far as I can tell, the LN ceramic bearings are a good choice and are cost effective.
Jake, can you let me know whether to order LN-106-08-2 or Part Number: LN-106-08-4? Or do you not endorse either, since I know you are not a retailer and your intent was to only sell to installers that you have trained.
(Jake, I found a guy selling another 3.6 and gave him your name.)
Thanks!
Newb post so don't guarantee what I say, but as far as I know all 02's came with a single row bearing so it would be part number that ends in -2
From my recollections 99's double, 00-01's mixed single and double, and all 02's on single.
But if not sure you may have to take out the bearing to confirm that it is a single row.
Some one chime in if I am wrong.
Also they now make a new double row single bearing and of course there is the solution.
Thanks for the input, all comments are welcome.
Jake's posted on this issue quite a bit. Apparently, there is no way to know from the year or engine number whether a single or a double-row bearing was used.
But, I think the LN double row can be used as a replacement for either, and I "think" the double row is supposed to be better. Not sure though.
Yippeee!!! Now this has turned into an official IMSB thread!
(I will be sure and solicit everyone's sage advice before I replace the oil in the "new" motor).
Isn't the one ending with a '4' would suit an engine with original double-row?
LN's website is rather less user-friendly compared to other, either deliberately so or they haven't got the time to get some UX person.
I can't believe I am posting to an IMSB thread but from my time with my issues this is what I found and am pretty sure this is correct for the LN bearings.
Double row cars can only use the double row bearing LN bearing (ends in -4). This was my car. No other choices but comes with longer service life
Single row cars have multiple choices. They can use the single row (ends in -2), the solution (never need fixed again), or the new single row double bearing.
As far as what came in the car I think you need to look first. I have read about 01's with double bearings and other cars with replacement engines that have a non serviceable bearing because of an early replacement from the factory.
12/18/2014 Update:
Well, the plot thickens today!!
The guy pulled the motor yesterday, and guess what? It's a factory replacement motor!
So two things:
1. It likely has many fewer miles on it than I thought, since the motor's mileage will be less than on the car's odometer. The car has 51K miles on the odo.
2. It has the larger IMSB, so it can't be replaced without splitting the case.
So, suggestions?
Also, here is the engine serial number: M9603AT66566515
What information can be gleaned from that?
Here's a picture of the motor showing the larger IMSB:
that 'guy' is me btw! when all the cylinders leaked down at 4% i thought it had to be a pretty fresh engine but discovering that its likely a 2005 factory remanned engine with super low miles makes it not so surprising anymore. much of the engine is clean like that driveside.
Wouldn't a Carfax on the VIN of the donor car would likely show the replacement engine date and mileage? And if not, couldn't a dealer look it up?
Donor car vin, not engine serial number....
I'll get the donor car VIN. Not sure a dealer will share this info, but I do know a sales guy that might look it up for me. Don't know that I want to drop $40 for a carfax.
Indeed, I have purchased it. I'm just wondering if I should do anything about IMSB upgrades.
By the way, Tony (the seller) has been great to work with. He's got lots of 996 parts, Boxster parts, etc., so I think he's a good resource to all of us.
If it were me I wouldn't do anything about the IMSB. You have a late engine and I don't even think there is an upgrade plus I haven't heard of one of those ever failing.
I believe the failure rate on the larger bearing is around 1% similar to the dual row. I would not do anything just install the engine and enjoy. Sounds like a great find.
If it was dealer installed either under warranty or as goodwill the record should be in the data base accessible to all dealers. Not sure how willing they might be to share the info, but I think it's worth a shot to simply get the VIN to your local dealer and ask.
Nice find by the way.
I agree with, JD. My car, too, has the 2005 reman engine (per the serial number). When Rennsport KC (in Kansas City) replaced the clutch last year, he verified in order to change out the IMS bearing, it would require splitting the cases. A LOT of work, for little reassurance, in my opinion. Rest easy that there are less miles. I've driven the hell out of mine for 6 years. The last 2 years, its been under an additional 6psi of supercharger pressure, many times.
Mike
This is what I got froman Autocheck I pulled
Carfax might give you more info
Event Date Event Location Odometer Reading Data Source Event Detail
06/16/2002 CA 146 Motor Vehicle Dept. ODOMETER READING FROM DMV
07/16/2002 PENN VALLEY, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
07/19/2002 PENN VALLEY, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE
(Lien Reported)
01/20/2005 PENN VALLEY, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE
REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
(Lien Reported)
02/20/2005 CA 16253 Motor Vehicle Dept. ODOMETER READING FROM DMV
02/20/2005 CAMINO, CA 16253 Service Contract Company SERVICE CONTRACT ISSUED
05/13/2005 CAMINO, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
05/27/2005 CAMINO, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE
07/31/2006 CA 21895 Motor Vehicle Dept. ODOMETER READING FROM DMV
08/10/2006 ROSEVILLE, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
08/20/2006 ROSEVILLE, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE
09/18/2006 ROCKLIN, CA 22919 Service Contract Company ENGINE SERVICED
06/04/2008 CA 28698 State Agency PASSED EMISSION INSPECTION
06/18/2008 ROSEVILLE, CA Motor Vehicle Dept. REGISTRATION EVENT/RENEWAL
04/30/2010 CA 35862 State Agency PASSED EMISSION INSPECTION
05/14/2012 CA 44226 State Agency PASSED EMISSION INSPECTION
06/16/2014 CA 51588 State Agency PASSED EMISSION INSPECTION
09/09/2014 PACIFIC SW REGION, 51835 Auto Auction REPORTED AT AUTO AUCTION
09/25/2014 CA Motor Vehicle Dept. TITLE
SALVAGE
Carfax seems to be the only 'carfax like' service that shows Porsche dealership service info... On all of my Porsche's, autocheck and others show reports similar to the above, but carfax shows extensive dealership service into.
If your paying ~$8K+ fpr an engine, it seems worth the $40 carfax fee to know how many miles are on it, even if it's a bit of a gamble that the info is shown.
(but I always hate paying the $40 for a single carfax VIN as well...)
sorry but do you know how long it took to see failures in the original engines. I think not.
There will be failures, no doubt in my mind. Will Porsche release all these numbers to us. I again doubt it. Blame it on not having the ability but I've heard of independent's having these engine failures come in on a monthly basis to deal with. And that's from a low production model vs Honda/Toyota engines out there. Your smoking real good stuff thinking that it wouldn't happen again.
Their **** engines, not performance engines, not built to track and not built to be driven in all climates in all weather conditions. Their best driven under warm weather, garage kept queens that don't see the driving that the old ones were made to do. Outside of perfect conditions and the failure rates sky rocket. Sorry as much as I love Porsche and what it used to stand I am no fanboy and know when I have been had.
Thanks for the info, Jay! What I'd really like to find out is the mileage when the motor was replaced. Not sure if that will show up on carfax or not, but I would think the dealer could look this up from the VIN, if the dealer is willing.
No problem
My guess it was around 23k based on service contract company engine serviced entry
Carfax is usually more specific
Hope to see your blue beast up and running again soon
Mike, my 03 has a reman engine as well, a little older in SN than yours. Carfax showed that it was "removed for repair" in 05 at the dealer and lists the mileage.
Bob
I only agree if your talking exercised from cold taken out from warm weather or warm garage, put away in a warm garage and driven like any other car out there following the laws of the road. This is what I meant by perfect conditions. As long as the engine is all ready warm and running, driving in cold weather is fine as long as the engines running or warm the whole time. Performance driving is another story I think this severely reduces the amount of engine life it does have.
Every time I see a comparison of Porsche CEF vs. Honda/Toyota, my first question is: What is the ownership demographic? And how likely is each brand's ownership demographic to drive the cars hard? You want to compare CEF rates, consider the amount of CEF in late 90s Integras and you'll see that Honda CEFs are not that much different.
First, glad to see your using the correct acronym. The main difference is probably the extreme cost of a CEF in a 996 compared to the cost of a CEF in an late 90's Integra which is practically worthless with or without a blown engine.
1999 Integra good cond. $5000
vs.
1999 996 good cond. $25000
vs.
1999 996 with CEF $5000
Get it?
Hah, thanks. Its' probably less shock for Integra owners to realize they just lost $4000 in value vs. losing $20,000 with the 996. Though I doubt an Integra roller is even worth $1000. Probably more like the current scrap weight.
It's amazing a new engine used to be $12k even a few years ago. I remember a member that got his engine for $16k at a dealership including installation and at that time, he felt like he got raped. Lol have times changed.
tick tock
How much you buy in this for anyways. I expected my engine to last more then 120k km after paying over 130k Cdn plus taxes for mine and Porsche long line of race victories and heritage. I can see not given it much thought when your entering the game at less then 20k.
Hmmm, my 2004 C2 that I purchased in 2007 has been driven in all climates, even parked outside under ice and snow the first couple of years, cleaned off and driven beyond the rules of the road on a daily basis (although never been tracked). 86K miles on the clock now and still running very well. Not sure where folks come up with the idea that these cars can only be driven under certain conditions or why some people own what sounds as if they despise.
You should buy lotto tickets, mine did the same for 8 years. Maybe yours will get the same. I expect more from such as expensive car and engine, with a company that promotes their race heritage success and a car that's touted can be driven to the race track and back and beat every day under any condition.
my pleasure mike. that engine dropped out so nice and smooth. textbook vehicle cooperation... no stripped threads or rusted/ seized bolts. and i didn't even bump my head once under that tight crawl space. my kind of extraction! best of luck with the motor!
Thanks, guys!
I went over to the shop today, and they are all set for the transplant next week. Once they receive the motor, they will see what all ancillary stuff I should replaces (hoses, etc.). I will definitely also get a new AOS and replace the spark plugs.
Why are you on this thread?
The OP got a great deal on a nearly new motor.
And you want to crap on this?
There is a reason why you have had the miserable experience you've had. It's called Karma.
If you are getting the whole shebang remans come with everything new except the a/c compressor. I had a charging issue on the C4S and the dealer initially diagnosed it as the alternator, no worries as it was under warranty along with the reman. Turned out to be a charging cable and that was covered under warranty. Sounds like you should play the lotto because itlooks like you win.
you'll probably want to get a new AOS for sure as the drive side of bank 1 was the only side with accumulated grime classic to the AOS.
also, on the drive side bottom of bank 2, there's a square coolant port attached by two torx screws. make sure mike retightens those as i had to remove them when i separated the transmission and only finger tightened them back.
Thanks, Tony. Yep, new AOS for sure. I'll do the spark plugs even though they probably have low mileage on them, cheap enough to do. I'll be sure and mention the coolant port to Mike Mulligan.
Thanks, Ted!
The motor arrived today (12/24/2014).
Of course, being right before Christmas, work will not start on it today. I'll go over to the shop on Monday (12/29/14) and check things out.
Mike,
Looks like you haven't been naughty this year so Santa is giving you a Pass. You came up on this deal though! I'm curious how much you had to cough up. PM me if you're willing to share info.
Merry Christmas!
Ed, got any details on the run? The guys on 914World are also organizing a run for 1/1/15.
However, the typical status of most 914s is "on jack stands" so not sure if more than maybe two will show up.
Here was the status last I saw:
We should combine the two runs.
Mulligan Racing Development, Vista, CA
We'll have to make it subject to weather-the forecast as of this am, for Thurs, is rain. Cold temps and snow in mtns. We'll see, it's still a ways out.
12/29/2014 Update:
OK, motor is at the shop. Went and took a quick look today. Looks good. Oddly, plug coil packs were disconnected and several other manifold parts too. Looks like someone from Homeland Security went through it (seriously!). No big deal, but very odd.
.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/290x289/5094_221c14aa8d9ef546fd550bc21f768e72d30654c3.jpg
no big mystery with the fiddling of the plugs and intake plenums... gotta pull the coils and plugs to leak down and the starter buried underneath all the intake plenums has to come out to separate the tip tranny. no sense buttoning it back up! good to see it arrived pretty much exactly how it was packed for shipment.
Ah, OK, that makes sense. Since it was dropped from a running car, I didn't get why these items were disconnected.
Yep, I'm trading correspondence with Rebecca. There are two other interested parties also. I'll keep all interested parties in the loop via email after the transplant is completed.
Thanks, I will definitely keep posting updates. Looks like the transplant will be next week.
Yep! So, why the delay? It's been blocking that part of the shop for weeks now. Get that wreck hauled out so that I have space for mine.
That engine looks great. I would give it a super cleaning and detail job while its out. Looks like the CC vent has been a little overwhelmed for such a new engine.
About how much are you paying for engines in various states of destruction? Are you mostly needing good heads? I will even deliver them if you need several at once.
I agree. Will look at that closer. Yeah, I'd love to spend a day at the shop with a jumbo box of Q-tips and cleaning products. A small bit of my arsenal:
Ah ignore Niche. He went bonkers one day when he dropped by and I was wearing magnifying goggles and using a needle to pick off a small debris spot from the targa vinyl on one of my 914s. He even dry-wipes dust from his car. It gives me the ******* every time I seem him do that.
Someone want to give JayG a heads up that in the next week when I post about my new Forest River Cayenne that I know it isn't a Cayenne? Or just let this one play out naturally?
Aren't you supposed to wear a diaper while you wipe the dust off? Or is it use a diaper to wipe the dust off? I don't recall. Maybe that's why the "*******" which is better than getting a "stiffy" while he does it. This thread has reached an all time low.
Yeah, that's the problem with these "intermissions" while waiting for things to progress with the motor.
AHHHHHHhhhhhhhrrrrrrggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
Unless it's your Prius. You can do whatever you want to that. Not worth the cost of the cleaning products.
Your drivers license should be suspended for that. The bug problem is what kept my 996 off the road much of the time and well below cruising speed when it did come out.
Well, not a whole lot to post until next week. The car is in my driveway, the motor is in the shop.
Here's a link to the shop:
http://mulliganracing.com/home.html
Here's the bio of the owner (it's a small shop, two guys):
Mike's also taking care of my 914s. He's probably the most knowledgeable 914 mechanic in the country.
So, here's the current Porsche collection, during this intermission (made an offer today on a Boxster for autocrossing, and seller backed out at the last minute, crap).
Considering that I was literally living from a dumpster less than 10 years ago (long story, thieving bitch of an ex involved) I'm quite proud of it, humble though it may be.
Now, go grab some popcorn, a dog, and take a whiz.
.
The 996 and Cayman (and 914s for that matter) are all such different driving experiences, that I can't really say which I enjoy driving more. It depends on the type of driving.
For a sunny slow day, I like driving the 914s best. For adrenaline moods, of course it's the 996. For just being out and about, the Cayman is great.
Hey guys... by the time the engine showed up here the shop was a bit backed up on projects. It's a small racing shop (two guys). Checked yesterday, and they are supposed to start on the car next week. The car's still sitting, unloved, in my side yard.
Patience, virtue, blah, blah, blah....
The thread "intermission" was getting rather too far off topic, so I figured I'd just let it lay low until there was some real news to post.
(In related news: Sheesh, I'm getting tired of driving the Kia around. Drove the Cayman at an autocross a couple weeks ago for the first time... I really liked it! I put in an offer on a Boxster at a local crappy used car lot. The guy accepted my offer at first, then backed out. Oh well, my place is looking like a used car lot anyway. Gave the Hyundai to my daughter, so one less vehicle to juggle. The '03 Turbo Beetle is gone as of a couple weeks ago, too.)
P.S. Can the IB overlords please get rid of that stupid feature that turns words into hyperlinks? Just because I used the magic word "Boxster" above, it makes a link?... jeez..
OK, so the engine replacement started today. Had the car towed over to Mulligan Racing Development in Vista, CA.
The tow truck driver really enjoyed seeing our small Porsche collection. I rode in the tow truck cab, and the whole time he was thrilled to be towing the car and asking all about it... when we got to the shop, he thanked me for letting him tow the car and said he felt like he was in a parade, hauling the Porsche. (So much for that stupid "are you embarrassed to drive a 996" thread).
In the sceond picture below, you can see the hole through the block better. Right behind the IMSB.
I didn't cut open the oil filter on the motor, but did see some gold-colored flecks in the bottom of the housing. Not many though. The picture didn't come out that well.
Stripped most of the top stuff from the replacement motor (injectors, harness, AOS, etc.). Will put in a new AOS, and use the other stuff from my motor.
The engine cover release mod that I did last year came in handy. Battery was dead from having the car sit since the motor was blown in October. But I was easily able to open the cover using the relocated cable. Again, I highly recommend this simple procedure. Here's a link to my thread, for those who aren't familiar with it:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...e-measure.html
Ran out of time to finish dropping the motor... almost everything is disconnected and all that is left to do is disconnect the mounts.
.
That's the pull-back spring mod. You pull the string really hard, and the car will go for up to 25 miles, based just on power provided by the spring.
.
.
.
.
Actually, it's the emergency engine cover release cable. I routed it up to just under the edge of the tail light, so it was easy to snag with a small hook to open the cover. Check out the link in my last post.
Sounds good! (what part of So CA are you in?)
I agree. The gum I initially used to seal the hole fell out anyway.
Sara will be at the AX in the Cayman. My parents will be visiting from Baltimore, so I have to miss that AX. I'll definitely catch the next one, though.
ive got a 2.5L boxster engine with the same exact hole in the cam cover, in pretty much the same exact spot. haven't had time to tear that engine down yet but probably the same type of failure.
good to see the engine replacement finally happening. shouldn't be too long now before you get to fire it up once more.
Sorting by number of views, this is the 18th longest thread, with about 43,500 views as of this morning.
The shop was initially recommended to me a couple years ago by RL member Niche. Yeah, they work on all my Porsches.
Actually, I think it should be "Porschi."
It's doing good. I drove it to the PCA Zone 8 concour this past weekend in Temecula. Need to get the idle tweaked a bit though... once it warms up, the idle drops too low.
Thanks, will do!
I've been trying to find it in the thread, but is there a final prognosis on what happened to the original engine? Was it timing chain related (as the hole in the chain cover seems to indicate)?
Sorry for the loss, but glad to see you're taking it in stride.
-Jon (Another guy with a blue, tracked C2 mk 2)
No prognosis, other than that the chain slapped a hole through the case. Why? That's the unanswered question. It will require splitting the case to answer this.
I have some parties interested in purchasing the motor, and they have indicated that an autopsy will be performed. Certainly, once I find out I will post that in info. this thread.
Today's progress: all top end stuff from my old motor was transferred over to the replacement motor. A couple of the spark plug packs from the replacement motor were in crappy shape for some reason (the rubber at the spark plug end was cracked/broken.), so swapped out the ones from my motor. I had recently replaced the water pump in my original motor, so that was swapped over too. Plastic impellers, in case anyone is wondering. The shop said the metal ones are MUCH less prone to failure, but oh well.
Tranny was bolted back in place. So, pretty much now all that's needed is the final install. Of course, I will need to get the AC recharged too. Hey: let's start an oil thread! I'm going with Mobil-1 0-40. Wacky, I know. Let the arguing begin!
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The last time I saw this MOF it was an engine from Sonnet Porsche. It picked up a chunk of debris and ran it through the chain, the chain "bumped" out and kissed the case just like yours.
Still interested in buying it, I don't need the block.
Yep, you are on the short-list. As soon as the motor is available (early next week) I'll let Rebecca know. One of the interested parties is local to me in San Diego, so that's the easiest way for me to get it out of the shop.
In addition to the pic you posted earlier in this thread, several others have made mention of this identical MOF. So, the question is, what is that "debris" that got picked up? There's been mention of a rod bolt, but I think that would have caused a lot more noise and damage. Well, I guess we will all know fairly shortly, so no need for my half-assed speculations.
I have seen the rod bolt create this 2-3 times. They will sometimes stretch, and then loosen, and simply fall out. Some of those instances will toss the bolt through the top of the case, other times it won't be that radical and the rod cap will stay in place and allow the engine to run without any noises, till its picked up by a chain.
I have also seen the IMS drive chains start to fail and have this failure occur.
In one instance a Porsche dealer did an IMSR and left a piece of debris in the engine, it was picked up by the chain and did this very thing as well. Anything that is made of a substantial material that runs between the chain and IMS drive can cause this. I have even seen a shop do an IMSR and run the wrong length bolt through the bell housing, and break a chunk of the case out, that fell into the chain well. That debris (piece of the block) was picked up by the chain and tossed it through the block. That car was owned by an RL member.
You know the motor may well fail anyway so whatever oil you use is probably a moot point!
Fwiw motor in my 99 has been on M1 0-40 for the last 30K miles and so far so good. I know that could change at any moment. It's an approved oil and as long as you change it every 5-8k miles you should be good on that front IMO.
1/28/2015 Update:
Just got a call from the shop.
The car's ready!!!
The mechanic (Gary) said that after it was put back together, it started right up instantly, with the first turn of the key.
I'll head over in an hour or two.
It has been a long journey with some surprises but you are almost home.
Best of luck with the replacement engine.
May it run long and you prosper.
Oh, nothing wrong with 0w-40. But in San Diego given the mild climate the next oil change maybe you want to switch to Mobil 1 5w-50 oil? (not a typo for 15w-50!).
I switched to 5w-50 here in sunny Livemore -- had the damn A/C in the car on last Saturday it was warm -- because the climate is so mild.
On the way back to Calif. from a road trip to the (frigid) midwest and time to get the oil changed the mid-west Porsche dealer put in 0w-40, which is fine by me. I'll leave it in for 5K miles and then switch back to 5w-50 next oil change.
so SoCal peeps are having a BBQ/GTG at your place to celebrate the rebirth/resurrection of your car followed by a quick jaunt up Mt Palomar?
Or maybe retrace your last trip to purge the gremlins/demons of that road
Congrats on getting back on the road.
Between the exhaust system and this engine failure, let's all cross our fingers that Mike has a little less drama in the future with his car! Not that I don't enjoy the threads, but it's about time you have some stress-free motoring.
It's Alive...
It's Alive...
It's Alive !!!!
OK, boys, I'm back in business here!!!
Picked up the car this afternoon, went for a good drive, and it is now resting peacefully back in the driveway.
Thank you very much for the support and input from all of you during this ordeal !!!
You bet I am!
Hey, the Esteemed and Honorable Mr. Jake Raby has purchased the blown engine.
Jake, I'm coordinating the shipment with Rebecca. Prolly get it sent out next week. I spent Sunday afternoon trolling a local business park for an abandoned pallet to ship it on, and finally found a good one.
I'm assuming you will perform an autopsy and let us know what led to this motor failure?
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Yep.. Thanks for selling it to me :-)
I'll be sure that we document this one, like always. I'll share the photos with you, and you can do with them what you like. I won't post them to the forums.
Cuda911, if it's not too much trouble, please share some pictures and information about your engine. I would love to hear and see details.
Thanks.
b-man
Thanks, guys! As soon as I got up this morning, I had to go outside and make sure I didn't just dream that the car was back.
Jake, I assume that you are fine with me posting your pictures here, once you've had the case split? Rebecca has been great to work with, very detail-oriented and organized.
Here are some pictures of Jake's new paperweight. I took a few more of the hole so that you can see where it is in relation to the IMSB and chain.
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Damn Cuda. Now I see the problem.
It obviously killed itself out of shame for being that dirty! Did you never drop the engine on the recommended weekly interval to clean it? Poor thing!
When I see the engine like that it does make me wonder how on earth it fits in the car... Maybe the 911 engine bay is like the Tardis: bigger on the inside?
Awesome that the car is back on the road!
So many numbers are thrown around about the $ risk on 996's, it would be interesting to see what this particular 'catastrophic' failure ended up running...
I'd understand if you don't want to share any or all of the details, but I'd love to see the actual or approximate costs on:
Used replacement motor
Shipping
Installation
Extras*
- Holed engine value
----------------------------
Net
*"while your in there" extra costs that weren't strictly required
^^^
I haven't gotten the shop's bill yet. Yes, they let me drive off without paying!
The shop owner was out racing at Sebring, so I'll stop by the shop next week and see what the damage is to my Mastercard. And, I still need to get the A/C system recharged (being a racing shop, they don't do A/C fills... in California, it's a whole 'nuther set of permits and licenses you need).
So, after it's all set, I'll put together an accounting of costs in a similar format as you have listed.
Should be next week some time.
Went for a 100 mile drive today, all seemed good!
Well congrats and good luck. I used to live in Spring Valley, now in Anahiem. I am going through the same thing as you. However I bought my project car without an engine and tranny. I am documenting it much like you in another rennlist thread. I have been sourcing for an engine for the last 5 months. My car is a 997.1 3.8L Carrrera S Tiptronic. Really tough to find a motor. I am considering a donor car, did you ever think about donor cars?
^^^ I sent you a PM with some info.
In other news, at least my dead motor will be "famous" in the Porsche world. Regarding my motor (well, Jake's now, I guess):
I have asked Jake to ensure that only hushed and reverent tones are spoken when in the presence of this dead soldier.
"I have asked Jake to ensure that only hushed and reverent tones are spoken when in the presence of this dead soldier."
I don't know if Jake can/will abide by that request - He is what he is and speaks how he speaks, everything else be damned! Then again, you did call it a soldier, so...
On a more serious note, it'll be interesting to see a step by step "accounting" of the process of your motors destruction (illustrated by photo's). And of course, best of luck with the "new" one. Way to hang in there - you've shown your true attachment to these fine machines!
OK folks, the numbers are in:
Used replacement motor: $9,000.00
Shipping motor from Sacramento to San Diego: $200.00
Installation labor: (remove my blown motor, strip off all components that needed to be transferred over, such as water pump, fuel rails, etc., install these parts on the new motor, reinstall motor): $1,440.00 . Less than I had expected.
Extras: New AOS, new spark plugs, oil, filter, coolant, a few misc. doo-dads and what-nots): $349.48
Recharge AC Freon: $114
Lessons learned here: Priceless.
Total: $11,103.48
Now, from this total, deduct money received for sale of my blown motor (let me ask Jake first if he's OK if I post that), plus a labor credit for a spare 914 targa seal that I gave the shop owner for one of his personal cars, and
net cost is under $10K total
.
Time from day 1 (day motor blew) until I had the car back: exactly 60 days.
Motor blew on November 30, 2014.
Got my car back from the shop on January 29, 2015.
OK, great! I assume you will start a thread to document the motor autopsy? Seems like once you replace his motor and sell the core, you should come out ahead, financially.
Yes, I plan to do a tear down in my free time and that will take a while. Will update you guys when it happens but don't hold your breathe for now.
Will see what happens after that. Making money was never the intention anyway and I'll be happy to break even.
That ain't bad. I mean for what you were facing with a blown engine and factory engines being so damned expensive and all.
I think given the circumstances you did pretty good. 'course, everyone would have wished the whole experience would have never happened, but sometimes you know what happens.
Heck, last month I spent $5300 on my Turbo just replacing radiators, coolant, and then 4 O2 sensors, oh and an oil/filter service too.
^^^ Yeah, I saw that thread. Hey, how's the job hunting going?
I still remember the statement from the guy I bought the car from: "A car everyone wants, but few can afford to maintain." Has proven to be true. I've easily doubled what I paid for the car, in terms of PM maintenance and repairs. But, I regret none of it. This isn't just a car, it's a defining part of my life. Since purchasing it, I have met so many great people that will be life-long friends.
Overall, I'm quite pleased with the outcome. And, the input I received from everyone here has been fantastic.
A special shout-out to DTMiller, for his help in finding the replacement motor.
Check the individual engine parts. The pricing is absurd.
Con rod $1,800 a piece and you need 6
Cams $1k each and you need 4
Crankshaft $5k
Crank carrier $3k
Crankcase $3~7k
Head $3.5k each
I think they are trying to take advantage of the factory of not having anymore engines and what they have left, they can charge a premium, I mean an arm and a leg for.
Oh, slower than I would like, but kind of like the last time, which was over 10 years ago. A rule of thumb is it can take 1 month per $10K of annual salary to find a job. Say one makes $150K a year based on this rule then one could be facing 15 months of looking for a job. Last time it took me 9 months and this time I've only been looking for 4 months.
Had an interview with a local company Dec. 15, just before I left town to take care of some very important family business. The interview went well, but I have not heard back. I contacted a few people that participated in the interview asking for any word and all I got back was what with the holidays and flu engineering positions weren't getting filled as quickly. This is true, but the holiday season is over with and the flu should have run its course by now.
However, this company depends upon the oil patch for some of its business and I suspect the big drop in the price of oil has this company (and many others like it) rethinking the need to add more employees and in fact probably thinking about cutting back on the number of employees the company already has. Not only has hiring come to a standstill, with the employees there I expect there is no little apprehension about their own future with the company.
Another company, a recruiter actually, approached me -- by email -- a while back about joining a start up on the peninsula. We exchanged emails regarding salary vs. stock options and I let him know I was flexible but haven't heard anything back yet.
(Oh, while my Mom and Dad were still alive I had some interest from a company in Chatsworth, CA, another someplace back in N. Carolina, and yet another company in Washington state but of course had to politely decline since relocation wasn't possible. Now that Mom and Dad are gone I am opening up communication with those companies again since relocation is back on the table.)
There is always retirement if nothing I want turns up. While I'm not that old and would prefer to resume working, I can afford to retire if I want to. But I'd like to rejoin the ranks of the employed if I can. What can I say? I like to work.
On a brighter note late last week I got a request from a company in Olathe KS to submit a resume which I did yesterday. I'll follow up later this week with this company.
Anyhow, life goes on. My cars are cleaner now than they have been in a while. And I got a shotgun, 12 gage pump, waiting for me at a local gun shop as soon as the 10 days is up. (It was Dad's. I sent it to my sister, but it proved to be too big for her so she transferred it to me via a local gun shop.) Will buy a hand gun for target shooting soon, to have something to do. Might look into doing my own ammo loading, too. Nothing like storing cans of gun powder around the place to add some excitement to life.
As one who has been there and done that, (I initially "retired" at 55 moved to South Florida and lasted exactly 1 month before deciding I had made a big mistake).
So now 15 years later, I've started my 8th start up.
Don't "fold the tent" simply because you can, do it because you really want to.
Hey, the Kansas City Automotive Museum is at 116th & Strang Line in Olathe. We can always use another member of the board of directors that drives a 996 as do 3 of the 9 directors already. Let me know if you come out for an interview and have time for a beer. And, if there is anybody locally you'd like me to reach out to and I know them, I will be happy to do so.
Macster, glad to hear that at least you aren't strapped for cash and eating cat food while job hunting.
Today I went over to a local shop to get the AC recharged. As I was driving home, I was stopped at a light and heard someone shout "Hey Cuda, is that the new motor? Been following your thread."
Turns out, it was member Lingpoen in his nice shiny C4S.
Great, now I don't have to just be paranoid of the IMSB.
You'll find some dried cat food in the cabinet next to the fridge, for your snacking pleasure.
If you find any kale chips, please take those, too. That was a bad experiment in healthy snacking.
Yeah, was lookin' around for RL stalkers!
Now I know exactly how Justin Bieber feels. Today I'm going out shopping for a hat and large sunglasses so that I can once again go out safely in public, whilst sneaking past my adoring fans.
Mike, congratualtions on getting your car back. Also, good on you for maintaining your patience, humor and sanity through this whole process. I don't know if I could have survuived a situation like this.
Thanks, Paul. Yes, it's been quite an ordeal. I guess I had no options other than to either deal with this with humor, or kick the cat. The cat voted for humor.
Its not even available.. All the factory has to offer these days is a short block assembly, complete engine were discontinued a year ago.
I had a customer last week who wasn't willing to wait for my engine. He went to the dealer and paid 19K for a short block and 11K more for his old engine to be used to complete that short block. They didn't even rebuild his heads before they installed them on the new short block assembly.
His core charge was 15K. He won't know if he will receive any or all of that back until the engine goes to Germany for evaluation- they'll be keeping his 15K for 3 months or so.
Right now he has 45K invested, still has stock internals, still has 3 dollar rod bolts and still has the same thing that he had that failed. But he got it quick, I guess he hasn't learned that haste makes waste yet. He'll make a good poster child.
BTW, you need to buy some new underwear, you're out of coffee, and I deleted all those figure skating competitions, America's Next Top Model, and Downton Abbey off of your TIVO so I could record Roadhouse, Top Gear, and Wheeler Dealers.
Either 1st Choice Auto Center is your shop or they pay you monthly to have that license plate frame in your car!!!!
Now your car looks like Geraldo easy to recognize!!!!
Ha, actually, that photo is from the first day I bought the car, so that was the dealer's advertising plate. In California, you have to wait for the plates to come in the mail. This often takes a couple months. Since obviously the cops have no idea whether you bought the car yesterday or last year, you can basically drive around forever with advertising plates on. I had a car where, as an experiment, I left 'em on for 7 years and never got a ticket.
He asked me to keep that confidential, so I will respect that, since we negotiated the price as a private-party transaction. After all, what is a fair price under one circumstance may well not be a fair price under other circumstances. I feel that the price he paid me was fair.
Hi Cuda
Sorry to hear about your car, looks like part of the crankcase to me and where the oil is i would say your main chain between ims and crank has snapped.
whatever you do dont let the garage turn it over , get the engine out and tear it down, the crankase could be repaired and you might be lucky with the internal damage if it stopped so abruptly.
Good Luck
I just found and reviewed this thread.
What a great outcome for a lousy situation!
When my IMS bearing went [a year ago last dec.] there were/are no engines to be found.
The engine is going down to Vision Motorsports for a rebuild/enhancement.
You are very fortunate.
I was not aware of this forum when mine went.
It is going down to vision [hopefully] in March. If it weren't for inheritance money, this would not happen.
I will start a new thread when I take the engine to Southern Ca. [Laguna Hills] and will include pictures, numbers, etc.
I am going for the full meal deal.
I don't know.. Typically in March of each year I do cost analysis and see if adjustments need to be made. I haven't changed my prices since 2008.
If anything they'll be going up. In the early days my engine was 2X the cost of the factory crate engine, and we stayed slammed; right through the recession, too.
re: "we stayed slammed"...
As you are I'm sure already aware of, if you have way more business than you can handle, if the lead times are way out there, that is a sign you can raise prices.
Sure you lose some business as the price increase drives some would be customers away, but you make more on the business you keep.
And lead times drop which will tend to bring in more business as reasonable turn around times are important to some customers.
There's always an alternative for those who want something sooner. The new SSF engine program will fill the demands for those who want something on demand that has Nickies and an IMS Retrofit without all the other things that make up my engines.
My experience with raising prices to control demand isn't positive. Charge someone more and they become that much harder to please and that much more demanding. Neither of those are things that I work with very well.
I've been at this all of my life and I've learned that profit isn't what can drive a business like this. People have to feel like they got their money's worth and that they aren't paying for someone's success.
Because of that, I'll never adjust pricing to control demand. I am in this business because I want to be, and there's nothing worse than someone saying "I paid xx.xx for this and..........".
The more it cost the less fun it is and the more liability we see stem from each and every encounter that we have.
If this was just a job, just a business and didn't have my heart and soul into it, it could be ran more like any other business and we'd be able to play the game like every other business out there. That's not the case, never has been, and never will be.
My way has worked since 1998 and through the giant recession we grew and added employees while others died. Who appreciated what we do are the guys that want a true development program behind their engine. They don't want something run of the mill that's built marginally and attempted to be sold as what we create. That's what's sprouted up in the last few years and people that don't buy into flashy ads know the difference. You'll never see an ad from us for an engine in a magazine. The last time I ran one was 2009, and that was for 3 issues in Excellence.
In spite of recent 996 IMS failures, are you seeing fewer failures on your end due to better awareness? I'm speaking about frequent oil changes, IMS retrofits, IMS Guardians and of course, robust bearings that will not fail (I figure the IMSB's that are prone to failure are limited and many have already failed). Add in 996 mortality from other events (misc engine failures and accidents) and my guess would be fewer occurrences of failures going forward.
However, time takes its toll, especially on mechanical things. If Porsche no longer has a crate engine for the 996, and the only alternative is a rebuild, Flat 6 or elsewhere, AND, if the cost keeps going up and the 996 value keeps going down, how much longer will people be willing to drop $15-20k into their 996?
I guess there is no question here, just thinking outloud on a gorgeous Sunday afternoon (83 degrees here today). Top is down and I'm taking my baby for a ride in a few.
Anyway, Jake...hope you are feeling better. And Cuda...I hope your break in period is almost over!
The majority of those who call me with a failure haven't been made aware of anything. They don't know issues exist until they start googling after the issue.
Yes, better awareness does help some. Today what we see more and more of is cylinder failures, timing chain failures and cam, lifter failures. My master linked chains helped a lot with those, because we can carry our preventative work.
There's no way to avoid a cylinder failure, so awareness does no good.
We are busier now than ever, and is hasn't slowed at all over the winter. We are busier now,and vehicle value isn't determining point for the program. There are folks on my build board now that have a 5-6K car and they fittin it with an engine that costs 20K to start.
My buyers love the cgar. They want to keep it, and they know they can't buy a car this good for what my engine costs.
That said, I saw more failures last year than any other year yet. We only saw TWO preemptive reconstruction builds all year and we had seen 13 elective builds in 2013 and 15 in 2012.
This year I am trying hard to score preemptive work rather than failures, but its not working. I filed my 40th 2015 failure into the log report from a consultation on Friday.
Well, I don't know that a break in period really applies to a used motor, but I've been taking it a bit easy for a bit. Haven't been much over 100 mph. on it. So far, have driven about 400 miles on the replacement motor. No funny sounds, etc. Feels and sounds exactly like my original motor, which is a good thing.
While there should be no need to break in a used engine you are wise to treat the engine a bit easy to begin with.
The engine is an unknown to you and you want time to develop some confidence in the engine that is it going to be ok.
You are in effect giving the car/engine a shakedown. I do this after every service and especially a repair of some kind just to ensure nothing's amiss.
I almost hate to ask, but are you going to treat the engine to an "early" oil/filter service?
Yeah, a bit overly paranoid here at the moment. Every funny noise I hear puts me on "high alert" mode. So far, it turns out that every funny noise I have heard has been coming from another nearby car.
I usually do my oil changes every 3k miles. If wisdom suggests an earlier one for the first change, I have no problem with that.
Well, I don't know if I'd call it wisdom, I was just wondering about an early oil change thinking it would give you a chance to have a look at the oil filter housing oil and filter element for anything possibly scary.
Not trying to sow seeds of anxiety just playing the conservative, the extra cautious card.
OK, gotcha, Mac.
Got confirmation today that the shipper picked up my blown motor on Friday, so it's on it's way to Jake's.
Hopefully we will soon know what killed the motor.
Yes, thats 40 documented, in my failure log, since Jan 1, 2015.
To be fair, I will say that at least 8 of these had failed over the summer and etc and are just now being reported, as guys try to figure out what to do with tax refunds.
Yesterday I added two failures to the log, both were low mileage 99' 996s and both had cylinder failures, the calls cam in within 50 miles of each other and within 7 minutes of each other!
I don't know if you can get a running 996 for $5-$6. What a roller is worth is another story so saying they are putting $20K engines in a $5-$6K car is a little misleading. A running 996 is usually around $15-up now days and that's what the $20K engine needs to be compared to.
Have to agree with the logic. That was the reason I didn't sell my car as a roller. They are worth nothing without a running motor. That thought process worked for me.
It seems that Renold had a batch of soft chains in 04, that's the only reason I can think of. We have caught two 04s in the process of losing chains while evaluating for our IMS retrofit procedures.
The 02 is the worst for valve seat failures and guide wear. The early 03 is the same.
And with that clarification the later production 03 996 is the most wonderful, indestructible 911 ever made justifying a premium price! Right? Well, it was worth a shot.....
The weather HAS BEEN BRUTAL ! here on the East Coast and from what I understand, it's stretching quite far to the south as well. It looks like Cleveland is pretty close to the N. Georgia Mountains area so that could have an effect on traffic/trucking patterns... Maybe we should start a pool on when the motor will get to Jake's shop? Date, time, over/under (before/after), damaged, undamaged...etc. Any gamblers here? (I thought we were all gamblers with the 996
)
The engine arrived on Monday of this week. It'll come apart next week.
With the weather we have had many issues, matter of fact this is what the approach to the facility looks like today.
The 996 having the engine so far back and with proper winter tires or even with just descent tread all seasons/summers will have excellent traction in the snow.
The last pic is exactly what just happened to me in a 2003 Boxster 2 days ago, same hole in same place- what a shame...i had bought this car to drive it for fun and resell it didn't really believe they were such pieces of garbage till now
Tarek,
Your hole wasn't the same.. It was in the cam cover, not the block, like this one was.
Update from the morgue:
The engine is apart and it suffered a major failure. I'll post pics as soon as Kaley gets them uploaded to the file. The engine snapped the IMS drive chain tensioner paddle. Its hard to tell if the main chain is what shot through the case, or if it was a piece of the tensioner paddle. The block is toast and even the crankshaft, since all the chain slack heavily damaged the IMS drive. It also bent every valve, spun the drive on the IMS and etc. Its on the way to the scrapyard as soon as I finish the post mortem report.
I was wondering the same... you mean my motor? I'm wondering how all that damage could have been caused with no noise other than one relatively minor "thunk." One would think that damage would have sounded like an airplane falling on a house, or like Meghan Trainor, or something.
Interesting. This may be one more argument for a MK1 engine!
All I know is I haven't driven my car much in the last month but drove it today and damn if every time I drive it I fall in love with it all over again!!
Yep, your engine looks almost just like that one from 2009. I have seen this a few dozen times since then.
The plastic wear button was in ALL 996s, even the MK1! The only engines with a steel button were early, like 97 and early 98 Boxsters. I have seen one ROW 98 Euro model 996 that had a metal wear button, but never a US/ Canada model. Porsche had already had an accounting audit by then and realized that metal part was costing too much.
Cuda, did you ever hear chain rattle at start up with this engine?
Nope, never, not once. And, I'm among the paranoid group that is ALWAYS listening for "funny" sounds.
I suspect that it was the chain that slapped through the case, based on the chain imprint on the chunk that was knocked out.
So, to understand this better: As the tensioner button wears, the tensioner can't do it's job, so there is too much chain slack, and the slack chain flails around and breaks the paddle? Then either the slack chain or a piece of the broken paddle hits the case and busts through.... is that a correct summary?
.
And there's the missing link.
What happens is this:
-The plastic wear button wears, usually due to the chain beginning to gain slack through wear.
-The wear button becomes so thin that the hydraulic tensioner goes out of range
-The hydraulic tensioner ends up over extending and exerting too much force on the tensioner paddle
-Things scatter
The OEM tensioner paddle is a weak link, BUT in this case the primary mode of failure was chain wear, its what created the entire issue and allowed things to go out of range in the first place. All the rest was collateral damage.
Interesing chain reaction (no pun intended). Could the wear have been caught by monitoring the cam deviations? With so much chain wear, the cam deviation should show a large value or at least some flutuations?
Nope, because the deviations don't exist between the banks of cylinders, since this issue retards ALL the cam timing, not just one bank. I have caught a few of these in process by mistake during IMSB qualification processes and the symptoms were very hard to note. I caught one chain almost ready to snap, only because I found one small piece of debris in the sump that came from the chain.
Some things are a silent, symptomless death with this engine. Tick..Tick.. BOOM!
Good old LSx is looking pretty good at the moment. Somewhat regretting swapping my C6 for this car. But then again for the difference in cost I could do a LSx conversion should my M96 fail.
What I meant is the cam deviation on each bank reported by Durametric, and not deviations between the two banks. The cam deviation on a bank reports the deviation from the expected relative position between the crankshaft (flywheel missing tooth as the reference) and the camshaft reluctor on that bank. So if both banks are retarded (with respect to the crankshaft), then we should see very negative cam deviations on both banks? Of course aything more negative than -6 to -7 degrees should have tripped a CEL.
The issue is the deviations won't always be there. Only ate certain RPM (around 2700) where the chain isn't happy, will the deviations really show up.
You may have mode 6 values stored in the ECU at 6-7 degrees, but it won't throw a CEL until a 14 crank degree situation is experienced. The Durametric isn't capable of reading Mode 6 values, or seeing pending codes.
Put simply, I see cars here daily with blown engines that don't have a single stored code, or an illuminated CEL, and most all of them were "ready" meaning they hadn't thrown codes that were recently cleared.
The OBD port doesn't show most mechanical problems. People think that it can, and thats why I am booked for a year. These issues require a "mechanic" to solve them, not a "technician". That means engaging the ears, turning on the common sense, and opening up the tool box for something that doesn't have a cord attached to it.
Another note to self...
The sample rate may or may not be enough to actually show you anything. Thats why I use stand alone data loggers, not depending upon OBDII unless I want them too..
Durametric is much faster than OBDII and if you log only bank 1 cam deviation, bank 2 cam deviation, and rpm (but not graph them in real-time, which will be slow), it should have no problems returning tens of samples per second. Then you can do post processing analysis.
Will be difficult to use a standalone data logger for cam deviation as it's computed by the DME in real-time based on both the cam position sensors and crank position sensor, which are pulse signals. I don't even know how a standalone data logger can log pulse signals, let alone processing them and compute the cam deviations.
Got your point about it may or may not show up. If some something weird shows up, at least that tells you something is wrong. If nothing bad shows up, the test is inconclsive.
A purpose built logger that can use OEM or other sensors can do this, and I have done it. I use these things to develop camshaft profiles and plat against cylinder pressures, or even use transducers in the exhaust to plot changes as well.
That said, this issue would have been found by doing a good, old fashioned sump inspection, more than likely. The sump had a ton of material in the outer edges of it that were very small, and those bits of debris are characteristic with every worn main drive chain that we've seen.
This engine was also NOT qualified for an IMS retrofit as the sump plate had not been pulled off as recently as the engine had been retrofitted. Thats classic. If that would have happened, more than likely this issue would have been caught.
Makes sense. I think we need a sump that has a big screw-on CAP that one can easily remove (with a tool) that is large enough to inspect any debris inside. Then we can check it at every oil change.
Not necessary.. The IMS Guardian monitors this all the time and chain material is ferrous.
BUT I have pulled off a sump plate in another country, in someone else's shop, using their tools, on a hot engine and swapped it out in less than 40 minutes start to finish and was back on the road. You only need 3 tools to do the job.
Every single car that we see, for ANY reason, has the sump pulled, filter pulled, and gets the finger test.
The sump plate is the window to the soul of the M96/ M97.
Gotcha. I thought you also meant chain pad material (non-metallic). The IMS guardian is definitely be ideal for this application then. I'm starting to think it's wise to install the IMS guardian just to detect these chain issues (in addition to IMSB issues) on the M96, regardless of whether one has already addressed the IMS bearing.
Jake,
I'll be swapping the sump pan on my car, in the next couple of months. I'm assuming that any accumulation of material in my sump is a bad sign, but regarding tensioner pad wear, is the material non-metallic?
Thanks,
Jon
I wonder if an oil analysis would pick up on the PTFE (Teflon) from the chain paddle (guide) wear ?
Also, would strong magnets on the filter housing attract the chain material for inspection?
Are the chains made of ferrous material or are they some type of non-magnetic stainless steel?
Paul
Jake mentions in post 726 that the chain metal is ferrous and then indicates the IMS Guardian would detect it.
I would think a strong magnet would attract ferrous debris. How would you use such a magnet?
Magnetic drainplugs are commonly used this way already.
Nope, I've never seen any indication of this. I carry out about 400 UOA per year between my engines and development, and the work that we do for Gibbs. The materials simply are not monitored in the testing regimen. The best way to find these issues is by pulling the sump plate.
The material is seldom small enough to make it through the oil sump pick up screen, so it will never end up in the filter.
The first key is to get rid of the junk plastic filter housing, with it's horrifically designed filter bypass. You can then run a steel bodied filter and a Filtermag easily. The filter mag has been around for 50 years, but no one in Porsche circles ever knows about them.
Heavily ferrous.
EVERY engine I build has a spin on filter adaptor, using a steel bodied filter, coupled to a magnetic drain plug. Its been that way since 2007.
"Jake, what's a finger test?"
Well, I'm certainly not Jake, but if I had to guess I'd say - wipe your (clean) finger around the bottom of the sump plate then rub it together with another finger on the same hand...If you feel any grit/rough stuff in there besides a smooth oily feeling, you can bet that your bearings, crank journals and anything else in your motor with tight moving tolerances can too
You got it...
And if there's any debris there, its time to say bye bye to your main and road bearings. Why? Because that debris laden oil has a one way, non-stop ticket straight to them.
If I find ANY debris in this area, I won't touch the engine.
Family gathering in Cordova at my sister's house. Just thought I would throw out a little tribute to the King.
Heading to the Bass Pro Pyramid, then downtown and Beale Street later today.
Thought about seeing if any Memphis Rennlisters wanted to do an impromptu cars and coffee get together Friday morning somewhere while the rest of the world is trampling each other to death on Black Friday. That way I could show off my rental minivan. But, that seemed like work to organize, so, you know.
I wouldn't be able to do a cars and coffee on Friday anyway, especially if there was going to be a MiniVAn there.
Actually, already had plans anyway.
I know you are from KC, but if you wanted to try the BBQ, the Blues City Cafe( think that's the name of it right on corner of Beale) does have good BBQ. The other "popular" places to me aren't that good, but that one is.
The're some other's you should try as well, if you want some suggestions.
Mike
Well why shouldn't we be continuing a thread 2 years after it started and over a year after the motor in question was replaced?
Mike should be document every second of the new motor's life with pics, images, and 10k word essays
We have to keep this thread alive until Mr. Raby posts the promised pics of the dearly departed deceased M96.
Well, just about to take the new motor out for a spin today. Wish me luck!
See, this is the kind of thread that scares a guy like me looking to buy a 996 to death! Have the day off from work and just got done reading all 52 pages. This thread just convinced me to keep looking another couple of months and use the time to save up some extra $$$ to get a low(er) mile one, but even then, no guarantees....right?
You bastard! I hope your stockings are all filled with lumps of coal on Sunday.
I was hoping 2017 would be the year we wouldn't have to listen to KC go on about that, but now it will be months before he shuts up again. Thanks ***. Thanks a lot
You're welcome! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too. Showed off my mad mspaint skills here. The first 3,000,000 millions copies of this are available for FREE download right here on Rennlist.
True that...It was an epic battle for nought! Big Brother came down hard. It has become
boring
and all techie up in here now. Many are missing. Only safe way to post off topic in this forum is to include "IMSB" or face possibly being sent to the cornfield. Careful...
IMSB...
Well, no need to worry about that anymore. Hacker killed the fun by sending a thread with three quarters of a million views and 17,000 posts to the Abyss. What a dick move. So, enjoy all of the tech talk now.
I completely agree with KC here. The mods have turned into a few wet blanket, debbie downers with no sense of camaraderie. Nobody here wants to have to go hunt around in a non-996 sub-forum general discussion section just to have a non-technical conversation. The 996 forum was (past tense) like a small car club that had common interests, frustrations, and a sardonic sense of humor. Constantly removing non-technical threads (especially "good week in the 996 forum") was just a lame attempt to pacify people like KrazyK. They'd probably deny it, but since he complained to the mods about our vocal destain for him, they had no other option in their minds than to ban people, remove non-technical comments, and close threads. I wonder how many people have left and don't bother with the forum anymore? Unless, the mods back off, I'm done with this place too. I don't even own a 996 at the moment, but have enjoyed BOTH learning about the 996 cars AND most of all, the camaraderie among friends. Sadly, many have stopped logging into RL because of this. I hope someday they realize that being a part of clubs and forums are more about relationships, fun experiences, and community than these silly machines themselves.
Lots of us don't come here, nor care for the off topic talk. It's very annoying having to sift through pages of bull**** to get the answer you're looking for. And almost every thread where the "usual suspects" start up in, it turns to absolute **** in no time.
Well, I disagree with you on that as the OT stuff was overwhelmingly posted in the Good Week thread. That's why since it was sent to the Abyss, the activity in this forum has plummeted. And frankly, I just don't care enough to argue about it. I spent way too much time on Rennlist because of that thread, so it's really a blessing in disguise as I spend maybe 5 minutes three or four times a week on Rennlist now. Despite your assertions, the "usual suspects" were generally the first to help out on answering questions posted in the forum and possessed a lot of knowledge about the 996. Maybe we don't have the expertise that Jake or Ahsai have, but a lot of helpful answers were given by that group, especially in areas like buying and selling, PPIs, and other popular topics not related to rebuilding an engine - all you have to do is go through the old threads to see that. But, it's done, you're happy, the mods are happy, and I don't care. It's not important.
Naw...not today! Should I worry about not hearing anything today, even though I didn't start it? Should I mouse proof it? Do I need to pull the engine and detail it completely using a tooth brush? I have driven out of the driveway in the past! OH CRAP! I'm doomed! Does this mean flat bed to a dealer or what...?
BTW IMSB!
I agree with everyone that make sense here. Those that don't get it, don't have to. That was an overreaction by stubborn hall monitors on a power trip. That thread was not only fun and unpredictable, but I also suspect that it caused a number of people to spend more time per day at this site. Those same people would then peruse the rest of the 996 board, or the one that was specific to their vehicle, and then participate in sharing information on another thread that they perhaps would've never seen because they won't visit again until they need their own questions answered. How many hobby/enthusiast sites do most people belong to? Out of those, how many people visit them everyday? I belong to a few. I don't visit them daily because I don't require information about them daily. I certainly don't need information about my Porsches daily either. Suddenly shutting down a four year old thread that enjoyed multiple posts daily was no better than the host of a party standing on a table and urinating into the punch bowl simply because they can. "Hey! Thanks for your membership dollars. Drink up!"
IMSB
You make disparaging comments on something we put a lot of effort into and it's all good. I make a remark about something you put a lot of effort into and you squeal "mods!" I knew kids like you in high school. Luckily I don't have to put up with them anymore in life.
Nobody asked for your opinion on this thread or invited you to this conversation. And since it's non-technical and you are against non-technical threads, there is no reason for you to chime in.
Nope! Especially harmless fun. It's just to bad some people can't laugh at themselves or others being entertaining.
IMSB
too
to͞o/
adverb
1
.
to a higher degree than is desirable, permissible, or possible; excessively.
"he was driving too fast"synonyms:excessively, overly, over, unduly, immoderately, inordinately, unreasonably, extremely, exorbitantly, very;
informal
too-too
"invasion would be too risky
IMSB
many will not laugh at themselves.....they are dead serious about where to put their cell phones,parking on a angle,lawn sprinkler under car for washing,injector cleaner every 1 k ,opening engine cover and running fan after every drive,detailing after every drive,what fragrance for inside [summers eve] etc ......they walk among us
Hey man... tell us your car in back home for Christmas. Is it? Surely it's not still in the shop. If so, I would charge the insurance company every day you've had to spend without your 996. Give us updates man. How long has it been now???
Eggzackery the problem! I think others try to get those types to realize the silliness of their seriousness over trivial matters. It creates butthurtness in those serious types. Life is too short to let everything cause drama. Laugher(even at oneself) is truly the best medicine.
Oh crap...almost forgot IMSB!
Hey all, sorry to be the poop in the punch bowl, but I'm going to lock this thread so that it doesn't get abyssed. We can try and start a new shenanigans thread and see if it lasts.
^^^^ Thread Locker^^^^
EDIT: Ooops, almost forgot, "IMSB!!!"
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
