Did my first DE!

The other day I did my first DE at Blackhawk Farms. I was definitely nervous going into it, as many of you may know from one of my previous posts. But man, what a great experience it was! I will definitely be doing more track events. Getting to push the car in a way you just can't on the street was eye opening in many ways. The first eye opening way is finding out just how much I need to learn, and the second is just how capable the car is. I was certainly no Senna or Stig out there, but in a couple ways I did surprise myself. Now for the bad part. The car got hot. Way too hot for my comfort and I cut each session short. Probably twelve or thirteen minutes into the twenty minute sessions. It was not confidence inspiring seeing the temp needle climb up to the right tick mark. I had the heat on full blast in the cabin and that didn't seem to have much effect. I did have similar hot temps on the Tail of The Dragon last year which prompted me to replace my water pump and thermostat. So now I'm seriously looking to adding a center rad. The oil pressure did dip a little bit as well on some of the turns, like the long left hand sweeper. I was focused on driving so it was difficulty to peel my attention away from the track mid turn, but I did manage a glance or to and it was probably at about 2.5 bar or a tad higher. I'm guessing this might also be because of the higher coolant temps becaus I'm running street tires and not pulling some insane Gs. And then tires. The Continental Extreme Contact Sport tires I'm running are pretty good on the street, and were decent for the first few laps on the track. But after five or six laps they definitely got greasy and the old gal's heavy a$$ started sliding out a bit. Nothing crazy, but enough to get my attention. And I know these aren't track tires, and I didn't purchase them with that assumption at all, but I'll definitely be looking for recommendations for new shoes for the car. I'm considering going back to Pilot Super Sports, which I had on my Boxster S, and found to be great rubber for carving up canyons and mountain roads in SoCal. Ideally I want some rubber that will last a decent amount of time and be okay for a few track days. The novice group that I ran in was very full. I don't know exactly how many cars were out, but it felt like a ton and many people were not very good at all with giving point bys and were jamming up traffic. And honestly it was a little scary being around some drivers that seemed like they were trying too hard and were on the verge of spinning or going off track. But all in all it was a great experience. And KrazyK was wrong about the 996. It didn't blow up after turn one. It was just such a pleasure driving it hard and learning more of what the car can do. I can't wait to keep exploring the car and learn a lot more about track driving.

My first DE was at Blackhawk. And my car (then, an 88 911) also got too hot. But you are safe and sound and so is your car, and that's the most important thing. People forget that these street Porsche's are designed at the very edge of weight, reliability, and performance. So just add a decade or two and it's no surprise that temps gets up there a bit. PORSCHE = Plenty Of Receipts, Sorry, Can't Have Everything. Just about all these 996s get hot and/or drop pressure in some turns. It's "normal dysfunction," and so is our "normal paranoia" about them. As much as we know the 10 things that can kill this car, there are many folks that track them without issues. But isn't it wonderful that you did this event and experienced it? Beginners are surprised by the capabilities of their cars, but others cars, not just Porsche's have this feeling as well. I was following my buddy's E46 M3 around the track, and you can be sure his car produced a very similar feeling as our 911s. I rode in a GTR that day. Same feeling, only more acceleration, more corning force, better braking (although for braking, it's hard to beat a 911 quite honestly), I always ran street tires on my DEs and didn't have the greasiness issue. I have Michelin AS 3+ now and was amazed at how I couldn't get the rear end or even the front end to unstick very easily. I probably wasn't pushing it enough either (2:54 at Autobahn ain't exactly fast). My biggest complaint about DEs is the variance in driver skill. The problem is that people get to pick their own skill level most of the time, which is backwards.

Look at RE-71R's for use on the track and driving to and from the track And you need to know, It's a very slippery slope

Congratulations, glad you had fun, and welcome to the slippery slope!! I would not recommend the 3rd radiator. It adds weight, and for DE purposes, is not really needed. I've run DE in 100+F weather at VIR open track with 30 or more minute runs with out any overheating issues. In short, if you are overheating or close to it, then something is amiss with your current cooling system. Spend your money instead on troubleshooting and fixing the system. You've replaced the thermostat and water pump, might be time to look at the radiators. For tires that turn greasy after several laps, you might try playing with tire pressures on your current tires first before playing with different tire brands. Cheaper that way For street tires, some recommend raising the pressures a few pounds to keep the tires from overheating. Some also say check your tire pressure immediately after coming off track and bring the pressures down to the recommended cold pressures. See which one works for you. As to the run groups and inconsiderate drivers, you'll move up as you get more track time and you'll start running with better people. Some clubs are pretty strict in enforcing passing rules, black flagging offenders to give them a talking to in the pits, then kicking out repeat offenders. You'll find out which clubs run a better DE than others in your area, and you can then stick with those clubs. Have fun, be safe, the properly maintained 996 is a great track car!!

Congratulations on your first DE I am in my second year of doing them, and it is ton of fun. As someone mentioned previously, adding the third radiator doesn't sound right. More likely you have some other issue that should be corrected. The oil pressure drop maybe helped with an X51 oil sump baffle. I would also suggest getting a pair of GT3 front air ducks to help keep the front brakes cool.

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Those are great tires.

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also my first DE at blackjack. I was in group 3 in the seal gray 2003 c4s #635. I rebuilt the engine several months ago myself and last week I put in an Ln 2 quart sump kit. Engine temp few few mm to the right of 0 of 180. Oil pressure at idle pulling of track side of needle was touching 2 bar. the only problem is I went wide and caught a rough area with my left rear tire. I either threw a weight or bent the rim. When I got home I heard an engine noise. I might be the internals of the cat loosened up. I played with the psm , I turned it off, but realized it wasn't intruding unless I really screwed up, so I turned it back on. Used ate 200 brake fluid and stock pads. No problem. It's an amazing car! Glenn

You don't need a third radiator, yet. Engine overheating after less than 20 minutes of hard driving? Something in your system is not operating correctly. You should be able to drive your car across the desert for hours doing 85+ mph in 95 degree heat without overheating. If my former stock 1984 chevrolet cavalier can do it I'm fairly sure a Porsche 996 is designed to do it.

If the light didn't come on it's not overheating. Make sure your radiators are clean between the condenser and the radiator. You can also add a bottle of Water Wetter and that will help as well. As for the GT3 brake duct comment, the issue with them is the are designed for a much larger rotor. So you end up channeling a whole lot of air to where your rotor would be if you had a GT3.

I dunno, the right tick mark on the temp gauge might be 230F or more. That's going to be putting a lot of pressure on the cooling system to keep from boiling. That probably also means oil is near 250F. I agree that it might not technically be overheating, but sure seems warm and would be too warm for my comfort as well.

Thanks everyone for the great responses! I'll definitely be doing more DEs, and down the slippery slope I'll go. Murphyslaw, "PORSCHE = Plenty Of Receipts, Sorry, Can't Have Everything", I've never heard that one before but it rings true! And yes it was a little dissapointing having to run with some people that didn't understand the concept of letting you pass, even after they had gotten multiple blue flags. Again, I definitely belong in the novice group, but I still think some drivers should maybe be in an extra novice group. Palting, thanks for the tips! This week I'll be pulling my bumper off for another round of cleaning the radiators. What ways, aside from big gaping holes and damage, can I visually see if my radiators just need to be replaced? During normal day to day driving, and even some of my "spirited" back country road driving the temps usually stay pretty center in the gauge. Stuck in really bad traffic on a hot day or spirited driving in especially high temps (like I experienced at the tail of the dragon) brought the needle fairly far to the right. I know the light wasn't flashing so it wasn't "overheating", I just get freaked out seeing the needle tilting to the right of the third line. JayG I'm going to look those up, thanks! One other thing I do need to change on my car. The seats. In the turns my butt was sliding, despite the fact that my helmet clad head was partially keeping me place since it was lodged against the roof. I have the fully electric seats, and they just ride too high for me. Finding some manual sport seats is probably going to happen in the near future. Not quite ready for bucket seats, as I like to be able to tilt the seats forward to put stuff in the back, as well as the occasional small human passenger.

250 is fairly standard for oil temp on track. DT40 is only rated for 240, that's why it is not recommended for track use. This will help some with the sliding: CG Lock Performance Add-On for Your Seatbelt CG-Lock https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0010E7OB8..._4F8tzb6QBP5FT As for better street/track seats, I'm struggling with the same thing for my DD. My track car has a halo seat which is awesome. But I would like something that was fairly comfortable for daily use and would accept a 5 point harness for the track.

Lower Tstat?

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Was this with the MKEPCA? Beginner and Novice groups have instructors but the way your comment reads its sounds like you didn't have one. The reason I ask is because the instructor should be watching the mirrors and telling the student let the faster car pass.

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Of course, that would help in general, but may not solve the problem of the rads being dirty or just having low efficiency. I won't put the low-temp tstat until I have a reason to flush the system.

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Those are the ones who should stick to Autocrossing. Glad you had a good time overall. Good advice given here and once you sort out a couple of minor issues, you'll have even more fun. I always liked Blackhawk - it's a really fun, short track. Be sure to watch brake pad wear as Blackhawk is hard on brakes.

I was at Blackhawk on Friday for a shakedown run getting ready for the next club race. Your experience with point buy's and traffic is pretty normal for Blackhawk in the novice group as the events there attract many new drivers with no track experience. I make a point of standing at the start finish flag stand at some point during the novice run groups and they do a good job of policing the run group to keep everyone safe. Keep at it and try to make the Gingerman 2 day event at the end of July. It is a very relaxed event and the track is not as congested

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It was Track Night in America hosted by Scca, so no instructors sadly. But for the money, still a bargain to get an hour of track time for a hundred fifty bucks!

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My understanding with the thermostat is that once it's wide open at temp it's just wide open and the standard vs. low temp won't make a difference in that regard. That's why I was thinking of the third rad since I've read others have used them and found the temps to stay lower. But I do plan on taking the bumper off tomorrow and cleaning out the rads again and inspecting them. I did that late last year as well, and there was a ton of crap in them, but I would bet they hadn't ever been cleaned before then, since I found a bit of newspaper in their from 2002 lol

During a 50-odd mile loop yesterday I peaked at 221F for coolant temps on steep switchbacks, then quickly dropped back under 200F on the downhill straights. Then hovering around 195-200F on the highway back. It seems the 2-radiator setup does a good job of cooling when given a chance, but things get hot in a hurry when there isn't much airflow hitting them (<50mph).

I did my Track night in America 2 weeks ago. My oil pressure sensor was all over the places, so I took it easy and cut session short to cool down. last session of the day as I pull off the track after chasing an evo I got the 'low oil pressure' text message but not the light. It came on for a second and went away. My oil pressure gauge was showing just a hair under 1 bar but it quickly went back just a hair above 1. 200 miles home without problem. I do think my oil pressure sander has failed since it shows 1 or 2 when I have ignition on with engine off and it does this brief jump every once in a while at idle. Wanted to post about Temp though. The ambient temp at CMP that day was 101f first session and the last session of the day was still 98F. My temp went to the right edge of the 0 of 180 but never went higher. the drive to the track it was at the left edge of 0 of 180 and on the way home it was actually just a hair left of the 0. After I got home I also found a very tiny leak on my bank 2 cam actuator as I was inspecting the oil pressure sender to look at the leads before I replace it. Now I am sure I have to replace the sender but I am debating if I should try to replace the actuator cover first and see if that stops the leak or go ahead and replace the actuator while I have the cover opened... Engine drives fine and no problem through the rev range.

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Geez, I hope there's not much junk in there from only 1 year ago, or else I'll have to be pulling bumpers more often than I thought

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Thats exactly how mine ran at the track, although my ambient temps were in the 70s and 80s, way lower than yours.

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mine ran the same. Did Tracknight in America at Thunderhill where ambient was 104+. Car ran just to the right of 0. Then I came in and noticed the reservoir was leaking. I bought low temp tstat, water pump and expansion tank and will put that in this weekend. Gonna take the bumper off and clean proper too. I freaked a bit at the temp gage position too. But will see what happens after I get the cooling system checked out.

You guys realize that Porsche programmed this cool little light to come on when it gets too hot by their standards, right? Just make sure you are using an oil that can handle the higher engine temps of track use and you will be fine.

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Thanks Slakker for the reality check. Too much forum reading for me. I will however try your suggestion on water wetter.

Glad to hear you had fun -- regarding tires, you almost certainly built too much pressure while on track. The best way to prevent that from happening is to come into the pit area from the track once you feel them getting greasy to immediately bleed off hot pressure, then go back out. You likely only need to do this once per day if conditions don't change dramatically.

fwiw, I did a track weekend at NJMP. My 99 boxster has the stock 2.5L with a third radiator, 160 thermostat and a new waterpump and the coolant temp would go to 102c and stay there. This is basically me being at WOT the whole lap (not much power in this car). I think the third radiator is a good idea. It weighs practically nothing, its cheap, and it helps. Now if I could keep the thing from smoking halfway around the track from the AOS, I'd be in business.

Get your oil level to mid point on the dipstick after sitting overnight and without starting the engine. Your AOS smoking issues will disappear.

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That's good to know

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afraid not, running lower oil levels didn't help unfortunately, but I appreciate the advice.

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Step 1 is to check the pressures before going to the track. Then, as suggested above, come in and check pressures when you're done to see how hot it got. If it is too hot, the temps will tell you.

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When I read the Hartech documents on these cars, they explain that the same or similar radiator and cooling design was used throughout the entry level small 2.5l engines (220 HP), all the way up trough the 2.7, 3.2, 3.4, and 3.6 engines that make 100 more horsepower. So just adding 746,000 more watts of power to the same cooling capacity is one reason why these higher HP cars can get hot. You 102C sounds about perfect. I can't think that a 3rd radiator would hurt anything other than the added weight, and seems like a good idea, like the low-temp tstat is as well.

Then keep replacing it until it stops. That's not normal behavior for 996 or Boxsters. 36 track days and I've never had a smoking issue with either of my 996s nor have I seen Spec Boxsters that smoked.

that is the current plan.

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Im wondering if it eould be possible to run a 997 tandem pump that creates vacuum. then just run a hose from that to the aos. that way no possibility of oil ingestion

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Quadcammer, I track both the Boxster S and the C4S you see in my sig, AOS smoke comes from start up after a hard run, and only for a second or 2. I have NEVER had smoke during a hot lap. There should be NO smoke while on track. If your Boxster S smokes while running on the track, there is something else wrong. Modifying the AOS won't fix it.

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Slakker, I was always under the impression if it got hot enough for that light to come on, you were pretty much at the point where damage was happening. With the thought of cracked heads and such I would poop my pants if I saw that light rear its ugly little head. I'm sure I could be being overly cautious, but with how expensive it is for new engines for these cars I guess I'm just geared to err more on the side of caution.