Succumbing to getting the whole shebang done - where to go?

So, I have had a 2001 911 C2 with 75k miles for the last two years. I love driving the car but haven't been able to get past the looming catastrophic failure time bomb that is the IMS bearing. Whether the fear is rational or not at this point is irrelevant because I can't turn off the part of my brain that worries about it. I would like to do the whole IMS, RMS, AOS, and clutch service and just be done with it. I just got the estimate from Flat6 and they are asking $4900 for just the IMS solution and another $1000 or so to add the RMS, AOS, and Clutch. I'd also have to cover shipping to and from. That said I was wondering if anyone has used someone within an hour or two of MEMPHIS for a similar service and how that experience went...and about how much it cost?

Hi Handsome Rob, Have you read the M96 "50 ways to lose your motor"?

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Here's a list of the Certified Installers: http://theimssolution.com/certified-installers/ If you want it done right and warrantied select one of these shops.

I can't believe no one has asked for pics........

Looks like Flat 6 is your closest option. If you are going to keep the car for a few more years just suck it up, pay the money, and go for it. Since you're getting "the solution" from Flat 6 the car will be more desirable to buyers in the future. These cars ain't cheap. I just spent close to $4,000 replacing most of the suspension on mine at 120k miles.

If your goal is piece of mind while driving, Just send it to Flat 6 and pay the freight. Yes, it's a few bucks higher, but think of how you will KNOW that it was all done right, and you can enjoy your car fully on the other side. disclaimer, I've never spent a penny with them, likely never will but Jake is a Marine, so unless you really **** him off, I think you'll be very happy with the outcome. Sounds like you are going to keep your car for > 10 years. If it cost you an extra $1000 to have it done there, that's a $100/year amortized. Can't buy insurance for less than that anywhere. If you drive 100,000 over that ten years, it works out to 10 cents a mile for the next decade. Buy Dunkin coffee and stay away from Starbucks, and you'll pay for the extra in a year or so. pfft

Those prices are a little on the crazy side. I had my IMS AOS RMS done for $2200 Mechanic said my clutch was essentially new otherwise would have been $2900. Shop around- find a local Porsche tech/ mechanic and build a relationship with them.

HandsomeRob...has anyone ever mentioned you are very handsome? Oops... I just went thru this decision this month. If you go to this thread... "Dropped the oil sump....w/pics...thoughts..." go to post #36 and I describe what I had done, where I had it done, I have photos of my receipts showing costs. The 2 links I included show the IMSB product and also the RMS product they invented. Their RMS product is more than just the seal itself, it includes a housing which they developed to fix another issue. Vertex Auto where I had mine done is also EPS. It is 20 miles from me in South Miami. They invented their own IMSB product "External fix with oil pressure feed". I actually shook the hand of the man who developed it. Disclaimer: I just had it done a week or so ago, so I have no long term info. But I was very impressed with the entire group of people there. The inventor walked me thru a working model they had set up there of how it works. As you will read it is a life time fix, not a rip it out in 5 years or 75K miles and replace it. IMSB, RMS w/housing, AOS, and new clutch including new flywheel, was $4,300 out the door. Feel free to PM me. Leave your number and I am more than happy to talk particulars.

...just to be clear, you don't have to have it done here in S. Florida. They sell a kit which can be installed by others. I'm sure if you called, they may be able to provide a shop in your area who uses there products. I felt better having the shop that invented it, install it. Probably is what pushed me into using it, along with location, truth be told. Kind of like having Jake at Flatsix install his "solution" right there in his own shop by his guys.

$5,000 for a solution install? Curious what that breakdown looks like part: $1,700 MSRP labor: 10 hours @ $200/hr (premium for a premium shop) = $2,000 unicorn semen, generous helping: $1,300

Have you dropped the sump and looked inside or cut open an oil filter? What has you so wound up about driving it, funny noises?

I believe Flat6's price is for their "ultimate total life time never need to do it again solution" vs just changing the bearing to a newer design. I would venture that the cost also includes qualifying the engine as well. Whatever IMSB system you chose, Jakes or someone elses, it is equally as important who does the work. I wouldn't want to just buy the part and then give the job to someone who has only done one or two...or even three or four. I'd want the best tech that money could buy because this job done badly is worse than staying with your orginal factory bearing. And that leaves you with the same night sweats plus less a few thousand dollars. As for the other items on you list...there is wisdom in the old saying, "if it isn't broken, don't fix it."

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Solution + 14 hours labor including clutch, RMS and AOS = $4.7K at a certified installer.

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Sure, I'm well aware of the nature of the bill. I went through that exact process in June of last year (and am very happy). My critique was directed at FSI charging $6-7k for a job that similarly trained techs can economically offer for less. Notice how OP notes $4900 for Solution only, then $1k+ for AOS/RMS. There's a lot of meat on that bone.

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The unsuspecting victim.

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The abundance of information has what has led to my downfall. I'd prefer blissful ignorance.

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the filter has been clean. The only issue the car has is what appears to be a lifetime of very minimal oil leakage. Not enough to hit the ground but enough to coat the base just south of the RMS/IMS. The records have a "shaft seal" replacement under warranty...and this could be indicative of the crankcase not being perfectly in spec from the beginning or just a bad seal. Every blue moon I'll get a very small puff of smoke on start up. The chronic oil leak has always bothered me. close up of the oil build up...

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I understand that the clutch and AOS aren't broke, but the car is on the original clutch as far as I can tell and at 75k miles it has served the car well. The AOS is a $250 add that would be $1000 more if it needed to be done by itself.

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You are not alone. it's irrational, and unlike me but I have worries as well. My car runs, great, I have an early build date, dual row, low temp t-stat, but I still face the threat of being one common failure away from a $12k bill. No matter the percentages being low, there's always that little voice when I drive; 'is it this mile? Is it this mile? is it this mile?'. So far, it's great - but I'm a lousy gambler.

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Basically the $4900 for the IMS Solution is a $750 deposit for 4 hour pre-inspection. $1850 for the Solution, $50 for oil disposal and shop fees, and $2250 for labor. They do offer 10% off for PCA or Rennlist members. So, I should have said $4410.

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me

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Man, that's just mean!

I used to be a worry wart but not any more for two reasons. My car is a '99 with double row bearing. The other is I've been watching a bunch of Renegade LS conversion videos and will check out there shop next week when I'm in Vegas. I figure if my engine blows I'm doing the LS swap. Heck, I'm thinking about selling my perfectly good engine and just doing the LS as a preventative maintenance item!

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Thanks for the breakout, that makes more sense. I don't know what his overhead is so I'll just keep my mouth shut after poking the bear too much already. I'm no LS-critic, but broooo.. the sweet tune of the flat six is half the fun!

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Dude, for the love oh humanity, don't do this. There enough cross-dressin' confusion in our world. Just look what happened to Bruce Jenner - a.k.a Mr. Wheaties ...now he's more like Fruit Loops!

And they're not cheap!

They are far too proud of that LS engine swap for my tastes. If the feces strikes the air moving device I'd rather just stuff a 3.2 Boxter S engine in there for a few sheckels and keep driving.

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I know you're from the South (I am too), but Jenner's led one impressive life all nonsense aside. Stud athlete, good tastes in cars, puts around SoCal in a GT car. Cool by me.

Jack Raby's solution seems top notch... I was skimming his home page, and noticed that the warranty is immediately void if the car EVER goes on a race track, even for HPDE... I can understand why that's so, but, that really limits what you can do with your car if you want the warranty in effect...

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multiple divorces, runs over and kills an animal activist with his big SUV, says he's not attracted to men, but believes he is really a woman, yadda yadda yadda... oh he got ***** (or does he or she or whatever). But the worst of it is that he really likes the taste of Wheaties! Weren't we talking about LS swap? hahaha

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We were talking about LS swaps, until the bigoted southerner interjected with a fox news diatribe. Pro tip: There's enough room on this blue ball for the both of you. Grow up

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...Classic... He feels self shame for secretly being attracted to him/now her... So he has to talk sh@t.

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I know this is a German car forum, but the open expression of perceived superiority is a little much. Perhaps the admins will have me affix a yellow star to my avatar? I'm pretty sure they roll with your tribe.

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if you don't like innocent banter, then get outta the kitchen Tony Billy Bush two blue *****! Ha!

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Hey, I'm not the guy with billboard sized 991 graphics on a 996, bashing transexuals on a right-leaning German car forum. Whatever floats your boat, guy. Just don't expect everyone to lap it up.

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Tony, Your elevator doesn't stop on all floors does it? You got the wrong 996 numb-nut! Apparantly, you don't know the difference between transgender and gender confused. But let's get back to car talk shall we? Or do want continue this textual fiasco?

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I think the issue is that you don't like the floor we're on. Notably, not being a bigoted d!ck. Kapish? You don't have the "P O R S C H E" badge on the back of a 996 cab?

^^^^Geeze you guys get a room......you sound like me and my favorite Marti(a)n.

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He would need special assistance to find it.

Yes, the LS is a bit over priced in my opinion, but surgery ain't cheap either, unless you only go half way with it!

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I also have a Turbo front bumper and aero side skirts. Now who's being bigoted now?

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Such a smarmy c vnt

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. Enough Tony! End it. The more you rant, the more your self righteous principles lose validity. Translation: hypocrisy

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We're all hypocrites, FYI. I choose the curative form rather than the injurious :P

...

Can someone grab their guitar and break out with the kumbaya, stat!!

Dang, I knew the mere mention of an LS swap would get the natives riled up (oops, it that politically incorrect as well? ) but I didn't think it would raise quite that much ruckus! Anyway, while I do love the sound of my 3.4 flat six, I have been a hot rodder since the 70's and love the sound of a cammed up, lumpy idling V8. Not a novice when it comes to swapping out engines either. The Porsche engine has adequate power but I certainly don't have to worry about detached retinas when I dump the clutch. Yes, I know this car isn't all about power but then why did they make a TT version? And like Mario said, "You only have enough power when you can spin the tires all the way from one curve to the next"!

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You bring up a great point but how about this: sell your 996 and buy a 996TT. The cost difference is probably not far off keeping your 996 and doing LS conversion.

IMS(LN single row pro)RMS, AOS, Water pump, thermostat, belt, coolant, LN spin on filter, Porsche update coolant cap. All with loving care and a certified LN installer here in Ohio. 6yr/75 for the IMS before I need to touch it again and the clutch was like new.(only 12k miles on car) $3400.00 and some change.

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I've defiantly thought about this as well. My car is worth what $16K to $18K? Whats my engine worth, $4k to $5K? Also have a stainless exhaust system I could sell. I could get an LS and do a rebuild for maybe $6K all in. Then Renegades kit for like $3500. I think I could do the swap for under $10K. I'd still have my Brembo brakes, shifter, and other mods in a super clean 66K mile car. What would a TT go for? Could I get one for $26K to $28K, even $30K with equal miles? Besides no IMS, do they have any other issues similar to the M96 engine (AOS, water pump, etc)? (More than likely, I'm just going to do basic PM stuff to the existing motor and drive the **** out of it. If it blows, then I'll worry about it! ).

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Defiantly, eh?

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Oops, damn spell check! On second thought, maybe I am being a little bit defiant about it!

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Prolly would want to avoid it or someone may find you sacrilegious.

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Thank you for the useful feedback... that seems very reasonable for everything you got done. Ohio is a bit of a hike from here or I'd be setting up an appointment. So, after getting all that done... tell me about the drive home without that lingering fear of hearing the death rattle.

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That is pretty disappointing on a couple of levels... I can't believe I missed that for one... and HPDE isn't like 24 hour Enduro racing... I would hope that the IMS Solution would be robust enough to handle 20 minutes of hard driving at a time.

Maybe Jake can chime in. He tracks his car and I'd like to know why ones warranty would be void. What would the potential issue's be?

http://flat6innovations.com/index.php/engines/warranty Read the warranty... Unless I am missing something? Says the moment you touch a track, no warranty applies on their motors... Is it the same for the ims upgrades? Can't say for sure, perhaps jake chimes in...

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It's not about the Solution so much as it is the risk of another mode of failure cascading & destroying the engine. Misdiagnosis could then be sent back to him with the expectation of fixing it, which is risk he'd rather not live with. The FSI engine line has track-oriented builds that use the solution for extensive tracking. I had it installed because the idea of turning a major weakness of an engine into a relative strength is a no brainer for long term ownership. I take mine on long drives out west & for safety as much as convenience, reliability is a biggie. So far I've done 5 or 6 1,000 mile trips and have only been stranded once near home by a $13 coolant joint. It's been a reliable car for me, but I won't be tracking it. I don't really value the warranty on a product like the Solution that highly. Installation is thorough & the design was used on the air cooled cars that experienced very few ims related failures over quite a large pool of cars. If your risk is that low, imo you should focus on other ways to keep the engine running a long time (good oil, driving style, diligent servicing, etc).

Providing warranty on a track engine would be a huge risk. The variety of care, maintenance and use is too large and impactful. That being said, I know Jake has done a lot of "no charge" work on his engines that weren't under warranty. That way he gets to do it because he values his customers, not because a lawyer can force him to. It also allows him to walk away without recourse if the guy is being a total douche about it.

I'd never consider a warranty on any engine going to the track. Once a vehicle leaves public streets of highways, the user assumes responsibility for life, limb, and engine. Its a big boy sport where risks are real. My program has always been this way, even with aircooled Porsche engines. My up front way of doing business keeps everyone honest from day #1. No finger pointing exercises here when someone misses a shift and wants me to pay for it. This has worked for me for the last 22 years, and it doesn't take a warranty to sell a well- proven engine. Not once have I ever placed a written warranty on any engine used for AX/DE or competition. That said, if an issue pops up, and the person isn't demanding, turns into a jerk, or expects me to do something, they might be amazed what can happen as much as 5 years after the build date. I'm not big on warranty, I'd never even think about asking anyone to guarantee anything for my own track car, where I am in control, and they are not. Everyone won't agree with this, and they aren't supposed to. Yes, I do state this absolutely up front, and in bold letters in every single proposal that I use when engaging with potential purchasers. No punches are pulled, and no fine print is written. If someone wants a warranty on the track, there's lots of liars out there that'll tell them what they want to hear. Will they actually stand behind that generally worthless piece of paper? Thats the question. There are people out there who buy a product only for a warranty. I've never cared about filling those orders. We spend our time creating things that don't break, and don't need that piece of paper.

Sure, you can get a good look at a steak by sticking your head up a cow's *** but wouldn't you rather ask the butcher?

An unlit candle frightens no monkeys.

Did you include the water pump replacement? This are fairly critical too. My Porsche Tech guys tell me replacement every 50k miles or so is a good idea. Water pump impeller failure can/will break an engine.

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Absolutely, I discovered Mode Of Failure #2 and documented it before anyone else. Water pump failures create many engine failures every year. My preventative packages in the early days used to mandate that we change the pump. Now that I've trained close to 1500 Porsche Technicians worldwide it has become a cheap, common fitment that local shops often do before the cars come to us. Like the AOS we had to "break out" the water pump from the packages a couple of years ago, and create them as add on items, along with the clutch. In the early days the cars always came to us as virgins, so things were simpler. Today its not as straight forward, and a lot of molesting has occurred, too. Change the water pump every 3 years/ 36K miles, and you'll stay safe.

That makes perfect sense.

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I figured I'd go ahead and do an oil change myself before I take it to someone to get some work done... I think that the filter looked good. Just one super small sliver of metal. What say the interweb experts? You Tube

Those specs are not to be dismissed. The smaller the pieces, the more damage they do as they suspend in the oil and are delivered everywhere. Some of those pieces look like cylinder wear debris. I expect them not to be magnetic. Its hard to say without seeing it, though.

That small shard as you call it would have me concerned. Something is shedding metal.

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you are correct on the sliver not being magnetic. Here is a video showing it a little better... especially how thin it is. I am sending the oil to Blackstone for analysis and will report back. I requested the test kit about a week or so ago so it should be here soon. I took a sample of the oil mid-change as instructed. You Tube

Have you dropped the pan?

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I haven't... safe to assume you think it is warranted?

I sure do. You don't want those shards flowing through your engine. You may have bigger pieces that the screens have caught.

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This week I sent the oil to Blackstone for analysis... I have ordered a new filter and a case of DT40. I am looking to drop the oil pan this weekend or next and see what I find and post pics for anyone curious. If I do find anything more serious.. then I will certainly look to the experience on the forum for some guidance... but as a guy that admittedly knows very little about internal combustion engines in general...much less p-car engines... I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the seriousness of one minute sliver of aluminum caught by a filter after 5000 miles. Would 20 pieces of that size over 100000 miles really be enough engine "wear" to cause an issue?

Don't be concerned with the ones the filter did catch. Be concerned with what the filter didn't catch. The stock filter bypass arrangement sucks. Debris comes from somewhere. If you don;t find, it will find you, and your wallet. As I have said dozens of times before, be more concerned with the small particles. These suspend in the oil, and are transferred throughout the engine by it; delivered exactly where they don't need to be. Chunks sit in the bottom, and don't move. Don't worry. If you wait long enough, and the planets align, those small particles will generate big ones.

I agree...one little shard wouldn't seem to be a big deal but... maybe not. I have sent oil to Blackstone. I am a big fan...they do a great analysis and are thorough. Keep us updateded.

Here is my report card.

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What is the best way to check filters if I get that LN spin on?

this is what I have, but I use this on large diesel oil filters and aircraft filters, you can find them in the 40 dollar range on Amazon. once you cut the can off, use a box cutter and cut out the pleated filter element and inspect. Amazon Amazon

Here is my update. I put about 1500 miles on the car since the oil change with Mobil1. I am sending another sample to Blackstone to see how it looks. I already had bought a case of DT40 on Amazon for this oil change but next time I will buy my DT40 From Jake and get his oil analysis. Anyway, I dropped the pan and other than the bits of plastic (I assume chain guides)...the pan was clean and the pick up tube was clean. I cleaned the previous sealant residue from both sides of the pan and cleaned the pan with some brake cleaner and bolted it back up gingerly (had no idea how little torque was needed for these bolts). No chards in the filter this time and so far I can't make out any metal specks yet since the filter is still wet. Well, when I was videoing the oil pan and didn't see any metal I was happy thinking that the plastic bits of chain guide were relatively normal for a 71k mile engine... but the more I search for similar pics.. I am thinking that these bits are larger than "normal" and I am concerned. I still am planning on a significant service bill soon to address my IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump... and now maybe the chain guides. Any feedback is welcome. You Tube

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So, my latest analysis. Question is with this only being a 1200 mile interval...are the metals (Aluminum and Copper) still a little too high?

You can't judge the wear metals at only 1200 miles. At that point the oil is still so fresh that it will fight mechanical wear a great deal. Try a 3K interval and see what happens. Looks like Mobil 1, though..

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You are Correct on the Mobil 1... but it does have DT40 in it now. I actually wouldn't have changed the oil so soon (at 1200 miles) but I really wanted to drop the pan and see what secrets may lie there. Turned out there was nothing metallic... but there were a fair amount of chain guide bits. However, those plastic bits may have been there from the beginning for all I know. Regarding the DT40... It could be almost a year before I hit 3000 miles, what would be a max amount of time to wait to change the oil? Thanks for the help.

I wouldn't call those chunks of chain guides normal. If you had that much after 1200 mi. I would be concerned. If you've got that much (or more) again after your next oil change (3-5k) I'd start formulating a plan to change them out...

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Those chips of chain guide were likely there since the car was new...I only could make out one "bead stain" of sealant on the top of the sump plate so I don't think it has been dropped before. I also didn't seen anything in its maintenance history that showed it was taken off. So that is more likely 75000 miles worth of chain guide wear not 1200 miles. Also, I have opened up my last two oil filters and each only had one or two very small (1mm?) chips. I would think if those chips in the sump were "fresh" then my filters would have a lot more debris. Speaking of debris to update.. my filter I changed at about 5000 miles wear did have some specks of metal and that one sliver... but my last filter had no perceptible metal specks. I did HPDE the car a couple times during that 5000 mile interval... and didn't at all during the 1200 miles. So, the HPDE could have been the hardest the car has ever been pushed and it may have either caused some unusual wear... or flushed some specks out given the oil likely got sloshed around more than ever? There is a long sweeping right on the track I HPDE that is enough lateral G in my E36M3 to get fuel starvation (known issue with the fuel pick up on the right side of the tank) with 3/8 tank on track tires. Edited to add... I was on street tires so it wasn't "oil-starvation" G loads (disclaimer, this painfully slow lap was two years ago when I first started doing DE's).... You Tube after linking the above lap that was really slow, I have gotten quicker (now doing TT with NASA), here was my lap last week at Track Night in my E36M3 albeit on Maxxis RC1's... You Tube