Preemptive LS Engine Swap?

I waffle back and forth between: 1) Yeah! I have an awesome and unique flat 6 engine that sounds phenomenal, and 2) Oh no... I have a ticking time bomb engine that is unique and difficult (sometimes impossible) to repair. So that being said, given some of the prices I have seen recently (check out the Hoovie post), does it make any sense to preemptively swap out a perfectly fine 3.6 (or 3.4) Porsche engine for a V8 LS engine? Here are the numbers... Renegade Hybrids 996 conversion kit: $3,895 Renegade Hybrids Electric water pump kit: $1,195 Used but good condition LS Engine: $5,000 Labor for install (guessing): $2,500 Total cost: $12,590 SELL Used and good condition 3.6 Porsche Engine: $8,500? NET COST: $4,090 More power sounds nice. Better reliability sounds great. V8 rumble is a decent alternative to H6 scream. I wonder how long the clutch will last with the greater power... Inexpensive oil changes sounds good too. I think I'll stick with my Porsche engine for now... but what would you do? (feel free to correct any of my numbers/assumptions!) Swap Source: http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

I think its a great idea, and I hope lots and lots of 996 owners do this!!! Just not me. I'm hoping that 996's will be converted to LS swaps with the same fervor that Jaguar owners made GM swaps back in the 80's and 90's. That way, "original" cars like mine might go up in value more and quicker.

I watched multiple videos related to 911, Boxster, and Cayman LS swaps. Based on what I saw, you will want some of the additional renegade conversion components, more than you have listed (almost everything in the three lists). I totaled about $7500 worth. I think $2500 is too low for labor. Most of the DYI installers I saw spent a lot of time on it (months), particularly with sorting electrical components. I think your net cost will be closer to 10k, assuming you source a used LS motor. $8500 may be a little high for what you would net out of your 3.6, but if you can get it, that would get you the overall net 10k. I think my 911 will always retain a flat six. I would love to do a Cayman S LS conversion though.

Or you could just do the IMS and regular maintenance on the Porsche motor and enjoy what it is.

I think that a V8 is going backwards in engineering and what the cars built for is curves, handling and not straight line racing, the power curve for that V8 will be abruptly in your face, not sure how that will work around curves in a Porsche. This is my opinion only.

I already have an LN IMS and a preemptively replaced RMS and do the maintenance myself. But reading recent stories about coolant intermix (cracked head) and oil consumption (scored cylinder) got me to thinking...

I understand where your coming from, is this your daily driver, If yes then I guess the utmost reliability would be a concern. I can't really tell you much, but My opinion only is that your going backwards in engineering and that V8 is kinda caveman Barney rubble to me in a Porsche, it probably would be better to cut a big hole out the bottom and self propel yourself like Fred Flintstone instead of a V8. I out grew that ***** hanging hot rod cam bumping good gas high compression V8 days, those days was fun when I was young, but now it's about the refinement of excellence and not ***** out American Muscle

Refreshing topic...

Hotrod: I drive the 996 approximately 3x per week, so ultimate reliability is not essential. (I have an Infiniti G37xS sedan for inclement days.) But, getting suck with a 5-digit repair bill does have the potential to keep me up at night!

I know where your coming from, I stepped out on a limb with my 996 and that limb was tiny in the beginning. But As I've addressed and maintained and replaced worn, broken , not my styles parts, The limb is now large and growing, once I address the engine point failures and bulletproof them as with anything, that limb I'm standing on now feels rock solid, after the suspension then It's a solid reliable limb to stand on.

As with anything mechanical, when it fails catastrophic it's going to cost money no mater if it's a ls1 or a flat Six

I've had 4 vetts, from crossfire injection to Supercharged Lt1, to the ls1 and beyond, they do come apart just like any other engine will if not run and maintain properly , but it's that Ls1 sounds that will be redonkulous coming from a Porsche

Sell me the 996 and buy a corvette.

That would be something to consider instead of the hack job, you can pick up a ls1 Bette cheap

Drive the car and quit reading forums.

Quotes source post: 14221433

This was my thought. If it's all about having a Corvette engine and saving money, why own a Porsche at all? Buy a Corvette instead. No assembly required. Okay, some assembly probably required, it is a Chevy...

I had an LS swapped RX7. Don't be fooled, swapped cars NEVER seamlessly emulate the original "togetherness" of the engineered original setup. It always feels like a "swapped" car. My rx7 had 20,000+ in the LS swap, and it was still a swapped car... felt swapped, and behaved swapped... I wouldn't do it if you love your car the way it is. If it excites you, drives great and makes your heart beat fast just enjoy it. If you just want a V8 something, buy a C5 vette for 11k.

My plan is to keep driving the car and if I have a major engine failure most likley do an LS3 swap. I thought about swapping with my engine running so I could recoup some of the cost. But I really enjoy the engine.. The only reason I would swap is if my engine failed.. For me ill just ride it out doing my maintenance and if something happens ill go LS3..

Almost 2yrs and 10k miles on mine. This car gets so much attention and is a blast to drive. The Sound is like no other. The torque is unbelievable. The positives far outway the negatives in MY opinion. https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...onversion.html

Quotes source post: 14221176

LS engines are compact and light for the power they make. From what I've read, the dynamics of the car don't change much with the swap. But as others have said, I vote to keep it all Porsche. If you're that worried, sell the 911 and buy a Vette.

DSCN3191_zps10wtoo99.jpg

Quotes source post: 14221655

A video of your car would be nice. I for one, would be very captivated.

Mark Wilson: Best advice ever! Ignorance is bliss!

Better yet, go try a Gen 6 Camaro SS. Can be had with a manual, 450hp, awesome chassis. Less than $40k new with a warranty. After having rented a couple of times now I am seriously struggling to avoid trading my 997 for one. Going to try to make 'both at the same time' work somehow.

Quotes source post: 14221176

I understand this is an opinion, but suggesting that a small-block Chevy is inappropriate for use in a 996 because the M96 takes longer to make power isn't on the list of potential down sides I've come up with for LSx swaps in the past. Choosing an engine because it's too slow to be dangerous seems like less than straightforward reasoning to me, regardless of whether the car is intended to go in lines, around corners, or any combination of the two... As the keeper of both an LT1-powered Corvette (the old LT1, not the new LT1) AND an M96-powered Porsche, I think the hardest thing to get used to for me would be the drastically different shift points. Going from a 7K RPM redline to 5K eliminates what I consider one of the 996's most enjoyable aspects: the second-gear sweet spot. There aren't many San Diego AX courses I can remember that required more than a few seconds in third gear. Changing to a motor with a 5K RPM redline would require a fairly significant change in driving strategy. The feeling of the car pulling hard all the way to the rev limiter is one of the things I enjoy most with the 996 (and the 986 before it). My type-1 over-rev count would be sufficient to scare away anyone who might be interested in buying my M96 to fund a preventive swap; I don't think I'm willing to drive the car less vigorously in order to make the M96 worth as much as possible to the next guy. I do like the idea of having money to spend on a new engine, but the idea of my engine being DONE when I'm done with it is also fun to consider.

If you can fabricate you can do this swap easily. I did mine on a 41k mi 03 ims victim and counting the car i did it for less than 15k. And as far as going backwards...dont knock it till you drive it. I have driven both and the smooth idling ls power delivery is best decribed as " the perfect storm of power,torque,gear ratios and a fantastic chassis" And dont worry only the 996's still in the "wrapper" will go UP in value."......

Quotes source post: 14221684

Not really - but not buying into hysteria is certainly bliss.

I did a engine out IMS, AOS, Coils/plugs, Water pump, belt, thermostat, Tuners DOF and all water hoses I'm feeling my car will go 100,000 plus Just like so many 996's posted on eBay and auto trader

fun factor: highly modded 996TT > 996LS1 > 996M96

I've been thinking about the 996 LSx swap since before I bought my 99' cab. I haven't done it, but everything I've read seems like it's a reasonable swap. The only negatives that I've found so far appear to be the loss of cruise control and a lower than optimal final drive ratio in the 996 gearbox. Modern LSx engines can redline at around 7k rpm, but the low rpm torque would probably translate to being able to exit some corners in a higher gear at a lower rpm while still accelerating hard. Guys that have ridden 250 and open class motocross bikes will probably relate to the previous sentence (less shifting between corners on the larger displacement open class bike). And there is no weight gain, so there should be no adverse handling issues due to that aspect. The advice of selling the 996 and buying a Corvette doesn't wash. I've owned Corvettes, and they're a completely different driving experience from the 996. They're a blast, but they are a different animal altogether. I ended up buying a 996 turbo to keep the cab company and to scratch the horsepower itch, but there's a part of me that still wants to do a swap on the cab. If I can get to Vegas on Friday on the weekend of the Vegas run, I want to swing by Renegade just to do a little more research in person. I'm just thankful that I'm already backlogged in other projects, so there will be no impulse buying while I'm being blinded by their intoxicating V8 bling. And as far as ruining the value of the 996 for future collectors... who cares? Drive it like you stole it and enjoy it. It's what they were designed to do.

GMs' LS and LT engines aren't as low tech as some believe. I wouldn't change the engine out unless I wanted more power, had an engine failure, or wanted to make a change. Otherwise, selling the Porsche and driving a Camaro or Vette is not anywhere close to the same thing as an LS swap. There are few downsides to an LS motor. It make tons of reliable power and can sound glorious. It weighs the same as the flat-6. But as of right now, there still isn't an easy swap method and therefore that's the main reason why it still costs so much to do.

I do like the sound of the M96. And as good as it sounds inside the cabin, passersby get an even better auditory treat! I have no doubt the LS can sound good too. And it is double-take material to hear a V8 rumble coming from a 996. But I drove the 996 in this morning. Even though I got stuck behind a bus, it was a great drive. Plenty of power (seriously, I hardly want for more here), easy to rev-match, reasonably fuel efficient, smooth and seemingly unstressed. I am well satisfied. So long as I skip reading the occasional horror story on the "interweb" I should be fine!

Here's an example of a GM motor in a Porsche: You Tube

Quotes source post: 14222927

Good man!

Quotes source post: 14222940

Gawdallmighty!

Quotes source post: 14222940

I think that "tuned V8" may actually make one's eardrums bleed! Yikes!

Quotes source post: 14222562

I realize this is pathetic and juvenile, but just once I'd like the 996 to do a burnout as well as my Corvette. I think an LSx swap or a whole lot of dish soap are my two options.

Quotes source post: 14223351

Sounds great at idle but probably way too loud for my tastes.

Some people love hotrods and others are purists. My brother can't keep his hands off screwing around with a car's original design and engine. I'm completely the opposite. Neither of us has ever saved any money following our points of view. And we are both happier being true to ourselves.

why not preemptively buy a ****ing 996 Turbo and quit whining? oh yeah, it won't save money and actually just represents additional financial outlays to compensate for one's weak mind.

Quotes source post: 14223822

That's the best general advice most people give when folks want more power out of a 911. It actually might be cheaper to buy a 996TT than to modify an NA car with a GM motor. A 996TT aren't depreciating any longer. So you get back what you put in for the car cost, which is going to be way better than sinking five figures into an NA car.

Quotes source posts: 14222762, 14223384, 14223822

Cruise is retained on '99 and gear ratio kept MPG reasonable. My front tires couldn't keep the car stopped while doing burnouts. Pushed the car 20+ feet before I let off. completely different cars at that point and an LSx C2 can be had for cheaper than a 996TT. But god do I love modded 996TTs. My 996c2LS1 was 2800lbs.

If I had to approach this game all over again I'd just buy the same model with a rebuilt engine and decent maintenance history. Buuuut, if an LS-swapped C2, C4 or C4S was up for sale nearby, I'd certainly give it a test drive.

"Cruise is retained on '99 and gear ratio kept MPG reasonable." Thanks. I'm glad I was wrong. Now I want the conversion even more. Maybe it's an excuse to build an LS engine and have it on the stand. You know... just in case

A lot of the guys I track with have LS engined cars, many of them have blown up already and did full rebuilds. YMMV

Quotes source post: 14225345

True but in that case you don't have to go on a 6 month waiting list to get the engine rebuilt. You can head down to Ed's Muffler and Cheese shop and pick up whatever it is you might need even if you're in the middle of nowhere. I love my M96 but if I were in the situation of needing a replacement engine I would consider all of my options if I wanted to keep my car long term.

That is true, but I'm not convinced they are anymore reliable than a Flat6. I've pushed more corvettes off to the paddock than porsches. ​​​​​​then again, most of them are over 500whp

AWDGuy, any engine can be blown up, dont care who made it. They are not indescribable, F1 on down they are just mechanical and prone to breaking.

completely realize that. you're talking to a guy who has done his fair share on engine swaps in many different cars.

All this talk on engine failure makes me wonder... how many miles are considered "high mileage" for the M96? For more mundane engines, its not uncommon to see 200,000 or 300,000 or even more miles without a major rebuild. Is the M96 similar (I suspect not)... or is 150,000 miles A LOT? Without starting a whole new topic, who knows of any still-running high mileage 996 (non-turbo) engines?

Quotes source post: 14225761

100,000 - 200,000 miles is what a lot of cars seem to last, with some going well over 200k before needing a rebuild. In the grand scheme, if you don't preemptively kill your m96 with user error, they don't seem to be nearly as bad as the hype. Of course, there are guys that buy failing motors that were victims of either neglect, idiots thinking it's smart to not retrofit single row bearings (see the new thread this week of the 03), etc. I don't think cars that die on the track after 100s of hours of track work are premature deaths - after all, they tend to die of fundamental problems with lubrication, drivers ignoring low pressure, and the like. My car has 85k now and I'm planning to budget for a rebuild at 150k.

That's garbage in my opinion only, wtf

If you can't afford to fix a Porsche, then let the one who can buy. If you love your Corvette engine so much, get a Corvette for the love of God. This is only my opinion and I earned it. I'm glad the guy likes his Porsche now, but that sound and that crap straight forward V8 sound is so garbage, makes me want to puke. SMH , my opinion only, I know what's dog crap to me and what's a turd

Quotes source post: 14225887

You're welcome to design and build a better flat 6 or another engine platform. I'm sure the market will provide compensation for such services. After all, we are not communists.

I've had all the go fast stingrays built, the c5 , c4 and a c3 built with Memphis race heads service engine when I 14 years old. Yes I even have Corvette tattoo on me for life. I'm a Corvette Man true and threw, We have a 65 vette now with a big block running good gas. But the V8 in the Porsche is only for whoever wants it that way, but yes that sounds horrible in a Porsche and it's blasphemy

Quotes source post: 14225907

I'll get right to design that engine for ya. Me and some guys was talking last night. Maybe we will disassembled and cryo all the parts and see what happens. Work on Jet Parts

So we both dig the Corvettes. I spent a chunk of last week drooling over LT5 C4s and have a latent ambition to buy either a late year C4 with those smooth lines or a C5/C6. Any comment on what your favorite is & why? I understand C6 is ideal for track, C5 for absolute value and a C4 for collectibility and hotrod feel of the LT5.

I liked the 96 Lt1 Corvette, but the C5 is just way better all around in my opinion, do get the z06 platform it's worth it in my opinion

Cool - my pop used to have an 01 Z06 with some suspension bits. That was an absolute blast to drive. Felt like there was an actual bear under the hood that wanted to attack you. Quite the visceral beast! Seems like he had the right idea all along.

2001 are great cars in z06 for sure.

The c2 tho is our only current Corvette, Now it's just a beast but very very offensive now in public, makes me feel like the dude that lights a cigarette around kids and I don't smoke lol , while I'm driving it. Everyone looks at you sideways because of the offensive noise, so loud and it's running 116 leaded race fuel, burning folks eyes and spitting raw fuel and Oil at them while there walking the sidewalk, , We have totally moved away from America Muscle now. Only reason the 65 is around is because it was My Dads car. In fact We have a straight trade lined up for a 1977 Porsche, just have to get together

Quotes source posts: 14225345, 14225895, 14225895

Stock for stock, the LS has a better chance of survival than the M96. But yes, LS motors have many of the same cost-saving designs as the M96 that require some changes before tracking the cars. I think you're missing the point, it's cheap power to swap in an LS. The ONLY other way to get LS power and potential is to get a 996TT, which costs 20-30k more than just the car vs. ~$10k for an LS swap. The 996 n/a cars are cheap, so cheap car that likes to self destruct + cheap reliable power makes it a good candidate. I owned a C5 FRC, after my LS996, as a daily driver. It was cheap fun but a ****ty car and the GM electronics left me stranded 3 times in my 8 months of ownership. I replaced it with another 996c2. That has to be the worst idiom ever.

Quotes source post: 14225122

It's all about the line locks.

Quotes source post: 14226064

The C4 Corvettes are as close to free as matters. There are a lot of turds out there, but Chebby made nearly 22,000 C4's in 1996 and about 360,000 C4's overall...so there are plenty of good ones out there.

Quotes source post: 14226558

hot diggity dog. If I buy one I'll buy a second AAA account with my dog's name.

You guys are great, making me laugh

Quotes source posts: 14226577, 14226615

trufh. 315 fronts couldn't hold my Viper You Tube column lock, ignition switch and million C5 grounding points. C6 fixed a lot of this BS. Widebody C6 > FRC/Z06 C5 > base C6. But LS3 C6 is quick for the money.

Quotes source post: 14226603

I had a friend who bought one for $800. And it ran. Otherwise in poor condition, but the damn thing was a running and driving C4 Vette.

We bought a C4 last year for 1100 every single switch and button was fully functional. The thing leaked a lot of oil from every where. The lights would not pop up like they should, but it had a set of wheels I sold for 800 on eBay and she drove good. I cleaned it up, sold the glass top and wheels. Put stock tires wheels back on it and gave it to my nephew. Car is still running perfectly fine, brother told me tires are costing him a fortune, lol!!!

The 911 is one of those odd designs where a lot of engineering has been poured into it to make it successful, and it has been more successful in competition than it probably should have been. Oddly, the very first 356 built in 1948 was mid-engine. I don't know why the production cars were rear engine. It was probably because they were cheaper to manufacture using existing VW parts, and given the low horsepower at the time, there wasn't a significant impact on performance. I will keep my 911 flat six powered since it is part of the heritage and "engineering marvel". I can see the 911 transitioning over time to a performance GT car in between the Cayman and Panorama. Once Porsche stops holding back on putting the highest performance engines in the Cayman, it will become the performance leader. They are already dabbling with this in the Cayman GT4. I have stated in a couple of threads that I would like to put an LS motor in a 2006 - 2008 Cayman S. I think there is no sacrilege in doing this since Porsche has intentionally held back on the Cayman. I am sure the 996 with an LS motor is an awesome machine, it's just not for me.

I put an LS3 crate motor in my 2000 C2 track car after blowing the motor. I got the 525 bhp version. Big cam so a little rough at low speeds. But the motor is very linear and easy to drive on track. The power and torque is great. Doesn't burn much more gas than the 3.4l it rep;laced either. It red lines at 6500 as apposed to 7200 rpm but I can stay a gear higher in a lot of spots. I don't regret doing it. It's a blast to drive on the track and definitely surprises people. Not sure I would do it my daily driver though. I have a 997 turbo cab that I daily drive.

Quotes source post: 14237628

What was the cost of your LS swap? (If you don't mind me asking)

Quotes source post: 14225531

No, they're not - but I can't quite put my finger on the word for what they are .

Quotes source post: 14225934

"Through and through," amigo.

Here is a LS1 swap i could get into! http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-jaguar-xj-coupe/

Quotes source post: 14242356

Yup, I've always thought abought this since the late 90's.

Quotes source post: 14237890

Sorry for the late response. I honestly don't know. I had it professionally done. Great install, very clean. Looks factory and haven't had a single issue in the 13 track days I've done so far. Scared to look back and see what I spent...

I've thought about this myself but will ultimately stick with the M96 unless it blows up. Then would have to really debate LS vs M96 rebuild, take out engine or Raby motor. I do get a kick out of the guys that say the LS swap is a step back in engineering because the M96 motor is such an engineering marvel!

29 modes of known failure on the M96 How many on the LS?

Quotes source post: 14262594

Didn't keep my 2006 GTO with its LS 6.0l 400HP engine long enough to find out. Got rid of the car when I couldn't find a place that would service the thing without the tech or lot rat (valet) taking the car out and beating the heck out of it. I recall some time ago when shopping Corvettes current owners raising Cain over all the issues with the LS engine then.

Quotes source post: 14264027

Can these even be found for cheap anymore? It's a sick drifter, supposedly. And I think pretty rare these days, no?