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YOUR RESEARCHSo here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
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Replace by original owner
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
My car is an 02 C4 Original IMS, already had 2 RMS and 2 IMSB flange seals replaced by Original Owner.
So here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
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Leading evidence: 'Replace by original owner' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check do you think you can get me' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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So here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
Replace with the ln dual row
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Replaced with the LN dual row for a single row car...
So here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
Check do you think you can get me
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Suggestion
So, you old ambulance chaser, what kind of a check do you think you can get me?
So here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
Clean too
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Suggestion · Original poster
Mine was definitely full of oil..seemed pretty clean too.
So here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
Replace interval (leading
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Suggestion
The low mile cars which then probably has been sitting for longer periods of time, combined with extended oil change interval (leading to acidic oil sitting in the IMS tube) and lack of spirited driving all contribute IMHO to failing IMS bearings.
So here is a few pics of my 112,700 mile IMS bearing
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I'd bet against any one of those examples still having solid seals and the factory grease in them.
Picked up the car today from Scott at Mcilvain Motors up in Phoenix. My car is an 02 C4 Original IMS, already had 2 RMS and 2 IMSB flange seals replaced by Original Owner. I got the car at 108K miles and changed the oil. Nothing in the filter at all. Car was running great. Had the bearing, RMS, AOS, Water pump(original to car), Clutch-no flywheel needed, tranny fluid, and Low temp thermostat done. Only additional worn part found was the flex disk. I guess is a part only for awd models and goes with age.
Bearing shows a bit of wear on the outside surfaces, but spins with no noise. I have never held and spun a new bearing so I'm not sure what normal feels like? This does not free spin, but seems smooth. At first when I got it back I was thinking there wasn't even oil in it. LOL. Once I started prying on it out it came. The bearings sure look ok and completely intact. I'll let the experts chime in if they see something else. Replaced with the LN dual row for a single row car...
Strange to think that such a small part can cause such massive destruction to a motor. When Scott handed me the IMS I was shocked to see how small it is...From photos I have seen I was thinking they were bigger.
Clutch was getting close to the rivets so it was a good time to replace it. I can't believe how smooth and easy to push it feels now.
take it back to your Indy and get them to let you run it through the parts washer to get that oil cleaned out. Then you'll actually be able to see a bit clearer.
The only way to really see, however, is to take it apart. If you want it as a souvineer though, don't take it apart as it doesn't go back together nicely from what I've seen.
If you do want to hang onto it, I'd suggest getting it plated in something that won't tarnish and etch. It will still spin afterwards (though not quite as smoothly).
Question from a newb, hope you guys don't mind. Isn't this a bearing on the way out? The failure mode for the bearing is, as I understand it:
--Sealed bearing containing permanent lubrication (grease or whatever, but not oil)
--Bearing seals fail, letting in oil (like the bearing in the OP's pic?)
--Oil eventually washes away the permanent lubrication, but the oil doesn't stay in the bearing either (or, engine oil doesn't do the lube job well enough).
--Bearing goes kablooey, owner regrets being born, etc. etc.
Is that right? Not that it matters (I've got the LNE bearing), I'm just curious.
The bullet points are pretty much on target... But... It does matter. LN bearings need to be replaced at a set service interval or mileage as well (it varies depending on which bearing). The Solution is the only "permanent" fix for the IMSB.
Not really. There are examples of 200k+ factory bearings working fine (obviously rare) as well as plenty over 100k. I'd bet against any one of those examples still having solid seals and the factory grease in them.
That isn't an issue that directly leads to bearing failure. It's more about once the seals fail and the grease washes out, how effective is the oil circulating through the bearing.
This is part of the basis of the "drive it as it was meant to be driven" point of view. Cars that sit for long periods, do not get long runs for the motor to burn off impurities in the oil, see long OCIs, and don't use the upper reaches of the RPM band are where the worry is. This is because all those things combine to allow old oil to get stuck in there and turn acidic which in turn etches the ***** and races. THAT is when things start their downward spiral.
The only way to know the state of this (or any) bearing 100% is to disassemble it so the ***** and races can be examined closely. Given that this one saw 100k with no signs of issues, I'd bet on it being just fine if it were my car.
Oh, well aware. My bearing is due to be replaced in 2020 (I won't hit 75,000 miles by then), going by the recommended service interval. Already saving up!
Interesting! So a great majority of bearings "fail" in the sense that they are no longer working as designed (with their permanent lube in place), but not all "fail fail," destroying the engine. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a picture on here of a removed bearing with factory lubrication. They all seem to have oil. Small sample sizes, of course.
If I am not mistaken, the "warranty" from LNE is limited to the wholesale price of the bearing. So, if it fails, LNE will refund the wholesale cost of the bearing and nothing more.
Oh, and it's good for a full 30 days from the date of installation.
Frankly, I wouldn't waste the time and postage to send it back in. I'd keep it to hand off to the new owner when you sell it so that they can inspect it themselves. And it makes a cool souvenir. Basically, a really expensive one of these:
Care to take on a copyright infringement case? I think I can show "prior art"
Bearing in the center? Check!
3 "wings" that spin around the center? Check!
Great way to "fiddle" and annoy others at the same time? Check!
So, you old ambulance chaser, what kind of a check do you think you can get me?
Mine was definitely full of oil..seemed pretty clean too. The car was driven over 5K miles a year and was very well maintained, never tracked etc. I am happy I had the bearing done..at least now I know.
Personally I could never understand the grease vs oil in the bearing debate. For example BRP / Rotax on their 2 cycle snowmobile engines went to a greased bearing in their crank shafts on the two outers PTO and MAG, the center bearings remained oil fed. Guess which bearings fail 10 / 10 times? The greased ones. They have since moved away from this setup and back to a fully oil fed crank the same as the other 3 sled manufactures. IMO the more oil in that bearing the better off it is.
That's fine, but in this case it appears that the "good" way to lubricate these bearings is happening by accident, rather than design. Some bearings are obviously not getting enough lubrication this way, obviously, or these cars would be worth more. It certainly makes The Solution more interesting, though.
Well, it's certainly one factor and definitely the cause for some of us to be skeptical of low mile cars, but there are unfortunately other factors (like the machining of the case, other parts shedding debris that gets in there, etc..) where no amount of oil or grease is going to save it.
The low mile cars which then probably has been sitting for longer periods of time, combined with extended oil change interval (leading to acidic oil sitting in the IMS tube) and lack of spirited driving all contribute IMHO to failing IMS bearings. My thinking then is that the same can then happen to a high mile car that has been sitting for the past years etc etc. So regular driven cars is key and how can you check that with many ownerships?
I think topic starter did the only sensible thing and that is to swap the bearing with the clutch change (which was due). What you then hope for is that it wasn't necessary. That is good. With that mileage all bearings will have lost the grease and are relying on engine oil for lubrication.
It seems strange Porsche would use a Plane bearing on the other side of the IMS and this little ball bearing one on the other. Scott from Mcilvain showed me a dual row from the early cars and it was twice as wide. Why go from that to the single row? A lot of questions for the designers...In a very selfish way I am happy the cars have had issues, no way I could have purchased one if they didn't.
Certainly a car that racked up 80k in the first 3 years and then 10k over the next 10 is almost as suspect as the one that only ever saw 10 or 20k. The main difference there is that with the higher milage one you at least have a good idea that it probably has a properly machined case while the lower version may just not have run enough to expose the problem.
As critical as I am of CarFax and the like, this is one of the places it can actually be useful. If you see from the registration info that there were years with very few miles, then it would be worth questioning. If you instead see that the milage was well balanced over it's life, then it's a much safer gamble.
I see this all the time, and it is incorrect.
EPS make a cylindrical roller bearing that in direct oil fed through the IM shaft from the oil pump.
They consider it a life time fix. Is it? Who knows, but they do advertise and claim it never needs replacing.
I had it installed in Feb. of this year.
That said, I consider myself the most handsome, smartest, richest, lady killer, romeo extrodinaire that has ever walked the planet earth. Am I? Who knows.
Agree if not for this "flaw" I would have never owned a 911. Still think its way overblown and I sure didn't worry at all about mine. I still would be more leery buying one that has been refit.
Un-filtered oil injected directly into a roller bearing (i.e. lots of moving parts to fail). Also a fairly deep groove cut in the oil drive hex key - which has been known to fail without a groove cut in it. I hope it works out well for you, but my $ is on the Solution.
Not debating which is better, cheaper, pricier, tastes better, smells better, improves erectile dysfunction better, etc., etc.
Just pushing back on the only permanent fix claim...
The only real permanent fix is to get a 996 without the IMSB, i.e a turbo...
Boom...drop mic....fist pump...walk off stage....
Couldn't disagree more.....your fix has a roller bearing and uses un-filtered oil. The real fix has a plain bearing and uses filtered oil. Apples and oranges. Don't trip over the mic.......
OK, pay attention class...
You are arguing the merits and particulars of the design, durability and reliability of the two options...Great, knock yourself out...
However....Final clarification....
I am simply pointing out that there is a manufacturer, in addition to The Solution, of an IMSB retrofit that the manufacture considers to be permanent.
Class dismissed...
