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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHOpen letter to 996 Moderators re: MBMotorsports
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polarization of american culture
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Reported cause
The big problem is polarization of American Culture.
Leading evidence: 'polarization of american culture' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'polarization of american culture' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Clean him' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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I have gone in after a forum was fractured up and cleaned house for the owners.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Sponsor or not, he doesn't deserve to essentially get a free pass to say what he wants and have the slate wiped clean for him.
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Suggestion
Then the only conversation from there on was that everyone was ok, and how to possibly repair the damage, and how upset you were that your Porsche was damaged, and no one ever asked about the poor old man.
Replace history and this has two significant side effects
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Suggestion · Original poster
My issue is that by deleting his posts you are in effect changing history and this has two significant side effects.
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Suggestion
Then the only conversation from there on was that everyone was ok, and how to possibly repair the damage, and how upset you were that your Porsche was damaged, and no one ever asked about the poor old man.
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44 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
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Non-Mods,
This is about how Martin is being moderated, not Martin himself or the things he says/does. If you want to contribute your thoughts on the topic of the moderation, please provide your views by all means. If you just want to bash Martin or dredge up particular things he has said, we do that in enough other places already so please do not do that here.
Mods,
I appreciate the effort you all put into keeping some semblance of order around here, but the I feel the need to register a probably opposing view of how Martin is being handled.
I'm no fan of Martin and recognize he has a knack for turning any thread sour, but I think the outright deletion of his posts (sans when he wants to post personal information about other members) does the community a disservice.
My issue is that by deleting his posts you are in effect changing history and this has two significant side effects.
The first is that the conversation in threads become weird after the fact (JI's engine replacement thread is a good example) as there are clearly references to Martin having been there, but his post(s) are now gone and context is broken.
The second is that you are effectively cleaning up his image for him by hiding his true personality. Sponsor or not, he doesn't deserve to essentially get a free pass to say what he wants and have the slate wiped clean for him.
It is clear that Martin wants no part of being a contributing and useful member of the community and clearly doesn't respect whatever warnings he has been given. It is also clear that we can't just ignore him and not engage with his destructive posts.
I don't envy the challenge you have as I know leaving his posts just leaves the door open for the seemingly never ending back and forth that he incites, but I would ask that keep the above in mind when you are faced with another of his posts.
Free speech is good
Censorship is very bad
No persons posts should be deleted short of illegal activity or outright spam
I have no poker in the Martin fire.
If those posts get left, yes. Often, however, the Mods kill those posts as well as his though. Those posts also won't show up if you look at Martin's post history.
I've had a few such posts removed that while they were dealing with Martin rather than the thread topic were not, I feel, worthy of deletion or even a stern finger wag. I get why they do it though so other than my above concerns I don't really object.
I actually don't know that much about Martin or his posts. I've read a lot of the criticism and have read some of his posts, which seem to justify that criticism, but I've never interacted with him directly. I get the whole "censorship is bad" sentiment and I was mostly following you (gnat) until you wrote the following:
Let's take Martin out of this and, instead, talk generally about someone who...
- doesn't care about being a contributing member;
- doesn't care about being a useful member;
- disregards warnings they've received from mods; and
- posts only destructive content.
Just freaking ban them; even temporarily. Refund their sponsorship or membership if that's an concern. This is a private forum. The mods are people who volunteer their time and have better things to do than babysit an adult who, based on your description, is here for the sole purpose of being destructive. If that member behaves like a petulant child and disregards warnings, then send them to their room. If they never reform their ways after repeat violations, make the ban permanent.
There's a material difference between taking contrarian positions; even frequently and unreasonably versus simply being destructive. I don't think moderators should have to assess the value of an individual's posts to determine whether they are appropriate for the forum. This isn't Wikipedia. Countless threads are riddled with inane, useless comments and I don't think they should be removed. People can sometimes be inflammatory, too, but poking the bear isn't the same as being the bear. The role of the moderator isn't (in my opinion) to ensure that all content meets a certain value quotient. What a bear that would be (pun intended). I believe their role is, generally, to keep things in context (which can be very broad in a forum like this, where members seem to treat the forum as a brotherhood of sorts, welcoming even non-996 content) and, most importantly, ensure that people are acting reasonably toward one another. As volunteers, moderators shouldn't have to waste their time ensuring every post meets some Puritanical standard but they also shouldn't have to waste their time chasing down members who are
only
here to troll. What's the difference between posting spam and trolling? Neither is constructive or interesting to members. Spammers get banned. So...?
-Eric
He did recently have an enforced temporary vacation which is why I say he continues regardless of any warnings he has received.
I'm not trying to advocate it with this thread, but I wouldn't argue an outright banning.
The Mods are just forum members like the rest of us and Sponsors are paying money (presumably more than our Member fees, but I don't know) to the site owners (IB) so I expect there may be additional steps that have to be followed before a Sponsor can be permanently banned. I also suspect they don't have the ability to refund/cancel a sponsorship.
Yeap I agree 100% all things being equal (e.g. I recognize that dealing with a Sponsor may carry some additional weeds to work through).
I agree and I personally think Martin straddles that line.
In his latest "I'm leaving and never coming back" post (since removed) he couldn't help making digs at Jake and his customers. That post, however, is a good example of what I'm complaining about here. He didn't mention Jake by name, but we all knew who/what he was talking about. It also wasn't done in such a manner that violates any forum rules (at least none that I've seen enforced and I've made far more incendiary posts myself).
Personally if we never see the guy again I won't be upset, but I do think the Mods have been a bit heavy handed on the delete button (though since we can't seem to just ignore him I really don't know a better option for them especially since I only know of one post that I think was ban worthy by itself).
This was pretty much what I was going to state. I know that, no matter what I do here, some will say that I don't reign things in enough, whereas others feel that I'm too heavy-handed. We are volunteers and not everything is going to be 100% perfect, 100% of the time. Mods have discretion to take action based on judgment (and sometimes based on a consensus).
Martin's basic actions and posts over time should be clear. Although I wasn't involved in the last issue, the mod or mods who did take action probably had a day job to deal with and did the best they could.
If anyone feels compelled to have Martin's post record be undeleted, shoot a mass PM to the admin, Bob Rouleau, and the super mods like Hacker-Pschorr, 911SLOW, IB Nolan, etc. and see if they will resume his old posts. Since I didn't delete Martin's posts, it's not correct for me to undo another mod's work.
When I was newer to Rennlist, I commented on a thread that was discussing how someone had hit a deer while driving. Page after page of posts about the cars condition and the drivers condition post crash, as would be expected...
Then I simply posted how the deer made out in the crash and if it was hurt or killed. The Mods gave me a warning for that.
Mods = God....it's their world. we're just living in it.....
by the way the deer died....
Actually, I re read the post, and I commented that the OP stated that no one was hurt in the accident, and I pointed out that the deer was actually most likely hurt. So the OP's statement that no one was hurt was quite inaccurate...
anyway.....moving on....
Thanks for taking the time to respond Mark. Hopefully it's clear that I'm not intending to slam you guys here. That you guys keep us in line as much as you do is pretty impressive
I'm not sure it's worth restoring any of his posts (honestly didn't even know it was an option) as there was nothing earth shattering that was lost (at least in the ones I saw before they got nuked). I just wanted to bring up some potentially unintended consequences for you guys to keep in mind down the road.
No, it's cool. I've been around for almost fifteen years, and the site that John D. created and the conduct that was expected have not been lost on me (or the other mods). This is, for the most part, a terrific community.
ROLEX11 - I appreciate the concern and you pointing out that other living animals have importance too!
Me and my wife have been passionate about animals being not looked upon as something without feelings and right of acknowledgment as a creature of life. RESCUE A DOG, CAT OR WHATEVER! & BE KIND TO IT!
The Great Ones in our book are Betty White, Bob Barker, Sam Simon (Yes the guy from The Simpsons) right down to the person that see's a dog on the street about to get injured and instead of driving by - get's out and bring's in home to maybe their child. Now that made 1 dog and 1 child happy! WIN WIN!
I actually appreciate the job the mods have done and prefer the deletions. I understand what you are saying gnat and don't disagree with it. I just prefer to have them deleted and have the threads cleaned up. I think it's also a lot easier for the mods to just scan and mass delete known offenders as opposed to having to read line after line of meaningless dribble.
Great job mods!
Sadly there was seldom much technical merit in his posts.He did not substantiate his many claims . Mostly ad hominem attacks and even cyber-stalking Forum members.
This is a pity because he was given many ,many opportunities to promote his ideas and his business. He was given many gracious welcomes and second chances. I even helped him rephrase his broken English for clarity while trying to find something of technical value in his posts.
He may have been able to develop a better business partially based on support from Rennlisters. He destroyed that , dumped on us (& Americans generally!) and in several fits of petulance threw it back at us.
I suspect
he may reappear on other Porsche Forums with a different name.
I wish him well.
thank Jason
That is all I was trying to do when I posted that. I remember being quite shocked when the mods called me out on that one.
In early 2009 at age 43 I was able to hang up my working jacket and pursue in life what matters to me and the things that I enjoy.
One of those thing that matter to me most are animal rights. I'm not gonna ring my bell here, but I am very involved in this area.
Just to shine a bit of light, I once headed an effort to shut down a local retail puppy store that was abusing the animals and lacking in any concern for there well being before or after the sale. Over 2 years with much help from dear friends and other concerned individuals and the city, we shut them down. And succeeded to get the city to ban any future retail puppy stores from doing business in that city. 2 years tens of thousands of my $$'s, and we won. Most of the $$ went to lawyers and the undercover photographers who put themselves in harms way to secretly film the violations.
Anyone who thinks there is an 800 number you can dial when you see animals mistreated is sorely mistaken.
Thread Hijacking.....guilty......
I was one of a small team of mods on one of the more popular Saab forums for many years, during which time we had a similar issue with one particular supplier. While I tend toward less censorship rather than more, the decision to erase, edit or bring out the ban-hammer is never an easy one. Mark, I think y'all do a pretty fine job. And if Marty doesn't come back, it's his loss.
you are most likely correct my friend...
but that is the point here...
If you would post a story where you said, "I was driving one night thru mountain roads and out of nowhere I hit an old man, etc. etc., yada yada yada". Then the only conversation from there on was that everyone was ok, and how to possibly repair the damage, and how upset you were that your Porsche was damaged, and no one ever asked about the poor old man. That's the point. I was just asking about the "poor old man" if you will, and got pegged for it.
If the moral or ethical bar at Rennlist is set at not being able point out that a deer lost its life, or at least was severely injured, then pardon me.
That I just corrected for the record the statement "everyone was ok" was not correct, and that set off the mods, again pardon me.
Seems a very good example of over kill on behalf of the mods. which is what we are discussing here.
Dead horse beaten....not that it's ok to beat a dead horse, or for that matter one that is still alive, or for that matter a hypothetical horse...
Legal notice: No horses have been beaten or injured in the typing of this post. The author and its affiliates in no way condone the beating of horses or any living creature. Any reference to old men being struck by a car is solely for the purpose of stating a point. No old men have been struck by cars due to the typing of this post. Any similarity or factual resemblance to actual old men being struck by a cars in unintended.
Covering my a$$ so I don't get banned.
As long as no Unicorn's get harmed, I'll be fine. Running low on Unicorn Semen and not sure how much longer I can wait for a new supply. It's what's been keeping my original IMS alive this whole time.
and now "women's rights"
2 young defenseless girls forced to wear ridiculous looking constricting clothes for hours out in the hot sun. Just look at the pain and suffering of their facial expressions.
Oooh the humanity.....!!!! Where are the mods when you need them...
As a moderator on other forums, it's a thankless job. Depending on the forum and constraints, the strictness varies a lot by how "on topic" or "appropriate content" the thread is. A theme forum usually has to have the post or pics contain the theme in them. Cliques and bullying is what ruins forums for new members. This is where a good moderator has to step in. If the forum members follow the rules of the forum, a moderator will be transparent. When you realize it's thunderdome, it's too late. I have gone in after a forum was fractured up and cleaned house for the owners. Sometimes the forum comes back, many times the owner pulls the plug.
I heard the one on the left saying that the one on the right does rebuilds for twice as much. Then the the fans jumped in and said the one on the left reused many of the original parts creating a low cost build, then there was a catfight over the descriptive terminology of what "Rebuild" means. Can't we all just Stare and get along?
Well it's confirmed....93% of us Listers are nut jobs. Classic thread of how the wheels come off the cart. Btw....I'm besides myself in a good way that Marty is gone. I might even call him to discuss my joy.
The big problem is polarization of American Culture. It's purely USA thing.
You can love either Apple or Android.
You can love Chevy or Ford.
You can love LE or MBM.
You can love Trump or Hillary.
You don't see, Real man drive Tata in India.
You don't see, Eating Foreign, ****ting on others, stickers on BMW in Germany.
There is no middle ground. You can't respect Martin for what he is and you can't respect LE at the same time. You have to pick sides.
Martin is an easy target, highly emotional, problem with language, and very frustrated by the lack of credit he gets as a result of the above problems. A couple of vocal posters can make him go insane. Fair enough, each country has it's way of doing business, if he can rise above it (which I doubt at this time) he can take "those stupid Americans that can't figure out interest rates" to cleaners. And instead of being 1 mil business be a 10 mil business. He tried to share his knowledge in the beginning but since it wasn't along LE lines a number of vocal posters manages to shut him out. So he got bitter. Sucks for him, different forum, different time he would be god.
As a member of foreigners business clubs his story if very common. I am not expecting anyone to understand, unless you walked in his shoes.
And if he is causing **** and not contributing he should have been refunded his membership fee and banned long time ago.
Good luck guys.
I understand what you are saying but Martin was the initiator of many unproved attacks. He is absolutely obsessed with Jake and was hell bent on discrediting him. I have seen a lot of stereotypical American arrogance that I think you are referring to but I haven't seen it on any of the Rennlist forums I frequent. I think this community is way too global to tolerate it.
It's funny though, at least one loyal customer, usually more, comes to their defense when we see negative posts about Vertex, Race Development, FSI, etc.... But we never once saw one of Martins customers come to his defense. I'm not sure why either.
