Uncertainty

Hello everyone. My first post on this forum and I must say I have learned some things I had not known. My issue is that I am finally at the point in my life where I am looking for a second car for me and thought I found a 2003 C4S that could potentially be mine. However, after reading about all the concerns of IMS and RMS issues I think my excitement has been somewhat tempered. I still want to move forward and schedule a test drive but fear that every 996 I find interesting has something bad lurking underneath that could manifest at any moment. As I want to do the right thing before purchase can some one provide any guidance on how I go about gaining some comfort before making a purchase? How do I determine if the IMS and RMS issues were fixed or if not fixed how much they cost to be fixed? Will there still be a potential problem with the IMS and RMS later on even if fixed? How can I get in touch with a PPI? And what does PPI stand for? I apologize for the rapid fire of what may be elementary questions but I am really wanting to move forward with my potential purchase. Anyone who can provide guidance or advice would be extremely appreciated. Thank you. CJR-

PPI- Pre Purchase Inspection. Done right, may give you the peace of mind you want/need. And maybe a warranty. Then address IMS/RMS, et al after the PPI is done in negotiating the purchase price. If seller claims IMS has been done, ask for a receipt. NOTE: Forums are ripe with doom-and-gloom stories/scenarios. Ignorance is bliss...just ask the gazillion other owners who are NOT members of fora, etc.

Thank you for your quick reply. How do i find someone to do a PPI? Ask a Porsche dealer or any authorized mechanic? Does anyone have one that can be recommended? I am in the NYC area.

You don't give your location, but what you're looking for is a Porsche ind�pendant mechanic..or indy. Wait a bit, and Macster, Schnell and others (RL'rs) will be along with the commandments for qualifying a vehicle for purchase

Things can break, they can be expensive. If you're really worried about the IMS bearing, check out the IMS Solution. I just put one in my car and now I never need worry about the IMS bearing again. I've seen quotes for IMS Solution installation (and parts) ranging from $3,000-6,000. The RMS (rear main seal) is a $25 part and is a fairly easy thing to replace while doing an IMS job - so if you're going to address the IMS, the RMS is not that big of a deal. I absolutely love my C4S, don't regret the purchase for a second. You're buying what is widely considered one of the greatest sports cars of all time (911) and cost $100,000 new for a fraction of that price. That being said - can you afford to spend $5k if you need some repair work done at some point? Would a $15k engine rebuild/replacement, although its unlikely, bankrupt you? Most 996 owners drive their cars and never experience any of the nightmare scenarios you've read about, but it can/does happen from time to time. If you can live with the worst case scenario then you should buy it.

I believe there is only one company that makes a lifetime fix of the IMS and that is Flat 6, aka Jake Raby and a handful of shops that he has trained and certifies. All the other IMS fixes have to be considered ongoing maintanence...meaning every 5 years or 50k miles you have to do it again. And yes these versions have had failures because you may chose a shop that does a bad job with the installation...so it could fail at anytime in those five years. Not a happy scenario. On the good side...there are 996s with 100k, 200k even 300k miles and they are still running their original factory IMS bearing. If you go through the posts here from people who have proactively rerplaced their IMS bearings, almost every case states that the original bearing when taken out was a good as new and showed zero signs of failure. In the book 996 The Essential Companion, the author gives explanations that don't source the bearing as the source of the trouble but other issues such as low oil levels combined with low oil pressure combined with sudden high demands on the Variocam system. Blah blah blah. In the first generation of the 996 w/ the 3.4 engine the model year 1999 and 2000 had the smaller duel row bearing. Based on court documents from a class action suite filed against Porsche...1% or less of these cars have that failure. In the second generation (MY 2001 to 2004) these had the highest failure rate...between 5% and 8% depending on who you believe. The third generation of the bearing effects the 997.1 cars. A small less that 1% failure rate effects these cars as well...according to Porsche. However these bearings cannot be replaced without major engine work. Unless Jake Raby or one of his certified shops did the IMS replacement I would prefer casting my lot with Porsche and stay with the original factory bearing. Aftermarket warranties that cover catastrophic engine failure are available and that is a good option. The bigger issue is whether or not you are comfortable with the overall costs of maintaining a Porsche. Perhaps you should spend some more time reading and thinking about this before jumping in and buying. If I sit in my doomsday prepper whole and think about all the things that can go wrong with my 2000 996 I would shoot myself. But when I get out and drive it, it feels so good I know it is worth it and the odds of something awful happening are overwhelmingly in my favor.

I N V A S I V E PPI and if it passes, head directly over to a "CERTIFIED" LN installer to get THE SOLUTION installed after a thorough Prequalification check. If you're still scared, use DT-40 oil that's been formulated for these types of engines. If you're really scared even after that, change to low temp thermostat and oil adapter kit. If you're even more scared, replace the water pump proactively so you don't risk any blades breaking off and blocking your coolant passages. If that doesn't comfort your nerves then replace the AOS proactively. If you're even more scared than a little girl on Monsters Inc, tear down the engine and R&R timing chain guides and IMS paddle tensioners with billet pieces. Lastly, do not drive it in the winter even if you get the AWD version to be on the safe side. FWIW, I don't believe these views myself and have done none of these and has ran fine for the past 6 years for me. For putting in a little over $500 on maintenance over the years, I've more than made up the cost to have owned one of these to be able to walk away and feel good if something catastrophic did go wrong.

Plenty of shops here. Where are you? LI, NJ, NY update or CT? PM if you need help with a local PPI shop.

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If seller is also a dealer, then definitely find another shop (preferably an independent who specializes in Porsches) to do the PPI.

Every car will eventually have some mechanical issue - that's just the nature of machinery. The cost of entry into 996 ownership is INCREDIBLY low...generally, the cost of ownership is ALSO low; sometimes (when you do a load of preventive maintenance or buy new tires) it's a bit painful, and on VERY rare occasion, someone gets boned with a very large bill for an engine rebuild. There are many, many cars where the bill for a fixed engine is a whole lot less - an order of magnitude less, in fact. However, I propose that the enjoyment you get from driving a 996 is an order of magnitude greater than the enjoyment you'd get from a Camry, or an Accord, or a legacy. If you buy ANY 15-year-old discount "supercar" - the 996 was called a supercar 15 years ago - you run the same risks. Buy a 15-year-old Ferrari or Lamborghini, and your exposure will be just as bad - and your running costs will be much higher. The 996 is the deal of the century. The air-cooled guys are just now realizing (or admitting) that the 996 is a remarkable car, but the prices are still rock-bottom (or maybe, possibly, starting to perk up a bit). If you NEED this car to be a reliable daily driver that has NO chance of having a $15K engine failure, it's not the right car. If it's a "pleasure" car you can enjoy driving but - if you DO have a stroke of bad luck - you could mothball for a little while you deal with a major expense, you will be hard pressed to find a better choice. I would never recommend a college student on a budget to buy a 996 - or any other 15-year-old car that has the potential to cost a lot to fix. That's what Hondas and Hyundais are for. On the other had, I would ABSOLUTELY recommend one to someone who is stable and can afford to take a little gamble - the payoff is an awesome car for ridiculously little money.

All IMS can fail, upgraded or not. Single row factory bearings are the worst. If you have the budget for a C4S, most likely you can find a 996 Turbo for a bit more.. No ims issues there

As far as your car selection - the C4S is certainly one of the best-looking 996 options. I prefer the narrow-body 996's, and I did not like the AWD system at all, to the point that I removed the front wheel drive components. I think a RWD narrow-body 996 is the best 996, but the best way to be sure is to drive a BUNCH of 996's before you fall in love. There is no shortage of 996 inventory - don't think that the car you're looking at has to be The One.

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Receipt isn't good enough. You want details on the swap (who did it, what was it's state, pics, etc..). If it wasn't done by a certified LN shop and there is no other hard evidence on the swap, then my opinion is to view it as if the swap was never done (or worse was done to cover up a failure in progress). There is indeed a lot of hysteria around it and the reality is that it's a small subset that fail. The reality, however, is that a statistically relevant number have failed and when they do they cost a lot of money and time to fix. So while I'm not on the "KK says the sky is falling" train, I do believe that you need to walk away if having to replace the motor ($15k+) or sell it as a roller ($7k) is not something you can swallow. Odds are if you find the right car it will good for a long time, but there is a high cost if you happen to have some bad luck. A year or so ago there was a guy posting here who got a loan to get his 996 (yes a loan on a 10+ year old car!) and he then had the unfortunate luck to have his motor go. Due to the loan he was not in a financial position to just walk away from it so he claimed to be taking money out of his 401k to pay for a new motor. Don't be that guy!

I think if you are looking at a car you like and intend to keep a while and it passes a thorough PPI I would plan to spend $6K or so to have the water pump, AOS, IMSB, RMS and clutch done. I did all that to mine after purchase (DIY) and my feeling about it is I have taken all the reasonable steps to prevent a problem for the next 30K-50K miles (which is probably longer than I will own the car). I was also comforted to find that, even with almost 70K miles on the clock, none of these items needed replacement at the time (which is why they call it preventative maintenance!). Even if you end up getting rid of the car in the near future, having done these things will make the car much easier to sell to the next owner.

Before buying (or driving one) remember that a 15 year old machine is either broken or is currently in a state of becoming broken. That's a fact...for any 15 year old car (or any car). The only variables are when will it break and how much time/money will it take to fix. The 996 is relatively cheap and easy to fix vs. any other 911. It is not relatively cheap and easy to fix vs your typical chevy/ford/toyota/kia, etc... Do your homework, get a PPI from a shop that is referred by someone on RL or a person you trust, drive several, and financially/emotionally prepare for driving an old car. You do that and you'll be golden.

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+996. In my mind, the receipt can provide details/info that should help ascertain if shop was a certified installer so ipso facto a proper prequal and proper install were "indeed" done

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There's also another thread here in the 996 forum by a guy who did a TON of PM - and then found that the stuff he didn't do (coolant tank and some others) were pushing that PM bill way too high, and now he's second-guessing his purchase. If the car you ultimately decide to buy is a '99, you may elect to wait do do anything with that dual-row IMSB until a later date. If the clutch is fine, and you are not seeing any leaking (i.e. the RMS is fine), there is no reason to drop the transmission as soon as you get the car. There is more than one instance where someone has "preventively" replaced an AOS...with a faulty new unit that subsequently needs to be replaced. While I am a believer in replacing known problematic systems before they fail - like the water pump - I'm also a fan of finding that balance between "he who hesitates is lost" and "look before you leap." I don't think it's wise to continue to ignore any deferred maintenance items, but I also think it's premature to jump in with a laundry list of repairs before you have the chance to feel a new car out and determine what it actually NEEDS.

You're getting the 996 brain trust, OP. Lots of great advice. In my opinion, if you are in a financial position that you can put a grand aside per month for an unlikely, but still possible catastrophic failure, do it. Then, follow all the other advice, and when you find the one, drive the living pizz out of it. In my opinion, the biggest financial downfall of owning a 911 is that you'll be hooked and want more and fancier...T

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Who does this? I couldn't find anyone when I looked around.

Remember guys, regular PPI doesn't mean jack these days. To the OP, it's a lot like home inspections. The home inspector can only see what he see's. He's not going to be able to tear up the drywall to look for plumbing or structural issues behind the walls. That's basically what you get with a standard PPI, just a visual check without taking anything apart. An invasive PPI is a bit more expensive but it will allow the mechanic to probe more deeply at the condition of the cylinder walls, drop the sump and inspect for any debris, etc. This kind of procedure can catch most of the expensive repairs that can be lurking.

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+996

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Now that is gold

Lots of good information here. I really appreciate it. If it is determined that I need to do a laundry list of things which I am ok with financially is it recommended to do it all at the same time?

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ah, yes....the "WHILE YOU ARE IN THERE" list: clutch-IMS-RMS-AOS...water pump-tstat-belt-tank-cap-hoses...and the list goes on My 2 cents: fix/repair/replace what is BROKEN or about to break.....or you can get sucked in by the preventive maintenance spiral

I am not as knowledgeable as many of the members here. But I just purchased a 996 myself. I had an Indy do a PPI and he gave me a green light. I asked him about the IMS and he told me to drive the **** out of it. Mine is 17 years old and I expect to have some mechanical problems. But I understand that and follow my mechanics advice and drive the **** out it. I look at it as the smiles versus the price of ownership is far in the advantage of smiles. That being said, I haven't had any expenses yet. When I have to spend money to keep her (I need a name) running I will, be it a routine maintenance part or a big ticket item, it is the price of admission. In return I get mornings like this morning, 58 degrees, low humidity, sun rising, top down on my way to work. I may or may not of spent a considerable amount of time above the speed limit.......But t was glorious. It is a gamble, like the Vegas commercial, "if you are playing it safe, are you really playing?"

I bought a '99 c2 last year and i LOVE it. I did wait until I found one that had some prior service history. Don't get discouraged by all the IMS talk, you will love the car. You always roll the dice with an older car and the advice here is great. Buy the best one you can afford and enjoy it. A PPI is a very good idea, and it's common practice for porsches and not too much of an inconvenience for buyer or seller. Great piece of mind for your new purchase. Good luck!

IMO, do yourself a favor and save up 40k or so and get the turbo. It is a completely different engine and you will not have to every time you drive the car. maintenance is about the same and you have a much more powerful car with less to worry about.

...or you could buy a N/A 996 and just decide to not worry every time you drive the car. *shrug* The last time I worried when I drove my 996 was when I was bringing a pizza home for dinner - trying to keep the toppings from sliding off the pie. Some of us prefer not to simply throw 2x money at every situation...and anyone who claims that a Turbo costs the same to maintain has not had to pay to rebuild a turbo yet.

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Or buy two 996.1's and have a spare in case one goes wrong. They are awesome machines. My biggest concern is not blowing up, but going to jail for (allegedly) breaking the speed limit. Its the most fun you can have with your trousers on. Just do it.

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Well said!

I really appreciate all your comments. I will first look to get it inspected by someone I can trust. I will see who I can find and keep you posted.

Great thread everyone, a lot of solid advice here. OP, read it all twice, and then be patient and persistent in your search for a great 996.

I just got my '99 996 back from the indy shop. At 83K miles, I decided to "bit the bullet" and replace the original IMS/RMS/AOS/Clutch/Pressure Plate/DMF flywheel (plus one chain tensioner found to be weak during the replacement process) along with all liquids. Total cost = $4200. In all candor, it now drives like a new car...the gear changes are so-o-o smooth...a transformative improvement! relinuca Porsches Forever

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That is music to my ears. Thank you.

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OP, ideally you want to find a car owned by a true enthusiast with all the major maintenance stuff done already with proper receipts from well respected places. This affords you time(possibly quite a few years like me) in having to shell out any additional funds in the near future and makes owning one of these that much more pleasurable experience.

hmmmm....groov's car is still for sale, right?

Look at it this way. You could buy an inferior car brand new, for the same price - and it will be worth almost nothing when you go to sell it. You may not have to spend a cent on repairs (warranty) and never have it break down - but you're going to take a huge loss on resale. OR you could buy a freaking amazing used car - spend some money on repairs from time to time - but not take a bath on resale. In the end, you'll probably lose the same amount of money, so which scenario makes you feel the best?

Buy some jack stands and a ATV jack, a decent set of tools if you're inclined to do the maintenance yourself. There is plenty of resources here to assist with tasks. Go drive the **** out of the 911. If and when it needs love tend to it. Turn wrenches on it, fix what's broke then test drive it some more and continue to drive the **** out of it. Save money for a rainy day or to do desired upgrades / preventive maintenance and enjoy complements and the joys of owning and driving a Porsche .