Does Mobil 1 Oil detergent additive counterproductive?

Everybody take a deeeeep breath, I'm not encouraging another lame oil debate for the 996, but when Jake Raby mentioned that Mobil 1 was a detergent based oil, it got me seriously thinking about this question... Could the detergents and dispersing agents in Mobil 1 contribute to premature wear and deterioration of internal plastic parts (e.g. chain guides)? https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...guide-2015.pdf

Nice subject. It's true, all your base ARE belong to us. I think you might have written the instructions that came with my most recent drone purchase. I believe some better materials science on Porsche's part could have prevented the tensioner wear issues; while being immersed in oil may not help, the parts are in a high-temp environment and subject to vigorous abuse. I don't know what the optimal material to use would have been, but clearly the plastic/polymer/whatever they chose wasn't it.

Other manufacturers use (and recommend) Mobil1 in their engines. They also use plastic in chain guides and other internals. Do we know if there is a trail of failures in these other applications? I don't know, but think that should be vetted before we prepare to potentially blame Mobil1.

From my engine lid...and guess what I use?

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/284x177/porsche_mobil_1_52c1254370077bf5566256878efc98a1055b5afd.jpg

A recurring theme:

More for good measure LOL

"Mobil 1 was a detergent based oil" I think you misconstrue Jake. This subject involves details that even the nerdy tribologist may find tedious. Mobil 1 is not detergent based, nor is any other engine oil. The base is either synthetic or natural oil. There are not many sources of the base. Forumulators buy or refine their base oil and slap their own label on the final product. Gasoline is a similar story. Base oils properties look like this: http://www.chevronbaseoils.com/conte...%20US_6_16.pdf You may be referring to the additive package regarding the detergent &/or dispersants? There are also specialist companies that make additive packages. These are tailored to specific needs. For example sludge accumulation has been a problem for some popular engines like the Toyota 4 and 6 cylinder . So engine oil formulators/marketers addressed that issue by specifying an additive package that is more effective at dispersing the sludge. Detergent/dispersant is often used for this. It is effective but has a side effect of foaming- remember what happens if you put regular detergent in a front-loading washing machine ! Yup - foam everywhere . Not I wrote "front-loading ", not all washing machines. Similarly with engines, the foaming is not such a problem with most conventional engines. But our M96 is not conventional and it generally is not prone to sludging/carbon accumulation if driven and maintined(oil change frequency and type) correctly. It is very prone to whipping up a high detergent/dispersant oil into a foaming mess. When this foaming occurs many problems occur. Oil starvation and oil contamination are the main general issues.The normal anti-foaming additives may be unable to cope with the M96's tendency to whip up foam. I'll leave others to expand if there is interest. The short version is to use a lower detergent oil &/or one with anti-foaming additives.. A benchmark to compare alternative low detergent oils with an additive package suitable for the M96 is JG DT 40.(search !). Note , I wrote lower/low .NOT "no-detergent". To me, the brand is irrelevant. The tribology is all that matters.Your M96 will thank you . BTW the LN site has a useful discussion of this general subject. And the formulation of Mobil 1 has changed significantly since the date Porsche slapped that sticker on your car. So the oil recommended by the sticker is no longer sold - just the Brand name survives. I am not saying Mobil 1 is bad. It isn't. But it is different.And now there are better(?) alternatives. More details on BITOG for the nerds..

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Schnell, unless the pain medicine from my recent surgery blurred my eyesight, Jake Raby stated that Mobil 1 was a "detergent based oil". Did you read the official pdf link in my OP? Mobil 1 has a section talking about there detergents in the synthetics racing oils including the popular 0w40. Check it out.

Very happy Mobil 5W50 user here. My UOAs are excellent.

B3: That is why I said misconstrue, not misquote. It isn't just detergents. Note I wrote dispersants many times. and anti-foam . Yes there are multiple chemicals to juggle. And they may intereact . It is almost alchemy - that is why it is so contentious unless you get down to the mind-numbing nerdy details. Enjoy your B3 - a great American Instrument.If only Hammond had been as good at Marketing as Mobil http://www.synlube.com/Mobil1-compar...o-SynLube.html I am unqualified to make any recommendations for oil in the M96.But this is what I read for fun: http://www.spectra-analysis.com/docu...Lubricants.pdf

Porsche A40 approved https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1 And when it comes right down to it, choose a high quality synthetic oil and change the oil/filter frequently. I know I'm speaking to the choir here. But to me, if the manufacturer does the research and testing, and comes up with an approved oil list....who am I? Pick one and drive on.

^^^ ok folks....I'm reeling you all back in here... let's talk more about "Detergents or dispersing agents" not brand loyalty. The question was NOT meant to start another argument over the merits of Porsche's official approval oil list or Jake Raby or Joe Gibbs oils but rather a discussion regarding your thoughts on any potential harm that could come from additives such as detergents in Mobil 1. Maybe it won't, but they said the same thing about Ethanol when added to gasoline which in turn can cause engine problems we ALL know about.

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Changing the oil every 500 miles? Yes, those additives could (could) take their toll. Changing the oil every 5,000 miles? This is a non issue. Next.

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Hillary and Trump are actual in bed together!

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With Bill watching.

^^^ bwhahahahaha... thank you for making me spew my lunch. hahahaha

Bringing the thread back to Chain Guides. I found this very helpful: http://www.fifthgear.biz/fifthgear-b...e-to-the-story Although it does not discuss the type of Oil. it seems to me you would want oil that would somehow"stick" better to the chair guides while the engine is off so that when it starts, the guides have some lubrication prior to the oil being delivered to the guides.

A good read on oil detergents and dispersant's http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=258648

One time when I was 10 or so, parents were out and I filled up the dishwasher compartments with Lemon Fresh Joy, instead of Cascade. Wanted to get the dishes good and clean. About 4 feet deep of foam throughout the kitchen, dining room and breakfast room. Sparkly clean...

Detergent additives, dating back to the early 1930s, are used to clean and neutralize oil impurities which would normally cause deposits (oil sludge) on vital engine parts. Typical detergents are magnesium sulfonates. Dispersants keep contaminants (e.g. soot) suspended in the oil to prevent them from coagulating. Neither impede the actual function of motor oil, which is to lubricate the moving parts of the engine. So it is moot as to whether either would play any role in say, excessive chain pad wear, when those depend on the lubricating qualities of the oil (unless the oil change frequency is so long the oil is actually bad for the engine because all the additives have been used up).

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I'm calling BS on this story! There isn't a 10-year-old alive that's ever done dishes.

And from the Fifth Gear article, most chain pad wear is in the first second or two of startup before the oil circulates. I have the perfect solution - just leave the car running all the time. Eliminates that problem, the ignition key problem, engine is always at operating temperature and probably means I'll never have to replace another starter. Brilliant!

Just the fact that Porsche feels this oil is even suitable enough for their Cup cars says something as they know most Cup car owners will most likely go racing. Look at section 1.3.4 in the official 991 GT3 Cup Car owner's manual. http://www.carreracup.com.au/sites/d...anual%20V2.pdf

When I'm at local PCA autocross and DE events, I always leave a couple of these empty cans laying around the paddock area to intimidate the other participants:

Hey, thanks for the lead. Now that drums of lightly-used JG are so hard to come by (thanks a lot, KK), I have been looking for a quality substitute. Looks like drums of used jet oil can be had cheap.

I am re-thinking the original OP question/answer. The camshaft chain tensioner pads are notorious for wearing down. The cause is usually ascribed to heat cycling and frequency of cold(dry) starts. But a serious consequence of pad wear is the accumulation of pad debris on the oil pick up screen. That can restrict oil flow which may cause more serious problems. Now for the detergent/dispersant part - suppose the deterget/dispersant in Mobil 1 is very effective at dislodging the pad debris and allowing it to sink to the bottom of the pan ? That would be ideal. So although the M96 does not have a sludge problem, it may have a similar issue that detergents/dispesants may ameliorate ? A low detergent/dispersant oil may actually allow the debris 'stick; to the mesh of the oil pick up screen? Which might in turn mean you need the higher detergent/dispersant additive package but also with high anti-foam additive. The JG DT40 and 'Racing' oils may have such a package?

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Need to fab up a $599.99 price tag to throw on there.

So , no , detergent in the oil is not an issue ? (At least up to a limit). I've never seen uoa issues with m1 0w40 - including after occasionally tracking ... But it is true that m1 and other races oils are formulated differently ... And more appropriate if you are going to be spending a lot of time at the track - and need to be changed more frequently ...

How would uoa show a foaming potential? Never seen that on Blackstone or Cat And if pad wear(the O P concern?) is the issue, best to drop/inspect the sump plate and check the mesh strainer?

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If you were suffering foaming , you would get insufficient oiling at some point and more wear metals would show up in the uoa ? For pad wear - sure you could Drop the sump. I just look for plastic bits in the filter ....

We all know that oil dispersants are useful in keeping our engines clean of sludge, carbon deposits, etc... heck, Exxon-Mobil and BP use dispersants to clean up their messes when a spill occurs, but my challenge is... could these wonderful cleaning additives potentially cause rubber seals (not the animal, morons! hahaha) and internal plastic parts (i.e. chain guides) to suffer premature deterioration from the detergents that are added to keep our engines clean? I'm not a chemist, but if you take a plastic bottle and submerse it in liquid detergent, over time, the bottle will become brittle and break into pieces. I'm aware there are other potential contributors, but makes you think my friends. Cheers!

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Metals in uoa = foaming ? No strong correlation there.Too many other potential causes.There would be other more obvious and immediate symptoms like excessive smoke from the tailpipe Pad wear - I mentioned filter/sump plate already. That is not uoa. Chemical reaction between the pad and an ingredient in the additive package is possible as the OP suggests. But # of dry starts and heat cycles are a big(?)part of the issue. The physical characteristics of the older pads are very different from the new ones ,so at some stage in the ageing process the additive package may accelerate pad hardening/brittle ?

^^good point(s) Schnell

Same problem with the B3 keyboards -chemical degradation !

^^^ Amen to that! You should see the oiling system on my B2 and B3 Hammond organs! But even still all the plastic and rubber parts have to be replaced to keep'm screamin' the awesome Hammond sound. Gotta love the tone wheel organ sound, but they are a beast to keep runnin! Cheers!

Joe Gibbs DT-40. Just do it then never think about oil again. I have no facts what so ever to back this up but I think my engine likes DT-40. I like to have a shot of it too each night before bed.

OP asked for my input here, I've already expressed my opinion about Mobile 1 in other treads. I use it in my engines, recommend it to my customers and also use it in my race bike. Fore more info please refer to my post#72 in tread titled "Another 996 has passed away..." Here's a link to page #5: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post13425611 .

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I thought you quit Rennlist? There's no "e" in Mobil, Marty.

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Oh sh.. so I've been using the wrong oil all this time? OMG is my oil made in China? My box says Mobile 1, lol. In this case forget my previous posts

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But, but, but you quit Rennlist, Marty. Honor your word, and take your ball home.

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I did quit rennlist, turns out they need 30 day notice. They are sooo money hungry that they made me stay a month longer than I wanted. I cannot even quit it as fast as I'd like! I'm here until the end of this month so I have 2 more weeks to **** you off

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I'd be glad to PayPal you the prorated charges for the 2 weeks.

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I carefully read the post linked above. It is mainly an anti Jake tirade. The 'technical' content is anecdotal. There is no factual/spec product comparison,no science,no tribology,no technical references -just feelings. It is entertaining but falls far short of any proof that Mobil 1 is equivalent to any other brand/type of oil. Specific to this thread, it contains nothing about the degradation of the tensioner pads due to the additive package in the engine oil. If I missed that please tell us where to find it. I am only interested in the facts and knowledge. The animus toward other Forum members seems to be the main subject and it is soooo tiresome.Back to tribology ?

^^^ Exactly, he just gave me a generic response towards his (already widely known) endorsement of Mobil 1 and completely disregarding my OP question which is really about the potential effects of detergents that are added to oils like Mobil 1 instead another lame debate over which oil is the best.

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All modern oils have detergent additives. The idea is to keep solids in suspension so the larger particles -- which are few -- are removed by the filter. The smaller ones are rather harmless -- more on this below -- but are kept in suspension so the solids along with the old oil are removed when the oil is drained. This is one reason why it is important the oil be drained when hot. There are a lot of solids in oil. Much of the used oil's darker color is due to solids in the oil, mainly soot. This soot is a real problem. I can remember a time before high detergent oils were common and seeing engines opened up and oh the sludge... Yuck! These are not million mile cab engines either just regular vehicles used by people for basic transportation. And oil changes were back then done at less than 5K miles. When Porsche went with hydraulic lifters it was initially concerned about particulate matter in the oil, particulate matter in particular that was smaller than the regular filter could remove. Porsche included a bypass filter which used a much finer filtering medium and some oil was routed to this bypass filter then the intent that over time the finer stuff would be removed and the lifters saved from the feared wear this particulate matter would produce. At some point Porsche determined the bypass filter while it probably removed some of the finer solids as intended the solids were not harmful to the engine and the bypass filter was done away with.

Marty may have a valid point but he seldom makes it very clearly or convincingly. I have tried to help him clarify his propositions in the past because English is not his first language and I like that he tries different/controversial products. It is a pity if good tech info gets dismissed just because it is badly presented. An (unrelated) example is his enthusiasm for roller(not ball) bearing IMSB. Latest anecdotal 'evidence' on the Forums indicates none of the anticipated failures - so far . But there was never a technical rebuttal to the concerns expressed about the inherent weaknesses of the roller bearing for this application. That deterred skeptics like me from considering it a viable alternative.Same with steel/iron liners. Now back to Mobil 1- perhaps Mobil 1 is the essential product that makes his iron/steel liners and roller bearing work ? Or at least the current additive package in Mobil 1 :-). Because we 'know' Marty is not using JGDT40 and he is using roller bearings and steel/iron liners.

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He gone. Again. Another ban. We won't see him anymore around here.

"This soot is a real problem. I can remember a time before high detergent oils were common and seeing engines opened up and oh the sludge... Yuck!" It is much more complicated than just soot.And the role of dispersants should be acknowledged as essential but different to detergents. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=258648 Tribology is a chemistry nerds subject?

Watch this video at 1:40. Lake Speed, Jr. with Joe Gibbs oils claims the right balance of detergents is the key. I've been using M1 for the entire life of my 996, but still makes me wonder if any of the popular oils have the wrong balance of dispersing additives which in turn could cause premature wear to rubber and plastic components in our engines. Maybe I'm beating a dead horse. The Importance of ZDDP - YouTube

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Maybe?

^^^play nice, rudeness not needed.

But you can have too much ZDDP.As Mr.Speed said - balance is the key. LN wrote about this-just search "How did you determine the recommended 0.12% Zn and P level (ZDP, a.k.a. ZDDP)?" and of course it has been extensively analyzed on BITOG. Search for ZDDP catalyst and ZDDP spalling to see extremes of the spectrum. It comes down to: "Who do you trust to recommend an oil for the M96 that has the optimal balance of additives?" Unless that source specifically mentions the M96 engine and clearly knows it's unusual lubrication issues, theirs is not a useful recommendation. There may be oils just as good or better than JGDT40 for the M96 but I have not read anything specific to the M96. Lots of 'feelings' and anecdotal based recommendations but no technically credible sources. A good example is the Indie above who uses Swepco 15w-40

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Hey, did you forget you were on RL?

Yea, I like you Alpine, but for a minute I thought you might be taken cues from Martin. ;-)

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From the link you provided: Detergents serve two principal functions. First, they lift any deposits from the surfaces from the surfaces of the engine to which they adhere to and then chemically combine to form a barrier film, which keeps the deposits from coming out of suspension and coagulating. Detergents form two kinds of barrier films. On small particles, (generally less than 0.02 microns in size), detergents form an absorbed film which slows down coagulation of the particles. On much larger particles, (ranging from 0.5 to 1.5 microns in size), detergents cause the particle surfaces to acquire an electrical charge of the same sign so they can repel each other. And from Joe Gibbs web site: Detergents and dispersants clean the engine, but they don�t distinguish between sludge, varnish and zinc � they clean all three away. Modern API certified oils contain higher levels of detergents and dispersants due to the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems on passenger cars and diesel trucks.

Perhaps you are missing the difference between the two types of chemical ? There is no point in lifting the deposits(detergents) if you can't keep the contaminants away from the critical areas (dispersants) . And these two quite different chemicals cause foaming, so you need an anti-foam additive -but that ratio is a compromise because it may antagonize the effectiveness of the detergent &/or dispersant or even the ZDDP for example. The compromise is based on the engine type and application targeted by the oil brand. The point is that the M96 has specific ,peculiar needs and there is no volume incentive for a big brand oil formulator to develop oils specifically for the M96. So we hope ,by coincidence that a high volume selling brand just happens to fit the needs of the M96. Since oil formulators do not publish their additive package profiles ,we are lost. The alternative is to rely on people we trust to do the formulating and testing. JG did that. To my knowledge no other company did any specific work on the M96 . Does anyone have a reference to such work by any other brand ? There is a lot more on this subject - some in easy-read segments on LN. LN even shows the deterioration of a chain tensioner pad that had been lubricated by Mobil 1. But I think we are loosing the audience. See you on BITOG for 'the rest of the story'

^^pretty deep there guys, but enjoy reading your thoughts on the matter. And it would be great to see a trusted publication on the subject to know what is the proven balance as Lake Speed Jr. suggests and if an imbalance could potentially harm internal plastic & rubber components.