About to Purchase a 2002 Cab

Hi all, I'm about to pull the trigger on a 2002 Cab with 19K miles in the Los Angeles area. I originally posted this on the West forum hoping for thoughts on where to do the PPI but haven't seen any responses. Can I get some some thoughts from you guys - expensive PPI or cheaper PPI? Any thoughts on what should be checked pre-purchase would also be helpful. I've narrowed the list to two vendors, both recommended on Rennlist. I've talked with both over the phone. Shop 1 (Callas) seems super attentive to detail and rattled off a potential laundry list items they'd want to inspect - PPI is normally $1700 - could be less, if they find something major, they call and ask if they should continue. They basically indicated I'd probably want to spend $5K-$6K to make the car a reliable daily driver (including PPI, IMS, Clutch while they're in there, water pump, hoses). I got a faint sense they were a bit snobby towards the 996. Their PPI is 10X more than vendor2 (Lucent). They want to keep the car for 1.5 days for the PPI. Lucent is very much in the vein of "just drive it" and don't worry so much. PPI cost is $175, but I will pay extra for them to check the oil and filter for metal flakes. But he only agreed do it after I pushed him the IMS issue. They seem too lax for my comfort, but they're highly recommended and much cheaper. E.g. he told me to just wait until I needed clutch service to do the IMS and just keep the oil levels good. Without starting a long debate, I don't think adequate oil levels were enough to maintain the bearings. Some notes on service history and test drive below: Car is running on original IMS bearings. No water pump/coolant changes. Service history indicates car was maintained well before mileage intervals, but the time intervals are stretched with 2 - 3 years routinely going between oil changes. 15K service was done at 7K miles (I'm guessing package deal was cheaper than some al a cart issues that needed to be addressed). Cylinder head replaced at 13K miles - don't know the story. I've never owned a Porsche, but test drive was fine from my perspective. Car pulled strong, shifted smoothly through all gears, braked good, all the electricals seemed to be working. Car did seem to have some rattles and noises you would anticipate from 14 year old car. Thanks in advance. Appreciate any feedback.

For what it's worth I bought an 03 C2 with 71k miles in April this year. The PostPurchaseInpsection + Annual Service I got the next week at the downtown Salt Lake City Porsche Dealership was mediocre. It failed to catch a minor oil leak coming from a rubber hose that wraps around the back of the motor (cabin side), even though it was an old leak. They caught two niggles I found before buying the car, minor stuff I can fix myself. After the PPI+Annual Service I scheduled an IMS Solution retrofit at an LN/Raby Certified shop in central Colorado. Their quote was 3.5k and Porsche SLC quoted 2.8k for a ceramic ball bearing. With both procedures expensive I decided the extra money was more than worth it. I don't want to spend 2.8k this year then another 2.8k in 3 years PLUS risk catastrophic engine failure during that 3 year interval.. just seems looney to me to not eliminate the risk for a small premium. Anyhow, the Colorado IMSsolution shop found the oil leak, replaced a dozen other simple wear items around the engine. This ended up including washers, hoses, AOS, clutch was brand new so no change, flywheel was fine, spark plugs were not done at the 60k interval so those were replaced, plus several other items I'm not remembering off-hand. Long story short the mechanic certified by LN/Raby was a surgeon that knew my 996 inside and out. He praised the car's overall condition and noted that prior maintenance had been done very carefully. Bolts, clips, and engine peripherals were all properly set up. The minor oil leak was simply a failing wear item. This kind of thoughtful review and feedback makes a big difference to me and will help me manage future maintenance. Already know my next scheduled maintenance outside of new fluids will be a new water pump. Existing one is working fine and I can keep an eye on gauges should it fail. The guys in SLC's downtown dealership didn't even know what an IMS Solution was, despite the fact they do LN IMS retrofits with the beefier ceramic bearings. My takeaway was that SLC is more interested in selling the new $250k GT3 RS and Cayman GT4s than giving A+ service for my aging-yet still-beautiful 996. I don't blame them, it's their business model. They will have my business in the future, but only for minor work. Any engine drops will go through my new 'surgeon' in Colorado if at all possible On a smooth road the 996 handles and feels like pure bliss, take a bumpy road and it'll teach you to be patient . Anyhow this is the road I've traveled so far and my personal finances dictate that if I'm going to own a 911 I'll need to be proactive and diligent with maintenance. I can afford a lot of maintenance but a full rebuild or new motor would force me to store it for a while as I save for a Flat6 3.8 build. That's my personal situation and preference though. The stock and ceramic LN bearings have the exact same vulnerability that can lead to catastrophic engine failure - design flaw on lube due to grease being stripped by hot oil splash, then a non lubricated bearing eventually capitulating. I chose to do the IMS solution to permanently fix the flawed bearing design in my 996 and allow me to focus on fun stuff like sway bars, plenum + intake, and a long list of interior refreshes. My car is an absolute pleasure to drive, it handles well on the track and sounds like a race car when pushed to the limit. What more can you ask for? Spend the money to get it right and then enjoy the hell out of it, imho. Gl whichever path you go! note: IMS Solution certified installers: http://theimssolution.com/certified-installers/

Thanks Tony. Like you, I'd prefer to pay for preventative maintenance vs chancing a blown engine. But $1700 for a PPI seems excessive, no? I'd rather put that towards actual work instead of just an inspection. Do you think it's worth it? FYI, LN retrofit is not optional in my mind. That will be done regardless, and clutch will at least be inspected while they're in there. No service records for the water pump/coolant - so that will probably be done immediately as well. P.S. I know about patience, my current ride is a pick up with very stiff suspension

A number of good shops are in the LA area. In what part of LA are you looking for a shop ? BTW, my car is an 02 cab also

Hi Alan, good taste in cars. I'm in Long Beach and I've settled on Callas or Lucent. Callas Rennsport wants $1700 and Lucent Motors wants $175 + whatever an oil change is so they can inspect the oil & filter. Do you think the Callas inspection is worth it? I'm not doubting their work, I'm just wondering if I really need that thorough of an inspection.

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Tough call on the PPI being 1700 - I would fully expect that they at least drop the transmission to inspect the interface with the engine. There are a few seals there I replaced along with washers on the cooling unit that were worn. Given the mere age of the vehicle I expect lots of rubber and possibly bolts/washers to need replacement. IF you can use that 1700 in labor to gain access and cheaply replace several parts like the RMS, AOS, Water Pump, worn hoses, bolts, etc. then YES I would do that. I've spent about $7k in two months addressing everything that was a major liability or minor but ugly worn parts. Nothing broke or left me on the side of the road, it was about 50/50 labor and parts to do an engine out externals refresh. The difference with your situation is it's not your car yet.... so depending on how confident you are in the condition of the car and how strong the desire is to pull the trigger, I would do it. In my situation the car was a Southern California car that was garaged and consistently serviced at 2 Porsche dealerships its entire life. The RMS was tight with no leaking and it felt mechanically sound at the limit. So my confidence was very high in the condition of the car - and a $1700 PPI with the option to use the labor for part replacement seems to fit that kind of scenario. If you have serious doubts about the purchase I would wait to spend the money on a car you are very confident in. On the LN retrofit, remember that it's a wear part. Replace every 5yrs / 60k or similar. So for the life of the car a ceramic bearing will be replaced several times @ $2.x k per install. The IMS solution at $3.5k is less money and lower risk in the long run (it is NOT a wear part, it is a permanent fix), so if you intend to buy long term and are already open to shelling out the money needed to get her tip top, make sure you do the math and know exactly what decision you are making. Again - gl, I'm biased of course so take my input alongside those of more experienced members here on RL. Cheers-

My two cents - (caveat - been cranky all week fighting migraines) a 2002 19K California cab, if the price is right and you really like the car, forget the PPI crap and buy it. Look, a PPI is just going to point out stuff that may need to, or should, be addressed. I have purchased many cars based on test drive and initial feel, no PPI, including current car. Then do what needs to be done. Put your money on that and then you'll know what you have. You said the standard IMS bearing, RMS, AOS, water pump and so on is going to be addressed anyway...so skip the PPI and put the money towards the repair/PM work. Then enjoy your ride! These cars are a blast and there really is no substitute.

Thanks guys, just met with Callas in person. Good guy with great race work pedigree. There is overlap between the PPI and any work to be done. If they give me the thumbs up, I'll purchase the car with it still at the shop and Tony can commence work. If they come across significant issues, they're going to check in with me and cease work until they hear from me. I just can't afford have this go belly up (e.g. significant metal content already in the oil). Thanks guys. Thanks guys.

Is the owner really willing to let you have this invasive a PPI done on their car? There is no way on earth I would let anybody drop the tranny on my car unless they were buying it period. I would not accept the car back under any circumstances. What will you do if you spend 1.7k for the PPI and a simple filter check would have told you the engine was belly up? Respectfully, this is nuts. Why would you buy a car that needs anything besides normal wear items, like tires. The only reason to do that is because you negotiated a price based on those items that need to be fixed. These are great cars but come on guys. They are cars. They break. All cars can break, even catastrophically. If you go into this thinking I just need to replace all 27 points of failure and then I can drive it to Starbucks and back once a week worry free, you are deceiving yourself, it will find a number 28. More likely, even if you do nothing more than regular maintenance with the suggestion for short interval oil changes, it will happily tool along for another 100K-300k miles. Fixing things that aren't broken can, and often does, cause more harm than good. If you plan to race it, that is different. Porsche built the M96/7x series because in the words of just about every engineer that worked on the designs, the M96/0x engines were not designed for or suitable for racing. The Turbo, GT2, GT3 and Cup cars used Metzger engines because the M96 was not suitable. It is a road engine. It can be raced of course and be great fun but if it blows the AOS what did you expect? There is a reason they sell a $700 motorsport AOS. If you go through the catastrophic AOS failure threads, at some point the vast majority were tracked. An AOS failure can happen to any M96 but in normal road use you will almost surely see the puff of smoke long before you get into Oh-s..t land. These engines, like all others, have weaknesses but the paranoia here is off the charts. The last 996 I bought I did spend 4k right up front on, but I negotiated the price down 5k in advance or I would have walked. There are tens of thousands of these cars.

Have to agree with tharbin. If you have back pain and you go to a surgeon, he'll tell you he has to operate. Everyone talks their own book. Sounds like you should keep your money in your pocket until you drive some more cars. The IMS stuff is a little crazy. You can "proactively" put in an aftermarket IMS bearing that will have to be changed every 5 years or 50k miles...or you can talk to the owners who are racking up 50, 60 100, 200, plus thousands of miles on the original factory bearing. And you can read all the comments by those who have changed their bearings only to note that the factory bearing they took out looked perfect...and that can be at 100k and higher...but the new bearing they have put in isn't safe past 50k. I don't need an engineering degree to tell you all the things you should change in a ten plus year old used car...rubber dries out, shocks go limp...eventually everything will break...maybe even in your lifetime. And maybe it won't. The $175 PPI sounds like the way to go. Smell the arm pits, trim the long nose hair, and drive the hell out of it.

Thanks for the perspective everyone, it's really helpful. The first thing I did after my decision was to instruct the seller to call the shop to avoid any misunderstandings. The seller agree to the inspection. That being said, the tranny is not being dropped. Even if it were, this is a highly reputable shop. If I don't buy, they seller is getting a free oil and filter change, among other things, from a top shop in the area (and the car is due). Being that the seller is a used car dealership, I'm sure they'll use that as a marketing item. I know the price seems steep, but I have reasons that I can post later if you care. JohnI, I don't disagree with your point. You just have a higher risk threshold. My understanding is that the failure rate for the single row of IMS bearings is 8%. I'm just not comfortable with that - I'm leaning towards the permanent plain bearing from LNE if I decide to get the car. Agree with your points on the wear items, a quick search on Rennlist will tell me everything that should be replaced immediately if I choose to do it. Tharbin, I also agree with your point that you can't address everything. But every unexpected trip to the shop to address things as they break is less time with family. I've got a demanding job and it just doesn't give me much time with the family. It's why I'm buying the Porsche. I can't spend half a day on the weekend to hit local twisties on my motorcycle - but I can load my toddler and wife into the Porsche and bring them with me and get some semblance of the bike, especially with the cab. My wife, who also rides and misses it, will also get to drive and enjoy the car all while spending time with our kid. Thanks again everyone.

I also have an 02 cab (and also ride: 08 Busa, 09 Vespa and 02 Road King). my 2 cents: buy the car and take it straight to Callas using the $1700+ towards all the preventive/upgrade stuff. is this amount strictly for PPI? then will it also be credited towards PREQUAL for IMSB?

Kromdom, PPI includes the prequal. There are some items in the service history that make me a bit nervous about buying without checking it out.

I had a much less costly PPI done before I purchased my 02. I did take my car in 4 days after purchase to have the LN IMSB ,RMS , clutch, and water pump changed. Also had all the fluids replaced. It may not have needed all the above but I sure sleep better at night Alan

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Hey Alan, What was the cost of all that service?

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mrj, I'd be very interested in the details later. Maybe we can all learn something. Even at a very high-end shop it seems like you are talking about 6-7 hours of labor since you don't typically have parts beyond a filter, some oil and maybe a gasket or two consumed during a PPI. I doubt even a top and bottom boroscope could take that long. That said, it is your money and if you are comfortable it is not my place to argue. It is best to address things up front and if you are doing the IMSB, which seems prudent on any small-single-row, then the IMSB Solution seems to be a no-brainer. I wasn't trying to second guess you but the number of times you read on here something like: "I just bought a great 1999 C2 cab, full service history, no problems always dealer maintained..." Then in the next paragraph: "took it to my indie had the IMSB, water pump, AOS, spark plugs, coolant, brake fluid and oil/filter changed. While I was in there I had the clutch replaced. Car runs like new". It makes me insane watching guys throw 5-7k at a 20k car that needed nothing because they read all of the horror stories on here. Then six months later something breaks and he complains about how expensive they are to maintain: "spent 7k on repairs and now my coolant tank is leaking". How do you tell the poor guy that he spent 7k alright but the only part of it that was "maintenance" was the fluids, and they only provided a known baseline if it was really well maintained.

@Mrjonger. How much are you buying the car roughly for? If it's a 02 and never had a water pump, coolant tank changed, also a garage queen I think it is good a idea to have all of those changed. There is enough info on what will fail for sure on the 996/986 parts after a period of time/miles.

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My car had an original IMSb (weak single row - 3.5k for perm fix). AOS hadn't been replaced in a while, several worn parts were replaced. Throwout bearing was showing signs of failure, so it was replaced. The engine was dropped after finding an oil leak - again, not a pristine part but a flaw in need of correction. No new clutch as existing one was fairly new. Spark plugs were checked and were near the end of useful life, so I elected to replace them after looking at them. You spent $4k on your car after buying it, very similar to what I did. Please explain how what you did was different than what I did, because it sounds like you're just knee-jerk lip flapping on something you did yourself.

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Think it was right around $4200. The service manager told me he forgot to put the clutch replacement on the invoice . That was a freebie I didn't pay for

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TTB, not a thing different, other than maybe the AOS. You replaced what was worn and replaced the IMSB that has a high failure rate. I bought a car that had a very high probability of a small-single-row, I factored that into my offer. I knew it needed motor mounts, transmission mount, brake rotors, updated coolant cap and gas cap. I suspected it needed plugs. I spent $100 for a PPI to look for other stuff and they found torn front axle boots as well. My final offer reflected those items. Should I have replaced the AOS and water pump? Why? They aren't failing and new does not always equal better. I did have one unplanned expense up front. When the transmission was dropped the clutch, which seemed to be working perfectly had very uneven wear patterns and I elected to replace it. The previous owner had a hip replacement and must have been having issues with the clutch. I know he sold it to get a tip car. How many times do you read guys on here that replaced the IMSB in their 99? Dual rows have a roughly 1.5% failure rate, maybe 150 cars worldwide. I see you did not replace the water pump, according to this forum you need to replace it every three years or your car will disintegrate. Same with the AOS. You are more likely to have a failure on a brand new AOS then on one that has shown no signs of failure in 15+ years. Old cars need maintenance items, What bothers me is the knee-jerk of "better replace..........." without any regard for the maintenance history of the car, the new owner's finances or even, dare I say "reality"?

Fair enough. A lot of the issues I've read about seem to stem from negligence, on the part of owners or suppliers / mechanics. A good mechanic will tell you not to replace something that's not a liability. When talking through my recent major service the mechanic steered me away from a lightweight flywheel as they break crankshafts. I got the rundown on AOS/water pump liability and we spotted and replaced a worn RMS, cooling hose, A/C o-rings and oil cooler seals. The way I look at the initial outlays is like you say, a baseline. From there you still have the reality that a Porsche may need sequential, expensive repairs. That is the cost to enjoy these things. The big thing for me is to protect against engine failure as much as possible. If that does happen though I would not want to sell it. Even in a few short months I've done a lot of work on the interior to refresh it back to spec and suit me. It's a color and configuration that brings a smile every time it's driven (6-7 days a week). Sounds like the OP has a very reputable shop that's actually certified to install the IMSB solution and identify anything else that is a major liability. Seems like a good chance for a positive outcome.

Wow $1700 for a PPI is insane! I guess if it were a 200k car but not for a 996. For $1700 you could buy almost every wear item hard part. IMS , AOS , RMS , water pump, coolant, clutch , flywheel , then even have money left over for new brake pads and fluid. Buy the 101 Porsche projects book and get intimate with her.... Seriously though 19k miles is nothing. Mine has 103k and I ride her hard.

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You're still high. Typical cost for a PPI on a late model (1990s-early 2000s) Ferrari, so 100k-500k car is $500. To be sure I was right, I just double checked with someone that has several cars, mainly Ferraris, PPI'd every week for the last 40 years. At $1.7K you are usually talking about a rare model that may have authenticity issues. That can get expensive fast.

@Tharbin, no offense taken and the points were very valid. The cost is actually $1500, but still very high for what it is. But I'm still willing to do it. 1. Seller is sticking firm to $31K. Which I would pay if the car had a great maintenance history, it doesn't. Seller is also indicating IMS bearings have been replaced because paperwork says IMS seal had been replaced in 2004.I need definitive proof and this item will be verified in the PPI. Its one thing to argue this with a potential 1st time Porsche owner, it's another to argue with Tony Callas. So he's a hired gun and I'm hoping he can drive down the price more than the cost of his PPI. 2. I'm going to be on the road while this is happening. With the PPI happening at Tony's shop - it's seemless. It's delivered to Tony for PPI and he reports back to me. If all's good, I buy the car while the car is still at Tony's and he begins work immediately. I'm selling my daily driver to help out with this, so I need the car as soon as possible. I like I mentioned earlier, it's not an automatic $1500 - I'll be getting updates throughout the day.Thanks again everyone.

I'm lagging on the follow-up. Thanks everyone for the input. I ended up purchasing the 2002 Cab. I'll post up pics when I get a chance. After seeing the Callas PPI, the dealer dropped the cost from $31K to $28.5K. The results may have been the same with a cheaper PPI, but I figure I built a relationship with a reputable shop that's close to my work in the process. The only thing that didn't go right was there was a couple of additional work items when Tony opened up the transmission. Flyweel was machined down and needed to be replaced (wtf) and clutch need to be replaced (@ 19K miles, unbelievable - but I saw the parts). I'm not sure this would have drove down the price further, but I sure as hell would've asked. Oh, and brakes have started squeaking recently (pads are at 8 mm, so pretty new). While Tony had it, IMS Solution was installed & the water pump was swapped. A couple of other odds and ends like a magnetic oil plug and filter magnet among other things. AOS readings were coming in fine, so we decided to leave those alone. The price seems a bit steep, but I think I got a decent deal all things considered. She only has 19K miles, full leather interior, optional hardtop with stand, Bose system (has Alpine double din head with Nav - but is dated and tempted to change to Carplay). My last car was a truck, so I was expecting a improvement in ride quality...I was pretty wrong on that one! I was surprised given all the literature saying how easy it is to DD these and how purists say it was too soft compared to older models. I cannot get over how quick the clutch is - I had to ride the clutch quite a bit in the truck to make it smooth. The acceleration is unbelievable, I cannot believe these are considered "momentum" cars. It's like riding a wider version of my motorcycle.

Thanks for the update, and congrats!

You sound happy and comfortable with your choices and that is really all that is important. I agree with your finding that the car is fast...these early cars are wonderful drivers with all the performance you can use on real world roads. Sadly the state of roads in lots of southern California can make even a Porsche sometimes feel like a truck. Have a wonderful time.

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Thanks, agree on the roads. I'm going to take her up to Angeles Crest soon, I'm a bit concerned about how that's going to turn out. The drive up there isn't going to be a picnic either.

Congratulations! Post some pics.

congrats. a SoCal GTG in San Diego might happen on 31JUL...awesome excuse for you to take the new Porsche on a road trip https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...rnoon-gtg.html