Preemptive PPI

If I want to sell my car, would buyers prefer their own PPI or would it be beneficial to have the pan dropped with an oil filter check etc ahead of time for the buyer's confidence? Professional detail, professional pictures, up to date maintenance, what's important in the 911 buyer's pool? or just ignore all that trash and list it on BAT for 25% over market +buyer's fees?

Personally, I probably wouldn't sell to anyone who wanted to do a PPI. With the market hot and plenty of competition between sellers, I see no reason to tie the car up waiting for a PPI. I'd spend the money on a detail and tell any buyer that they are welcome to bring anyone they want to inspect the car on site.

WT, have you ever had a borescope done?

It depends. If a seller has UOAs, reasonably comprehensive maintenance history, Durametric printout and recent pics from last time sump was dropped (and bonus camera footage of the bottoms of the cylinders); I personally would not need a PPI. I’d be confident in my buying decision. Alternatively, if you could have a list of area experts available for PPI and what your conditions are for getting the PPI done, I think you’d have the option to do less up-front prep time and out-of-pocket cost. If you do everything in paragraph 2 of your post and have the PPI options for them, you’ll max profit potential and min time/cost for sale. Screw BaT and the s*** show that circus can become. A buyer will see the car, talk to you and get psyched about the purchase, leaving bags of large denominations on your counter.

Buyer always beware. Represent the car as best you can. Receipts, clean it up and take some great pics and driving videos. If you do your own PPI people will be skeptical and may even hold you liable for the results say something were to happen. Let the buyer pay for their own PPI then they and their mechanics are responsible. Just make sure you get a copy of said PPI for your records.

If I were to put my car up for sale on BAT, PCAR or whatever, I would do the following to get top dollar. 1. Scope the Bores , take lots of pictures and video to prove they are in excellent shape. 2. Begin an oil testing regime over the next 6 months to prove that the internals of the engine are in excellent shape. 3. Take footage of an oil and filter change with opening up the filter to prove there is no debris. 4. Construct a binder with all 20 years of service records, parts etc; to prove that the car has been properly serviced. These 4 things prove that your car is mechanically sound. If you see something for sale and these 4 things aren't included, it means either the owner is clueless, or the owner doesn't have anything good to report, and you should run as freeking fast from the car as you can. Yes, car detail inside and out and fixing any imperfections is important as well. But proving engine health is paramount. So if you car looks beautiful and you can prove it has a great engine, then you get big bucks. If your car looks beautiful and you cannot prove it has a great engine, then you may or may not get big bucks depending on the whims of the market on that particular day. Lastly, if you get a bore scope, begin an oil testing regime, check your oil filter and sump a few times and find nothing, you may breath a sigh of relief and fall in love with your 996 all over again. Worst case is that if your car and engine are perfect, and you don't get the price you want, you don't have to sell it. You have the luxury of waiting for when the market is ready for higher quality 996s.

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no I'm only 34

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lmao buying a 996 is the worst decision I've ever made

If it's a 3.4L I wouldn't bother with borescoping or a PPI if the car is well documented. 3.6L or 3.8L absolutely borescope with part of PPI. I wouldn't necessarily do it as a seller, but that's become I'm lazy. If a seller wanted to pay and there wasn't a rush on sale, wouldn't mind letting them have one done. Professional detail and pictures are subjective. As long as the car is well cared for, not sure those extra costs are really worth it. Personal opinion.

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only if you bought a lemon.

I’d list it for the price I want and not spend an unnecessary dollar more than I thought it would take to get it. If market was soft to my price and I thought additional investment in PPI or detailing or whatever was required, I d either lower the price or give the market what it wants.

What GC996 said 100%. What I would add to that is, if you're not selling it on an auction site and will post it elsewhere, be it facebook marketplace or craigslist, put some thought into writing a proper ad copy. Be honest and tell a story of the ownership and why you're selling it. I can't stress enough how well stuff like that will resonate with the right buyer. No need to be poetic or anything but this is your opportunity to demonstrate how well you know and took care of the car. Doing this will probably also answer many common questions a buyer will have. The right buyer will appreciate this and it will make for a smooth experience for both parties. I've done this recently with my dads 2005 Forested with over 160k miles and it was a seamless of a transaction as you'd want. In the world of ads that go "runs well, no accidents and runs well" you want to stand out and it pays.

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See:

Or just list it for sale and see what you get. Even though I have owned my 996 since 2002, I have only been on RL since 12/19, so I have no long-term data to quantify typical turnover of the 996. But it seems that a number of folks who purchased a 996 during the pandemic are about to sell their cars. Whether it's a profit trade, been there and done that trade, or a "reality has set in that it costs money to service these cars" sale... If you want top dollar, you gotta do top dollar things. If you just want any dollar due to the whims of the market, just list it and be done with it. You will be missed.

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Here is how the E30 M3 market has been since 2016. E30 M3 for sale. Inquire within. Maybe 1 pic if you are lucky. Seller gets 1XX inquires that day. The buyers will come, throw it up. But you better be prepared when they start calling. Send out the email instantly showing records, amazing pics etc... That's what sells a car. The car yes of course, but how the seller responds is more important. I don't mind the lazy for sale ad but stay away from the lazy seller after initial contact has been made.

I hate lazy for sale ads and always try to be straight forward and honest. of course my last cars haven't been such awful piles of crap that a 60k mile engine needed to be disassembled prior to purchase

This. While a proactive bore scope top and bottom would surely make anyone more comfortable, but so might $1000 or $2000 off the asking price. Generally, when trying to offload a vehicle that you really wish you hadn�t purchased, it�s best to sell as-is without spending too much time and effort improving things, unless you have a passion and love for those things. But OP doesn�t, so, don�t.

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That cup of 996 cup of koolaide hate is draining slowly enough. I think a lot went to the 991 GT3 engine Porsche had to warranty for 10 years. I suspect Lots of owners out there redlining upon startup just to blow theirs up as we speak.

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there is no amount of passion in the world to account for a 35k dollar engine rebuild in a 35k dollar car lol

Detail your 996 inside and out. Take or have someone take some quality detailed photos. List the car with an honest description including all maintenance and faults. Done If a buyer wants a PPI they can pay for it.

I try to be very thorough when listing a car but I think I would leave the PPI up to a potential buyer. I think getting it cleaned up and any maintenance it needs I would most likely take care of it. Outside of that I am happy to help with the PPI if a potential buyer is going to be paying for it.

Said every person who decided not to pull the trigger on a Ferrari Mondial.

Well, there are some who want the performance of a 996tt, and like the 996 platform, but want a lighter car or one that handles a little better. The 996tt is easily now $55-$70k and will likely be $100k in 5 years.

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Same thing can be said for a used Aston. Buddy of mine has a 2008 and he was running thru the costs and I was very happy I owned a 996. His old man owned a Testarossa, same thing but even more expensive. The 996 is cheap from a servicing standpoint versus the vast majority of performance sports cars. ​​​​​​it's not the cost to buy the car, it's the cost to keep it serviced and running. This is why we have so many under serviced examples of 996s. After the warranty ended, so did the service.

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Why do you feel this is ultimately inevitable? There are plenty of 100k+ and even 200k/300k+ mile 996's on the road on original engines.

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You are talking to a guy with the 996 passion. I plan on doing it when the time comes. Maybe it's because I have had the car for 20 years and have had more fun with it on and off the track than any middle aged man should have with his clothes on. Or maybe it's because I understand what it can actually do on the track with only 320 Hp. Unfortunately, many new owners haven't had the chance to experience this. You develop an extreme appreciation for the car and it's capabilities. When instructing students at PCA events, I usually wait until the 3rd session to strap them into my car and take them out with the big boys. Their reaction is priceless. There is not one who doesn't say... I had no idea the 996 could do this. What an incredible car. ​​​​​​Then I say... Yep, it's a 996 and an incredible car.

I love the car, and don't really plan to sell it. Its actually my daily driver and I just put snow tires on it. but there are too many good cars out there to get tied down with a single platform, I'm just trying to prepare for the inevitable.

Answer to your question @work_truck - someone actually posted the question on the Off Topic members forum "What if I started a website like Cars n Bids but I had PPI's on every car" and the response was resoundingly "I wouldn't trust it I would want to hire my own." And I echo the sentiment, not worth your money. Spend it on the detail!

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I sure as hell hope so!

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Personally I wouldn't trust a seller's PPI either, but I wanted this forum's input. also never know a seller's PPI consists of and might have to end up having a second one anyway. I've had similar discussions with friends but my idea is more of a crowdsourced app that let you find qualified people to PPI/test drive cars for you out of state/area so if you want to buy a car 1800 miles away, you can hop on the app and find Jim who has successfully driven 65 transactions and specializes in european cars to go check something out for you for $50 or something

most shops offer a full inspection with any service. Between mentioning that at a recent service, and self providing a current DME engine report and any past or present fault codes is all I plan to list with my car. Owning a durametric is really worth it if you plan to buy/sell Pcars for a while. they work on every generation up to 991 so far. If anyone wants to pay for an additional inspection I will accommodate them as long as they're paying and they're the highest offer.

I think if BaT got big enough they could afford to incorporate better vetting and inspections into their platform. Sure you still wouldn't trust it 100%, but having one of their employees fly out to see the car and give it a once over seems like a pretty cheap thing to do with the money they are rolling in.

You are onto something. ​​​He'll, if we have people picking up food for people at different eateries, no reason why we can't have the same for PPIs. Think of us little people when you go public for a couple of billion. All you really need is a network of Indies that want to participate.

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Yep always nice to have the feedback. The forum is 20% ... 15% good for that I completely understand why the seed for the concept keeps getting planted; and I suppose if everything could be done with timestamped video then at least having the PPI on film would help calm the nerves of those who think "the whole show is rigged." But that requires quite a bit of bandwidth, resources, etc. Lots (for someone else) to think about. Car buying right now is so interesting because as others have said - for every guy you get with trust issues you'll get a guy with a stupid smile on his face and cash in his hand. I'm not going to name names but there were some famous members on here who got famous for flipping bad cars because it was honestly so easy to find someone who would just buy the car without asking any questions...

The key to making a new site like this work comes down to trust and solving that problem. This is one reason why CarMax has been so successful. They have a 30 day money back guarantee. Or CPO cars with extended warranty. Buyer trust skyrockets and they pay a little extra. If something like that existed for specialty cars, and there was a way to document condition beforehand, it could work and be a differentiator. Otherwise, it�s hard to compete in a world where money and reach/marketing trump ethics.

I’ll test drive a car for anyone who asks that’s willing to fund a fajita dinner with 2 tall boys. I’m self declaring that I am certainly qualified for the role. PS - no FWD, no sub 250 HP, nothing built between the years of 1978 and 1992.

having someone whose driven one before would actually be a valuable service. no joke. I have an uncle whose owned every generation of 911 and the first thing I did was have him drive it to make sure the suspension felt right. I'll offer up my services too!

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Except for the fact that these services are absolute garbage and have nothing but layers of fees and constant problems. Seems like it'd be a good idea, but you'd need a small dedicated team to make it work.

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No question. Very few of the new "tech" convenience services have any long-term competitive advantage. They can be put out of business if/when more competition arises. But isn't business all about solving problems. The question is will the volume be enough to making a profitable business. Time will tell. We know the biggest problem for buying a used 996 is that many prospective buyers want a 996 but are flying blind. The smart ones get on this forum and start asking questions. But I suspect that most don't even know the forum exists let along what to be aware of. ​​​​​​In concept, this service may be able to provide a viable solution to those that are flying blind.

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Never happen. BaT is careful to remain in only a matchmaker role. No reason to take on any liability of essentially "certifying" a BaT piece...not to mention the massive conflict of interest of them evaluating something that they are paid commission on the sale of. Higher rating, higher sale price, higher commission. For those buying anything with an M96/M97 engine, your PPI should focus on engine health alone. You can check paint with a meter, read your own carfax, and generally look the car over. Brakes? Shocks? Meh. Normal wear items. A PPI that does not look at bore scoring is not worth paying for. Full disclosure: Not a fan of PPI. Never done one. Buy the seller, use your eyes, trust your gut.

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you wouldn't test drive an Integra Type-R?

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I�ve driven a friends ITR� no, unless it has ITBs and a redline north of 10K� not interested.

You're dead to me

My view as a small business owner in the trades, is the last thing I need is someone else in my pocket, defining what I can charge. The used car market, especially the exotics or classics has always been hostile to people without knowledge. If you want the car, whatever that is, do the research, find people, here and abroad who know what they are doing and ask questions. Use your gut too, usually you can tell whether the seller is full of @hit or honest, maybe doesn't know much but at least is straightforward about what they know.

Well I took the car in today for a PPI (post purchase inspection) finally, and it went great. Couple small maintenance needs but overall in great health. now I'm going to list it for sale

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That's where I'm at with mine. I opted to buy a short block and do the the labor myself. Still a staggering amount of money to spend. I'm not in love with the car as it's a car. My favorite car is my 94 Ford Ranger. I paid $1000 for it 15 years ago. It starts, and runs and drives every time. Tell us about the PPI. Did they scope? Who did it? I am going to drive mine for a bit after the rebuild and then pass it along for someone else to spend money on. Keep us apprised of where you list it. BaT is a great place to sell a car, but not a great place to buy a car. For the biggest buck I would list it there. FWIW that's where I got mine and got completely ripped off. Best,

As a buyer: Good luck finding somebody that did a PPI, has perfect record history, oil analysis of the past 6 months, video footage of everything, dropped the pan multiple times with footage, oil samples, etc. You'll be waiting almost certainly an eternity if ever finding one. Certified pre-owned loaner cars don't have that kind of record history. As a seller: If somebody had all of that presented to me, I'd be more skeptical than a car with no service history. Like, why are you spending thousands of dollars and tons of man-hours to sell a vehicle when it's As-Is anyways? You see that as transparent, I see that as fishy and over-selling it. At the end of the day, it's a 20 year old car...the Concours car will need something from being not driven. The car with it being driven daily will need something. Bottom line? If it's in your budget, you or somebody you trust has looked it over, and your gut tells you it's OK, it's probably OK. Just buy with common sense knowing it's not a brand new car.

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Just a thought from a 20 year owner of a 996. If I was to sell my car (i am not) and attempt to get top dollar I would want to prove its in perfect mechanical shape. So I would not only show the complete service history over the past 20 years, I would also show the bores and sump including the oil filter in pictures/video. As well as the oil tests. Plus I would give the prospective buyer the name of the shop to call and discuss. Why, because my car is in awesome shape. I service the he'll out of it anyways so why not prove it. If it wasn't, I would do like the vast majority of sellers do, and list it with a couple of service records and a trust me. There is a reason why most of the cars on Bat have no service records or info. It's because they haven't been properly serviced. That may be the difference between and extra 5-10k depending on market forces.

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You won't test drive my red VW? FWD, 1992, 240WHP.

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no this is just a normal PPI, I would never bother pulling an oil pan for a car with no issues. if a buyer wants to pay for it, I'll happily drop it off to be done.

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Luckily I have great service records!

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Did they at least scope the cylinders on bank#2?

When you sell real estate do you hire an inspector for the buyer or is this just for old cheap cars? This is nonsense.

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That car is special because of the celebrity ownership and has earned an exemption.

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Maybe or maybe not. But to your point, I would wager a guess that less than 10% of today's buyers get a bore scope done. But that will change as the 996 market continues to heat up, since borescoring is guaranteed slow death for an engine. ​​​​​​Pity the seller who hasn't gotten their car scoped who is trying to sell it when an intelligent buyer gets it scoped and finds scoring. The sale price will very quickly go from 40k to 10k. Seems to me the best course of action is to (1) change your oil very frequently, (2) check your oil pan and oil filter for debris on a frequent basis, (3) get a bore scope ever year or two, (4) take pictures in case you want to sell your car, and (5) test your oil. Funny thing is I am going thru this exercise tomorrow with my shop. But no, I have no intention of selling my car. But I do have every intention of keeping it running. So I gotta keep looking inside. I suspect the 996 market will bifurcate in prices over the next year or two with proof from the seller that the bores are good. IMHO, right now it's a buyer beware market. It will eventually become a seller beware market.

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This is the mentality that has led to many subsequent RL posts that start with "My new 911 is suddenly making a ticking sound.........." Unless the "somebody you trust" has x-ray vision and can see the inside of the cylinder walls this mentality will end up costing you more than you bargained for.

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There is no such thing as a seller beware market for used cars (In the states), it's as is. Doing due diligence for a buyer for anything cars, boats, houses, etc... is foolish. I'm not proposing being dishonest but there is no way I'm finding problems for a buyer that's their job.

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Seller beware is when you have bore scoring and you don't know it and the prospective buyer gets a bore scope and they find it. You wanted 40k and now they offer you 10k. Good luck seller, you should have been aware.

Lets now fast forward a few years and the good examples of the 996 are now going for 60k. Seller didnt check their engine for borescoring and they put it on the market. Prospective buyer gets a scope done and finds borescoring. Seller wanted 60k and buyer offers 10k. You get the idea. The higher prices go for the 996, the more the buyers will start to check. Seller beware.

Many 996 sellers don't want to have their cars go through an invasive inspection because they're scared what that may reveal.

Yep. My engine has been performing beautifully, and would be very surprised if I developed any bore scoring. But I am dreading tomorrow because my shop will be checking for everything. Can I say dreading again. But, I gotta go thru the engine with a fine tooth comb if I want to get it back out on the track again.

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Would be interested in seeing the results. Mainly as you're one of the few folks that has owned the car for so long, track it somewhat regularly and is trying to do the right things to keep it going.

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Thanks Pete. I do plan on posting info. I am going thru a three phase project. Phase 1 is going thru the engine and parts with a fine tooth comb, seeing what I got and replacing parts etc. Assuming everything is good, we will go to the next phase, which is highly likely. Phase 2 will be more oil cooling and UIDS; to address cooling, oil starvation and pressure stability. Phase 3 will be anything we missed. We may be starting oil cooling in phase one to see where additional oil cooling can be fitted in the car. Once the fitment is figured out we can then test it. But unfortunately, it's just too damn cold here to test anything until spring. I'll have some more details as things progress.

I hear you. I have a few maintenance items to take care off too so waiting for the warmer temps. I'm planning to pull the plastic underbody covers and spend some time under there inspecting and cleaning. Would love to pair the UIDS with my next oil change, which is creeping up! To stay somewhat on-topic, the day I bought the car, I also bought a binder which houses every receipt I collect for the car related purchases. Along with a spreadsheet in Google this should give anyone some good info should I ever want to sell it. It doesn't take much work at all and shows you the type of owner you're dealing with IMHO. Not everyone cares and appreciates this but the right buyer will. This goes for simple things like washing and cleaning a car when showing it to someone. I've seen some filthy cars which turned me away. If someone doesn't care enough to put some soap in a bucket and wipe down the dust from the dash I doubt they did much on the mechanical front.

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Let�s be realistic here (or maybe you�re being facetious?). As a buyer, YOU should be doing your due diligence as a buyer, having it inspected and asking the pertinent questions. There a HUGE difference between asking if somebody has all the maintenance records and then being turned off cause guy doesn�t have laboratory tests and bore scope pictures for every oil change he�s done since 2002. Let�s be a little realistic here. Sure, if you want to be the seller that provides all that info, good on you. Whoever buys the car is in for a treat and that�s probably 1 in a million. But let�s be honest, you probably don�t ever see that without the price tag being a little unrealistic for most people. Same goes for being a seller, you shouldn�t be a shady dirtbag and not disclose known issues, but that�s on the buyer to come and do their due diligence on the purchase and having realistic expectations on buying a used, 20 year old car.

Pete, You are building out a well maintained and documented car. I enjoy the work you have done on it thru your posts. I try to do projects every year to check, replace, upgrade, etc. But this year is all about bores and oil. Just like you, I have a binder of records and spreadsheets. Labor of love keeping the car in top shape.

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The dirtbags put heavy oil in their car, dump it on carmax and then some unsuspecting victim buys his "dream car" that soon becomes their "nightmare".

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Nate, I agree, the buyer should be doing their due diligence and the seller shouldn't sell something that is about to grenade. But unfortunately, as sale volumes went into high gear over the pandemic, we have seen that both the buyer and seller failed on both ends. We have had one too many failures from bore scoring with newly acquired cars. As prices go up for the 996 over the next few years, its inevitable that buyers will most likely get more serious about scoping for bore scoring, which in turn will put pressure on sellers to check their bores before they put the car up for sale, or they will get an unpleasant surprise with the sale price of their car. Along the way, owners of 996s will eventually make scoping their bores every so often a consistent practice within their servicing regime. So in the end, the guys that can prove at the beginning of the sales process that they have good bores, upgraded IMSB and UAOSs, solid service records etc, will command a higher price. Just how markets evolve over time.

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Oh, I hear ya...that's why I don't trust those places as far as I can throw them. Luckily I was able to get a PPI within my grace period buying from a dealer for my Macan Turbo..I "lucked out" on cause that was bought sight unseen and delivered. My 996 on the otherhand, eveybody in the area knew him and the car...small town, guy's a small business owner, it wouldn't be in his best interest to sell a dud or a car that needed a lot without being up front and that fact his business is next door to the Indy and that's the cork board I saw the ad on...I also lucked out on that one I guess. It had an amazing, documented service history, but the IMS wasn't done....so far I've spent close to $7000 on the car, shocks/springs, mounts, brakes, IMS solution...but I also bought the car $10k under market..so it's a wash....granted, all it NEEDED was brake pads and arguably the IMS, but I figured I'd do it all anyways for me . And I'm not mad about it...but maybe I'm a little more understanding in that regard of buying an 18 year old car? Agreed. On all fronts. Like you said, it's the evolving market, and some of it I think is specific to this car. Having all that documentation up front is a bonus, I just think, atleast for me being a skeptic, it would raise some flags and make me thing "what's the catch...what I'm I missing..." unless the asking price is higher than market, then yeah, that's understandable...unfortunately, as you point out, there aren't many of those types of people out there with that kind of documentation. I personally keep all the info in an excel spreadhseet of mileage, date, itemized list, and cost along with a total at the bottom...both of the records before purchase, the purchase date of the car, and then my purchases/expenses after in a timeline fashion...along with the reciepts in an accordion binder in chronological order so you can match it to the spreadsheet. That's just the engineer in me doing that for my own purposes and OCD....which, in the event it comes time to sell it, will benefit me....hopefully. Or it'll make me look suspect for having everything in a binder and a spreadsheet

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except that's not how the world works...In your hypothetical situation, the buyer got the value of the car because the buyer did his due diligence If the buyer chooses not to do that's not magically on the seller (assuming he did not know also). That's what AS-IS means in a private party sale. When you sell a house you should refuse to see the buyer's inspection, if the deal goes **** up and you've seen it you are updating a disclosure form with everything they found. I could care less why you don't want to purchase something I'm selling, bring the money make the offer. I bought my car with no PPI and mythical bore scoring has not gotten me, does it happen sure. This "community" loves scaring people with biased observational "data".

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Do you care to provide any "unbiased data" to back up this allegation?

This is difficult because when somebody comes in here and is like "Hey I just found out I can afford one of these things, should I?" I feel like as a responsible community, we should bring up their propensity to drain "ye ole wallet". There are enough "dream car becomes a nightmare" threads on here to justify this warning. I agree that when somebody who owns one is telling somebody else who also already owns one that they had better "x,y,z, or else!" it gets a bit tiresome. I think this fatigue comes from a spillover of people giving friendly advice to newbies that is then transferred to people who are not asking for friendly advice.

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sure but you will have to wait till tomorrow when GC tells us his tracked hard car is fine. but that fact will be conveniently hidden by the must-get-bore scope crowd.

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Fair enough.

Remember, RL is a forum where people ask questions and opinions. So we answer questions to provide some help. If it makes sense to whoever asked the question great. If not, great as well. Many ways to skin a cat. Ultimately you will get all of them on Rennlist. But remember, its always your call.

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Not certain the point you are making here.

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he asked for evidence on my statement that these are biased observations of doom/gloom, you said you are getting your car scoped and inspected. I'm wagering you are fine. That won't sell youtube clicks though

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I am wagering the same thing. Good thing I don't have an interest in YouTube clicks. ​​​​​​Not certain I understand your stance. Against bore scopes? Think it's a fear mongering?

Yup.

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How about IMSB and AOS, what's your stance?

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imsb is cheap insurance against a low probability event, but ill admit I bought it. Won't do it again after reading the warranty information post purchase that was off-putting. apparently uAos mitigates a track problem and has a warning light so sure if thats your thing prep your car properly. Wasn't there some sort of imsb guardian on the market as well at one point? Where did that go?

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Houtx, I enjoy the back and forth but it's like you work for the CIA. Have no idea what 996 you own, when you bought it, what service has been done to it, etc.

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Going on my 3rd Guardian MCD sensor ...2 years ago,?.contacted FSI for a replacement and was informed that they had sold the Guardian to another company. When I asked for the contact info I was told that they would contact the new company and check back with me if said company had the part. Refiled some follow up tickets with FSI concerning my request and got no response and so I just chalked it up that the new owner of the Guardian, whoever that was ... wasn't interested,

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The warranty on the IMSb is a bit off-putting when you look at it. It's apparently has a 75K mile service interval, but the warranty is only good for 2 years/24k....kinda odd to me that the warranty doesn't match the service interval by over THREE margins. Let alone the fact that there has to be criteria met (authorized installer, a bunch of oil data, etc) for the warranty to be valid to begin with. And I get it, it's a cover your *** thing in this sue-happy culture, but it seems a bit excessive is all. Doesn't lend much confidence that's it's that much better than say, an SKF bearing of the same dimensions if it has a bunch of conditions attached to it. Or maybe it's a tactic to push people to buying a Solution instead? And I admit, I bought a solution, not because of fear mongering, but in the grand scheme of things, cheap insurance for a small probability event. And if I'm going to replace something where ball bearings fail, it doesn't really make sense to replace it with ANOTHER ball bearing since there's a simple bearing option available...aka, no moving parts. It just seems weird that isn't THE ONLY option if you don't have much faith in the bearing to also give it an unlimited mile warranty, or atleast mileage that matches the warranty...

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Calling it a warranty is disingenuous at best: no DIY, have to send MY part back to them, pre-inspection, that is basically a guaranteed out for a claim. Before anyone says it's to protect them from fraud, I'll remind you that it's illegal for a car manufacturer to void your warranty for DIY work. I've never looked into if that applies to aftermarket parts but it highlights that they believe in this part....kinda, which is where I have an issue. Oh well, lesson learned, good marketing. Rhetorical question: Where predominantly is this new bore scoring info coming from?

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With the exception of the IMSB I do all the work myself and that was just a time value proposition. I've found this car to be the most reliable one I've ever owned. I'm not special and I'm not lucky...it's a good car

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Same here. My 996 has been durable as he'll.

My 4s has been nearly perfect for 3 years and 36,000 miles. Still spent lots of $ on the following: LN IMSB retrofit New clutch/flywheel UAOS Water pump and low temp thermostat New Starter New Injectors New Coil packs 997 GT3 Shifter 9 oil changes and 7 UOA Replaced the front differential 2 window regulators New horn New front lip trim (went turbo look)

The funny thing to me about bore scoring is that I never heard of it until I joined Rennlist 2 years ago. That's not to say that it didnt exist 3 years ago or earlier, but it certainly has become a more frequent issue as our cars age. We have seen enough examples during the pandemic with all the new owners that it is something to pay attention too. Unlike the imsb or aos failing, which is a sudden and definitive failure, bore scoring is a silent, slow and gradual failing. IMSB and AOS failure is easily prevented by replacing them with a higher quality product. But Bore Scoring is tricky, because if you have it, you can't get rid of it, but you can potentially treat it to slow it's growth. And if you don't have it, then you can do a number of things to make sure you don't get it, with more frequent oil changes, better oil, new fuel injectors, better gas, etc. However, the only way you can accurately verify if you have it or not is to do a borescope. Sure, you can listen to your engine, look at your tailpipe for soot, as well as perform an oil analysis, but the scope seems to be the only definitive procedure for certainty. Is performing a bore scope overkill? Maybe or maybe not. If I was going to purchase another 996, I would have one done on the engine. Why take a chance on a 20-35k rebuild. However, If I was a long-standing owner of a 996 that changed their oil 2x a year and the car didn't exhibit any of the signs of bore-scoring, maybe not. But I would certainly begin an oil testing program. Imho, bore scoring is predominantly a byproduct of lousy lubrication from old oil that has lost its lubrication qualities. Add in old fuel injectors, cold winter starts with insufficient oil lubrication, and you have a recipe for scoring. It doesn't help that Porsche's factory recommendation for oil changes is every 15k miles which almost guarantees bad oil, bad lubrication and a recipe for bore scoring. Think about it, if you are looking at purchasing a 996 with 90k miles, there is a pretty good chance that the car only had 6 oil changes in 20-24 years. Which is why service records are so important. If you have the service records and they show that the previous owners changed the oil 2x a year, that's 40-48 oil changes and the likelihood of bore scoring is dramatically reduced. So maybe you can eliminate the need for a bore scope with this scenario. But most 996s on the market come with very few service records. So how do you know?

Adding to the list of possible contributing causes: Letting a car just idle upon cold start to allow it to warm up vs just driving off and maintaining lower rpms until up to operating temp. These cars run intentionally rich upon startup and gasoline is corrosive. I can see this being a serious issue for cars that aren�t driven for months on end, yet started up often over the winter just to warm it up and charge the battery. Combined with poor performing fuel injectors in an aging car, this is a recipe for loss of protective piston coating and the resulting bore scoring.

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Maybe you've mentioned it here before and I missed it, but as one of the few original owners on this board, I'd be curious to know what you've done for oil changes on your car? Did you follow Porsche's 15k recommendation originally? Have you always done twice a year? What oil? It will then be especially interesting to see the results of you bore scoping you have coming up.

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Your timing is perfect. Bores are in excellent shape. No scoring and everything is smooth. They just sent me a boatload of pictures that I have to sort thru and I will eventually post. In answer to your question, I have had over 80 oil changes since 2002 on a car with 57k miles. On average, I was changing the oil every 500-600 miles. The oil changes were the standard 2x of before winter and then in the spring. If I would track the car I would make sure that I changed the oil within a few days of doing the event or if I did a road trip. If there was a lag between my last oil change and event, I would put fresh oil in the car before the event. My logic was to make sure I always had fresh oil and by changing it, I would get rid of any crap floating around that could cause damage. However, the last four years I didn't track my car nor drive it very much and I was trying to get miles on the car to test the oil. So I didn't change the oil much so the numbers are skewed the last 4 years. Going forward, I plan on testing the oil after every track event. Just want to see what is floating around if anything. I am not an engineer, nor pretend to be one. From an uneducated point of reference, I do believe that oil changes are the most critical thing you can do to prevent bore scoring. Maybe the borescope proves that or maybe it was just a lucky exercise. I don't know. My shop has more work to do as they poke and prod the car so if there is anything of interest, I will let you know. So far so good.

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That's great news! Not sure if you mentioned but what oil did you run for regular driving and for track time? *NOT an invitation to start an oil discussion!* Just curious what you did, which clearly led to positive results.

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Thanks Pete. I can't say I put any logic into the oil. I used what my shop (Midwest Eurosport) put in my car. They just work on Porsche's and have a large club racing and DE business, so I went by their recommendation since they know what they are doing. Here is what was used. 2002-2010 Mobil 1 0w40 2011-2013. Castrol Syntech 5w40 2014-Present Miller's 5w40

Glad to hear the good news on the bores! I have to agree with you on the importance of clean and adequate oiling, and would wager you did yourself and your car a great service by not following the Porsche guidance and following a more regular oil change regiment. Definitely keep us updated on any findings although I hope there are none!

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Thanks Man!

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I like to drive my car in reverse for .98349833498 miles out of my neighborhood, solved bore scoring me. These cars cant idle, any others or just the 996? Come on man. GC, rock-solid car, when is your track season?

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I never said they can't idle, I'm saying it's not wise to do it. They run rich upon startup to fire the cats. Try watching some videos from experts about the subject, plenty to learn. You can even find the diagnostic video of my previously bore scored 997.2 4s. You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

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Hout, looks like you enjoy stirring the pot as much as I do. I do have to say that Optionman has it nailed. Ton of procedures outlined by Jake that make sense to think about to help prevent scoring. I will admit that I did in fact start my car from time to time and let it idle in the cold weather over the last 20 years, but haven't done that for two years since I read/heard Jake's comments on it which certainly makes sense. Even changed my fuel injectors today as a just-in-case. But out of curiosity, and to add a little complexity to your challenge, I will attempt to drive backwards for a mile with my Hans devise, harness and helmet on, to see if I can do it using the rear view mirror! I doubt I can. With the Chicago PCA region, track season starts in May. I may be able to get out sooner at a local private track with my Indy depending on weather. But got a lot to do with the car to get it ready before I start tooling around again. Thanks for asking.

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That's a true statement that probably applies more to you than I in this case...these videos you are mentioning I've watched them too. It's observational data from a small, geographically regional shop. It's a hypothesis, not a fact. IMS exploding at some small percentage (fact), bore scoring existing (fact), they build a better/stronger after-market engine (fact). Idling cars eat themselves (not a fact) supported by any evidence or at least any provided other than "trust me", that's an opinion. What I'm saying is not an opinion, show me the evidence without regurgitating baseless claims. At least the changing oil more frequently argument is logical...If I change my oil every day (hyperbole) can I idle my car when cold? This conversation is tiring. Like I said this community is good at scaring people as they accept a single source of infallible truth, and anyone who questions it gets the standard line "you don't know what you are talking about, watch a youtube video".

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I swear by the backward trick I do it with all my cars, the neighbors all think I'm nuts, jokes on them their engines are doomed. I accept most of the things he says as truth/fact, but that does not mean some of it can be wrong. Pointing it out as observational and unproven "data" here and you're called a troll and have your general intelligence called into question... you say something odd I'm gonna question it and non-idling cars is ridiculous to claim. Keep in mind that these videos are content farms trying to generate revenue through clicks and subscriptions, you are inevitably going to say something "stupid". F Chicago to cold !

Yes, Chicago is too fn cold. ​​Maybe it's because I am a long-term owner of a 996 that has no intention of selling it, but I welcome thoughts, procedures, analysis, recommendation, workarounds and solutions. If they are ineffective, the market will eventually come to the same conclusion. Without the discussions we would still be stuck in the early 2000's without the solutions that have been created. But to your point, we all need a healthy dose of cynicism to push successful innovation. But we also need a healthy interest and incentive to push innovation. Innovation pretty much stopped dead with the 996 by 2014. Porsche got thru the RMS issues ultimately with finding a more durable seal. IMSB issues popped up and solutions were developed that were better than OEM. AOS problems led to the adoption of the Porsche Motorsports AOS. Oil Starvation and cooling issues led to the 2QT deep sump. Yadayadayada. But it stopped after that because new models came out and new issues surfaced taking R&D away from the 996. But the 996 is now a hot car, prices are rising and folks are looking for the next evolution of solutions to further address the issues with even more comprehensive solutions. UAOS replaces the Porsche Motorsports AOS. UIDS addresses oil starvation and oil pressure instability once and for all. LN is working on an oil cooling system of which none has ever existed. These three inventions coupled with the IMS solution/retro kits are revolutionary for the durability and longevity of the 996. Not to mention resale values. I'll drive backwards for a mile, watch YouTube videos and read thru and participate on Rennlist if it means even more innovation. Why, because it creates recognition of issues, bogus or not, but more importantly it creates discussion, testing and then adoption. Quite frankly, I hope the manufactures and vendors are in fact making money, because if they weren't, we wouldn't have the next round of solutions. Stay cynical, it will force questions and more comprehensive answers. But don't shut down innovation or we are all finished.

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Houstx996 - Jake Raby does not make a dime from YouTube. Never has. Everything that has been posted to the Rennvision YouTube channel or any other channels (e.g. PCA), he's offered to the Porsche community without any sort of payment for his time and expense.

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Ok fine, do you, or are you at least trying to (the viability of the business model is irrelevant)? Why is there a paid subscription, with flat 6 logos all over it? Who does the sub $ go to? Are you saying he does not receive royalties for this channel using his brand, and the merch sales and time is a donation to some unnamed non-profit? "Renvision is basically our channel here" video one 5 seconds in - JR. You can see how a reasonable person would arrive at the conclusion, that this is marketing as the splash screen is a billboard. None of that really matters much other than it not being transparent because you and whoever should absolutely make money from the content you produce However if you want to act as a definitive source of educational material on a subject you should start paying him and accepting different vendors. You all get sensitive real fast when someone questions this, it's odd. Not idling your car at startup is a hypothesis, are the guys in Phoenix or Dubai, [pick your warm climate], seeing this; is this anything other than an observation, how was it tested?

You dont seem to understand one point in this discussion. The idle vs not idle has nothing to do with ambient temperature. Who cares if its Siberia or Honolulu. BTW what is your area of expertise in life? Just curious.

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Trying to what? Go look at the site again. I just changed the banner for you. It's actually called "Memberships"... not "paid subscriptions". A monthly membership is a new feature from YouTube to allow a better revenue stream to content providers. It's basically 60/40 split with YouTube (i.e. Google). Therefore, if you pay $5 per month, the content provider gets $3 and YouTube gets $2. That simple. Why? Because the cost of professional videography is expensive. For example, 64GB memory card for our pro-level cameras costs $500 each. One of our projects took 21 cards. Do the math. A freelance videographer or DP, will charge about $1500/day plus equipment rental. Again, do the math. Some of our productions take several days to record. Again, they go to cover the production costs associated with producing content for the channel. Videographers, editors, etc have to pay the light bill too! Jake Raby does NOT make a dime from anything associated with the YouTube Rennvision channel nor TeeSpring merch sales. He doesn't receive a dime to participant on other live broadcasts like those from Porsche Club of American. In fact, MotorTrend's Wheeler Dealer used his invention and dedicated a whole segment to the explaining how it was made and its application. They gave him absolutely no royalties for using the invention on a major broadcast television show. Nothing. He never asked for any! There are a lot of people behind the scenes that would never want to be subjected to internet forums, video exposure, or this type of questioning. We respect their privacy. Jake Raby and I started the channel almost 4 years ago and plan to continue it as long as people support it. The channel was NEVER setup as a non-profit and never will. I pay taxes on Google monetization just like every other professional involved. Jake Raby has always cared about education, because years ago an educator changed his life and got him into mechanics. He started the Knowledge Gruppe, LLC and again, with my help started doing Rennvision.

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The premise (at least according to the video) of the hypothesis is that the cold weather cars are more susceptible to bore scoring because owners start them up to warm up the cabin prior to driving off, it could be ambient temp. I don't know how it occurs and neither does anyone else that IS the point. So yeah "Siberia or Honolulu" does matter. You don't even pay attention to your own gospel you just spit words out, I'm done with you. BTW / I'm not playing the " Whataboutism" game with you.

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There are logical mechanical reasons why you don't want to let a M9X based Porsche idle to warm up. Jake Raby has explained it many times on our channel. But if you don't trust him, would you even trust Porsche AG? (see image from the manual)

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Thanks for the lecture on how SaaS models work, membership=subscription is the same thing, it's semantics and a psychological tool. I don't care that you guys make money on this like I said YOU SHOULD it's decent content, You did not answer the only question that mattered about the car which is why we are here and how "you" arrived at the conclusion that you should drive off immediately. I can't believe you changed the banner, what are you 3? temper tantrum.

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Now, you're trying to wind me up. Don't bother. And, that wasn't a lecture; but apparently, you need one. Saying "You don't care what we make" is not being completely truthful either or you wouldn't have played 20 questions. Lastly, you need to SLOOOOOW down sparky. I answered it on another post. If you need more specifics, then I encourage you to watch the entire Bore Scoring series when we addressed the problem of idling these cars. We also have a podcast on Spotify. We've talked about it MANY times.

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Nice try. You're not going to make me your TOOL. Move on.

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you removed a revenue stream on a question...too late I did. I'm telling you to calm down and put it back, make some coin,

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Removing the banner was to validate my statements. I'll change it back in time. The hyperlink is still there, but thank you for the courtesy.

This thread is a:

OK so here is my story. I purchased a 1999 Carrera 4 without a PPI since the seller had about 10 years of receipts for service and it looked like most items were covered. WRONG. When I got the car and started to look it over in more detail I found that a front ball joint was bad - the INDI apparently decided that with a cut bushing it would be OK to just put in some more grease and tie it together with electrical tape. I am also finding a few other items that are bad that easily would be found with a PPI. Since then I never buy a car without me selecting the shop to do the PPI. If you go to the one who has been doing the maintenance I feel that they will, of course, say that it is fine. Buyer beware.

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Looks like Bore Scoring got it.

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Looks like a money pit to me! haha

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Welcome to the 996 club. Sorry about your headaches, but you will love it once it's sorted out.

I have finished the front end and now moving back to the transmission then rear suspension then engine. I love to work on cars so not too upset about the quality to start. I then move on to my 1990 Porsche 928S4. A question, how do I know whether I need to change to flywheel?

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@Houtx996 Any comment on this "gospel"? Better yet, any apology or maybe even a correction?

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Better yet, there should be a naughty corner on Rennlist. Teacher to Houy, "Now Houy, turn around a look at your classmates and tell them you're sorry for being wrong." Houy replies, "No! I'm never wrong!!! I never make mistakes on internet forums. I'm an expert and love to antagonize! I'm the perfect troll... FOREVER!!! Mwahahahahahaha!" [pouts] Teacher replies, "Ok then Houy, go stand in the corner with your back to the class. Think about how you've treated all of your friends. When you're ready to apologize you let me know."

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Because it's written it must be true. Its really bizarre/pathetic how personal you guys take a discussion on a car. I asked about how that channel is funded to see if you can have an objective discussion on its content, that answer is clear.

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Go back and stand in the corner Houy.

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​​​​​​I bet Work_Truck is getting a kick out of how this thread has taken on a path of its own...😊

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Blocked, I'm not here for this you a weak minded fool incapable of having a discussion on an subject that differs from your master. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with cars. I'll leave it at this for someone more mature to discuss it with or explain what I'm missing. the premise is that they see more cars from northern climates with bore scoring and a possible explanation for that is owners leave there cars idling to warm the cabin. And idling on startup is bad or suboptimal. The obvious problem with that statement is the same behavior occurs in warmer climates to cool it (ex: florida,houston,az).so yeah option maybe ambient temperature, blocked also. Real simple how did they arrive at this observation or test it, if so how. Thats an interesting test.

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I'm a weak-minded fool.. seriously? You don't know me from Adam's house cat! For the record, it went off-topic because I was trying add clarity to your YouTube/Jake Raby accusation as well as answer ALL of your questions and point you to more free resources that I've spent 1000 of hrs producing in the last 4 years. And you call me a fool? Please. If you're trying to get under my skin, you're going to have to work harder. My grandmother had more attitude! What you're "missing" is the entitled, antagonistic attitude coming from your posts. It's really none of your business what Jake Raby or myself make, but I tried to be transparent about YouTube and clear about Jake's contribution. I don't really care what you think about me. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a damn either. Now... regarding idling a M9X based Porsche... The problem with idling these cars is closely related to cold start enrichment. Regardless if you're in Texas or Canada, when the engine is first started, it is cold. It may not be sub-zero ambient temps, but the engine is still COLD and for the emissions system to work properly, it will begin a process of "lighting up" the cats by pushing extra fuel into the cylinders along with secondary air, etc. etc.. These process has proven to be bad for the engine if allowed to "warm up" on idle. Raby and Porsche AG both warn against it. There! You happy now? Probably not. Buh bye!!! Instead of blocking me and others, why not do us ALL a favor and block yourself from Rennlist entirely?

work_truck Where did you go and what are you going to do?

work is on BaT cultivating the comments in his auction.

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work_truck needs to join Houy in the naughty corner!

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Just about every aircooled needs a top end reseal or more around 100k miles. Those are $35k+ rebuilds and for a time all of those cars were worth less... The price of the rebuild doesn't change much but the value of the car does... 996s are finally swinging to the point where the rebuild doesn't outweigh the cost of the vehicle.