1999 996 (M96) engine FS 55k

****price reduction 10/5/09 $4,650 if picked up in Denver***** *** Back available 9/24/2009 $5,500*** see last post for details It looks like I've sold my '99 996 and will no longer want to keep a spare early engine around and am offering mine with 55k for sale. The description I've written of how I came to have it is copied below. Pat Moyle is a long-time Porsche mechanic and PCA member in Denver. I would be willing to have the engine inspected at a local shop at a potential buyers expense plus $100 to help cover my mileage/time to load and haul it around. The $100 would be credited towards purchase. I have a standing offer of $6,000 plus actual shipping from a friend of a friend. I suspect this may be about the market value, but since it's hard to place a value on it and I hate to leave money on the table, I'll say this ad has an "asking price" of $8,500 Please feel free to make comments on your opinion of value above $6,000 or make an offer. Thanks, Joe "I bought the motor from a local guy who had it advertised on CL. He had bought a ’99 cab as a non-runner. The previous owner had been told the engine (the one I have now) was no good and needed replacement. He bought a new engine, had it installed and had the exact same issues. Sold the car as a non runner (to the guy I bought the motor from) for something like $12k and included the original motor. The new owner spent a bunch of money at a shop for diagnosis and repair. It turned out to be something like a crank position sensor and something else. His car runs great now and he decided to sell the original motor. Apparently he had about 6 responses to his CL ad in just a few hours. I got there first! He told me it had 55k miles on it. Pat Moyle came with me to look at it. Obviously, we couldn’t run it, but we turned it over manually and Pat thought it was fine and neither of us felt any reason to doubt the veracity of the story."

Call someplace like LA dismantlers and you'll get a better idea of value. or ask here and be lowballed **or another reference http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...A1%7C72%3A1171

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I'll give you $3k for it! Seriously, though. If a new engine is $12k, I'd guess that yours is legitimately worth 1/2 that. Is it worth almost $9k? Probably not. If I was in a position to need an engine, I'd spend the extra $3k for a zero-mile, all-updates, crate engine from Porsche. Just my 2 cents.

Should be closer to $5K IMO Assuming it is a 3.6?

Thanks Van, thanks a lot! The factory replacement is $12k PLUS a usable core. That makes it about $14.5k if you don't have a usable core. I pretty arbitrarily listed $8,500 as I think Rennlist rules say you MUST list an asking price. Obviously, I'm looking for offers above $6k. Using your 1/2 guess from $14,500 would net $7,250. If someone offers that, I think I'd take it. I found three dismantlers online with such engines. One listed with 41k at $7,500 plus core, the other two at $5,500 and $6,500 with no mileage listed. I'm sure anyone looking for a motor has talked to the various dismantlers and knows their prices. I'm fine on using those as a basis and adjusting down from there given the fact that I don't have to carry any overhead or make a living on dismantling cars. (I do however, need to pay for my more expensive new car ) Thanks for your thoughts, Joe

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How much does Jake charge for a full-up 3.4 rebuild??? Reason I ask is that Porsche charges around 12- 14K now so maybe your engine + a Jake rebuild would be a pretty good deal for someone if they could/would swing it.

I had the same thought Marlon. Maybe Jake will chime in here. Does anyone know what he charges to do his magic on a motor that is not damaged in any way?

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what are the leakdown and compression #'s for your engine.. with 55K... I'd say at best your looking is $5K... Suncoast is selling reman 3.4 with 2 year warranty with 0 miles for $11K... how much value can you put on a 2 year warranty..... half price doesn't cut it... that 99 engine is now 10-11 years old... the real value will come with a valid compression test... but not more that $5K..... no way... $5K at best... ain't worth nothin near $8,500... IMHO

Thanks for your opinion Pete, If you read my original post, you can see that I already have an offer of $6k from someone who is very comfortable paying that and knowledgable about these engines. So, I'd say AT WORST, I'm looking at $6k. If you would like to pay a local shop to check the leakdown and compression, look into it with a borescope, or anything else, non-destructive, I'd be happy to deliver the motor to a shop for $100 applicable towards a purchase. If the inspection is unsatisfactory to you, don't buy the motor. Again, if you read my original post, I think it was pretty clear that the $8,500 figure was pretty arbitrary, put there only because Rennlist standard is to include an asking price. I've made it pretty clear that I'm open to legitimate offers. I'd double check your Suncoast price. I believe it has gone up. Also, that price figures a core charge of something like $2,500 and YOU have to ship the core to them at YOUR expense (unless you are local to them in FL, in which case you'll pay sales tax on $11k. If your core isn't rebuildable, add the $2,500 to the cost. Doing a little RL searching found a thread stating that replacement heads were $2,400 each and there were virtually no 1-3 heads available in the US. Looking at it another way, if one were to buy my motor for your stated MAXIMUM value of $5,000 then sell a rebuildable old motor to someone who needed a core for say $1,800 (saving that buyer $5-700 of core charge), one would have a replacement engine for $3,200. That's a LONG way from $11,000+ for a new one. What's the value of a 2 year warranty vs. taking chances on an original motor? I don't know and I don't think any of us could calculate the potential risk since Porsche has obviously never published failure statistics. My guess is is that perhaps 5-10% are prone to catastrophic premature failure and less than that in say a 2 year period during which time a factory replacement motor would be covered under some warranty. That's the long way of saying that AudiOn19s was right. If anyone wants to make an offer over $6k or let anyone know of my motor available for sale, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, Joe

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Hi Joe, that engine with 55K could let go anytime... its old and its one of the first 3.4 engines... although it may seem like a bargain you really have to consider when it will fail and then your back to square one... as for the core charge... somebody with a broken motor already has a core... if the core is no good then yes that's an extra cost... unfortunately... I went down that route last year... I was offered a few 99 motors for $5K and after weighing the risks and labour involved to rein and reout and warranty... I went with a new reman from porsche... and all I can say its a new engine... new parts on it... the 99 motor will need many parts replaced... you have to add a bunch of stuff like water pump, alternator etc...which is additional to the $6K your asking... installing an alternator and water pump and various other things that usually fail on that engine @55K is going to run you another $2K... so for your asking price of $8.5K it works out to $10.5... why not just get a new reman from porsche with 2 year warranty...? or for the same money you can go to Jake Raby and get something built proper... and the end of the day there is lots of risk in buying a used 10 year old motor vs a new one... IMHO the suncoast price of $11K was last november... I really haven't checked as to what their current pricing is... but suncoast had the best pricing... on parts as well... good luck with it.

Hi Pete, No question, my motor, or the motor that's in my car COULD go at any time. Either may also go another 100k+ with no issues. I respect your decision to purchase a new motor. Undoubtedly, that give at least 2 years peace of mind. I'm not sure I understand your statement about water pumps and alternators. Are you saying that they usually fail around 55k and would need replacement on any motor? That would be news to me. The new $12k motor comes with alternator and water pump, or would those also need to be purchased separately? BTW, my motor has both installed and included. Did I not make it clear that $8,500 was arbitrary and I'd entertain offers above $6k? Say someone bought mine for $6,300 and was able to sell/trade their core at the local dealer (for another unlucky customer without a rebuildable core) for $1,800. That would put their net at $4,500 for a motor that can be installed and run right away. A new motor at $12k plus an additional one way shipping (say $200?) is more than 2.5 times the money. If you have the cash, want to keep the car a long time, and have confidence in the factory rebuilds, then I think the new factory motor is a very good option. If not, mine at about 37% of the price is an alternative that will get you back on the road without spending half the value of the car on a replacement motor. Obviously, opinions are like.... something and at least one person agrees that mine is worth at least $6k. If nobody thinks it's worth more, that's fine with me. The whole idea of this thread was to find that out. The potential (and probable, I now think) buyer agreed that placing this ad on RL was reasonable. Thanks for the discussion and good luck wishes. Joe

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the reman has a lot of updates in there.... from what I understand from the porsche tech that installed it is that they are essentially a new motor... perhaps remans of the past had some used parts in there... they did... but today's remans are new stuff... new waterpump, new alternator included... new and improved IMS shaft and a few other components that usually break... maybe this is why the newer motors are more $$$ than before... cause more goes into them... your motor at 55K would need its 60K service as well as a new waterpump... bad waterpump = dead motor... something that needs to be relaced @ 60K to be on the safe side... so there is considerable amount of work that needs to be done on a 55K motor to make sure it all goes in well... your looking at 2K on top of your price to make sure things run well... nobody can tell you what the new motor is worth... but I wouldn't buy a used 99 motor... at least with 2 years warranty I can keep an eye on it... I've put a magnetic drain plug on it and before the warranty is up I will do a leak down test/compression test to determine the health of the motor and go from there... at the end of the day what you want to spend depends on how much you like the car... a used motor is a risk and if you can get $6K for it... that's great for you...

Based on my previous experience with the sales of used engines and cores I'd say this engine is a fair sale at 6,000.00 with the mileage that it has. At 55K the engine needs a waterpump, probably has 1/2 dozen sticky lifters, needs the oil sump examined for possible sealant accumulation in the oil pick up tube and an inspection of the oil control windows.. that said, I bought a 48K mile 3.4 for another stock test engine for my program, for 3,500.00 last week. Today it is installed into the 3rd test car in our fleet while we work with it to finish development of the XR oil system enhancement kit.. It runs perfectly. 6K is fair. No, the engine prices went up when the dollar Vs Euro impacted the costs last year.. Demand has also dropped, because fewer people are repairing the cars due to the economy and more are being sold with blown engines or made into track cars by those who do still have money. As far as whats inside a new engine... Well I have a brand new reman here that failed on the chassis dyno after basically zero miles. I chose NOT to send it back for the warranty, instead I am going to do a thorough evaluation of the reman unit to share on my site as a comparison between what we are offering and what the Porsche reman is like internally. It ran only long enough to get some good dyno data from it for back to back comparison after we "update" it.

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glad to hear it runs well... for $3,500 which is what its worth its a great buy.... can you tell us what the SR oil system enhancement kit is? $6K is only fair if the leakdown and compression #'s are worth something... its also better to have the engine in the car so you can verify the actual mileage... even better plug into the ECU and determine the # of type 1 and type 2 overrevvs... that certainly adds to the picture... the engine I sent back had scored cylinder #6... blown bearings on connecting rods and out of round crankshaft... by the case was ok... oh and the camshafts were scored... the porsche tech told me that porsche would inspect it and put in new block, pistons, lifters, heads and whatever else it needed... the porsche tech also told me that these engines come off the same assembly line as the new ones... as far as we can tell... this engine was brand new... but I'll stop right here... I'm curious.... what type of engine did you test that failed on the dyno? was it a 996 engine... how come it had zero miles on it? if its a brand new reman why didn't the client return it for a free replacement? something doesn't make sense here Jake... the client had a warranty engine that he didn't return for complete replacement this early in its life?

Boxster S 3.2, virtually the same as a 3.4/996 engine internally, despite the bore size change.. People don't understand how similar they are and it's clear that the factory just gave the 911 more displacement and more power because it's their flagship. I bought the engine as part of a big package from a dealer that was going under.. It came with a ton of parts that no one else wanted, a new 6 speed trans and etc.. The 3.2 engine was 100% new in the crate with the warranty.. No exhaust had ever seen the ports, the box was still sealed when it arrived on my loading dock. I had a local Client in Atlanta that had had an intermix failure in his Boxster S and wanted to sell the car, so I gave him a smoking deal on the engine and install since I had no use for it.. I installed the engine, drove it 83 miles round trip to my house for the ECU to adapt and do a tad bit of break in. The next morning we threw it on the chassis dyno and did one run that had a faily respectable group of numbers. The next run in the series was lower, the next was even lower so we stopped to check the engine closer and didn't find any intermix or loss of compression, no signs of issues and no failed sensors. It had a MAF code, but it was cleared and the MAF was cleaned and we thought the dirty MAF was the source of the lower power, so I started another series of pulls, only this time under full data acquisition through my DL-2 from the lab. The first run the power was up, so we figured the MAF was the issue, on the second pull the engine started to slow at 6K RPM, so I backed out of the throttle and it seized. I pulled off the sump to find the oil pick up completely full of crankcase sealant that had "squeezed" from the case halves and cam covers during assembly (I have pics) and this effectively shut off all oil flow to the oil pump, thus killing the engine. I have seen this failure before, from a 60K and 78K mile engine, and after someone used too much sealant on the sump.(ala cheap rebuild) At this point the engine belonged to me/ my company.... The Client had not purchased the engine from me..(had not paid me yet) I ended up eating two days worth of labor to install one of my good used test engines with the IMS retrofit kit installed into the car so the Client could sell the car. I lost 6 days worth of shop time to the fiasco. The used engine made 4HP more than the new engine and 6 lb/ft of torque. I'd much rather pull apart the damn engine and repair it/ upgrade it my way and sell it as a known commodity than deal with the red tape of trying to explain the ordeal to someone at Porsche thats never assembled an M96... I have already lost enough on the engine, I may as well get before and after data from it and document whats inside of it, because people are always asking us.. I have torn down other failed "new" engines, but none of them had the "latest and greatest" updates that are less than 6 months old. So there is the story... Its a really sucky story, but at least I now share something in common with the poor guys that call me that have been driving an M96 powered vehicle when it failed.. Until this happened I'd never experienced a failure first hand :-)

HOLY S*** the amazing thing is this happened in the first 1,000 miles... post pics post pics!! well my engine was installed in June ... so far so good... and your right about the "latest and greatest" updates just being introduced 6 months ago... Jake it seems that taking the oil pan off every 2 years to do an inspection is a prudent move no?

This engine has about 95 miles on it- thats it.. I have an email I received last week from an Enthusiast with questions about the program. His engine that was bought new (3.4) and installed by an Indy shop suffered an intake cam that BROKE IN HALF in less than 100 miles of service after the new engine was installed.. Maybe it would help if the factory actually test ran the engines???? They come with CLEAN exhaust ports .. For quite some time, every vehicle that comes to us for any oil service has the sump pulled and inspected.. The factory sealant is horrible about getting in places that it should never go over time. Of course, that service/ preventive measure isn't part of any Porsche service and no TSB has been released concerning this, to my knowledge... Amazing.

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Wonder what outfit won the competition to rebuild the engines for Porsche. I find it hard to believe that *Porsche* labor and QC would let stuff like this get out the door - maybe one-a-year, but this is amazing. I would almost laugh if it weren't fort the seriousness of their engineering credibility issues. My reman has 1K miles on it and it pulls like a Seabiscuit-racehorse in the final stretch. Maybe I should pull the pan and check the sealant issue

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I found way too much sealant floating around in my engine...and that was the one installed in the car at the factory!

Doug, Most all engines have some of the crap in the pick up tube... When I build an engine I don't use the factory sealant, because I hate it's properties... It's the same part number as the sealant that holds the windshield in place!! I still don't have a favorite sealant, but I will say that i have found the ones NOT to use! I have some that work very well thus far, but all seem to have some compromise. When I assemble an engine I pull the sump after the engine has had the break in oil ran on the dyno for a couple of hours. This gives enough heat and oil circulation to have the stray sealant find it's way to the pick up tube, where I can remove it before the engine sees high RPM or sustained load during evaluation.. No matter what sealants I use (or how sparingly I apply it) there is always something in the tube at inspection. When we drain the oil before the engine is shipped I pull the sump again to ensure no more sealant had accumulated during evaluations that could come back to haunt me later. I had planned on pulling the sump on the new (Porsche) engine after the chassis dyno session just to verify, but I never would have expected so much accumulation in just 83 miles of driving and a few dyno runs... No directive I have found and no Technician I have talked to has told me that pulling this sump is part of a PDI or other new car or new engine inspection. If we know this occurs and take measures to keep our engines from failing, why can't the factory recognize it and take the measures to keep it from occurring?? It only takes 30 minutes to do, even for a on Porsche factory trained dummy like me :-) Oh yeah... The best part is since the sealant is shed from the engines parting lines, so when it enters the oil system it does so BEFORE the oil pump and BEFORE the oil filter... So the filter is of ZERO value to this issue.. But I have a fix.. It defies conventional wisdom and engineering, but the sealant can't cause a problem f it has no where to accumulate

Jake, can you post pics of what the sealant in the tube looks like? I may take my car back to the dealer to have this done as per your recommendation... besides dropping the oil pan do they have to remove the pickup tube to do this or is the pickup tube part of the "sump" assembly...?

The oil sump pan must be removed to gain a visual of the problem area thats located at the pick up tube.. If the Engineers at Porsche were as brilliant as the accountants they would have placed the oil drain plug closer to this location so a visual could be done at every oil change.. In my personal cars I installed a second plug so this area can be viewed at each oil change.. I machined a boss that I easily Tig welded into the factory pan.. Works great.. It may be a viable product for the future and I am thinking about making it standard on our XR oil pans. I am having trouble uploading the pics to the site, if you'd like email me and I'll senmd some to you [email removed]

From Navy'sporsche thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...d-porsche.html "Yeah the prices have gone up then. A 3.4 from Jim Ellis (local) or suncoast is now 16,500." Prices on 3.4 motors have gone up sharply recently, so it sounds to me like you are on track with your pricing. You might want to post this on the Boxster forums as many owners there are interested in 3.4 replacements if/when the time come for a new(er) motor.

Thanks very much Aron. Posting on the Boxster forum right now. Joe

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They had that big oil strainer that you could elect to remove and clean when changing the oil. Ah...now those were the days

Here are some pics on the sealant in the engine... a disaster waiting to happen...

Thanks for posting them, Peter.. I was having a hard time with it.. I have more, I just have to get them off of my camera..

Thanks for posting them, Peter.. I was having a hard time with it.. I have more, I just have to get them off of my camera..

Jake, Very revealing pictures. Glad to say I never saw anything like that when I took my sump off. But now I am worried that I may have made matters worse when reapplying the sump with the Porsche sealant and followed the directions pretty specifically about not overdoing the bead size. Any words of wisdom on how best to put the sump pan back on after we go check the pickup for debris without then actually making things worse?

Some of these issues come from sump and cam cover maintenance when too much sealant, or the wrong sealant is used. One of the sealants recommended is Loctite 5900, this sealant works well, BUT it has a big tendency to either not apply heavily enough, or apply too heavily with a very small "sweet spot" to work with.. The Drei-Bond sealant is similar as well. I have used many other sealants in this area, that I like better, but all have their compromises. People generally think that "more is better" but they don't know that they can be a minister of death to their engine with that mindset.. That said, even Porsche dealerships use too much sealant on occasion.. You'll see a tech article on this topic soon, I just talked to the Editor of a Publication about this and he wants me to give him the input and pictures for an article on how to inspect the pick up tube for obstruction and how to reseal the sump without making the situation worse...

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anytime Jake,,, the 996 community needs to be aware of the work your doing here as well as being aware that porsche didn't do their homework when creating the M96 motor...

Motor is available again, Long story..... My buyer lives out of state and asked that a compression test be done before shipment. I liked that idea a lot as I certainly don't want anyone to have any surprises. We hired Chris Cervelli to come out and do a compression test. Everything was fine except one cylinder that would not hold any compression. Upon further inspection, we found that one exhaust valve was not closing. I then hired a dealer technician to come out on a Saturday with proper tools to take the cam cover off and ascertain the problem. Unfortunately, this took quite a while and during this time, my buyer found what he needed elsewhere. What the technician found was exactly what he had suspected..... a bad lifter. Pretty easy and inexpensive to replace. In any case, the motor has now been inspected and should be good to go with the exception of the lifter. I would share contact info for both technicians for any serious buyer so you could talk to them yourself. Given the need for a new lifter and a bit more labor before installation, my asking price is now $5,500. Further consideration possible if you can pick it up at my house in the Southern suburbs of Denver. It includes wiring harness, AC compressor, alternator, coil packs, etc. Joe

Bump for price reduction. $4,650 if picked up in Denver

Not bad really. I have wanted a 996 for a daily driver but have been scared of the RMS/IMS stuff after reading this very forum...good to know running lumps are 'affordable'.

Relatively cheap insurance, I think. That's why I bought it while I had my 996. Of course, having a spare motor in the garage is a virtual guarantee that the original will never fail. It's a similar concept to my perfect record of carrying rain tires to races for 6 years and never having to use them. Joe

Just a bump. Getting some interest from Canadian Boxster owners, but no sale yet. Joe

How much if delivered to So Cal?

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WOW - looks like the engine's got tape worms!!!

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$4,650 plus actual crating/transportation/shipping cost. I'm willing to deal with the hassle at no additional cost. Thanks, Joe

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Please note that those photos are from Jake Raby. They are NOT of my motor! Joe

Just a bump. Had some interest, but no sale yet. Installation available in Denver for a reasonable cost.

Ummmm

Ummmm? Still available bump Will listen to reasonable offers

Will this 1999 Non e-gas Motor work in a 2000 996 C4 e-gas. I'm assuming the internals are the same with the exception of the IMS bearing maybe being a singe vs double-row. I'd just bolt my Throttle-Body up to this and it would just fire up?

Yes, I believe so. Definitely some more work than just dropping into a '99 cable throttle car, but the motor itself is otherwise identical. Joe