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YOUR RESEARCHX-51 oil pan install
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over and is installed in my car
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I posted a link to the part number but Chad said it was the stock baffle, not the X-51 baffle, so I deleted (removed) the link to the stock baffle.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
This was easy, you will find a couple of spots on the pan that over hangs the block and you can pry and push...pop its off....I used the sealant from suncoast I think increasing the oil volume is a good thing but in that kit u loose the sealing factor that the x-51 gives IMO
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Suggestion · Original poster
As for the aluminum kit that chad did, I think long term will last better ( as long as it wont fall apart or get gummed up and not move) but with that said I saw that 50k miles and the original rubber looked fine, and I do not run at the level that chad will be pushing his car, so will see what the rubber looks like after a season.....I like the rubber do to the fact I think they did this kit as a sealing upgrade over my stock one (not as a volume one), so if you do chads kit fill in the 8 holes, more so if you run turns like Daytona IMHO
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Suggestion · Original poster
Chad, your mod thread is awesome thanks for the info, although the rubber is not a immediate issue if one at all, and I am going to set a video cam up to see the pressure gage.
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Installed into a 2002 C4
So I started the X-51 oil pan install....Thought I would post some side by side pic. as well as others....Thought it might help in some of you thinking on the install/ upgrade
Looking at them, I can not see much benefit the X-51 gives??? Both have the same size baffles and looks like the same rubber for both, I have 50k miles on the car and the new rubber and the old feel the same. Funny thing on the stock the rubber hangs on clips, I took off the rubber and I could put right back on.
So I took a pic. of the pick up tub for the oil, that thing is awesome, It allows oil through the grooves and has a slit 90% around if the bottom gets clogged and the grooves get clogged
So far supper easy install, If I did not pre purchase this part I would not be installing in the car, i just do not see a benefit.
The other thing the pan is the same, has the same # all u really need is the aluminum chunk for 250.
Jerry
Geez, thanks for the info. I was just about to order the x-51 pan to install it during the next oil change. I thought it might provide a little extra peace of mind for the few track days I do...hmmm, think I'll save the $250 and apply it to my PSS9 fund.
the x51 pan looks like it increases the volume of the "baffled area" by ~25%. the side walls butt up against the walls of the case and seals it off with a bead of rubber. i agree, it's not worth 250 but it's worth piece of mind when you use hoosier type tire. is totally useless for street driving but so would a dry sump system
i wish porsche just sold the baffle instead of the whole pan. hmmm... do i see a business opportunity?
Jerry, keep in mind you have a MK II. Your car already has upgraded baffles from the 3.4 (according to Porsche). I'd bet there is a larger difference vs the 3.4.
Ya I just posted up for you all to have some more info...
you make the call
karlooz, I agree with the peice of mind, I dont see 25% increas...but I have to think Porsche did it for a reason, If I was to guess it would
not be
a volume increase but a better seal with the rubber, slow the movement down IMHO
Chad, your mod thread is awesome thanks for the info, although the rubber is not a immediate issue if one at all, and I am going to set a video cam up to see the pressure gage. if it drops I will do another mod to the pan. I have 50K on my last rubber and it looks new, feels new. I will pull the pan at the end of this year and see what it looks like
Thanks
Jerry
oh and hoosier on the way
so this is what i am talking about. i agree, it's a better seal to the case but to slow down the movement of oil a smaller area would be better than a larger area.
so this is what i am talking about. i agree, it's a better seal to the case but to slow down the movement of oil a
smaller area
would be better than a larger area.
That area In red is not 25%,
Look were it hits, It makes a little cubby and the rubber is a better seal than the notches in the plastic that just get close to the block.....
I think Porsche did this so oil would not go with the G force... the plastic had gaps that the oil was forced through, this is a
better
seal not 100%,
Jerry
i said ~25% meaning 25% ish. i didn't even add the volume the the large radii on the plastic version has. the plastic version is also a tad narrower than the x51 and there's also a sliver of an area that i did not include. we're nitpicking here but i think you get my gist... it's more volume and, i am proposing, more oil is better than less.
true the baffle is to create a more controlled oiling situation when cornering. because the x51 tray seals off to the case, there is no opportunity for the oil to bypass the oil pickup area, as it does with the plastic version.
one thing i would consider doing is enlarging the holes so the oil doesn't have to climb over the tall walls. then use a bigger metal door to seal it off.
actually, if i had to do it again, i would just use the plastic version but seal off the area behind it. (just thinking out loud)
Nice thread - love the tip about buying just the windage tray for $30 - a no brainer indeed. Now, am I observing that the increase in volume is fore-aft? Certainly there would be less chance of sustained g-force in this direction compared to side to side. Or am I just confused?
Jeezus guys..like I said already in my mod thread. All of what I have done has been approved by race technicians. So much so, that my modification is being copied for fabrication by J3 Motorsports in Buford, GA.
It has been checked, measured and confirmed 2x. The issue is over and is installed in my car.
Do what you feel like in your own. Track use puts a higher amount of heat, strain and pressure on your car. My philosphy is VERY simple. A properly setup car is ALWAYS the way to go. I always ask questions to those that have the experience to answer properly. Not just a guess.
Do what you will. I will continue in the process I have begun. Next up for me? 3rd radiator with nose slots cut out on the front fascia.
C.
What I will confirm is a modification to the stock baffles. Same thing is done. Removal of the rubber doors, cutting larger access holes, replacing with metal doors and expanding the width portion. My reasoning for going with the X51 was simply due to the metal. With the chemical properties and the heat involved, metal was the better choice for me.
Besides $250 is cheap in the grand scheme of parts for these cars.
C.
Great solution Paul. Good find. If your pan is perfectly fine, bolting the baffles on is a perfect solution.
I still recommend the metal door modifications.
C.
4 large can you give an idea of how difficult it was to remove the pan, did you have to leverage it to brake the gasket / sealant loose, if so any advice to make the job go smoothly. Also, I think B&M make a thicker gasket for the pan and the windage tray to increase volume ...
Wxseed
This was easy, you will find a couple of spots on the pan that over hangs the block and you can pry and push...pop its off....I used the sealant from suncoast I think increasing the oil volume is a good thing but in that kit u loose the sealing factor that the x-51 gives IMO
Note THEY ARE SMALL BOALTS PUT THEM IN 7-10 lbs max
The Tracks that I will see in this car do not have long turns like Daytona, and this Kit will help on slowing the oil from moving out (left or right)
As for the aluminum kit that chad did, I think long term will last better ( as long as it wont fall apart or get gummed up and not move) but with that said I saw that 50k miles and the original rubber looked fine, and I do not run at the level that chad will be pushing his car, so will see what the rubber looks like after a season.....I like the rubber do to the fact I think they did this kit as a sealing upgrade over my stock one (not as a volume one), so if you do chads kit fill in the 8 holes, more so if you run turns like Daytona IMHO
IMHO
The X51 oil pan baffle will likely help a little but the real improvement in the X51 is for oil return from the cylinder bank 4 - 6. The X51 kit modifies that cylinder head and adds a return line and additional suction pump. Under hard cornering oil was remaining in the head for too long and not returning to the oil scavenge pumps. The X51 return line and pump alleviates that problem.
Loren
Do you recommend this for the 02 and newer as well, the extra line...I was going to install and was told that 02 newer heads were better for draining than the earlier???
Jerry
jeezuz chad. what put a burr under your saddle.
i didn't follow your thread regarding your mod. maybe you've already mentioned that you've done dynamic fluid testing just to see if oil escapes your metal door. you might find out that you need a rubber liner behind the door so that there is a positive seal.
just because J3 approves the theory behind the design DOES NOT mean that YOU have executed it properly. just a suggestion.
ya, i'd like to hear the explanation for this too. since the 3.6L heads have been "upgraded" then why was the oiling kit needed for the the 3.6L? seems like the oiling kit should be a 3.4L specific mod. too bad it's not longer being produced/sold by porsche.
karlooz...you sure make a lot of assumptions. Let's look at where my "idea" came from shall we?
Oh wait...hmm...this perhaps?
Wait...maybe this?
Noooo....how about this one?
or maybe a better knowledge base? Here:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=95899&page=1
My information is based upon BMW E36, E46 chassis racing. I adapted this information and knowledge of keeping oil near the pickup from there. This is NOT a new concept people. Our V8 drag racing and road racing friends have been doing this FOR YEARS. The information and knowledge is out there. You just need to find it. And... the information passed to me from techs who have run ALMS, Le Mans, Enduro, Daytona, blah, blah blah....
You guys do what you want. I am tired of the second guessing after a month or more of research into what I can do to help and make my car better.
The sky is blue...say what you want. I give up.
Happy motoring...
C.
ahem... let me be clear. i never said that this was a dumb idea nor am i attacking you but your responses seem to suggest otherwise. all i suggested was some testing might be in order because it's a homebrew DIY. i am just suggesting to test YOUR execution of this design. OK? we cool.
Sure....but you're still making assumptions.
In fact, just got off the phone (literally 2 min ago) and spoke to the lead fabricator /engineer at J3. We are moving forward with the fabrication of the baffles. The entire setup is already in AutoCAD and we are going to replace mine with the 1st welded prototype.
Looks like they are preparing to sell these. Just the baffles. Not pan...you can re-use the one you have. The next step in the development is TIG-welded door tabs and brass hinge pins similar to the above.
Stay tuned...I'll have more info Monday when we meet to discuss the fabrication details.
C.
oh ya, forgot to mention.... if you have an early 3.4L it would be worth it to upgrade to the new oil pan. my old pan had the mounting bolts exposed and the new one has the bolts countersunk in. just a little more protection.
i think chad's got good intentions and it's great that he's sharing with the rennlist brethren.
however, i think he's a wee bit sensitive (i.e. taking it personally) when people cast any sort of doubt that his project with all his serious porsche engineers is a necessary/good thing.
it's not proven. it is home brew. he's teling us of all these engineers he's got on the line with mad porsche motorsport experience... BS. they're just indy mechanics who happen tow ork on porsches and might do a bit of racing on the side.
unless you got a line to stuttgart, let's call it what it is. it's a side project by a hobby racer who is doing stuff to his engine to address an invisible issue. even if it works, how the heck is he going to prove it's working since again there is no problem to resolve in the first place?
The MY02 and newer (3.6 liter engines) already have the additional oil pump and return line... and very late MY 996's likely have the 997/X51 windage tray too.
I still think the major issue was oil retained in the head after hard corning and Porsche fixed that in the 3.6 liter engines.
So would it help - probably some. If you are not running on racing tires I doubt you can get the lateral g's to cause any problems.
Chad It is good to hear that you will be removing all those rivets, and have it TIG-welded...This is what I was going to have done at a friends shop, those hinges are a lot better!
as for the attitude I think that if you look at your first pic of your garage mod and then look at this last pic that you posted.... what a difference in quality....I think people were trying to watch your back and you seem to attack them IMHO
Large...
This is a prototype that was completed for an event this weekend. The pan was modified as suggested by a former Joest Racing lead technician / engineer. Everything I did...including where I got the parts...were his suggestion.
To be sure that everything would be ok, I had the lead fabricator / engineer at J3 Motorsports examine the baffles to confirm that it would be ok. Confirmed to the point that they took their own measurements to fabricate their own. We will be continuing the development on Monday.
My "attack" was not an attack, but a defense. I research this stuff to the nth degree. 99% of my suggestions are based on hard facts that I have gathered over the years through research, learning from pro's and putting the pieces together. FWIW - I am a closet mechanic that has done everything from engine bottom end rebuild to full suspension and adjustment. And...I am an industrial designer of 15 years with mechanical engineering study background.
The wise man asks questions in order to learn. This is what I have done. The remarks of "homebrew DIY" was an assumption to what was done were not needed and therefore needed to be addressed. I did so.
C.
But it is homebrew, fellas. How will this "solution" be proven to work? It's not like Chad's going to be tracking his car on slicks enough times and it's not like you can have tools/time/resources to peer into that engine block on high G turns.
And the sampling is on just ONE car.
It is completely homebrew.
Sure...glad to.
The BK kit includes a spacer for the OE oil pan. It simply lowers than pan. Doing so increases the oil capacity. There is another setup that is a little better that is built by Mantissport Racing. Their setup has not only a spacer, but an extension for the sump pickup.
The X51 is an OE pan that simply has a larger baffle system on it. It allows for a marginal increase in oil near the sump intake over the stock baffles.
Hope that helps.
C.
i'll be tracking with slicks this year in NASA time trials. i have proper data acquisition (it will be sampling oil pressure at 60 Hz so we'll all be able to see if slicks are a no no with the 996. the big question is will the 996 hold up on a high banked oval. i won't be testing on any of those kinds of tracks.
Paul,
I posted a link to the part number but Chad said it was the stock baffle, not the X-51 baffle, so I deleted (removed) the link to the stock baffle.
so a high banked oval... like the one on the california speedway? i remember seeing a doug hayashi video of
www.nsxfiles.com
fame (great guy) running his f355 against some super exotic ferraris .... awesome vid and they were going all out in the high banked oval but for just one turn i believe at WOT.
so cool
Loren,
You mention that late MY996 had the 997 windage tray...the OP had that tray installed in his 02 996...can you confirm that the "stock" tray pictured in the OP didn't come in all 3.6L (thinking maybe this was a reman motor in the 02?)?
Thanks! Great thread!
The BK kit is just a spacer to allow the pan to hold more oil. Personally, I think it's a bad idea. If you look at the pics in this thread you can see that Porsche went to great lengths to manufacture a system that would position the oil pickup right at the base of the pan. With the BK kit you will thow all of that work out the window by moving the base of the pan away from the pickup.
The above is my "opinion". I am not an automotive engineer.
As far as I can tell via dealers and Loren... the new stock baffle with a 997 part # is the same as the x51 baffle pictured. And you can order just the baffle itself at a considerable savings.
I can't say which engines have the new x51 baffles as stock other than the 997s. But what I can say is if you order a new baffle for your 3.4/3.6 996 you will receive the new x51/997 baffle.
I have 3 of these inbound to me for me and 2 friends.
-Paul
I think that picture is of the stock baffle in his 3.6L from 02 C4s and the X51 baffle. I looked at the PET diagram of the 997 baffle, and it looks to be the same as the stock 3.6L baffle in the OP car.
Making the call based on the fact that the X51 baffle doesn't really have walls on the "front and back", just on the sides. If you look at the stock baffle in OP, you can see there is some wall on each of the four sides. The PET shot of the stock 997 baffle has the same walls as the stock part as near as I can tell....but it definitely looks to be different than the X51 unit as far as the "front and back" walls are concerned.
Well I am just 'baffled' now
Sorry just trying to make light of a very interesting discussion that has implications for those of us monitoring this thread that are going to be tracking there car with a stock oil pan.
It is very intresting and I do not think there is one clear winner here IMHO...but I have learned a lot, so thanks
Any replacement tray today should be the 997.107.243.00 tray (unless your dealer is using old stock). It is hard to say what tray is in what car because there was not a TSB for the changeover (that I am aware of). Perhaps it was deemed as "not that important" by Porsche.
As I said in the previous post there was no published cut-in date so it is likely impossible to tell without dropping the pan.
Also, as I said previously this windage tray is not likely to help a 3.4 liter engine much (see my previous post here for why).
Been going through some of the comments here and here are my thoughts on the stock vs x51 oil pan.
I bought the x51 pan a year ago and started to look at the stock and x51 pan closely... what I noticed is that you cant simply look at the two pan by itself and start comparing their design without knowing the area it covers. The x51design is very clever that you must closely look how it marries with the engine casing.
But first the stock pan.
The stock pan uses it own 4 walls to encase the oil close to the pickup (which is right in the middle of the pan). The oil pickup suspends about 1/4 inch above the pan.
The return oil (from both cylinder banks) pours oil back to the left and right side of the baffle walls. This leads to why there are 3 square holes on each side of the baffles, they are meant to overflow the oil into the baffles walls. The rubber baffle is light enough for the oil to open the rubber gate and flow into the baffle wall with only slight weight of the oil. The problem with the stock setup is that the oil can travel from one side of the pan to the other without going through the 3 holes (which fills up the well of the oil pickup)... so with this setup the pan is sectioned only in two parts (the inner well where the oil pickup is located and the left/right side of the pan). The left and right side of the pan are essentially the same space since the oil can travel from one side to the other while cornering cornering. But off course some oil will flow in the 3 square holes, but not all of the oil.
X51 pan
The x51 pan is a huge difference with greater advantages from the stock because the baffle walls are gasketed against the wall of the engine casing... what this does is effectively is it create 3 sections of the pan (the left oil return, the center pick-up and the, the right oil return). Since the gaskets on the baffle plates creates 3 seperate sections, the oil can not travel from one side of the pan to the other without going through the 3 square holes... this is good because this fills up the center section where the oil pickup is located, while oil is entering one side of the baffel, the other side of the baffle flap is closed to retain the oil in the center section... more oil for the motor on cornering.
Another design aspect of the x51 is the normally open gate (the rubber flap). This is different from the normally closed flap on the stock pan. Though the stock flap is relativley light... it still needs some volume of oil to open the flap, while the x51 flap is normally open and oil can freelly go through the sections of the pan while driving on straights.
I debated on the hinge mod... some of my thoughts on it are... why did Porsche designed the x51 pan flap to be normally open? Because this is the best way for oil to fill the oil pick-up section freely., The oil would just overflow into that section. On the other hand the hinge setup needs cornering or the weight of the oil to open the normally closed hinged flap.... in the real world, im thinking this is ok, but im my opinion Porsche got it right with their designing the normally open flap. Maybe the hinge mod should be normally open with a very light spring?...hhhmmmmmm, or just do what porsche did, the rubber flap works great. Though I wont debate that if the car is not driven for years, I can see it dry rotting.
Thoughts on the B&K mod... I also weighed the pros and cons of the kit and Im not loving it at all. Its great that it holds more oil by lowering the pan but from what I remember the kit is not lowering the oil pickup either. What good is it to lower the pan to hold more oil if the oil pickup cant suck the oil up because it now sits higher... plus its still a 2 section pan... the oil can easily go from one side of the pan without going through oil pickup section, again not good. Also in since it sits lower, it has more chance on bottoming out...
So, I put the x51 pan as is and feel that Porsche did a great job designing the integrated "dry sump"... it is no wonder why they kept the design in their current line up. I usually dont do this but, sorry for such a long post.
Redridge,
That was a really good wright up,
I thought it was a sealing issue, but with your wright up I see that with it sealing well you always have 2/3 of oil one side and center so it is also a volume builder as well..
Thanks
Jerry
PS I have the stock pan if somebody wants it let me know....
All stop.. I received 3 of these with the Part # 997.107.243.00 and they are not the metal ones like the x51 version that we want.. They are the black plastic version. Porsche may no longer be making the x51 version at all since the 997 # is the only one you can order. Doubly unlucky for me 2 of the 3 were also broken during shipment. Arggh.
Stay tuned. As soon I find out the correct # if there is one I will post it.
Jasper it is nearly 99 percent identical. I studied it on my desk while looking at the picture and there is one slight difference in a curve. Same outside dimensions which is the major problem as the x51 version holds a lot more volume of oil vs the black plastic version(s).
I am afraid that every parts place I talk to is coming up with the same research that this cannot be purchased on its own and you must get the x51 baffles with a new oil pan (identical to the one you already have).
Well that's not the end of the world is it - the part only costs like $300 doesn't it?
At any rate the aftermarket will be all over this soon enough...oh yeah Chad is on it already.
I was confused for a bit and thought that you were saying the metal x51 parts weren't available at all anymore...phew.
So, if I am to read this correctly, the X51 baffle, (with the metal structure and rubber flap) which was fitted to the 3.6l engines sometime after the 2002 model year (no one really knows when, so the only way to tell is via an inspection) can still be ordered because it is a standard part for 997 engines. This baffle should reduce (or eliminate) the oil starvation issue which can blow engines during prolonged cornering at high g's.
Have I missed anything or is this a good summary? Does anyone think the Mantis Sport sump extension is a preferable solution to fitting an X51 baffle?
Also, I have read that the 3.6l engines had a dual-chamber suction pump, and separate routing of the oil return lines and an oil scavenge pump in the heads. This was part of the X51 spec. Can anyone confirm that these extra bits are standard on the 3.6l engine as compared to the 3.4l?
What I am wanting to do is ensure my 2002 3.6l 911 will be OK on the track - I am planning on updating the sump baffle but was wondering of the oil return lines and oil scavenge pump in the heads is already part of the 3.6l engine spec.
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