Engine Replacement IV

Well here we go again. Like one of the posters on the previous thread, I am here because I value opinions (good and bad) and because I think it is important to air grievances in a forum where you can gain from a wide variety of experiences. Now - to the meat of this thread. Yesterday I picked up the reman. engine for $4200 + $1000 core because my sleeve is cracked. Add to that $1200 for R & R (because it is a C4) and so far I am in to this for $6400.00, plus tax. Car should be done today or Monday because the mechanic needs the lift space. In my letter to Porsche last Friday, I included pics of my engine's cracked sleeve, and the Post that Bob put together about the 84 non-RMS engine failures (thanks Bob). Now, let's say, HYPOTHETICALLY of course , that you were in my position and received an overnight letter from PCNA with a HYPOTHETICAL good-will offer of $2000 cash for your trouble HYPOTHETICALLY "based on the service history of my C4 Cab." Would you accept a HYPOTHETICAL offer like this because it is better than nothing, or do you think they realize I am right and are trying to initially buy me off cheap? Push for more or take the HYPOTHETICAL $$? Thanks.

talk to the lawyer.

Depends whether or not this hypothetical offer was contingent upon waiving my rights to any future action.

At that point, I would talk to a lawyer (make sure it is one you know and trust). S/He will need copies of the warranty, the purchase agreement, and what not. At that point, he can tell you what recourse is available to you OR if you should just pocket the hypothetical offer form Porsche and consider yourself happy.

Take the money and get on with your life.

I thought you got the core credit waived (stated in your last thread). For the price you paid I would have gone with the $7900 engine you already mentioned that would be warrantied. Not sure I follow your logic on this one unless you are looking for the cheapest way out and then unload the car. Had you purchased the Porsche one you would have had a 2 year warranty. If you kept it or not that would be worth the price of admission....piece of mind for you and a new engine -or- get a larger amount in private sale since you have the ability to sell with a NEW engine with 2 yr warranty. You are taking a HUGE risk by buying that used one. I sure hope this doesn't turn into another Bob story down the road for you by going the cheap route. As for the letter to PCNA, you probably hurt your case by including Bob's anecdotal evidence.

Take one more pass at getting a bit more money yourself. Then take what you can get. You could quickly burn through in legal fees the incremental amounts an attorney "might" get you.

i read it one more time and i don't get it. so the engine is reman by porsche. and an indy put it? so u still have warranty from porsche? why not just ask p-dealer to put that reman. engine in? maybe i don't get your solution?

take the money and run.

The remanufactured engine is not by Porsche correct? So no warranty again. I think that was some good will by Porsche to offer you 2k on an out of warranty engine failure. If you want to go the lawsuit route just make sure your going in aware of the costs. As an attorney I would not take your case on a contingent fee basis nor do I believe any other attorney would. The cost for the hours to be put in to this possible case would probably eat up any potential award you may get at the end. Take the generous good will offer and be done with it.

The motor is not a Porsche reman., but does come with a 90 day warranty. Since my plan was to sell the car all along, I am going to stick to that. I guess $2K is better than nothing (hpyothetically), but I don't like the (hypothetical) confidentiallity agreement. I just would not be able to discuss any settlement. I think I will take the money and run. Chock it up to experience. At least they made a good faith effort for a 2nd owner who has owned 3 P-cars. That is what I was looking for I think. Still undecided if I will buy again. Thanks for all your advice.

90 day warranty from whom??? From the guy that sold it to you? Good luck getting your cash back from them if it fails inside 90 days. Still think you made the wrong choice but hey it's not my choice to make anyway. Hope everything works out the best for you. Don't let this experience ruin your love for the marque. There are just a few bad ones in every bunch and it looks like you got one of them. The odds of it happening to you again would be slim to none........unless of course you take the route Bob did.

Take the money and run. It's unfortunate that the motor swap is already under way, because with the hypothetical $2000 you could have had a factory motor with a warranty installed for almost what you're paying now.

looks like u have made your mind. good luck!

1) Take the money 2) Sell the car 3) Buy somthing else 4) Move on with your life

Hey, where's Bob's comment?

Oh, he'll be along any moment now............

5) Post the vin so if I come across it, i'll know to run screaming in the other direction.

6. Re-badge it with a "blue oval" (Ford).

Thats my next question - IF I try to sell it private party, do I advertise "rebuilt engine with warranty" or just trade it in and be done so no one can come back to me?

believe me, when you shop around for trade-in, assuming you don't buy another car, the number dealers give you will make you keep your car. and if you private sale, better be honest.

Sounds like hush money-hypothetically speaking of course

What warranty??? You mean that "90 day" warranty you were offered. That's not a warranty, that's a gamble.

Yikes.....I don't like where this is going to end up....

You just showed your cards.......... The Attorneys at Porsche are reading this thread.

Have to agree with Chris on this one. NEVER post like you did. Anyone who thinks that PCNA and/or PAG doesn't troll this board is dellusional.

I conjecture you're not gonna get a better offer from Porsche. If you do not accept and ask for more, they have a right to rescind the initial offer.

in terms of my response, i'm glad that my posting potentially contributed to you getting financially compensated... that 84 engine post was simply what it was.. use it for what you want.. research in buying a porsche and deciding on what year has the most issues, debating on a cpo or not, etc.. apparently you found a great use for it yourself now porsche making you sign a confidentiality agreement to "shut up" is a bit upsetting, as it shows they have some skeletons in the closet, that they do know about, and don't want to risk a lawsuit/having the cat get out of the bag, this info being sent to magazines, etc.. in terms of porsche rescending their offer from this post, (hypothetically) if it were true, I doubt that, because it would show porsche is "admitting" to reading these boards.. and legally that puts them in some hot water from conciously knowing about serious potential problems by reading and acknowleging posts being made as fact and not acting on them... which could open up pandoras box in a lawsuit with discovery/deposition of the individual(s) that read this forum involved.. either way, glad i could help joe.. good luck with everything...

I spoke to my attorney today and faxed over a letter to him with the hypothetical offer. He called the Customer Care rep and she basically said that is all there is - no more. I wish I was as rich as Bob and could fight over the principal. However, since I was planning on selling the car anyway, the $2000 could make a difference in recouping some of my costs. I have a feeling this car will never have a problem again. I am not the luckiest when it comes to cars - in a year and a half my 996 was hit twice and had the engine failure. Meanwhile my wife's car suffered 2 flat tires. I once had a car keyed while sitting nicely between its parking space in valet, got a flat by hitting a pothole, etc etc etc. It is really hard having a nice car these days cuz people do not give a damn about OPP. Anyway, I have to think this over. 1/2 of me says they know they have a problem and are trying to keep me quiet - forbidding me to discuss any hypothetical settlement offer would not proclude me from making noise to help others who have the same problem. The other 1/2 says the $2K would be a nice addition to my daughters' college fund.

from a fellow neighbor in Huntington Beach and previously in Seal Beach; like others have said before - take the money and run!

I'm no attorney but haven't you just violated that very agreement you signed (hypothetically)???

I agree with Dell, just because you add a tongue-in-cheek "hypothetically" doesn't really change the fact you just blabbed to the group of people Porsche SPECIFICALLY doesnt want to know...

From Joe's initial post, I didn't see anything that led me to believe that it was confidential. Frankly, I'd be pretty pleased that they even came back with a figure at all. I still think that if you feel you have been wrong, that you have legal recourse, and indeed have the money to back it, that you should go the legal route. At the very least, perhaps a formal lawyer's letter will get you the full amount for the engine replacement. Of course, it could very well **** them off too.

He's not bound by the terms of the agreement until he accepts and signs it. Although, I do think it is bad ethics to be discussing it with others if you plan to accept the terms.

In my letter to Porsche last Friday, I included pics of my engine's cracked sleeve, and the Post that Bob put together about the 84 non-RMS engine failures (thanks Bob). Initially, I thought that the 996 engine rebuild was blown way out of proportion. Now I have to admit that I'm having second thoughts. I live in MD and there are three Porsche Dealers relatively near to me. Over the last 15 months I've visited all of the Dealerships to check out 996s that appealed to me that were advertised on their web sites. Of the seven cars that I checked out during that time frame, three of them had rebuilt engines. Now in the last month I contacted two guys who were selling their cars privately and both cars had rebuilt engines. My latest contact was with a poster on this forum, and based on his description he has a great car for sale but it does have a rebuilt engine. Granted that my sample size is infinitesmial and I'm not going to do any extrapolations, but it does seem that there is a significant number of rebuilds in my area. Interestingly enough, the sales guys proudly volunteer the rebuild status of the Porsche engine as a selling point. The typical line goes something like even though the car had 28K miles on the odometer, the "new engine" only has 5K miles.

That is very interesting. Sad and interesting. I am still unable to find out if my car ever had an exchange prior to this failure. The dealership that serviced the car in Chicago is unwilling to tell me, and PCNA, if they found out, has not told me either. I may try and lean on them again - this engine could still be under warranty for all I know and they are trying to keep it quiet.

Take the money. Trust me, not only are they reading these posts, but they're only trying to be helpful. It's not a conspiracy. I'm sure there have been many engine failures, but holes don't end up in blocks from JDA (just driving along) or idling in the driveway... etc. etc. I hear it all the time, it gets ridiculous after awhile. The reality is you don't know how the car was treated before you purchased it... these are sports cars without much torque. Most performance orientated drivers will be reving the engine alot, especially in the twisties where P cars shine. Also, the car is out of warranty. Plain and simple. The warranty doesn't say, "as long as you don't drive it hard, it will be covered for an extra 20,000 miles or as long as you drive less that x miles, the warranty will be good for an extra 3 years". Until all these "blown" engines are taken apart and scrutinized by an unbiased trained professional AND you could prove that Porsche ignored a problem that they were aware of, you wouldn't have 2 legs to stand on in a court of law.

I doubt it. Cash the check and quit bickering.

seems to me that there are too many blown engines o fthe 996 variety while they are sports cars if the same thing keeps happening like clock work over and over and over etc. there is some wrong for instance the 1986-87 maxima started catching fire i know of several people who's cars caught on fire one of which was mine years later ther's a recall many people have since bought other cars wrote their letters made their complaints and moved on however misssing the recall and those fire caught cars are in the junk yard. i say talk to an att. some one needs to compile a list of the blown engines it will take some doing but it can be done let's face it may of us are flippant because our cars are ok but what if it were you or i wouldn't we want some justice or atleast some closure it a defect or no don't we all 996ers deserve to know my $0.02 i've been there and it's not a good feeling even with a car worth 15 to 20k imagine one worth 40 or 50k

2fas4u.....did you even read the entire thread (as well as parts 1-3)??? It is the very statements you (and others) make about "blown engines....happening like clock work over and over and over etc" that have no basis for support. Hack into the PCNA computers, compile the entire list of blown engines versus the number of 996's sold and you will find out very quickly that the number is EXTREMELY small. As has been highlighted ad nauseum, two points you failed to read (or just glossed over)....(1)this "problem" is happening to individuals for the most part that are buying used (multiple overs before them) and can't verify the treatment of it a priori. (2) asking for warranty work WELL beyond the period is not someting that auto manufacturers will never agree to since they are in the business to make money and not guarantee you car for as long as you deem is should.

Also, the car is out of warranty. Plain and simple. The warranty doesn't say, "as long as you don't drive it hard, it will be covered for an extra 20,000 miles or as long as you drive less that x miles, the warranty will be good for an extra 3 years". I'll need the help of the lawyers on this Board, but there's also an implied warranty. If you took the case to court and could prove that the blown engine was cause by a manufacturing defect, then I would imagine that Porsche would still be culpable even though the warranty expired. Granted that it may be problematical to prove that there is a design defect and that defect caused the engine to fail, but I also would imagine that Porsche would do everything in their power to settle the case before it went to court. The last thing Porsche would want is to have a 60 minutes crew interviewing Porsche owners whose engines blew or had multiple RMS leaks.

Doesn't the warranty state something to the effect that "the car is warranted for 4yr/50K miles and Porsche will repair any problems that are the result of DEFECT, etc. within that period"??? Wouldn't you think the problem would come to the forefront in that reasonable amount of time?

Doesn't the warranty state something to the effect that "the car is warranted for 4yr/50K miles and Porsche will repair any problems that are the result of DEFECT, etc. within that period"??? If driven for 50K miles, I would expect that problems due to design defects would occur, but how many Porsches reach 50K miles after four years? Mid 20s would be the average for most four year old 996s that I've encountered.

Then maybe therin lies the problem. I have 60K on mine and it just turned 6 years old 3 weeks ago. These are no Ferarri's relegated to garage duty, they are Porsche's. Now go drive the damn thing!

I personally know of one...

LV.. i wouldn't say that to be the case.. I took a few quotes from my previous post.. all of 996s with under 20,000 miles.. now i doubt any of these individuals bought their car used at under 20,000 miles.. care to rephrase your statement? another thing i'm noticing.. is that porsche appears NOT to be marking in the computers when they are replacing an engine? they mark it in the computer when the car gets an oil change, but not when the entire engine needs replacement.. mine sure doesn't show up in the computer either, even though i had my entire engine replaced by them at the dealership.. (the third one) i'm not one for conspiracy theories.. so each can come to their own conclusions about this one.. From: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/247847-eighty-four-84-996-engine-replacements-due-to-non-rms-related-issues.html "I recently had the engine blow on my 2002 Carerra with 4100 miles (Tip). I have now heard of two other people who had the same problem, one at 2100 miles and one at 3500. Seems to be a pattern. Porsche wants to replace the engine and I want a new car. The guy who had his blow at 2100 miles got a new car. Has anyone else had this problem or know of anyone who did. Please e-mail." - Bob Scott "my C4S's motor was replaced at 13k." - mooty "The engine on my 2002 C2 Cab bit the dust at 10,000 miles... The crankshaft pulley guide pin broke off. At first PCNA was going to replace it with a re-built engine, but the dealer from whom I had bought it used (Paramount Porsche) got involved and helped PCNA see the light... Kinda looks bad when a $105k sticker car takes a dump at 10,000 miles. They replaced it with a new engine (not re-built)." - cydog "My 11,000 mile 03 C4S is a semi-daily driver and just had a complete engine replaced under warranty (mostly). The intermediate shaft bearing failed. Previously it had an RMS replaced. It's a fabulous car to drive but when the warranty expires I don't want to own it. In my view if you really want to enjoy a P car, then lease a new one for only as long as the warranty period. Then lease another one. You'll get a great night's sleep. TW" - tedwentz "Engine replaced at 8k miles! At one point in time, Porsche was replacing engines at a rate of ~200 per month. Not sure about todays rate, but it scares me." - chris walrod "13,500 miles. Intermediate shaft let loose. Engine replaced with new. Car used more for trips and enthusiastic driving than around town." - threeOh "My buddy had his 996 engine swapped at 6K miles" - Kevin Deal "have a 99' 996 convertible with 17K miles. My coolent light started blinking. I bring it to the dealer (still under warranty) and he tells me it needs a new engine." - chad "The engine on my 03 C2 was replaced 2 weeks ago (19K on original engine)." - sqlb "Dealer was very nice to tell me that car had engine replaced at 15K miles." - c2blk "So, I take my '01 996 w/4,000 miles on it, out of storage earlier this year and find that it's leaking oil. I take it in to Porsche and find that the head & valve cover gaskets are RAINING oil. My Porsche dealers' response - "This is normal"! Maybe normal for a yugo -we're talking about an $80,000+ sports car. They replaced everything and its fine now, but alittle bothersome. Has anyone else experienced this?" - Brian "My 01 C4Cab. with 9,600 miles suddenly blew so much white smoke today that it clouded the entire street & the tranny started skipping. I had to had it towed as a cop patrol was around & stopped me. As it's a long weekend in Canada I couldn't get it to the dealer until Tues. Do you folks have any experience with this & know what may have caused it? There're no warning lights signalling any problems prior to this happening. Would appreciate any input." - dtsp "I have a chance to buy a 2002 C2 coupe for a very good price. Only catch is that the engine was replaced at about 10K miles." - scott10s "My well-priced '99 came with a fresh motor from Porsche and it detonated again (the seals) in just 15,000 miles. Porsche split the difference on the third engine. I had a few other things taken care of (top mechanism, warped rotor, clutch shudder) when they did the third engine swap so the bill was about $12k after they split the new engine cost with me." - 996Cabby "My '02 996 was first registered in January of '02. First owner put about 14K miles on it through the summer of '03. I took delivery of the car in July of '03. Drove it for two days and the engine died. They flatbedded it to the nearest dealer where they started dismantling the engine to see what was wrong. Seems that the culprit was the cam actuators. Malfunction severly threw the timing of the engine off. decided to replace the engine with a re-conditioned one." - Nova87

^ Wow. Big news there.. you mean that there are some engines that have gone bad? Is this supposed to be surprising or something? Is there ANY car manufacturer whose engines DON'T blow up on occasion- even when brand new? It happens to every car, and in some cases is simple bad luck, but I suspect in many cases the owner had something to do with it. I'm sure all those whose engine went bad will say they treated the car well, and did nothing at all to contribute to the engine blowing.. but somehow I doubt that. I mean, whose gonna admit that they were driving like idiots and/or treated the engine bad right from the get-go? I'm not saying that EVERYONE caused their engine's demise, I'm saying it is only logical that some people don't have much common sense and so that could be a major contributor. Now, adding on to this theory, we must ask ourselves if those people who have blown up 2 or 3 engines in a row are likely to exhibit the driving tendencies/idiocy to contribute to the death of said engines.

eltorrente, most porsche owners are older car enthusiasts that know damn well how to take care of a car.. most people don't buy $100k sports cars simply to treat them like crap... keep in mind, only maybe 1 out of 1000 996 p-car owners actually visits internet forums.. so these posts are from simply an extremely small fraction of 996 owners.. what other car can you name that has this many early failures other than the 996 and the early m3 which bmw "paid for in full" and acknowledged.. being an sn SL owner, i've been on the SL board, looked through the threads.. not 1 case of an engine having to be replaced in 4 years of the vehicle being out.. owner of a 7 series, so i visit the bmw 7 series board.. not a single case of an engine needing to be replaced before 100,000 miles.. why would, should the rules be different for porsche? those are $100k cars as well, if anything bought by individuals that are ALOT less car adept at maintaining a car than porsche owners.. porsche owners are probably the most enthuastic car owners in the world.. to simply dismiss engines failing at 2,000, 4,000, 5,000 miles (8,000 miles in my situation) as "driver fault" is ridiculous.. otherwise the hundreds of cars and trucks out there from various manufacturers would have the exact same low mile engine failures.. do they? nope.. --- i suppose the expert drivers at european driver can't drive either? which explains why "both" of their 996s had their engines "blow" with only a few 1,000 miles on the odometer? i guess nobody can drive their 996.. even the professionals.. <g> of course it's nice to see that the porsche dealerships are clueless about all the engine failures, and are so aware of the engine failures that they keep a bunch of them lying around so they can pop em in for each person shelling out $13,000... without having to wait 2-3 days to order them from the warehouses.. <g> http://www.europeancarweb.com/longte...ec_porsche911/ Yet again, we lost an engine in a long-term 911. Abuse, you say? Not a chance. Editor Brown has spent most time in the car and has babied it to the point of nausea, and he cautions everyone else who drives it "not to screw it up!" What's the deal, then? Is there a common motor malady. Like our previous 996, this one performed flawlessly, right up until it suffered a catastrophic failure within the engine. The crew at McKenna Porsche, where we've had many of our long-termers serviced or fixed, was equally mystified. "We don't know what's going on with the internals," said another Porsche dealer's service manager. "They told us not to open the engine, just replace the entire thing. We've got a bunch of new crate motors on hand to deal with this problem." While this is a warranty fix, it won't be 5 years from now, and at 20k a pop, 3.6-liter Porsche engines aren't cheap.

^ Wow. Big news there.. you mean that there are some engines that have gone bad? Is this supposed to be surprising or something? Is there ANY car manufacturer whose engines DON'T blow up on occasion- even when brand new? Actually I can think of only one other manufacturer in recent history whose engines were blowing on a regular basis when they had few miles on the odometer, and that was BMW. I can speak to that from personal experience since I owned one of the first ones that blew, an early model '02 M3. The SA at the local Dealership initially suggested that I abused the engine, but after the BMW Rep checked it out, he agreed to replace the engine with a new and not a rebuilt engine. In addition my warranty was extended to 6 yrs/100K miles. Shortly thereafter BMW recalled all of the M3s that were built within a specific time frame and rebuilt the engines. Does anyone see a pattern? Could it be that the Germans are extracting too much power out of their small blocks? I don't want to get into another Vette/Porsche battle, but the big block Vette engines seem to hold up well. Nevertheless my preferance is still with Porsche, but I'm certainly going to be ultra cautious when I buy a used 996 or even 997.

And you know that they took care of the engines Bob? How do you know? Were you there? Whats your answer to that genius?

Got to agree with Bob on this one. Just bought an 02 c4s with 13,000 miles on it. Had the car inspected and certified by the dealership. A month or so goes by and the check oil light comes on when I'm filling it up.hmm? brought it to the dealership and they just topped it off and said these things happen.hmm? (1st porsche didn't know better). another month or so goes by and the same thing happens this time they top it off with 3 quarts of oil.HMMMM? Said to bring it back and they would take a look. Brought it back and they said they found the problem and replaced something (I forget what they said that time). Great. Car back and all fixed. NOT. Same problem 2 weeks later. Pissed off. Went back to same dealership and they said they would run more tests. First set of tests came back and everything they said was fine. Told them to keep checking cause this is not normal. Called the sales manger this time to let him know how disappointed I was in the car they sold me and that it wasn't the same car I was sold.(having found out the previous owner had put on a larger oil pan on it and stuff.I'm now beginning to think it was them who installed it so that the problem I'm having wouldn't appear for a couple of months. More oil in the pan=longer I drive it before the light comes on.) When I bought it from them I even asked about all the options and this was coveniently left out.hmmm? Even told them I didn't want to buy a car that was upgraded with after-market options. "No problem this one is perfect. Had it inspected and no problems. Its mint.This is the car for you. Its exactly what your looking for." Right. After further checking the car they called and said they needed to just replace the WHOLE ENGINE. Called the manager again and said I just wanted my money back. They said the best they could do was to give me "fair market value on what my car would be worth today." Didn't even bother to ask what he thought that would be. Now talking with a lawyer and will NEVER GO BACK TO NEWPORT AUTO AGAIN. Very disappointed with them. They even gave me a ford tauras as a loaner. REAL NICE. My new porsche sits there and they give me a ford?? I wonder what they give the boxster guys. (No offense. Just a smaller price point) Even when I take my jeep in for service I get a better car. Whats even worse is that the service manger didn't even have a record or just didn't know about my car being in their shop 2 weeks earlier? (which Bob pointed out to some affect)They must of left that part out of the computer or else he would of known about it??? So that it only showed this being a recent problem not one from the begining. Sorry for the ramble. Just want you to see where I'm coming from on this. Any suggestions on how to handle this now? From what I've read there will be. Have the car back now with a new engine and it seems the clutch is a lot softer now??? Someone else mentioned "turning" at Newport Auto in another thread which I'm thinking happened to me??

What's the problem here? Clearly, your car already had some problems a la the new oil pan. Who knows what the hell originally happened? Remember, you can't possibly know if you aren't the original owner. And PCNA is responsible for this how? It sounds like you have more of an issue with the dealer. Now mind you, the car is CPO, and you got a new engine out of the deal. That's the beauty of CPO. Most problems WILL show up in the first couple months of ownership, to say nothing of the first couple years.

The problem with the M3 engines was related soley to the connecting rod bearings, and not a design issue that appears to be the problem with the 996, and to a lesser extent, the 997 engines. The M3 connecting rod bearings were not manufactured to BMW specs by the supplier. That did cause some engine failures and a service campaign to replace connecting rod bearings on most 2001, 2002 and 2003 M3s. Some of the cars had oil pumps replaced also. The vast majority of the con rod failures occured for cars produced in a three or four month production range, that I think was from around October 2001 through February 2002. There were very few failures outside of that range. However, the cars did NOT have their engines "rebuilt" as mentioned in an earlier post. Cars with engine failures did get new, or remanufactured engines. The other cars involved had connecting rod bearings replaced, which is far short of an engine rebuild. The problem with the M3 engines seems to have been completely resolved as evidenced by no more problems with the 2004, 2005, or 2006 cars.

The dealer said after I learned of the larger oil pan and said that it was "a good thing. It helped run the engine cooler and when the car went around sharp turns helped with making sure the engine got enought oil. Something about baffle. (I'm no mechanic). I wasn't aware of porsche offering a bigger oil pan as an option? If the car has had after market work done to it and it wasn't done by porsche then how can they CPO it? I can add a super-charger and the warranty will still be valid? Where's the line on what you can or can't do in order for a car to keep its warranty? Is it written any place? You would think since porsche can't confirm how the work was done then they couldn't certify the car because of the after-market work done on it? The guy could of left a wrench in there or something. No car for the price of a porsche should have to have an engine replaced. The m3 had a problem and they fixed it. Porsche? RMS from what I've read has been an issue for years now and still is. Why haven't they been able to fix that yet? It didn't take bmw that long to "sack up" and admitt they had a problem and fix them all. Has porsche ever recalled the RMS on their cars? Didn't think so. Bullet-Proof my A**. Must say though that the first month of owning it I had a smile from ear to ear every time I drove it, but would think twice about buying a new one if this is what you end up getting. I'd rather buy a bmw that at least will admitt and fix any problems with their cars, not just pass it on. (even though my last m3 had no problems what so ever). The dealerships are the reps of PCNA and should be held to the same standards as them. So a dealership problem should be a PCNA problem because they are one of the same.If a dealership is screwing up their rep then they(PCNA) should do everything in their power to make it right? I know if one of my employees were making false statements and customers were mad I would fix it or fire them. The dealerships are just like an employee to PCNA. They do what PCNA says or else they don't get or sell anymore cars. Joe-my car came chicago also. maybe there is something going on in that city? and then they just ship them out to cali where the car is sold as perfect, no prior problems.

Hey 4s....try hitting a retunr key every now and then. And FYI...your statement of "No car for the price of a porsche should have to have an engine replaced." is absolutely ignorant. So, as cost of cost increases, reliability should as well? If that is the case, then the Honda's should be in the 100K range for a starting price. Take you bitterness elsewhere. Your argument is an irrational one.

LV I was about to post about paragraphs too...annoying as hell to read

Exactly. How do you think those Ferrari guys feel? The only mechanical issue either of my 996's has had was the alternator on the 2001 died after I had the car for about 6 months, it was replaced, and that was it. I really do think the number of 996's sold versus catastrophic engine failures are pretty low, and on par with other high end car manufacturer's. jmtc, Rob

When is "Engine Replacement V" thread going to start. This one is like watching Titanic for the 50th time.

Using the return key would make my last post longer than a page. But if its easier for you to read,then I will. Sorry for the "rookie" forum post. Just had a lot to say. And yes I think with a cost increase reliablity should also. You don't think the research team at porsche has figured out they have had a problem with the RMS issue? Why haven't they fixed it then? Where does the money go? Lining someones pockets I guess. I mean how complicated is a rubber seal? They still can't get it right. I haven't seen any hondas with all the options of a porsche yet. But if I did I bet the cost would be close to a porsche. And yes your right it would be probably much more reliable. No bitterness, just didn't get what I expected. Maybe honda should come out with a $90,000 sport car to compete with porsche? I bet they're wouldn't be as many engines that needed to be replaced with such low mileage as I've seen on this board. Just my non-mechanic new porsche owner .02

They do, it's the NSX.

Honda did, the NSX :> i've never ever heard of a single engine failure from an NSX.. reliable as hell.. i'm still waiting for these "bulletproof" 996 enthusiasts to reply to this on why "BOTH" of the european car 996s had their engines blow up on them.. if anything, you would think professional drivers would know how to maintain a car, wouldn't you? And not just one engine blew on their 996, but BOTH of them blew on BOTH of their cars.. LVDell, nyce, munro? speechless? http://www.europeancarweb.com/longt...9ec_porsche911/ Yet again, we lost an engine in a long-term 911. Abuse, you say? Not a chance. Editor Brown has spent most time in the car and has babied it to the point of nausea, and he cautions everyone else who drives it "not to screw it up!" What's the deal, then? Is there a common motor malady. Like our previous 996, this one performed flawlessly, right up until it suffered a catastrophic failure within the engine. The crew at McKenna Porsche, where we've had many of our long-termers serviced or fixed, was equally mystified. "We don't know what's going on with the internals," said another Porsche dealer's service manager. "They told us not to open the engine, just replace the entire thing. We've got a bunch of new crate motors on hand to deal with this problem." While this is a warranty fix, it won't be 5 years from now, and at 20k a pop, 3.6-liter Porsche engines aren't cheap.

They did make one you mean. They don't make the NSX anymore, but I bet they will again esp if they read this forum. And I bet the engines didn't need to be replaced as much. Riad don't think I'm ignorant or at least my college professors wouldn't agree? but price should have something to do with quality. You don't agree? You should pay more for less reliable?

I owned one and never had any engine or transmission problems, nor did I hear of any.

[QUOTE=4s]They did make one you mean. They don't make the NSX anymore, but I bet they will again esp if they read this forum. And I bet the engines didn't need to be replaced as much. Well, they made it through the 2005 model year.

Bob, keep stirring the pot, oh so entertaining. Like watching a train wreck

Not speechless. Just tired of your BS now. It was fun to jar back and forth with you for a while. But these irrational, ignorant rants you go on are just boring now. Ask for your $18 back from the Rennlist admins and go. I will no longer answer a single post from you anymore until you clean up your act.

what is irrational and ignorant about both of the porsches from european driver having their engines explode on them? if anything, i find it quite ignorant and irrational to completely dismiss the failures as not meaning anything about the reliability of the porsche engines.. some of you continue to completely blame all the engine failures on driver fault when there is clear evidence to indicate otherwise... i just don't see how you can dismiss clear and factual evidence, and then tell everyone the engines are bulletproof? for you it may not matter, and could care less if anything happens to your 996.. but when people buying these cars ask for advice, a $13,000-$18,000 dent in their wallet might be something they want to protect themselves from.. i can clearly say that chances are most 996 owners will never encounter an engine problem, while at the same time, i can rationally say that there is amuch higher probability than most any other car on the market that the engine will need to be replaced... i would atleast think one would accept both sides of the situation shown the clear evidence at hand...

It is all speculation until you actually get some solid statistics on engine failures. Like most internet car enthusiast sites, an issue with a small fraction of cars is always blown up (pun) Now if any of you just can't take waiting for your motor to blow, or have a blown motor ill buy all of these cars at their salvage value just let me know

I have tried and tried to keep an open mind about my 996 and this forum. However, I cannot believe some people can be so bull headed. To totally dismiss the problems these cars are having is not only silly, it is naive. Do you think it is coincidence that so many used early 996's have new motors? Were they ALL abused? I hope it does not happen to ANY of you - because it is very disheartening. It is like waking up on Christmas morning and seeing no presents. Now that I have the car back, I do not even want it. It is like it is tainted now. I am only going to keep it for a month because I spent so much damn money, and after that I will miss it, but with a sour taste in my mouth. Hard to describe. Like if your wife came home and told you she was having an affair. You still love her, but are disgusted and sad at the same time. Does that make sense? That is how I feel about my Porsche now. Anyway, total cost came to about $7,200 - it is running very strong and sounds great. The A/C is nice and cold, and it has been a beautiful couple of days in the OC, except for the damn ashes from the Ana-slime fire. 4S - I feel your pain. Now imagine you have to come out of your pocket for the money and you will know how I feel. Newport Auto does not have the best rep. Anyway, I have started a new websit where I hope to gather info about owners who have had engine failures. It is not fully up now, but under construction. Eventually it will have a place to post owner info, mileage and type of failure, cost of repairs, photos, etc. Any settlement agreement with PCNA would not keep me from trying to help others with their failures. www.996classaction.com Check back soon as it will have a nice counter to keep track of how many motors have been damaged and replaced to date. Am I crazy? Maybe. My wife thinks so. She made me accept the settlement because I do not have the time to persue this properly.

Bob, your "clear" evidence is nothing more than your estimations based on internet message boards. Just because you didn't see anyone saying they had their engines replaced in their Mercedes or BMW or whatever doesn't mean no one did. Give us some numbers! What percentage of engines do you think are failing(based upon your flawless scientific method, of course)? A car magazine *says* they didn't abuse the car, yet they killed two engines in a row. Hmmm, sounds sorta fishy. Guess what- car magazines have guys working for them that know they can beat on cars and they don't have to pay for them. Perhaps their careful-driving editor was TOO careful, and lugged the engine in 6th gear up hills everyday because he was scared to rev it as it was intended... or maybe he enjoyed revving high right after he started it up, or maybe he did an improper break-in and that contributed to it, or maybe his kid borrowed the car while he was sleeping and over-revved it racing his friends, or maybe magic elves broke it.. heck, we just don't know. If the president of the United States can lie to our faces on National TV, then some random car editor can too! Welcome to Earth- were nobody takes responsibility for anything! Why don't the Porsche magazines like Excellence warn people to be careful about 996 engines, instead of saying that this all blown way out of proportion and that the engines are actually quite reliable and strong? Do you really think that you know more about Porsches than they do?

do you know how many cars european car magazine has tested? probably hundreds.. why should the porsche be any different than any of the others cars they tested? why didn't any of the other cars have their engines explode? let alone both of their porsches??? let's be conservative and say 1 of 1,000 people who have 996s post to rennlist and 6speed.. i found 84 non-rms related engine failures on these forums... 130,000 cars sold.. 84 x 130 = 10,920 failures... while no means analytical.. let's be extremely conservative.. let's say 1 of 250 996 owners post to rennlist and 6speed.. 2700+ engine failures not caused by rms by this 84 figure.... once again, completely speculative.. and not relying on any evidence, other than the numbers of posts by people on the forums mentioned... how many is too many? these numbers are purely purely speculative... but how many engine failures is too many? imho anything over 100 is too damn much.. 25 to 100+ times that.. i think we have a problem houston... regardless, nobody knows the true numbers, but for people to completely dismiss the porsche 996 as having a bulletproof engine is just the most naive thing in the world... the porsche 996 is a GREAT car, but the engine has it's flaws... the RMS itself makes it a faulty manufactured engine in itself.. what if the RMS leak costed $10,000 to fix? then would things be different? i think so.. but people live with it because it's only a few hundred dollars to fix.. but when something else goes wrong other than a gasket, it can be $13,000 to $18,000 to fix.. then that's when you get some damn angry people... especially when after shelling out the cash, the only answer the porsche dealer gives you is "the engine has an internal flaw but you are out of warranty, sorry..."

Bob, can you use your fuzzy math to make my tax return come out better?

It's a car afterall. Remember? Point A ----- Point B. Perhaps a bit faster with more comfrort, and style?

While I am a 993 air cooled, dry sump groupy, my wife and I bought an 03 Boxster about 6 months ago. The car has 14K miles on it and just today the bottom of the engine fell out. And, this is the second engine as it was replaced for the same reason at 8500 miles about a year ago. Wifey was tooling around town when all of the sudden, she heard horrid noises and thumping from the back, pulled over and noticed the car had **** itself. Oil everywhere. We will find out tomorrow what the dealer will do. Not happy and really disatisfied with the 'new' age of Porsche products. What still just blows me away is the fact that these are higher end cars from a (once) reputable endurance racing manufacture who happens to sell very nice road cars. If Honda Civic engines were coming apart frequently, one would chalk this up to being cheap cars. Porsches (yes, even Boxsters) are not cheap cars and should not have these recurring massive failures and troubles. That is purely my feeling as of late

I am sick of watching you guys bad-mouth Bob. All you do is sit there like a bunch of irrational kids, with statements like "You don't have any statistical evidence to prove it" and "You're blowing these problems out of proportion." Well, WHAT THE HELL IS A WEB FORUM LIKE RENNLIST FOR, IF NOT TO SHARE INFORMATION ON TOPICS LIKE THIS? Do you idiots really expect Porsche to send out a press release with the exact statistics for 996 engine failures? WAKE UP! RENNIST MEMBERS ARE THE BEST SOURCE OF DATA ON THIS SUBJECT! Are you waiting for a 20/20 or Nightline Special on 996 engine failures before you'll admit there's a problem? You people are so damned committed to IGNORING this quality issue, that you MOCK and attempt to marginalize the individuals like Bob who are trying to shed some light on it, and get it out in the open - I have never seen anything like it. There are common problems with every generation of Porsche, my 993 included. But on the 993 board, we share information openly and honestly, and WORK TOGETHER to find solutions for common problems. One example is the Wiring Harness issue, where the 993 guys kept the pressure on PCNA, resulting in a recall. But here on the 996 board, you try and "hush" any criticism of the cars, and therefore nothing ever gets done. I can't help but think, that if you guys had worked collaboratively from the beginning, the ROOT CAUSE of these engines grenading might have been determined, and maybe even a compromised solution with PCNA? Who knows. But Judging from your attitudes, this issue will remain taboo, and the 996 community at large will suffer because of it. Just silly.

When I first read Bob's posts about his engine failures, they were so incredible that quite frankly I dismissed them as being from someone who wildly exaggerated his problems. After looking for a good used 996 in MD for about a year and a half however, I have come across an alarming number with replaced engines. I'm not suggesting that the numbers from my tiny sample can be extrapolated since my expectation is that a large percentage of 996 owners that keep their cars do so because they are relatively trouble free, and conversely many of those who sell their cars may do so because they have had serious problems. Bob's posts have been helpful to me in that I am now very thorough in my approach to buying a 996. I wouldn't consider buying a 996 unless I was given its complete maintenance history, took the car for an extended test drive, and of course the 996 has to be a CPO car.

Its called rational logical evidenced based thinking twit!

fast1, thanks, i'm glad i could help you out... i learned alot from my experience, and if i'm not saying the 996 isn't a great car... it's the most fun car i've ever had... BUT, one has to take the good with the bad.. and in my circumstances, the bad has left a taste in my mouth of a million sour grapes.. my opinion from what i've been through and seen, is when purchasing a 986/996/997.. one can't go into it naively, like I did.. I learned from my experience, and due to my horrible, horrible experience with my first porsche ever, I will never buy another porsche again in my life... i just have absolutely no faith in the company that manufacturers this car, and honestly everytime i shift, i'm afraid something is gonna break.. hopefully others have better experience than myself.. my porsche is just about sold (finishing up the deal) and i'll be out of all your hair forever... hopefully you all can learn from my experiences and my research.. take what i say as you wish.. if you want to go out and buy the cheapest 99 porsche with 80,000 miles on it without a known history due to your belief in the porsche having bulletproof engines and not having to worry.. all the power to you.. not my first decision, but that's up to the buyer to decide... as said before, contentness breeds mediocrity... i guarantee the 997 would not have been released with the same engine if it was made a huge public spectacle about the engine flaws... nobody did anything about it, so they continued with the same damn engine... and still will continue to charge people for the rms for years to come.. letting porsche get away with this.. will just result in the next version of the carerra being released with the same flaws, so the execs can line their sleeves with even more of your $$$... i don't care anymore really.. porsche won't be a word in my vocabulary shortly, and if you guys want to keep putting up with engine replacements all the time.. all the power to you.. it won't be my money, that's for sure.. porsche? no thank you..

Well logical evidence based thinking is pefectly fine - but WHERE do you get your evidence? If not from Rennlist, where on earth are you going to find evidence from fellow 996 owners of engine problems? At your local grocery store? On the news? Anyone who ignores the evidence presented by fellow Rennlisters, YOU are the illogical ones.

El Tor-Just because a magazine doesn't print bad facts about a car doesn't mean there aren't problems with them. Its called advertising dollars! Its more important for some magazines to keep their advertisers than to print negative stories about them. Do you think Porsche would continue to spend money on ads in a magazine if they printed negative stories about them? I don't think so. I wouldn't believe everything you read/hear in the media esp. if your going to make commennts about our President.(but thats a different forum, so I won't start)

my opinion from what i've been through and seen, is when purchasing a 986/996/997.. one can't go into it naively, like I did.. In a nutshell, that's your primary contribution to all potential buyers of 996s. Don't be naive and believe that just because it's a Porsche, that due dilligance isn't required. Again thanks for sharing your experiences, and I for one believe that I'll benefit from your unfortunate lessons learned.

one thing i learned from bob is, do ppi with porsche dealership, because they can check warranty repair info.

Joe- I'll be posting on your new web site as soon as its up and running. Good idea. I don't think your crazy. This may be the best way to get some real numbers and feedback from other 996ers and their engine problems without having to start the big V thread.

A fool and his Porsche are soon parted. pcar1964-your getting absurdly childish now. So by your logic lets just abandon all proper statistical analysis shall we? Just collect any ol' data and declare '"this is the standard,you other guys better accept it". Well, sonny Jim in case you hadn't noticed the world operates on logic and scientific principles. If we just accepted ***** nilly any hastily cobbled together( baised,skewed etc) data and took action, there would be complete anarchy. I work in the Pathology profession and every methodology is carefully established by large volume testing to assess accuracy and precision, if we didn't, how could we rely on real world results. Do you see my point? If it was established that the 996 had a 'proven' design flaw by the appropriate methods, then of course i would accept that.

munro, when i made that post about the 84 non-rms related engine failures you indicated that they were all due to driver abuse and/or vehicles bought from non-original owners, not knowing the history as the answer as to why they failed... now according to your "logic and scientific principles", if we accepted that "nilly and hastily cobbled together (baised, skewed etc)" answer, it would be pretty inaccurate, not to mention just plain stupid.. wouldn't you say, not knowing each story and situation at hand with these 84 engine failures? especially, since nobody really knows all the inner working of the engine and the potential faults that lie in it ..due to porsche not allowing them to be taken apart for inspection? If you work in pathology in profession and even you indicate every "methodology is carefully established by large volume testing to assess accuracy and precision" how in the hell can you simply dismiss all 84 engine failures as due to neglect by drivers as fact? Do you see my point? oh the webs we weave...

Yes, I see your point -- but WHO are you waiting for to compile this data on the 996? If 993 owners had waited for "someone else" to compile statistical evidence of wiring harness failures, NOTHING would have ever been done. Of course statistical evidence is important - but NOBODY IS GATHERING this evidence except for Rennlisters. And even if Porsche has their own statistics, do you really think they would share them with us? Now I ask you, who's being childish? The people sharing information on engines failures in a public forum, or the people bad-mouthing the whistle-blowers in hopes that the problem will be ignored?

pcar (et. al) - I have yet to see a single person who disputed Bob's case (the facts of what happened to him, not his assumptions on quality & design). No one has disputed what happened to Joe, or any of the other people who have reported failures. We all agree that failures have happened, and will happen in the future. What we dispute is the false assumption that IF this happens to someone, they immediately become an expert on the quality of the engine as a whole. We assert that statistical evidence gathered via Internet forums is INHERENTLY FLAWED. Should a new buyer considering a 996 take the FACTUAL information presented to heart when shopping? Absolutely! Should a new buyer considering a 996 assume the design is flawed based on someone's endless, repetitive harping (lets face it, Bob has already told his story - it doesn't need to be retold a gazillion times) or anecdotal evidence? Absolutely not! If people stuck to sharing facts and personal experiences, we would all be enlightened and enriched. Hypothesizing on something you have no real knowledge of just diminishes the value of your information or opinion. *I* am a new 996 buyer who looked to the board for advice, but I only care for facts and not conjecture.

Has anyone heard of the Bell Distribution Curve? The basic principle is this: at the bottom of either side of the bell shape are the statistical outliers i.e. in the case the 996's that experience siginificant mechanical problems, they are to be found at the bottom left of the Bell curve that represent approximately 2% of all 996's. One the other side and at the bottom of the Bell curve are the 996's that experience no mechanical problems and therefore achieve exceptional engine and other mechanical durability. The rest of the 996's, i.e. those within the rest of the Bell curve, are spread between these extremes. This is typical of everything EVER manufactured. It cannot be avoided, its simply not humanly possible to achieve perfection if the manufacturing process is to be profitable. Now given this, excluding all the human contributions in running the car, some will inevitably fail. The poor smuck who gets dealt this card has to wear it. Its like cancer-who of us doesn't know someone who has lead a healthy,exemplary existence and has died within 3months, ravaged by cancer? Until I hear otherwise, the ANECTDOTAL narratives presented here are just that! I don't doubt there veracity, in that they occured, however how do wew know the real cause? Bob can bang on all he likes (aint that the truth!) but its all just puffery mixed with personal bitterness on his part. He, possibly, is one of the poor smucks that lies on the edge of Mr Bell. Unfortunately it tolled for Bob.

Just to help you out. They are not outliers, they are "normally" distributed data points. Outliers create skewness not normality.

Oh, Dell.... tomato....tomah-to!!!

Dell I didn't mean outliers in the sense they were 'abnormal'. That is precisely my point-they are normal occurences.

I figured as much. That was just the stats professor in me talking.

It's quite easy. If you expect the manufacturer to stand behind the product, buy one within its warranty period.

Heh heh you guys call it a bell curve and engineers call it a Gaussian distribution.

One in the same. Normal Distribution, Gaussian Distribution, Tomato, Tomahto