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The cooling issue disappeared with the 911...but, people still kept their revs up and "cleaned" out the engine due to leaded fuel and less-than-precise fuel metering.
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These cars are typically rarely used 2nd or 3rd cars.
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The cooling issue disappeared with the 911...but, people still kept their revs up and "cleaned" out the engine due to leaded fuel and less-than-precise fuel metering.
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- My confidence about efficiency is based partly on two things: I keep religious track of mileage (I think this is a great indication of how well an engine is running), and I pay close attention to my tailpipes (following an issue with my Dinan Z3).
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Have a 2001 6 speed manual. In NY when highway cruising at 55 or 60 should I be in 6th or keep the revs up in 5th?
Let's face facts. The car is really happy when turning 4000 rpm/
Thanks for the input
Clearly, all these guys have more money for gas than I do. In the 50's...I use 5th gear. I'll use 5th a lot higher if I'm going up a slope. But on flat roads from 60 up -- 6th.
There was a culture in Porsche that started with the 356 of not letting your revs get below 3000 for normal running. But...that was mostly because the cooling fans in 356's were marginal...so you wanted to keep the revs up to manage temps....and because the engines were small with little torque....so you kept your revs up for hp.
The cooling issue disappeared with the 911...but, people still kept their revs up and "cleaned" out the engine due to leaded fuel and less-than-precise fuel metering.
With the accurate fuel metering we have now, water cooling and unleaded fuel...all you need to do is avoid lugging the engine. All higher revs are for speed and entertainment. BUT....it's damn fine entertainment.
55-60 in 4th. Our cars have tall gears. Here is a story that happened today. I'm driving back from a pcar event at the local dealer, I'm in 5th doing 70 on 465 (the loop around Indy). Some dude in a Pontiac Grand Prix decides to close in on me hard and we are side by side. He looks at me and I downshift to 4th and than to 3rd still doing 70. I see his eyes widen
when he hears the motor and he decides to punch it. He has no clue that 3rd will take me to around 103....so I had to show him
. Oh how I love this car!
Right, but that leaves open the question of what rpm constitutes "lugging". To me, a dyno chart tells the tale. At 2500 rpm or so, the engine is barely making 100hp (going from memory, so I may be off a little). Tooling around town, that's plenty. But that same 100hp at that same 2500 rpm
is
lugging if you're doing it at highway speeds, given that power has to rise exponentially with velocity. So that I
don't
do.
Put my summer tires on yesterday. YES. Not sure how I avoided a serious ticket on the way home....felt awfully good at 70 to drop into 3rd and run it to redline....more than once. Cheeze....am I ready for warmer weather and drier roads.
For steady driving on flat roads I'm in 6th from 45mph. Should be around 1800 rpm in a manual car which is totally adequate for keeping your speed. Need harder acceleration? Shift gears! Driving down a highway at 4000rpm is just silly.
5th if I'm just cruising. 4th if I want to to go faster in a hurry. 3rd if I want to go faster in a hurry and scare my passenger.
Maybe the turbo is geared differently but 45 in 6th gear would be about 1400rpm in my car. Probably lugging and definitely not fun.
All due respect, that's a nonsense statistic. It completely ignores aerodynamic variation, which is the majority of what determines the work an engine has to do at speed. You surely know this better than I do. Second, just because an engine can produce the necessary power at a given rpm, doesn't mean it's doing so efficiently (and therefore in a way that's healthy for the motor). And third, as any motorcycle driver will tell you, it's a matter of safety (not to mention fun) that you should be operating an engine at a point in the power band where you have some reserve acceleration available without needing to downshift.
What you intend to do next plays a big part in deciding what gear to select at a particular speed. In my opinion, if you're cruising along at 55, and intend to stay at that speed, 6th gear is fine. That (or the equivalent of that) is the gear an automatic transmission would put you in under those circumstances. It's easy on the engine, transmission, and fuel economy. On the other hand, if you are cruising at 55 with the intention of accelerating to the 80+mph that your car was intended to cruise at
you probably want to be in 4th or 5th, depending upon the amount of acceleration you feel you need.
I am only five month into 996 ownership and tend to forget 6th gear...
...easily done after 10 years of 964 ownership...
anyway, when I do remember, I put it in when I found a steady pace anywhere after 45mph...
I normally drive on 6th when cruising on the highway (65-90MPH); but if I see anything approaching that resembles a sports car in my rear view mirror (Mustang, Camaro, Charger, Firebird, Corvette, etc...).
I downshift to 5th or 4th and maintain speed (depending on how fast they are approaching).
And then I make a decision on what to do (given the output of my radar detector), usually the decision is to let them smell my exhaust.
If you have a six-speed 996 C2/C4 then 3000 rpm in fourth will give you about 52 mph, but around 66mph for a tiptronic. Source: The Porsche owners manual.
More from the owners manual:
"Do not drive longer than necessary in the lower gears. Shifting into a higher gear early without lugging the engine will help save fuel."
If your 996 lugs at 4500 rpm or even 2500 rpm when in a steady cruise you need to get it to a Porsche mechanic asap.
I didnt say fourth..... I said 3rd!!
go back and double check me, but I am sure I said 3rd
and those statements were not put in place by the engineers, they were put in the manual by the lawers - if you bought a Porsche to save fuel you read something posted as a resulty of an EPA requirement
yea, seriously... i would drive at 3000+ all damn day and not worry about it, thats not to say that sometime I dont run lower,,, I mean I am old and sometimes forget
For me 6th gear is an autobahn gear that I will never use in the states. I also use 5th occasionally. I bought this car for performance and the sweet spot. I intend to enjoy it and I do that in second third and fourth gear on public roads. If I want to cruise at 2500-3000rpm I'll buy a Lexus or Cadillac. If I want the fuel economy I'll buy a prius or a clean diesel. I am not concerned about MPG when I drive this car. Don't forget what the car is.
Coming from other cars with short gears, I often tend to forget how fast you can go in the first 3 gears in our cars.
If you haven't downshifted to 3rd at highway speeds, you are missing out on a whole new attitude your car can take on.
For me it's usually 5th for hwy driving or 3rd for passing. Only time I'll be in 6th is if there is an open stretch of road and I'm cruising above 70mph with no hurry to get anywhere.
3rd and 4th for asskicking throttle response. 5th for a longer highway ride. I just listed my rarely used as new 6th gear for sale.
I also manually deploy the spoiler because it is bootalicious, and chastise myself when my shifts aren't like butta.
It's not like a granny-drive my 996 and never push it past 2000 rpm. But everything at it's time. Example: This past weekend I cruised for two hours at highway speeds to a snow&ice trackday. It would be both silly, uncomfortable and loud to drive all they way with the engine screaming at 4500 rpm.
I like my 6th gear thank you, and Porsche put it there for a reason.
I use 6th gear all the time on highways. I don't need the power and if I really need to pass someone quickly 5th is right at my fingertips. Even 6th gear usually has enough grunt to get me out of most situations.
And although I didn't buy this car for economical reasons, it was nice to see MPG in the high 20s when cruising back from the track this past weekend. My car already went through it's paces so letting it relax on the ride home in 6th gear was a welcome change for it.
I just don't see the need to keep it in a lower gear unless I am in a constant passing situation with a lot of traffic. But on a regular highway 6th gear is sufficient. Now in town I use lower gears because the power is needed more readily, but on a faster road it's not necessary.
I haven't found high speed mileage to be one of this car's vices. My last long highway trip netted me just under 22 miles per US gallon. At 100 mph. (Whereas city mileage is unspeakable).
A car enthusiast needs to understand that every engine has a pocket of maximum efficiency. They aren't horses. They don't need to rest. This particular engine will last longer and run cleaner and more economically when it's driven harder and maintained well. Bear in mind that the ECU is adaptive, and is one of the most sensitive I've ever seen. Try this experiment: Drive your car gently in the city for a week or two, and then take it out and thrash it for a couple of hours on a quiet road or a track. It will feel different afterward, more different than any bolt-on mod you can name (ask me how I know). More responsive, better sounding, less hesitant off-idle and freer revving. Why? Because you allowed it to unlearn the evil fuel mapping it adapted to all that low rpm urban use... mapping that tends to run the engine rich, among other things.
If I was irritated by the sound of my engine operating between 3-4000 rpm, I might consider something other than a Porsche. I promise you that the guy who drives his 996 mostly in that pocket isn't being hard on it, he's taking care of it.
Unless you're 75 years old I doubt pushing your Porsche will be a problem. I hit 5-6000 rpms daily
That being said, you won't harm it by crusing in 6th on the highway.
I agree with this 100%. I just replaced my brake pads. So, I went out one early morning to bed the pads. Zoom up to 60ish. Then jam on the brakes down to 10mph. Repeat 7-8 times. My car seemed to keep getting more powerful and smoother running.
+1. These people are either the type that drive their car 1000 miles a year, or the sad people that lack maturity and self control.
1. Grow up. Street racing is childish, stupid, and dangerous.
2. You better start looking for v6 mustangs and camaros and ignoring corvettes entirely, because a standard 996 is going to struggle against modern v8 muscle cars and corvettes.
+1 yet again.
+1
A car enthusiast also understands that there is absolutely zero point at being at high revs when you drive at a constant speed.
Now, you are another person spouting off immense BS. So lets address it.
You say
This particular engine will last longer and run cleaner and more economically when it's driven harder
prove it. prove how it lasts longer, prove how it runs cleaner, and prove how its more economical (LOL).
then
Bear in mind that the ECU is adaptive, and is one of the most sensitive I've ever seen. Try this experiment: Drive your car gently in the city for a week or two, and then take it out and thrash it for a couple of hours on a quiet road or a track. It will feel different afterward, more different than any bolt-on mod you can name (ask me how I know). More responsive, better sounding, less hesitant off-idle and freer revving. Why? Because you allowed it to unlearn the evil fuel mapping it adapted to all that low rpm urban use... mapping that tends to run the engine rich, among other things.
1. How many have you seen? Have you looked at the 996 fuel and timing maps?
2. Better sounding? Care to explain that nonsense?
3. Care to explain how the engine runs rich at low rpm and small throttle openings when the closed loop ecu is designed to keep the car as close to stoich as possible in those conditions?
4. Among other things aye? And what would those be?
finishing up with the most bs of all:
I promise you that the guy who drives his 996 mostly in that pocket isn't being hard on it, he's taking care of it.
Bull****...flat out bull****. Higher rpm=great friction=faster wear. Period, end of sentence. Id love to see if you have any EVIDENCE to the contrary.
its in your head my friend, I'm sorry to say.
Around here the highways are 65 MPH - 70 MPH, so assuming I go around 7 MPH over when I'm just cruising, I'm averaging between 72 MPH and 77 MPH in 6th gear. I don't recall the exact RPM but it was around 3100 which I feel is plenty enough speed to keep the engine alive and happy.
I also keep an eye on the oil pressure and in almost all cases it sits above 4 when at that speed.
Now if the highway is a 55 MPH and I actually have to do that speed I'll usually keep it in 5th gear since the RPMs are little low in 6th gear.
I would personally consider lugging at anything below 2500 RPM when going uphill or attempting to pass. But at a constant speed even that is probably okay. Perhaps someone with a Tip could let us know at what speed the transmission shifts to it's overdrive gear?
Tips shift gear way too soon for my taste. I would say it shifts to high gear around 40 mph. I sometimes hit 5th before I leave my residential neighborhood. Unless you stomp on the gas, the transmission will shift gears around 2000 rpm.
But when you do stomp on the gas, it will take you to the lowest possible safe gear and it feels like the JATOs are kicking in.
All of this shift talk is making me envious.
nope, its a case of the "i'm tired of people perpetuating stupid myths like "driving hard is good for an engine"".
If you want to listen to this nonsense...well thats your prerogative.
Drive your car hard because you think its fun, thats it...but cruising at 70mph in 4th gear is extremely pointless.
Geezus......someone needs to untwist their undies a few notches. No where on here did it say (by anyone) to drive at 4K constantly....but since these cars redline at 7200 do we really think we are killing our cars at 4K? No way. The car sings at higher revs. Period.
Tell you what, Quadcammer. Any jackass can call BS; it takes neither expertise nor courage to do it. And I'm sure you aren't a jackass. So since you're the skeptic, why don't we start with you answering all those questions first? That way, I'll know whether I'm being challenged by someone who knows more than I do, or merely by a troll.
Exactly right. Every engine runs best when it's operating inside the parameters for which it was designed and is compromised when it isn't, from tractors to airplanes. I'm blown away that this is even debatable.
I note with interest the rarity of M96 engines that failed due to wear on reciprocating parts...
I never said drive 70 and 4k rpms...
freeway in my area is 55,.... I said 3rd (4th is fine if you wanna putt around) and in no way is that "driving it hard" its actually the opposite... the motor is spinning and IMO it likes to spin fast rather than tug boat along...I come from VW's and you drive a 40 hp motor kinda rapped out..it is easier on the motor to spin fast then to have large torquing action from low rpm's - you dont have to red line it, just keep it spinning, they love it! - (course top speed is like 70 and you have to have big ones to get a 40 horse that fast!)
Bruce, please keep in mind that Quad owns a 993, if I am not mistaken, and they need a top end rebuild after traveling so many miles. I would assume that higher RPMs hasten the need for the rebuild, thus the hesitation for Quad to recommend driving at higher RPMs.
Um, thats exactly what people said.
What gear are you in at 55-60mph and answer of 3rd or 4th. What kinda revs is that?
Are you killing it? No...are you creating more wear...yup.
Sings? Another bull**** term made up by people with absolutely zero support for their position. You like how your engine sounds at 4k rpm? Great, have at it, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're doing your engine any favors.
see below
And since when is running at 2500rpm steady speed cruise outside of its operating parameters? This is not some highly tuned race car that idles at 2000rpm. Its a run of a the mill flat 6. It is perfectly fine in 6th gear at 2500rpm on the highway.
These cars are typically rarely used 2nd or 3rd cars. Not to mention production compared to the typical toyota is miniscule. Finally, the majority of owners are not posting on forums. Hence you probably haven't heard much.
So why is it that you compare the driving technique of a 40bhp VW to your 200bhp 911. They are completely different powerplants. Of course you need to spin the **** out of a 40bhp vw, it has no power anywhere. Your 3.2 has plenty of power at "tug boat" rpms of 2500rpms".
Um, there is no fairy dust in your M96. High revs wear out internal combustion engines faster...this is no mystery.
Btw, I don't think comparing the reliability of the M64 to the M96 will turn out in your favor.
1. It seems like you are focused on carbon build up here. Given the electronic fuel injection and adaptive ecu (as you noted), carbon build up is incredibly minor. Regardless of whether the engine is run at 4000rpm or 2500rpm, the ecu with use the 02 sensor feedback to keep the a/f ratio near stoich. Timing is advanced to get the most complete fuel burn without detonation. Porsche wants to produce good fuel mileage and minimal emissions. These vehicles don't have weber carbs and points ignition...carbon build up is basically a non issue...and even if it was, higher rpm and low load would produce the same result at low rpm and low load. 2500rpm on the highway is more than enough to prevent lugging considering a 996 needs maybe 20bhp to keep its highway speed.
2. i've tuned numerous N/A and forced induction cars, from fuel and timing maps to maf curves. I don't deal with 996s, but I'm familiar with the ecu used by the vehicle. Its not exactly revolutionary. The adaptive fuel trims and timing are used to keep a/f stoich and emissions clean at part throttle. At full throttle, the car reverts back to open loop anyway, which provides commanded fuel and timing maps.
3. The engine sounds the same because it is the same. The sound is provided by the exhaust, the engine block material, the firing order, and several other variables. Whether you regularly run the car hard or not has nothing to do with it.
4. Once again, higher rpm=higher friction=more wear. heres a test for you. Run your hand along concrete at 3" per second back and forth. Then do it at 1 inch per second. Which do you think will result in less skin on your hand?
Once again, running the car at wot to redline is not a big deal. it won't cause instant engine damage or catastrophic failure. But you aren't doing your engine any favors. Furthermore, running at high rpms for no reason simply causes additional engine cycles which will eventually cause shorter life for items like the rings and valve springs.
If you want to do it for fun, go ahead. But this is not a needle bearing 356 motor, 2500rpm is not lugging a god damn thing.
OK so maybe we just want to emphisize dont under rev.. i looked at the gear/mph/rpm chart and I guess 3rd is a little high for "cruising" but I think it started as a bit of fun and turned into something more.....
2500 rpm is about minimum for me - yes I tend to run it a little faster as I have not grown up yet and pray I wont be all grown up too soon... - turning my "debate" switch - OFF -
IF you use lower pressue the 1 inch a second can create less wear...there is some point where presure and friction and heat and waer have a sweet spot and some area where the percent is not sufficiently differant and some point where its a big frickin deal...
RE carbon build up... I have seen Tips and 6 speed pistons and almost without exception you can tell which is which from across the room.... same motor, same firing order same ECU... differant RPM usage
whoops I thought I was in debate -OFF- mode
Point is that at 2500, you have enough power to not need significant throttle to keep that speed. The difference in throttle opening to retain speed between 2500 and 4000rpm is maybe 5%. Considering you are already at very light load, the cylinder pressure differences are not really worth discussing.
Ok, so one piston has a very light coating of carbon...so what? This is not exactly going to harm anything.
+1 on the RPM's we can put that horse in the ground....
carbon is not one piston, I mean ALL pistons on tips -vs- 6 speeds, they tend to have significantly more carbon build up... and on close to zero clearance motor the added carbon can make contact with the head, so yes, carbon is an issue at some point. It also effects heat disapation to some degree I would suspect. Having the choice to use carboned up pistons or clean tops I doubt you would put the carbon ones in there for some reason or another which is the same as saying you dont think they are as good... maybe not bad, but not as good....so tips run lower rpm's and have more carbon deposits = cant be better = lower rpm cant be better
there I win
I appreciate the effort you put into your response, but you're really just making counterclaims rather than making me smarter. So we'll agree to disagree.
I've owned two dozen cars and raced a little. I've also consulted to two car companies. But I'm not a mechanic or an engineer. I can only make calls on the basis of my aggregated observations and what I've learned along the way, just as you are doing. And here's what I think:
- Only an electric motor operates at the same efficiency all the time. Reciprocating engines don't. I drive my diesel tractor differently than I drive my 996, because the engines were built to operate differently. I see no dividend in making a motor do something its designers didn't make a priority of, even i fit can. These guys had a specific 'typical' use in mind when they made decisions about reciprocating parts.
- My confidence about efficiency is based partly on two things: I keep religious track of mileage (I think this is a great indication of how well an engine is running), and I pay close attention to my tailpipes (following an issue with my Dinan Z3).
- This engine doesn't suffer much from wear to reciprocating parts (most don't. I was recently in a limo that had over a million kilometers on it). Whereas it does suffer from lots of things that may -
may
- be related to engines being used too little and too gently. That's the risk I choose to take.
- I have to disagree that carbon is not an issue, having just spent a few thousand dollars rebuilding the top end of my wife's MINI. It's a long story and not really all that relevant, but believe me. Carbon is not something to dismiss, even in a modern engine.
I don't know why this issue makes you so hostile, but you are absolutely free to use your car as you see fit as far as I'm concerned. Until someone educates me otherwise - that's educates, not berates - I'm going to remain a member of the drive-it-like-you-stole-it tribe, which is pretty large and seems, anecdotally at least, to have pretty trouble free cars.
When I drove my C4S across canada...I had the cruise on in 6th doing 115-120KPH. I was getting 7.8L/100Kms through flat, boring Saskatchewan! That's MUCH better than Porsche's own numbers.
Even now...doing long trip on cruise at 120-125....I get under 10L/100Kms...and that's also better than Porsche's number.
I could do pretty close to 600Kms to a tank. The EPA rating for my car says I should only get 441Kms.
City driving....and especially in the winter....my fuel economy SUCKS *****. In the winter I've been getting 300Kms to a tank. The computer tells me I'm getting 18.4L/100Kms. Which is WORST than Porsche's and EPAs numbers.
So in the end, I think it all balances out.
I guess I do "inspired" driving, and this winter there has been a lot of "TC OFF"-driving, both around town and elsewhere. I've usually been between 22-23L/100kms.
And 98 unleaded costs 2,56 usd / litre...
Oh, sweet jeebus... don't get everybody going on octane.
FWIW, I feel your pain. The price difference between regular and premium in Canada runs about 15 cents a litre, which translates to 57 cents per US gallon. Those guys don't know how lucky they are...
Octane is easy: Fill whatever is written in the manual. Porsche says 98 for my 996 so that's what I'm filling. Any more than that without a remap is just as silly as screaming down the highway at 4500 rpm
Can we talk about the type of air we put in the tires? Do you use Mountain, West Coast / East Coast or Artic air? What about Irish Spring air? What about having different types of air in each wheel or front vs. rear? Would my car develop an accent dependent on the percentage of air from a particular region? Would air from San Fran make my car get a lisp? Bull**** say you! I beg to differ! Plus.....I heard you get better mileage driving in reverse and it is really easy on your motor because everything turns backwards and un-does everything you just done did.
i don't see a diy thread to show how to check which gear has the least wear. if you knew then you could abuse the better shape gear. uh yah right.
it really isn't hard changing gears for actions wanted to be made.......
Just so I can join in the mood-lifting spirit, I present to you the stone cold funniest post ever made to this forum. I refer you to Riad's reply, #2:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...996-997-a.html
Why is that so funny?
Other than the fact that the OP asked how long it takes to produce a 996/997 and Riad explained in depth the procedures Porsche used to produce the 993. At least that is what I gather from occasionally reading the 993 board...
