Hardest decision ever 964 v 996.

The dramatic title pretty much describes it. I'm in the market for a new daily driver/enjoyment car, and after about 6 months of research I've decided on either a 964 C2 or a 996 C2. Everyday I constantly switch back from both cars, thats why I want to hear some of your opinions. The 996 would obviously be the better DD but I'm not sure I would enjoy it as much as the 964, and air cooled flat six is orgasmic. Unfortunately I have only been able to test drive the 996 and that was when I was about 9 years old, I have though been fortunate enough to be a passenger in a 964 and it was pretty amazing. Anyone ever driven a 964 and a 996 and what was your thoughts on each? (Damn every time I make a thread I have a 3 page essay in my head but it comes out trimmed, any extra info I'm forgetting I'll add it in as I go.)

If I may ask One question please. If its as a DD why would you not conceder the 993 if you would like an Air cooled. Its nowhere near as old as 964.

As lovely as the 996 is, on cross country drives sometimes I wonder if I should borrow my sister's new Volvo... I'd stick to as new as you can afford. Air cooled 911s are cool, but I wouldn't want anything older than a 996, not as your main car.

I have owned a 1991 964 C2 Cab with Tip.. and now have a C4 2000 996 withTip. So if you are a stick shifter my comments may not matter - but you do get one extra gear in either tranny in the 996 vers,es the 964 - plus 50 or so horsepower - and better gas mileage (lighter car by 100 lbs with 200 cc smaller engin in the Mk 1 996. Now if you want the Tip for DD Traffic the 996 is +++ better. Cabin room is better, better ergonomics, way improved rear suspension, better A/C and sound system... and on and on. So may be you have quessed by now I would never go back to the 964 - and yet when I owned it I loved it. 10 years of Porsche engineering is hard to ignore. Sorry but if what your looking for is a better DD Porsche that Sounds better "air cooled flat six is orgasmic." I recomment you get the 996 and invest in a Sport muffler and you have it all in a 10 year newer Carrera for maybe $3 to $5k more? Or as noted consider the 993 and pay anothe $5k and get less than the 996 offers just to listen to the rattle of an Air Cooled motor. Oh and unless you like doing valve adjustments and 12 sparkplug changes - you would find the 996 less expensive to maintain.

I was in the same boat and went with the 996. Although the 964 is my favorite body style, I've heard it's easier to work on the 996s. And how did you test drive a 996 when you were 9?

same boat as you..... I went with the 996. Drive both, and you will know which one.

Have you driven the 964 and 996 recently? They really are 2 different Porches, old school vs new school, different looks etc.

I've driven both although the 964 was only as a test drive. I too was conflicted because I loved everything the air-cooled stood for and the sound was to die for. I remember the first test drive I had of the 964 left me smiling for hours afterwards. But once I drove the 996 I found that I can get 90% of that experience with the modern conveniences and reliability I need in a daily driver. Of course having a sport exhaust and shifter do help tremendously here. I had a 1991 944 before my 996 and it was a great car. But being older meant fixing little things here and there. I don't miss that at all and I know I would have still been doing it had I gone with a 964 or 993. For a weekend machine these fixes are no problems, but when you start a job on Friday night knowing you have to get it done by Monday morning, that is a little too stressful! Good luck with your decision!

The people who frequent this site (myself included) are real fans of watercooled 911s. Asking us about aircooled vs. watercooled won't present many surprise answers. Here's something I wrote in December 2007 on this forum: It's not really a question about water cooling vs. air/oil cooling, it's more a question of whether you want Porshe's advancements that have been built into the 996/997 cars. For a thorough assessment of the 993 vs. the 996, for example, read the 996 road test in the August 1998 issue of Excellence magazine. Additional contributions to the article came from Hurley Haywood. Here are some points in the article that identify some of the major improvements made by Porsche in the new model as well as impressions of the testers. "The 993 lacks the poise and balance of the new 996. And it's a lot less comfortable to drive. My head feels pressed against the glass of the old upright windshield, and the floor-mounted clutch and brake pedals preclude heel and toeing." "The longer wheelbase (up 3") and widened track (up 2") of the 996 optimize the rear-engined platform. The quantum improvement from 993 to 996 far exceeds the wampum leap Porsche made from the Carrera 2 to the 993." "The laden ground clearance of the 996 is 1" less than that of the 993, effectively lowering the new 911's center of gravity." "The gearchange is so much better than anything Porsche has done before...." "Significantly, the new 3.4 liter motor is not only 26 hp more powerful than the old one (despite being 200 cc smaller) but it is also 110 pounds lighter than the old lump." Good luck!

For a daily driver, unless you live in a very rural part of NJ, get the 996. A 964 will be a lot more intimate on backroads, but will be completely miserable in the stoplight to stoplight hell that is most of the populated parts of NJ. You'll also constantly be worrying about oil temps in the summer. That's what's so great about the 996: it's a Honda in the daily grind, and a Porsche when you want it to be.

seriously... its a car buy one and drive it for a year (or two) and buy another one as for the early car as a DD Love It !! it is not without its fair share of challenges.... but big deal, what else do you have to do - enjoy them all if you can

So, you test drove a 996 when you were 9 years old? I'm interested in hearing a brief perspective on your take of the car. How did you find the clutch action? Did you experience the slight rear weight bias compared to other cars, but less than previous Porsches? And about the steering, did it captivate you? Now back to your original question. Do you have a lot of experience working cars, particularly German cars? They seem to do things a bit differently. With either car, you should have a cash reserve as things can get expensive, very expensive. The car may actually seem rather inexpensive compared to costs relating to potential problems. Being a DD, if you want a 996, I'd go with the latest, an '03-'05. I believe the '05 would have to be the TT though and that could be good for the robustness of the motor. Newer is better with most anything as far as dependability. If you go and earlier car, one in very good condition and mechanically sound, it can still torment you with small inconvienent issues. Like brake problems, alternator, starter, window motors, wheel bearings, electronic issues, etc. These will likely cost just several hundreds of dollars to repair rather than many thousands, but with an older DD these can be a monthly experience. Good luck with your choice.

I'm sure this is not what you want to hear, But it is truly the best advice I can give you. You, at 17 cannot afford a Porsche. Insurance, and maintence costs will kill you. Stay in school, and look to the future. Aim for a good job that pays well, then when the time is right, go shopping. I too, at 13 wanted a P car, I've had 5 but was in my early 30s when I got my first. Glad I waited. Family, housing and saving comes first. Invest your $23k. It's not enough for a nice car.

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Why would he be miserable? The clutch isn't heavy, the 964 has power steering/brakes, and with the exception of the few hottest days, the AC should keep up OK. As for oil temps, a well maintained 964 should not have any concerns about oil temps, and if he is concerned, a simple manual fan switch that kicks the high speed fan on will keep the car plenty cool.

Nick, good insite... I didnt see the OP's age (still dont but...) if he is 17 I also advise the same thing...go to school. If you are making money thats great but will it be the kind of money that will support you for your whole life, with wife/kids/college for kids/house/health and retirement.... most likely if you are 17 the answer is NO - if you just gotta have a Porsche... sink the money into education and get a car you can drive for now... we are all old and wish we bought one earlier but for the most part are all happy we waited. Trust me life is about to change... hold on a bit till you find out who you are about to become

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Don't follow your "It's not enough for a nice car." I'd bet there are a number of decent early 996s in that price category that 'will' buy him or anyone looking for a nice car.

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If he's 17 it will more likely be a fixer-upper. I didn't realize he was 17. When you're 17, you can drive anything. When I was younger, my commuter car had a race clutch, straight through exhaust, no interior and I had to upshift based on the egt gauge or it would blow up.

It's the DD part of you post that would lead me to recommend the 996. The 964 is an awesome 911, and driving one is like getting back into a time machine that will transport you back to a simpler time. The heavy door thunk, floor hinged pedals, simplistic interior are all a part of the charm. That being said, the 996 (as you would expect after so much development) does almost everything better. Not only is in in a different league altogether when it comes to power and handling, it's just plain easier to live with. That classic 911 feel is all there, but it's sharpened up and refined. The 964 is great in much the same way that it's nice to be a bit nostalgic and watch old movies in black and white. However, most would agree that for everyday viewing of modern programs they would prefer color. In short, the 964 is a great 2nd car in my opinion, but it's getting a little long in tooth to but subjected to DD duty. One final note. Much is often said about the 996 and early 997 with respect to the long term reliability of their engines. There are a lot of these cars running around with high miles on them and most with these cars has never had any problems. That being said the IMS bearing has been identified as the source of some significant failures in a small percentage of these cars. The good news is that a replacement aftermarket bearing is available and the modified bearing can be installed (best during a clutch change IMHO) relatively cheaply. Porsche has yet to build any 911 that is issue free (they all have some weaknesses) and 996's and 964's both have had some issues. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Part of the question is, do you want a sports car? Or do you want a sports car that's a hobby? Same with all older cars, airplanes and boats. What you lose in reliability and parts availability, you gain in personal involvement in repairs, maintenance and operation.

Entering college broke because you put all your money in a nice car and working your a$$ off to maintain it and pay for insurance is not the best way to start your life. Unless you know you are going to continue to have a lot of money going forward - I would look at a lower cost, yet fun and safe car. If it has to be a Porsche, a 914 and 944 can be a great fun car - but much lower cost than a 911. You may even be able to find a boxster for a much lower cost. All these would leave you with plenty of your cash to pay for any surprises and actually pay for dinner when you get a date. There are TONS of other non-P cars to look at. Subura Impreza WRX (or WRX-STi) is a fantastic car; very reliable and cheap to work on, can provide the same thrill - but in a different platform. Mitsubishi Evo etc. Sorry to jump on the "you are 17" thread...probably not what you want to hear. But most of us have been there - and just trying to give you some good advice overall. But for your question - a standard Carrera 996. Keeps the cost down but has enough modern features to make it a good all around car. Just leave yourself enough cash when you buy it to fix all the little things that are bound to pop up. My perfectly good '02 has cost me over $3k in the last 3 months. Fixing little things both cosmetic and functional as well as maintenance. The same things in a Subaru would have been at least half of that.

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My father owned a C4. Never was a fan of the 993, never liked the lines at all of the NA, the turbo on the other hand is a whole different story. Haha excuse my wording it wasn't a "test drive" it was more of a "DADDY Can I drive , STALL STALL 5 Mph. "

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Can't say that I agree that a 996 feels like a classic 911. ok, so you've never driven either. That is your first step.

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That was when I was 9...

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like I said, you have not driven either. 5 minutes behind the wheel at 9 years old has zero value here. You need to drive these cars, and I mean really drive them before you can make a wise decision

I own a 993 (close to a 964) cab and a 40th 996. The 993 has a softer ride and makes better noises (max speed sport exhaust). The 996 black full leather interior is very nice to my eye even though it has been criticized by many. The 996 is much quicker in most circumstances. I suppose if you managed to only run between 5k and 7k rpm the performance would be close. In no scenario would the 993 be faster than the X51 996 on any track. The 993 is truly a beautiful car where as the 996 looks a little ungainly from many angles. The 993 feels ancient when you first get it in although the feel grows on you. The 993 is a modern car. I save the 993 for special occasions where as I drive the 996 everyday. Important: if it gets over 90 degrees where you live the air conditioning has a hard time keeping up if you let the car sit in the sun before you drive it. The 996 air works great. Also per the previous posts on 12 spark plugs: It also has 2 distributers, 2 cabin filters, all kinds of fuses and relays that fail as well as a tricky top. Engine may prove more reliable in the longterm though as the 996 engine seals never leave the back of my mind although it will most likely never be an issue. If you plan to maintain the 964 yourself you need to be handy or rich. If I could have only one I would keep the 993 as I believe it will be worth more in five years and I get more complements on it. For some reason the 996 just does not feel as special. If you like racing buy a 996 though.

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Nick - most assuredly not what he wanted to hear! Although I certainly agree with you, now that I am old and wise! I believe I was 27 when I got my first 911, which was probably pretty young. It was an 83 Targa. And that was after years of working plenty of overtime in public accounting, saving, and buying my first home. But of course, everyone's circumstances can be different.

Someone above recommended a Boxster. That's not a bad recommendation - given how cheap I see 00-02's going now a days. I would also recommend the Honda S2000 in that vein. I know, higher reving, japanese, etc., etc. Now if the 17 year old says he needs the 911's backseats for the baby seats, then we have a whole different discussion in front of us!

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I'm not saying it feels exactly like an old 911. In truth, each new 911 feels somewhat different than the models before and after it. So if you want a true "classic 911" feel you'd have to go back to a pre-impact bumper model from the late sixties or early seventies (or better still, I'd love to backdate a 3.2). What I am saying is that a 996 does share some of the same basic driving characteristics that seem to be inherent in the rear engine design of all 911's. As I indicated in my previous post I'm a fan of both cars, I just happen to think that a DD grind might be a lot to ask of a 20 year old car especially if purchased on the budget of a typical 17 year old.

Easy 996

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I apologize I interpreted it the wrong way.

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Hahaha

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no need to apologize, simple misunderstanding.

he's a 17 year old BOY, what on earth would he want a Boxster for and if you pick up a $10k Boxster be ready to drop $5k right away to avoid the $20k repair...and then you still have a Boxster at 17 I would want something more raw... heck I want something more raw at 44, 996 is an old man car, dont believe me, take an age poll here (awe boy here come the flames!) - wanna see really old p-cars owners head over to the 993 board

Maybe I can add some value here. I just turned 27 and purchased my 993TT last year. I also live in NJ and realize how high the cost of living and insurance is. I like my car very much, but parts can be hatefully expensive and even worse hard to find. For instance, the 993TT distributor cap is on backorder, and has been for 10 months. The only way to get one is through Porsche dealers (at twice the price or more) or get a 2nd rate part. I imagine this kind of thing is more prevalent with the 964. If you can do all your own work, owning these cars is much cheaper, which is a benefit for me. That said, stuff is pricey as hell. I say go with the bimmer...its a better choice at this point, imho

27 !!! YOU have NO BUSINESS enjoying a p-car

964 parts are easy to find. Yea some are made of precious metals by what they cost but finding most parts new or used is not hard at all.

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obviously not. I shall sell it immediately and kick my own *** for the next 20 years. most of them I'd agree. I'm sure there is a part here and there that isn't. who would have though that a bosch distributor cap would be back ordered for 10 months?

If you were going 964 route, avoid the C4's at all cost!!! They can be nightmares from what I have read. If something(s) doesn't work properly, the car will not even move. 996 pros IMO: Looks, performance (all the way around), A/C/heat, ease of maintenance, nicer interior 'look', 6-speed trans, aerodynamics, brakes to name a few 996 cons IMO: Cheaper interior pieces, M96 engine has its faults either minor or major, lost 'tank' build quality, mass produced, hard to super/turbocharge over a certain PSI (too much static compression), mods to engine don't make a lot of HP, plastic used on engine a lot, trans 2nd gear popping out of to name a few 964 pros IMO: Engine sound, 'tank' build quality, pedals on the floor, lots of metal instead of plastic, the dash - tough build and simplistic, bullet-proof transmission, really solid, maybe even bullet-proof motor, hand-built cars to name a few 964 cons IMO: Ancient interior looks, less performance all the way around, the bastard child between the 911 and 993, I think they may be heavier but could be wrong, oldest of the 2 choices to name a few

To the boxster idea: I've never considered the boxster as a true Porsche, always seemed like a yuppie kind of ride maybe I was informed though, but either way I hate convertibles.

What do your parents say regarding purchase of a Porsche? Have you checked insurance premium rates? Have you figured what it will cost to license? And pay sales and property tax? How much will it cost to license the second year of ownership? Will it be parked in a garage? Will you be able to buy tires when needed at close to or over $1000.00/ set Are you mechanically inclined? Can you change plugs, oil, filter, brake pads, discs? Are you able to diagnose electrical problems and CEL related issues? They are frequent with these cars. A minor service at a dealer can cost hundreds of dollars, are you prepared? Do you have a job so you can support and maintain a $100k car? (My '99 Cab was just over $100k out the door) I'm interested mainly in the first question.

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1. yes, that will be painful 2. Cost to license? If you mean register, thats $70 per year. Sales tax is a one time thing, there is no property tax. 3. Cost to register the 2nd year will be $70, just like the first. 4. A set of Sumitomo HTR ZIIIs are quite a bit cheaper.

Tippy: You have no idea and would love to read what you have read on C4's on the 964. From owning one and doing a bunch of research I have never read any negaitives except possible more maint costs. Have not faced that yet because had my whole brake and awd system fluid changed and that is it. Look around the only issue I have ever seen or read here on a c4 is because the mechanic misinstalled a part, but nothing from the car or parts itself. does the c4 drive differently yes some say better others say worse but that is personal.

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LOL

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The 964 AWD system is nicknamed "Sputnik," and not because it will take you into orbit. It is unbelievably complex and very expensive to repair. As these cars get older and transfer through multiple owners the chances of a painful adventure increases. Which is not to say that there are not potential painful adventures with the 996... or really any out of warranty Porsche for that matter. The bottom line here for both models is proper and regular maintenance - in particular fluid changes. For any 964 (particularly a C4), at minimum a 16 year old car, detailed and complete records are a must.

I would (and did!) go with a 996 myself, but it always bugs me when I see Porsche owners trying to talk other enthusiasts out of becoming Porsche owners. Yeah, yeah, you're "looking out for them", but the way it comes across to me is that many people like to decide if someone is "worthy" of owning the car.

Interesting dilemma. I'm facing the exact same choice since the 964 and early 996s are basically the same price in the current market. I've driven a 996 and 3.2 Carrera which I presume is fairly close to a 964 and really enjoy both. Ironically the friend with the Carerra 3.2 is making the same consideration for his next Porsche. I do almost all my own wrenching and the 964 seems like a car that will require more frequent attention, valve adjustments, etc., but engine access looks easier to work on. The 996 will be generally more reliable, but damn, that engine bay looks like mother if you ever need to do anything on it. Also, I have no issues with vintage cars as DDs. My current daily is an '84 928S. There's somethng really fun about hopping into a time machine each day so whatever. I've never cared much about modern refinement. Let us know how your decision goes.

SCs are sweeeet!!

I agree!

I owned a 1991 C4 964...and drove it from new to 80,000 miles LOVED IT! and its still my favorite body style (old style headlights etc) I now have a 2004 996 and there is no compare for a DD. Here in Florida..reliable air conditioning is a must and the 964 is "ok" at best. Air cooled gets a tad warm in commuter traffic...and the 996 is hands down MUCH faster and responsive. Wish I still owned the 964, but wouldnt trade it for the 996! Good luck in your search!!

well ok so no c4 problems just expected because of age? so a great design can't be just that a great design. dood they have problems maybe, but i would say no more then and pcar. I am not disputing a 996 vs 964. I chose the 964 even though the 996 is cheaper but for personal reasons like looks, air cooled and the known problems of the 996. I just hate when people spew info with nothing to back it up.

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Anybody who can afford the insurance, purchase price, repairs, and gas for the car can own it. the question is whether a 17 year old can (or should) do so. I think its just guys with experience relaying how quickly you can be in a world of hurt financially with one of these things, especially as a daily

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You may be right but you also argued that a C4 can hang with a C2. How can more parasitic drag plus 300 more lbs be equal? Anyways, if I am wrong, sorry about spreading the misinformation. But, what I have read is if a simple sensor goes out, the car goes nowhere. If one part of driveline is not functioning correctly, the car goes nowhere. If this is wrong, well than the people who had said this was wrong and I apologize for spreading myths.......

Never stated that a c4 can "hang" with a c2 even though all the real world data shows that it can and actually beat the c2. motorweek test had the c4 at 4.5 seconds 0-60 (check it out on youtube) you have to remember more grip etc, but I think in the hands of a good driver you will see very little difference. Now to your question about the car going nowhere i guess depends on what is wrong. Sensors will not stop the car etc. drive shaft broken would either car or any car for that matter.

The 996 C2 has always proven much easier to work on than I'd have imagined. It looks slightly intimidating if you're not used to working on one, but large assemblies (like the air box) come out with very little fuss and access is not really limited. A few things are improved a bit on the MK2 car but coming from a 964 both would feel like stout rocketships without soul or "engine noise". You decide if that's good or bad. I often enjoy the experience of driving a more raw car for short periods of time (though not in the case of a stock 964 vs. 996).