Is my 911 toast?

Hello all I purchased a 2002 cab with 33k on the clock two years ago. I had the IMS and Clutch changed when I bought it. It has ran great since and two oil analysis have come back with good reports. Outside of the changing the window regulator to fix a rattle and ignition switch as it was starting to go, it�s been a good car and I�ve added 12k to the mileage. After doing the bearing and clutch I was clearly upside down in the car but it didn�t matter to as intended to keep it and drive the crap out of it.( even bought one purposely that was not perfect body wise so I could drive the hell out of it without worrying). I had the oil changed prior to winter storage then took it out one more day. The temperature dropped to the 20s that night and while driving it a warring light slow flashed. I pulled over and checked the reservoir wasn�t empty. Drove it home and it seemed to flash intermittently. At home it seemed maybe a touch low so I added a bit of distilled water to overflow and put it up for winter. We had a insane cold week here where temps were sub zero and my second garage is not heated. A few weeks later I went to start 911 and it would not fire. just cranked over I checked volts on battery, could hear the fuel pump prime, so I figured it had to a spark issue and maybe the computer was cold so waited a few weeks to let it warm up more. Went to start it after a few weeks and on second crank if fired but didn�t start, a couple more cranks and it started to fire more each time. About the 6th crank it started it ran rough and I heard a loud bang then white smoke out of driver side tail pipe. Heavy antifreeze smell and I�m loosing coolant at fast rate( it�s not the Aos) So I�ve blown the head or gasket or the cylinder is cracked. My question is what are my options? Rebuilds are 30k used 15k plus any engine swap seems to run 20+all of which make no sense on a 996 cab based on the current values. I do not have the knowledge to rebuild it myself or I would. Can the head alone be replaced? Can I save this car for a reasonable amount or should I just accept that is a 30+ boat anchor worth 3GS I am not the normal 911 buyer so I can�t just buy another one. I also have owned a lot of older muscle cars as well as modern ones and I�ve never �loved� the driving experience like I do this car, it is simply everything I wanted it to be. The old line about never meeting your hero�s ( sat inside a european spec 72s at 14) did not happen to me. I do not want to loose this car. Chuck

When you saw warning light flashing, I'm assuming the temp gauge, did you notice if the temperature exceeded 180 degrees? Have you found where the coolant leak is? Have you checked the oil to see if antifreeze is mixed in? If so, you need to drain it.

I don’t think it overheated. I would have shut it down and waited on side of road. it was just the slow flash And I assumed it was the expansion tank or cap. I did get a bring to mechanic light after the bang. I have not checked the oil yet. There is no leaking under the car or in engine bay.

I suspect a series of events. It being an 02 with the early m96/03 engine, they are known for the exhaust valve seats dropping out of the head when they get overheated...I suspect the low coolant slow flash was a warning coolant was being lost, and that could produce some "air pockets" inside the engine and localized over-heating that loosened the exhaust valve seats..The loud bang was when the valve seat fell and stuck the exhaust valve open and hit the piston, this usually breaks the piston and cylinder wall and hence the white smoke and coolant out the exhaust... This is just speculation/conjecture based on the description and prior knowledge of similar events, but my gut says the engine is toast ....sorry.

Thank you all. It is what I expected. Am I correct on the numbers as far as replacing the engine? No option under 10k or so? If I am I either need to figure how to get a 997 or buy another 996 same color and strip everything off mine as extra parts. Thanks for help Chuck

I think $10K would get you a donor motor that probably needs another few $K put into it at minimum, up to a total rebuild. I'd suggest a new shortblock from Porsche but from the sounds of it you'd still need to source a cylinder head as well. That route might be the least costly for a reliable replacement, but you're still going to be in the $20K range. Lots of guesswork in those numbers by the way!

If there�s a used engine for sale, you could swap it out, but the used engine needs to be good, or else it�s like $10k gone. I really think, though, before you do anything, you want a mechanic to diagnose or tear down the motor to see exactly what�s needed. That�s going to cost up to a grand or two, but you really do need to know what�s wrong with it before you decide on anything major.

I actually towed it to a local mechanic here to look at in the am, he called and he informed me that yes I have coolant in the cylinder( Umm I knew that). I asked how much would you charge me to pull the engine and the head? I figured 1200,1500 I’d do it. He then said I don’t work on internal water cooled. Might have mentioned that on the phone and saved me two tow fees. I would gladly pay someone to pull the engine and see if I could get for that money. I’m west Chicago Sub I agree that it is likely that there is damage to cylinder but if not a new heads 4000.+ labor and I’d spend that. Chuck

If you lived closer, I would do it. I did it for someone else on this board a couple years ago. He ended up with 2 cracked cylinders.

Is it a 3.4 or 3.6l motor? I have 3.4l heads i would sell at core pricing if u need them.

Thank you for the offer. However it is the 3.6

Please help me understand how the engine overheated if the OP just went to start up and it didnt? My 04 had a low reservoir below the min mark for a while. I didnt realize it until after 4 months of prob dirving around like that. I ended up putting distilled water to bring it up above min. When it was hot and driven it went a tad over the max mark for a day or two. Now its back below the min mark when cold, when hot and driving around good...Its above the min mark. I have placed close attention and checking to see if it drains more and it hasnt. I smell no coolant or see any leaks. I have never gotten any lights on low, I have gotten the dreaded engine failure light though, I realize my sensor is failing and its prone to do this when failing My indy wrench will be doing a oil change soon and I was planning on him having a better look at it. Me being at 72k miles I know the waterpump and lines will need to be checked and changed out for issues and a flush as well.

You may have missed it in the post but I drove the car the night before I stored it. That is when the slow flash came on. It could have over heated during that drive but I do believe I would have noticed. It was still in normal operating range when light first flashed. I believe the air pocket scenario to be the most probable based on the sound I heard.

Quotes source post: 19350617

Chuck, sorry to hear about the 996. I am also in the western subs as well. Feel free to pm if you need some ideas on indys. Glenn

LN Engineering is in Illinois , contact them for guidance . They have the expertise to provide solid options .

The tow driver dropped it back off yesterday and I had to start it to move it back the garage. It ran a bit choppy but didn�t seem terrible, sounded like a rough idle. if I had damage in the cylinder itself wouldn�t it have started to implode pretty quickly? I�ve had a piston go before and as soon as they go they go all the way. Really wondering how much damage is done. GC996 pm sent for Indy�s

Not sure, but good luck!

Not being there and not really knowing what is going on with the motor but i sure as $hit would not started it. This is why they make wheel dollies. Good luck.

A member here recommended a local who I�m bringing it to. They are going to bore scope it to see what kind of damage there is. A big thank you to Glenn. Stay tuned.. Chuck

It�s back from the inspection and it has a cracked block. Not sure what I�m doing at this point but a replacement engine seems a waste of money.

Quotes source post: 19379475

Sorry to hear that. However, the money is already gone. Where is the crack? Like Glenn, I�m also in the West Chicago sub area. PM if you need anything� I would take your time and look for a used engine (which is rolling the dice, but you can mitigate risk with the right steps there), or else, spring for a rebuild. If you really love the car, spending $25k on the engine might be a wash if you keep it for the next 10 years. A 45k-mile car is going to be rare.

Chuck, very sorry to hear the news. There is one more option besides a swap and rebuild, which is the factory short block. A couple of the guys went in this direction which may make sense.

Hello and thanks for all the commiserations. Here is the pic and video. Number 4. I have looked into the short block but at this point I�m unsure of more damage. I have a nephew who is the buyer of scrap catalytic converter�s and the other metals. He�s buys from about 300 or so junkyards on a monthly basis in the Midwest between 50 to 100k at every stop. ( I�m in the wrong business). So the yards are happy to see him. He has the word out already so I may take the summer and see what pops up. If we can find a low mileage 996 he should get it well under market value to make a swap worth it. If it was a coupe I�d likely buy a FSI or such and spend the 25/30 and drive it for the rest of my life and still be happy as it�s such a low mileage car. I would get my moneys worth with every mile. However the complexity of a convertible top as it ages does give me some concerns. I�d be okay up to 15/18 all in for a solid newish / rebuilt engine but more than that I�d buy a color I want and coupe. I think I�m going to look for another running 996 in same color scheme over the summer and strip mine for extra parts or a 997 in a price I�m comfortable with. And if a wrecked one pops up while I search over the summer for a replacement car I can still swap the engine. A local dealer I�ve purchased from prior to this, has a 08 black over tan 43k on clock, if it had a manual I�d be setting a bore and PPI up. Thanks all and I will return to the forum when I�m driving a proper car.

Is the crack in the liner? I hope your nephew is able to get you a cheap block that you can make sure is healthy, do some preventative maintenance on and swap in at minimal cost.

Sounds like you have time on your side, which is the main key. Good luck! Post a wanted AD on RL as well.

Is that a cracked cylinder wall? Is it a pic they took during borescoping? Other folks on here will definitely know better than me but I believe that the cylinder heads could be undamaged. If so that would mean a factory shortblock is a viable alternative to get the car back on the road.

Thank you for the suggestion on the short block. Great minds thing alike as they say. That was my first question when they called and said It was a crack int the cylinder. Too much damage per the shop manager. Chuck.

I like the short block option. You have the chance from day one to perform all of the proper service and procedures we learned over the pat 20+ years. The engine can last a good long time. Rebuild makes sense if you want to enhance the internals and power output, but it costs quite a bit of cash. Swap is the cheapest option but certainly a roll of the dice. Hope you come to a good solution that works for you.

I came across a company out of FLA and NJ who rebuilds 996 engines. MB Motorsports. They have a rebuild for 14k which should get me back running for a price I can live with after paying someone to swap it for me. Has anyone had any experience with them? Chuck

I would google "Porsche 996 engine rebuild options" and various derivations. You will find countless 996 Rennlist threads on the topic with hearty discussions. What you will find is that you get what you pay for. Be very careful who you hand your engine over too for a rebuild. After a weekend of reading all the threads on Rennlist, you will have a pretty good understanding of the different paths you can take (swap, short block, rebuild), costs and the firm to use or steer clear of. Add: FWIW, here is the exercise I would go thru if I was in your shoes as a guy who is not a DIYer. I have thought about it hundreds of times over the years as a "what-if" exercise. 1. Swap: Cheapest option. You know the cost is comprised of finding/buying a quality used engine and the labor in swapping it into the car. We have plenty of Porsche indy shops here in Chicagoland that can successfully do it. I would call them all up and explain the situation and get an estimate on what they would charge to swap an engine. They may also be able to source one for you for a reasonable price. 2. Short Block: we are loaded with Porsche Dealerships in IL. I would call all of them up and get a price on what a short block would cost and what they would charge to get it installed. I would do the same with every Porsche Indy locally since they can all get a short block and do the install. 3. Rebuild: there are two reputable leaders around the globe recognized for m96 engine rebuilds. LN/FSI in IL/GA and Hartech in UK/OK. Both these firms have a laundry list of rebuild options that will cost you between $30-40k when everything is said and done. But, if you have a great Porsche Indy that can do the rebuild, they can source the parts from LN or Hartech and possibly cost you less than you going direct to LN or Hartech. But you better make sure they know what they are doing. Bottom line: Plenty of options at difference price points. But at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. As such, if someone is quoting you a rebuild price "all in" that is half the going market price, I would wave a red flag and question it.

Quotes source post: 19383960

Ask them how they resleeve the blocks. You're going to need that, and there are several wrong (but cheap) ways to do it.

Quotes source post: 19383960

Unless I'm mistaken, MB Motorsports is ran by Martin Biernacki and his wife Agnes. Their only location is in Port St. Lucie, FL. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a good reputation here on RL and was eventually banned by IB.

A recent Rennlist encounter , I would pass based on this link and others . https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...a-warning.html

Thanks all I don�t even need to read the links. I was skeptical due to the price. I come from the things cost what they cost for a reason view of life. If everyone else charges a 1000 and they charge 400, there�s a reason why and it�s probably not a good one. I am trying to source a engine without buying a new one or 100k mile used one. Seems to be all I�m finding. The FSI looks amazing but pricey for my car. L/N same 30k before install. The guys at Eurosport who did the bore scope told me not to bother with the short block. Heck of nice place and people. If I end buying another car I will have them do the PPI and scope. Can�t say enough about them I have more calls to make it seems.

Yeah, Eurosport knows exactly what they are doing with an M9X engine. They support a large group of PCA club racers, DE guys and street guys with the engine. They have kept me out of trouble for over 2 decades with mine. Be there on Wed to get the car set up for track season and to replace my water pump.

Sorry to hear that the shortblock is out. Did they tell you why? What is the damage on the top end?

Quotes source post: 19384654

I love and trust Eurosport too, but they are people with opinions just like anybody else. They told me I absolutely need to replace my double-row IMSB, because those fail all the time, just as much as single row bearings. I appreciated their take, and they are certainly experts, but I decided not to follow their advice. In any event, the short block is still a decent option. There was a time when those were like $6-$7k a few years ago, partially because they were on sale due to Porsche offering discounts on vintage car parts. Maybe you get lucky and call around and see if you can find one for a low cost.

I doubt Brian has an issue with the short block. It's a billable hours issue. Still got to bolt all the parts on the engine. $8500+ for the short block, probably another $12k+ for labor and the inevitable parts that need to be replaced. Now you are over $20k. A very good deal versus $30-40k for a rebuild. And an even better deal if you can DIY. But from a cost perspective assuming you can find a good engine with all the parts attached in good working order, you may be able to get away with $12k hole in your pocket. But that's a big assumption that parts are in good shape. For sure, the DIY guy will save quite a bit.

I have an MB engine the PO installed after an IMS bearing failure. It as been fine for 8 years and 40,000 km.

What about the Audi 2.7? twin turbo plug in option that has been posted here several times. Is that a viable option? I�m keeping this in the back of my mind if I ever need to consider a replacement. OP - sorry for your situation.

One option: Go to IAAI and buy a car wreaked in the front. Take the engine (some have video of them running) sell the salvageable bits of the car, maybe break even. Other options: If you are patient and look hard you can occasionally find motors that were removed for all sorts of reasons, and some that may be 'less' broken then yours. Take the two and make one good one. Do all the "While you are in there" tasks. I have had 996's, and every one of them arrived at my house on a trailer because they were broken. FInd an honest independent mechanic for the jobs you cannot do yourself. Good luck!

Has anybody ever called Chavis Performance? They do LS swaps for 996s, and I always wondered if some of those M96s that are removed are just fine.

This is a good thread to revisit the topic of engine options for the DIY guy and the non-DIY guy as it pertains to objectives and costs. Costs may be going up, but the options are available. No right or wrong answer. It all depends on what the owner is trying to accomplish. 1. Swap 2. Short Block 3. Rebuild

Good news With the help of a great forum member I have located a shop who will replace the short block for a good price. Car will be dropped off in three weeks. So No it�s not toast. 😎

Quotes source post: 19408156

You mean ... you bought a brand new short block from Porsche and this shop is going to remove your old engine, swap the heads over, put it back in the car, and start it up, for a reasonable labor charge?

Quotes source post: 19386877

The general rule with swaps is that they are incredibly hard to pull off reliably, with OEM-like functionality. I've spent a lot of time on the GT86/FRS/BRZ forums (I have one of these), and reading through the swaps sections, though LS swap kits exist and you can do a bare-bones swap for 10k all-in, a proper, OEM-like swap is a lot closer to 40-50k + months of downtime. There's a reason swaps are so rare .

Quotes source post: 19408191

Yes, In my exuberance at hearing the news, while at work I dashed off a quick post to inform the forum members who have been incredibly helpful, know that my 911 is going to be repaired. Thanks for the translation. The quote was low enough that I will have the shop replace a few wear and tear items while the engine is out and I can still justify the investment in the car. Thanks to all the helpful members who offered their advice. Seriously, thanks all for helping save this car. I am super happy. Chuck

Quotes source post: 19408295

So, what�s the quote they provided? Good luck with it.

Sorry, Just slightly over 15k. I’ll have the head reconditioned and water pump swapped at same time. A few other things as well. Neighborhood of 18 or so by the time I’m done. I’m deeper in money wise than what I should be but I know the car by now, it still low mileage and I like the car. I try to drive each car I own about between a 1000 to 5000 miles a year. No reason I can’t keep this 10 more years at the minimum.

Quotes source post: 19408381

Thats awesome. If it makes feel better, you can spend $35k, or even $60k if you had an air-cooled car for a comprehensive rebuild and a bit more power. But these cars are fast and fun enough with the stock power. And you could easily lose $20k in just a few years if you bought a new minivan and drove it. Nice job being resourceful. I�m sure the short block route is going to work if done right. Like painting, 95% is proper prep work and decades of a mechanic�s experience in learning from mistakes. After all, it�s all quite simple.

Thanks Mike I am very hopeful and happy that it can be back on the road. The repair place is Fischer in lake Barrington. I was very impressed with Rick over the phone. I’m sure it will turn out great. The only downside I see was I started to look at cars for sale and I found I love the 2009 macadamia Metallic color. I’d be surprised if that or a air cooled wasn’t next to it within a year. I was replying at work yesterday so if my answer seem off I apologize. I was busier than the one legged man at the contest. Chuck

Quotes source post: 19409566

Oh, yeah, I know Rick. He�s great, you are in good hands.

A picture is worth a 1,000 words or in this case just over 18,000 Thanks to all for the help..Glen I owe you a drink or three. Felt great to have it back on the road

Congrats Chuck! With what we know know about procedures, service and solutions, you have quite a few more decades of enjoyment with yiur new short block!

Quotes source post: 19508457

That was fast! Nice!

2 months and $18k to be back on the road with a new short block....Good job on saving your 996 from a catastrophic failure...