New (to me) 40th AE with the "wrong" engine

"wrong" engine Edit: sorry for the incomplete typo title. Fat fingers and I accidentally hotkeyed "post" before finishing. Anyways, here is the question: Just picked up this 40 Jahre Anniversary Edition #533 and have realized it's got the wrong engine in it. By all signs, it does NOT have the X51 engine that it's supposed to. I am bummed as this wasn't noted on the PPI I paid for and in my excitement to have the car, I obviously missed this expensive detail. However, I did still get the car for a good price and now that I'm coming to terms with this discovery, mostly want to know what could have happened and if there's any way I can source an appropriate X51. As you can see from the photos, the car has the appropriate badging and the interior is definitely correct with the perforated leather. Engine serial looks like M96/0366215260 with no S designation and the intake manifold is definitely the standard plastic, so I'm guessing someone must have swapped out the X51 at some point. According to the CarFax, the car bounced around Missouri through 2007 and then moved to Illinois in 2010 before being imported to BC, Canada in 2015 where the previous owner had it. I will be asking the previous owner if he knows anything about it, but my guess is he may not know much as he was a genuine person and had very limited tech knowledge when we discussed the sale. M96/0366215260 as far as I can tell

That's a real bummer !! I remember a customer that brought in his 30k miles 40th AE that he had just bought from his Cousin and the IMSB had catastrophically failed ( this was before the Class Action Lawsuit on the IMSB issue). I remember we quoted him a price to rebuild the X51 engine, then a price to replace with a factory reman, .. Then he wanted to find a used engine and wanted me to swap all the X51 parts over to the standard engine..so I quoted him to do it that......then he finally found a used X51 engine ( but still had the frail single row factory IMSB) so I upgraded the IMSB and installed his sourced used X51 engine and sent him on his way... A used X51 engine in good condition will be hard to find...Good luck !!

Can't you step back from the purchasing agreement due to it not being as advertised? Or does it have a clause along the lines of 'what you see is what you get'?

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I wonder this myself, do Canadien laws protect you in any way ? How was the car advertised ? - curious as to the current mileage #533 does have quite a history see the registry https://www.40jahre911.com/_files/ug...433d281bc0.pdf

How much did you pay for the car? I doubt you can put an X51 back in for under $15k incl. the sale of your engine. They are rare & expensive. I remember a post where someone had requested a quote for a replacement 3.4 and a replacement 3.4 X51. The former was about 15 grand, the latter around 30. Old news and not the right displacement but that should give you an idea of what to expect.

Back in the day at the dealer it was $15k to add the X51. Have no idea of what it would cost today or if it can be done. FVD did develop their own version of the X51 which is still available today. You would have to look at the price amd add in labor costs.

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I've owned the car for about a month already and also put a bunch of work into it through a local shop as it had a bunch of deferred maintenance. The car was never advertised - I connected with the seller through word of mouth as a friend of a friend heard he was thinking of selling. He thought the car was in perfect original condition but had also only done 6 oil changes in 9 years of ownership and had fairly limited knowledge of the car's technical details. We agreed on a purchase price prior to a PPI and when the PPI picked up on a coolant leak and cam solenoid oil leak we renegotiated. Disappointed that the shop didn't mention anything about the engine missing x51 features even though they clearly recognized it as a 40th AE. The car has just over 60k miles and I bought it for just under $32k USD after the dollar conversion. At that price and given how much I've enjoyed the car as is, I feel like keeping it until it needs an engine rebuild (light bore scoring on PPI without symptoms) and then upgrading to the x51 when the engine comes out ends up being a fair deal and saves the headache of trying to reverse things with the previous owner.

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That's great to know. I'll have to reach out to ask about cost and consider putting parts on order when it's my time to rebuild.

32k is a screaming deal. You will recoup. I�d say enjoy the car you have.

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^^^This The biggest challenge we all have is that we want and we want NOW. You have a great car. Take your time and figure out your next steps with it. Maybe you collect x51 parts over the next 5 - 10 years and then rebuild the entire engine. Maybe you just opt for a 4.0+ rebuild and no x51. Maybe you just drive it and enjoy it and worry about it later. At the end of the day, you can do what makes the most sense for you.

I am curious; did you reach out to the indy that performed the PPI and make them aware that the car doesn't have the correct X51 engine in it? And if so, what was their response? That's a big miss.

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No I haven't reached out. Definitely a big miss. They have a great reputation in the community here and did pick up a lot of issues with the condition of the car which helped me bargain down the price substantially, but their approach felt very cookie cutter and I wasn't really able to make specific requests with the PPI. I don't think I'm going to bother reaching out again as the car is mine anyways and I won't be going back to them for work after that experience.

This smells like lawsuit to me, but then again you say it has signs of bore scoring? Why buy it at all?

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My understanding is that almost all M96s will have bore scoring on borescope at this point, unless they are extremely low mileage, simply due to the construction properties of the engine (Lokasil cylinder sleeve, asymmetric piston design with thrust-side friction point). The scoring that was seen is very light (images reviewed by two independent Porsche indys) and the car has no symptoms/signs (no sooty tail pipes, ticking, smoke on start-up; oil consumption and UOA TBD). With light asymptomatic bore scoring, I'm hoping the engine will run just fine with proper oil changes for at least 5-10 years before any critical symptoms develop (I will probably average 2k miles per year max as I cycle for daily commuting and most community access and this is a second car), at which point it will need a rebuild, just as all engines do with enough age/running. This is a 20 year old car - I didn't buy it expecting it to run like new, nor was it priced that way. Knowing the history/flaws of the M96, I budgeted for this purchase with a rebuild in mind, so I still feel pretty good about my purchase despite some issues.

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Explain how that would work?

Can you post pictures of your cylinders? Based on what you describe, my guess is it's probably nothing to worry about and not "actual" bore scoring. I would still call the shop that did the PPI and let them know about their mistake. See how they react. Best case scenario, you'll get some money back, worst case scenario you'll get a flat "no" from a company you have no intention of doing business with anyway. Also, when the time comes, my bet is it'll be far cheaper (read: still eye-wateringly expensive) to build your engine into a 3.8 or 4.0L than trying to bring the motor to X51 spec. Get the aluminum intake manifold if you like the looks of it an fancy some originality on the rebuilt motor.

Congrats on the car but sorry to hear about the engine. If it's true what you say about the owner, and it might be as I've come across some that are very oblivious to the finer details of these cars, I hope that the shop can take some responsibility here. It seems like you still like the car and have already invested some money into it and I can't imagine going back on the purchase and that investment can be done easily. I was in a somewhat similar situation where my engine ended up being a partial X51 but the shop I worked with was very good about pointing that out and it was something I used in negotiating. IMHO, the shop should really do you a solid and provide a level of discount provided you still want to work with them. In the end you could have potentially negotiated a lower price and are at a "loss" financially. Working with Brandon from Slakker I had an option to upgrade back to X51 heads (he had a set on his shelves) for a complete X51 package but chose to skip the option. Based on his experience, they would have provided about a 2% benefit in power and for me, I didn't find the cost/benefit worthwhile. Driving around now with the 4.1L, not a mile goes by where I wish I had the heads. Beyond happy with the outcome. Not all bore scoring is equal too. If you don't have any symptoms, you can probably drive the car for quite some time and save for the eventual rebuild. While some folks had really bad scoring with symptoms like constant misfires, large oil consumption, piston slap and loss of power, many have driven their cars for years before the rebuild actually happened. Drive the car and change the oil often. PM me if you want to chat more.

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I have no idea why the shop couldn't bother setting the date on their scope correctly. These are from May 2024. Images are from bank 2 cylinders, scoped through the spark plug holes (another PPI grievance - I had specifically requested through the sump but when I got a call to update me on the PPI progress, they told me they had already gone through the spark plug holes and didn't want to go again through the sump).

This is NOT bad scoring at all but the fact that the shop couldn't follow your directions would have me concerned. Typically a shop would charge more labor for a scope through the sump than via spark plug hole so hope you didn't pay a premium for that service only to not receive it.

Thanks, I appreciate your suggestions and insight! I've read through your 40th AE thread which has been really helpful as well. I may end up reaching out when the time comes. For now, as you suggested, I plan on frequent oil changes and driving the snot out of the car.

Anecdotal stuff: In the past, I've had a Lexus dealership do an out-of-town PPI for me on a newer LS 460 and miss some very obvious stuff (literal cuts in the driver and passenger seatbelts which to this day go unexplained) and granted me a refund when I made a stink about it. I passed on buying the car, BTW. On another Lexus purchase (super clean 80K mile LS 430 for $8K), during the test drive I was so busy listening for engine, transmission, or suspension sounds, that I never turned on the Mark Levinson stereo. After the purchase, I turn on the stereo to listen to tunes on the way home to find all of the big speakers and sub were blown. I later found out that the Mark Levinson amp was blown, too. I gave the seller an earful and he mailed me a check for $1,000 to offset the expense of replacing all of the above with OEM speakers and amp (about $1,500). So, OP, you may be able to press both the shop and seller to recoup some funds.

Oh, and @connect_yvr, if you have new ownership paperwork with your name on it, you should be able to go down to the dealership and ask for a list of all warranty work that's been done on the car in the past. Maybe the engine mystery can be cleared up there.

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Thankfully, they did not charge anything extra. They seemed to have a very "cookie cutter" methodology to things and did not really listen to any requests I had. They have an "a la carte" menu for common services including PPI and seemed to have followed their usual PPI protocol.

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That's a great idea - I may try doing that to see if I can learn a bit more. This car's been around the block a few times so it would be interesting to know.

Well it would seem most people are congratulating you, politely i would suggest you have a bit of a quandary here, the potential investment value of an all original 40AE is significant, for you that is now void. Your car will never be worth more than a regular well specced 996,,, also you have a lower powered engine, and on these 996's extra power is expensive... if you love the car that's great... but i would be asking for some compensation.. its likely the PPI was only a few hundred to pay for, but a full refund is in order, its great that the previous owner was a "Nice Guy" but the car was either purposely or inadvertently mis-represented to you... you will never get full value for that car moving forward... if it becomes a family heirloom and you keep it long term that's great but at some point there will be a change in ownership .. I would be providing the documentation and asking that previous owner to come to the table to discuss this, a refund of 5 grand would not be out of order in my considered opinion. Of course you might also be a nice guy and just decide to move on and accept things as they are, that is your choice and by all means enjoy your car i'm sure its bringing you great joy...

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That would have been a good price for a standard 996.2 in good shape -- so instead of a screaming deal, you only got a great deal, on a car that is still special (even if it doesn't have the correct engine). As long as the car doesn't have any major issues, you should be very happy and enjoy it (in my opinion). You drove two examples if I recall correctly, so this shows the difference weight makes in a 996 even more so, since you now know this car has a non-X51 engine.

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These are all good points, particularly about the PPI. I've definitely lost out on a bit of cash in this transaction and have considered my options. I may still go back to the shop that did the PPI and confront them about it, but at the end of the day the cost of the PPI relative to the purchase value and long term expected cost is pretty negligible. This is essentially how I feel. I love the way the car drives as is and plan to keep it hopefully for most of my life (20+ years). Over that time horizon an engine rebuild would be in order for almost any car this old. By the time I need it to change hands, I suspect the original engine issue will be much less of a concern than the quality of the rebuild. At this point I'm just trying to solve the mystery of why and when the engine was swapped. Ted from the 40th registry has been helpful with some leads so hopefully I'll be able to tell the full story when the next buyer comes around.

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Most shops that conduct PPI are not certified Porsche appraisers. They only inspect what they see, nothing more nothing less. If you hired Nathan Merz, I'd understand your beef, but the shop did their job to the best of their abilities. The mistake that was made was when you inquired about the car, you should have requested the engine serial number to research. That would be have been a big red flag when you found out that it was just a run-of-the-mill M96.03. Based on the picture you posted, it looks like it's NOT a factory reman either which probably means an independent shop did the swap. Wonder what shop that was? If you can identify the shop in question, then they may still have the old engine, X51 parts, or know where it ended up. I assume you've ran an AutoCheck in addition to the Carfax That's where I'd start. Good luck!

The engine number M96/0366215260 translates to... M96/03 = 3.6L motor 6 = 6 Cylinders 6 = Natural Aspirating Motor 2 = date of manufacture = 2002 15260 = actual serial number

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That's great info. Thanks!