IMS retrofit problem

Hi everybody, I'm bringing my car to life and I think I screwed up something. Some more pictures.... http://www.soloporsche.com/showthread.php?t=29789 As part of the repair I planned to do a IMS retrofit job. I took off the IMS flange to send pictures (not pull the bearing yet) to LN and discover which kind of bearing I had. Now I know the bearing I have (single row) and I already order the kit from LN but my problem is that I didn't set the engine to TDC and I didn't get off the tensioners. My question is how do I have to proceed before I make it worse. I have the engine out of the car. Can I set the engine to the TDC now? Can I get off the tensioners(I'm also planing to change)? Do you know if the cam can be out of time? I'm also planing to change the cam's pads for a new ones. Does it make any difference? I already read this other threat(link under) but I want to be sure after all the work I'm having that all the steps I follow are the right ones with this "little frog with no hat" https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...hain-help.html I would appreciate any kind of help. Thanks...

I think, if you have not turned the engine since you pulled the flange. Chances are the timing has not jumped yet. If you loosen the 1-3 chain adjuster some, you might be able to get the flange back on. You might also need to loosen the crank to IMS adjuster. Once you get the flange back, pull the spark plugs (so there is no compression and you can tell if the pistons and valves are making contact) and slowly turn the engine to TDC and verify with the marks on the cam ends. Rick 99 996C4 87 944S

This is one for jake. I was told that if you pulled the flang with out doing the TDC and removing the tensioners you screw your valve timeing. If so, nothing you cant fix with some more special tools. No worries. All you did was add a few hours to the job and a few hundred on some tools. I wouldnt touch it till jake has his input. Can you wrestle the plate back on?

I haven't turned the engine at all. I have just get off the flange to take some pictures and send them to LN. I can't put back the plate because now the bearing is not centered. I suppose it is because I didn't remove the tensioners. Thanks in advance everybody.

I wouldnt touch it till i talked to Jake. But I dont think it is going to be an answer you want to hear. I am 95% sure you are going to have to re-time your cams. And to do that, you will also have to follow directions and you are not scoring too high in that class... (just some friendly ball busting )

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Shark Attack, Stop bustin ***** and get back to shoveling snow!

Someone obviously did not pay attention and got hasty. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS and now you have created more work and complication for yourself. If that bearing came from my company, call [phone removed] and provide us with the bearing serial number. I will then (personally) provide added support if we sold you the bearing. If the bearing came directly from LN, call Charles and he will provide some support. We support only what we sell and what is serialized. The bearing you have is a single row, what bearing did you order? The FIRST thing that is done is the engine is locked at TDC #1, the second thing that is to be done is removal of the tensioners. If this is not done correctly the job just became a lot more difficult and special tools will be necessary to reset the camshaft timing. At this point the cam timing has already been compromised, re-installiing the flange will not be possible and even if it were the valve timing is already in question. If this bearing did come from us, I will be not very happy that it was posted here before we received a support email/ phone call. This isn't a hard job at all, it does require procedure.

Wrong way to take that out. Now you get to learn more things about cam chains, but hey, might be a great time to go ahead and replace the guide rails. Jake, if I read it right, he planned to order the bearing and was unsure which to order, so he took it apart to have a look.

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So bearing was ordered from LN. However, flange was pulled before he received retrofit bearing and instructions. Looks like you're off the hook on this one Jake! Phil

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You irritate me. Your attitute is horrible. You are going to a lot better if you become a team player. Lose your attitude of "if there isnt anything in it for me , **** you"

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His attitude is getting in the way of seeing the potential of gaining a paying customer. Ed, IIRC he didnt have to take the plate off to know. The single row plate is deeper.

WTH? He wasn't blaming anyone, but himself. Talk about getting hasty. My mech is pricing the IMS retrofit for me right now. I'll suggest going directly to LN if this is the kind of support he'll get with Jake.

I know, but "deeper" only works when you have something to compare to...if the OP had read before removing it would be clear - your post stated several times to NOT DO THAT.... I agree that Jake's position is what it is, and trust me in the last 2 years that is not the roughest statement he has made, but when the water calms down, he still a pretty good guy, just gets irritated by what he considers "stupidity" IMO

Jake, if your sole purpose on Rennlist is to provide only help for your customers than I suggest you buy a sponsorship, I have felt you provide good info here and I am certain that you have gained customers from this community, an attitude is not the way to "give back" Mistakes happen, people come and look for advice, This is the purpose of a tech forum! Best, Marc

No, you guys have it all wrong!! I WANT to support this procedure and ensure it is done correctly, which is why I just finished shooting a very extensive DVD on the topic. On this forum there has only been one other person do this work and post about it and that was Kyle and he did a great job, but at the present time there is not enough knowledge and experience on a board like this to support a procedure as critical as this. One day their will be, but not yet. There is nothing worse for a critical install like this than mis-information and thats what I am trying to avoid. I wasn't getting hasty, I wanted him to understand that before he goes any further and damages something he should gain support from us or from LN. I do get irritated when people make mistakes that could be avoided, but with this procedure there is no "stupid question" and I answer all of them with enthusiasm because I WANT to help and we must make every bearing install a success. FYI- We sold a bearing to someone with the same location a couple of weeks ago and he used the same soloporsche forums, so thats why I assumed that he was the purchaser of that bearing, but I was not and still am not sure. I do receive calls from those who purchased the bearing directly from LN, and LN tells every customer that they do not offer extensive support, they refer those who want/ need extensive support directly to us as we helped develop the procedure and have done more than any other facility. I'll help anyone, as long as they don't demand it- no matter where it was purchased from.. I can't stress enough how much procedure is important during this retrofit, Kyle knows that but even he had some questions that I helped him with.. Most everyone does and should, at least until the DVD is finally edited. Goof this up and you can waste an engine, thats just the cold, hard facts and they must be stated bluntly to be taken seriously.

Yah pin the crank at TDC then with the cam plugs off lock them in with the special tools. Something lke that . It should be easier with the info sent you. Maybe Jake will make some special tools for locking the cams into postion through the cam plugs and also cam holders for when the valve covers are off

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nice statement

I never heard if TDC matters if you are on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke - and how to know, check or be sure.............

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Ok, so help the guy out. Becasue so far all I see in your below quote is blah blah blah blah, I dont see any help.... I think his questions are: 1. Am I fooked? 2. can I pull the tensioners and get the flang back on and be ok? 3. If I can wrestle the flange back on, will I be ok? 4. So if I am fooked, whats going to fix my **** up?

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I think Jake addressed all those questions pretty clearly in this post.

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For the record, LN was extremely supportive when mine was done. It may be that they don't support DIYers, or perhaps something has changed in the last few months, but I don't want to see them diminished because they don't happen to be on this board. Charles was great, both with me by email and with my indie by phone. In the interest of fairness.

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The only way I know for sure is to pull the cam plugs and check, Jake might know another way. But if you are only doing the IMS flange/upgrade it should not matter if 1 is TDC or 4 is TDC. Now if you are going to pull the cam covers off then to pull 1-3 cover, you must ensure its on 1 TDC so the cam is not pushing open valves, 4-6 will have valves open and lots of tension on the cams. Jake, I did the IMS bearing upgrade in December ( https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ance-105k.html ). It's not a hard task, the puller works great, the directions from LN are easy to follow. Rick 99 996C4 87 944S

The only time he'd be fooked is if the engine was ran with the cam timing incorrect.. Everything to that point is just a complication to have to overcome with more procedures and special timing tools. Kyle, his experience could be as straight forward as yours, but with the IMS displaced in the bore and the tensioners still in place; coupled to the engine being "on lobe" not pinned at TDC things became more difficult. The M96 has cylinders #1 and #4 in opposition. Both are at TDC at the same crank position, but one is at true TDC while the other is at TDC overlap (between the exhaust and intake strokes). The engine is designed in a way that when its at TDC all the cam lobes are placing no load on their drive chains. This is why its so important to be at this position when the IMS bearing flange is pulled as this is the only position where all the load is removed from the bearing/flange. This is why we have done the DVD, and it really is a damn good directive.

My perspective on whether his chains have slipped and effected the cam timing. Yes you are supposed to set the engine at TDC and take out the tensioners. But the most important aspect of dong this is to take tension off the IMS so it does not offset in the whole like his is now. For the chains to slip with the tensioners in is less likely than with them out. With tension of the paddles that moves with the tensioners (both the the IMS to Crank and the IMS to cams on bank 1-3) and the other chain guides in place there really isn't alot of slack in the chains, so they are unlikely to "Jump a Tooth." It is when the tensioners are removed that there is enough slack in the chains that the timing might change. The challenge for this owner is that the tensioners now have to be removed to take the tension of the IMS so it can be centered to get the bearing on, and the engine is not locked at TDC, so there might be more tension on the chains, particularly the chain to the cams on 1-3. My advice would be to very slowly and gently take the tensioners for the IMS to Crank and the IMS to 1-3 out so that this end of the IMS can move slightly. Then reinstall the original cap/flange. Reinstall the tensioners, move the engine to TDC for the 1-3 head, pop out the green cam cover plugs (at least the intake one on the trans end and the exhaust one on the rear), you need to the intake one out to confirm that the engine is at TDC for 1-3 and the exhaust cap to see if the cam is straight up and down with the narrow part of the slotted end out. Remember that with the tensioners not pressurized with oil the cam may appear to be slight off. If everything looks OK then follow the standard procedure to change the bearing, just being careful not to jump a tooth on the sprockets. I would also probably check/set the timing with a tool. This will also be required if the timing appears to have been effected. Goodl Luck!

Wow wow wow... First of all thanks for all the help. An now, let me clarify some points. - Yes I did it wrong. It's my fault. I only wanted to be sure to order the right bearing. -Of course I already order(tuesday) the bearing from LN (invoice number 4412)if it wasn't true I wouldn't mention it at all. -I think that forums like this, basecally are made to share information and help each other. And this is what I try to do. Sharing my "stupidity" in order to help someone else in the next future. Now, if it is possible and someone can help me out I would appreciate very much. My engine is out of the car so it is easy to work with it. The problem is that I'm not familiar with porsche's engines but I'm use to work with audis and vw. I hope you can give me some steps to follow. Thanks in advance, Carles -

Carles - Do yu have a set of Service Manuals or CD's?

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Hi Dharn55, I see that you always helping many people. I read many of your answers. Thanks to try to help me. Yes I do have the workshop manual for my model (996 mki cabrio 3.4)

Dharn 55- Why are you (and Macster) the "voice of reason"? Could it be that you know what you're talking about, and you truly want to help people instead of screaming "the sky is falling"? (After reading some of the other posts, I have to go out and drive my car to feel good again that my car is not made out of china) Thanks for being here!

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I said it before and I'll say it again. These guys knowledge and WILLING TO SHARE is unreal and an assit to this board. Macster answers are always well thought out an explained in a fantastc manner. I asked the guy in public who he is and where his knowledge was gained. He has yet to answer, so I guess he will just go on being our masked man.

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Rumor has it that Macster is actually an android, and not allowed to discuss his "status". Apparently the Porsche factory built and maintains him to further the Porsche cause. Just don't bring up VW in his presents. Not sure, but this could be a trigger in his programing. Phil

The pictures will give you an idea of setting the timing. This is just for one side/bank. You guys are distracting me from my Tsunami time Dharn55 I hope your timing problem got fixed.

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Thank you Pac966, I understand that to be sure I have to check the timing. I'll spend more time to change the IMS bearing than I thought (completely my fault) but It is going to be a new thing to learn about my "little frog" Thanks again

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Jerry Seinfeld

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Who's that?

The Stig.

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Any chance you can video it and post on youtube?

What a great thread ...wish I could input some technical advice to help but like you my mind is still stuck under the hood of an Audi....Im getting better and thank you, thank you, thank you to those who praise these cars and fight the idea that every 996 will implode from a dreaded IMS issue!!! Its painfull to even come on rennlist sometimes regarding these IMS nightmares. BTW I cant wait to install my new coolant tank.... (hariline crack that appears when car begins to get hot in traffic). New cap too Gonna learn how to lower engine.

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Pac, Shouldn't you be busy putting water wings on your 996 right now?

seriously who is this Macster guy? Every single one of his posts kick ***.

Jake, I am one of your clients. I purchased the special extracting bearing tool, and 2 packages (bundle) of spin oil adaptor + billet oil filter + magnetic drain plug from you for a friend of mine and me I'm going to do the retrofit, but I finally decided to proceed to do a similar task : I ordered to make a reinforced hand made bearing support to a professional lathe operator. He's going to make a 12 mm high quality steel bolt instead of the 8 mm OEM bolt, and asked him to adapt the 3 flange end piece to the new bolt caliber as showed before in other message (from soloporscher barracuda). This is a pic in which you can see the bearing support design: I'll get it done tomorrow, and after that, I'll leave my car to my confident specialist mechanic. I'm going to report this "custom made retrofit kit installation", and you'll have news... After reading and talking to several oil experts, I decided to complete "the engine protection" with Valvoline Racing 5W50 I'll never use Mobil 1 at all. There is a huge difference. Another excellent oil to protect your engine is Motul 300V 5W40 Carles is a very high reputed soloporsche fellow, and we are very glad to follow his explanations. regards from Spain

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We are serious. We don't know. I think its best that way.

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I think he was McGiver on the TV series, and changed his name to Macster to be anonymous...... until now!

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He was born from the loins of Chuck Norris. No female needed. See, because his Dad was Chuck Norris.

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The reservoir install into a MkI is apparently much easier than into a MkII. My understanding is that the install can be done without resorting to the partial engine drop. In fact my indy says the MkII can be done without dropping the engine, but I've done two of them now and I can't imagine how.

I'm expecting to have the LN retrofit kit during this week, Once I have it I'll do the update. I'll check the timing as well. Juankimalo: Thank you for your support. It's nice read your words around here!!!

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So you are replacing the HD center stud that came with the bearing kit? I would strongly recommend against that as the unit thats provided is NOT the OEM bolt, it was designed especially for the retrofit bearing kit. Please do not modify the kit, doing so could compromise the entire effort. Bigger isn't better.

Why would you modify the one that comes with the kit? IIRC I think it is larger diameter.....

Anyone confer with the following quote? I am getting ready to do the IMS upgrade and wanted to know if I need to check for TDC 1 or TDC 4 after locking TDC. My documentation is saying TDC1.

Back to his original mistake, Why cant he pull the tensioners, put the flang back on. Put the tenstions back in? Do the chains become that loose that they have jumped teeth at this point?

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If that is the case, I was just damn lucky

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I was just asking me the same question. But I supose it's only to be completly sure, isn't it?

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No, I have no you retrofit kit My bearing support is custom made The bearing I'm going to use is a single row hybrid ceramic from SKF with the same meassure as the OEM one And I'll get the 3 flange piece modified to being passed through the 12 mm bolt I'm not modifying your kit Thanks Jake Sorry, I pulled the attention of your question

OK, just wanted to clarify. If its not a kit then pay no attention to what I said :-)

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If you put it back in this way, turn it over by hand and see what you have. Sure would be nice if someone could elaberate and share their knowledge on this that knows the internals of the engine a little more than you or I.

If the engine is rotated without tensioners in place the cam timing will be compromised, more than likely. If the tensioners are removed but the engine or camshafts are not rotated the timing should stay OK. BUT my recommendation has to be that the cam timing be verified. Generally when the IMS ends up in a position like what has been pictured the timing must be reset. These engines have very little piston/ valve clearance and timing deviations must be taken seriously before start up.

Jake thank you. You always seem to proceed with caution when giving advice and I understand why. All a person can do is listen to what you have to say and make his choices from there. If he does get the flang back on, if he turns it by hand 2+ rotations and doesnt get interfearance, is it safe to say he may be ok? Or can their be interfearance when the engine is at RPM that is not there when turing by hand?

Its worth checking (ask my last mechanic):

Leaning tower of Valve

The interference may not be noted when the engine is spun over by hand, when the variocam alters valve timing issues that were not present when static can then show up.

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ewwwwwww... with that said. I wouldnt even chance it... I would just make sure its right... No room for boo boo's there. Damn you vario cams! I damn thee!

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That is the way I read it................... the 996 vendors actually get away with that kind of attitude??? 928 vendors face torches and pitchforks for that kinda attitude......... jake, having a bad day, or is this deriggor for the 996 field?

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He's softening up.... Took some ribbing... The more I read his posts I think his fear is more that his advice will be used the wrong way and he get blamed for a train wreck. but we know that never happens

Hey folks are entitled to behave any way they see fit....... We DID have a guy in the 928 parts business with great knowledge and a horrible bed side manner.......... he ain't in business any more. Course you being in the business you are, completely understand this issue. Any way, no biggie........... the community will get this little bit of surgery down pat, and by the time I get around to doing my car, it should not only be a cake walk, but it will be abundantly clear who to pay for the intellectual property....... We went through the same learning curve with superchargers on our sharks....... one guy came out on top...... all a person had to do was follow the drama and it was easy to figure out who would be king!

Most engines have less than .060 piston/ valve clearance at max interference in stock form. Thats less than race engines generally see. Yes, I work from a worst case scenario, if you prepare for the worst then anything else is expected. I try to make things as clear as possible and that can come across in the wrong way, when it is not intended. Giving advice is a liability in today's modern world, we have to watch our asses with every step. Remember, this time last year doing this retrofit was believed to be impossible. I don't try to ruffle feathers, so when you read a pst just take it seriously, not in any other way. The goal is to have this type of work understood by all some day in the near future.

Hi guys, I get the point. I understand it perfectly. Once I receive the LN kit I'll explain how it is going. Thanks everybody.

I received the bearing support/bolt today in special F125 steel. Here are the pics and you could see the increase strength compared to the OEM one I'll leave my car to my mechanic next Thursday

Hi Juanki, It is very nice stuff. We'll wait for your results. Congratulations, Carles

I went to my specialist this afternoon Here you can see the Porsche specialist workshop, 'Altozano Motorsport' (It isn't a very goog pic but there's my car in the left side being received by David): David Altozano close to my car, and a nice Slant nose: And a few pics with the materials to do the custom made retrofit: (there are several things purchased to our gur� Jake Raby) Extracting and pulling tool (we have to modify the pulling tool to adapt it to the largest bolt): And one of the best high performance oils in the world: Valvoline Racing 5W50

More news: My car has 37.500 km and had an oil leak: The RMS was in very bad conditions and had a good leak... but the IMS had a little oil leak too. My mechanic extracted the bearing and was in quite good conditions. The 3 flange piece has been modified to allow the custom made bearing support, passing through (enlarged up to 12 mm). Besides we have modified the bearing support design making a little groove to house another seal. (The clutch was absolutely perfect) I'll post more pics

Hello everyone. I wanted to bring this one back from the dead. I just got done doing L&N's retrofit ims kit. I locked the crank at TDC but didn't lock the cams. I took out the crankcase tensioner and bank 1 tensioner. I pulled the old bearing and replaced it with the new one. The install went pretty easy. I got everything back together and tried to start the car up. Holy crap! is sounds worst than a diesel. The car shakes violently and doesn't want to run. I shut the car off and started to look for problems. I checked the cam timing, which turned out to be spot on. I read the codes with a pst2 and two codes that keep coming back. Hall signal p1341 and oil temp p0198. I changed the bank1 cam sensor with no change. I'm running out of ideas. Any help would be great.

Tow thw car and go to a Porsche oficial dealer to set the chain timing correctly. After that It will work accuracy

Get a price from Scott at German Auto Specialist. He's near the airport right next door to pearl harbor hickam hehehe. I get a kick out of hearing that at the gate. Anyway, you do the PCA clucb events? Sorry to hear about the problem. http://germanautospecialists.com/ Don't forget to price compair with the dealer. The dealers service manager is honest and a good guy. Not everyone is that lucky from what I've heard on here. Scott at German Auto Specialist has all the cam holding and timing stuff also so have fun shopping. Scott has done a lot of working on his 911 race car too so maybe he knows where the foul up might be. Jim

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I talked to an Erin at the dealership today. He insisted the timing had to be off. I checked and double checked the timing and it is spot on. When the motor is at TDC, and you look in the hole above the oil pump, the notch is pointing toward the valve cover. After you turn the crank pulley 90 deg, the cut in the end of the exhaust cam is perfectly lined up with the intake cam. I put the timing tool in place and the sword pin goes right into the cut out for the intake cam. I'll give scott a call and see if he can shed some like onto what I'm doing wrong. I would much rather pull everything apart and start from scratch if that what is needed. No love for air cooled engines?

Yah I'd let the real mechanics figure it out. I kind of wonder if an electrical contact has been lost like when you possibly pulled plugs to rotate the engine by hand? n the old days I can remember some problems from the plug tip hitting outside the hole picking up dirt that fouled the plug or plugs. The there are the wires that just failed from being old and not being able to take the stress of being pulled on or bent. I do know Scott needs the business and he will charge less than the dealer for the parts he installs that he got from the dealer. I'm sure he will tell you what it probably is then will give an explanation of other possibilities. Let us know how it turns out. I'd be strange enough to wonder if just unplugging the battery an replugging it would clear some weird problem the system has.

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If I understand this correctly, your mistake is here. The timing should be set when engine is on TDC. On the service manual, it says that you turn the engine 90deg in enginestand. Not the pulley

The factory timing instructions lead to calls here all the time. I even receive calls from Porsche dealerships that are lost in the process! I am editing my IMSR DVD as we speak.. I will also end up selling a cam timing DVD separately to help people through this process that the factory manual butchers! Last week I had two attendees of my class that stated that one process is the only thing they wished to learn from my rebuild school.

With the cam 90 degrees out I am surprised the car will even run. I know the manual is not as clear as it could be, but it is not so bad you should be off by 90 degrees WOW If you want to try to set it yourself PM me with your email address and I can send you some instructions on the method I use.

Doug, Still too new of a member to PM but would really appreciate those instructions. My email is [email removed] . I'd be interested in seeing how yours are different than the service manual and get the car running again. If they work, I might be posting a FS: thread for some slightly used service manuals. Thanks Doug.

Turbo_BM Do it like you did it before, just keep the pulley locked during the proces. This is how I did it after I chanched my variocam pad's, and my motor is working Just hope that you didn't bent any valves....