Water Pump

Hello folks.., Time to change water pump.... OEM Pump is really expensive so i would like to know if some of you know Beck Arnley as a water Pump manufacturer... less expensive and use the composite impeller.... Thanks Robert 2000 C4

Stick with the OEM pump. Been there done that with el'cheapo. I ripped mine out after 100 miles, it was already leaking. No sense risking a $15000 engine on saving a $100 on a water pump.

I thought Jake a flat6 said water pump failure can also lead to cracked heads. http://www.flat6innovations.com/pre-...#mce_temp_url#

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Pump failure leads to a complete melt down of the entire engine, including cracked heads.

Sunset Porsche WP $220. I also debate about going cheap, but I decided that anything critical, I'm going OEM. I did just order an aftermarket widow regulator out of curiosity and realize it may have been a mistake, but that doesn't put anything at risk like the motor or suspension.

do it right, do it once....also vote for OEM WP.

Just to be sure before to order the new OEM water pump... When the engine is running do you hear or can you hear the water pump or not When I'm under the car with the engine running i can hear a little whistle cumming from the WP.....is that normal Thanks Robert

Mine had a slight squeal at idle, up to about 2500 and then it would fade out. That was the beginning of the end of that pump... the bearing was so shot by the time it was removed (at best 200 miles on the failing pump while making that sound) that it was rubbing the case. Impeller wasnt broken - thankfully it was the plastic P-O-S impeller otherwise it might have been a real mess... Make sure your new pump has the metal impeller, I am told it is a MUST have when you replace it.

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The OEM pumps don't use metal impellers and that POS polymer impeller may saved your engine block. Everyone wants to worry about plastic pieces getting caught in a water jacket. What about milled pieces of aluminum coming from the block as the steel impeller cuts into it. Be proactive and replace the pump every coouple of years. Don't wait for the sounds. Buy OEM with the polymer impeller.

Yep, just got my new water pump from Sunset Porsche and it is the polymer impeller. I also bought one of the non-OEM ones from E-bay to save money but after reading the forums decided against installing it. When comparing the two side by side you can notice the quality difference, especially when spinning the pulley and the feel of the bearing. Stay with OEM! David

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Not if you watch the temp gauge. If it goes to 200 from 180 then stop, theres something amiss needs looking at. Thats the time to change the water pump. Not when theres buggar all wrong with the one you have. Thank god for the scare mongers. If we had to take notice and upgrade everything they are selling, we may as well go flat out and buy a new engine. Whats the point in buying a 996 at a very reasonable price then spending all kinds of cash on upgrading the engine as soon as we get the car? We might as well have gone for a $50000 later model.

Thanks folks..., I finally bought the OEM water pump....i will probably receive it within 2 days...just the time to take off the old one.... Thanks again Robert 2000 C4

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If the pump is bad it should make some noise. What kind of noise varies. When I had what proved to be bad pump on my Boxster there was a vague rumbly/grumbling sound. I had to remove the belt and start the cold engine to determine the noise was not coming from *inside* the engine. Now a whistle noise might arise from the belt if the pump's bad enough the water pump pulley is out of position (due to excessive water pump bearing/shaft play) that the belt rubs on the side of the pulley. It also 'rubs' on each V groove that accepts one of the ribs of the belt. However, while my car's belt was obviously rubbing -- the inside edge of a rather new belt was sharp while a belt that had been in service for thousands of miles had no sharp edges -- it was not making a whistling noise. Besides noise the water pump can be leaking fluid. Look for any signs of any wetness around the water pump. The best time to look for this is to get the car/engine nice and hot -- assuming the water pump does not have any play at its pulley/shaft -- and then shut off the engine. Carefully look for signs of coolant fluid coming from behind the pulley and running down the water pump casting. The fluid is hot and it will flash to vapor soon so you have to look sharp. You can shine a light and look behind there, though you may need mirror on a stick/swivel to get a good view. Also, use your nose. If you smell antifreeze... it is coming from the pump, but of course you have to eliminate the possibility it is coming from a bad coolant tank, a leaking cap, or from some other leak in the cooling system. Sincerely, Macster.

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I dont disagree with your point either way its a gamble - plastic can break off, metal can break off - the place where I take my car (well respected in these parts) tells me no plastic, i went with metal. Fact is you are 100% correct, preventing failure buy replacing proactively is the way to go - in my case I noticed the sound and I had 150 miles to go.

Subscribers to Excellence have likely seen this - but this link will open a great tech article on M96 water pumps https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B66...DJ3dXlLUjVDRTg

I just replaced my water pump last weekend with a Pierburg pump (an OEM supplier) from Pelican parts (my original pump finally threw in the towel after 94k miles). The composite impellers are fine. Sure, they can break apart, but it's not really that likely. I feel like composite impellers are the next IMS bearing... I also added in a low-temp thermostat while I was at it. The job is super easy (though a couple of the bolts are a bit of a pain to get at).

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That's not actually true. The OEM pump I purchased from Sunsent Porsche came with a metal impeller.

Hello, How hard is replacing a bad waterpump on a 2000? I'm very familiar with working on 944 models, but not the 996. Say that an oil change is the easiest and a 944 clutch replacement is the hardest, with a 944 timing and balance belt change in the middle. Is a 996 water pump change easier than the belt job? Thanks, Barry Barry Lenoble [email removed] 89 944 turbo 00 911 Cabriolet

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If your example above is a 1-10 scale, I'd give a waterpump replacement a 2.5. It's pretty straightforward (there is a great write up on how to do it on the Pelican Parts website). The hardest part is getting to a couple of the bolts, they're just in a very awkward spot to reach and you may have to get creative with your tools.

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Flush it then flush it again and maybe if you are **** like my guy is flush it a turd time for good measure!!! Then burp and burp more - mine burped 3-4 times so be sure to have some pentofrost and distilled water at hand for the first 50-100 miles (well mine took 100 because i drove it home about 80 miles just cruising on the highway) Youll know you burped when the temp jumps and the red light flashes I probably added at least 1/2 to 3/4 of a gallon after the initial burp.

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Ha! I'm learning this today. First time I've gotten to drive the car since I changed the pump and did the initial fill/burp. I topped it off this morning before leaving for work and the level dropped quite a bit by the time I got there.

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There is a little valve on the cap - drive with that open as well. Let's the air out. I left mine open a little longer than the last burp. It was middle of winter and never more than 30 degrees so it wasn't a big deal like it would be this time of year.

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Impellers have been known to fly off and give the inside of your cooling system a little gift. Temperature gauge wont help you much I'm afraid. Gauge = a means of estimating or judging; criterion; test. ( a guess! )

Plastic impeller is the correct answer. Carry on.

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But when the impeller flies off... Doesn't the flow of water stop. Then the impeller stays where it came off. Then the temps go up because of no water flow. Then you switch off. A differant case if only a blade should fly off. Then we are in trouble. Mine I think is the original water pump. If thats metal or plastic I don't know or even care. If it starts to leak then it gets changed to a plastic bladed one in case the impellor breaks on that one.

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The failure mode is that the bearing gets loose, the impeller starts to rub, and bits of the blades break off. The blade shrapnel then travels through the water jackets and get lodged in the narrowest ones - often times the head. Hot spots develop, which leads to cracks, which is likely to manifest as intermix.. Most impellers are plastic, the 997 "update" is metal. The plastic impellers break more easily when the bearing gets loose, but the metal impellers grind the engine case. Neither scenario is any good. Either way it is recommended to check for leaks or listen for noises indicating a worn bearing, but better still....replace the pump before either occurs. And you won't see this on your temp gauge Hurtin'Gurti man...once again if you had a shred of mechanical sense you might have thought twice about dispensing your own particular brand of wisdom....but go ahead and defer all the maintenance you want. We'll be there with all sorts of advice for you when something breaks

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Relax Dude. I highly doubt anyone here is taking Hurdi's mechanical advice as GOSPEL. I understand that Hurdi hurt your feelings in the past, but please try to get over it and move on. Your repeated attacks on him smack as a scorned woman.

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Thanks for the reality check DC. I can let it go. I've been away a while and thought I'd check in, and knee jerked I guess. Just reading up on some other threads and I can see HGM has been cementing his rep pretty good all by himself. I'll let him do the work from now on.

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And you better hope that you never lose a water pump drive bearing.. When you do that metal impeller will destroy the crankcase by chewing into the aluminum housing. When this happens the system will never build enough cooling system pressure to avoid overheating. Keep the plastic impeller and change the pump every 3 years despite mileage. The Excellence article is great this month, their contributor on this article really knows his stuff :-)

well if you wanted cheap you should have stayed on the porch and bought a chebby The water pump is way too important to this engine to mess with. Yes poor cooling can lead to engine failure FAAAAAST. I feel its a pay me now or pay me later. and the later is a lot more money. caugh up the 250 and have piece of mind.

I changed my water pump recently as a preventive thing. 52k. The impellers were Extremely brittle. Super glad I did it!

The problem with this forum is people get **** about stuff and frighten the hell out of others. I replaced my plastic impeller water pump with a metal one from EBay for $106 at 40,000 miles and the bearing was perfect. and we have done 10,000 miles since and the new one is still perfect. the new one was made by some company in Stuttgart Germany. Looked good to me.

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Just know that if the bearing in that pump with the metal impeller ever fails the crankcase will be compromised. The solution to one problem often leads to a situation that can create others. Lots of people think the metal impeller is the fool proof way to go- experience has taught me otherwise.

I had my water pump replaced at ~90,000 miles because it was starting to leak. The bearing and the impeller looked fine, but I'm glad I had it done. FWIW - I did the same thing on our Cayenne at ~80,000 miles. Water pumps wear out...

When I am not sure of something - I read boards like this and I typically go to a professional. Someone who has a proven track record and more importantly one that I trust. I called the place I use. Not only are they successful on the track, I grew up with one of them. So in my case, I took their advice. I went with metal and went to 160 stat (which is another topic that has a motor oil tone to it). The article from excellence, although very informative - pretty much reads to me "you are ****** with plastic or metal". I didnt buy a cheap ebay pump - although i did consider it, I bought OEM* made in germinay which of course is the general feeling (at least what I am reading) and to shark attacks point - dont drive porka if you cant afford to forka-ova the money. When removed, My plastic was warped and the bearing was shot. I will admit, I hope that the metal holds up because I can only imagine what kind of little bits of plastic made its way in (and now that i think about it - explains the 3 flushes). Regardless, take the steps to maintain your vehicle properly/as scheduled and things will last a long time. Everyone would agree with that. I have about 3k on my metal pump with no issues. I have been reading this board for quite some time. Only a member for a short period. That being said, the information posted on this board is priceless. Its kind of like ebay in a sense - whatever you are thinking about you can find. This and another board helped me find the car I bought, helped me identify little tricks and tips and has given me guidance to do little things that I would normally pay someone else to do. To roperin's point, many times people are **** or stubborn and you just have to weed through it. But without those people this board wouldnt been the great source it is. Reading the arguments helps you form your own opinion. But remember "opinions are like ***holes... Everybody has one" Sometimes it comes down to the guy that farts the loudest!!! LOL *Edit to clarify OEM meaning OEM not metal or plastic. Mine was OEM Metal, the options were OEM Metal or OEM Plastic

The key is just making sure you do something! Metal or plastic both have their compromises, but both are better than the one thats been in your engine for a decade. I always remind people that the metal pump is not the be all, end all.. Because they overlook the fact that it can be a negative as they are only focused on solving the impeller blade problem. Never fear, a true solution is just over the rainbow.

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well said

Jake, Are you familliar with the aftermarket Stewart HP water pump that is used on BMWs? Unlike the factory BMW pump (and the Porsche pump) the metal impellar is enclosed in its own metal case or cylindrical jacket. If the impellar were to wobble around (which to my knowledge, have not heard reports of that with the Stewart pump) it will only make contact with the inside of the case and not the engine itself. It is a popular, long lived replacement (I have one) for the weak BMW design.

OK - I'm willing to pop a few hundred for preventative maintenance. Installation is free and easy for those of us with a set of sockets in our toolbox, so for the price of a few tanks of gas (premium here costs $1.62/litre = $6.13/gallon) why even ask the question? A question I will ask though is what pump should I order off of Pelican (should I choose to buy from them and not Suncoast). They offer two: 1) OEM supplier Pierburg for $275 2) OEM Porsche for $388 Both are composite impellers. That's good enough for me - I'll change it again in 7 years if I still own the car. As an aside - it will be interesting to see if the M97 reman motor in my car has a plastic or metal impeller.

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I ordered the OEM Porsche pump from Pelican last night. The pump shaft was flagged as having some play at my last service and I noticed yesterday my temperature gauge being higher than normal, so I'm taking that as a sign that it's almost time for replacement.

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Does that mean you are developing a third option?

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Already developed and has been used in our engines. I have not determined if we will market it otherwise due to installation difficulty. I am also worried that someone would replace a failing pump with this unit and not remove all the prior debris from the system which could lead to failure and our product would get the finger pointing. In today's world its a difficult marketplace to say the least and everyone looks upstream when something happens that isn't positive~

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Will the extended warranty I have for 30000 miles cover a failed water pump I wonder? I checked the WP about 10000 back when I changed the serpentine belt. It wasn't leaking or rattling or had any untoward movement as I could feel. Then again with having no records with the car, it may have been changed just before I got it. It seems like the best solution is to change the WP every 2 years no matter what. OK I will settle for that. So is the plastic one OK to use for 2 years? or would the Metal one be better?

Just use your gauge Hurdi LOL. Sudden change of mind with the wind there.

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What's the proper way of removing the debris? I assume you flush the engine, but how to you make sure you're washing things out and not into those small paths? I would assume you flush in the reverse direction of normal flow but how do you accomplish that? Thanks, S.

Hey, Last Friday I ordered a new pump and gasket from Suncoast Porsche: http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...96WaterCooling The price was $268, which seems cheap to me (well, not for a water pump, but cheap for a Porsche part). Just for grins I called the local dealer - they will change the pump for $1250 or I can buy the pump from them for $450! I'll be installing the pump this week. Barry

When my pump died I parked the car and ordered parts hoping to fix it the next weeked. Work and life got a little hectic at the same time the pump died so I didn't have any time to work on the car. Feeling like I was never going to have a free moment to fix the car, I called one of the local shops to get a quote to have them replace the water pump and thermostat. They go off "book time" from Porsche and they quoted me 5.5 hours at $110 an hour (not as bad as Barry's quote, though). It took me a little under 3 hours to do it myself when I finally had time, and it was my first time doing that level of work on this car. I can only imagine how quickly a Porsche tech can do it.

While we are on the subject of water pumps, does anyone know who has the best write up? I'm not so concerned about actually changing the pump, as I am about bleeding the system afterwards. I want to be certain there are no hot spots.

Jasper, Try Sunset Porsche in Beaverton Oregon. OEM Water Pump = $213.42 (purchased 12/2010) Ask for "Excellence Magazine" Pricing. Freight was $11 to Seattle. [phone removed]... "A question I will ask though is what pump should I order off of Pelican (should I choose to buy from them and not Suncoast). They offer two: 1) OEM supplier Pierburg for $275 2) OEM Porsche for $388"

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Not the sharpest Cockney on the planet if you can't read the sarcasm in my posting.

Deleted

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"What all of your posts!". Anyhow here's the link to the Austin owners club http://www.allegroclubint.org.uk/ Your do alright there its full of old Brits.

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Thanks Jacks - I would but they refuse to take Canadian credit cards. It's weird, their Audi division is fine with it (as is every other vendor in the world) but the Porsche guy is like nope - no way. Defies logic. I'll try them again but last time I tried was last year.

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Hahaha - you were being sarcastic? I wrote that post off as you just being a drunken moron. Maybe you're not so bad after all dirtybirdy man. Sharp wit and all.

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Jasper, I dont take alcohol these days. Nor do I smoke as I once did. May still be a moron though. Then again I say NO. Only a Moron would buy a 996 and forget to buy an extended warranty as part of the deal. Playful banter you understand Jasper. Look up Hurdigurdiman on Youtube. Surely Morons don't do the things I do. Drop a message to me if you get to my channel. (A nice one this time please) lol

Beware: 997 WP is now sold as the direct replacement for the 996WP in our cars. The 997 WP I received from Sunset had an impeller that was 3/32" larger in diameter than the original 996 WP. Had I not checked for rotation and just put everything back together and started the car it would have been disastrous. Maybe it's just in MY 03, I don't know. Sunset exchanged the pump and apologized.

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What did they exchange it to if what you got the first time was considered direct replacement? Was it a manufacturing defect? Although it's hard to imagine a defect being a fan larger in size.....

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No so uncommon, I was trying to buy some Delvac transmission fluid http://www.lufteknic.com/Merchant2/m...ode=lubricants from Lufteknic in the US with a Canadian Visa credit card, I even have an US shipping address that is on file with Visa, but nope they won't accept the order, I have to wire-transfer funds and yada yada yada. While I thought about getting some of the local guys together to buy a batch of various fluids from Lufteknic, at the end I didn't bother, it was just too much hassle in these days and age of sufficient anti-fraud protection not being enough for this outfit!!

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Thats my kind of car lol... What about this for you. It could only be thought up in London. http://www.reliantownersclub.co.uk/

Nah, had a look reminded me of the one in your avatar. Tamworth m8 Did you not see Top Gear or are you on the re-runs.

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Not keen on the Top Gear in the states. I used to like watching the British Original series. I like watching Wheeler Dealers. A couple of Southern Lads. It's a good show if you can get it.

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They(Sunset) replaced the 997 WP with a 996 WP. When I called them to report the problem, they put me on hold for quite a while checking. When they got back to me I got an acknowledgment from them that they should not have sent that 997 WP. I know that many have used the 997 WP successfully. So, maybe it was a manufacturing problem??

Hey, I changed the pump Saturday morning. It took me a little over 3 hours and that included a trip to the auto parts place to buy a new hose clamp. The procedure is actually pretty simple. There were no real surprises. I did have to remove a hard coolant pipe so there was enough room for the pump to drop down. One of the water pump bolts is real hard to reach. It took quite a bit of time to remove it and replace it. The car holds a LOT of coolant, over 2 gallons. I have added over two gallons of fresh coolant and I probably need to add a little more. IMHO, spending 3 hours and $300 is much better than paying someone $1000 (or more) to do it for you. Barry

These cars use 6 gallons of coolant...

But you don't lose all of it when doing the water pump. But I agree, if this is the first coolant change, ever, then full replacement is probably warranted. Since most of mine was replaced when the expansion tank was replaced 4 years ago, I won't mind ony adding make-up to it. Barry, I plan on doing mine soon, as a preventative, so was the hard pipe plastic or metal? Need any gaskets to re-attach? Do you know the part number from the pet?

It's actually pretty difficult to get a large percentage of the coolant out of the car. I pulled the water pump, and both radiators and still only got about 90% of it. Just pulling the water pump should only drain about 2 gallons (as referenced above).

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I bought the kit from Suncoast. It included the pump and gasket. Both fit perfectly. http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...96WaterCooling The price is$268. I also bought a new belt, since mine looked worn, and a gallon of Porsche coolant. The hard pipe is metal. There were three bolts that hold it in position. Remove those and pull the pipe from the hose it is connected to, then move it out of the way. The entire procedure is shown very nicely in a youtube video: You Tube He shows the hard pipe that needs to be removed. The only 'difficult' part is removing one of the water pump bolts. It's in a difficult place to reach. You better have a nice collection of 3/8" and 1/4" sockets, ratchets, extensions, etc. The best one for me was a deep dish 10mm. That fit most of the bolts. One more thing, you better have a 3 gallon bucket ready to catch most of the old coolant. Good luck, Barry

Thanks, I appreciate the heads up! I've got a lift, a 5 gallon tub, air tools, and good assortment of sockets, so I'm not really worried about the difficulty. I also own the Uview vacuum fill tool, so I think I'm set. Thanks for the youtube, I'd watched a different one, for a '99, and there are some minor differences. Going to do the AOS as a preventative at the same time.

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I'm all for preventative maintenance, but since there's really no overlap in the work I'd suggest you just replace the waterpump and get your car working properly as a first step. Then, once you're sure things are good with your first repair, move on to the AOS. The AOS is a much more involved repair that will take a good amount of time. I prefer to know that I have one thing fixed and working properly before I introduce other variables. Just my two cents...

Just ordered my Water pump from Autohauz (Pierbrug brand) for $248 shipped including gasket.

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Good price! Is it a Porsche part? So, is it worthwhile to replace the thermostat and belt at the same time?

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According to a couple of websites that brand is what porsche rebrands as their own. So I guess it's believe it or not.

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Replacing the themostat isn't a bad idea while you're in there since it's just a couple extra bolts and you'll have the coolant drained already. If you need a new belt, it's a good time to do it as well since you'll have it off. But if yours still looks good I'd skip it, as the belt is very easy to access and is a 20 minute job.

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Thanks, I figured, but you never see those items mentioned when people are changing the pump.

Maybe the water pump/thermostat/belt will be my summer project...

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Hey, If the belt has more than 50K miles I would buy a new one. If it has less I would take a quick look and see if there are any cracks, etc. You need to remove the belt to change the water pump, so putting a new one on adds about 2 minutes of work. Take a picture of the belt before you take it off so you can make sure it's routed correctly. I would not touch the thermostat unless there is a problem. Just MHO. Barry