997 lines vs. 996 lines vs. 993 lines!!

I'm sick of hearing people say the 997 is a throwback to the 993. It's NOTHING of the sort. Just cause they changed the headlights to round doens't make it a throw-back. I also had someone tell me they don't like the lines of the 996, but the LOVE the lines of the 997, cause it closer to the 993. I lined all 3 models up with side-shots, I can't even tell the diff. between the 996 and 997 and I own the eff'ing thing!! Not flaming, just thought it was interesting how similar they actually are, and being the kind person I am, I thought I would share with you kids.

The 993 is different in profile. The 996 and 997 are virtually identical. A 997 parked next to me in a parking lot recently, and it was striking just how similar they are. But the headlights. IMO the headlights on the 996 are a mess. Just because you can shape plastic in ways you could not previously does not mean it is a good idea. The return to round 993 style lights is a big styling improvement. But it is just styling. It may be hard to see, but this is a good thing, at least for me. The 997 coming out and the hoopla surrounding it made the 996 more affordable. Other than very minor styling changes, the cars are pretty identical and drive the same. One more thing, except for us in the club, so to speak, no one can tell the difference.

The ride is completely different. For me a least I own a 00 C4 and last time it was in the shop I got a 06 C4 as a loaner for 6 days. Put about 500 mile on it... Stock 00' vs. Stock 06' 00' Floats at higher speed vs. 06' none at all "at least up to 110mph" 00' shifter is a mile long vs. 06' short and tight 00' clutch hard to find a good release point vs. 06' same sweet spot every time 00' PSM kicks in early vs. 06 lets you take it to the edge and won't jerk you around when it does kick in 00' good grip vs. endless grip and more "This was my favorite part" 00' tracks and wonders vs. 06' let your hands go and just close your eyes That's just off the top of my head and if i could afford a 997 I would buy one tomorrow. The $104,000 price tag would have me in divorce court

arr0gant, the similarities between the 997 and 993 have nothing to do with the side profile. It is all about the more organic shape of the car including the CURVES when seen from the rear. Take a closer look at the beautiful Coke bottle shape below:

Porsche has indicated that they intended to bring some 993 elements back with the 997. Specifically, the round headlights, wider "hips" and redesigned interior are all clearly influenced by the 993. However, you are correct that they are all very similar in profile. I would also agree that the 996/997 clearly have much more in common than the 993/997 both in styling and mechanical functionality. I love the 996 (including the style of it's headlights) and the public clearly loves it too. The automotive press has lavished praise on it and the buying public has made it the most popular 911 ever built as it's sales far exceed any other version ever produced. Finally, with the 996 GT3, it is also one of the most successful 911's in racing!

The reality is that all these different variations of the 911 all have that elusive "Porscheness" that no other car has. The engineers spent a lot of time making sure that each new iteration built on that heritage; if not Porsche wouldn't exist today. Besides most people on the streets can't tell the difference between a 964, 993, 996 or 997; they just see a very sexy car that is unmistakably a Porsche. As far as the wide hips go, the 996 C4S, Turbo and GT2 have it in spades and I also love the headlights on the 2002+ 996's. I drove many 997's and 996's before choosing my car; is it perfect? No, but it's pretty darn close and it has enough positives to out number the negatives. The best solution would be (if I had unlimited funds and garage space) one 911 from every generation. Ah, one can dream!

I love 'em all but there is no question in my mind that the 993 is the best looking of the bunch. But I want the new technology and the corresponding bells and whistles. Now, if I could get a MY2007 993... that would really be something.

Side profiles are all very similar, they are all 911's after all. However, is more about the curves. Look at your pictures and the last 3 bottom pictures were taken at the same place, whith the same lighting. Look at the light reflection that looks like a white line going across the door and fenders of the black 997 and the blue 993, see the curves? Look at the line o the black 996, it's straight. This is were the design of the 997 is more similar to the 993 than the 996, not just the on the round lights, but they made the car more organic looking with more pronounced curves on the fenders , hips and the wide *** of the 993 is back.

Keep in mind that the 997' is not a completely new chassis, it is actually an upgraded 996 chassis. The floorpan, firewalls, roof, pillar stuctures, and glass are all from the 996. In fact, most of the chassis is from the 996, hence why the same wheelbase and door profile. Of course he fenders and bumpers are different. The same was true of the 964 and 993 in that the 993 was an upgraded 964 chassis. The next 911, the 998' will be on an all new chassis. The most significant change is from the 3/4 view, not present in these photos. The 996 had very wide door sills and door structures. These were drastically narrowed in the 997 to give more of a peanut shape to the side profile and make the rear fenders more pronounced. Narrowing the doors was the primary reason why the side airbags were moved from the doors to the seats on the 997. It is also the reason why the door storage under the armrest is so much smaller.

Stock 00' vs. Stock 06' "00' Floats at higher speed vs. 06' none at all "at least up to 110mph" This is your suspension....my 99 with PSS9's has NO floating up to 150+ "00' shifter is a mile long vs. 06' short and tight" Again....the Porsche shifter is plastic and sloppy, a B&M shifter would clean it up. "00' clutch hard to find a good release point vs. 06' same sweet spot every time" Again...a 6+ year old car vs a new car...I drove a 997 and it was very similar to my C4. "00' PSM kicks in early vs. 06 lets you take it to the edge and won't jerk you around when it does kick in" Could be your tires, or maybe the bigger tires of a 997. "00' good grip vs. endless grip and more "This was my favorite part"" Again...bigger wider tires would do that..my 996 with 997 rims and tires has TONS of grip... "00' tracks and wonders vs. 06' let your hands go and just close your eyes" Yup again the tires are the culprit.....my 996 tracks perfectly straight with no wander. Your 996 can perform very similarly to a 997, they are based on the same chassis and are mechanically VERY similar...I bet if you drove a 04 996 it would be very different from your 2000 996.

There are certainly styling clues from the 993 that were lost on the 996 and replaced in the 997. Hips. It's not that the 993 and 997 hips are wider than the 996. The difference is that Porsche decided to streamline the 996 hip, and give a a more gradual flare starting from immediately behind the door, spreading out the flare. The amount of flair is the same, but spread out over a longer distance on the panel. In both the 993 and the 997, the hips come out more abruptly significantly farther back from the door, leading to a more prominent and obvious look. It is more dramatic. With the wider C4S hip, I like the fact that the wider hip and flare is more subtle. Narrow bodies and the GT3, I would have wanted it more dramatic to make up for the thinner hips. Headlights. I am definitely in the minority here. I LIKE the teardrop shape of the C4S/TT and later 996 headlights. It sets them apart from any other 911, and it's GREAT looking to boot. If you look at my avatar, you can definitely see which one is a Boxster 987S and which one is the 996 C4S. You would have a harder time if it was with the 997 and 987. I definitely think they made a mistake going back to the ovals.

As I understand it 997 shares about 30% of its parts with the 996, but is still very similar to it. The rear C4 bodywork is nearly 2 in (50.8 mm) wider over larger tires. Which I don�t have Rear Suspension went wider too I think you misunderstood my post. I have a car that I have yet to add any mods to it. Yes it is seven years old Suspension (I believe is all new to the 997) Which I don�t have Short shift (997 is tighter, less slop) Will be adding B&M on Monday Wider tires (I did just put new tires on, same as stock) Wider I don�t have I did put a new clutch and flywheel on All these things I don�t have and I wish I did, but when comparing stock to stock there is a difference. Just comparing these to cars, there is a difference, which is what we are talking about right. I think we could go round for round all night, but I�ll give you the last word

I agree. I think the 996 Mk II has the best looking front end/headlights and the 997 has the better looking rear and interior. Ohh, I almost forgot.....I prefer the 996's curb weight...

That's why I bought my 997 vs. the 996 I also test drove.

Yes, by looking at your avatar, I see that you have a weakness for curves

IMHO, I personally like the gradual curves of the 996 vs the 997, but still love the body styling of the 993. I am waiting for the 997 "replacement" for me to trade up. Although 80% of the body panels of the 997 is different from the 996, they still use the same engine design, with the same RMS design flaw. Given, it's not a common problem, but when it does occur it is so dramatic (from what I read on the board) they should have fixed it. Reminds me of the quick redesign the 993 (95?-98) received from the previous generation. I also think the round headlight work really well on the 993 with the shorter less-slanted nose, but just doesn't look right to me having the round handlamps with a longer more-sloped 996 style nose... though to each their own. Just my $0.02.

I agree. I also think that they should have kept the rear reflector on the back of the 997 C4S; it's also part of the heritage. While we are nitpicking, I have to say that the rear bumper/tailight/quarter panel cut line does not appeal to me on the 997. I much prefer the straight horizontal line on the 996; again more in keeping with the past.

Maybe your does. Stock my 02' with the standard suspension was very tightened down until 130 mph, where the front end would start getting light. Switching to a ROW M030 suspension solved that problem. True: stock vs. stock. The 997 shifter was changed to become 15% shorter and more direct. The sport shifter option decreases throws 30% on 996's and an additional 15% on 997's with a huge improvement in shifter feel and throws for both. A new clutch wa put in my car when it was certified. They installed a 997 clutch, which has now superceeded the 996 clutch. It feels almost exactly the same as a 997 with a high realease, except a 997 has a slightly lighter pedal. If your release point is shifting, I would suggest having your clutch fluid changed. It is most likely air in the clutch line. What PSM? My 02' has none. I like to think I am fortunate to have full control of my car and not having to turn PSM off everytime I get into it. What size and type of wheel and tires are you running on your 00'? I have always been amazed at how much grip the 996's with the optional 18" wheels have. Both the tire width and tires effect this. I have swapped with a friend with a 06' 997 and my car with 225/285 Bridgestome S03's has significantly more grip that his car with 18" 235/265 Conti's...especially in the back end. My car has not had any problems tracking or wandering with the stock or ROW M030 even with a street track alignment (-.7 camber front/-1.5 camber back). Now that I have upgraded to GT3 control arms, I have bumped the camber up to -1.6 front and -1.9 rear. I do have some tramlining so more conecntration is needed. It about the same as you would experience with a GT3 with the same settings. Again, what size and type of wheels and tires are you running on your 00'? When was the last time you checked your bushings, ball joints and tie rod ends?

I totally agree. The 997 headlights are WAY better and DO bring it back to more of a "classic" Porsche look.

Doing the B&M tomorrow Not sure which clutch they did, but it was do 2 months ago. I try bleeding the clutch and the fluid was done when I had it replaced. Thanks for the info Even with the PSM off it's still trying to keep any one wheel from spinning 225/265 18" Pirelli Funny thing. I bitched at the dealer 3 times about squeaking suspension. I talked to the tech and he when over the suspension for me a couple different times, being that I could not duplicate it on the test drive. He took a damn crow bar to it. He said that it was in good shape

Here's a different view. Still VERY similar!!! Way more alike than the 993.

I still have a hard time telling a 997 'at a glance' from the 996 unless it's coming straight at me on the road. I personally don't see that much 993 in the car at all. :/ But by far the WORST styling decision on the 997 is that terribly ugly rear bumper line. The car already had a tail-heavy look but the angle of that line just breaks it up in the worst possible manner. Like something from Bangle's House of BMW abortions. Look at arrogant's rear photos above and see how much simpler and cleaner the rear-end of the 996 looks...straight lines connecting underneath the engine cover and all of it in line with the with the bottom of the tail lights. Why mess with it unless you're just doing it so people can tell the cars apart from behind.

The 02 996 turbo front and headlights is much more sexy and aggressive, than the 997 pre 02 996 and the 993. I feel porsche went backwards on the front of the car.Now I must say the rear fenders look nice.

jmho, but the 993 cannot be bettered for looks.

reviving a thread from the dead...but I just bought a cabriolet wind deflector for a 997 and it fits my 996 perfectly. I guess the interior dimensions really didn't change? Also in my office garage - there are 5 996's and 8 997's. I can definitely tell them apart but I have to say most general public cannot.

There is a great trade-off with the horribly ugly 996 headlights. They make for a remarkably cheap car for us. Seriously, we get a $50,000 car for $20,000 because the headlights are so terrible and we don't have to see them from behind the wheel. That's a great deal in my opinion.

The only thing I didn't love about both 996's I owned were the headlights. The broken egg design has not aged well (my opinion only of course). I love the classic lines and face of my 993 though....so organic and there just isn't a bad angle (again my subjective opinion only).

I own a 2000 996. I love it. With that said, I happen to think the 997 looks a bit better. A bit. I have to say though that I think my old school '84 is better looking than both of them. I'll go even further and say that I think the 993 isn't all that. Yes, it has nice hips, but the front end is not it's best view, and it certainly isn't as beautiful as the old, original 911. Sorry 993 fans. I just don't see it with that version of the 911.

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1) see the pics in the post above yours 2) reconsider! That is one beautiful 993!

+1, but then again, I'm biased!

As a 996 Mk2 owner, my personal preference are: 1. 993 2. 997 Mk1 3. 996 Mk2

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LOL I agree

wow, who knew that November was "Bring back really old threads month"

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It's an even BETTER trade off for me, considering I don't think the 996 headlights are horribly ugly! I kinda like them - they have to be better aerodynamically too. Also, $50k? My car stickered close to $80k with options.

Hell, I just hope the 998 blows away the 997 so they lose value really fast and I can pick me up a 997T

Friends within the factory tell me that if you like the 997 you'll love the 991. (It will not be a "998").

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991, 992, 994? Or will they just us VW numbers after 992?

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they are going to work there way back to 993 just to shut everyone up

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I can see it now! The new 993 isn't a real 993!

I also love the 996 headlights. I also love the Carrera GT headlights, and if anything, the 996 mark 2 headlights are closer to the GT than the older 993 bug eyes. A Carrera GT with old bug eyes would have been fugly.

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He meant to say that a used 996 that is worth $50K is selling for much less making the 996 a very good used car value. Obviously you couldn't have bought a new 996 for $50K.

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Ah. Makes sense.

Don't forget the MY03 and MY04 C4S side rear panel vents, really sets this car apart from all the other Porsche models, regardless of year (except Turbo).

+1 My dream is for 997 gt3RS prices to tank! I want one!

Any logic how designation numbers are chosen or is it just random? Curious.

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Sure, it's a nice looking 911, but I don't consider it better looking than a 930, which I happen to consider the best looking factory 911 ever produced. No doubt, Niche's car is simply gorgeous, but his is not a stock looking car. The stock 993's, even the Turbos, just don't really get my blood boiling like an original bug-eyed 911 does - especially the 930. Lower a Triple Black 930 a bit, stick some 315's in back and 275's in front, and there's no Porsche that looks more purposeful, imo. Again, I like the 993's, but I still am not a big fan of the front end. It's too rounded. Yes, the hips are nice, but the front end drags it down, imo.

Javier always love seeing your car. I personally think my favorite 911 variants in terms of aesthetics are the 935 in full moby dick mode(ok so that doesn't count), and on the street the 930 (turbo) flatnose. The 930 widebodies are all great, even with lamps! And a 964 widebody? I'll take it. Myfavorite thing about a 993 is that it looks like a 959 from the front. They aren't my first choice at all. I do love the Ruf turbo 993 variants, as well as the factory turbo and turbo S. If I could get that sort of tailbase on a 996 997 I would. One day when I have a much bigger garage I will likely put one of the 993 RUF cars in it. I do love the way the mk2 996 looks, so aggressive and modern (but I'm a slant fan), however I don't love the mk2 aero/gt3 rear wing. I think the 997 C4, turbo, and GT3RS look great as well, and wouldn't kick the narrowbody out of my garage either, provided I am permitted some body colored trim rings to sharpen up the lamps a little! But I don't think I'd ever sell my 996, that's me though, I don't sell things. For those of you who believe the 996 has depreciated much more rapidly than the 997, you're out of touch with reality. No 911 has depreciated as rapidly as the 997. Run the auction numbers against the MSRPs, compare sales prices of 2005 997s today (not ask, settle, auction) against historical sales prices of 1999 cars in 2003, then depreciate against MSRPs. If you'd rather not do the math, there was an extensive, comprehensive and empirical post on this topic a month or two ago. If fashion is ephemeral, supply and demand are inexorable. That means that even though the 997 is in many ways superior in terms of creature comforts, engine options, and in the eyes of many interior and exterior styling, a mk1 997 will be worth 20K or less in 2015, 9-10 years old. CPO 997s like this one http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...5&aff=national are settling for under 40, and out of warranty cars mid 30s all day http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...5&aff=national . Don't believe me? Get a 1 day Galves subscription. In 2006, you could not buy a 4-5 year old Mk2 996 this cheaply, and the MSRPs on the 997 with the same typical options as the mk2 996 is generally 10% greater. So as far as I'm concerned, the 997 is technically the best value today for me, as I'm going to drive it a lot, care about warranty coverage, etc. Would I sell my 996? Not unless I had to, but then I have trouble selling anything. And there are plenty of 993s, mostly the ones which were driven, which are incredibly affordable to acquire: http://www.ecarlist.com/cgi-bin/show...10098&d_id=947 Well, on that note, I'm back in NY tomorrow, hope the weather cooperates with me driving the P! And I hope you guys have a Happy Thanksgiving!

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RUF 993 Turbo R = dream. Yours is simply stunning...

Thanks guys! I love them all! I would love a RUF CTR2 Sport one day!

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I like your post, but you are leaving out other exterior factors, like economic conditions, which extremely affect prices. John

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I will second (or third) that. I agree the Mk1 996 headlights are the worst looking of all of them, but they are kinda of like a bulldog or pugs, so ugly it almost makes them desirable and unique.

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You can't leave them out, they're baked in, but so are other things like exchange rates which completely flip that argument over. But I agree, 997s would be worth more in contemporaneous dollars without a credit crisis than with, as would 996s. Again it's just supply and demand. Access to capital and credit affects supply over very long time scales, but impacts demand very rapidly. Which is why I got a 2009 5 series BMW for practically nothing in February. Either way, it's very easy to plot. Basically both models depreciated almost exactly in line with their respective relative production volumes, and the acceleration in the Mk1 997s depreciation over the 996 on a years in service basis is attributable to the fact that they were released at the very height of the credit bubble, and are being returned at or near the depths of the bust. This doesn't mean that the 997 didn't depreciate faster, the asterisk doesn't change the dollars and cents of it, or the notion that buying a 2005 or 2006 997 today presents a better value than buying a 2002 or 2003 996 in 2006 did, and that's without adjusting for the value of the dollar, American or Canadian. I've bored enough of you already, but if you need a nap see: https://rennlist.com/forums/6944571-post16.html

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I personally like the MKI lights better than the MKII, simply because the MKII lights are just MK I lights that drip onto the bumper, in an elongated oval instead of straight across. If you must have traditional round headlights, both 996 variants fail, period! I personally don't care.

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Those headlights are also the last Porsche headlights to win Le Mans outright. Regarding the body lines, with the 996 Porsche kind of brought back the "bathtub" lines of the 356. -- Part of the reason for that is more room needed under the rear deck to support the water-cooling, so the overall lines really had to be modifed with the first 996. (and yes, I love Javier's Ruf, too!)

I think they look similar.

Awesome shots Dan! What are the odds of finding the same color 993 AND staying at the Overlook Hotel? You are the caretaker, you've always been the caretaker! May I be so bold as to say the 997 has nicer lines?

I agree, I think the 997 looks better...

What it shows you is that the design of the 997 was the work of the marketing department. I think it's a very pretty car, but I can't get past the idea that Porsche did this as a response to consumer whining. What I've always liked about Porsche is that they do pretty much what they damn please and don't pay much attention to focus groups. The 996, whether you love it or hate it, was their genuine effort to reimagine the 911. The 997 is a crowd pleaser.

Every time I see a 993 and 997 together, I'm amazed how huge the 997 looks.

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The 997 has a serious J Lo butt compared to the 993, but if you look at them merely from the side, you can see the family resemblance.

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LOL - just like they call the current cars 911s now they're going to start calling them 993s. I wouldn't put it past the marketing guys to do that either. Just a question...why does it say Carrera on the engine lid but virtually no one, marketing guys included, call the cars Carreras?

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It's easier just calling them a 911. Generally, the term "997" is used for today's cars to differentiate them from the "996" cars. It's extremely vague to refer to these cars as a "Carrera" as that can mean everything from a 356 to a 1984 3.2 litre Carrera, to a 964, 993, 996, 997, and soon, a 991. The Carrera name on the decklid is all driven by marketing. For many years Porsche complied with typical European car naming convention--using numbers, e.g., 911, 912, 914, 500SL, 504, 300SEL, etc. Porsche began adopting American naming schemes mostly when they introduced the Boxster--you really don't call them a 986 or 987 in public because no one would know what you were talking about, which is similar to a Carrera GT. No one calls them a 980, and no one calls a Cayenne a 955, nor a Panamera a 970. If you can't clearly identify your car to (1) another Porsche enthusiast or a (2) non-Porsche person within about 2 seconds you've already lost them. Porsche has long considered the "911" a cash cow and as such, is wise to simply call it a 911 or a "New 911" in marketing material. Today's cars are so far removed from the 2.0 litre 901 of 1963-4 that they are "911s" in name only--and in the rear engine hanging off the rear concept.

the back of my 40th 996 says "911". Maybe I should add 911996RMS

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911 just became a brand through common usage. Not the first time that's happened in the marketing world, by a long shot. I kind of respect that they've never actually badged the car that way other than for the commemorative edition. I use 996 the same way I used to use E36 or L322: to identify my car to fellow enthusiasts. To lay people, it's a 911 because that's what they understand.

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Don't agree. By calling the cars Carreras you would at least narrow it down to those cars built since 1984. Less confusing than 911 which goes all the way back to 1965. I guess I was asking the question rhetorically. I well know why no one refers to the cars as Carreras, and that's because it's even more offensive than calling them all 911s. I for one was livid back in 1984 when they plonked the sacred Carrera name on the back of a normal 911. Last I understood, the Carrera name was reserved for the Renn cars. I suspect even the guys at Porsche feel a bit stupid referring to a plushy cabriolets etc by the Carrera name, and that's why nobody uses it. When the GT3 was introduced it would have been obvious to call it the Carrera, but !nnnooo! - they couldn't because they sold the name out 15 years earlier for who knows what reason and they ended up having to name this otherwise brilliant new sports car after a generic racing class instead of a historic string of victories. I know it is a pain in the **** for non enthusiasts to keep track of Porsche model designations. I have a hard time remembering which 5 series BMW is which too, and it took me a while to figure out that my own Audi is a B5-A6. So yeah I understand the reason for calling them 911s, but why did they have to ruin the Carrera name and why do they keep on doing it? Uugh - sorry for the rant - carry on.

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Simple: $$

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Hey! My '84 Cab resents that cushy remark. It's a stiff and lightweight track car these days.

Ever say to you buddy "wow, she's great" and he returns with a "meh, she doesn't do much for me" and you just can't believe it!!?? This is sort of how this goes. When I got my 996 a couple of years ago I was actually a bit unsure of the styling - being a traditionalist somewhat - but when I see the reflection in the shop windows when I drive by, oh my! That ' washed stone' profile is absolutely gorgeous! Now I still like all the older models but the 996 has really grabbed me. Headlights? I really don't see the big deal. Honestly I don't!! but what a car!

There is no big deal. Enjoy your fine cars and think nothing of this crap. We're all still very fortunate to be driving ANY Porsche--it beats the alternative!

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I can attest to that ^ !