IMS Failure on my '04 C4S - with a silver lining in my black cloud

Friday a week ago I suffered the dreaded IMS failure on my 40K mile vehicle. While I was driving down the highway wanting to enjoy what I expected to be one the last really beautiful days in western PA I felt the engine "buck" and then a loud set of rattling in the back. Best description that I've heard and agree with is that there was a bucket of bolts rattling around in the engine compartment (I subsequently learned that those bolts were ball bearings.) Pulled off on the side of the road and turned off the engine. Flipped open the boot and looked in - from top and bottom. Not sure what I was expecting to see but it all looked normal. Restarted the car and it sounded like normal. Continued to my office parking garage - parked - and went into the office for a few hours. Planned to meet a client for lunch, pulled out and started to drive away. A very nice guy driving a pickup pulled up beside me and told me that I had a big puddle of something dark at the back of my car when I pulled out (didn't see it myself - I approached the car from the front.) I nicely thanked the guy and drove directly to my local dealer located along the lovely ohio river. The service manager greeted me as usual with a smile and asked how my day was. �I suspect that you�re going to tell me, here�s what happened�� After my short story the manager said �oh, that�s not good.� I asked �how not good is it?� �Really not good. I suspect you have an IMS failure. If that is correct, you�ll nee a new engine. We�ll need to put it up on the lift to confirm.� �What will this cost?� I asked. �Well, a new crate engine is 12K cost. Since your car is 18 months out of warranty Porsche would typically not cover all of the engine replacement cost. We�ll need to see what they will cover.� �You have been a really good customer, you�ve been diligent with services, we�ve done everything by the book, you�re here between every one of your track events for inspections, fluid changes, etc. � we�ll go to bat for you and see what we can make happen.� I made 2 calls � one to cancel my lunch meeting and the 2nd to my wife asking that she come retrieve me and buy me lunch. Later that afternoon the service manager called to confirm � the engine was history. The weekend came and went. Our track committee had our yearly wrap-up review on Saturday morning and our region had our yearly black-tie affair that Saturday evening. I told my story of woe and stated that I was starting to collect donations to my �engine replacement fund.� Monday I received a call from the service manager. He asked me if I�d be interested in upgrading to the X51 package. I asked how much the additional engine cost would be � he said approx $2,500. I said, �Hell, if I�m already in for at least 12K what�s another 2.5K � Sure, let�s do it.� He completed the appropriate paperwork necessary for Porsche and we then began the waiting to hear back. Tuesday morning came and went � no word. Tuesday afternoon as well. At one point in the afternoon I received a call from a buddy who just rebuilt his 1978 911 engine to the tune of 18K. Wednesday morning I received a call from the service manager. �Really great news, Porsche will cover 100% of the engine cost. They agreed to that level if we agreed to provide the labor at cost which we will. You have been a good customer for a long time and we went to bat for you.� Long story now short � I have an X51 engine on order � which will be installed over the next 2 weeks. The total cost to me (upgraded engine, labor, new clutch, fluids, etc.) is looking to land around $5K. An X51 option for $5K � I�m a happy camper! Sometimes dark clouds do have silver linings!

wow...great to see them step up. You're going to love the new engine, the X-51 is a great upgrade too congratulations.

Thanks - looking forward to experiencing the additional power.

No joke, that's an awesome story w/ an awesome ending! What part of Western PA are you at? My fiancee is from the Greenville area (between Pittsburgh and Erie). ///Michael

An IMS failure...how rare. WTF? I'm going to bar myself from this site. Too stressful!

wow, best possible out come, congrats.

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Ahhh, many times I have had this same thought. Yet, I return, day after day. Here we have a wonderful contra-tail to the numerous ones of woe and devil-driven dealerships. I love a fairy-tale-come-true story now and then. Keeps my hopes up against the tide. If my time comes, I will test the 20 years and 7 new cars relationship I have with my local dealer twixt the St. Johns River and the Atlantic Ocean. I hope they offer me that same X51 package at the same final price.

Nice! You are a lucky man.

lucky! congrats! enjoy the x51! I guess we should call IMS failures as X51 upgrades.

Note to self: if I ever hear that "bolts in a can" rattle noise, shut off the engine and don't restart it! No matter how inconvenient it is! So glad your dark cloud has a silver lining!

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been there - get over it....... WTG on your bad day - thats a silver lining if ever there was one

Just goes to show that sometimes paying the little extra a dealer charges for service can pay off big. We've had similar experiences with our Toyota minivan. We use one dealer to fix and maintain everything on it. Ironically we bought it from a rival dealer. But the dealer on the maint. side gets just about anything I want fixed, fixed. He always finds a way so that I don't have to pay a dime. He must charge the hell out of Toyota when he bills them. Good story and good to see Porsche do the right thing as motors should last more than 40K freaking miles. Oh yeah on the X51 upgrade.

Nice story racerman911. Seems like your dealer went to bat for you.(Sewickley Motors dealership??)

Nice! I never saw an IMS failing story where the car was out of warranty, and the dealer actually convinced Porsche to foot the bill. My car only has 21k miles, so I have another 20k before I have to worry - right!

I wish more stories had endings like this but am afraid this is the exception and not the rule. We're all really happy this has turned out about as well as could be hoped for.

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I would not consider dealer prices a "little extra."

FWIW - I was talking to one of our top local Porsche mechanics the other day about extending my warranty... In the discussion he said the 2004 C4S was the most common car he's seen with IMS failures. Didn't know why. Anyway congrats! The X51 will be incredible. Glad to see Porsche stand behind their product despite their financial woes.

Outstanding example of a dealer who's willing to go to bat for you... this, unfortunately seems to be the exception. Here you go: Buy a good extended warranty and give your business to a strong independent shop who will die for you, rather than paying exorbitant dealer prices in the hope that they will come through for you in the future. My money is always on personally accountable, small business instead of sterile, corporate conglomerates. With these cars, return on investment is excellent with an ext warr policy on just the small, boring repairs but not being paranoid every time you fire your engine is the real reward.

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It is amazing that someone would not only not shut the engine off right away but to restart the engine and continue to drive the car for some distance. 'course, maybe the thing is to ensure if the noise does occur to drive the car enough so the engine is definitely toast vs. saving the engine and having an engine that could be rebuilt. However, not everyone I'm afraid -- and which too many posts here and elsewhere have justified my fear -- will have Porsche and his Porsche dealer step with a new engine with car out of warranty. If only... Sincerely, Macster.

Glad it worked out the way it did but what the hell. 40K and IMS failure? What crappy service life. Porsche should be ashamed of themselves. I read this stuff and think better sell my car before It lets go. For my car and mileage if it did its totaled. Such a fun car to drive but waiting for the other shoe to hit the floor sucks!

doesn't matter, but are you absolutely sure it's the IMS? I"m wondering if your valve seats broke apart like they did mine. My car has done a number of DEs as well but maintained very rigorously. I'd be curious

I'm in Moon Township - within 4 miles of the Pittsburgh Airport. Yep, Sewickley is the dealer that went to bat for me - great group. I'm pretty active in ARPCA and work with the dealer on many "joint activities." That being said, a very large contigent of our club consistently has great experiences with Sewickley. They have worked hard to build the trust of their customer base and it shows. There is a really strong two-way street that exists here. Not to make this too much a sales pitch for this organization I'll mention that there are a few local independent shops in the region that are thought of very highly - no slight to them. I'm not positive that it was the IMS - taking for granted based upon the dealer's description.

Interesting perspective around frequency that an IMS failure occurs. My service manager says that he has seen only a couple of failures in the 996 engine. Not sure the total volume is (Porsche has been pretty tight-lipped on the subject) but I think the Internet has played a large part in creating the signficiant awareness... Question - how many on this board has had either an IMS or RMS failure that has "totaled the engine"? Just curious? An example of really bad engineering... I owned a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan that I bought in 2000 (Yes - I purchase all vehicles used) and every 2 years (like clockwork) I needed to repair / replace signficiant pieces in the air conditioning system - the compressor, the front and rear condensor, etc. for about $2K a pop. I'm not the only one in my family - my father and cousin both have also had failures on the same model (within a year or 2 of mine.) Total cost during the life of the car in my posession? $8K. Anything ever picked up by Chrysler? Nada! This is an example of a really ****ty design that was propigated really broadly. My daily drivers will go until they are worth almost nothing - got rid of the 1997 caravan in 2007 with 200K miles and only able to get $500 for the vehicle (needed more air conditioning work done and the main computer unit failed - no speedo, etc.) We replaced it with a 2004 BMW 325 (wife chose the car and she loves it!)

My IMS failed on my 99 996 @ 20K miles but it was well within the warranty. I was astonished (in a very good way) that Porsche offered unsolicited to swap the whole car out for a brand new 2001 which had a sticker nearly 20K above my 99 (including special Slate Grey paint)....which happened to be still wrapped in plastic sitting on the dealer lot (Barrier Motors, Bellevue, WA) at the time (8 miles on the odo). Incredible given that I was already the 2nd owner and had imported the car from Canada to the US (Seattle)....just the two model year evolution felt like a night and day better car. Because of the big delta in options I did have to pony up $5K but is was totally worth it. Absolutley outstanding customer service in my eyes warranty or not. They even let me move my aluminum gauge cluster, shifter and ebrake over to the new car. Then....at 1100 miles the rear main seal went on the new car (which was the 3rd time over both cars. I again complained and the regional rep gave me a new factory PSE setup installed for free. Can't say enough about how well they took care of me but that was years ago and the cars were basically new. I'm astonished they still step up now and again on these failed motors.....nice surprise for the lucky few.

sounds like you did well, and was before they discovered this was not an isolated incident and that this was a major design flaw. i know lots of guys who bury there head in thwe sand over this issue. The part of the original story that caught my attention was the bit about the buddy spending 18K to rebuild a SC engine .... either I call Bull or they guy got TOTALLY taken for a ride. You could almost buy to complete SC's for that. I could belive 8- 12 at the utmost max, and I even think that is insane .. 18 ? no way ..

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I had work done on my 1960 bugeye sprite and a 1968 912 in the late sixties, early seventies. Lived in Sewickley, worked for Equibank in the city. Glad to hear they did a little extra for you.

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Damn that is wild luck! Taking your old used car and giving you a brand new one? Wow!

Do not know if my friend was taken for a ride. Started with a broken stud - progressed from there. Could try and get the breakdown of the work done. Just a note - in my opinion my friend is no fool... May not have been how YOU might choosen to invest.

Best of luck with the new engine. What does the X51 package provide in the way of total HP on the 996 models? I know on the early 997s it boosted output from 355 to 381.

Fantastic story! You are going to love the X51 package... I truly enjoy it on my 40th Anniversary 911. Dan: In the 996 the X51 package increases power output from 325 to 345 hp (257 kW). From my perspective, and experience of both on the track, I would say the 996 w/X51 feels very close in acceleration and throttle response to the 997.1 S.

Great story and great support from your dealer!

" I was talking to one of our top local Porsche mechanics the other day about extending my warranty... In the discussion he said the 2004 C4S was the most common car he's seen with IMS failures. Didn't know why. " Interesting comment on the 04 C4S....sounds pretty fishy. Consumer Report Use Car Guide reports the 04 996 as having the best reliability record of the 996 production line. We should ask if track days increase engine failures. Why would a 996 04 C4S be more prone to engine IMS/engine failure. The 03 enhancements to the 3.6 cams, pistons, variocam etc should make it more "reliable" not less per your mechanics "observations". No one wants to be replacing engines to the tune of 15 K if out of warranty. Is there anything one can do besides change the oil at 5K (5W-40), not track the engine, run the car regularly, not lug the engine , shift properly, etc to avoid the dreaded replacement engine. And of couse the briliant statement "run it like you stole it" all the way to the dealer for your engine swap.

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Time for you to buy a lottery ticket...

I certainly track my vehicle. Not sure why that should make such a difference between years (but may make a difference between models - the air-cooled model's IMS seem to be very reliable by comparison...) My perspecitve is that these engines have been designed to be run hard. With the # of water-cooled porsches running at the PCA events I attend it strikes me as a bit more of "bad luck" with a known failure than specfic causality. Replace "Porsche" with almost any other manufacturer - like Chevy (for Corvette.) In 2008 we had 2 corvette engines (both current models) disintegrate on-track in 1 weekend. Both were driven by very experienced drives. One was right on the pit staight @ Mid-Ohio. Very exciting - fireball-type fireworks & parts being shot everywhere. We went out to collect parts for 15 minutes. Can you imagine the discussion with GM in getting warranty coverage on this "event"?

IMS Failure: When mine goes out I will have it towed to Sewickley! 99C2

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I didn't think the air cooled engines used an intermediate shaft?

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They do.

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As I comb through my poor old brain, it occurs to met that the difference with the M96 is not that it has an intermediate shaft, but that the shaft is unsupported at one end (and much longer).

Basically the aircooled 911 has the same shaft to drive the valve train as the M96, but we refer to it as a "lay shaft" most of the time.. The 547 4 cam Carrera engine also used the same style of layshaft but equipped it with bevel gears to drive the exhaust cams. Here is a pic of a layshaft from a Carrera engine from my 4 cam archive The biggest difference lies in the fact that all the predecessors of the M96 use a plain bearing to support the layshaft (IMS) instead of a roller bearing, like the M96.

Jake, I think saying the "same shaft" is oversimplifying it. People would be misled to believe that Porsche used to make good intermediate shafts and then made bad ones. They made a fundamental design change, it seems to me, from a short intermediate shaft supported by bearings at both ends, to a long intermediate shaft that floated at one end. That's what strikes me as the biggest difference. And, frankly, it was understanding that difference that sold me on your product. (Images poached from Renntech)

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what is #28 ?

What a great story. If my 996 ever experiences this much-discussed situation, I plan to make the same conversion to the X51.

"I certainly track my vehicle. Not sure why that should make such a difference between years (but may make a difference between models - the air-cooled model's IMS seem to be very reliable by comparison.". The 03-04 996 models got new crankshafts, new pistons and new connecting rod's. Not sure if any of these would decrease the engine swap. Jake, if given the choice to choose a model year for the 996, which would you choose based on your experience?

Just a guess: as far as IMS is concerned, all 996 and Boxters line up for failure statistics. My 02 C4S is fine at 94 Km.

Congrats on having a stupendous dealer! The one here seems good and while I sure don't want to test HOW good I'm happy to hear that your diligence and loyalty was rememebered and recognized! What's the name of the Dealership again?

Does the X51 have IMS issuess as well? Glad to hear it all worked out for you!