RMS and IMS. Is it worth the risk

Hello All, Have read much about the potentially devastating financial impact related to either of these issues. Just found a sweet '99 C2 with only 28K miles. Is it worth the risk of purchasing? Especially since the IMS risk is greater with low miles ! I realize this is an issue that has been beaten to death, but I still can't get a clear view of my best move here. Thanks.

It has been beaten to death, but.... I say if you find a sweet car at a sweet price, factor in another $12k as a worst-case cost, and enjoy! Otherwise, I am pretty sure most 996's do NOT have IMS failure, so if you're a gambling man...you get the idea!

Thanks AndyK ! I've been surveying many sites to try to establish a fair price for said car. Dealer is asking 27K. Any known source of realistic worth for a '99 C2 with 28K miles? Is KBB accurate? Thanks

I'd say buy it and budget for the IMS upgrade. For the extra money it'll give you piece of mind and then just run the wheels off it.IMO

On the other hand check out the thread with the 996's with upward of 145K miles.

Yes. Porsche ownership is never inexpensive, no matter how good a deal you get on the car.

Quotes source post: 8787877

I have spoken with a number of reputable Porsche tuners who have said that the link between low mileage and IMS failure is nothing more than misinformation and myth propagated by fear...contrary to the claims of many. They almost all said there are too few instances of it to know anything for certain and that they have seen IMS failure in cars with low and high mileage. That said, none of them dismissed it as immaterial and all reminded me that it is a real risk...especially if it should happen to you! FWIW, my C4S Cab is being shipped to me tomorrow and I've decided that the $400 cost of the IMS Guardian is cheap insurance if/until I decide to opt for or am required to install an LN retrofit. -Eric

i believe both will need to be replaced at some time so make sure to plan accordingly. if you like it, and feel it is a good price then you should purchase it and have fun. everyone here has purchased one....

Is there a particular draw/appeal for this '99? Seems you could find an '02 (with 3.6 and some say better styling) for the same money? It's often reported on the intenet.. find the Newest and Nicest example you can afford. Is the appeal the low miles? well, unless you park it, they will only get higher. A 12-13 y/o car with 28000 miles? thats just so unappreciated in my book.

buy and be happy... You can watch the oil filter and keep the cash set aside if you need to deal with the IMS.

There are many false assumptions, much misinformation, and tons of fear-mongering about the IMS issue. Having said that, I had my (low mileage) IMS and RMS upgraded proactively because I would rather spend a couple of grand foolishly than try to save money and risk the possibility of a $25,000 repair. Many here feel differently.

Listen, If you are going into the tranny for a clutch or other service item... Then, you are being foolish "not to spend the extra $1000.00" for the IMS/RMS upgrades... BUT, If you are pissing away $1000.00's of dollars on "False Assumptions, misinformation and tons of fear-mongering" before you actually need to get inside the clutch. Then you are just as much a fool as those who spread the above fears... Just my 2 cents!

Quotes source post: 8788013

Great to hear your C4S is on its way....I know you put quite a bit of effort into this and you have been really patient, so truly great news that it paid off and soon you will be enjoying it. As to the IMS Guardian do you really think of it as insurance? Given all of the traffic here about it and the guarded info, slipping dates, credit towards a repair at a proprietary shop should it NOT prevent a total failure, and that shop seeming quite back logged to perform the complete rebuild should one need the warranty credit..... just not so sure. Perhaps when more is released, including the detection of symptons of other potential failures, it will be easier to determine. In the meantime enjoy your new ride and I know many of are anxiously awaiting news of its arrival!

I was in a similar situation a few months ago and decided to purchase a 01 C4 with 21K for around the same price. First thing I did was replace the IMS and RMS. Wasted money? I decided that it was the price of ownership. No regrets. Oooops I owe some photos.

Quotes source post: 8788254

I'm watching the information on this very closely. For the time being, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I don't mean to oversell my own faith in this TBD product. I'm not yet sold on it being the be all end all of IMS problems but I also haven't (yet) dismissed it because they've run into some production issues. If August turns into November turns into January turns into...well, you get the idea, then I will start to lose faith. At this point, I'm dismissing the delay to a (bad) decision to share the knowledge of its existence to the world WAY too soon. When I first started reading the thread, I predicted a delay...at least in my own mind. On this board and on just about any enthusiast board, there are those who are undying in their defense of certain companies and those who malign them for their very existence. I have no experience whatsoever with Flat6Innovations or Jack Raby. I am neither a devoted follower nor a cynic but I am intrigued by his device enough to consider it and maybe I should have said that I am "hopeful" it is insurance. His statements about a correlation between mileage and IMS certainly contradict the statements of some people with whom I've spoken but, as I said in my earlier post, nobody contradicts the fact that there is such a thing as IMS failure and that it is catastrophic. Certainly for a few hundred bucks, assuming it works, it's cheap insurance even if you/I wouldn't ship my car to GA for the retrofit. I'm looking forward to reading the review in Excellence when it comes out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's the real thing. -Eric P.S. Thanks for the congratulations!! I'll be sure to share pictures when it arrives.

"Then you are just as much a fool as those who spread the above fears... Just my 2 cents! " Possibly. In my case I have a Tip, so waiting for it to coincide with a clutch replacement was not an option. Whether a placebo or not, I feel I've gotten $2000 worth of peace of mind out of the upgrade, but I understand those who disagree.

Quotes source post: 8787877

Why are RMS and IMS issues lumped together one is just an tiny oil leak and the other can cause your engine to need rebuilding.

You're correct. Some people think that IMS and RMS issues are the same, but one is a disaster and the other is an inconvenience. They're usually lumped together in discussions because if you're already in there for the IMS, replacing the RMS is just another $30 or so. I promised myself I would stay out of these threads......bad self!

Porsche has improved the RMS seal. If you pull the transmission to retrofit the IMS it makes sense to install the new PTFE RMS seal at the same time....... also AOS and clutch also if needed.

Quotes source post: 8787877

Have you checked the engine code? Several of the MY99 and MY00 996s that I have looked at have reman engines--which may not be a candidate for the LN Eng retrofit. Do you know about the 13mm and 22mm IMSB center nut sizes? I know a 996 owner that paid about $22,000 for his MY99 coupe about a year ago. He put a new clutch in about six months ago and then lost his IMSB while driving on the interstate a few weeks later. He now has about $43,000 into his 996 and has been unable to resell it for $22,000. Not good.

Make your own decision about being proactive. As stated, some owners replace the IMSB right away, others aren't so worried(myself included). $27k seems a little high based on KBB and Edmunds prices, but you decide if it's a good deal or not. Good luck.

Quotes source post: 8788479

I don't want to take this too far off topic, but I have to ask. Why would someone try to sell the car AFTER putting $43,000 into it? That just makes no sense to me. If I were faced with a catastrophic engine failure on my 996, I can only see 2 options. One, fix the car and drive it for many years to come in hopes of getting some use out of my money. Or, two, sell the car as a roller, minimizing my loss and moving on.

Regarding the IMSG: You guys need to remember that the development has not yet been advertised anywhere.. We do not even have any information supporting it on our website, except the pre-order page. At the present time the only people that know about this product are the readers here at Rennlist and the staff at Excelence Magazine as well as three distributors on different Continents. What started a post here one day was a simple statement that I made saying that we had devised a method and device to warn of an impending IMS Bearing failure... From there a reader started a thread asking what it may be and that turned into 33 pages of content here on this forum. Had it not been for that post no one would know about the IMSG today except the Excellence Staff and our Distributors. It was a mistake on our behalf to ever mention this development, now that we have and we gained pre-purchasers we are doing everything we can to fill these orders with a properly manufactured and effective product. So there is no secrecy, if it weren't for the post here on RL you would have opened your Excellence Magazine in November and the product would have magically been featured there.. Thats the same thing that so many people are going to be suprised with that don't subscribe to posts here. We are building the first 200 units right now and will be filling orders ASAP. The IMSG won't magically fix an engine, it just warns the driver that something isn't normal.. Just like a low fuel level indicator.. That low fuel level indicator does not keep the car from running out of gas if the driver lacks judgment. Anyone here who has ever developed something from scratch can understand what we are doing; to others thats incomprehensible. We want the US media to share this first, even if systems were ready to ship today we'd still hold off till the debut in Excellence-

To the OP's initial question: in my opinion I wouldn't focus so much on the possibility of IMSB failure as I would on leveraging the crap out of the bad press to hammer on the price. Last months issue of Exellence magazine had a market price survey on the 996 and the article pretty clearly states to avoid the 99 model year as they are more prone to issues.... use that and let the dealer know how much you are willing to pay to help him out and get it off of his lot. It is a qualified fact that some of these engines do blow up, it does happen, I saw 2 in the dealers shop (coincidentally they claim that they are the only 2 they ever had in their shop). That said, for some reason the rate of IMSB failures has never been quantified, even the guy who makes a living off of these cars and claims to capture all kinds of data won't say anything to quantify the issue. He has his legitimate reasons for not sharing the data, I'm not disrespecting him, I am just saying that none of us knows what odds we are up against. As to the RMS, as other have said, it is a seal and although it won't cause engine failure, still it is not a cheap fix as the transmission needs to be removed to replace it. The IMS is also a seal that can leak but it is not as prevelant of a problem as the RMS. The good news is that the IMS, RMS and even the IMSBearing can be replaced at the same time the transmission is out, makes it a pretty good repair value in my opinion. Happy shopping - don't let the stress about a machine stop you from enjoying the experience.

BTW- to the OP: You need to talk to someone who had the same question as you but then experienced an 18,000.00 bit of bad luck. I have the perfect person you can talk to, he might be able to shed some light on the subject from a very real point of view. He only owned his car 3 weeks.

Quotes source post: 8788796

Unfortunately, my PO recently replaced the IMS and RMS seals and the clutch without replacing the IMS bearing. I can't speak for anyone else but that's all I ever understood the product to be and that's all I'm looking for short of just replacing the darn thing! lol -Eric

Quotes source post: 8788871

To that end - if the car the OP is considering doesn't have the IMSB fail on his drive home, and if the engine has not already been replaced with one that won't accept the IMSB replacement, could he simply make the few thousand dollar investement and expect a reasonably reliable ride as a result? And while we are on the topic, because I will be having the IMSB replacement done, is there an expected life of the LNE bearing? I thought I read that LNE stated the the IMSB should be considered a 40k mile maintenance item and I am not sure what that means..anything from inspect to replace every 40k miles? The fact that your work and that of LNE delivers a solution makes it possible for folks to receive a great value on a great car that could be have it's reliability increased for about the cost of good 3rd party extended warranty.

Quotes source post: 8788796

Which brings up the point -- there are vendors who sell independent 'used car' warranties on cars under something like 8-10 yrs old. Snake oil or worth considering? Maybe that's a conversation for a separate thread. -Eric

Quotes source post: 8788871

It is precisely these type of spot reports that inflame so many folks. It is one data point, what is missing is how many people have had their car for three weeks that did not have this bad luck? I don't think anyone on this board disputes that IMSB's fail - as I said before - that is a qualified piece of information. I haven't read anything from anyone that said IMSB failures are an urban myth. If I ask our GP doctor how many people he sees who have cancer his answer will obviously be less than when I ask the same question to our Oncologist. If you don't believe that your house could burn down just talk to someone whose house burned down. Then sit in your living room with 911 on speed dial and a fire extinguisher. That would be a heck of way to live eh?

Well if the Guardian isn't going Fed Ex until the Excellence article in November, there could be an abundance of the weeping and gnashing of teeth senerio for those who store their vehicles during inclement weather. I'm thinking some have either shortened their driving pleasures or refrained altogether since the plague struck, allowing the possible IMS wound to fester. As for me I'm tired of driving without music with the cab top up so no one sees me wearing a stethoscope thats been Gorilla Glued to the engine.

Quotes source post: 8791061

If a car is being stored, the IMS Bearing can't fail. For those who store their cars, they'd be looking to install the system in March- April when the cars are broken out for driving season.

FYI: Not every 996 is a candidate for low cost IMS bearing replacement. Call LN Eng or Flat6 before buying any car with M96 engine if you plan to have the clutch/IMSB replaced for ~$3000. The cost to replace the IMSB with a stock or upgraded unit in a 996 with reman engine can be $$$.