Ready to buy MY05 C4S - suggested price?

I'm considering a C4S with 14,000+ miles that's in Houston and the dealer is motivated to move the car due to the end of the month. Both Sean (mavthenav) and Tom (himself) were kind enough to do a hands-on look-see at the car and no major negatives were found. The just completed PPI from Pro Technik uncovered a few issues - mostly minor. Front Diff seal is leaking at drive shaft. It's wet, not dripping. ~$1,000 to fix. I plan to get an AM warranty, probably Fidelity as EasyCare just tripled in price, and can get this fixed at a later time. Ignition switch hard to turn. A DIY fix. The car came with PSE based on the original invoice - not present. The front bumper has been repainted/replaced & 1 wheel well has minor repairs. No structural damage present. Wheels need some work and 1 has small bend. Number of rock chips. All DIY for me. The interior needs a good cleaning but nothing too major for 5 YO car. All input appreciated.

That's exciting. Glad you aren't afraid to help stimulate the economy. You can use the PPI items to help get a lower price, or obtain an additional warranty. Bummer about the PSE, as long as the Porsche wasn't in an accident I wouldn't be too worried about the repray. Anyone who owns a Porsche will know that is a very common issue with our 911s. Have the bent wheel fixed or replaced by seller. Good luck...any pics, color?

Pics are on the dealer website. http://www.gillmansubaruhouston.com/...23e09620f0.htm The dealer is willing to drop $2K to cover most of the cost of the AM warranty. Sean & Tom took some pics but mainly to show what's wrong

How comprehensive was the PPI? What about detailed service records and history on the car? Buying from a Subaru dealer would scare me a little. I find it hard to believe it was traded in on a Subie. Auction car I assume?

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Anything a dealer/car seller tells you is intended to get you to buy the car as soon as possible and to pay as much for it as possible. Dealers are always motivated to move cars as soon as possible. It is what they do to make money. Have overrev counters been read? That few miles that many problems I think car's been mistreated and possibly neglected. If one wheel well has repairs car's likely been in acccident. Look at radiators to see if they're different colors, have a different patina from side to side. If wheels scuffed car will need an alignment. Probably never had one at any rate. Brake fluid change. Coolant drain/refill. Might as well have tranny/diff fluids replaced when front diff taken care of. Plugs due to be replaced since they're over 4 years old. Not saying car's not worth owning but don't overlook some significant things that need addressing to bring the car to reasonably good condition. Right now it is in poor condition. Sincerely, Macster.

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The PPI was done by Pro Technik and they came highly recommended from the board. The car was a trade, according to the dealer. They have the window sticker but not the records. According to my local Porsche service guy the car has only seen $240 or so of work at the dealer. The thought on the bumper and wheel well is that it was run into a low curb. No way to tell for sure but the PPI didn't turn up any visible frame work, radiator damage, or paint work other than the bumper. The codes were read and no over-revs (either 1 or 2) were reported. Curb rash doesn't bother me too much but the bent rim is another thing. Based on the above I don't think the car was abused, but maybe neglected a bit. Overall, they rate the car a 9 out of 10 based on the age. If I get it I'd plan on having the 15K service done and fluids changed after the drive from Houston to Indy.

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My comments above in red. As for price, after checking Edmunds, autotrader and Porsche USA, this one seems to be below market at bit. Good luck! And let me know if you make it to Houston soon grab your new ride -td

... front diff is leaking, huh? Thats a pretty detailed PPI.

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No over revs at all. Not even type 1's. I spoke with Steve at Pro Technik and they don't normally do an alignment check as a rule. Based on the inspection and test drive they thought it was OK. I just ran a carfax and this was a single-owner vehicle with no dealer indicated service records. Basically, all that showed up was periodic registration and emissions testing. It doesn't really seem that strange for a vehicle with <15K miles other than the fact that the dealership did see the car several times according to their records.

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Can you get all copies of work done by dealer? I think it's a pretty good deal, nice color, low miles...will the dealer also fix PPI items? GL

For that kind of money you should be able to find one with no paint work. Who know why the front was repainted. The inside looks very unclean for 14k miles, maybe the gray leather. I had 23k on my 2002 911 when I purchased it and it showed little signs of wear. But overall it looks very nice if you could get the price under 40k. There are a lot of 996 out there ready to be sold. I was ready to buy a 2002 with 8k miles and the front was repainted. The deal fell through and ended up getting a 2002 with 23k but in mint condition from a private owner. Best of luck.

Personally, I wouldn't buy that car. And not anywhere close to that price. As Macster said, seems very neglected. And I don't buy the trade-in story. Sounds like they are feeding you a line. If they did get it on trade, I shocked. To much out there to not get the perfect car. I took my time to find the perfect Turbo and did. I passed on ANY car that didn't not have COMPLETE service records and all service done up to date. That car has LOTS of service that should have been done and there is no record of it. Oh, wait, but there is a window sticker? then disregard everything said. She's a winner!

I agree with Chris996 - for nearly $45k the car should be pristine. If you are patient, I'm sure you'll find a car you love for less.

I agree, you have to be patient and wait for the right car when buying a Porsche. They are all so unique.

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I spoke with the servicing dealers a bit ago (Momentum Porsche & North Houston Porsche) and the car has been serviced with oil changes at 11/05, 9/06, 3/08 and 10/08. The rear spoiler was fixed under warranty on 10/08 and an ignition key was replaced at that time as well. A rattle was fixed under warranty shortly after the car was put in service on 10/04. The selling dealer just turned down an offer of $41,470.

To turn down 41.5K is insane. They would be lucky to get that. As far as service. Great on the oil but it is past due for another oil as well as several years past due for brake flush (at minimum it should have had 2) as well as a major service. Pass.

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It was far easier when I bought my Boxster new and got exactly what I wanted.

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+1, like the others have mentioned, this car doesn't show signs of a 14K mile car, walk away, there are plenty of well-cared for , documented C4's out there. this car should be mint, even at $40K

Just for thought, take a look at this C4S on cars.com by a private owner. This is what I would like to hear...and the price is always easier to negotiate with a private owner.

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"The selling dealer just turned down an offer of $41,470." And I repeat: Anything a car dealer/car seller tells you is intended to get you to buy the car as soon as possible and to pay as much for it as possible. That the car has had some oil services at least makes me feel a bit better. The bumper repaint and other signs of body work suggest collision damage/repair. Just because nothing shows up doesn't mean nothing has happened. Even if car has been in minor collision and repaired is no reason to reject it but the repairs need to be such one can't tell. Did the PPI run a paint thickness gage/meter over the body panels? Do you know the market for these cars? Is that $41740 figure ballpark and considering the front diff leak and other things that need doing? No need to answer back. But you should know the answer. Sincerely, Macster.

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They had their paint guy look it over that's all they found. The front bumper had a bit more orange peel is how they spotted it. The checked for tape edges and under the weatherstripping as well. Based on what I've seen on eBay, etc. the price seems reasonable for a low mileage 2005. Most 03's are hitting reserve not met with an asking price of $42K. Some of the 03's are dropping to $39.9K but have 40K+ miles. I'm prepared to walk away if they don't come to their senses by closing time...

you've got previous damage to bumper, wheel well and leaking front diff. This car got hit by or hit something at some point and any warranty company would love to use the "pre-existing condition" to invalidate future claims. What's the old adage? There is no such thing as a cheap Porsche? I'd walk on this one, and I wouldn't buy a 911 which a Porsche dealer wasn't at least willing to certify.

For the market that price seems very high for a 996. In fact I have seen 997's with low mileage and the sport chrono package, which gives you the sport mapping for acceleration, for under $40k. Another option for that $ would be a 996TT, which is a lot more car. I guess what I'm getting at is to make sure you have done your homework before buying, so you have no regrets later. Just my 2 cents. Best of luck with your purchase. Please let us know how it turns out.

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Checking for tape edges and under weatherstripping is good. But their guy? The seller's paint guy? With whom do you think his loyalty lies? And for a shop to let a car go out with more orange peel than factory...? That sounds like something to say to give you the impression the paint guy was "thorough" in his appraisal. Maybe I'm too distrusting but I got this experience the hard way. (Side note on orange peel: My Turbo was repaired after a mule deer collision and an experienced body/paint man spotted the painted panels (new but they had to be painted at teh body shop where I had the car fixed) right away. I asked how he new and he said the newly painted panels has much less orange peel than the other panels.) Not sure eBay the best place to gather market value for these cars. What is the car's trade in value? Use www.kbb.com to look this up. Pay attention to the "condition" selections and be honest in picking the one that applies. Figure dealer's got less than that in the car. Obviously it has spent no money detailing the car and appears it is hoping for a quick turn around sale so it won't have to. More money for the selling dealer. Sincerely, Macster.

I've checked KBB, NADA and Edmunds previously and the trade-in values for a C4S are pretty much all over the place. The car certainly doesn't qualify at either the bottom or the top of the ranges but somewhere in the middle. Ignoring options but taking mileage into account things look like this; Low. | Mid. | High | Retail 33.5 | 38.5 | 40.6 | 44.9 - Edmunds 40.1 | 43.2 | 45.8 | 52.3 - NADA 35.7 | 38.9 | 40.9 | 48.7 - KBB I would guess the dealer is into the car for high 30's to low 40 despite what they're trying to tell as their sob story. That, or they screwed the pooch and paid too much. Frankly, the NADA numbers look totally whacked to me as they're adding almost $8K due to the low mileage instead of the $1600 or so that KBB and Edmunds are using. If anyone has the black book numbers that would really give a better picture. Macster - I'm originally from the Bay Area and more recently from Sunol before moving to Indiana 3 years ago. We actually met at a Babblers Tech Day at Porsche of Fremont several years ago.

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Actually, it was my PPI guy that examined the paint, not the dealer. The same shop also rated the car 9/10 for its age. Let me say that it's truly a royal PITA to shop remotely! Unfortunately, i don't know who did the paint job on the bumper other than it wasn't through a Porsche dealer as the only dealers to have seen the car were the ones mentioned previously - and they only performed regular maintenance & warranty work. At this point it may only be academic anyway as the dealer hasn't called back and I'm not planning on raising my offer. I'm planning on keeping whatever car I do wind up with at least 6 years, maybe longer. The mileage is dictated based on the fact that I would have 125K on my Boxster if I kept it and I'd like no more than 75K or so on the C4S at that same time. This means I need to find something with 30K or less now. Although this one looks pretty tempting.

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I suspect the dealer's got less in the car than $35K. Used cars are very profitable for car dealers. The markup can be 25% or higher. By way of an example: I traded in 06 GTO for $14.5K towards purchase of new 08 Cayman S a year ago last April. The owner of the Porsche dealership also owned a GM dealership down the street from where I traded in the GTO S. So, after a few weeks I went by the GM lot and found my GTO in the used car section being offered at $18999 marked down from $21K. Using these numbers as some kind of ratio the Subie dealer's got $34.4K in the car. Call it $35K. It is the rare dealer that allows -- straight up without smoke and mirrors -- anywhere near low book for trade-ins. (Exceptions happen, sort of: The $14.5K GTO trade in allowance around $1K over low book (KBB BTW) but I suspect the dealer had some money on the new car side to help pump up the trade in allowance cause I was pretty insistent on getting more for the GTO. I was what is known as a trade-in buyer and car dealers are nothing if not accomodating, when it doesn't cost them any and results in a sale.) Most dealers allow less. And it is common enough to have its own descriptive phrase: "back of the book". What this refers to is auction prices. A dealer will seldom (if ever) pay more for a car than he can unload it for at an auction. These places move a lot of car. The one out in Tracy sells 90,000 cars a year. And there are a lot of these facilities around the country. Dealers know the prices of cars. Would you sell a or buy a something as part of your making a living selling/buying these somethings without knowing the price of what you're selling or buying at all times? Now you might argue the Subie dealer got snookered but all this dealer's used car sales manager or used car/trade in appraiser (could be one and the same person) has to do is pick up a black book from his top desk drawer and look up the latest auction prices. If he can't find the book many dealers have close relationships with independent used car lots and all he has to do is pick up the phone and call one and get the price. Granted a Porsche at a Subie dealer is an oddity, but car dealers do not enter into a deal without knowing the numbers. You know you can buy the car for $45K. Do you like the car at $45K? Are you comfortable with its condition? Low miles counts for a something but you want to avoid paying a premium for a low miles car cause as soon as you drive it the premium evaporates. Also, you should take into account what services the car needs. Prices of cars are based on the car's condition and what services it may need. Scheduled services due based on miles or time and maintenance that wear/tear demand the car receive. Generally the rule is to set aside 10% of a car's purchase price for incidentals but to work to find a car that doesn't require you spend that 10% money. So if you pay $45K for this car you could be looking at spending another $4.5K for these incidentials. Now do you still like this car at $49.5K? Only you can determine your comfort level with this car's condition and the deal. I'm sure you'll make the best decision for you. Added: Are you, were you, Tom of Sunol, with the Boxster fitted with a tonneau cover? Sincerely, Macster.

You make very good points Macster. Another point to take into consideration is the fact that the car is at a Subie dealership. If I were the Subie dealership's sales manager, the first thing I would do when looking at taking a Porsche in on trade would be to get a few buy bids from wholesalers or dealers that specialize in Porsche's. I would then factor that into my actual cash value I was allotting for the car. I would not want to have a Porsche on my Subie lot. Let's face it a person looking for a Subie is likely not one that is looking for a Porsche, and most dealers these days want to keep their inventory full of cars they think will sell quickly on their lot. If it was a BMW or other highline lot it would be different. So, with that said, I believe that a couple different scenarios occurred: - Dealer had to put more than the wholesale buy bids into the car to make a deal happen, and owns it for more money than he/she would like - Or when dealer went to wholesale it to his buyers the buyers found out the problems with the car, and the dealer was stuck with it, also resulting in him having more in it than he should. The jist of this is that the dealer will be unable to sell this car at what I would consider to be a fair market value, b/c with his markup(even at a discount) the car is priced too high.

45k is near GT3 territory....Price is a bit high for the issues it has.

With the service it needs the price is pushing 50K which takes you into GT3 and Turbo territory! Sorry, but that car is a high 30's car at most. Be patient, don't be emotional, and the PERFECT car will come it's way in due time.

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We are in close agreement. There are several possible scenarios. The ones you lay out are well thought out. While I do not like to underestimate dealers' and their car buying and selling savvy occasionally mistakes are made. A trade in allowance is made on a car that is not with the benefit of hindsight justified. In short, the dealer has too much money in the car. Ok. But do you think he has $45K in the car? I don't. I still think the dealer has room to move with that $45K asking price. Now the question becomes, has always been I guess, how much room does he have? Also, and this directed to the OP: Just because the dealer paid too much for the car is no reason why you should follow suit. As best I can I try to determine what I think the car's worth given what other similar cars are going for and how quickly they're moving (or not moving), etc. Then I set an upper price and try to buy my 1st choice. Psychology comes into play as a buyer one wants to convey that he is ready to buy now, today and if he fails to make a deal on this car then he'll move on to his next choice and keep on going until he buys a car. The seller must believe that if he sees this buyer leaving the lot a sale is lost to another seller. But if the seller asking too much money, regardless the reason, I walk away. There's always another car. Sincerely, Macster.

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I'm definitely NOT interested at the $45K starting price but at $41.5K I would be, but that included them fixing the bent rim and all the curb rash. The looking I've done for a MY05 C4S has starting prices well above that number and by the time a 6/60 warranty is added it gets back up to the $44.5K range. For comparisons in the Houston area; The Porsche dealership across from the Subi dealer has an '05 C2 w/48K miles listed at $45.9K, but it's a CPO. Porsche of North Houston has a CPO '03 C4S listed at $45.9K with 20K miles. As far as trade-in values go, the local Porsche dealer basically pulled up Edmunds and offered me that when I asked about a month ago. All the above is somewhat moot since they didn't call back. Am I heartbroken? No. If they do call, my price and conditions don't move so I've already started looking again. I may reconsider the '03 CPO at Porsche of Main Line even with 38K miles as they've dropped the asking price to $39.9K and it looks really clean. That would indeed be me. Come May 25th I will have owned my Boxster for 10 years and Babblers will be 10 in June. Wow.

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The dealer was willing to do a deal at $43,270 prior to me having the PPI in hand. Agreed. I think, given the feedback from the PPI and others that I could live with $41.5K and the bumper issue. But, as indicated in the other post, I've already got my sights on 2003 CPO C4S unless the Subi dealer calls me tomorrow. Heck, I could be on a plane Sunday either way!

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If you like this car. If you want this car... Car negotiations hard to do over the phone, but... But offer the Subie dealer $40.5K for the car. If he outright refuses the offer -- and he will -- but if he then doesn't provide you an opportunity to up your offer then as calmly as possible bring the phone conversation to a halt. More likely: If he objects to your offer as being too low -- and he will -- and if he wants to know where on God's green earth you came up with that outrageous number -- mention the other cars you have found and researched. Cite the pros of these other cars: Newer; color; options; condition; CPO warranty; closer; or further away (but handy to some family member you would like to visit when you come down to pick up the car; or and this probably the best there are other dealers in his area with these similar cars for sale. Let this dealer over the phone let him hear you shuffling papers as you mention these other cars. Tell him of course you think you could buy any of these other cars for less than the listed price. Then tell him how many similar cars you have found around the area. (The whole country cause you're ready to go where you can make your deal.) Don't lay it on too thick cause dealer will wonder if his car so bad compared to these other cars why are you still talking to him. But you like this car for some reason and thought you'd try one more time to buy it at a *fair* (stress this word) market price. If the dealer still balks -- and he will -- but gives you a chance to raise your offer, don't come right back with your new higher offer. Take your time. You're on the phone of course but within phone "earshot" shuffle some papers. Type some keys on the keyboard. Mumble some numbers like your running some numbers through the calculator. Take some minutes. A couple is ok. 5 might be pushing it. (Better if you're there in person cause you can go outside and make a phone call and really put on a show.) Then come back directly on the phone and with some reluctance, some hesitation, a false start maybe, announce you can up your offer some. Then up it by $250. Now your price for the car is $40.750K. If the seller balks, take some more time. No need to work the phone thing again. But don't come right back. After the right amount of time, again some hesitation and deliberation bump your offer by $125. I believe your offer will be accepted and you've bought the car. Be sure you get a fax or something concrete in writing with the car's correct VIN, price, etc on it, cause you might fly to the car only to have your "deal" forgotten or someone overruled it cause of who knows what reason. Dealers can make up any reason they need to try to get you to up your offer once you're there and sort of committed. Like I said hard to do a deal over the phone. If you can arrange it, fly down and try to do the deal in person. Budget a day maybe two: Weekend if dealers there open for business on Sunday. But if your offer not accepted there's always another car. I do like CPO cars. Is that the "new" CPO? Since IIRC sometime around 2008 the CPO warranty changed to be more like the new car warranty in what's covered. And remember price not fact only an opinion. And remember this: There's always another car. Sincerely, Macster.

I have an account with Galves.com. From what I have heard, but still trying to verify, the data is very close to Manheim. 2005 C4S Cab - 14k Miles Base Price - $37,450 Miles Adjustment - $5,050 Galves Trade-In - $42,500 Galves Market Ready - $44,250

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+1 Tom, run away. I bought a 2004 C4S, X51, 17k miles, carbon fiber steering wheel, shift ****, handbrake, rear wiper, PSE (love it), yellow calipers, aluminum pedals, heated seats, supple leather, CD changer, Bose, short shift, Porsche crest on wheels, tinted windows (hate it)... Original sticker was like $113k!!! (side note: why the hell would someone pay an extra $3k just so the brake calipers would be yellow!?@!@). Granted, I bought this coming into the winter... $39k from an original asking price of $49k. I would have paid $42k for it, but after a PPI, it was revealed that the front bumper was painted, one of the rear wheels was slightly bent (not enough for me to feel it), so I negotiated to $39k or I was seriously walking. The car was not in an accident - all the parts were original. I had a 4 hour PPI where the engine was also compression/leakdown tested (all within 1%). So if you factor in the PPI, I think I paid around $39.5k. In my opinion, I seriously think you should walk. Aside from my car, I also found a black/black 2004 in the Chicago area where the owner was as **** as I am (i.e. - I wax the insides of my wheels, for example). This was with 16k miles and it was for $39k also. Lastly, I suggest you purchase a Highline "paint meter" for $225. Well worth the investment as I found some dealers flat out lying to me stating that their car has "never been painted" (doesn't work for the plastic front and rear bumper). I also ended up telling my wife that the car she bought new prior to us getting married many moons ago was also painted. Now, I run around measuring my friend's cars telling them if it was ever in an accident (or not).

Pass is good. I don't necessarily like the car at the Subie dealer but of the OP likes and can get it for what he believes is a good price what are you going to do? It has to be up to the OP. Rule #1 is to buy the best car you can find and afford and I don't think the Porsche at the Subie dealer qualifies. I'm hoping Tom M will give it a miss and look more closely at the CPO cars. Either one appears to have fewer issues, has a CPO warranty, and I think the selling price will be close to what's he's looking at spending for the car at the Subie dealer car. Sincerely, Macster.

I sold my '04 with 3400 miles for less than that car!! The dealer is hosing you. Mine was still CPO with zero issues. You should pay no more than $40K for that car, period.