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YOUR RESEARCHIs GT3 a better than Turbo?
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Adjust jumping between a regular c2 and the gt3
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I don't find it hard to adjust jumping between a regular C2 and the GT3 on the clutch or anything else.
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A LOT of those conversions are 6speeders so it's probably a better place to ask (the turbo or GT2 forums here have a few as well).
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You will do far more to enhance lap times or mitigate understeer or whatever you are gunning for by replacing and tuning suspension and lightening a vehicle than you ever will by disconnecting a car's front diff and all that entails, plus you'd need to look at your suspension and weight distribution after you did it anyway, not to mention all the electronics.
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And disconnecting a diff from a turbo is just one of those things that makes very little sense to me unless you use the car for a very specific purpose in which the benefits of 2wd (in a car that was designed for 4 wheel drive) are overwhelming.
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I personally think it's silly to have the weight of the driveline without the grip (most people just disconnect the front diff), but hey if you remove it, do all of your weight distribution and suspension setup etc, I'm sure it's great, but you might as well buy a GT2 if you're that serious, the difference in buy price will be the least of your expenses when considering what it will cost to get the turbo up to GT2 laptimes and how much you'd need to be spending on racing school and then racing every year to justify the difference in capabilities.
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You will do far more to enhance lap times or mitigate understeer or whatever you are gunning for by replacing and tuning suspension and lightening a vehicle than you ever will by disconnecting a car's front diff and all that entails, plus you'd need to look at your suspension and weight distribution after you did it anyway, not to mention all the electronics.
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And disconnecting a diff from a turbo is just one of those things that makes very little sense to me unless you use the car for a very specific purpose in which the benefits of 2wd (in a car that was designed for 4 wheel drive) are overwhelming.
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I personally think it's silly to have the weight of the driveline without the grip (most people just disconnect the front diff), but hey if you remove it, do all of your weight distribution and suspension setup etc, I'm sure it's great, but you might as well buy a GT2 if you're that serious, the difference in buy price will be the least of your expenses when considering what it will cost to get the turbo up to GT2 laptimes and how much you'd need to be spending on racing school and then racing every year to justify the difference in capabilities.
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That having been said, if I PERSONALLY needed a rwd turbo, I wouldn't buy one with a working front diff, I'd buy one with a disconnected, removed or leaky/shot front diff and use the deficiency as an argument to reduce price (the market for such cars would be very limited, as if the downward prices on perfectly good CPO turbos isn't diving hard enough)
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buy a GT2 and race in class with company you can keep or a GT3 and add the turbos or supercharge and run super unlimited with all the monster machines.
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I personally would prefer the GT3, but if you are one of those rare people for whom money matters, then buy a solid Turbo, install some GT3 suspension bits and a set of GT3 seats and maybe a roll bar and done right you'll be running with the big boys - no doubt.
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I've noticed that many people, if not most, would perfer the gt3 over the turbo, whether it's the 996 or 997 model. I realize the lag that turbos have, but in your opinion is that enough to sway many buyers? Just curious
For what use? Pretty general question.
I"d take a GT3 over a turbo any day for a car that I really wanted to enjoy on the track first and still be fun on the street.
If it was a street car only I'd take the Turbo any day of the week over the GT3.
Depends on the application. Both are phenomenal cars. TT is better suited for the street. A true GT luxo-barge. The GT3 is raw, connected to the driver, and built for the track.
So....are you going to track or cruise to and from work?
Without getting into the specifics, they are essentially the same engine. Think of the TT as a GT3 motor with the turbos attached. The nice thing is they are NOT M96 motors and are very robust and bulletproof motors.
The TT is awd and 400-600 lbs heavier then the GT3. Turbo lag in the 996 is almost non existent and the 997TT is even more so.
The GT3 is raw, light, tight and rear wheel drive. A great track car but not so great for a daily driver.
I would kill for a GT3, but would pass on a turbo. The 996 turbo never *looked* right to my eye and the extra weight and 4wd and luxury goods are just so not my style.
I've driven both, just normal street driving mind you, and both will set your socks on fire.
The GT3 is the one to own forever though.
LVDell - Your not saying that the M96 engines aren't robust and bulletproof. Why mine still runs even with the oil in the coolant and the coolant in the oil, what more could I ask for?
Throw twin turbos on the GT3 and you have the best of both worlds (kits are available).
Altough the GT3 is a great track car, I like the fact to make just about any HP you want with the turbo. But, I am not a track person by any means.....I just like raw power.....
I disagree. The turbo is a pig, just like the C4 & C4S..... oh, wait I see you drive a..... uhmmm, never mind!
Just kidding!
Seriously, the Turbo (the heaviest 911) is probably 400 to 500 pounds heavier than the GT3, which is the lightest 911.
Yeah I'm liking that McD dividend. Haven't eaten at one in a couple of years, but hey someone's going there!
I like these sorts of wacky threads. I think the GT3 buyer and the turbo buyer are different guys if they only buy one car, but I know more than a few guys who bought one and then bought theother (e.g. bought a turbo, then decided to go racing and bought a GT3, or bought a GT3 for the track, decided to replace their SL with a turbo for the street). Then there's my buddy who just recently lost his GT2 to his ex wife, thing had 2500 miles on it after two years. Didn't see much of either, although he did get it out a bit more than our buddy Phil!
OH I forgot to mention, Rick Deman has a 99 Cup car sitting in his shop for winter storage (and a whole lot of other awesome stuff, forgot to post pics). Has a full nascar cage, but what you pick up in weight there you probably get back in savings from cutting the door to fit. I think the owner wants 55K for it, and it's in good shape for a car that's been racing 9 seasons, and it's pretty much ready to go! If you really want a GT3 to track, you might really want a Cup. PM Rick if you want more info.
no the one in the pic I believe is a converted street car,the one I was talking about is realy a full blown race car (GT3 Cup, nascar cage, single seat, all lexan glazing and full RSR fenders and bumpers, 13ish rears and I believe centerlock, sick sick sick), white, totally set up, I think a steal at 55 although DYODD, I hear the owner just wants one less race car (has a 7 Cup and an insane LM prototype that will absolutely drop your jaw)
If I am over there next week before I leave I'll take a pic
A LOT of those conversions are 6speeders so it's probably a better place to ask (the turbo or GT2 forums here have a few as well). I personally think it's silly to have the weight of the driveline without the grip (most people just disconnect the front diff), but hey if you remove it, do all of your weight distribution and suspension setup etc, I'm sure it's great, but you might as well buy a GT2 if you're that serious, the difference in buy price will be the least of your expenses when considering what it will cost to get the turbo up to GT2 laptimes and how much you'd need to be spending on racing school and then racing every year to justify the difference in capabilities. Then when you want to sell, the neutered turbo is worth like 10 dollars, the GT2 probably not much less than what you paid (they are starting to sell cheap too). I just honestly think these sorts of conversations are kinda ludicrous, so don't be offended if I come off a little bit jaded or rude, it's nothing personal.
I think 90% of people who buy these cars don't race them, or even do DE events. For that 90% the turbo is the best all around car you can buy at nearly any price. That doesn't mean a GT2 or GT3 wouldn't be more desirable, we all want things that are glamorous, connected to motorsport or history or something larger than us, and in this respect the GTx cars are thoroughbreds. You don't want to ride a thoroughbred outside of a racetrack all the time though, and there's better horses for jumping, better horses for riding down a beach, and better horses for riding on trails.
And disconnecting a diff from a turbo is just one of those things that makes very little sense to me unless you use the car for a very specific purpose in which the benefits of 2wd (in a car that was designed for 4 wheel drive) are overwhelming. You will do far more to enhance lap times or mitigate understeer or whatever you are gunning for by replacing and tuning suspension and lightening a vehicle than you ever will by disconnecting a car's front diff and all that entails, plus you'd need to look at your suspension and weight distribution after you did it anyway, not to mention all the electronics.
If after you've done all the right suspension and weight mods, graduated from a racing school, made more power (easy on turbo as Cory mentions), got stickier tires, and you still aren't as fast as you could potentially be, SURE why not, disconnect it, remove it, whatever, but I mean, aahhhh, ok I'll shut up. If you want a 2wd turbo, you want to go racing., and if you don't you probably have to reconsider what the heck you want a 2wd turbo for. buy a GT2 and race in class with company you can keep or a GT3 and add the turbos or supercharge and run super unlimited with all the monster machines.
The forum was getting a little slow so I thought I would
a little. I have been waiting for a C4/C4S guy to respond. I am glad you didn't disappoint, Scott!
BTW - how is the re-wrap coming along? When can we see pics of the zebra leather?
OH don't worry I wasn't offended, and as I said, nothing personal at all directed at you or anyone else for that matter. It's easy to see from your signature that you know all about the benefits of suspension upgrades and for your own application in autox it's possible a RWD turbo is every bit as good as a GT2! (As i said, it's gotta be a narrow application, and autocross is a pretty specific one compared to street driving or even circuit racing!).
And I agree, it's every man's right to spend his money as he sees fit. Believe me, my little internet post will not dissuade anyone who wants to build a rwd turbo one bit! That having been said, if I PERSONALLY needed a rwd turbo, I wouldn't buy one with a working front diff, I'd buy one with a disconnected, removed or leaky/shot front diff and use the deficiency as an argument to reduce price (the market for such cars would be very limited, as if the downward prices on perfectly good CPO turbos isn't diving hard enough)
They were all out of the zebra - damn it - so the Charcoal Alcantara is being used.
Parts arrived in Garland on Thursday, and Don I think is hard at work on the pieces. Not sure when I will get them back; hopefully next week sometime, but I am in no rush.
OUCH!!!! That was cold, Dell!!!
But funny!!
Actually it is a good thing I did give up my Porsche for a Honda, considering my job loss in early December.
Now I need to sell the NC house, soon!
I have heard that alcantara doesn't hold up well on high usage areas like steering wheels, shifters, and seat bottoms. Is that not true?
I never had problems in the GT3 and all it saw was hard action on the track several days a month, every month. It "spruces" right back up nicely with a soft steel bristle brush.
BTW, just playing wtih ya Tim!
Yeah, I know you were yanking my chain.... I would be disappointed if you didn't do that.
Interesting about the alcantara. It's too bad thy haven't cross-bred the Alcanter (where alcantera skins come from) with the Zebra. Maybe once they figure out how to get a Zebra to survive in the Alcanter's natural habitat, then Scott could have the best of both worlds.... alcantera in Zebra stripes!
I have had both on street and on track, bottom line you can not beat what turbos are selling for these days, what a bang for the buck. With that said if you are going to track more then street gt3 is the way to go. But if your skill level is not there you should start with a 996, you will have tons of fun for little money, then work your way up. However after passing many gt3's on track I will stay with 996 and eventually buy gt2 for garage queen and PCA conversation piece
both are phenomenal cars. GT3 will get thumbs up from people who know cars. Turbo will get thumbs up from anyone who had a wide body whale tail poster on their bedroom wall.
i'd drive across a lot to see a turbo. but a gt3 would get me out of my car to walk around it.
GT3 might also hold it's value better being a more unique car. or it might not because it appeals to a select few who know purity in cars. turbos are a dime a dozen.
personally, i'd love to have either. but a GT3 is way cooler.
did any of this make sense?
I agree with you waydeki when I went to pca events I always had people around my gt3, but at 7 eleven just another Carrera. However the opposite would happen with turbo. And Dell your gt3 was exceptionally set up and I have seen your videos, you are a great driver. I know you were winning allot of DE's. My gt3 was stock but my 966 has some nice stuff done to it to even the playing field.
Well - the for sale ads tell the story to a large degree. 996 Turbos start at $40K The GT3s start at $60K.
I personally would prefer the GT3, but if you are one of those rare people for whom money matters, then buy a solid Turbo, install some GT3 suspension bits and a set of GT3 seats and maybe a roll bar and done right you'll be running with the big boys - no doubt. They have the same chassis after all.
OK Tim, you had me going there.
I had to look and here is what Alcantara really is (according to Wikipedia.org)
"Alcantara is the name given to a composite material used to cover surfaces and forms in a variety of situations and applications.
The material was developed in the 1970s by Miyoshi Okamoto, a scientist working for the Japanese chemical company Toray. In 1972, a joint venture between Italian chemical company ENI and Toray formed Alcantara SpA in order to manufacture and distribute the material.
Alcantara is created via the combination of an advanced spinning process (producing very low denier bi-component "islands in the sea" fibre) and chemical and textile production processes (needle punching, buffing, impregnation, extraction, finishing, dyeing, etc.) which interact with each other."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcantara_(material
)
So, since Alcantera is a woven, man-made product, it most likely could be done in a zebra skin pattern, so there is still hope for Scott.
I know the TT has a lower entry cost and a great reputation for reliability but all I see when I look at my friend's '01 is the things that can't break on my GT3 because it doesn't have them. Two more diffs, 2 more axles, 4 more CV joints, two turbos, sunroof, electronic junk, etc. Long term ownership cost could easily fall to the GT3.
The TTs are an amazing bargain though.
There's no comparison. The TT is heavy and feels like you're driving a water bed. It's a luxury car. Felt Jaguar-like. Even if you do suspension, it's still heavy. The GT3 somehow makes you think you're in a go-kart.
Perhaps the best DE car I have ever seen was a friend who put a street GT3 motor in a Cup Car. Image having a Cup Car with Street Car reliability and maintenance! So maybe he was down 30hp... You can easy make that back by not breaking a couple of times.
The clutch pedal on a GT3 is quite a bit heavier than a turbo or my 996. When I've driven GT3s it wasn't hard to get used to but I remember thinking if I were caught in stop-and-go traffic this would get old. When I got out of the GT3 and back into my car, for the first 5 minutes my left foot slammed the clutch pedal to the floor until I re-adjusted!
My car (w/PSS9s) is set for a very firm ride so I never found the GT3 ride to be too harsh on the street. That said there are plenty of stories of people selling GT3s because the didn't like the ride.
So you need to drive a stock GT3 and turbo and this question will answer itself.
I don't think a 996 GT3 makes a great daily driver. It's a rather special car however, but it's not for everyone. I don't find it hard to adjust jumping between a regular C2 and the GT3 on the clutch or anything else.
Anyway, the GT3 will most likely be worth more than a comparable turbo. I'd prefer a GT3 but because of the price points, I've been toying with the idea of picking up a 996 turbo and removing a few bits from it, upgrading a few things, for sort of a poor man's GT2 kind of thing. I think it's a great starting point stock.
