i cant believe it happened to me!!! UPDATE!!

well, last night coming home from work, minding my own business doing 40mph, i hear a loud rattle noise, by the time i lowered my radio, the car shut off. so i pulled over and started it again.. the engine was making a lot noise, so turned it off and towed home. in the middle of the night, i get a call from security stating that there is a huge puddle of oil under my car!!! i am so pissed!! its an 02 C4s, 66k miles, all maintenance up to date... i dont why this would happen!! i feel like to going down to the dealership and choke someone! i have owned countless air cooled porsches with no problems, the 996 is a big disappointment although it was growing on me.. i am assuming this is an IMS failure and will require a new engine! please advice

Do you have any kind of warranty on the car?

no warranty!!

I am sorry, before we come to any conclusions take her to a Porsche shop and get a diagnostic.

I feel for ya, but the pain lessons when you get into action to repair. I ended up with a rebuilt eng and enjoy the car more and more as I drive it. Oh! and buy the way I did call PNA and complained like hell and that helped somewhat even if I was singing to the choir.

Well I'd hate if it happened to me but if it did. I'd look on the bright side and I'd get a new X51 engine and it would be covered under warranty again.

son of a bich sorry man -

The engine in my C2 went @ 14k miles, but the CPO took care of it, still I was upset.

...my biggest fear! Good luck - hopefully it isn't the worst case scenario.

My biggest fear also!

oh man =(

sorry to hear about your unfortunate incident. hopefully the repair can be done asap. I emailed you. I'm in the Doral area.

Sorry to hear it.

Let us know..... hang in there.

Sorry to hear that. If you did all the maintenance and repairs at an authorized porsche dealer (The Collection??) you "may" have some leverage with PNA at least picking some part of the repair... I feel your pain. I have a 2002 with 119,000 miles. I'm also in Miami if you need any help/moral support. joel

Sounds more like an AOS if the car's still running...

Has anybody owned another car that they were as fearful of breaking? I haven't. I know some on here say "if it goes I'll just fix it, so what". I have yet to see a post the that reads "whoohoo, IMS failed!!" My fingers are crossed.

That sucks, hopefully it can be rectified in a mutually satisfying manner.

Its the first thing I am replacing when mine gets here. The freaking brearing is a time bomb waiting to explode.

mike....have you owned it since new? If not, how long have you owned it? Hoping for a good outcome.

thats horrible. does LN bearing upgrade stop this kind of IMS failure?

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Yeah, It will be. "You pay for it and well be glad to take your 15K." I WOULD NOT give the money to PAG to fix it. Find someone else. Everytime another motor gets ordered they must freaking get a **** eating grin on their face..... PAG is ****ing the chicken while we are holding the head that bites.

Sorry to hear about it.. It also happened to me, and it took me a long while before accepting the situation. Screaming at PNA did help, and threatning to sue didnt hurt either. My mechanic/therapist helped me get over it, firstly saying that PNA discounts these engines as assuming part of the guilt, and the new engine has a 2 year warranty. The sooner you have the engine replaced the better, since knowing your car is undrivable will make you more upset.. Hope this helps.

New Year's Resolution: Stop waffling on buying that expended warranty I talked to the local dealer about! Hope it is not as bad as we all fear... I have friends who had luck getting their local dealer/PCNA to come up with a few thousand towards the cost of a new engine. One had not bought the car there - both were PCA members.

I've debated getting a warranty. I can get 2yr/24k from EasyCare for 2500. That buys me two years of sound mind. I would rather put in the LN upgrade, a new clutch, and new seals. This will give me the soundness I need, as well as the next owner well beyond the warranty period.

hanks for all your support, i have spent the day calling various dealerships and so far 13K without core is the cheapest i have found. i remember someone back talking about a 3.8 x50 engine for 8K, can anyone elaborate? which engine is it and if it will fit? car will be towed to the collection tomorrow, i just want to have some ideas before showing up with my baseball bat i only owned the car for few months, and has been a great driver!! the 60k maintenance was done recently and everything looked great!! these are the days i miss my 964

Mike, that sucks.... BIG time! Sorry to hear about this!

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Sorry to hear - let us know the outcome. My biggest fear is having some doofus in an SUV total the car. Then the whole thing is gone. But if the engine goes, at least it's replacable. To ClickClickBoom - most people get upset even when little crap breaks. I'm sure no one's thrilled to have an IMS failure. But we all know the risk, and many people have had favorable outcomes.

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At least if your car gets totaled, the insurance pays for another one! Better than a $13k bill !

Mike, first I am sorry your motor went south. This is unraveling for anyone and expensive to deal with. However I am curious - did you have any unusual motor noises prior to detonation while starting the motor, especially cold? The noise I am asking about is delayed for a second or 2 after turning the key and usually starts and ends right before the car starts up and then it is gone. Once the car is warm is is non existant. Someone told me this could be a symptom of a car that has pre IMS failure issues. Can anyone else elaborate?

Tough break on your Porsche Mike, hopefully something other than a IMS failure is the issue. Keep us in the loop, no doubt you are frustrated...fingers crossed.

Just when I come to terms with buying a 996 someone posts another story like this. Sorry to hear about this.

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Good point. How about if some doofus like me wrecks it at the track?

So after reading this thread I emailed a guy whos car I was considering. We've been going back and forth for a couple of days. I simply say I'm no longer interested in a 996. Here is his reply, I thought you all would enjoy: "No problem. Just to let u know, I had the same concern and had the RMS replaced by Porsche with the 2nd generation factory seal which prevents this failure from ever happening. "

When you hear noise: STOP! The engine may still be salvageable but it also may not be.. If an engine is shut down immediately we can almost always save them with an IMSR procedure and a thorough cleaning of the oiling system.

Check with Sunset Porsche and Suncoast Porsche. The 3.6 engines were less than $9,000 + core last time I checked.

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Well Kev, I still jumped. I am just making the IMS part of normal maintence schedule. Right now with being able to pick them up all over the place for under 20K they are a bargain for the bang for the buck. (saw a no reserve ebay unit in NY with 88K on the clock go the other day for 14K and change) If you go in with that attitute I think you will be OK. Also their is a place that makes a ceramic bearing install kit. I am going to do mine every 60K and it will be the first thing done to the car before its even driven.

A huge puddle? A rod going through the case or oil system failure is what I'd think. Throwing a rods rattle is been there done that. Oil system failure should of had a high temp or oil warning showing. Pistons ceasing is beyond cuss words. Never been there, at least on the ceasing part. Best day dream would be the O2 sensors and mass air flow got loose causing engine failure then the tow truck busted the oil pan or slammed the ehaust into the pump breaking it. Then the tow truck takes the hit for the new engine in the wildest of dreams. We all feel for yah man. Best of luck during the diagnosis.

here is a break down of what happened exactly: driving in town at speed limit, then i heard a loud rattle from the back ( sounded like a bunch of small metal pieces rattling inside a can), by the time i lowered the music to listen more, the car just died no cell... after i pulled over, i looked outside the car and everything looked normal, although the rpm gauge was stuck in 3k rpm !! so i started the car again, and it was running with a loud rattle and no cell still. turned it off and towed it home. few hours later, all the oil of the engine was under the car!! i hope the engine can be saved, dont feel like shedding $15K especially now.. will keep u guys posted, meanwhile if anyone has any input on fitting a 3.8 engine instead, please advice, their prices are lower

so, the collection is going to be making the repair? $13k with labor?

So if you have done your services with the dealer, I would expect them to go to bat for you and get a discounted replacement. Please keep us updated

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Mike that was me. Porsche had a sale mid December on certain reman motors without a core charge. Your memory is correct, the 3.8 X51 was $8,200 as was your standard 3.6. Unfortunately that was mid December and they sold out of many motors within a few days. At $13k, they're charging you around $11k for the motor. I would use the the info from the sale to try and get them to lower the reman price. Tell them you want the motor for $8,200. Good luck...

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Classic. The rattling in a can sound is the #1 sound that we hear over and over again. This is the symptom that we tell everyone to react to immediately and do not start the engine back up until it has been evaluated. The CEL means nothing, 90% of these failures occur with no CEL illumination. Sorry this happened to you, of course some people say this failure doesn't occur-

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how much would it be for the "best-case" scenario? if OP shutted off engine promptly and never try to start it again?

Wow! back when i had my 03 996 c4s, this was almost unheard of, RMS yes, IMS no. I put 64k on my car and it did have that rattle the last 20k miles or so, dealer always said it was nothing. I almost kept that car too, up until today I always regretted getting rid of it. If i did still have a dog in the 996na fight I would do that bearing trick pronto. Are there any indy machine shops working on these motors yet? That might be the cheapest alternative, an extended winter diy project. GL either way, I can only imagine your disappointment. c

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You have to understand the difference between the RMS and IMS. Most cars have their RMS' leak, not just Porsches. It's the IMS that causes catastrophic motor failure.

Sorry this happened, what a feeling been there done that. Went out gave mine a hug then took her for a nice drive and wipped her good. best of luck with your repairs.

Best of luck, my brutha. Keep us all posted.

I imagine if the initial rattle sound isn't doing damage then it would be the lossened chain hitting stuff and or chain chatter when the links are nearly jumping the gear. The bad part is when vavles and piston cycling isn't right. Yah best to shut it down right a way before any extra actions up and down in rpm causes the chain to jump teeth if it hasn't already. Yuck. Here's a couple of pages to digest. Like you will find in the pages and on this site it isn't all the cars that do it AND it appears the pampered and hardly driven cars are more prone to the failure by what one of the pages says. Soooo drive it like you stole it I didn't actually say that did I? http://www.flat6innovations.com/savi...e-ims-retrofit http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

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If the car you were looking at checks out, I still wouldn't base your decision on this thread. Yes it's something that *can* happen but it doesn't mean it will. These cars are great fun and I'm really happy with mine. If this were to happen to me I would also be devastated but even putting money back into it, if you plan on keeping it for a while I'd say it's worth it. So my advice, if a 996 is what you wanted then do your due dilligence and give it a shot!

Sorry to hear of the failed engine after only a few months of ownership. What oil were you using? The previous owner used 10W/30 did you go with the Porche approved oil or the 15W/50? You mentioned your RPM's were low when purchased did you ever find out what was causing the low RPM's? Did you have a bone dry engine prior to the failure? How was the car driven daily? Did the Porche dealer go over the car with you after the sale to make sure things checked out? If you took the car to the Collection they are sound and will go to bat for you. (see Mike)

"The previous owner used 10W/30 did you go with the Porche approved oil or the 15W/50?" If it is true that the previous owner used 10/30 - then this may be the heart of the problem. There are a huge number of oil threads around here but the use of 0/40 in 996's appears to be universally accepted as THE oil to use unless you are driving outside of the avg condition/use. If someone is using 10/30 in a 996 then I also question the oil change rate as well.

Best case is the same cost as a standard IMSR procedure, plus a few dollars for cleaning the oil system and sump. I saved 4 engines in 2009 that had suffered IMS failure of minimal proportions. I could have saved at least 10 more if they had been shut down just a few seconds earlier. When the bearings starts going south and makes noise everything goes to Hell VERY fast!

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and it scares the **** out of my you have seen that many in a year. 14 just in YOUR shop alone... Ouch

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I think he's in a shop that specializes in IMS fixing so da man gets a major portion. Some are possibly preventive measures. I know it sounds better to do preventive. Preventive helps resale and feels better when reading this sort of thread. ' I guess we are all still waiting for the final word from the repair shop.

This is really getting old. ALmost every day on any of the 996 blogs you hear of an IMS or RMS failure. And what do we do? We take it, go begging to the "stealer" with the great hope that they will replace the engine as a good will gesture out of the kindness of their heart! Let's face it, there is something wrong when an expensive sportscar, for no reason whatsoever fails at such a rate. This is a mechanical flaw in the engine construction and Porsche (now Volkswagen) should be responsible to replace or repair each and everyone of these failures under the letter of the law. I haven't personally had the this unfortunate problem with my car.....yet. But if I do, I will find a very good lawyer and make sure that Porsche/Volkswagen will replace it for free, plus rental car!!!

I was in Denver last week and was messing around with buddies 01 996TT. I actually ended up fixing his rear spoiler which the dealer quoted $1,800 to repair. I took the pump out and refilled the reservoir with pentocin hydraulic fluid and voila his rear spoiler now works. Ok.. that's not the point. I asked one of the Porsche service managers about the IMS failure and total engine loss. He said he saw 4 at his dealer. I left it at that. I could assume he personally took care of 4 failures... and there were more than 4 at the dealer or he could have meant he saw 4 total since he's been there. He did mention aftermarket upgrade.. I plan on getting it done.. if not Jake...then I'll use RUF in Dallas. Hans from RUF gave me a quote of $960 for the labor. And I think the replacement bearing is around $500 to $600 from LN Engineering. I will ask Hans for the total cost.

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Buddy and I were doing a rough math.. I believe Porsche sold approximately 25,000 to 30,000 units of 996 per year since 1999. And I believe Porsche finally redesigned the engine to remove IMS bearing in 2009. So, in 10 years, Porsche sold 300,000+ units of vehicles with IMS bearing..including Boxster, Cayman.. but excluding the TT units.. Rough math here. So, if they recall every unit and repair or upgrade with LN Enginerring type of bearing at a conservative $1,500 per recall, they're looking at a cool $450 million dollars.. So if I'm an advisor to Porsche, I would recommend they look the other way then settle out of court with individual lawsuits and/or minor lawsuits, repair blown engines under warranty, and say you're SOL to owners with no warranty. Responsible action by Porsche to have recalled and repaired would have driven them to bankruptcy. Again.... I'm just using rough math.

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Which is pretty much what happened anyway. The IMS is a ticking time bomb.

The amazing thing on the IMS failures is that there does not seem to be a correlation with miles or maintenence history. You see cars with less than 10K miles and perfect history with IMS bearings goen bad, and you see cars with 150K miles and so so maintenence that are still going strong. The bottom line on this was defective design. Porsche has known about, and tried to hide the problem for years. Yes they have now designed a new engine with the IMS, but they could have solved the problem with the M96M97 engines long ago. They did redesign the IMS shaft and bearing several times, and yet a small company like LN Engineering working with Flat 6 came up with a solution that the Porsche engineers failed to do. If it would have cost $450 million for Porsche to solve the problem that is what they should pay, even if it meant/means bankruptcy. Had they addressed the problem correctly it would not approach that amout. And it would not need to be that much, they don't have to do it for every M96/M97 made. Porsche should just step up to the table and fix the ones that fail! Probably less than 25%, although even this is a ridiculous percentage of failures. By the way Porsche almost bankruptcy had no relation to the poor design, It was just greediness and stupidity in trying to acquire VW. I have heard some defend what they tried to do as tryng to maximize sharelholder value (in the typical Wall Street mentality), but it hardly did that.

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They should have more concern for the REAL "shareholders", us, the loyal buyers. I don't care how many stock holders they have, it won't mean much without enough of us. All I can say is Thank God for JAKE!

Dharn, Nice post. I agree that Porsche should fix all IMS failures as they happen which would have been less taxing for Porsche considering probably less than 10% of the engines see failure and it doesn't cost 10X to replace the engine vs. IMS upgrade. Yet, no pocket change either. Now it's in VW's hands.. and there should be a balance between taking care of shareholders vs. customers. I still believe P-car owners should be proactive and protect ourselves through warranty and/or LN Engineering upgrade.

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Porsche wouldn't have to bring each car back and replace IMS bearings to be responsible. My wife just bought a used BMW 335i. That model has a chronic problem with its high pressure fuel pump. BMW extended the warranty to 10 years or 120,000 miles. Now in Porsche's case, it would mean replacing engines, not just replacing a bad part, but I doubt that doing so would bankrupt Porsche. Porsche had been doing a lot of that under warranty. And the problem cannot be that pervesive becasue otherwise, extended warranty companies would not be willing to sell insurance. Heck, Porsche could even include some proration for the customer to pay. That would be better than what is happening now.

rxjohn....are you suggesting "reactive" replacement or "proactive" replacement? I have no problem with them working out a "deal" to proactively do something but NOT reactively after the warranty period ends. Reactive means total motor failure. If you could warrant your car for 6yrs (4year warranty plus 2 yrs of CPO) don't you think THAT would be enough on the side of PCNA/PAG???

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LVDell, I discussed both Proactive and Reactive scenarios. Proactive meaning recall and Reactive meaning fix as they occur. The rough math shows reactive is more cost effective for Porsche. Do I think 6 years is enough on the side of PCNA? If it was a bad door handle, then yes. But not for a major design flaw of the engine which results in catastrophic engine failure irregardless of use pattern. I've read your posts and I respect your stance on this issue. I've also read other posters who experienced IMS engine failure and my heart goes out to them. Each his own on this issue. I've not had an IMS failure on either my previous Boxster or my current 996 Cab. The Boxster was a CPO but the Cab is not. The decision I make to upgrade IMS is a business decision. Do I risk future $10,000+ for an engine replacement + IMS upgrade to a new engine or do I spend $2,000 now on an upgrade and prevent the failure? If you had a 5 to 10% risk of major health issue yet if it can be prevented at a nominal cost, would you do it? It's your call to make... not mine.

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I agree. Replacing blown engines (which they have under warranty) would be more cost effective for Porsche. Now.. If there are IMS failures that results in driver and passenger fatalities, that's another story. How many fatal accidents do you think occured in P-cars due to IMS failure yet reported as driver error etc?

The heart of the matter is what is the responsibility of PCNA/PAG regarding the M96 motor? Is it 4 years? Is it 6yrs? Is it indefinite? Yes, my heart goes out to those that have ANY major problem that needs fixing on their car. But my sympathy stops when people believe that manufacturer owes them some sort of protection for an unrealistic amount of time. If the problem is as bad as SOME think it is and the M96 has been out for 12 years then WHY are people buying these cars??? And lastly, if PCNA/PAG should be responsible for this then what are the parameters? Only the original purchase at new? Surely you can't expect them to cover a car that has had multiple owners? I love my car and maintain it religiously. Have had it for almost a decade and have almost 80K miles on it now. I can't imagine asking Porsche to pay for something that goes back at this stage in the game, can you?

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Zero.

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Honda gave 7 years and 100,000 miles for their transmission regardless of how many owners it had. We're not asking the manufacturer for protection. We are asking the manufacturer to right the wrong. IMS bearing a major design flaw. Many people who buy these cars are not aware of IMS failure. Heck, I never knew about IMS failure when I had a Boxster. What's multimple owners got to do with a simple design flaw that results in engine failures? We're not talking about 10 different owners abusing the clutch. So you're more likely to not sue a physician who botched a major surgery on you due to a careless mistake because you tend to believe sh*t happens.. Good for you.

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Neither you nor I know the truth. So don't be so sure.

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You make a lot of good points and I agree with almost all of them. But something else to consider. I've been driving various cars for over 40 years and the only engine failure I ever had was in my '04 Boxster S one year after the warranty expired with less than 30K miles. (IMS failed, new engine installed). I've owned 4 Porsches including this one and this is the 2nd one I bought brand new. I've owned other performance cars including '79 Z28 and '99 BMW M Roadster. My Boxster S is the first water cooled Porsche and is the only one that had an IMS failure. I had read about the IMS failures before but it doesn't mean much when it happens to someone else. It DID shake my faith in the brand especially since I know I've not abused the car and have had all maintenance done by the dealer even before it was required. That being said, I'm still addicted to Porsche and will buy again. I just wish they would do some sort of recall and fix all the engines before they die. I'm sure this IMS threat had something to do with the softer prices of the water cooled P cars. Yes, I know about supply and demand but I think there's more to it than just supply and demand. I myself will either buy a 2009 or newer (if these engines do in fact hold up) or have Jake's fix done to an older one if I buy one. Long Live Porsche!

rx.......There you go on an apples to oranges tangent that has zero correlation here. A doctor screwing up is NOT the same as a "perceived" design flaw. And I can speak from personal experience since I write a hefty malpractice insurance check EVERY year and take that very seriously. So, if PCNA gives you 7/100 like HOnda would that make you happy? I'm trying to get the CLOSED end parameters that you seek. By the way, multiple owners has PLENTY to do with it. By the way, some would say the headlights on the 996 are a design flaw that has DEVALUED the car. Should they make that right?

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Then why even ask.

Again, if you read my posts carefully, despite my opinion of Porsche being accountable for their mistake, I also stress that P-car owners should be proactive in protecting ourselves through IMS upgrade or warranty. It's not your call to belittle others who want a peace of mind through IMS upgrade. You're not in their shoes. And if your engine blows up tomorrow (I wish it doesn't), you'll have wished you did an IMS upgrade.

If my engine goes I won't wish I did an IMS upgrade nor will I come here crying about it. If it's NOT my call to state my opinion on a perceived upgrade then how is it your call to state that it is a problem? Obviously this exchange started off well but you don't have the ability to keep it oranges to oranges. Y'all know where I stand. Signing off........

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What's wrong with apples to oranges tangent. I happen to like both fruits and it does have a lot of correlations yet you don't see it because you're blinded. It's about "providers/professional" being accountable for the product/services to "customers." And if you do write malpractice checks, then you of all people should know better. Yes, if it's whichever is higher. Wrong.. not with IMS failure. Does the headlight design flaw shut down the engine? Who's talking apples and oranges here?

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I didn't ask. I was pondering.

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Run while you can!

What if... anyone who has a trashed motor because of an IMS failure (not of their own doing) gets 25% off a new car?? Drives the sales end of it - moves dealer inventory - retains a customer - repair department get you back after warranty period is over. Isn't a 'positive' result better for everyone? Couldn't Porsche sales divison absorb a 25% discount for what we are told is a few cars with IMS issues leading to blow ups? And of the 'proactive' replacements of the bearings that didn't lead to a motor blow up: why not a 25% discount on the install price? Wouldn't you feel better about the company and the dealer network? Wouldn't you want to continue buying from this company when there are so many other sports car buying options out there. When there was just a few s**ty brit sports cars for sale in the 1960's - 70's market place and Porsche had a lock on the market - they might have got away with a 'blinders on' business approach. But now? Seems to me they have a lot to learn about being loyal to their customers. In this new economy, will they be shocked if they see the 'old' customer base talk to a new generation base and talk them out of buying?? It could happen. Whats been the damage to sales from these generally internet based IMS stories and PCA members talking to each other? How many sales were lost? We don't know and we can't know if it is just lost future sales of someone who bought a used 996 model. But... A 'lost' in the puddle of oil 996 IMS owner many not be a future 997, SUV or Panamerra owner. If they don't care about this market group or the rest of the customer base then Porsche better be prepared to handle the 'churn' rate and of course - the lack of brand loyality. One way loyality is a bad business model.

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Lets just say I recently received a call from a Government agency that was interesting. My focus for the first quarter of this year is more IMS awareness tips, completing the IMSR instructional DVD and adding a ton more info to the website about IMS facts and myths. The IMS design isn't a flawed design as much as the fact the bearing is permanently lubricated and a few other "features".

Playing devil's advocate, where does the responsibility end for a manufacturer? The 944s had a problem with oil starvation in hard turns and spinning #2 bearing. The air cooled, 911’s broke head bolts and pulled threads from the block. Did Porsche recall or warranty weak head bolts/blocks for cars 6-10 years old? Now broken bolts or a spun bearing in most cases don't CATO engines like the IMS failure does. But these short falls by Porsche has opened up private companies to come up with repairs and upgrades that may have never opened if Porsche warranted all these cars for ever. Rick 99 996C4 87 944S

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Powertrain warranty of 7 years/100,000 miles would be reasonable. We can't dictate Porsche's business practice. But we can compare Porsche to other reputable auto brands and the way they stand behind their product and design.

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Using your math, the expected value of engine failure is $1K. (10%*$10K). The expected value of the upgrade is a cost of $2K. With regards to your business decsion, doing the upgrade has a 90% probability of being a money loser. What you are really doing is buying insurance with an estimated cost of $1K. Makes you wonder if buying an extended warranty (i.e. insurance) for $2.5K or so isn't a better option, as then you have insurance on the whole car, not just one part.

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Except warranty expires but IMS upgrade shouldn't. Then what are you options once the vehicle no longer is under a warranty.

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But if you get just a warranty, it has a time limit, be it for 1, 2, or 3 years, etc. The upgrade would at least prevent an IMS failure, hopefully for the life of the car.

Good points, the decision may depend on how long you intend to own your car. Personally I never get the extended warranty because like the IMS upgrade, the expected value is negative. As long as the loss isn't catastrophic, I don't feel a need for insurance. Losing my house would be tough to recover from, I need insurance. Losing a car will just make me sad, not set me back. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. With regards to the life of the IMS bearing, we should acknowledge that we only THINK it will last the life of the car. I'm sure some life cycle testing has been done in the lab, but its not like these have been on the road very long to know for sure. I bet Porsche thought their IMS would last also - oops. That said, I bet the upgrade does last but we won't be able to say the problem is solved until later on down the road.

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And if it doesn't, then we'll all get together and go beat up Charles at LN Engineering and Jake down in Georgia.. we know where to find em..

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You cant tell me they do not have somekind of insurance for this. 450 Million to fix the cars. At 1500 a car, Its my opinion this is the risk of doing business. Has anyone contacted consumer affairs? Has anyone talked to an atty about a class action? I would rather see the government step in with a recall. What are the laws on a recall. How many have to fail? Do people have to actually get hurt? I think consumer affairs is a good avenue to try. But I would take someone who can prove the problem. How could you prove how many are failing? I see published a number of 10% failure rate. I think its BS. I think it is a lot higher and if its not, its going to be.

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Let me speak from personal experience here. A lot of us have purchased early 996s because of the low price. Many, perhaps most of us can not justify 80k or more for a sports car. But a ten year old 996 for 20K or less is well within reach. These (used) cars are a bargain. Well, at least until the engine blows up. In my case, I bought a high mileage (about 100K) car that looked not too much different than a new one, drove great and all was well until the IMS failure occurred ten months and 6000 miles later. As to WHY people are buying these cars? They don't know any better. Who would expect a Porsche engine to blow up? Porsches win races all over the world, don't they? Most new buyers are not on Rennlist, or any other forum. I had already purchased my 996 before I learned about RMS and IMS issues. Of course, even after I had learned about it, I never expected the failure to occur to me. After all, the engine had run nicely for 100,000 miles, why should it expire now? I have owned perhaps 20 or so cars over the last 40 years, including one other Porsche, a 1969 911T. I have driven hundreds of thousands of miles with these cars and NEVER had an engine failure until the 996 expired a year or so ago. Oh, and let me add, the replacement 2003 X51 engine installation wound up costing almost as much as the current price for an early 996. Knowing what I know now, would I buy an early 996? No. ....Rickker

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I really can't tell you much what Porsche does...

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Would you buy an LN Engineering IMS updated early 996 for an additional $2,000?

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Well, you make a good point. Probably yes. 996s are great driving cars. The trouble is, most of us are not aware what we are getting into when we buy our first 996. ....Rickker

Over time we'll also experience some sort of failures with our bearings.. Or failures that get blamed on the bearings, just like what happens with Porsche as a ***** of IMS failures are NOT primary IMS BEARING failures. The IMS tensioner paddle failure is often misdiagnosed as a bearing failure when it certainly isn't. I saw three of those tensioner paddle failures in 2009 that were diagnosed as an IMS bearing failure by Porsche dealerships that were not. We are taking the security and reputation of the IMSR procedure and the bearings very seriously. So seriously that the bearings are serialized, VIN numbers recorded from vehicles that have been outfitted and a serialized door decal that matches the VIN and bearing serial number is located in an exact position in the door of each vehicle thats been converted to an FSI bearing retrofit. I want to ensure that when the day comes and we experience what is a so-called "failure" that the bearing is ours and had actually been changed... There are some odd people in this internet world that will do anything to cause trouble.

well guys, i got a call this afternoon and indeed, i need a motor!! IMS !! keep in mind, its an 02 C4s, 65k miles, all documented maintenance including a new clutch and real main seal at 60K. everything was up to par. never tracked, never abused, regular driver!! this can happen anytime to any car!! so those of you who think this is because of the drivers or bla bla... just dont get it. the guy at the dealership told me there were 6 cars in at the time i was there for IMS failures, 3 boxters, 2 996s, and a 997!!! this is a real flaw that one of the most successful sport car manufacturer has ignored for so many years!! i called porsche and filed a claim to ask for a contribution, honestly, the lady told up front that my chances are not good, so i am just waiting for an answer in the next couple of days to make a decision!! honestly, i have always admired and loved all the porsches i have owned, this just changed it all

I had a 1995 Ford Windstar that came with a 3 year, 36,000 mile warranty. Not an expensive car, about $22,000 as I remember. At 4 years and 42,000 the trans went. Ford replaced it. At 7 years and 72,000 the enigne went, a failed head gasket, which was a known problem with the 3.8 V6. Ford replaced it. I have a 2000 996, bought for over $94,000 in 2000. Cracked cylineer head in 2008 with only 50,000. Nothing from Porsche. I personally know 4 others with the same crack in a 3.4 cylinder head, and in tryiing to find a used head I think I found 5-6 heads, and everyone was cracked in the same spot. Seems like Porsche could learn some customer relations from Ford. The bottom line is that Porsche has not stood behind the problems with the M96 engines, or even proactively redesigned the engines to address the problems Now the really sad thing is this is my 6th Porsche, and I will probably buy another because I love the cars. Will probably wait until the 997.2 cone down in price. 2009's were selling for 20% off new, so I figure in 3-5 years they will be going for 20-30% of the sticker. And by then we will know the faults with the new engine design, seems like there are already some issues coming out. But as long as there are Porsche lovers like me they can probably get away with the approach they have been taking.

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Man.. I am so sorry...

H964 sorry to hear the bad news for you. Best of luck on the compensation.

That really blows.

Do you have any idea how many times I've heard this???!!! Over and over and over again! Yep, yet again thats what we hear over and over again. and it does. Two failure calls came in today, I have the repots on my desk now.. One was a '97 Boxster, the other an '06 Cayman. And the majority of failures happen between 38 and 70K, thats what the reports we have state time and time again... But yet again, this failure could be an IMS related failure that wasn't the bearing. Unfortunately when Klaus in Germany tears it down to reman the real result of the failure will be hidden forever.

Jake, would you share how many motors have come to your shop, after (conclusively) an IMS failure?

Gee I'm kind of feeling left out, I only had a broken crankshaft. Thats the bad news, the good news is I now have a completely upgraded Flat 6 Innovations engine thanks to Jake and the crew and I could not be happier unless of course I was at a track flogging it right now! Lon Tusler 1999 996 v3.0 X51X 1992 968 1988 951 1980 911 1965 356C

Boy, this is discouraging! I was clinging to the hope that if I don't track my car, I wont have this issue. I really wish there was actual data from Porsche showing how many IMS falures occurred over the life of the M96. Is it 1%? 10%? We are lucky most 996/997 owners aren't Rennlist members - otherwise we would never be able to sell our cars!

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Porsche will never release this, doing so would be admission that there is a problem and that they recognize it. Of all the phone calls we have received and emails from those who have had actual failures I can only think of TWO bearings that failed on the track while under extreme service and only one of those was a dedicated track car. Ltusler had an extreme crankshaft failure, but his engine had over 20,000 track miles on it prior to this. See the below attached pic of Lon's two piece crank. When I disassembled his engine the IMS bearing was flawless and had no signs of impending failure.

ouch that looks ugly......IMS and/or crankshaft failures this truely bites for anyone that goes through this for a car that has depreciated to the point that a replacement motor now is close to the total cost of the car....

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A Cayman? I know I shouldn't be surpised but that means Porsche has had well over ten years to find a solution to this issue and they haven't. Well, they have but redesigning the motor without an intermediate shaft came too little, too late. So the "safest" used (pre 997.2) Porsche to buy from the last decade is a non DFI Cayenne? That makes me sad. 38K to 70K you say? I have 36,600 on my car as of last night. Once the weather stabilizes I am making the 996 my daily driver so I can rack up as many miles as possible before the CPO goes away in Feb 2011. And once it expires.... LN bearing.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe TT engines are immune from IMS failure....

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Good point, I feel better, but not much.

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I think what we need to do is to take the Rennlist population of 996 engines (+ all other cars that have the same engine). And then take a sampling of how many of those failed due to IMS. We will need to subtract out the number of members that "specifically joined Rennlist to get info on the IMS/RMS issue". This would skew the numbers. This would probably put us in the ballpark...

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Or ask your local Porsche service center how many IMS failures they've seen. They may tell you... or they may not... Still, we will never ever come close to an accurate figure unless there's a class action lawsuit and the court demands Porsche to release the figure. It's a shame.

Could someone explain to me what the x51 engine is? Will a GT3 engine fit?

Just wanted to say I am sorry to see another reported failure I hope things work out for its engine replacement. I would also hope for help from Porsche but sadly wouldnt hold my breath.

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Visiting a dealership the other day and service manager asked me how many miles I have on my Boxster. 226K miles I told him. Asked him why he asked. Says he had a 986 Boxster in with its second IMS. The 1st engine failed under warranty and was replaced. This one failed out of warranty and owner understandably upset. As far as service manager knew owner took good care of the car and it was not abused or misused. Porsche wanted owner to authorize an engine removal and tear down with a dollar limit of several thousand dollars before it would possibly agree to any good wiill on the engine replacement. And there was no guarantee of any good will. Car owner doubly upset. Also, another Boxster owner who's car also suffered what was an IMS failure had just pulled his car out of the dealer's service department rather than pay the several thousand dollar engine removal and tear down charge before Porsche would extend, if it did extend, any goodwill towards a new engine. Told service manager I would not have his job for all the tea in China. Seems the dollar amount Porsche asks for engine removal and tear down before it extends any goodwill is all over the map. I've been told the amount ranges from several thousand dollars to in one case $5K. Also, I've been told even this "offer" is not extended to everyone. Those service managers I've talked to say there appears to be no pattern as to who gets the offer or who doesn't. Sincerely, Macster.

Has anyone seen this website. This guy is trying or was trying to do something http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/

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geesh...that hits home.. that's my local Porsche dealer.

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I'm sick and tired of the hand holding consumers expect now a days. Apparently no one reads their mortgage documents and no one researches car purchases. If you buy a car without researching potential major failures, you are taking a risk. If you want to assume that because its a porsche, you won't have an engine failure, then you are again taking a risk. If you buy a M96/7 based car, you are taking a well known risk. Either you hedge that risk with a warranty, you try to eliminate the risk by buying the modification kit from LN, or you leave your position unhedged and risk losing $10k. You need to look at the expected value and your own comfort level. Me? I'd just buy the damn fix-it kit, and stop worrying. Being able to drive my car without wondering when its gonna blow is worth way more than $1500. P.S., Porsche doesn't owe you a thing. They provided a warranty and stood by it. If you have engine failure later on, so be it. The only way to stick it to them is to vote with your wallet and not buy another porsche.

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Rick is right on here. My 911SC had broken head studs, so a motor rebuild at 87k miles. No warranty there. Many, many 356 engines have had the 2 piece crank issue. Many, many 944 series cars have had the rod bearing issue. They all have had some issues. I dare say Porsche is not alone in this. Any of you ever read the tech talk portion of Roundel? You hear the same types of things about BMW's. Some of these cars are getting old, many will make many will not. Personally I look at it as an opportunity for an upgrade. As along as your in there make it bigger. better, faster! After all that is the American way and your supporting the economy. Lon

The record for a low mileage engine having an IMS failure is 2K miles and that came in about 8 months ago. The driver bought the car new (98 Boxster) and only drove it to the club for Golf on Saturday mornings. The max has been an IMS failure at 188K. Here are some carnage pics from other aspects of the engine..

Does anyone else notice that a large number of the Porsche's at the Dealer and Indy's need repair? Call me crazy, but isn't that as statistically significant as finding sick people at the Doctor's office or hospital?

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I agree with you to a point. I just bought one knowing about the issue. I do plan on taking the right action to prevent it. In that case, You are right, They owe me 0. But the poor owner before me that just took a bath in resale value, I think Porsche owes him about 7K. So to me you are right, They already paid me using the PO's money. I am going to be into a 99MO, 5-second car with an aero package, including Tax, title and tags AND the new ceramic bearing for under 20K. You are right they own me nothing. They used the PO's money

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hey, talk to the guy that owned my s500 before me. He had it for 3.5 years, paid $115k, and I bought it for $40k. modern cars hold no value

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Can someone explain to me how it can do this much damage? I dont even really know what the IMS does. I know where it is, But have no idea what its for.

Question for you Jake, When doing an IMS upgrade, does your process involve replacement of both bearing and IMS? I thought I only saw IMS bearing replacment part on LN Engineering website. Thanks,

Wow, I just stumbled across this thread. Wow. I never thought I'd be glad to spend "only" $8K on a new top-end for my 1996 993 C4S when the time comes. Whether it's IMS on the 996, or weak valve guides on the 993, it seems that Porsche can't seem to get past design flaws that wind up costing the customer some major dollars. My heart goes out to the OP.

I have to think that if Ford Taurus engines were blowing up the way M96/7 engines seem to be, there would be a recall - or at least one of those "shame on you" reporters bothering Ford until they addressed the issue. No? I think if there is a clear engine design flaw, Porsche should be held accountable.

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/engines/wa...led/shaft_tech Interesting solution from our friends across the pond.

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Briefly the IMS is a shaft the runs the length of the engine and resides directly under the crankshaft and is chain driven by the crankshaft. The IMS in turn drives the exhaust camshafts in each head. These in turn spin the intake camshafts. The cams turn at half the crankshaft speed so some sort of speed reduction is necessary. Furthermore Porsche engineers believed that directly driving the camshaft from the crank was not a good/workable solution, so the IMS (intermediate shaft) was chosen. If the IMS bearing fails the IMS loses positional and location integrity. IOWs, the end where bearing resides moves about. This movement can result in either the chain from the crank skipping/jumping a tooth or two which means the cams are not in time with the pistons moving up and down in the cylinders. When this occurs valves and pistons make contact with disasterous results. Or one or both chains from the IMS to the exhaust camshafts skip or jump a tooth or more which again results in the valves opening/closing at the wrong time relative to the pistons' movement up and down in the cylinders. In another scenario the crankshaft chain snaps which means the IMS does not turn at all and the valves remain in whatever position they were in and pistons and valves make serious contact. Also, in this case with the IMS also driving both the scavenge and high pressure oil pumps and with the IMS not turning there is no oil being pumped so the engine runs with just residual oil and no oil pressure to speak of so. Or a cam chain snaps and one head's exhaust and intake cams stop turning. Again valves and pistons make contact. 6 of one half dozen of another. There is no real escaping serious engine damage in the event of an IMS failure unless at the first signs the engine is shut off and not even cranked until the cause of the problem is sorted out. Even shutting off the engine right away may not save the engine from destruction. It depends upon the severity of the IMS bearing failure, how fast this progresses, and the events that follow. I've seen one 996 engine -- I have pics and posted one which shows the IMS and the end that houses the IMS bearing and which from the condition of the bearing races it is clear the bearing failed -- that it turned out upon inspection had suffered an IMS bearing failure but the driver shut the engine off as soon as noise was heard. The car was taken to a Porsche dealer and upon teardown the engine's IMS bearing had clearly failed. An inspection of the engine found that the damage was confined to the IMS and its bearing and one chain guide/tensioner. The engine was deemed salvageable and was resurrrected by a tech at the dealership. I spoke with the tech and he told me -- this at least a year maybe closer to 2 years back -- that Porsche had only recently given the dealership's permission to do this. Before the engine was removed from the car, and a new engine ordered. The new engine installed and the old one put in the crate the new one came in and shipped back to the factory. Sincerely, Macster.

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Ford Taurus SHO V8 were WORSE! Ford didn't stand behind the engines and nearly all failed between 50-80k. 90~99% failure that took the engine out. It was a Cosworth/Yamaha/Ford design. (BTW- our transmissions and IMS shaft use a "press-on" design, but not sure if it is exactly the same engineering. There are places that will "pin" the IMS sprocket for you. SHO guys found tack welding, solved their problem. But most owners didn't know about the problem - you don't see high mileage V8 SHOs. ) Here is the shory history... Cam trouble Soon after the introduction of the SHO V8, widespread problems with the cam sprockets began to surface. Ford had used a relatively unusual method, called "swaging", of affixing the cam sprockets to the camshafts. The cam sprockets were fastened to the hollow camshafts by forcing a metal ball which was slightly larger than the interior diameter of the camshaft through the center of the camshaft, thus expanding the metal slightly and creating a mechanical bond between the cam sprocket and the camshaft. This method proved to be inadequate, and the cam sprocket could break loose from the camshaft and spin independently from the camshaft (or "walk"). This would result in the camshaft stopping and thus not activating the valves, allowing the pistons to hit the valves, ruining the engine. The preventive measure of welding the cam sprocket to the camshaft soon proved to be a fix for engines that had not suffered such a fate yet. Another such fix is "pinning" the cam sprocket, or inserting a pin in the sprocket to keep it aligned on the camshaft. Ford issued a TSB (TSB 03-14-1) prescribing the application of Loctite to the cam sprocket to lengthen the life of the camshafts, but as SHO owners have experienced cam failure after the application of Loctite, most SHO enthusiasts do not recommend this fix. I think the bigger problem is that Porsche never figured what the root cause was. They covered the engines during the warranty period, as promised. But should of figured a fix. It appeared that they kept trying with all the revisions to the IMS, but never fully succeeded. Eventually getting rid of the IMS in 9A1. It cost them dearly with the cost to replaced engines and then ship to Germany to inspect. I find it strange that you can't buy a replacement IMS bearing or the center bolt from Porsche. (or so I understand) Kind of ironic that a couple of guys in the US appear to have figured a 'fix'.

I'm looking an an 06 Boxster S and the IMS is an issue I'vr got to worry about. As an act of tough love for Porsche we should park a Honda S2000 in their lobby. If Honda ever refocused on building sports cars, Porsche could be toast in 5 years.

OP You should consider hiring a lawyer. I know the last thing anyone wants to do is pay a lawyer for something but it would probably be worth it. You could potentially recover your attorneys fees also. My guess is that Porsche would settle since they wouldnt want the number of failures/different models disclosed and published(obtained through discovery). I filed a claim with Porsche years back under their corrosion protection warranty. Porsche refused to cover the claim but as soon as I hired a lawyer, the claim & attorneys fees were recovered.

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Either. The original fix that we created could ONLY be applied to engines that were completely apart for rebuild or totally torn down to repair an IMS bearing failure. With the engine disassembled we have the ability to machine the IMS tube for another third row bearing for the ultimate in bearing durability and total overkill engineering. EVERY new engine I assemble gets this procedure along with 3 other proprietary alterations that are made to the IMS shaft while it is accessible. This is known as the "IMS Update" (or IMSU) as it doesn't just enhance the bearing, but enhances the entire shaft. The IMSR or IMS Retrofit is a bearing removal procedure that extracts the original bearing from the IMS tube with the tube still installed into the engine and the engine still installed into the vehicle. This is the procedure thats the hot topic in this thread. The IMSR allows engines that have not failed to be outfitted with bearing technology that is over 1 decade more advanced in materials selection than the OE bearing. It also allows engines that are showing symptoms of bearing failure or have experienced complete bearing failure (and caught in time with the engine shut down) to be "saved". The IMSR DVD will go over the shaft, what it does, where it is located and why it leads to such catastrophic failure when the bearing that supports it goes south.

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I was a victim of the V8 SHO. My first new car. Bought in 99. Trans blew at 14K. Tie rod ends, ball joints, rack and pinion all failed. Normal highway daily driving. No mods or racing of any kind. My Lemon law suit got me a few grand and I tookt he car the next day to the Honda dealer and bough a 01 Prelude. Great car that honda.

One avenue that everydody with a either a RMS or IMS (in the past or now) failure should follow is filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, under the Lemon Law. Just Goggle BBB Lemon Law and you will find the on-line form to send to the BBB. IF everybody does this and the BBB gets enough of these they will follow up with Porsche. And by the way, Porsche does not participate in the BBB...wonder why? I had a 79 Oldsmobile that had a flat cam on #3, due to a manufacturing problem. I took it in to the indy to find out why it had so many problems. Come to find out there were 3 things that were manufacturing flaws in the car: 1. the cam, 2 the X-100 Tramsmission and 3.a faulty distributor. All three were covered for parts and labor by GM. I left the garage only owing for the cost oil change and some new plugs. This was done completely due to the BBB Lemon Law filing suit with GM on behalf of its customers.

After reading about it on Jake's site, it seems the IMS bearing is the same Achilees heel to the 911 as the dreaded cam chain tensioner was/is on the 16 valve 944 engines (it's a lot easier to replace the latter for preventitive maintenance)!

Jake, What are "engines that are showing symptoms of bearing failure"? The dreaded Porche IMS failures on the 986,996,997 and Cayman sounds like a Porche public relations night mare if the general public was made aware of such a design "flaw". There are thousands of these cars made since 1997 yet we all sit and wonder when we are going to be the next victim of an engine failure. Using the right oil, running the car properly, keeping the maintenance schedules, etc....nothing seems to reduce the probability of an engine failure. Either the IMS closed bearing is going to leak and you are screwed or it does not leak and you are safe. Most of us are proud Porche owners and would like to see a remedy to this catastrophic nightmare and hope it never happens to us. A couple of smart US engineers have a "solution" that Porche does not acknowledge. Hell this is beginning to sound like a bad reality show. Unfortunately the reality is on us to do something about the problem instead of looking the other way and hoping the "next" engine swap is not yours. Do we have any clout as a community in the US marketplace for Porche to take these allegations in design flaws seriously? In the era of information overload I bet there are many ways to educate the potential sport car enthusiast of the Porche malady.

I am beginning to get a little bit nervous. I have read all 9 pages of this thread now. I am not mechanically smart so I do not understand everything about the IMS issue. "Do I have anything to fear" seems like a stupid question now. But, srsly, can I do anything to prevent this failure ?

Are the 3.4l engines more prone to break compared to the 3.6 ?

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Form what I understand No. To answer your other question, there is a company that makes a retrofit ceramic bearing. Its still a 10-12 hr job to replace and the kit is about 600. But even so, that is A LOT cheaper than another engine.

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Thank you very much, I get it.... Its kinda like losing a timing belt on the 928... But does a lot more damage.

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Luxury cars don't hold value. Never had. Thats his fault for buying it. High perfomance cars do traditionaly hold a little more value.

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So Jake, what causes this bearing failure in some cars, and not in others? Luck in the way the bearing was made, more frequent oil changes? I'd love to have you put in your new bearing, too bad I don't live in GA!

A few more questions for Jake (more 997 based but bear with me): 1. I've yet to find a definitive answer regarding when Porsche "upgraded" to the new style IMS bearing/IMS. I've heard some claim late 2005 and some claim mid 2006. The reason I ask is that for those of use looking at 997s, I've read that the later IMS design is NOT upgradable with your redesigned bearing. Seems as though a purchaser might be better off with the earlier design which is upgradable. Or perhaps the later bearing/IMS design is more reliable? (while I'd like to pretend this is true, I'm guessing these car are still too new to know). 2. What other mode of failures should one be aware of in the later engines. If I buy a 997, I'd like to address these before I drive the car. TIA, Joe

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Since the bearing is sealed and there is no rhyme or reason to the failures and very little consistent trend date my scientific wild *** guess would be just how well each individual bearing was manufactured... ....thats nothing more than a wild *** guess.

There is a reason $70k to $90k cars are now selling so cheaply. The market has factored in the cost of repairing IMS failures, cracked heads, and the other catastrophic failures caused by superior German engineering.

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Are you saying Porsches are depreciating faster than other high end vehicles?

Is any body rebuilding these engines, are the parts available? Seems to me I'd try my luck with an old school race machine shop before I shelled out that kinda dough to a stealer, and just make it a long diy project.

Will every engine eventually fail, or only some ?

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Yes, everything mechanical and or electrical will eventually fail (computers, launch vehicles, trains, planes and automobiles). Will your 996? 100%, yes it will, eventually, but you can take steps to reduce the risk, you can't eliminate them, but you can reduce it. Why do you think there are FAA mandatory aircraft maintenance and rebuilds hours, to help find worn/fatiguing parts and replace them. I just did a 105K miles maintenance that replaced all the chain guides, chain adjusters, RMS, IMS bearing/seal, water pump, AOS, and clutch. Why, because these items are known to fail and when they fail, bad things happen. 105K is a lot of miles, and now hopefully I can, with normal maintenance get another 95K and then think about doing a full rebuild.

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I think he was talking about IMSF, Not "in general" I think he is smart enough to know that eventually, his engine will fail for some reason. But I think his queastion is more asking if every one is going to fail from IMSF. My thought is no, you always get the one that runs forever... BUT, From what I am reading, I feel this is going to be the end of the road for a lot of them... I think pushing 90% if you dont take the proper precautions.

Jake please tell us the IMS bearing is not made by the same company that makes the Wheel bearings for porsche....

Dang you people. Now I'm scared to take my car out of the garage to run to the bookstore!

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When my IMS failed (Spring 2009 with <30K miles), I got a replacement engine with "all the upgrades" (according to the head mechanic) and was told they are much more robust. Does anyone have any information as to what updates there were for the IMS?

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+1, I've taken a few chances in the past few days...lol...got the oil and fuel filter changed and went for a cruise last night...big time risk... But it's now 42deg in Miami and raining, so the car doesn't move. Having said that, I will be doing the IMS retrofit, new RMS seal either way since I see it as an upgrade from what Porsche handed down to us. on the LN site, the billet oil filter adapter and magnetic drain plug also look like great mods too. 2000 996 Cab 10K miles

From one of the British Porsche car magazines currently on the rack (I forget which) today, it says that the IMS failures tend to be in the 10% range !!!! This is the magazine with the "996" as a feature cover. That's crazy! There definitely should be some sort of class action suit with that much failure!

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Yes... But few dealers are. In 2009 more companies took the plunge to build them for the first time and I gladly assisted them..

A truly sad state of affairs. however, my first P-car was a 1972 991S. I got it, drove it up from NYC towards Albany, and got 35 mi before the chain tensioner slipped. Did about the same damage; took out 1/2 the engine in the days prior to extended warranties. I still have a connecting rod as a paperweight. I know this is no consolation, but since then, 35yrs of P-cars, nothing that bad has happened to me. yet. i drive a 2002 C4S. I did read on a blog, the failure rate is fairly low; although spectacular results occur when it does. I empathize and continue to live on the banks of DeNile. JB

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So, 90% chance we wont have an IMS failure? Or do right side drive cars fare better somehow?

Were all screwed. Just kidding. I've owned pcars for over 20 years and have heard all sorts of potential drama on every model i've owned and...knock on wood have dodged the bullet every time. Worst thing that I've had happen was a timing belt break on a (thank God) non-interference 928 motor. I know there are those that are thinking i'm due for a big bit of karma readjustment but what the hell, deal with the issue if and when it happens. Otherwise foot to the floor delicious madness. Is it just me or do the C4S seem to have the most issues with IMS failure?

IMS: Wow, this is way I traded my 99C2 just a few weeks ago. The IMS issue truly freaked me out. I really could not sleep at night - this thread would have put me in a padded room for sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ83wUhXoL4 German Engineering - remember that Ad so well......Is this what they ment? I will get another 996 perhap a TT. Now I hear that the 996TT is not affected by this IMS issue (?) Jake - please chime in! Or I will just have to get the newest 996/997 I can afford and just ship it right to Flat6 to have all the rennovations done to the engine - perhaps Jake will cut us all a group buy on modding our engines to 400HP and make them as bullet proof as an Accord...LOL Two years ago I bought my first 911 (First German car too) always been a Honda/Acura driver. This did kinda burst my bubble of what owning a German car was all about. No doubt the 996 is an awsome car in may ways. But at least the engin e should be to most durable part in it. With out that what are we left with? Really, this is sad new regarding a car that is suppost to be represent Deutschland! I will certainly get another Porsche - If not a 996/997 perhaps a vintage 80's era with all the updates already completed. 99C2

996TT is not affected. It has the M64 that porsche has been using for many years on the race track.

Jake, I assume you are flat-6 innovations? I have been emailing a guy named charlie regarding the retro fit. But I do have a few questions abotu knowing if the current bearing is going to fail. The shop I am going to have do the bearing is a 2 hr drive away. Its an Indy shop but the tech that will do the bearing moonlights there and he is the CGT tech at the local stealer. It sure would suck if it failed on the way to the shop for the work. Any thing I can look at to assure its going to make that trip? Leaks? Currently the car has 0 oil leaks. Can I cut the oil filter apart and look for anything in there that may tell me the bearing is going? Now here is another idea I have, and I cant answer it becasue I dont know the engine. I have an endoscope, Yes the same one the doc sticks in your A$$ to check your prostate.... with the oil drained can I inspect the bearing with it, via the oil drain hole?? The car has been well maintained. Every p-dealer service has been done up to 90K. The PO claims nothing but synthetic oil has ever been in the car. It has 103,000 miles.

Yet again, super maintenance will not help with the IMS failure. This is because the bearing is sealed from the engine's lubrication. When you change the engine's oil you are NOT changing the oil that comes into contact with the IMS bearing. You have three choices with your 996: - Not worry about the IMS bearing failure or that it will effect your engine. - Take preventive measures to retrofit the IMS bearing prior to failure while updating the RMS. - Just enjoy the car and accept the fact that the IMS is the biggest weakness within the engine. Remember, you own a Porsche and the car is meant to be driven and enjoyed. At no point should someone be afraid to drive their car and to some that means a retrofit and to others that means just not worrying about it. Just be happy that we were able to do what Porsche said was impossible and create a method of bearing extraction for all models earlier than 2006 that allowed the retrofit to be applied. This time last year there was no preventive in existance for the dual row IMS bearing equipped engines. The course of action or worry is up to each owner of an M96 equipped Porsche. Its my job to ensure the knowledge on the subject is correct and to help as many installers as possible provide retrofit services.

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Jake, Not sure if you read my post or not. being you seemed to skip my questions all together. I understand all the above things. However I want to do my best to make sure the car is going to make the trip to the shop for the replacment.

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Are you having issues now? If so, you should not drive it anywhere. If not, why do you assume it will not make it 120 miles? That's not even a full tank of gas. If there is an issue or you are too afraid to drive the car for whatever reason, have it towed. Otherwise, make the drive. Jack has no way of knowing whether your car will make it or not. When the IMS goes, it goes quick (in a small percentage of cars) and usually without much warning...

If the engine is making any sounds, do NOT fire it up. I haven't read any of your posts that state any of the IMSF symptoms thus far. When a bearing has began to fail, makes noise or has IMS drip syndrome (very nasty black oil discharge from the bellhouse area) the engine's life can be measured in seconds or minutes. Once the bearing gets bad enough to alter cam timing by 16 degrees the valves will contact the pistons and the engine looks like 3 mile island inside all at once. I have one of the worst IMSF engines we have seen thus far ready to come apart this week, wait till you see these pics! Shark, I answered as many of your questions as I can here on Rennlist.

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I would mildly disagree with your comment regarding super maintenance. While what you say is true: The bearing is sealed and the oil does not lubricate the bearing, I would suggest that: More frequent oil changes help keep the acid levels in the oil low. This can only help sustain the bearing seal, keep it intact and thus able to retain the grease in the IMS bearing. In the event the seal does become compromised the bearing will receive fresh oil. Old oil of course picks up considerable loads of water and unburned fuel. Upon engine shut down the oil whever it resides begins to stratify, the various liquid contaminates separating out. This is true in the oil sump, and the hollow IM shaft. This oil with its strafied layers of acidic compounds of course comes in contact with the bearing's seal. Over time this can only negatively affect the seal. (In the sump I believe it can also degrade the rubber like material that acts as oil pan baffles to help keep the oil around the oil tube pick up.) Then to make matters worse -- once the bearing seal no longer able to keep the oil out of the bearing -- this old oil also puddles or collects in the bearing where the acids can then attack the bearing metal with eventually disasterous results. By more frequent oil/filter changes the acid levels in the oil are kept lower. This can only help prolong engine life. Additionally for those of us that keep our cars a long time more frequent oil changes help prevent wear and degradation in other areas of the engine as well. Sincerely, Macster.

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Flatbed it.

Macster, I concur with your prior post, BUT all too often I talk to owners who believe that just because they have kept their Porsche serviced that the IMS failure will not happen to them. (similar to what the OP in this thread stated) Only a couple of times last year did I talk to owners of failed engines who said their Porsche had not been well maintained prior to it's failure. The bearing beginning to fail is generally what compromises the bearing's seal- Thats when oil starts entering the bearing and the hollow shaft, then you end up with the IMS leak of death, but not all failures have this or the same symptoms.

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Looks like this. This is what we found when we opened it up to install the bearing upgrade. There had been no leakage visible from outside.

Thats a very early one, but that nasty black oil starting to drip from the 4 O clock bolt is a classic. If the oil that leaks onto the floor under the car is darker than whats on the dipstick thats when the trouble really begins.

Jake, I and many appreciate the rich discussion. Can we assume that if the engine-transmission junction has ANY sign of an oil drip (moisture, wetness, drips) that we are running a risk? Can we also assume that if the same junction is bone dry that we should continue to monitor as we do the rest of the car and get back to basics (driving the car)? Do you routinely see failed engines with absolutely NO visible signs at the junction? I am guessing probably not. Probably no owner wants to admit he never looked under his car for signs of potential engine failures once the bearing fails. My take on this informative thread is kick the tires, look under your engine and run your engine judiciously.

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So the bearing seal failing and allowing oil to enter the bearing is the beginning of the end? Interesting. Not bragging mind you, but just noting for the record this must mean my 02 Boxster with 227K miles still has an original and intact IMS bearing seal? If so, what could have possibly kept the seal intact all these years, and miles? Could it just be the luck of the draw? I will also point out that my car has received 5K mile oil/filter services from day one. (Actually, I treated it to an early oil/filter service at 2K miles, then another 3K miles later, at 5K miles, then 5K miles thereafter.) Not leading up to anything in particular, just asking, no more like thinking out loud. Sincerely, Macster.

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That engine I guess just a few revs from looking like this? Sincerely, Macster.

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Jake, Thanks I wasnt trying to be an ***. I just need to know what I am looking for. Thank you this was informative.

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Do you have to take the engine out of the car to do the work?

Mabuhay!!!! Yes I believe so.

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Depends, They make a retro fit kit that can be done in the car, then they make an entire upgrade kit that requires the engine to come out of the car and the IMS to be machined to take the new bearing. So pick your flavor!

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Poured what seemed like a quart of oil out of the shaft when they removed it.

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Never know for sure, I guess, but I was glad I had the work done.

Does anyone know of a shop that has experience performing the IMS retrofit for my 2000 996 in the Seattle area?

Yes, the retrofit can be done in-car for any M96 powered Porsche up to 2006. In the Washington area I recommend SCAN Automotive, they are one of our partners there and have done the IMSR successfully.

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How about in New Jersey Jake?

well, porsche called me today and told to get lost!! i am thinking about hiring an attorney.. any advice?

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Hiring an attorney to attempt to get Porsche to admit that the IMS is a design flaw will cost more than you could possibly hope to recover. They will keep you in court for years

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Or...as unamerican as it may sound, you can take responsibility for the cost of your loss yourself and chaulk it up to bad luck and move on. Life is full of risks. Porsche warranteed the car for a specific amount of time and miles and it was your choice to take the risk beyond that point. I feel bad for you, but I don't understand why Porsche should pay you for the fix. Talk with your wallet and move to a car from another manufacturer that makes a better quality vehicle and will stand behind their product.

An Attorney can't repair your engine or replace it and a Gavel won't solve the problem. I haven't seen anyone effectively sue Porsche yet.Unless your car is still under Porsche's warranty attempts to have them take care of this are more than likely going to be an absolute waste of time. I agree with 1999Porsche911, take it on the chin, suck it up and move on. In New Jersey contact PowerTech and talk to Jake.

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I have seen people get their local dealer to come up with some of the cost - no doubt indirectly from PCNA. But these were cars that, while they were out of warranty, had been purchased from the dealer and serviced primarily at the dealer. In both instances the owners were also long-time PCA members. IIRC they got $2k-3k towards the cost of a new engine, installed by the dealer. I know another owner whose C4S's IMS went just a few months after his warranty expired. A longtime customer of his local dealership (two new Porsches and several new Mercedes from the co-located MB dealer), he got them to pay the full cost of engine replacement. However, he is n army colonel, and the most insistent and persuasive person I know.

Dealers will generally not pay for anything.. They'll discount a portion of their profit margin on an engine, but thats about it..

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So you're saying that oil does not get past the seals? On the LN site, one of the problems they list is that oil gets past the bearing seals and contaminates/washes out the grease, and they recommend more frequent oil changes as well as using a higher viscosity and higher grade oil. I take it you disagree with them. Here you seem to be saying that the oil does get in to the bearing. Now I'm totally confused. Even if it can't actually drain out during an oil change, it would seem that fresh oil getting in would displace the old oil. Or are you saying that oil can get past the seals going in, but not get out. How is that possible?

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Attorney involvement .... very bad idea...no ROI period! 3 options: look for a low cost replacement engine, have it installed, sell it move on or sell it as is. or fix it and keep it I would not put anymore money into it than I had to...it will always be a losing proposition unless you will get many more years of enjoyment out of it after it is repaired and do not care about the economics of it.

The OE bearing is not designed to be oil lubricated... It is hard to know exactly which comes first, the chicken or the egg in regard to the failure modes of bearings. I also promote frequent oil changes, but those are not for the IMS, more for the lifters that become clogged.

If you bought the car new, you got screwed and if it is out of warranty not really their issue either. If you bought it used, I have to agree, its no ones problem but your own. The only way you are going to get anywhere is to prove it is a safty hazzard and have the TSB step in and order a recall. That si the only hope on this one. Bottom line also is, if they are under warranty, they are fixing it with out hassle and doing it quickly. Not even a chance of warranty breach.

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I disagree. It would be cheaper for Porsche to meet him halfway. Case in point, when BMW owners decided to do "class action" regarding the rear subframe mounts on the E46 cars, BMW eventually stood behind their product. Also, the occurrence (I believe) of the rear subframe failures seem to be MUCH less than the 10% that is being reported for IMS failures. Further, when early E46 M3's started spinning bearings, BMW eventually sucked it up and warrantied the engines to 100k miles (and dropped the rev limit to 7900 vs the original 8000). I can't believe 100 rpms can possibly make a difference, but apparently so. I.e. - no occurrence of engine failures for the Z3 and Z4 M Roadsters whose rpm limit is only 7900 for the same engine. I think the moral of the story is that if enough people banded together, OR a pissed off lawyer who's had the issue happen to him/her would take up a class actions suit as his/her hobby, we'd most likely have some form of concession from Porsche. Although I am not a lawyer (but I think I should have been which is another story) and that I have no IMS issues (KNOCK ON SOME SERIOUS WOOD), but if I were I would take this up as my hobby on "right" vs. "wrong". I.e. - I know manufacturers' responsibility must end somewhere... but engines grenading well before 50k miles or 5k miles is RIDICULOUS to happen within 10 years or so of ownership!!!

audi did the class action for their instrument clusters and timing belts braking on the TT's just recently....

There have to be 300,000-ish M96 engines driving around out there, since as far back as the mid-1990s. Owned, initially at least, by very well-off Type-As, we might presume. And for all those cars and all those years, nobody has ever succeeded in certifying a class. I highly doubt that anybody is going to suddenly find a sympathetic jury now, when most of the fleet is no longer in the hands of original owners and a lot of current ones bought their cars for a song. Either Porsche is fixing them and forcing owners to sign ironclad NDAs (in which case moaning about it publicly is a bad idea), or there simply aren't enough victims.

Most Porsche drivers can be divided into two groups. Those that buy or lease new cars - Many who are not even enthusiasts but instead just go for the brand and status. If they had an IMS issue it was under warranty and quickly fixed. They've forgotten and moved on to new warranteed cars. They are less likely to scour websites with the purpose of trying to maximize the value of their Porsche investments. They pay the bills at PAG and are cherished and studied by the Management wonks. Those that buy used- The used car Enthusiasts- Like me they are one Lottery ticket away from buying new. Instead we make careful purchases because the car represents a significant financial commitment. They support resale values and the mystique of the brand. The wonks don't think about this group too much partially because they can't be quantified and don't pay the bills. The wonks know that the M96 problem is diminishing every day as more engines die or get old. I had a nice converstion with Porsche customer contact today. As expected, she could offer no specifics or data on the problem( I'm sure this data is not available to her). She did offer that Porsche has offers relief on a case by case basis to this type of major problem. It's apparent that the PAG strategy is to wait this one out.

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I got pretty much the same info from a Porsche service manager not too long ago. He said that Porsche varies in how much money for tear down it wants guaranteed by car owner before any teardown to determine if Porsche will even offer any goodwill. He said many owners balk -- and I can't blame them -- when there is no assurance any goodwill will be granted. Many owners see this as a case of throwing good money after bad. And how much help is then granted is not consistent either. He said to me he sees no pattern, rhyme or reason and in the conversations with other service managers they tell him pretty much the same story.

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Ya gotta wonder, is it whoever you get on the phone? Is it how you handle the call? Does it take going in with gun blazing or a suttle, humble appraoch asking for SOME help? Again, I agree a guy like me they owe 0 if my engine fails. I bought it used for a song and I know about the issue. But how many have gotten a speeding ticket becasue they WERE speeding and then tried to fight it? And I am not one lottery ticket away from buying a new one. Fools and their money will soon be parted. As was the PO-ners of my car..... One thing I buy new is toilet paper. Now their is something worth buying new since sears stopped the catalog.

.and they generally charge 13-1800.00 to tear the engine down for an inspection, just to tell you that its scattered beyond repair (generally). Funny story: This past Friday I received a phone call from an individual, he didn't give his name or his place of work (or even that he worked for Porsche, but the caller ID didn't lie) but he asked lots of questions about failure modes and symptoms and even asked me how to use a certain tool. Out of the blue yesterday morning we received an email from an individual that has his car at that same dealership with a failed engine with the same exact symptoms as those that we talked to the mysterious "tech" about. ......

... and this is why I think we should be encouraging a dedicated, innovative aftermarket. 996s are actually insanely good cars, with one really awful Achilles heel. They're worth keeping on the road, and so far the price of doing so isn't crazy for the car you get. Want to know how bad it can get with high end vehicles that get leased and dumped? I bought a used '04 Range Rover a couple of years ago. In 18 months, it cost me $15,000.00 to keep on the road. When I finally cried uncle (where our country place is, reliability can be a matter of life and death), the black book value had fallen an additional $20,000 versus the purchase price. And why? Part of the answer is that the Land Rover community lost interest in these things as they got more complicated. It was very hard to find an indy who would touch one, which forced you into the dealership for service, and even they weren't always happy to see these trucks. No matter how much you loved your Rangie (and there was lots to love), it was simply prohibitively expensive to keep it on the road unless you're fearless with a wrench. The pre-Ford 3rd gen Range Rover was orphaned. As consumers of used cars, we don't have a lot of leverage over the company that made them. But we can do our best to encourage a strong aftermarket, just as with previous 911s. I think that's a good use of our energy.

I agree. It takes open minds from players with "No rules" to solve the problems. The Porsche aftermarket has solved lots of issues with previous engine models and we've already seen this with the M96.

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My dealership quoted $2,000 to tear down engine to "failed component" AND another $2,000 to reassemble (with bad parts) so that engine would be a valid core. For those faced with this dilema, I was able to convince the dealership and my warranty company that the following pic was "visible evidence" of the failed component.

Looks like a bad exit wound from a CSI show...

Hello All, I am highly debating on selling my current car in the spring, and buying a 4s from the states... Would it be fair to say that I would be looking at roughly $2,000 from my local Porsche dealership to do the LN Engineering IMS upgrade? I guess this is the only way to go about it...

Most Porsche Dealerships refuse to do the retrofit, the majority of service writers and etc still are under the impression that no retrofit exists or that the bearing can even be extracted. Their have been instances where Employees at Dealerships used their own credit card to place an order for a bearing.

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Jake: Are you working on having indy's who offer the retrofit? I think that I would prefer my car not to be the first attempt by someone. Do you know of a mechanic in Houston who has done your retrofit?

I am providing support for Indys all over the country to offer this service and do the job correctly. With the process being somewhat new not many Indys have done it, so you may have to go to a first timer. Thats no worry- Techs pay close attention and I offer LIVE support during bearing extraction for all first time installers.

A dealer offering or suggesting a retrofit as preventative may be caught in a catch 22. PCNA I'm sure does not want to admit the problem and does not want to endorse a product that is superior to theirs.

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Here in Ontario, that would be the ballpark, yes. Between $2000 and $2500. I agree that a dealership is likely not your best option. A really good indy is ideal. The guys who did mine learned on my car, with active coaching from Charles Navarro. They invested a lot in the learning curve, and have done several since. I can't see most dealers bothering, given the economics of a dealership shop.

PCNA has no product for a replacement IMS bearing. They offer a complete IMS with bearing, BUT not one with the early IMS drive chain found in the 99 and early 2000 996s-

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Its guys like you that keep us all sane. The 928 engine had a simular fate for a long time. From what I understand it took a INDY to figure out why the units were failing. Dude, you guys rock. The only thing that scares me about your fix it that fact you cant tell me why some fail and some don't. Your solution is to just put in a way over engineered bearing and hope it holds. But its a step in the right direction. We didnt get to Mars on the first try either. I just wish we knew more of why. I was also told that the issue seems wayyyyy less common in a tip . Is this true?

With anything mechanical there is NO WAY to absolutely know why something fails.. Sure, I could make up some big words and explain in 10,000 words why the bearing fails, but then I'd be just like every other person telling you what you want to hear.... Because thats easy. Fact is so many aspects of the engine impact the IMS that anyone that was stupid enough to stick his head out with a single failure inducing element would certainly be both a liar and a fool. The materials the IMSR bearing are made of were not available when the M96 engine was designed. They were still being used in Human prosthesis and military weapons applications and too costly for inclusion into a production automobile. I did use these materials in air-cooled Porsche engines for lifters as early as 1999 and have been working with them every since. Silicon Nitride is awesome!

Jake, You never answered my question regarding signs and symptoms of the IMS failure. Do they ALL show signs of a drip (moisture, wet or a drip). If so can preventative maintenance be to look for signs of a leak a proactively do the upgrade when warranted.

Good video showing a PPI with mechanic diagnosing "wet" junction at the engine transmission junction. This is what all 996 owner should be doing before and after purchase to monitor the IMS/RMS leaks. In reading these threads it seems no one mentions preventative "looking" to reduce the chances of engine failures. Interesting to note how the tech in the video discards the wet old drip as "a common problem" nothing to worry about...hmmm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP5FbfNrJ0A

Since you guys like the stuff here's a couple of the noise said to be the IMS after failure. 1st video sounds what I would think is IMS but the 2nd video kind of sounds mainly like a collapsed hydrolic lifter. Oh yah, so much for shutting the engine down after the sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruLdi...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ8mN...eature=related

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I'm confused. I thought that turbos didn't have this problem. Both those videos are turbos.

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I didn't answer the question partly because it would require a blanket statement I am not willing to make. No two failures are the same, as soon as I state that failures always have oil leakage prior to failure someone would prove that wrong.. I've seen some bearings that only had oil leakage AFTER the failure occurred, others leak for days or months before letting go. One would have to work with mechanical things daily to understand my position, there are no absolutes. Thats why I don't ride roller coasters.

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Joking... 5000 words will be fine.... Tee hee... I am trying to find an indy to do your retro now to my car. A place here in town called RennSport will be calling or emailing you in the next day or so. Seems like a really nice guy. His name is Charlie.

Jake: If I visit you facility do you have a show room where we can see your improvements and modifications. I travel the country and will be in ATL very soon. Question - In order to bullet proof the M96 what would you reccomend be done to the engine. - IMS for sure but what else should we consider. Thanks, 99C2

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That's because most drips from there come from the RMS and never progress into anything beyond that. Most techs have that experience. Conversely, somebody that specializes in IMS failures (and makes money off of a retrofit) has a different experience, and people on the internet have the inclination to be worried about hysteria. There are hundreds of thousands of these cars on the road, and dozens of them every weekend on track. Knock on wood, but I've yet to see a failure, or hear of one first hand in years of instructing for the PCA amongst others. I personally have put tens of thousands of miles on M96 based motors. The worst I've seen as a mechanic (don't do that anymore) was a failed cam actuator. Oddly I've seen dozens of those on M-Bs, BMWs AUDIs, etc. I find it absurd that somebody can be too worried to drive the car 200 miles (Shark Attack) to get a retrofit done without any symptoms what so ever. I think this goes in line with being primed for a problem, and reading about the worst consequences of it. It's like asking my mother (a surgeon) about a possible health issue. According to her, if I get a stiff neck after snowboarding, there's a 90% chance that I'm about to be paralyzed, and if I get some pain in my knee after running 5 miles, it's a permanent injury. Both are possibilities, neither are likely. If I listened to her, I'd have been hospitalized 6 times this week! When you know all the possibilities, you tend to worry quite a bit...

Yeah Jake, me too. What would you do to a 996 (3.6 in my case) to make it "go the distance" BTW I have had a 912E in my garage for the last 30 years....just gave it to my daughter. Love that car. Peru Red

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We do not have a showroom, my facility is situated more like a lab and testing facility more than a conventional shop... We don't see many clients face to face. I would be happy to show you around when you are in town.. We have tons of broken parts and updated parts on hand at all times. Due to the rules of Rennlist I'd prefer not to answer any other direct questions about services and etc. I am simply here to provide the most accurate general IMS info possible.

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Sadly this guy named named Murphy follows me around. You may know his name from the one law he wrote. I think the price to have this done is well worth the piece of mind. Tell ya what Ill do. ill give you the 2 grand. You put 15K in an "and" account with your name and mine. If at the end of 6 years or 100,000 miles no IMS failure you will walk with 17K. If I have IMS failure by then I take the money to put in another engine. Fare enough? Wait, tell ya what, make it 3 years 20K miles. You will never get a better return off your 15K in 3 years.

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Holy crap Jake. I didnt know we shared an office

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I don't think it's all that helpful to sit in judgement. To me, upgrading weak bits in a Porsche engine has been a ritual for decades. Nothing new there. And this stuff, well, it makes no less sense in strict economic terms than an extended warranty does. There are lots of things I've never 'seen', but still make a personal decision to protect myself against. I bet the same goes for you.

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Where are you investing your money? You think a 13.33% total return on your money in three years is unbeatable? Do yourself a favor and sell your car. The stress it is putting on you is not worth it. I cannot believe that someone is afraid to drive their car, a car that is not experiencing any symptoms of a problem, 200 miles to have preventative maintenance performed on the car. Experimental preventative maintenance I might add. Life is FAR too short to live in fear this way.

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Stess? No stress. I bought the car fully knowing I was going to have this done. I also bought it thinking this is going to drag these cars below 10K in the next 5-7 years. So I dont have the stress... I paid 17K for my toy and I have my title in hand. By the way Im from Reading, Birdsboro actually.

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I'd take it. Over the last three years, it would have beaten the Dow. Also, bonds. Also, real estate.

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Amen. I was thinking the same thing myself as I was typing. It's been a trying couple of years. Here's to hoping the future is brighter.

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I was wondering where you were going. But I am not big on the market so i had no fire power. Good on ya... Ill look you up for a fun run when I come see the folks. Im going to sign off this tread. My very strong opinion seems to be upsetting people. I will leave with: I think this is an upgrade worth every penny and i am going to have it done ASAP.

No one should be afraid to drive their car... People fall dead from aneurysms every day with no other health issues but that didn't stop me from climbing out of bed at 0400 this morning. I own a a Boxster and a 996, these were the first cars to ever have the IMS retrofit done to them and neither have one of my updated engines installed (I am building a 3.8R for my 911 in spare time now) and have not seen a failure of any of the 20 different documented modes... Both had perfect IMS bearings when I extracted them to try out the retrofit early in 2009. Anyone driving around afraid is not only a safety hazard to themselves but also the other motorists they share the road with. I hold nothing back and share everything we can about the failures of these engines, because thats reality and its what we experience everyday.

I wasted $2k on an extended warranty when I bought my car 3 years ago. The warranty expired with zero problems. If I took that $2k and had the IMS upgrade done, my car would be in much better shape today, having the possiblity of an IMS failure reduced considerably.

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I do, too. Was just trying to lighten the mood.

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Sounds good, I'll buy you a beer as long as there is no IMS talk. Do your parents live in SE PA? If so definitely look me up and well have a couple of Yuenglings.

well guys the dealer wanted 15k for a new engine, after charging me 180$ to tell that. a fellow rennlister recommended a local shop that do IMS retrofit, sent him the car last night and i get the call that the engine looks good and can be saved. great news!!!!!!

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That's awesome!!!

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Awesome news.

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I don't know that I agree with you. A bumper to bumper warranty for $2K (if that indeed what is was) sounds like a more logical use of funds than replacing the bearing. The sensors, fuel systems, and other associated parts can be mighty expensive for this car if you can't perform the work yourself. Once my CPO is up, I'm not sure which way I'm going to go. The bumper to bumper certainly has the potential for a bigger cost savings. "Yeah! I have the new IMS bearing!" and then trans bearing fails....

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That is great news! Congrats! Not to sound like a negative nancy but, did he pull the motor that quick and confirm that all is ok except for the bearing?

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That's my thinking, having had exteded warranties on the last half dozen cars (BMW, Volvo, M/B) in the family that all repaid me more than their cost. And five different dealerships and two independent shops had absolutely no problem getting paid. One call to the 800-number for authorization, never a claim denied, and they got paid on the spot over the phone with a credit card just as promised. Never had an engine or trans go however, so I can't say if big-buck repairs would've been a problem. Unfortunately, all the warranty companies I've dealt with and contacted are adamant that doing an aftermarket retrofit will void the warranty should that part fail and cause other damage. So doing the LN retrofit on my car I would have to be 100% certain it won't fail. If LN offered to pick up the tab for a new engine should their retrofit bearing fail, I would be on it in a heartbeat. Interesting coincidence, someone spotted this and sent me the link: Mark Wahlberg takes taxi home after car problems

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That is great news!!! If it was indeed your IMS bearing that failed your case seems to be an anomaly according to the failure modes presented by some here. The fact that you had time to turn down the radio to hear the noise better before the engine shut down by itself. Then, you restarted the engine and heard strange noises before shutting it down and having it towed. Very interesting� Best of luck to you with the repairs.

Congrats on the good news.. When you know more, please let us know - as stated above it it interesting that no engine damage occurred.

Could you care to share the name/info of the shop performing the IMS upgrade? I'm in miami too. thanks! joel

Have that shop save and give you the bad parts. Then post up pictures. I would like to see what failed. Rick 99 996C4 87 944S

May be irrelevant at this point but this question sticks in my mind- Does Porsche do life cycle testing on their motors? Based on my involvement with developing parts for the big three I recall that a minor change requires dozens of engines to be run for hundreds of thousands of hours under various loads and conditions. A completely new powerplant multiplies this effort many times. Any failure is analyzed, with a complete failure even more exhaustively. It seems that back in 94-95 , the engineers didn't test enough, missed something or that management decided to go ahead despite the results. Development of a completely new engine is one of the biggest expenses a carmaker faces but that's no exceuse for PAG. Back in the days of the Vega, GM used customers to run these tests but except for that instance , I don't think we've seen any major car company sign off on an engine with a flaw that would cause a significant number to disntegrate at less tha 100K miles. If they did test as they should have, I believe they knew about this

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Well, I've learned from a slightly less traumatic experience to NEVER blindly trust a Porsche dealer in situations like these: In 2008 I "lost" function of 3rd gear on my C4S Tip, so it went to my local dealer. After waiting for over 2 hours on pins & needles and after $200 the prognosis was that my transmission had an internal leak and I needed to replace it at a cost of over $11k all-in (!). So after beginning an internet search for reman units I decided to try a local indy shop which knows 996s & Tips (my mechanic doesn't). The real problem? I apparently had a gummed-up cable which was causing the Tip control module to malfunction, and the issue was easily resolved. Funny thing was, the shifter had seemed a little sticky ever since I got the car but I figured it was normal. I decided to return to the dealer, speak to the service manager about their gross misdiagnosis and demand some sort of compensation. His reply? "We would have eventually found the real cause, ONCE THE TRANSMISSION WAS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING REPLACED" (!). I was compensated for their error & left satisfied. H964, your obvious sense of relief made me remember my own...and again it's all due to our indy guys who don't stick to the factory diagnostic rules but who create their own as the case warrants.

Wow! A new transmission costs $11k ?? Holy CR@P! Seems when something goes wrong with a major component on our 996's, the dealer's first response is to just replace the part, no matter how much it costs!

It is my experience that P-car dealerships in Germany have a very high standard in connection with service, maintenance and customer support. (At least a very high standard compared to my own country's P-car dealerships.) Anyone in Germany to chime in on this? - I might be considering transporting my car to Berlin for the next service as the service level at my own dealerships isn't satisfying enough.

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That is not surprising considering that dealerships are profit centers. As long as they did not screw up something along the way on the car. Porsche for warranty work or owner of said car would give them money; the more complicated the work, the more profit.

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Yes, because that's what their factory diagnostic guides instruct them to do, even if it's not the best answer.

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Excellent!!! Any chance you'd be willing to ship that failed bearing to us for evaluation? Not many cases where the bearing has failed leave the victim with a salvageable engine as very few are caught in time or people just keep on driving. More good news: We were in the middle of a preventive IMSR today and ended up pulling a bearing that had just began to fail!!! Its the first bearing I have seen that was caught this early on in the failure process. The permanent lubricant inside the bearing had just been compromised and due to that is smells like crap! The IMS tube was filled with fresh oil, the same color as what was in the crankcase, not the nasty black oil that we normally find, meaning this oil had very recently made its way past the seals in the bearing and filled the tube. The best part is the fact that the inner race had just started to seize and spin on the bearing flange surface. It did this just enough to end up with metal transfer between the two that is very slight, but proves the bearing was caught in the middle of failure. I learned something new about this failure today and have just out of the blue started to notice a trend that I haven't noted before. The Owner noted a knocking sound and wanted it looked into and the engine made low power on it's initial chassis dyno evaluation before we took it apart, both are indicators of an imminent issue. I suppose we are lucky this one didn't fail on the dyno during the pre-procedure evaluation! I can't wait to cut this bearing apart tonight! This will make for some very good conversation and understanding.. My article and DVD just got better!

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I am a light hearted ball buster. I am glad noone got all bent over my comments.... Yes they are in Birdsboro, that about 3 mile from reading

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That is the best news I have heard all week.

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Wow, sometimes the bad news becomes good news. Nice to hear for a change.

the shop is called J & W Motorsports, located in Doral http://jwmotorsportsracing.com/ he said mine was the cleanest failure and showed me another 996 targa engine , same failure but worse he was confident about the results and i must say the guy (William) was a real enthusiast and had answers for everything. in my situation the bolt holding the bearing broke in half!! didnt think about taking a picture but it really looked no different that the pictures that have been displayed here. will keep you posted on the results, hopefully by the weekend

Jake, do you think >>>maybe<<< any early signs may show up in an oil filter? If the filter is cut apart at every change?

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Jake: That would be great! I understand about the rules, no problem. You are doing a great job/service for this M96 community and think this is very important. Honestly I did recently sell my 99-C2 because of this issue. But learning more about this I will indeed replace it with a new one and just get the issues taken care of if it means shippinng the car to you and driving it home aferwards..... Thanks, 99C2

Thanks. Do you know how much is gonna end costing you?

Excellent!!! ....The Owner noted a knocking sound and wanted it looked into and the engine made low power on it's initial chassis dyno evaluation before we took it apart, both are indicators of an imminent issue. I suppose we are lucky this one didn't fail on the dyno during the pre-procedure evaluation! Jake: You mention above on your recent post the owner noted a knocking sound....I had that kncking sound too recenetly before I sold my car. Now as I remember that knocking dissipated after it warmed up. That's what I recall anyway. I wonder if I was headed in that direction too! Wow!!!! 99C2

Damn, this thread is on fire ... !

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It may not be proper protocol to question a board sponsor but here goes. If Porsche, the manufacturer, has known about the IMS problem for nearly 10 years (up to the 997) - making several revisions to the IMS & spending probably millions of dollars without success, what are the odds that a small shop could successfully manufacture a defect free product? The fact that a customer may not yet have suffered a failure of your IMS does not establish your product as a success. Just something to think about.

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And believe me that gets brought up all the time.. What you don't understand is the fact that we are not focused on producing hundreds of thousands of cars, engines or bearings. IF it were a possibility to remove the IMS with the engine in the car and apply a totally different concept, I would. The fact is the IMSR bearing is the most high quality bearing that can be produced with the most advanced materials that will still fit in the confines of the engine, with the engine assembled and in the car. The IMSR was not originally intended for preventive measures- it was originally developed to be a very specialized complimentary component for a product line of updated M96 engine components. The bearing was originally developed and used to solve issues just like H64's where an engine would be TOTAL JUNK after an IMS bearing failure without the bearing replacement being a possibility. Over time the procedure has become a preventive and that preventive just saved a Rennlist member 15,000.00 today and I had him come by to take pictures and smell the scorched bearing! What matters more than the bearing quality it's self is the procedure and tools we have developed for bearing extraction. This time last year people were asking the question "Can the IMS bearing be extracted and replaced?" and now this year the question is "How durable is the retrofit bearing?" To me the procedure and tooling is the biggest key as now even if someone wants to change the bearing every 10K miles that can be done- it could not last year. As I said earlier, when the M96 engine was originally developed the material that makes up the hybrid composite IMS bearing was not available to the automotive industry. We have simply developed a bearing, procedure and tooling to allow what Porsche said was impossible to be a reality. Doing this has saved many engines thus far and will continue to over time. We are doing the best we can given the constraints that Porsche has presented with the M96. Just because Porsche didn't recognize this problem and create a "fix" for it doesn't mean that a group of innovative hard chargers with determination can't make it happen. On many occasions the Porsche aftermarket has solved problems that the manufacturer did not/ could not...

thats how it looked ! http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/13/mark-w...-takes-a-leak/

Quotes source post: 7220672

Honestly I commend you for your business savvy. You were able to convince everyone that a small shop could solve a problem that a billion dollar car manufacturer couldn't solve in almost 10 years. I read something recently that really caused me to think - a study suggested that the average IQ in the US is about 100. If true, this would explain a lot. In this situation its probably more-so a fear based reaction.

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Seriously? You read a study that suggested that? **detect humorous sarcasm** A couple things. Average is not a derogatory term. It spells out EXACTLY what you are supposed to be. Average is what is referred to as the 50th percentile. What does that mean? It means that 50% off the population is above that value and 50% are below that value. An IQ of 100 is a standard mean set in a normal distribution of IQ scores. Almost 70% of the population (68%) have an average IQ. That would be all those within +/- 1 standard deviation of the standard mean of 100 (85-115). What does that tell you? Only 16% of the population have an IQ above 115! Further, IQ is NOT a measure of smarts. It's a measure of general knowledge compared to a population that the distribution is normed against. Is there a correlation between IQ and intellect, job attainment, etc? Absolutely. These percentages are not something you need to read in a study and question if they are true. They are mathematical fact. Damn, I hate getting dragged into stats mini-lectures. ....and now back to our regularly scheduled programming "As the M96 IMS turns"

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Your understanding of humor is similar to your understanding of statistics. :-) Wasn't it you who stated that the number of IMS failures was statically insignificant? Please step away from the keyboard or you'll find yourself in another self-imposed timeout due to yet another meltdown.

You need to find that post as I did not say that. What I have said time and time again that NOBODY knows the number of IMS failures. If you think my understanding of statistics is below average, then I invite you to come sit in on one of my stats lectures. Maybe you'll learn something? Don't be an ******* hiding behind your keyboard. I never attacked you and made sure to explain I was being humorous yet you feel the need to? Stay classy.

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Seriously, if I was interested in listening in on one of your "lectures" I could read one of your thousands of posts (by the way, did it reset when you hit 20k or did you ask a moderator to adjust it because the number showed you had no life) where you repeatedly announce that you are a statistics instructor. I hope you're discussing your self-esteem issues with your therapist because, statistically speaking, you have problems.

jw97c2s......expected response. Enjoy your insecure life that is pumped up by attacking people and trying to push buttons anonymously. Maybe the old me would be baited to continue this worthless banter, not now. Enjoy.

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Good to see the therapy is working but please stop posting so much or you'll be forced to have a moderator re-adjust your post count again. Have a nice day.

Seriously - I thought these days were gone, glad to see you keeping them alive BC w/new name

WTF...your comments are hilarious....thanks for the comedy relief....much needed on this thread........ It is true that Jake Raby is a businessman, and obviously a car enthusiast, but he also is providing a product to assist Porsche owners of the 996 in keeping their cars on the road, if they choose to keep these cars.......just as any other repair or aftermarket part business..........and they do hope to make a profit as a business....he stepped in on an opportunity when Porsche turned their back on purchasers of their brand.... I personally had 3 IMS issues within 80K on a C4S covered under warranty and was advised by various Porsche dealer techs to sell the car after the warranty expired, which I did, and went on to another car brand. That is one of the consequences for Porsche with their handling of this issue, lost business over time.......they evaluated that risk and moved on..... Porsche did not admit there was an issue for 10 years, will never admit they had a bad design or communicate the percentage of IMS failure........... Porsche 996 owners are just looking to make the best of the situation and are referring to this board for information and opinions to help in their decision.... making......GFAK.....your superior intellect will figure that out....

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Dell, Handled like the gentleman that you are. Don't feel the need to reply, some people just have to get in the last word. Charlie

Quotes source post: 7222003

I said I was going to stay out of this thread but I can't with this comment. if Porsche came up with a retrofit solution, The lawyers I am sure, have told them this admits guilt. I would bet they were told (behind closed doors and not in writing or email) how long they had to produce the problem engines without looking like thay made a design change for no apparent reason. I had to look at Jakes solution and choose if I thought it was going to work. I made the choice to run with it. As I made the choice to buy a car with the potential issue. I will be right up front. I'm not sure its going to go 100K its really not fixing the problem, its just putting in a bigger, harder bolt. (so to speak) All we know at this time, they fail. Jake feels it us the fault of an under-spec bearing for the load. He has consulted a bearing expert. He has done his homework. He certainly knows more about it than I do. Indys can know more than a big manufacture. I sell software to a specialized industry. A lot of it.... I know the product better than the manufacture. Other dealers call me for an opinion and they have a good chance I have a solution when the manufacture has failed them. So your fight that just because he is a little guy he can not have a good solution, Just doesn't cut it with me. Honestly, How much money do you think it is going to make selling $600 retrofit kits? I feel his intentions are sincere as a fellow enthusiast. He had the ability and resources to look into this. He did and he came up with something. Jake, Thanks. We need people like you.

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+1

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Thanks Charlie You are right, some people like to come in, start crap for which they don't even have a stake in the claim (a 993 guy?), push buttons, and then see if they can bait some into arguments. Like I told him, the old me might be easily ticked off. Not anymore. I see the worthless banter it becomes.

As I was reading this thread my PC started making a loud metallic knocking sound. I immediately shut it down, and now I'm using my laptop.

Now that's some funny ****

I'm done - on multiple levels

Quotes source post: 7222700

Amen to that - anyway like Jake stated, it's not a matter of retrofitting a bearing that will go 100k miles. It's about having an option available if you want to try to avert a possible IMS bearing failure, which the good people at Porsche hadn't given us. Besides, smaller independent companies can sometimes come up with the best innovations. I work in IT, this happens all the time and is why small start-ups get snapped up by bigger corporations who recognize the business opportunity. Google for one has done it many times...you think they came up with the Android OS themselves? Nope. How about Apple & iTunes? That was created from an existing product also developed by a tiny start-up, and look what it became. You get the idea...

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Um, no. You have just defined 'median'. The 'average' specimen in a data set can be anywhere in the spectrum, or even nowhere. A bit surprised by this. Sorry to hijack such an entertaining thread, but I can't resist a high horse...

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It doesn't seem that way to me. You have to be very very fortunate, like the OP, to have an engine survive a failure. I think that I will take Jake's advice and put it in when I need a clutch.

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It must have been one of these .

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lol ... I was waiting for someone to point that out. Since the cat is out of the bag now also catch the part about IQ being a measure of 'general knowledge'? I think people familar with the Wechsler IQ test would strongly disagree. Block design, pattern recognition, coding, and matrix completion go far beyond general knowledge.

IQ has become so colloquial a term that I figured there would be no joy in getting all pedantic about that one. But statistics? Fish in a barrel. Of course, I personally never hit 'Post' without lots of careful, sober second thought. Always do my research, vet sources, that kind of thing. No sirree, you'll never find me popping off and making an error or a jackass of myself. Simply does not happen. Hardly. Much.

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Hmmff. Amature our. I don't even make typos.

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I made a bad choice of words...what I meant was that Jake's bearing presents an option for those who want to avoid an IMS bearing failure

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No high horse, just fact. so, why we're at it..........YOU are incorrect (but are also "correct"....so keep reading ). I'm sure you read up on this before you posted it, didn't you? Median has nothing to do with the average (mathematical mean) which is what I was referring to. To help you come down from YOUR high horse as well so we can chat at the same level .......simply put, a median is just the MIDDLE number in an entire data set. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I will give you this...technically, you are correct. By default, the median give us the middle value which results in a value that 1/2 is above and 1/2 is below (but the 50th percenitle as well) so I can see how you interpret that. HERE'S THE KEY.......in the context of what we are talking about (IQ)....it sits on a normal distrubtion with a mean (average) and b/c it's normalized, the median will equal the mean. We don't use median in IQ as the purpose of median is to remove to outliers from the mix. This is obviously much more complex than the face value we are paying it here in a forum plus I need a drink. So.....I offer you the same. There are extras seats in the course.....come on by anytime for the full interpretation p.s. read up on normal distributions as well p.s.s. it's ok, we ALL will make an jackass of ourselves, statistically speaking WAIT A SEC........ARE YOU JUST SCREWING WITH ME?!?!??!?!?!?!!? Looks like I will concede you are correct as well so we owe eachother a beer. Care to share it after my stats lecture?

Wait a sec, wait the hell was this thread about anyway?

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DO NOT START THAT BACK UP. I called the manf for you. They said if you are willing to commit 3K for us to "look at it" They "Might" help out with the 15000$ repair. Fare enough? When do you want us to tear it down? By the way we have 6 of them in our shop with the same issue. But their is no issue with it at this time.

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Damn, that is some kind of expensive PC

Something tells me the information and education portions of this thread are history. All I'll say is the 10% rule is certainly applicable here... That is 10% of any group will bitch, moan and complain about anything they possibly can... Another 10% thinks that everyone wants to rip them off thats a Vendor, needless to say those people can spend their money elsewhere. (probably with someone that will rip them off and doesn't even own a Porsche)

Not history. Just come before post 291

Actually, Dell, I didn't have to read up on anything. I'm pretty comfortable with my statistics bona fides, after 30 years of working with market research and polling data (although, being in marketing, I'm probably a lot more wild-*** about interpretation than you are ) I was calling you out on a much more basic level than the one you responded at: An average is a set of values totaled and then divided by the number of values. A median is the point in a spectrum of values at which there are an equal number above and below. It's essentially the 50th percentile. So, for example, let's suppose we had five guys score their satisfaction with a Porsche upgrade. Four give it a 1, and one gives it a 10. The average score is 2.8, which is some distance from the 50th percentile. Setting aside the fact that the margin of error in this case is +/- a squillion percentage points, it demonstrates how incredibly misleading an average can be. A more useful way to characterize this data would be to say, "4 out of 5 users hate this upgrade, and 1 out of 5 absolutely loves it." So, you see, this discussion wasn't entirely irrelevant after all. Heh.

So we have more in common that I would have guessed. I can't type anything more academic as my brain is starting to seep out my ear. I'm up against a deadline on a research paper edits and desperately need a drink...... So.....how about that beer?

Its a car folks. We have a choice; retrofit it or not.

Retrofit what?

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Your lectures of course. Some people just don't understand.

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Done. As a matter of fact, since I'm working from home today, I'm actually going to have one for real. Funny, before I met you guys, "the intermediate shaft" was how I described my divorce experience. Which, I hasten to add, was a lot more expensive. I have yet to buy my Porsche a house.

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Bruce, I would have dropped the adjective and capitalized the noun....

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Trying to describe my students? First round is definitely on me

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Hmmm....you got me thinking... Didn't anybody notice or catch this post at all??

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Strange world. Seen funnier things in combat zones It's called the plug and play generation my friend. Of course this has a whole lot to do with IMS's.

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Yes, but fearful to give it(BC) much attention!!

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I'm a changed man too. The old me would've commented about the fact that a marketing guy called him out on the only area that he had any degree of confidence in - resulting in many hours of additional therapy. But the new me won't do that. Maybe we can all have a beer together sometime.

As I told Bruce, first beer is on me. I can put everything as water under the bridge as my skin is thick. Sure, the old me would have gone to task for page after page of rebuttals. I further understand that typing on a computer is totally different than speaking face-to-face. Time to start the push in 2010 for removing as much negativity in the forum. The last thing we want is for this to turn into the 993 fourm Just messing with ya!

Its like a love fest this thread is a perfect example of why I cant go to the OT board.... moves too fast too much said too little said I cant tell who is mad at who or who is joking or which side I am on I dont even want to hug any more

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or every owner could sell ......

Quotes source post: 7225137

sadly becasue of the issue dragging down resale values, I am sure many are financially buried in them with up-side-down financing or leasing. Or just in complete denial that the car they paid 30-40K for 18 months ago has decreased in value by a staggering amount and just refuse to sell at that number. I do feel very very sorry for these people. Im not one of them....

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All this can be turned around with the next time the clutch is replaced. Its only a few hundred dollars extra. Why cry about this until then?

Quotes source post: 7225219

well said! And as for the cars losing values, well it does suck but cars like these are NOT investments. It is what it is. It's not going to stop me from enjoying my car. If I had waited a couple of year I could have probably bought allot more 996, maybe a GT3 or TT but that would be 2 years that I did not get to enjoy my car. 996 is still one of the best Sports car/GT bargains out there.

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exactly, Thats why I feel this problem needs exposed as fast as possible and a proven solution needs implimented. Its the only way this car will not end up the way of the 928 on value.......

Quotes source post: 7225157

The Economy and the credit situation has affected the prices more than "the issue". 17.3% real unemployment, people no longer able to dip into the "second mortgage" candy jar, job security, banks not willing to finance 10 year old cars, this is what is affecting 996s. All Luxury cars have really taken a beating in the past 18 months- IT IS NOT JUST 996's. I also found 3 things when I was shopping for my 996. Many people were indeed upside down in the cars, many were 1st time Porsche buyers (bought car from childhood dreams) and many were not aware of IMS or what it was. (some thought IMS was RMS) Another thing was thay had spend a lot on their dream car and were tired of the expensive maintenance at the dealer or Indy. (ie. $2000~5000 in receipts over the past 2 years) That $$ reality would sour you more than worring about a IMS. Being a DIYer (and enjoy it) is the way I justify sports cars.

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This table models an approximate depreciation for cars. (just a rough calculator) Mileage, condition, and uniqueness will also have an effect. A car with ~$2000 depreciation/ year is a deal. year car value dep % val lost 1999 $70,000 2000 $56,000 20% $14,000 2001 $47,600 15% $8,400 2002 $40,460 15% $7,140 2003 $36,414 10% $4,046 2004 $32,773 10% $3,641 2005 $29,495 10% $3,277 2006 $26,546 10% $2,950 2007 $23,891 10% $2,655 2008 $21,502 10% $2,389 2009 $19,352 10% $2,150 2010 $17,417 10% $1,935 2011 $15,675 10% $1,742 2012 $14,108 10% $1,568

check the value of these cars in Europe, still pricey, still the mystique me thinks.

Quotes source post: 7225273

Amen.

As with religion, it seems like the fewer the facts we have, the greater the arguments. Seems like Raby is offering a product, which replaces the factory design. The best guesses are, Jake's product will hold up over time. But only time will tell. My personal opinion (which is of limited value) is that I don't care for sealed bearings--especially for something that would see a lot of revolutions over time. So, I'm inclined to use Raby's product when my CPO runs out--as a matter of principle if nothing else. On the human factors side....it's not surprising that if you are confident that it won't happen to you, the expense of the bearing update seems foolish. (I have seen car owners spend more money than this on ornamentation I would not want on my car.) If you think the frequency of failure is "high" (however you may define that) or in general, if you expect that if a bird craps, it's your car it will hit....you're a lot more motivated to buy what Jake is selling. It will be interesting over time to see how the evidence (however much or little of it we have) pans out.

Quotes source post: 7225320

Im not arguing, Im talking. I like your facts. But this is a special interest car. My car was 70K new. I just piad 17.... and thats not unusual right now on a 99-01. Quick in my head math, thats like 75%. On a Porsche. I think you need to get your numbers in the past 911.. Such as 993 and below. This doesnt hold water when I couldnt touch an = 993 for under 21K

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That pretty much sums it up IMO. I sometimes think of the extra amount of car I could have afforded by waiting a couple of years, but now my circumstances are different and so I wouldn't be inclined to spend the $$ on a car, so where's the win? Besides, why does everything have to be about money & "value" anyway?? Part of life is about joy & experience, and not "how much can I save". Of course, others may financially enjoy their retirement more than I likely will, but health is the great equalizer at that point - that's all I can hope for.

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I understand- I was giving a trend model for the 996. The 993 is a unique situation, with the "last air-cooled 911" mystique. The owners I know are afraid to drive their car because it will increase the mileage and lessen the value. They become garage queens. Give me a 996 I drive daily and not worry about value. I see 996's like the 951 - great value and underpriced - perfect reason to buy and drive for many years. Mine is similar to yours and bought it at $17k. I bought a 356 a few years ago for $4.5k, sold it for $16.5k and kick myself for ever getting rid of it. I'm just saying I think the IMS affects values less than other variables. I've owned many cars and quit worring about value.

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I am right there with you on buy then to drive them. Right now the 996 is, IMO the best bargain going on the line-up. This is why I bought one with the intent to do the retro fit. But, I think this IMS is impacting the value hard. You said the 993 is a unique situation. I dont know if I agree there. Look at any past 911, for its age, even if its medium-nice still pulls will over 10K. If they are nice a 15-16 YO 911 will still pull inthe 20's. Its hard to buy >any< 911 for under 13-14 no matter the age. Our cars are already in that price range and they are at most 11 YO.

And as it's been said time after time on these boards: these cars are made to be driven & enjoyed, which is what makes them such excellent daily drivers. And that goes for the older models as well as the 996. It's not like it's a 356, '73 RSR, or a 959. The 996 was built in pretty high volumes and is not destined for collector status no matter what people may delude themselves into thinking about it's potential future value. If an owner wants to garage the car so they can extend its life and admire its beauty for as long as possible, that's good. But doing so in an effort to preserve or increase it's value is misguided. I'd love to be proven wrong in time, but I personally just don't see the avg 996 increasing much beyond today's values. So why sweat it?

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This tread has gone in many differnt directions, I think you missed a post, we started talking about price when someone mentioned the current owners could sell the car if they wanted to. That went into the fact that many owners >may< simply be to up-side-down in leasing or financing to actually get out if they want out. We are not sweating its value. It was more a matter of has the IMS issues effected value?

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+1. I paid $34.5K for my car 3 years ago and have dumped around $15K worth of Mods and maintainance costs into it. 24K miles later. Am I upside down on it financially? No, but it is costing me about a $1.19 per mile for my miles of smiles. That being said, I would never trade it for anything else and imagine its no different than say owning a M3.

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3 years and 4 mos. ago I bought MY 99 with 35k miles on it and have enjoyed owning the car from the start, and paid $33k . My mods have been few other than new tires. I have no regrets at all and would(will) do it again when I get the itch for a newer Porsche.

I agree. Its the mods that empties your wallet with these cars.

I just got my quote to have the retro kit done to the car. THIS INCLUDES A CLUTCH 2300.00. Worth every cent. Plan on giving him the car in a week or two. What did I see on another board "Let the mods begin"

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you just shush up with that kind of trash talking!!

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For sure the IMS issue has affected values, I've seen multiple references to it in a couple of UK Porsche enthusiast mags' 996 buyer's guides - as well as others - which may put potential buyers off. However, the same could be said that: SAI & valve guide issues may have affected the 993's values, even though being the last air-cooled model outweighs that; Broken head stud issues may have affected the 911/911SC's values; Engine reliability (& rust) issues have definitely affected the 1974-77 911's values; In short, it's just more of the same. Just on a more serious scale.

anyone think that the 997.1/.2 and possibly the 996 might not depreciate as quickly since they might be the last non-VW porsches?

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I think it's entirely possible, but only for the 997.2 I also think that Porsche sharing vehicle platforms w/ VW will be fine, but unfortunately it may work the other way too - not a fan. Shark Attack was right...we've gone off on so many tangents here! But it's all good conversation.

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+1. Seems that many previous 911s had issues during its evolution. Good point.

My problem is that I was hoping to take advantage of the financial crisis and the folks that are as a result upside down in their 996/boxsters. But - these cars have IMS issues. Dammit- even the vultures can't win.

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Thats not true, this is being delivered tomorrow, 17K New clutch and retro Bearing, 2300. In the car for under 20K. Ya know one vulture to another. Just dont **** on my windsheild.

nice car shark... does it have 17k miles? and less than $20k wow... its not salvaged is it?

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I think he meant $17,000 for the car and $2,300 for the IMS bearing. So less than $20,000 for the car.

Good hunting Shark.

well guys, i got the car back today from the shop and its running superb!! this guy did an amazing job!! the only light damage found was 1 oil pump which we changed, otherwise, everything else looked great! since we were there, i had him replace the water pump and the head gasket as it showed a potential leak down the road.. i had a new clutch and rms so, i didnt have to anything there.. here is the twist!! it turns out my car has an updated engine !!whaaaaaaaaaat!! yes, according to the shop , my engine is an 05 engine which had all 997 parts including apparently the updated head design as we had to replace the head gasket !! i have no previous records of this, so i ended up doing some due diligence to find out it was done under warranty by the original owner when the car had 33k miles, in 06, which means my UPDATED ENGINE had only 30k miles more or less when the IMS failed!! i cant believe porsche didnt even mention that when i filed the claim, they just sat on it !! anyway, i highly recommend these guys, they are enthusiasts and do very very clean work. and that was my IMS experience hope it helps

so what was done to prevent the issue from returning in another 30K? (im glad to hear you are terrorizing the streets once again!)

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yes this is correct, 103K miles.

so did you end up replacing the engine or was the engine rebuilt? i always thought if the ims went out the easiest way was to replace.... so what was the final cost for the repairs?

if engine was replaced in 06 shouldn't it have the much beefier ims update already? hmmmm..... got to wonder what porsche was doing when they installed an "updated" motor... glad to hear your back on the road...

I don't know how much beefier the IMS was in 06 but I believe it was still a sealed bearing which was the bigger issue.

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Oh no! Inclement Mush & Snow (IMS) failure IMS failure = Interstate Motorist Shooter (cops with laser and radar guns). They confiscate for 30 over or 100mph here. Fail this one and you are really hurting. IMS failure = In My Storage for winter IMS failure = I Motor Slowly

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Rarely.......

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LOL,,, Thats funny!

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This is truly unacceptable... What comes around goes around... I'm glad VW stuck it to them and now owns them.

From what I understand, Tiptronics are less prone to the IMS failure. What percentage of these failures are Tiptronics? Jake...have you personally seen or worked on any Tiptronics with the IMS failure?

how much did it cost to fix it? PM me if you don't want to post. Thanks... I'm glad it worked out joel

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In the interest of not spawning any more false internet rumors than we already have going...he said: The 05 engine still had the smaller single-row IMS bearing.

I have owned a succession of Porsches�my first was a �57 Speedster, back when they were an inexpensive alternative to an inexpensive coupe! But no more. When I sold my 964 to move up to a newer car, I sadly wrote off both 911s and Boxsters in my price range because of the motor problems. Porsche�s refusal to acknowledge the design flaws, and the failure to correct them for so many years. I looked at XK8s and SLKs, and now own an SLK. Its not a Porsche, but it will run forever without (very) expensive repairs. Jim Ellis Porsche, a fine dealership, no longer gets my maintenance and repair business, and my PCA membership ends at renewal time. I am not at all happy about this, but excellence can no longer be expected.

Voting with your feet (so to speak) is probably the best way to deal with Porsche's shortcomings on the 996's and 997's. If one doesn't like the way a corporation does business than not doing business with the corportion is a very appropriate response. However, there will always be a few die hards like myself, that love the cars so much that we continue to give our business to Porsche. I have been driving them for over 35 years. And lots of new buyers will ocme the the table that aren't really aware of the problems. But I do think that Porsche has a challenging market ahead of them, and can't really afford to lose customers. Maybe Volkswagen will make them better in the future, who knows. But with Volkswagen owning Porsche the idea that they don't, or won't have the assets to deal with such design/quality issues in the future rings kind of hollow.

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Out of curiosity, did you spend some time on SLK forums before you made your choice?

If your "experience" w/the 996 is from message boards on the internet, I suspect you'll think of them as very unreliable. I understand there are examples that have failed/broken, etc. but that's been very different from my personal experience, and that of all the folks I see regularly at track events, etc. not to mention that practically every source that rates the reliability of more than just Porsches. Consumer reports, T�V reports, etc consistently have ranked the Boxster/996 line up to be some of the most reliable cars produced... I have to second Bruce's point. As somebody who's worked on late model Benz's (as well as earlier examples), I cannot imagine owning a "modern" Mercedes, they're scary in terms of reliability/maintenance costs, not to mention depreciation. I find it particularly interesting that your basis for getting an SLK over a 996 was it's reliability.

The updated 997 style bearing can't be replaced without engine disassembly. This is because the IMS bearing is larger than the access bore in the crankcase. What bearing was it replaced with? Sure that was a reman engine? Sounds kinda like a smorgasbord of parts that don't add up. Glad yoder the engine was saved- thank goodness for the retrofit process. Success like this is hard to argue with.

Now that we are back on topic (IMS that is), I am curious to know about people's experience with factory remanufactured engines. I bought my 1999 C4 in October because the engine had been replaced in fall 2008 and had only about 20K miles on it. Based on what I read here, it's unlikely to be any more reliable than the original. Is that a safe presumption? Therefore this thread has been valuable to me in terms of my desire to enhance the longevity of my car... I am now going outside to drive it.

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Well said,For the first time I drove my car more than 3 miles (400 miles last night to a service call). I got to say, It is a very nice car. Mine is worth saving.

A year ago my neighbor had the IMS blow up on his 04 996 C4S Tiptronic with 56k miles, original owner, dry engine and engine oil changes at 5K with Pennzoil 5W/40. This was his garaged kept beauty and he drove the car almost daily, no track events and dealer serviced. This is an engineer who has owned Porche cars for over twenty years and was religious about his driving habits. He decided to sell his car for pennies (blown engine) and bought an 09 SLK 55 AMG. I asked him why the Benz...he replied.... no more wasted Forum time, reliable, more compliant ride, proven race engine design and versatility of a roadster. Don't we just love these cars (which cars) too much...Hmmmm...Let�s hope Porche got their act together with the new 09 engines.

Not sure why your neighbor was running Pennzoil 5W/40, should have been running a full synthetic. But this is just another example of how maintenance has little to do with IMS bearings going bad. Just a poor design. You see cars with very low miles and great maintenance have IMS bearings go, and others with high mileage and so so maintenance not have problems. These failures seem pretty random.

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Not the cause of the IMS failure but sure as hell doesn't help the rest of the components! I wouldn't put Crudeoil, I mean Pennzoil in my edger!

Pennzoil Full Synthetic Platinum 5W/40 is on the Porche approved list. I personally dont give a fuc..... what you put in.

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...which, frankly, is not consistent with failure due to "a poor design". A "poor design" might experience some variation in mileage-at-failure, but it would almost certainly correlate to some other variable, such as maintenance or degree of use. A "poor design" would fail sooner with suboptimal maintenance and/or hard-duty usage. I won't dispute that a sealed bearing in this application is a curious if not bizarre choice, and certainly there's no doubt they fail. But that randomness is more suggestive that either the tolerances of the bearings or the final assembly tolerances--or both--are all over the place. Someone called "Hartech" in the UK on another forum said that the bearings fit very tightly, more so the more the attaching nut is torqued down. He hypothesized that some of them may be running hotter and fatiguing sooner than others. That's the most plausible explanation I've read thus far, in light of the fact these failures seem to not correlate consistently to any other variable.

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but now you can get the infamous LS corvette motor, whats the low down on that option, i've heard both sides, but i've heard that porsche enthusiast definitely frown on that, could anybody explain why, vette motors are cheaper, more hp, easier to work on, definitely easier to find a mechanic, parts are alot easier to find. i could go on, can someone tell me why to get another 996 motor, besides being the original motor.

Thread gets to around page 20 and is RUINED - we never get to Hear what happened or anything...so if your about to spend an hour reading this thread from the begining dont waste your time, pretty much the guys engine IMS fails, porsche wont help him cuz hes' out of warranty, indy shop finds that can actually salvage the engine cuz it wasn't that bad of a failure, then PEOPLE ARGUING AND TALKING ABOUT NOTHING in last 10 pages

thanx for that.. nick

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love it!

Well the cars reputation is ruined now. 5 dolla I give you 5 dolla for da car. Not too good at acting chinese or korean I guess. So what's with the car? Sold or what?

Horse dead. Beating continues.

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www.Porscheenginefailure.com has.... FAILED! Didn't pay his server bill I guess.

please delete

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Are you referring to the Scan Automotive in Vancouver BC? If so, is there a shop closer in the states ? Thanks, Evan

So, there was an IMS failure - engine didn't need to be replaced. I'm going to consider this 996 IMS Myth Busted #3.

good for you

Who the heck is digging up all these old ims threads. Prices are starting to come back, stop beating horse.

so the IMS died, but the engine lives?..... anymore details?

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993 owners, they're trying to keep their prices artificially high.