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YOUR RESEARCHPurchase Early 996 vs C4s
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Replace on mine
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so was replaced likely very early on in its life, the IMS was/is dual row and has been replaced on mine.
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so was replaced likely very early on in its life, the IMS was/is dual row and has been replaced on mine.
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spot welding) were used on the early 996 models, but there were more hands assembling the cars unlike today.
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Unlike the ferroprint that was used on the M96.03, ferrostan has shown to be more resistant to flaking off.
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While I think the C4S is probably the best looking of all 996, primarily because it takes the Turbo wide body and adds the iconic center reflector, but that's about it for me.
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I am planning to purchase a 996. I have two I am considering and they are quite different. An early amber headlight coupe with 30k miles. The other is a 2004 C4s Cabrio with 80k miles.
both very clean cars. Early car has 30 plus service records at the dealer and is a one owner. Sounds great but it seems some worry about lack of use. The C4s has had the clutch and ims replaced and is in very good condition.
it�s a conundrum both are in the $30k range.
Obviously they're very different cars.
A 99 one owner with those miles and records is special. Not having seen the car $30k seems undervalued. I'm biased but would lean towards that.
If you're buying to drive, the only rule here is buy what you like.
As a general rule of thumb, coupes with manual transmission will always be valuable than cabriolets. If the '99 coupe has amber lenses that more than likely it's an early build '98 model and that's what you want, IMHO. I have some strong reasons for that and happy to share. However, on either car you really need to get the car checked out and research the serial number on the engine. That will tell you if the engine is the original factory or replaced at some point. Service records would be a big plus. C4S is a sharp looking car, but since it uses the M96.03, this means the dreaded small single row bearing and well-known to suffer from bore scoring. Again, PPI is a must.
Thanks for the quick replies everyone. I have driven some but not a 4s and unfortunately the car is not local to me. I have read a lot about them and while different most seem to agree they are both great cars. This is what makes it a difficult decision. The coupe with such low mileage is so tempting and he has amazing maintenance history as well. The only worry here is the lack of use I mean it was drive less than 1500 miles per year. Service was done routinely though at Porsche dealership ahead of schedule.
the IMS doesn�t bother me so much as I can deal with that. The bore scoring is much more worrisome. Are the later cars more prone to the scouring ? I have been told they all have it to some degree. Some degree is the key word.
Unless you really love the wide body look of the C4S, I would take the 99 Coupe by a mile. The weight difference between a narrow body coupe/C2/996.1 and a C4S is very significant -- it's not a subtle difference in driving feel. I normally post the weight difference, but I think it pisses people off, so I won't. The early 996.1 has the dual row bearing IMS (combined with less internal stress due to 3.4 vs 3.6) and the 3.4 in the 99 is far less prone to bore scoring than the 3.6.
I think most find the coupe looks much better than the cab, but that is obviously a personal preference. That said, the market typically values the coupe higher, all things being equal. To me (having owned C4 and C2 996.1 (though never a C4s), I strongly prefer the driving feel of the 2wd. There are several RL threads of people removing the front drive on C4 and/or C4s because of the driving feel. The 1500 miles a year on the 99 wouldn't bother me at all given that it was well maintained.
It would be best if you could drive them both, but I don't think it will be close if you do get to drive both.
Hey thanks for the response. I was all set to pick up the coupe today. Unfortunately I discussed with the wife and she likes the C4S and I get that it�s a pretty car. Black with the Carmel leather it�s very sharp. Anyway it�s my car and I am leaning towards the hard top. We already have an SL55 for top down driving and I like the sound of a 30k mile 996. $30k seems like a good buy at this point in time. Sure I could buy a lot of cars for $30k but is have always wanted a 996.
ambers with lower mileage, more records, and its a coupe? easy decision IMO.
C4S is nice, but a cabrio isn't what you'd buy one of these for, doubly so as you already have a convertible.
I believe the 99 has a cable throttle, as opposed to the later models with drive-by-wire throttle actuators (E-gas).
I like my E-gas car, but I have an inkling that a cable-actuated throttle would be much better.
edit: I�ve never tried a 996 with a cable-actuated throttle.
What's your use case? Are you buying it as a driver's car or is it for you and your wife to cruise on road trips?
I recently had the opportunity to drive a 996 40th anniversary edition (with X51 engine and LSD) back to back with a C4S and the weight difference and handling characteristics were profound. C4S is a looker (although as people have noted, the cab takes away a bit over the coupe), but the Carrera is by far the better driver's car.
I really wanted a C4S before I did these test drives, but after trying both out, I'm firmly in camp C2 for driving.
Where are you in Chicago? I�m in Old Irving Park. If you want to meet up. I have an early build 06/98 with all the options I was looking for after selling my 2002. I was looking for a 40AE at the time, non available with maintenance records or were pretty much overpriced.
PM me if you want. Mike
While I think the C4S is probably the best looking of all 996, primarily because it takes the Turbo wide body and adds the iconic center reflector, but that's about it for me. As others have mentioned, it adds weight to the driving equation with very little jump in HP, and it has the more problematic IMS bearing (single row 6204) and the M96.03 that is well documented to suffer from cylinder bore scoring. The M96.01 and .02 in the '99 model have shown to be less prone to the cylinder bore scoring problem and has the Dual Row IMS bearing that can handle about the same amount of load as the 6305 bearing found in the 997.
A big reason why the M96 engines in the '99 MY 996 cars didn't suffer from cylinder bore scoring like it's successors is because of the piston skirt material - i.e. ferrostan. Unlike the ferroprint that was used on the M96.03, ferrostan has shown to be more resistant to flaking off. When you look at the stages of bore scoring, most experts have noted that the first thing to start the downward spiral is the loss of piston skirt material. Once that happens its down hill all the way. If you're able to retain piston skirt material then you mitigate the chances of Al to Al contact that begins the galling on cylinder walls. Piston slap tick being the tell tale sign. Now, there are still chances of IMS bearing failure and even cylinder bore scoring on any MY99 car, but as Charles Navarro has noted, it's super rare to get a MY99 with bore scoring.
There are other things that make the MY99 special, even more the earlier built ones. This was BEFORE Porsche moved to just-in-time full robotics to assembly the cars. This process started after 2000 as noted in Porsche press releases. Some robotics (i.e. spot welding) were used on the early 996 models, but there were more hands assembling the cars unlike today. Robotics are very precise, but people will still appreciate hand-built cars vs a modern robotically assembled cars. Like synthetic lab engineered diamonds, while "perfect" theoretically, people will still value the imperfections of a naturally acquired diamond 1000X over. Engine builders like Jake Raby prefer the early MY99 models because frankly he feels that were much better built from the factory.
IMHO, while the MY99 has a good reputation, you still need to get the car and engine inspected, because it could have been poorly maintained. I would rather have a C4S that was well maintained than have a '99 Carrera that was never serviced and ragged out or left to sit in a garage for years untouched.
An few little things I like about the MY99 vs the 996 C4S:
1. Cable driven frunk/rear deck lid opener. One the biggest problems for Porsche 996 owners is getting locked out of a frunk. If you have a 996 with a electrically actuated lock, you know what I mean.
2. Pre-MOST audio system. This applies to all mk1 cars. I don't like the complications of the earlier forms of MOST transfer bus. Too many growing pains.
3. Porsche didn't use the soft-touch painted surfaces that peeled off. The MY99 cars painted surfaces are much more durable, but soft touch surfaces easily scratch off... one of the biggest eye sores for the later cars.
4. Leather seems to be better quality . The leather appears to be thicker and smells like heaven. Makes the endorphins do a happy dance!
5. I have a '99 C4 and it produces a very rigid controlled drive. It feels agile with no torque steer one would worry about with AWD cars.
Debbie Downer note: With the MY99 there is no cupholder nor a glove compartment. hahaha. No biggie. I could go on and on, but the main thing I would recommend is a getting a Porsche specialized shop inspect the car. It's not uncommon for people to fork out $10K in needed maintenance after the purchase. Good luck!
I went with the early car after much consideration. 33k miles amazing maintenance history with 38 dealer service records. I am very happy with the purchase. Also has perfect HRE wheels on it which look great. 👍
Drove the Car home which was 200 plus miles. Performed perfectly couldn�t be happier about my choice.
Agree with both weight figures
I've maintained a list of factory weights of every configuration trying to understand the huge driving difference between my 996.1/C2/6sp and 996.1/C4/Tip, so I have the numbers for all the cars.
The factory weight for a 996.1 C2/6sp/Coupe is 2901 lbs, and a C4S/6sp/Cab is 3411, so a 510 lb difference.
The C4S Coupe is 3240 -- so Cab adds 171.
Of course, many have noted that the factory weights don't always match actual car weights (which makes sense based upon owner mods, options, etc) -- but I believe the relative "deltas" between the factory weights of similarly optioned cars are accurate.
I think you made a great purchase! That wheel and color combination is perfect. I really like the look and wouldn�t change a thing!
congratulations and welcome to the club.
You do realize that the white car on the right of yours is even lighter than the narrow body 996!
Congrats -- no question you made the right decision from a driving perspective in my mind
Congrats! A well maintained narrow body 996 is a pleasure to own and drive. Wait till you put it thru its paces. You will have a smile from ear to ear.
I truly appreciate all the comments and advice you guys gave. I was really struggling to decide. A 911 has always been on car bucket list and now felt like a good time to go for it. I am very happy with the purchase. The C4S I was eyeing is a great car as well. My wife preferred it but once she laid eyes on the coupe in person she liked it much more than pics. Pictures don�t do these cars full justice just hard to capture them.
Definitely the right choice in my opinion. The same can often be even be said (at least a little bit) on the narrow body versus the 996 Turbo (a turbo coupe weighs 494 lbs more than your 996.1, and the Turbo Cab weighs 759 lbs more). The Turbo is massively faster, and the Mezger engine is a huge advantage, but when it comes to tossing the car around the corners, many that own both a 996 Turbo and a 996 narrow body say that the narrow body is more fun on back roads. This doesn't mean they think the 996 narrow body is better -- just that it has attributes that even Turbo owners appreciate. The best would be to own both -- Turbo for when you want to massive power, and narrow body 996 for having relaxed fun in the twisties.
I live way out in the burbs in Oswego. thanks for the offer as usual the Porsche guys are great people. As you can see in the thread I needed up with the early 996. Would be cool to meet up to compare cars though. My son is also in the market for one we plan to do some track days at autobahn in Joliet at same point when we have the cars ready.
I agree, My son is planning to pick one up soon as well also lives in the area. We plan to attend some track days around the area. Looks like your already in that game.
I cant tell 100% but does it have a sunroof ? it likes like it does not, if it doesn't huge bonus less weight up high....
also please let us know the spec, the label under the hood if its still there will have a list of numbers on it, that's your options,
interior pics also would be interesting, i think you have found a lovely car... and i think a good investment also...
Look under the driver side of the engine (plate on the sump) and get the engine serial number. That's important to know moving forward. It will be interesting to know if the engine was replaced under warranty or if you have the original factory engine.
True True... mine has a M96.1 A/T engine with no serial number.. so was replaced likely very early on in its life, the IMS was/is dual row and has been replaced on mine. The history of the early engine replacements was apparently due to oil leaking from the rear main seal (RMS) .. imagine paying an MSRP of 95k (my car) and having oil leak on your garage floor..."New Engine Sir? why certainly.."
There�s an Oak Park Cars and Coffee select Sundays, and while it�s open to all cars and makes, there�s always a few Porsches that show up. A guy down the street just picked up an 82 Turbo 930, last year we had a rare GT Touring 911, and some 996/997s as well.
I think the next one is June 16th (Fathers Day) 8am-10:30a, 1026 North Blvd, Oak Park, IL 60301-1103, United States. I cannot make this one though.
Next PCA track day i plan on attending is July 9th. Its at Blackhawk Farms Raceway in S. Beloit. It's a blast to go and hang. Your son would love it. They usually do a track tour at lunch if you want to take him out at highway speeds.
I'll look at the PCA event schedule and see what else is schedule for the summer.
