ims/rms should i?

so with all the talk about theres issues (ims/rms) is it worth getting them updated? i starterd thinking, if one of these should go out and ruin my engine my car is totaled... so how much did these updated cost you? i need some real feed back here, i love my car and i want to keep it running for as long as i can, i dont want to kill myself wondering when the car is gonna fail. thanks! Ryan

and yes i have searched and read up alot on this, my local indie shops say it doesnt happen a lot, but idk. id rather be safe then sorry

$1500-1900 ballpark including LN IMSR, updated RMS, oil change. Is your car 6spd? a little less labor involved in dropping the trans. have you inspected the AOS and clutch? that's the time to do it along with anything else while the car is up. ( fuel filter, coolant lines, trans flush, spark plugs, fister D's, headers, cats, X51 oil pan, brakes, suspension, etc... you see where this is heading??

ya i know, its a slippery slope. it is a 6speed. im more interested in just the ims, rms right now. clutch is still amazing

is it worth doing? i see a fluid reside on my engine, some where around the trans and engine area. but no oil ever on the ground

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If its sweating where the tranny and motor meet.... that is rms/ims issue.

where are you located

Here is an "estimate" for you from local Seattle installer of LM Bearing - $3500 +/- with clutch and RMS. The 2000 996 C4 Tip I just purchased in LA had the LM Bearing +RMS +heads R & R for valve refinished +water pump and all new hoses for a grand total of $8700. This good fellow wanted to insure the car would be reliable and thought he was going to keep it - so after purchase last year had all this done. The report from the Mechanic to me was that the valves did not need work and the IMS was like new. But this fellow was concerned and bet on this as an insurance policy. Then he decided he wanted a '73 911 RS... and sold the car to me. I feel like I got lucky in this deal.

I'm having the IMS, RMS, X51 Oil pan, and low temp thermostat put in next week. (~$3000) on my 2000 C2 Tip. Does it need it? I have no idea, but what is peace of mind worth to you? With my boat, if my mechanic says that something will likely last another year before needing replacement, I always say "Do it now". The cost of hauling and repair after the fact is always much greater, plus the boat/car can be out of service for an extended amount of time. You also reduce the chance of being stuck somewhere you don't want to be or at a time when you need to be somewhere else.

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please share the condition of the the original IMS bearing looks like.... pics would say 1k words.

I see IMS bearing jobs at a rate of 3+/week almost all the bearings are "good" I have said this many many times.... if you could tell when it is "bad" and replace it then... why bother. Trouble is there is no telling (no signs/warnings) that offer significant enough time to get it fixed once it goes bad. damn thing "could" last a million miles, or come apart next time you start the car....not something I was comfortable living with, but you have to make your own call and manage your own fear/stress BTW Jack's - there is a really cool looking 74' Carrera there this week... all original, stunning 37k miles... with the coolest factory graphics on it!! swing by and drool over that one. What 73' RS?? (this I gotta see)

ya, i just want to be safe then sorry. Im talking to a tech at my BMW dealer i work at, i think im gonna go through with the repairs to keep my mind at ease

btw i live in the portland area

Drive up to Seattle....

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Not sure if I'll be able to get pictures of the old IMS, but I've never had any problems saying 1k words

I have to put in my $.02. I can't tell you how much sleep I've lost over IMS issue and wanting to have the upgrade done to the car. So I took the car yesterday to Phil's auto to let him look at the car. Pat (tech) response to me he would do the upgrade but not untill I needed a repair worth taking the car apart for. (i.e. RMS or cluth replacement) It is an expensvie repair for a low probability problem. He also did say that milage was a factor I have less than 40K on the car. His advice was to drive the car more deal with the issue in a year or two. Estimated cost 2-2.5K for IMS, 3-4.5K cluth & flywheel (if needed).

Here is a pic of my IMS that I pulled and replaced with LN-IMS. It looked good but shows a little oil on the seal. I had ~ 24k miles when replaced. Best upgrade I ever did. I wouldn't wait for this upgrade. What is the X51 oil pan benefit besides more oil? iPhone4 Picture:

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If peace of mind is so important for you that you are willing to throw $3,000 for something you do not even know is needed why wouldn't you spend even less then $3,000 and purchase 4 year powertrain warranty which would cover ALL engine and transmission issues up to and including brand new units? Seems like much better deal, dont you think? It gives you a real peace of mind in comparison.

How bout dem Packers! Favre Sucks!

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It's more like $3,000 for 1 or 2 years and I've not found anyone who will cover my MY2000 996 yet. I tried the main three so far. If you go that route, you'll be right back in the same position you were in a year or two earlier, and will have to shell out another 3 grand for the upgrade or find another warranty (rinse, repeat). A warranty is nice to have too. I have insurance on my home, but I still replaced the furnace when I lost faith in its safety.

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+1 cant stand that ball baby! There is more to football than Farve!!!!

sure

Now I am not a mechanic and I don't have to make my living that way but I just don't get these prices for a LN Bearing upgrade. I know that I can drop the engine and trans in my driveway in about 4 hours, another 4 to put it back in. In looking at the bill from my indy for a clutch and RMS he did for me in 08 (EasyCare paid for the labor for the RMS) he charged 7 hrs. for the R&R of the trans and Flywheel and the RMS replacement. At his new rate of $119 that is now $833, add another hour for the IMS ( which is more than it is supposed to take) and this is $952 in labor. The dual row bearing is $595, tool is $70, add another $100 for the flywheel bolts and fluids and we are about $1,800. So why so many of the prices I am seeing here so much more? And one has the clutch adding $1,500 to $2,000 for a clutch on top of this. If the trans is out and the flywheel is off, it should be the cost of the clutch parts only. I just don't get it. I know that I will probably be doing the upgrade myself in the near future. I only regret that I did not do it last year when I had the engine out to fix the intermix I had. Unfortunately a the time the tool was not perfected and I was not sure that the fix I was doing would be successful and did not want to spend an extra $700 if it did not work.

Doug, I am with you. People are overcharging for this work because of the engine replacement alternative. There are a lot of shops taking advantage of this.

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OK in Seattle area, shop rate is $140 so your 7 hours plus an hour for the IMS (8 hours) is $1120 parts $595/70/100 = $765 ALL SHOPS quote the job with a replacement flywheel and full clutch kit (lets say $950 and $450) = $1400 $3285 - tax in my area is 10% - $328 $3613 AND my indy includes a slave cylinder and hose in the bid (~$250 in parts +$25 tax) they claim they see a lot of bad hoses and/or leaking/bad slaves... $3888 you are then "prepped" - the great news is that NOT all cars need a clutch or flywheel or slave or hose.... that means when you arrive to pay.... you smile because it was less than you had planned. From a liability side, the shop does not want you to get an IMS upgrade and 3 months later come back for a clutch (ect) so there are no car leaving that are not in "very good" condition. - you can imagine that your customers will not be happy coming back from this job... and being told you have to take it apart again. I am not advocating or condoning (spelling) this, I am just explaining the possition of any reputable shop - AGREE????

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If your car is young enough to qualify for a warranty from a reasonably reputable company, I think it is something to consider. Despite my bad luck in this department, other things could go wrong. My research so far indicates the IMS failures are clustered in the lower mileages. But it is incredibly hard to find reliable information (with enough data points). I was told the stress on the cam-chain system is highest at idle, which might play into the lightly driven / daily driver theory. I was also told by several rebuilders that 80% of blown motors are due to some version of IMS as the root cause. But this is difficult to verify. My current theory runs a little counter - buy a warranty and replace the IMS when you do your clutch but not earlier. That way you will have a newer IMS when you get to the point you can't get a warranty. In the end you can't go replacing every component in the car. Just enjoy driving it and put it out your mind.

Ed - Not that I am disagreeing with you but there are a lot of variables in this. The highest rate for a dealer around here that I know of is $159/hr. The indy that I use is $119 (I have referred many other owners to them and just yesterday I got a note of thanks from a new owner for the referral, very satisfied). And we all know that they make profit on the list price of the clutch etc. that you list (and they have to make a profit to stray in business, and deserve one). But when you add all the other work for things that might happen is starts to be a slippery slope. I know the challenges that shops face with the "next part down the line." Replace the water pump and the idler pulley goes bad, etc. etc. But where does this stop? Kind of a doomsday scenario with the clutch, flywheel, slave cylinder. What about the chains, tensioners, pads, etc. etc. What the heck, lets just put in the new engine and get it done with (although this would not have the LN bearing unless ii is a Flat6 engine). What I was focusing on was the cost of the bearing upgrade. If one wants to address other wear and tear items, all power to them, but where does the list end. Another way to look at it is if you are doing the clutch, etc. for a cost of $3,000+ then the bearing is only $665, not a bad deal in my opinion. On this basis anyone who does not do it when the clutch is done is being penny wise and pound foolish. Just another perspective.

I just had the IMS/RMS done on my 986, but I believe the price was the same for the 996. Mine was done at an independent shop (Flintworks) for $1500. A car with a Tip is more, however. It only made sense for me to do this in combination with a clutch/flywheel and some other stuff (replace CV boots). I bought an aftermarket clutch/flywheel (aluminum LWFW) which were replaced with no extra labor charge. The IMS bearing that came out appeared to be fine, but I typically change my oil every 5K or less and use oils "better" than Mobil 1. What I have observed on the various forums is that the IMS bearing failure is by far the most common failure of the M96 engine, albeit not super common. As a result, there is a lot of fear about being one of the unlucky few. My indy mechanic used to work at several Porsche dealerships and also said the IMS is by far the most common failure. The next being very early M96 engines with D-chunked cylinders or slipped sleeves. For me, the bottom line on the IMS bearing R/R was that it was probably a better return than an aftermarket warranty, especially if you are combining it with some other service. I do feel the hysteria around this failure is unwarranted. Of the 6 IMS bearing replacements that I know of (statistically unbiased) 1st or 2nd hand (not online), all have had IMS bearings that appeared to be good. On the other hand, I do know one online "friend" that had his engine go due to IMS.

I have been thinking about the IMS upgrade. My issue is that the RMS was replaced a long time ago by the previous owner (LiveNupe) and has never leaked out. Also the clutch only has 15k-20k miles on it. Being that those items are all good, I just cannot see spending $2k- $3k to upgrade the IMS. Am I on the right path, or would you guys do something else?

I believe you are on the right path.

The actual rate of failure on the IMS is statistically low.... As many of you have stated it is a "Feel Good" repair that lowers your stress levels. All too many shops are charging a premium on drivers fears. My father is an old school racer/mechanic and always believed that "If it's not broken then don't fix it". While this is not always the best path (we have had many debates over the years about it) I must agree with him on the IMS issues. NOW, if you are already in there working on a clutch... (this is where father/son differ) THEN do both RMS/IMS... As this is a "Get it while you are there". Just the thoughts of another voice

The problem is that we don't know the actual failure rate on the IMS, nor the cause, just anecdotal evidence. If we had better data, the choice would be easier to make. If an IMS upgrade costs 2k and the cost of an engine replacement is 25k, the break even point would be at a failure rate of 8%. I'm guessing that the failure rate is significantly less than that, but without accurate data all we can do is speculate. For me, spending 2 or 3 grand on the car is not a big deal. Spending 25 grand would be another story.

Can anyone comment on whether an IMS or RMS failure always equals a blown engine? If you see a pool of oil or if the oil light comes on and you stop the engine immediately, you'll probably be all right. Making sense?

Big difference between an RMS and an IMS problem. The RMS (rear main seal) can leak and not really cause any damage. There can be IMS (intermediate shaft) flange leaks, that don't really cause damage. But most of the discussion of IMS problems is not about the flange leaking, but about the bearing going bad which can badly damage or destroy the engine. Don't confuse the two.

Also check the price. The $2K to $3K being thrown around probably includes the clutch/flywheel. Mine was $1500 for the IMS bearing and RMS alone. As mentioned, I combined things to include a new clutch/flywheel and CV boots.

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Bad idea; replacing any part of an engine with non-Porsche approved aftermarket part will give the warranty company a chance to legitimately deny a claim. Besides, you already have a warranty so why go to an expense of replacing the part you do not even know you need? After all they took over the risk of you engine failure, didn't they? Your last sentence makes a LOT OF SENSE, even more if you DO have a warranty of course. Four years from now when my current warranty expires and my 2002 car will not be eligible for a service contract extension i will sadly sell it and buy a newer one.

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For my 2000 C2 Tip $3k includes IMS, RMS, X51 Oil pan, and low temp thermostat. The IMS alone would have been ~$2k. You saved on some of the labor cost because it was common to several of the replacements. My figures include sales tax (8.5%)

No one ever will. Between the actual sales numbers being estimated to the fact that no one knows how many failed under warranty and how many failed and were misdiagnosed its impossible to come up with any sort of number.

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I think you are on the right path with some modifications. My RMS seal was replaced along with the clutch/pressure plate/throwout bearing just 5k miles ago! Nothing it leaking and the tech at the dealer said that the IMS was dry. I have a CPO warranty for the next 6 months so I am not going to do anything until then. What I would do in your case (i intend to do this as well), during your next oil change, do as the LN folks say in the Excellence articles and cut the ends off the filter and check for metal. ANd then spend $25 and have the oil analyzed by a place like blackstone labs. If you don't change your own oil, ask your indie/dealer to save the filter and a small sample of oil for you. Those 2 items will give you further piece of mind that all is well with your engine. My 996 passed 39,000 miles on the way into work today. Uh oh...... I'm in the zone where the RMS goblins comes out, jack up my car, remove the trans and shoot evil curses at my IMS bearing. And it's not even halloween yet.

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I was not clear in mypost, we are saying the same thing. I was trying to say do _not_ replace the IMS until near the end of your warranty, if you can line it up with a clutch that would be ideal if fate allows... for the same reasons you mention the warranty co might disallow your claim.

I just find this such an odd controversy. Updating components in a vehicle you plan to keep for a long time is a perfectly valid, commonplace practice. From farm tractors to fighter jets, it's part of owning a machine you care about, however you might feel about the service life of one or another of them. Do, don't, it's a personal choice. But doing it isn't stupid. It's ironic that people are promoting extended warranties as the fix. Here's a product which by design benefits a tiny minority of customers and is a waste of money for the vast majority. That's exactly what you're accusing the IMS bearing upgrade of being, except the insurance company is specifically counting on the waste of money to make a buck. I'd like to see a show of hands of Porsche owners who absolutely never, ever spend discretionary money on parts that are even the tiniest bit overengineered.

Hi folks, this is my first post although i have been using this site and rentech religously for the past 8 months! Decided it was time to get my dream car at the start of the year and by Feb i had pulled off enough bank jobs to make it a reality (only kidding about the bank jobs!!). Found my perfect car, a 2002 year C4 3.6 facelift model with 56000 miles and full porsche service history and plenty of invoices to prove all was good. Booked it into porsche for an anual inspection (only covered 5000 miles since its major service a year before) and all that was noted was leaking RMS and front brake discs corroded on the inside. I am in the process of looking for someone in the UK to do the seal and also the IMS bearing and the difference of opinion (and price) of the specalists is amazing! First one will do RMS and IMS LN engineering upgrade for 1450 pounds plus vat (17.5%), second one will do the same job for 1200 pounds plus VAT, third one will do the same job but uses the same bearing as the origionlal spec but removes the seals and upgrades the standard cap seal and charges 850 plus VAT and the last one is offering to do the RMS and check on the IMS bearing and replace the cap seal for 400 including VAT, the latter one stating that he reccomends not changing the bearing unless it is absoulutely neccecary as to remove the old one puts stress on the engine casing etc etc. I am totally lost with what option to go for as between the first option and the last there is 1000 pounds of a difference! I am also waiting back on the last person to tell me what will happen if he finds out that when he checks the bearing it dooes in fact require replacement.

Okay, call me crazy. <controversy-proof suit=ON> Just had my clutch done at my local indy with 53K miles on my '99 C2. The AOS was leaking, so I had that replaced too. I chose NOT to do the IMS or RMS. RMS wasn't leaking. I SERIOUSLY debated doing the IMS bearing, but given the unknown and probably low failure rate, the expense, and the unknown time I may own the car, I opted not to do it. The simple philosophy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" prevailed. <knocks wood> I think replacing the bearing is valid choice as an upgrade to reliability, but I decided I could live with the low risk. Not loosing sleep over it. <knocks wood repeatedly>

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Ditto....

04 c2, 33,000 miles two weeks into ownership noticed couple oil drops on garage floor. Well aware of IMS/RMS issues. LN engineering's website listed an "authorized shop" close to home. Made appointment. RMS leaking like a "siv". IMS was fine. RMS replaced. LN E IMS retrofit kit installed. Clutch, flywheel had plenty of miles left. Total cost with oil/filter, cabin filter, air filter. $1,800. Peace of mind, priceless.

If I ever get a 996 (again) or a 997, the first thing I'm doing is the IMS bearing. Sealed bearings IMO do not belong in an engine......