Next project 160F thermo mod

Again From LNE I also bought the 160F thermostate mod. It appears to be a simple mod. They do not just send you a thermostate you get the whole housing. It APPEARS, I just have to replace the housing on the bottom rear drivers side of the engine. This seems like less that a two hour job. Does anyone know if their is any snakes in the wood pile that are going to bite me and take this seemingly 2 hour job and make it a 10 hour job? Thanks Kyle Why am I doing the mod? It is the therory of LNE that they head crack issues may be coming from the engine running to hot. The comment that got me hooked was "almost every one I have seen with a cracked head also had visable hot spots on the heat." But were the hot spots created after the head cracked? Either way. Im going to again trust the judgment of someone who does know more than me about the car at this time. My knowledge is still lacking to make my own choices abotu my mods.

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The only snake you'll find is that it does not lower your coolant temperatures. Other than that. it's a great way to free yourself from cash that is burning a whole in your wallet.

More scraped knuckles is all you should be facing.

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well this sounds like an interesting start point... why do you say that? - IIRC there was a big thread on removing the t-stat completely as a means of lowering the temp and it went round and round.... For me I jumper wired the high fan cycle to the low speed fan relay and when my temp hits the low speed setting my fans kick into high (there was a reason I opted for this) but at some point the cooling system even with no t-stat saturates and the heat displacement of the water cannot remove any more heat (thus fans are installed on our cars) How does this agree/disagree with your statement

Kyle, you have to drop the engine and transmission to do that change! NO, not really! Just kidding! I know you have just "been there, done that!"

There are consequences to every action. Modern engines are tuned to run at a certain temperature range. A lower temp thermostat will increase the time it takes for an engine to reach that temperature range; and it may affect emissions and power output as well. If your car spends a great deal of time at the track, then I would entertain a lower temp thermostat. Personally, I would try simpler stuff first, like a different coolant/water ratio (40/60 coolant/water...?). I'd also try Redline Water Wetter; if you do the research on this product, it will not lower engine temps unless your engine already has a cooling impediment. Water Wetter is a surfactant that removes (for lack of better term) localized hot pockets of steam. ///Michael

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Not sure your logic. but we are going to find out. The life of a modern day cowboy. I can live with that. Thanks looking forward to this answer I shed a small tear when I read this Not a track car. Just trying to get it to 200K with out the self destruct mech kicking in. Choice has already been made to do the mod after my own research as well as teh research of the product manufactuer. I think they are on to something.

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So, just how cool do you think this new thermostat will keep your engine? Do you know what the coolant temperature is stock? Do you know what it is without a thermostat? The weakess link in the cooling system is the radiators being fully covered by the A/C condensors. Increasing airflow past the raditators is the only way you will subastantially reduce temperatures and maintain lower temps. Without more airflow, even running without a thermostat will only marginally reduce temps, but only at speed. Please notice that there is no indication as to what this lower thermostat will reduce temps to. I have already tested it and it does nothing. Beware VOODOO.

Kyle, There are some very strong opinions on this mod in RL. I assume that you are back on the road? Please document your running temps before and after the mod as a datapoint for the rest of RL. BTW What is the best oil to run in my 996?

Optimum fuel burn from what I read is at 180 F of the engine. The variables of how much heat from compression and exposure to intake temperatures I don't know. With all the fuel additives always coming out I gotta wonder if there is ever a norm for fuel.

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I will and report back. I am actually very courious myself at this point with the opinions brought up here. I will run it a few hundred miles yet with the stock so I can get used to it. That way I can give good feedback. ?????

Kyle, you have a MK1? If so, you can use the climate control hack to monitor engine temps (and other temps) really well.

You'll find that though the low temp unit starts to open at 160F, it is fully open at around 176F. In my vehicles this has kept the coolant temps very close to 180F.

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Without other mods to the stock cooling system, no 996 or 997 will come close to maintaining 180F engine temperatures with any kind of load on the engine during normal driving or at idle, even in freezing climates. You might want to recalibrate your thermometer and check again.

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I'll simplify and say for more bang for your buck and fuel if the engine is running at 180 F you get a better bang/combustion. Engine power is derived from combustion. Combustion as you know in a too cold or too hot engine sucks. 180 as the ideal/optimum fuel combustion temperature?

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We will see. I dont know. I will report back for sure. Right now I run about 3/16" above 180 on the dash gauge. I was simply saying I had no idea. Not being a smart *** to your reply

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Actually, the ideal/optimum fuel combustion temperature is considerably higher than 180F and mixture temperature is effected by compression more than by marginally different coolant temperature.

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Don't go by the gauge. With gauge needle in the middle of the "0" in 180, your coolant temperature is well above 200F.

so are you saying that my bench mark on my needle regardless if the reading of temp is accurate, is not going to drop a little if my coolent temp runs lower? it has no bearing on the tempature? How odd? Its all show and no go? So if my car runs hotter than normal this gauage will not "go up". So I know "normal" for my car is "a little above 180", If it pegs to the right. Just ignore it?

Now, THAT was "smart ***"...... Well deserved though!

There is a diagnostic digital temp built into the early version hvac controls - see the thread marked things you didn't know abou the 996 at the top of the forum for access and descriptions

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No, but I was making the point that you do not have a clue as to what your coolant temperature is at any given time. So, how to you expect to have any meaningful comparison? Furthermore, the targeted coolant temperature for the computer is 194F - 203F and many engine codes depend on it acheiving that temperature.

Yes I was being an ***. 1999p911 seems to be taking it like a champ. We're going to get along just fine. I knew what you meant I was being an ***. But every dick comment does have some truth.... The gauge will tell me if the car is running cooler than normal. Pease.. Ill report back after the mod

do 1999p911 fan mod...it works GREAT on the street and its ok for the track as well.... but I think your best mod for the track is the 3rd radiator *and* the fan mods... the other thing that seems to work well is removing the belly pans to allow increased cooling from the underside...

What exactly is the 160 thermostat sold as to help? I'd think it might be good for negative degree areas where engines have a tough time getting up to temp. I've heard some guys in super cold areas of Alaska don't bother with blocking off the radiator and just run their engines drained of coolant. I have a hard time believing that one.

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I beg to differ.. I've been gathering the data since July with a Race-Technology DL-2 in two different M96 powered vehicles off an on. I have used the stock sensor and a calibrated GM sensor in two different locations in my 996 in applications from street to a DE at Road Atlanta and Land Speed Time Trials at Maxton NC where my Wife came within .5 MPH from a class record. Hell I even have data gathered with one of the radiators taped up! (good for 3MPH!)

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Well, regardless of what you claim, your thermostat will NOT maintain close to 180F on any stock 996. It won't even maintain 190F or 200F at all times.. I know that deception is sometimes needed to sell a product, but your deception is among the worse I have seen. It's too bad that the board does not have a way of disproving false claims before they allow venders to market their snake oil.

Boy did this thread turn into a can of worms. I was told the they feel the head failures may be from hot spots on the head. I am not going to track the car. I am trying to prevent the 996 from self destruct mode. Im not looking to go faster. I am trying to prevent a repair down the line. Not get more power. Again, Like the IMS bearing I am big boy and had to make my own conclusion if this update was feasable. I feel it is. No matter what mod you do to the car, No matter what screw you turn. Their is ALWAYS someone telling you, you are going to **** up your car... You learn to stay on track with what you have been told and seen and go from there. Like i said in my other thead.... Its nothing 14 grand won't fix.

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ya think?

Lets just see what Shark Attack's results are after he does the Lo Temp T stat install. Of all the units we have provided the only person that has stated they didn't see any gains was 1999Porsche911, oh well what would life be without a little drama. I am simply stating what I have seen in my personal cars over the past 7 months, the same thing that most everyone else here does, excuse me for being a vendor and enthusiast.

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So, as you have been trying to make us believe with your deceptive statements, are you willing to state clearly that "installing the 160F thermostat on an otherwise stock 996 will maintain coolant temperatures around 180F"? If so, please define "around". If around is within 25F of 180, then it may be a valid claim. The fact is, just as LN states, this thermostat, just like the stock thermostat, works best with other mods, such as running the fans. What they do not state, is that running the fans wiith the stock thermostat will rpoduce the same results as will running the fans with your thermostat....and, it FREE. So to contnue to deceive members here and elsewhere that your thermostat will somehow produce results which are in conflict with the laws of physics is nothing short of bull****. Let the back pedalling begin. BTW: NO ONE here, but you, has ever stated that the thermostat maintains coolant temperatures aound 180F.

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Im not defending anyone here. But this is the comment you started with and the comment you ended with. Ok, I bought a porshe, I am not going to start crying about $$ now. You seem to be stuck on the $$ aspect of it. Im willing to try it even though its not FREE. Free usually SUCKS

I have used 160 degree t-stats for many years on different cars, if the cooling system is capable it will keep the car that temp or close to it. Really it all depends on the ambient temp. So the Porsche cooling system is marginal since some models have or people add third radiators. The one thing that has not been brought up is that a 160 will give you constant flow because it will always be open. While the stock t-stat will be opening and closing to keep the car at that temp. So if steam pockets are a problem then the full flow of the 160 should help that. but that is just theory.

I agree with the above. Also, 160 degree is the point at which the thermostat opens, NOT at what temp the coolant remains. So yes, the coolant gauge may read higher than 160, but the gauge reading isn't that accurate anyway. This mod is one of those things that may work, but it's not going to hurt. I have a Mustang with about 475-500 hp, it has a 160 thermostat.......but I don't think that where the HP is from, it combined with a huge aluminum radiator, a properly programmed electric fan, and a high flow water pump sure help to keep it cool though. On a side note, my car has this thermostat installed, it runs fine.

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Regardless of whether it is free or not, you have already been told it does not work so why would you even go through the effort. Even LN Engineering makes absolutely NO CLAIM that it will reduce your coolant temperatures You're being had. http://www.lnengineering.com/lowtemp...hermostat.html

Manufacturers of aircraft and cars generally set gauges up to be at the 4 main clock positions of 12, 3, 6 and 9 oclock. Modern aircraft always use the standard. So when you see your temp sitting at 12 oclock don't think it is above standard for the running temp of the car. The trick is for making scans easy to see if anything is out of specs and it works. Pilots not keeping a good scan going is what gets them behind the power curve on knowing whats going on. Now the guy who designed the 996 steering wheel is a different thing.......

I'll sum it up by stating that every engine that I produce includes the 160F thermostat. If the unit didn't work or was detrimental to the engine I'd not install it. No complaints have been received about the performance of the units that we've sold, and we have them in service on five continents.

This is my question: How many 996 owners change the coolant every 2 years? I do it , and I can say that it's very important. The coolant liquid wears and I can't understand why Porsche never changes it...

Get a third radiator. That will increase the flow and reduce temps because the center radiator has no AC evaporator in front of it.

No one here mentioned cleaning your radiators first to improve airflow. This is a must as I saw my temp needle move from the right of the "O" to "8" after cleaning at speed. Idling will still creep the needle to "O."

.... or do what Phil did. Push the car out of the garage to the driveway, get in the car and make verbal VROOOM VROOOM noises. The engine in his C4S never over heated! Sorry, but I hadn't had the opportunity to pick on Phil lately, so I couldn't pass up the chance to do so.

Did you install the 160 degree thermostat yet? I am curious about the results.

No, I have a slight collant leak on a hose that comes off the water pump. I have to get a new hose. Then I have to get new coolant. I think I shoudl get to it this week.

OK, it will be interesting to see the data since I am thinking about the thermostat change as well. That genuine Porsche coolant isn't cheap. I just ordered it and it's $36/gal. It better not be 50/50.

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not really sure why we have to use the porsche stuff?

The OEM stuff isn't 50/50 (unless it changed). Considering many of us wish to keep our M96s running as trouble-free as possible for as long as possible, I'll repeat what others have said about spending a little more as being "cheap insurance", just like more frequent oil changes. Besides, it's not like you have to flush & fill your coolant annually. I would imagine any other brand that's 100% compatible with aluminum engines may be ok. I figure why take the chance that it's not, when I don't have to buy coolant on a regular basis?

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You can use VW stuff too - it's (pink) G12 also.

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I didnt realize it was an aluminum thing. The 928 engine is all aluminum why isnt this on the 928 boards?

Good question Kyle...I don't remember exactly what is "different" about G12 coolant, but i thought it had something to do with aluminum engine components.

Probably more than you ever wanted to know about coolants: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=613263 BTW, Streather's 996 book says "The G12 coolant used by PAG is is Elf Glaceelf supra Antifreeze" then he goes on to warn that texaco DEX-COOL may be suitable equivalent, but use at your own risk. I don't like being gamed by Porsche's marketing people, who would like you to believe their coolant is proprietary, when they have an OEM supplier package it up and slap a Porsche label on it, and then charge you a 50% premium. But The cost differential is probably about $30 for the whole coolant R&R procedure.

I want to see the results from the install. Hurry up!

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Ferd and I did the fan mod and I have been monitoring the coolant temp. The coolant temp runs around 91 to 96 degrees C from the middle of "180" to the left half of the "0". That work out to be 195.8 to 204.8 degrees F. I switched on the fan at 204.8 degrees F and it took approximately 3-4 minutes to drop down to 195 F. This was during idle in 65 degrees weather yesterday.

ok i'm going to do this next weekend and will report temps from obd port (fan mod, not sure why anyone needs the lower t stat)

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+1 I dont get that either... I have tried to understand but keep going back to: if the fans turn on at the same temp regardless of the t-stat, and your fans are on...the engine is at the same temp.....

Unless someone can program the fans to come on at a lower temperature, the t stat is useless. Fan mod is great.

+1000000!! so why cant that be done? is it programming or some sort of a thermal mechanical switch? either way, why couldnt it be done (I am not electrically savvy)

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I have a pyrometer - where should I aim it to get the best indication of true tempatures after the car has warmed up? Would the over flow bottle be a good enough spot?

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no how about the waterpump outlet/inlet ? or other metal "hose" that is not a heatsink to the motor????

I can report back on this now with 5000 miles under my belt and 2500 of them with the mod. The car runs cooler while at speed. However in traffic, its the same.

Ran the car out to dinner with the wife tonight. stop and go traffic during rush hour for 30 minutes. turned the fan on manually when coolant temp hit 90 C outside temp was around 71 F. Shifting between second gear and third gear all the way, the coolant temp never went above 93 C. On the way home, no traffic and car ran at 88 C highway speeds. Got to the parking garage with about 5 minutes local driving and parked with car idling. Coolant temp went up to 103 C from 93C in about a minute even with the fan on before it started to cool back down. I shut the car off with the temp at 92 C. It took about 4-5 minutes. It is amazing how quickly our cars' coolant temp warms up when not moving. The fan keeps it in check.

I've changed my mind on the fan mod. If I was going to do anything to my cooling system, that would probably be it. I have a pair of brand new rads in my car, so one could argue that the system is working 'as designed' at the moment. I find the car cools down very effectively when it's in motion, and it doesn't take much or long. Sitting in traffic is where the problem is... it really does seem to be all about moving air (versus a thermostat or the amount of rad surface area). Hacking into the temp gage in the ECU while you drive (it's more sensitive, if not more accurate than the dash gage), you see it very clearly. It's airflow.

This is one of my favorite mods. Ferd installed the third radiator in his car a few years ago and wanted to do the fan mod. Thankfully, he is an electrical engineer and full of knowledge. I was able to learn a little about the car's electronics from him. The fan mod is not an expensive one because I bought two switches, one for the front fans and the other for the engine compartment fan, from Radioshack for around $12. Ferd had some wires plus soldering tools available. It takes some electrical knowledge and reading the 996 electrical blueprint to figure this out.