996 C4S and Turbo - Where is the Market Heading?

I�ve been in the hunt for a wide-body 996, manual transmission, clean documentation, mid-mileage, major engine work sorted or priced in. What are folks observing on supply and price movement for C4S and Turbos? And the premium for Turbos over a comparable C4S? It seems the run-up in prices the last few years has attenuated, but supply is tighter, particularly for a clean C4S, and I�m seeing dealers snap up private listings and marketing for higher asking prices than what the private seller was expecting. Also seeing those dealer offerings with huge asking prices sitting on the lot for longer, which makes me wonder if we�re actually headed toward a softer market. In this market it seems more sensible to buy a Turbo with slightly more mileage (60-90k) or look at a 997.1 C2S. Would love to hear perspectives - where�s this market heading?

To specify, I�m excluding cabs from that commentary. Referring to manual coupes only.

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Personally wouldn't make much of blue chip examples sitting online right now. It's a mid-term year, capital markets aren't sure what they want to do with everything going on at the moment. I know of a beautiful speed yellow 4S with a desirable option list that sold right away on consignment with a known Porsche specialist. Higher miles didn't stop it from selling for big money. It might just be taking longer for some cars to find homes. It's already June, if you can find a car that meets your criteria in the winter you could take advantage of seasonality. There are a few threads on the general 996 market, but IMO I wouldn't expect meaningfully lower prices on any 996 coupe from here. As you already said, there's limited supply of great cars, and the great cars are the ones that are worth sinking refreshing $$ into to make perfect. Regarding dealership/auction pricing, it's tough to say what will come of them allegedly controlling and inflating the premium 996 market. That phenomenon extends past 996 cars, think Ford GTs, 918s, NA Ferraris, even Gallardos that were softer not all that long ago are up. That said, reasons for honest upward pricing in past years are only getting stronger. The case for something exhilarating is made easy when all new enthusiast cars are 'large, complex, dull and screen operated.' Even E30s and Miatas that could be picked up for next to nothing reflect this now. The 996 marketplace is evolving to now price in cars with good m96-specific maintenance and not just those with special option lists or pretty photos. I would expect driver quality cars that present decently to continue benefiting from all of this. Last thing I would consider is the entry price for a new 911 is now $135,000 and climbing. Even without the above^, new 911 pricing alone would put more pressure on modern classics like the 996 that start every time and have come of age. Those are my thoughts, and time will probably prove I'm so so wrong 😄

The c4s market seems to be more or less flat tbh. As they get older the sentiment on bore scoring gets worse from a market confidence point of view. the best up cars are losing value , the lower miles maintained cars are holding value, nothing is increasing in value. I see the turbo market exploding now. After being soft for a very long time, the sudden increase in market value has meant the mint cars that have been in hiding out there are hitting the market to take advantage of the increased value. The problem is, paying 80-150 for a 20 year old car starts to make zero sense given a newer model ( non turbo) with better performance and reliability is the same price or cheaper. those mint 996 turbos that are asking mountains of money are going to sit unsold I think. The owners missed out on enjoying them new and they will never be collectible given the sheer number of them that were produced and the performance lag between it and even the base models of today. Nobody s going to spend $150k on a museum piece of a car with no miles and then actually drive it. It will depreciate very quickly with any use as the premium exists only in its mint state. This leaves the drivers cars being the sweet spot. Miles do not really mean anything on a 20 year old car that you plan on driving. You are going to have to replace things anyway regardless of miles at 20+ years old. Buy a car with some miles on it knowing it�s gonna need $10-20k in sturdying up. If your budget is already $150-100k. Just buy a new car.

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While you're not wrong, you may be missing what people are looking for when they look at cars from the 2000's decade. For me personally, a new 911 and 2005 911 are on two entirely different decision vectors.

Driver grade 996 Turbos are mid 50's and trending up. Three years ago these were mid 20's. I would not say that a worldwide production of about 7000 manual coupes is an especially large number of vehicles.

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Agree completely. Folks throw out big production numbers for the 996, but fail to realize that there are a heck of alot more 997s, 991s and 992s that were manufactured and sold. To put it another way. Each new model outsold the previous model in volume. If one was to use scarcity (production volume) as a factor, the 996 accross all models checks all the boxes versus 997 991, and 992.

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20% is not a heck of a lot. 996 vs 993 is like 3x the production, that's notable. I would never buy any C4S if a turbo was in the budget. If you are cross shopping the two I would argue more that you don't really know what you want? Go drive them and see.

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If you are going to make a scarcity argument. You can confidently say the 964 is more scarce than the 993, which is more scarce than the 996, which is more scarce than the 997, and so on. Considering that the production of 992s is multiplying like two bunnies in heat, the trade would be to... go long the 996 and short the 992. Production Numbers 964 63,762 993 68,881 996 175,263 997 213,004 991 233,540 992 280,000+

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Marginal increases in production of later cars will never make an undesirable model more desirable.

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You my friend should not be on the 996 forum.

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It's a strange thing to see, people paying more for these old cars. It's even affecting the Ferrari world. This foolish buyer clearly didn't do his homework on how much faster a new 296 GTB is and way overpaid for a 'maranello'. Thing doesn't even have paddle shifters, has to be shifted with that metal stick thing.

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lmfao mid 20s�or mid 50s for that matter. Some top tier analysis here 😂

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996 is the least desirable 911 (general opinion, certainly not my own -- I love my car). This is just the reality of things. Value trap. Actual buyers don't care. Even if you adjust for inflation I don't think 992 will ever become as cheap as 996.

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Reality is changing. What was once new (water-cooled) and different (headlights) becomes unique and desirable. Ask any 912 or 964 owner. Just the reality of things.

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992 prices will depreciate faster than Bitcoin on a "Risk-Off" day as they come off of warranty and the market compensates for the service costs to keep the techno boxes running. Just the reality of the car market and the reality of things.

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Just like m96.0x cars, but newer? I doubt it will be that bad but we will see. Are they that awful to work on?

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Agreed. I had a 2007 BMW Z4M Coupe for several years. Fantastic engine, race car chassis stiffness, intensely rewarding driving experience. Insanely low production numbers. Nobody cares. But the faithful keep saying their day is coming... ...it ain't. In another 20 years 996's will be a lot more valuable. Okay. They will also still have that cringe worthy interior. And they will still be at the lower end of 911 valuations.

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In answer to your question, you should drive all the 996 and 997 models you can and research not only purchase price ranges, but what it cost to keep them running 1. You will notice that a 996 (C4S, C2, Turbo) looks, feels and handles differently. You will notice the same for the 997 (C4S,C2S,C2,Turbo) as well. 2. You will also notice that asking prices differ, and out of pocket service costs will vary by the condition and history of the car. So dont be suprised if you buy a 996 or 997 for what you believe is a good price and then you realize you need to put $30k into it to bullet proof the engine, and refresh the suspension, exhaust, exterior and interior. 3. What you just saw in the previous posts was an exchange of personal opinions on whether a few folks like or dislike the exterior or interior styling of a 996 versus other models. Opinions dont matter except yours. For every guy like me who is a 996 enthusiast that loves the 996.2 headlights, exterior and interior styling, there is another guy that will complain about the 996 and should own another model that is more to their liking. So get the one you want.

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I wouldn�t call the interior of my �99 �cringe worthy�. Unique is a better description, haha. Very late 90s early 00s. Agree that the 996 ( excluding the Turbo and GT variants) will continue to be at the lower end of 911s in terms of value. I�ll go as far to say the 996 will always be the cheapest entry point for 911 ownership. But regardless, it�s still a 911. You Tube

As many of us always say here on Rennlist, you dont buy a Porsche because you are looking to make money. You buy a Porsche because you want a "specific" driving experience, and it will cost you boatloads of money to keep it running in top form. Regarding the interior, I like the 996 interior better than the 997. Imho, it has aged better and its pretty easy to upgrade. Regarding future prices of the 996, 997, 991, 992, etc; non of us have any clue as to where they will settle in 10-20 years. But one of the huge psychological issues with human beings is that we are wired for "the grass is always greener" mindset. I will keep my 996 for another 23 years because i like it better than the 997, 991 and 992. But I have driven them all on the track and just keep coming back to the 996 due to the incredible driving experience that is visceral, analog and engaging. A true drivers car. But if I wanted to drive a digital luxury sedan, i would get a 991 or 992.

IMO a leather package 996 interior is better than a 997. Need the natural leather seat option or GT3 buckets though. Standard seat leather is junk. 997 interior is dated in a different, worse way than 996. Dialpad on the dash, bad infotainment. No thank you.

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Agreed!

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Avoid low mileage 996's. Those have sat long enough where the engine is more problematic even if the oil is changed often. At least I've seen a number of owners here having issues before they reach 60k. The oil drains into the sump so the first few strokes are basically on bare metal until the engine circulates the oil throughout. IMHO that is. I'm sure someone will jump in and say it's BS. I'm just a computer geek with my first Porsche all of 3 months actual driving, so take this with a grain of salt.

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The oil thing is BS. Go put some oil on a metal surface and come back to it 3 months later and let me know how bare it is compared to how it would be after a day. There's a some caveats with a super low mileage car but it really depends on why.

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Ahhh, the first BS accusation. Ok, a more in depth explanation explanation since you appear to have some experience with the 996.x model. The oil on the cylinder wall will oxidize. The oil in the sump does too. Driving 1 to 2k a year is detrimental to the oil without any regard to frequent oil changes. When it just sits, oxidation becomes greater risk and is a factor that effects engine life. A '99 996 with 30k miles is just itching to be a problem. From rubber deteriorating and so on with the engine having a greater risk of failure by 60k assuming the IMS issue has been addressed earlier on. 'Bare metal' is more understandable than info regarding oxidation. Over exaggerated, yes, but it makes a point anyone can understand without prior knowledge or understanding of ICE. I never assume a person is knowledgeable. If that makes me look like an idiot, so be it. I've dealt with these situations daily since '90 until I retired. It never goes away. Do you know how to answer end users using the simplest terms and analogies they can understand drawing upon things they are familiar with ?

I think the title of this thread should be "Mezger engined cars - where is the market heading?" Widebody M96 cars are not in the same category as GT3 and 996TT

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A Turbo isn�t in the same category as a GT3.

in current market value, of course not; but both Mezger engined cars which is more of a defining factor than wide fender arches

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I don't hate my interior but I have to admit it's pretty plasticky and, considering the price tag of the car, cheap feeling. I pretty much forget all about it as soon as I twist the key. I'm 100% okay with 996 valuations. The value proposition is why I bought one in the first place. At the same time I try to be honest when it comes to future values.

From a 996 C4S owner, my perspective is I will drive the car, enjoy it, and probably get most of my money back out of it when/if I sell. I think that is a win. Turbos are a different story, as they are clearly appreciating.

In general, 996 prices have been going up because demand is going up. Whats not to love about any 996 model? 1. Attractive entry point 2. Incredible analog and visceral driving experience versus the bigger, heavier, digital feel of newer models. 3. We know everything that can go wrong on the car and how to prevent it from happening with the proper refresh and upgrade items. 4. Huge aftermarket support with parts and service. 5. The car is aging well in looks w/ the ability to dress it up or down with exterior aero parts and interior upgrades. I can go on and on with many more points...

"996 C4S and Turbo - Where is the Market Heading?" Well like others have said, all 996 are heading up. The 996 TT is on a steep incline up. As are any 996 that have 'GT' on the back engine lid. Mezger engines are in all the most sought after 996, no 2 ways around it... Many real nice lower mile TT units selling in the 6 figure + range. GT's are now in the stratosphere for the most part... C4S also is on its way up, but nothing like the 996TT. As are other 996 models from base units to opted out ones... All heading in the upward trend more or less... One look on BaT tells the whole story...

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It may be that the "fewer version" model 996s pricing will remain strong. Versions like 40AE, the C4S, and any GTx will remain strong. I think the C4S is the best looking of the bunch, the 40AE is OK, but just has its own pedigree following. The 996TT is another story. Some folks, like me, had previous turbo 911s, and do not want another turbo for any reason. Others with factory "aero-stuff" appeal to some. Cabs and any Tip are another sector, and have a different following. The Cab top-complexity and sort of "broken design lines" are not for everyone. The Tip bashing is overblown, and is something "older buyers" consider. FWIW, you can shift the Tip in speed-corner and not upset the engine or loose rpms - quote Brandon Clark. There is the sea of light grays and silver colors, so anything different stands out of the crowd. The rest of the 996s look "plain-jane" to me, so I opted for C4S. OK, I am biased. In addition to strong pricing, there are some top tier shops that rebuild the 996/7 engine (original 3.4 or 3.6 >> ?) to amazing levels of performance without a turbo or two Other shops now rebuild standard engines and have good results, but not as stellar as the top tier dudes. Nearly all rebuilds fix the 996/997 warts and failure points. Sure, any rebuild is $$$, but if you like the car, there are not many others that perform like a (or any) Porsche. Rebuilds can easily exceed 997 Carrera S specs, so why not? Newer Pcars are priced toward the stratosphere, so that makes any 996 or 997 desirable. JMO YMMV

I think prices will hold or continue to go up very slightly every year. My car has 93k Miles on it now and is a c4s. I dont expect to lose money on the sale if im ever ready to get rid of it. Sure am losing money maintaining it though. :-)

I think all 996s are trickling up, but the C4S a little more rapidly and the 996TT even more so. Part of me really wants a 996 Turbo, not so much for the increase in power, but for the increase in durability in the Mezger. But part of me really wants a C4S because I think they look better than the Turbo. I often think about getting a Turbo and swapping the rear engine lid with one from a C4S to get the best of both worlds. Then I think maybe a C4S with a bored out 4.0 is the best of all, because of that lovely NA sound. Then I just go drive the wheels off my 2000 ME Fister'd manual coupe and love every minute of that, so.....anyways, deep thoughts...... carry on....

Whatever you do, DO NOT swap out the deck lid! I recently saw a used Turbo on line and the seller painted the center between the taillights red and stuck a Turbo emblem on it. Looked awful- again just my opinion. If you want the 4S, get one and be happy. If you decide on a Turbo, get one and be happy. But don't try to make one look like the other. Just wasn't meant to be that way. As for values, I agree that it has been a very slow climb to nearly flat for most cars. I still see dreamer dealers trying to get high $60s and low $70s for 02 to 04 C4S cars. I'd be surprised if they are trading in the level. Turbos seemed to routinely crack the $60 to $80 range with outliers selling for over $100k. I think the NA 996 has a while to go before it gets there. Seems $38 to $45 is the most common ask for a decent C4S. I paid $42.5 in 2021 for an 03 with 56k miles at the time. I've put around 10k on the car which is too little! I think I can get $44 to $45 for the car realistically. But I'm not looking to sell just yet - or maybe ever.

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Well Im sure that did look awful. Painting a Turbo decklid and swapping decklids are two differnet things. Theres no difference in the look of the body from the rear of the 2 cars other than a decklid, so if you like the look of the rear of a C4S, you would like the look of a Turbo with a C4S wingless decklid. Honestly, I think the best looking 996 of all would be a C4S with a 996.1 front end conversion with Aerokit front bumper and sideskirts, and without the wing of course.

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The engine lid if a C4S and a Turbo are different. They do not fit the same and air intakes, etc are different. Each car is different, with "Power-delight" going to Turbo and "Aesthetic-delight" going to C4S. Personally, I like the C4S more, looks waay better than a Turbo. I have a C4S. JMO. YMMV

Also,,, seems both the C4S & 996TT are getting far and few between compared to not so long ago... TT on BaT use to sell 4-6 TT nice examples a week, now lucky if there are 2. Pretty much the same for C4S. A nice red low mile C4S BaT action is at $57K right now with 2 days left. Wonder if it will get over $60k..? https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...a-4s-coupe-10/

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I like the way you think!

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Couldnt the intakes under the lid could be swapped over from the Turbo to the C4S lid?

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TT Coupe and C4S coupe deck lids are different sizes, Turbo lid is about 4" longer. No 3rd brake light under rear window on Turbo, so the sheet metal under the rear window is shorter. But... all Cab decklids are the same so C4S cab deck lid fits Turbo Cab.

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Ticks two important boxes to modern day buyers. 1. Color 2. Mileage

Get a 997. It is highly improved over the 996. I have owned two C4S cars. The 996 is great, but the 997 is better.

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Curious, in your opinion, what makes it better?

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Originally Posted by studawg Then I think maybe a C4S with a bored out 4.0 is the best of all, because of that lovely NA sound. Go for the Slakker 4.1L. Amazing results standard, and more if "Adds -$$). I also saw 4.5L parts on the shelf at Slakker, hmmmm. Brandon said in a video that they have 3 @ 4.5L in the works.... YMMV

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#1. Well, maybe. I don't like the red on C4S because the color obscures or make the heckblende-thing disappear like in camo. Other light colors are better. I would not buy Red, Yellow, Silver-ish, or Black, no deal. Some blues are OK. I saw an Ice-Green Metallic C4S, my absolute favorite. White is good, and Macadamia Nut Metallic, but all are rare colors. Lots of silver (dentist) and light grays. I think the Seal Gray (is that the name?) is good, 1/2 light/dark. But, C4Ss are not everywhere, so I bought a darker PTS metallic gray C4S, price, distance, etc made it for me. Eventually "a bird in the hand..." (...makes blowing your nose difficult.) #2. Toss-up. That amount of low miles may be a detriment to engine and rubber parts not used or flexed, whatever. Things like tires need immediate replacement. Lotsa variables in low miles. Jake says he prefers an engine with (some) miles proving that the thing works. I guess it depends on your point of view. And, a point (of view) in every direction is the same as no point at all. YMMV