Lifter noise

So, my 3.4 developed a small lifter ticking on idle. Noise goes away if I lift the rews to 1500, and slowly comes back on idle. And the question, what do you think about those topend treatments? Or should I just go to thicker oil, I'm now running Castrol 5W-40 syntec. I know that the lifters from bmw will fit to my engine, and costs about 15usd a piece. But I just got the engine back to car and I have no time to do it again now. (lazy) So if anyone of you have any ideas, please chime in

I do not think putting BMW lifters in is a good idea. I am not an expert on the valvetrain on the 996 but in previous cars I have owned I could adjust the valve lash to reduce ticking.

The obvious of keep the rpms up Some times liters free themselves. Had a car a long time ago that loved to do it intermitently. Maybe see if it goes away after warmed up. The lifters are know to mushroom a bit with age.

Lifter ticks only when engine is hot, so the higher oil viscosity might help. Issue is not that the lifter sticks, but it leaks a little on lower oilpressure. Bmw hydraulic lifters are the same that Porsche uses. Manufactured by INA. Only 50% cheaper

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I stand corrected.

change oil brands cheap way to try something else, I suggest Shell Helix Ultra (should be a Euro oil) as for the lifters I think its only a matter of time till we start seeing more of them stuck. What happens is the inner cylinder becomes mushroomed at the top and causes it to either get stuck in or partially out. Here is a pic of the issue... I have taken quite a few of these apart and can tell you they will get stuch at some point due to wear... the ticking stems from the lifter running on the wrong portion of the cam, in the vario cam the center section rides on the lobe at low rmp and the larger section runs on the lobe above 1500 rpm...so if the center is stuck, that valve ticks - (more or less the way it works)

Using flushes and treatments are only going to make the situation worse. These lifters have only one inlet hole into them, so when they become clogged its impossible to free them up without pulling them. The single oil inlet makes the lifter become a small filter for debris that ends up at the furthest portion of the pressurized portion of the oil system. Most every engine with more than 50K miles will have at least 25% of it's lifters become clogged and sticky. We see this all the time when performing update work and teardowns. I have seen one 47K mile engine that has 22 of its 24 lifters stuck in the collapsed position, it didn't sound all that bad, but it did only get 15 MPG. The extended oil service intervals contribute greatly to these problems along with the choice for oil. The same goes for tensioners.

+1 for the one hole thing... I forgot to mention... the oil in your lifter is most likely the oil that was in there when it left Germany no matter how many oil changes you have done.... I also noticed that and was like... WTF???? yea, any dirt that goes in aint neva comin out! (sorry, but its true)

Ivangene, my car is 3.4, so no variocam plus. I'll try the oil change. And if that wont work, I'll change the 1-3cyl lifters.

DOH.. I should read ALL the words I need to pull some of these apart and get pics for you guys

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I still believe if you accelerate and brake making max G's and take turns at max G's the debri and old oils are worked out of the lifters into the filter.

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In your area I would think you should be running a 0w-40 oil. Before I replaced the lifters I'd try an oil/filter service. Even after the oil change the noise might be present. It takes some running to replace the oil in the lifters with fresh oil. Also, Porsche techs tell me a noisy engine can sometimes be quieted down using a Swepco 502 oil treatment. If the oil change alone and some running time, during which the engine gets hot and higher rpms are reached (though there is no need to thrash the engine) you might try this Swepco stuff. Only if all of the above failed would you then replace the lifters. But do you know for sure it is a lifter noise? You just had the engine out. Perhaps a plug is loose, or cracked? Or there is an exhaust leak? Sincerely, Macster.

Thanks for good ideas I have drove 3k km after I put the engine back. (including couple of 600km road trips) I had this same problem in my Z32 tt and it went away when I changed the oils to 20w-60 castrol racing. I think that the exhaus leak can be heard on upper revs allso?

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Exhaust leaks can sound like a valve ticking when the leak is at where the headers go to the heads.

I thought I read Porsche started using 0w-40 because of complaints about lifter noise.

for what it`s worth as i am on 997 m96 3.6L i had valve lifters knocking after AX runs consistently - so i installed x51 pan and went to heavier 5w50 oil and it stopped completely. now i use 5w50 for winter and 50/50 mix of 5w50 and 15w50 oils for summer. seems to work fine for DE and AX.

In our experience the weight of the oil can be a "band aid" for one symptom and lead to others, especially using heavy weight oils in VC+ engines. The brand of oil and its elemental composition is the key, not just the weight. Fact is most people reading this have 1/2 of their lifters no longer properly functioning due to debris blocking their oiling passages. Using a flush makes it worse, it flushes all the other debris right into the lifters as they are the final portion of the pressurized oil delivery system.

so let me understand 1- there is nothing you can do unless you open the engine ? 2- what are the consequences of stuck lifter ? aside of the noise ?

1- This remedy requires intervention. Remove the cam covers, remove the cams. The lifters basically fall out. 2- Noisy lifters are lifters that are collapsed. The M96 engine loses roughly 20% of it's net valve lift if a lifter is collapsed. This results in uneven idling, poor chamber filling, reduced power and most notably a reduction in fuel mileage. I have literally performed an upgraded lifter retrofit and the car piked up 10 MPG on its return trip home over what it averaged while being driven 450 miles to our facility for the work to be carried out. Noisy lifters won't lead to big booms, but they can lead to broken lifter cradles from the excess side loading of the lifter traveling further before contacting the valve. The collapsed lifters always lead to excess valve lash, which is what creates the noise. They never stick "open", always "closed" (or collapsed)

Thought I would jump in on the use of "BMW lifters" as I think I was the first to post on this a couple of years ago. The original lifters for a 3.4 VarioCam engine (actually all VarioCam engines including the Boxster) were part number 996.105.041.50, and were used on both the intake and exhaust valves. These lifters were made by INA and were also used in several BMW engines including 2000 X5 V8's. In 2002 when Porsche introduced the 3.6 VarioCamPlus engine the lifters were changed. The intake lifters were completely redesigned and the exhaust lifters were revised (I don't know how as they function the same as the old lifters) and had a new part number 996.105.041.72. Porsche also superseded the lifters for the VarioCam engines to this new part number and at some point in time stopped distribution the old lifters/part number. I don't know what specific changes were made in the design between the old part number 996.105.041.50 and the new part number 996.105.041.72. Perhaps Jake Raby can shed some light on this. However the new exhaust lifters were more expensive than the old ones (the new intake lifters were much more complex and were much much more expensive). When I was fixing the intermix on my engine I discovered that more than half of my lifters were "collapsed" and started to look at alternatives for replacing them. I did a lot of searching on the internet trying to find an inexpensive source for lifters. In searching for the old part number I could not find any source at all but saw some references to BMW's. Found several sources for the new part number. Being persistent I found a website and catalog for Febi/Bilstein for lifters, including ones made by INA. I found the new part number. Took a look through the BMW section of the catalog and found that the 2000 X5 V8 listed a lifter with both a BMW part number (11 32 1 748 884) and the old Porsche part number. Then found a source for the BMW lifter that at that time was only $12.02@. I talked with them and they were not sure of the fitment for the Porsche. I ordered 24 of them and they were exactly the same lifters as the ones I had taken out of my engine. So yes the BMW lifters will fit a VarioCam engine (and I am guessing they would fit the exhaust side of a VarioCamPlus engine) and are still readily available under the BMW part number. Unless someone can explain why the superseded lifters are "better" than the old lifters, I for one am happy to use them.

For those who are interested, Pelican Parts lists the new Porsche part 996.105.041.72 for $47.75@. If you search under the old part number it will redirect you to the new part number. But if you go to the BMW section and search for the BMW part number 11 32 1 748 884 they have them for $18.25@

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It is interested to hear that poor MPG might be an indicator of 'dead lifters'. I heard some 996 owner complaining about bad MPG and I was surprised as I get great MPG on my car but it only has 30k miles on it. I hope someday someone will post a DIY on this cam removal procedure. At least it doesn't seems to be fatal to then engine. phil

I think I'm having the same problem with one or more of my lifters on my 99 c2. (104k miles) A mechanic friend of mine agrees, but I haven't taken in to my local indy shop yet. How many hours labor do you think would be required for a competent p-car mechanic to replace all lifters? Also, the noise I'm hearing seems to come from the left side only. Should all of them be changed, if just one is bad, or just one side is causing the problem? I read an interesting post that Doug wrote about what's involved in changing them out as a DIY. I'm comfortable changing spark plugs, but this may be a little beyond me. -Jason

What's poor mileage? I'm getting 18 and just got 19 last refill.

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He must have the proper cam timing tools to carry out this job. It is not difficult, but procedural. I have prepared an in depth article that covers this and it is available to those shops in our network. Most 996s in good tune and health will get 23MPG and maybe as much as 23 on the open road. With MPG in the 16 range I'd say your engine probably does have worn vario cam components or lazy lifters or both. Collapsed lifters effect MPG because MPG is a direct reflection of efficiency. Cylinders that have lazy lifters actuating their valves see poor chamber filling and uneven firing. The MPG shows these issues more than anything else, even when the collapsed lifters aren't audible.

My car goes 21 to 22 MPG. I drive mostly to work and back. On city and highway. To me this ticking is anoying... Well mayby I'm just too meticulous with my cars

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Given the complaints to Mike Miller of Bimmer Mag. about BMW engine lifter noise I'm not sure BMW lifters are the way to go. While the Porsche lifters with the new part number are expensive they might be better lifters, be quieter and last longer? Sincerely, Macster.

I don't disagree with Macster that the newer lifters might be better/longer lasting than the old ones. I wish we could all find out what the design/difference is. However with 24 lifters the price of the old ones is only $438 plus tax while the new ones would be $1,146 plus tax. WOW! I know that Flat 6 was offering their rebuilt, modified lifters for about $500 a year ago. Not sure if Jake still offers them. Jake, it would be great if you could explain the difference in the designs and confirm if you still offer the modified lifters.

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Jake, what choice of oil would you recommend to prevent this issue, or delay, or reduce severity?

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Thats easy, Flat Six Oil. We still offer the updated lifters, but we use them so fast that we can't keep them in stock these days. Between elective update work, repairs and engine builds our shelves stay depleted. It is imperative when changing lifters to have the lifter carrier measured for taper and excess wear at the 6-12 O clock positions. Not doing this spells certain death to lifters at around 8K miles at the wear eff3etcs the lifter rotation during operation and increases wear dramatically. We've learned this the hard way during test work and even in one of our updated engines.

So the problem could be the lifter carrier? I did inspect my lifters when I changed the variocam pad's, and those were like new. But I didn't check the lifter carrier... Can the lifters be dismantled?

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I have learned how to dismantle the plus lifters but unless you are used to it they are pretty complicated and in the end not sure there is any benefit...its time consuming and the results may not be worth the effort and you might have to do them a "few times" to get them right...replacement is a pretty good option here (sorry I havent followed all this, but some)

The lifter carrier is part of the problem with noise in some instances, BUT until a worn lifter carrier is used with new or modified lifters the issues don't really become apparent. I've only had two warranty repairs since we've been providing M96 engines, both were due to slightly worn lifter carriers that were not replaced that lead to failed lifters. Neither of those caused any other engine damage, but one of them did cost me a trip to Oregon and I had to replace the lifters and components in my client's garage.. Thank goodness he was a cool guy! Now the car is still running perfect. You can get into real trouble reusing lifter carriers with new lifters, unless you know what to measure and where and good luck finding any wear specs, because they don't exist. Experience taught us whats allowable, but now we simply replace the lifter carrier no matter what.. Thats where part of the 20K price tag for my engine comes from. The BMW lifters that I have seen are exactly the same, no changes at all. The wholesale cost of the two are also the same, within 50 cents each of being exact.

Never thought to measure the lifter carrier. Just looked up the part (996.104.105.53 and the list is $664.64@, discounted about $561.79@. So easily $1,200+ to replace the carriers when you replace the lifters. Now we start to better understand what Jake does on his rebuilds. Just hoping that I don't develop problems with my new lifters. Have 10,000+ miles and have not noticed anything.

Development of two lifter carrier alternatives is underway: 1- Bushing the lifter carrier to restore it's exact factory dimension 2-Making a completely billet lifter carrier. Doing this allows more performance enhancements through the potential for more valve lift. As it stands, aggressive camshafts and high lift are not a possibility without carrier valley failure. As always, we'd rather make an ultra high performance USA manufactured part as to spend the money with Porsche... Still on the quest to only be buying gasket sets from Porsche at some point...

Hmm, I just came back from 300km highway trip, no more noise on idle... Well I'm ok with this

Update to noise issues. What in the ..... could cause this one? I park the car after driving it, let it sit about 3-4h. Then I start the car, and it makes metallic arrr for 1 sec. This noise will not occur another time if I shut off the engine and start it again. Nor it will happen in the morning. Some how it seems to be related to oilpressure, but I have no idea why it won't make the sound when the engine is completly cold. There is some resonance when engine is hot and revs are lifted to 2500 rpm Could this be related to the lifters? Catalysators? Mufflers? The timingchain tensioners are new Variocam pads and chains are new Timingchains and guides were good condition Camshafts were like new Startermotor is new

have you thought about simply trying a differant oil ?

Try Mobile 1 15w50

Aux air pump?

Something else to worry about???

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Since IIRC you were in and at the engine and replaced a lot of stuff, I'm going to have to believe the problem may be internal. But I'd not tear into the engine based on my opinion. One thing that can help you is to try to determine if the noise is coming from inside the engine or outside of the engine. Since you know how to reliably reproduce the symptom one 'trick' would be to drive the car as you have in the past, getting it as hot or warm as you have int then past, then remove the serpentine belt and let the car sit for the 3 to 4 hours. Change nothing else. Then after the time has expired, start the engine and see if the noise is still present. If it isn't, then a very strong possibiilty is the noise is coming from an accessory drive or an idler roller. If the noise is still present, it may still not be internal to the engine, but external, from perhaps from the starter motor and the overrunning clutch. Or the starter gear is slow to engage from the flywheel. Or the flywheel teeth or starter motor gear teeth or worn. Another thing you can do is disconnect the secondary air pump from the wiring harness so it doesn't start up. Or IIRC remove a fuse so the thing can't run. Then repeat the steps you know will generate the noise and see if the noise is still present. You have to be sure the noise is not something external to the engine's internals. If the noise can only be coming from the inside of the engine.. well cross that bridge when you come to it. I don't know many people who've been inside an engine but I can tell that almost every one at one point or another had to go back inside because of some problem. Experience is a harsh teacher. Sincerely, Macster.

Is there a DIY thread out there for the lifter removal/install ? Not sure I want to jump on the work as it seems big but I could not get a straight answer, does this require engine removal ? are there some videos showing before and after noise ? because the Porsche engine are kind of noisy and I wonder what is normal click noise and what is abnormal stuck lifter noise Phil.

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This was on my mind when the idle noise was still there, The engine does not make "ticking" on idle. Will try that thou. Ok, or castrol 10W50. Now running Casrtol 5W40 Syntec. Oil pressure is 2bar when engine is hot -98 model, no airpump Well, I think that this is valvetrain issue. I dont think that this is a big deal, but sure is had to track down. Macster, I have tryed it with out the aux belt, noise is still there. My rear spoiler makes a real racket if i tap it with my hand, I think that it's the next thing to check...

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Hey speed, I just saw your post above about your strange engine noise. I have a 2005 997, but the engine is very similar to the 996 and I had nearly identical symptoms to you. Metallic noise upon startup if the engine was warm but not driven for a while. And if the engine was idling for a minute or two (like at a red light or something) and I revved the motor to exactly 3,000 RPMs I would get a loud raspy metallic noise. I had the car into the dealer 4 or 5 times. They replaced 1 catalytic converter the first time, replaced the motor mounts with GT2 motor mounts another time. Sent me home with the car and the noise was immediately noticable to me. It was hard to diagnose because the conditions had to be just right for the noise to be evident. It turns out it was the oil pump. I'm not sure exactly what the problem was with the pump. I always had plenty of pressure on the gauge. But the noise would only happen when the oil pressure was low and building pressure. So a cold start up or rev would not do anything because the pressure was so high. And a quick start or a rev after moderate rpms would not do anything because there was residual pressure. But if the oil was hot and the engine was idling for a couple of minutes, or if it was just started - the noise would be there. Sorry for the long explanation. Long story short they replaced the oil pump about 8 months and 5,000 miles ago and the noise is finally gone for good. At least I got a free set of GT2 motor mounts. My car is so much faster now! I hope this helps you find your elusive noise. Good luck!

Thank you JW911. I will try the oilpump. It is much easyer to change than lifter's. I hope that this will fix the problem...

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Well, I was just trying to be helpful and cover all bases. Knowing as precisely as one can where the noise comes from helps pinpoint the cause of the noise. Sincerely, Macster.

Just as an FYI. I drove my car all night listening to what sounded like a lifter noise as well. It was bugging me so much that I had to drive it and test the engine in all circumstances to try to really hear it out. Radio off, air off, sunroof tilted, sunroof closed, sunroof open, idle beside a wall, drive beside a wall, all sorts of revving, man I was pissed. I simply changed my spark plugs and it completely went away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boy was I ever relieved!

i bet ya 15w-50 will get rid of that tickin...

Well, I will change the oils next weekend. Will see if that helps. I all ready have parts for lifter change, but I have not yet the find time to do it. Now that the oil pump was mentioned, I used the "stethoscope" to listen the internal noises and the oil pump does make a lot of mechanical noise. Only problem is, that I have no idea how much noise is normal Gearpump's are allways loud..

Ok... the plot thickens going back a little earlier in this thread. I cross referenced the P/N 11321748884 to P/N W0133-1629880 which cross references to a febi-bilstein cam follower 07589 which is less expensive than the INA P/N. They are both German companies, probably both made in China anyways. LOL. http://www.febi-parts.com/article.ph...ut=11321748884 Anyone have opinions on using febi-bilstein vs. INA? Hmmmmm.......... As I go down this wormhole it starts to get even more interesting. Look at these other P/N's the febi part cross references to. AJUSA:85004500 AUTEX:955053 FEBI:07589 INA:420004910 IPD:454048 RUVILLE:265010 SWAG:99180004 TOPRAN:500887

The lifters are the same. In the early times frame of the VarioCam engines Porsche and BMW used the same lifters sourced from the same manufacturer. Later Porsche superseded the part number ending with 50 to one ending in 72. This was done at the time that the VarioCamPlus engines came out and for the 3.6 on engines it was only used for the exhaust lifters, the intake lifter were completely different. Porsche no longer supplies the 50 lifters but you can find them. I used them when I replaced mine.

LOL, even finding an application for the updated 72 lifter that fits a Kia. P/N 0K95K-12-101A. Has the same dimensions. 24x33. I don't think I would be the first to test out the Kia lifters though... made by who knows :-) http://www.autocarspare.com/catalog/...95k12101a.html

I ordered a set of 24 new (old P/N) lifters from this place. Fast shipping, and they were all packaged as the Ruville P/N 265010. Sure enough, INA stamped... http://www.dasautosport.com/khxc/eco...1_748_884.html I also found a German ebay auction, a set of 24 sold for about $150. The seller did not want to ship to USA unfortunately.

damn ....... Now after reading this, what i thought the sound was coming from the water pump, turns out to be the lifters .... Major job again ....

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Don't jump to conclusions, diagnose everything properly. As mentioned in my case, I thought the same, and I thought it would be a major job, but it ended up being the spark plugs that caused a ever so slight ticking noise that I could only hear with everything off and the sunroof tilted. Changed the plugs and the tick was gone. These cars make all kinds of noises, some normal, some not so normal and every single Porsche I have heard sounds different. All a distinct Porsche sound, but all uniquely different at the same time.

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Agreed. My spark plugs are very new. Anyway i am Still gonna change my water pump and tension rollers to see if the sound goes away. If not, i am gonna try switching to thicker oils. If the noise still doesnt go away i am just gonna do the lifters ... Is 14L/100km normal? Just to describe, the sound goes, koing koing koing. And to make me more unhappy, my sunroof headliner sagged ... Cheers

In regards to the previous post: https://rennlist.com/forums/8622017-post16.html

Main reason for me to change my water pump is to swap to low temp thermostat

anyone care to see a 996 lifter where the center plunger broke thru the cam side and started riding on the cam

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Not to start another oil war but I was told by my indy that the 0W 40 was used by Porsche to gain an extra 1 mpg and in further reading on my own I found out that the EPA requires manufactures to fill the autos with the oil that they are tested with, list the weight used as the recommended weight, both on the car and in the owners manual, plus sign a sworn statement that their dealers will use the weight of oil recommended. That weight is 0W40 for Porsche and is considered a 'world oil' by Mobil in that the formula is the same for all conditions/countries. There are several statements online with a reference to EPA and CARB rules as to emissions standards which one would figure means that there must have been a 'gain' for Porsche to use this oil when meeting the EPA smog testing. It makes sense from an economic point if every vehicle Porsche makes get's filled with the same oil - volume pricing! I didn't sign any EPA agreement so I run 5W 40!! Cheers.

Ivangene Love to see that one. Fortunately I have a 3.4 so not that style of lifter. Toronto Worker - You are right on about the use of lower weight oils for mpg. Take a look at many other cars, lots of American cars are no running 5/20 and 5/30 for mpg. I always run higher weight oils in all my vehicles. I am more concerned with wear protection than mileage.

Ok, new oil pump and new lifters. Took me 11h of non stop work to pull this of. Ouch, my back is killing me. Will test tomorrow if the new parts make the noises go away... I think so... Fingers crossed... I did not drop the engine for the lifters, so those can be changed while the engine is in the car. I did lower the engine thou, becouse you need to remove the engine bracket to get to oil pump.

Some pics here pics Nothig fancy, just some pics that I had time to take... With my cell phone, so some of those arent too good... top 5 ones are new.

So, 2 out of 3 symptoms were solved with these parts. No more cold start noises, no more 3k rpm resonanse. Car pulls smoother and harder than before, but... When I start the car, 30min's after long drive, it still makes loud "ARRR" that lasts about 1 or 2 sec. I have tryed it with out the aux belt, no difference. New chaintensioners New lifters New oilpump New variocampads New startermotor Timing chains fit well on the sprokets, so I think that there is no strech on those. Beginning to wonder, could it be the dualmass flw? At this point, all the oilpressure related parts are changed. So what parts could be affected when heat rises after run?

Great job doing all of those repairs and thanks for the pictures! Can you tell us more about the ARRR noise? If not here perhaps in a new thread? Unless you think it is lifter related?

This one has bug me since day one I bought the car. First I drive the car hot. Let it sit 30mins and start the car, it makes loud metallic sound. If I turn off the engine and start it again, no more noises. Purs like a kitten. No problems other than this noise. Makes me mad, I hate all the "not normal" noises... It's hard to describe, but it sound's like bad lifter or bad chaintensioner. All of the oilpressure related parts are new. Only the scavengepump's are stil original. When starting the engine hot, it does start more "violently". I think that I must ask some friend to start the car when it's on lift, and listen where the noise comes from.

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Researching my repair orders to prepare for future service and came across the order when my intake lifters on bank 2 were replaced at 44k miles. It says 1 intake lifter stuck on high on cylinder 6 - I remember that when it happened it was VERY noticable and triggered the CEL. So I guess in my case it was an exception to "they never stick open". I was in the shop when the lifters were pulled and I do remember the tech showing me how the lifter was supposed to work and how 1 of mine simply would not close. They only replaced the 6 intake lifters on bank 2, stating that it was in accordance with Porsche warranty repair specs. One thing is for sure, if it sticks open, you will definitely notice it - I didn't need the CEL to telll me something was wrong, very very wrong. Approaching 70k - and after reading this now thinking it is also time for lifter replacement??