High RPM might be good for IMS bearing!

There seems to be a potential (and possibly contested?) upside to tracking your M96. I trust LN Engineering / Flat6 in their opinions and experience, and here is a possible upside to (occasional) higher rpm usage on an M96 as it pertains to the dreaded IMS (quoted from the following http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html ). See the line I've highlighted below in red . So, drive it like it was stolen, and keep your car happier! Now THAT'S Porsche engineering! Lol!! (I'm sort of kidding folks, I don't think if you beat the crap out of your car, you'll make it happier. But there is some truth to this I believe). But, in order for oil to get in the bearing seals must be removed. Still, interesting info. Happy tracking! The engineer�s initial thoughts were that the ball-separator failure led to bearing collapse, but after analysis of said IMS bearings, it would appear that bearing wear/fatigue spalls lead to separator wear and outer race failure. Separator failure and bearing collapse causes catastrophic failure of the mounting bolt(s) and IMS/timing chain components. The first recommendation was to use a bearing without seals and secondly to use a higher viscosity oil (with greater film strength). More frequent changes will also improve lubrication quality. An oil with extreme pressure additives like Moly might also further assist in increasing bearing life. Higher rpms also increases bearing life as this lessens the viscosity requirements of the lubricant to maintain EHD lubrication, also providing a reasonable explanation of the lack of IMS failures in tracked cars or those driven "like they were stolen." Likewise, far more failures are found in engines with low mileage that are garage queens and never driven to their full potential. Further recommendations by the retired Timken engineer are evident in the design of LN Engineering�s IMS upgrade and retrofit kits.

Hmmm.......interesting. Timken bearings must be good, we use them and *** in our jet engines. I guess I'd trust the Engineer on his assessment about revving the motors high. Although, I'm struggling with the viscocity thing.

well, that explains why my IMS is intact

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One has to be careful with the info... A car that is used daily, is driven long(er) distances, and as a result has less water and unburned gasoline build up in the oil could potentially tolerate harsher driving -- being driven like it was stolen -- without any harm other than the wear and tear the other engine internals would experience. Whether the engine cases need splitting cause the IMS needs attention or the rings/pistons or main/rod bearings need attention is sort of a lose lose scenario. But for someone who drive's his car seldom, uses it mostly for short trips, to advise him to drive the car like it was stolen could hasten an IMS (or other) failure. There is some benefit for subjecting the engine to higher rpms... but the benefit comes not necessarily from the higher rpms but in the higher g forces the car and engine is subjected too. This activity causes the oil that is caught in the IMS (which is hollow and open at one end based on pictures I've seen of IMSs) gets sloshed around and the oil partially exchanged with fresher oil, oil that contains less water and gasoline dilution. As a result the IMS seal is not compromised or if it is the oil that makes its way into the bearing is of better condition. Additionally the oil that remains in the shaft and puddled at the bottom of the bearing race(s) is less corrosive and as a consequence the bearing races, *****, separators are not corrosively attacked and do not suffer minor surface corrosion damage that over time can escalate into major failure. Interesting point of view is Porsche and BMW and Mercedes cars/engines still have too much of their European heritage which came about from the usage these cars experienced. This usage involved (and still does to a certain extent) lower ambient operating temperatures and fewer short trips and less time spent idly in traffic. The engines are not well suited for the type of driving most cars experience in the USA. Higher ambient temperatures in most of the US. Shorter trips. More traffic congestion thus more idling. OTOH Japanese engines developed for use in Japan are better suited for use in the USA cause driving conditions in Japan are similar to USA. Ambient temperature notwithstanding. Japanese driving is in mostly congested conditions with short trips, slow trips, and lots of idling. Drive your Porsche like you stole it is I think bad advice. Drive your Porsche like you were in Germany is better. To expand upon this: Avoid short trips. Avoid congestion. Avoid prolonged or excessive idling. Take longer trips. Sure, use more of the engine's rpm band if you want as long as engine up to operating temperature. And always consider changing the oil/filter more frequently. Sincerely, Macster.

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I googled EHD and it makes sense why the Engineer said what he said.

Good points, Macster. I agree with you, I wouldn't advise everyone to drive their P cars all the time like they stole them either, but there still is some truth in it to an extent. You're points on stop and go traffic are interesting. Although, IMO, other than actual engine design itself, I would think that any engine built to proper tolerances would be fine in both long and short drive conditions. I don't think any engine loves to be idled excessively, and there are plenty of Japanese cars with short and long miles on them that hold up for 300k. I think in the end it boils down to the quality of the engineering that went into the motor design in the first place, the QC of the engine build from the factory, and routine maintenance. P dropped the ball on a few parts of the M96 design IMO, and so routine maintenance plays an even bigger part. General-public Japanese cars (i.e. Civics, Corollas, etc) typically don't get driven like a Porsche either. And when they do, many times excessive smoke will be the result from the pipe. You have to admit that the longevity of Japanese motors as a whole is something to be admired.

So what you are basically saying is....... if you have had an IMS failure you aren't driving hard,or fast enough !

I agree that the core issue with this Porsche is that it is not well suited to the way most us are forced to drive it. I agree that operating this engine closer to its peak of efficiency rpm-wise is going to extend its life (those who recall the famous Autofarm article will remember that premature wear of its reciprocating parts is not one of the M96's vices). I agree that more frequent oil changes are the cheapest possible preventative maintenance (German car companies stretch recommended intervals to the max in order to avoid environmental levies on lifetime petroleum consumption). Macster's final paragraph sums it up nicely for me. Plus this: After I saw how much oil came out of my IMS, the idea of it vibrating around in there was quite terrifying. Now, I put an extra premium on smoothness, especially at launch. Clutches are cheaper than motors.

The point of the OP is the ball bearing for the IMS is better suited for high-RPM, not so much the engine as a whole.

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TY Tippy.

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Well, my search found it refers to electrically charged fluids and the effects this has on them. I fail to see how this applies for engine oil is not electrically charged, though perhaps the oil can build up a static charge? Extremely agitated fluid -- like water -- can build up a static charge: IIRC this was the cause of some tanker ship explosions as the water being blasted about by high pressure nozzles inside the ship's storage tanks during cleaning of these tanks would develop a static charge that if the static electrical charge discharged at the wrong time -- with the presence of an explosive atmosphere in the tank -- this could trigger an explosion. Obviously there must be some other meaning. Higher engine speeds mean higher loads on all engine parts, and more heat from of course the increase in fuel burned and the increase in heat generated by internal friction. This added load and heat requires more from an oil, not less. I fail to see how increasing the load and heat that an oil must deal with is beneficial to a bearing that is by some accounts not up the task to begin with and by the opinion of some knowledgeable people lubricated with an oil that may not be up to the task either. Sincerely, Macster.

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Macster, I think you're thinking of the wrong EHD. What you found is Electro hydrodynamic properties, but I believe the EHD as it pertains to this application is Elasto hydrodynamic. http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrica...ubrication.htm

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That is all I can contribute to this thread as well. No engineering degree in my pocket.

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Officer: Do you know how fast you were going? 996 Owner: Why yes officer, I was just going fast enough to prevent an IMS failure.

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LOL!! If you were a chick you might be able to get away with that. I new a gal who would speed, get pulled over, and would tell the officer, "the garage man said that I needed to keep the pointer (then points at the tack) at 4 or 5 for the engine to last the longest." And then she'd give the officer those big, sad, scared eyes. But it would work! I'd like to see a dude try that and not get thrown in jail!

My P sees 7200 at least 4 times a day (53K on the clock now), same for the MB (6K but large displacement v8, 85K miles trouble free over 9 years) and the BMW (6800 Straight 6) whenever I drive them. If that bites me in the *** someday at least I enjoyed them. They are maintained by dealer while under warranty, me after that, get oil when it starts to smell, never leak a drop of it any of them, and they all run like sewing machines so far. This is in high density urban environs. I'm not advocating the "keep it over 4K" nonsense, that's plain craziness and will absolutely cause undue stress (that's continuous load, which requires very different design considerations in a reciprocating motor), but you need to open that throttle up a few times a day and wind it up to redline. I will NEVER understand people who baby commodity vehicles to the extent of short shifting, OK I understand on an original 550 Spyder, but it's inexcusable on a modern 911. If it breaks, you can fix it, or insure your risk. Have fun out there. I do however avoid potholes like a retiree.

The majority of the phone calls I field come from Drivers that state that they were driving 55-60 MPH when the incident occurred that took them off the road and drained their wallet. And I have been able to data log and observe why this is.. I log details of every phone chat I have with those who have experienced engine failures.. In 3-4 more years we should have enough trend data to substantiate a rather wild hypothesis that would be met today with vast opposition. This year I have had two calls from thos who have experienced IMS failures on the track, I have had more calls than that from those that have experienced broken crankshafts during track activities. Last week alone I chatted with 6 drivers that experienced IMS failures while on the street.. Two more today that occurred over the weekend.

Recent shop visit had a C4s that had an IMS failure. It had been sitting for an entire afghanistan deployment and failed pretty much as soon as he started driving it again. My 325Ci gets redlined pretty much every shift and 6.5 years and 104k miles later it still runs like new. Uses a little bit of oil mind you but it runs clean! You have to drive that car like that because it is so slow, though.

One of my test cars saw 74,000 in range one and 53,000 rev counts in stage two before I pulled it's IMS bearing and retrofitted it earlier this year.. That bearing was in near perfect condition.. After I'd sometimes drive it 5 miles in second gear against the (elevated) rev limiter at 7,700 RPM.. I fired it up on a 9 degree morning and held it WOT for 11 minutes solid. My Wife drove it to work today.... Its one of the best running M96s I have ever experienced. But if I blow an engine its a tax write off and a true learning experience..

so you agree with the OP's statement Jake? (with a grain of salt) I posted over the last year that I like to run in lower gears and keep the RPM's higher... some laughed, but I have owned many bugs and found them to run much better if I kept the rpm higher and the low rpm "pulls" to a minimum... seemed like running faster and smoother was eairer on them than running slower and kind of what I considered to be "lugging" -

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Wow! I liked hearing that. My P car had 50k range 1 events in the computer, but no range 2. I'm hoping that that helped it out. At clutch time, I'm going to pop in one of the LN/Flat6 bearings just to be on the safe side.

Cool.. I won't directly concur with what the OP posted, because as soon as I do I'll get emails and PMs stating that more RPM can never mean less wear. In my 996 I don't use 6th gear till 75 MPH and don't use 5th in my Boxster until I can maintain above 2,800 RPM.

fair enough - thanks

I think it's interesting that this suggests that 15,000 mile oil changes were stupid.

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Ha! "Don't you know this car is a ticking time bomb! If I slow down below 55, it'll blow!!"

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No matter how often you change the oil in the engine- The IMS bearing will see ZERO of it! The IMS bearing is not a component thats internally lubricated by the engine's oil, it is permanently lubricated when manufactured.. Thats it's biggest downfall. The engines that I build have a maximum of a 5,000 mile oil change interval..

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The retrofit's bearings are splash lubed, though, correct? Can you comment on whether oiling is affected by rpms in that case?

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welcome back big guy!

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Thanks.

interesting. I had my car on the track at 1100 miles on the odometer, and I for one definitely cannot be blamed for not driving it hard. I am one of those who is at 3-4K rpms or more. I don't lug it but there is no way I baby the car. I didn't spend 90K to preserve it and have it smell nice. I will say that not only do I do the requisite fluid changes above and beyond the "schedule", but I do 2 brake flushes per year and that lifetime coolant? I purge that entire system every 30K miles, differential fluids, etc. My mechanic just told me yesterday that he was surprised at my motor's lack of any corrosion so that's a good additional benefit of doing aggressive maintainence if you drive it hard (and even if you don't). I don't have IMS failure but better to be safe than sorry. I had my wake up call and "luckily" it was the valve seat.

from 1st post: An oil with extreme pressure additives like Moly might also further assist in increasing bearing life. If the Ims bearing sees no engine oil, how does the above comment help with bearing life? Question to Jake

The IMSR bearing is a splash lubricated component.. The area surrounding the IMS drive is flooded with oil at pretty much any RPM, hence the reason for IMS/ RMS leakages... We took advantage of that. With the bearing in factory sealed form different engine oils can only effect the lubricity of the remainder of the valve train components through friction reduction.. Valve train components that see friction reduction also reduces the load placed on the IMS bearing, which COULD help it live a few days longer. Other than that I make no comments on oil selections, way too many people get their panties in a wad over this subject!

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While that is impressive one can't apply that engine's treatment to a population of engines. Otherwise identical engines off the same line will behave differently. Some use no oil. Some use alot. Some run and run and run with treatment and servicing that would be judged abuse. (WOT at cold operating temperature is abuse. That the engine survived is impressive to be sure.) And some blow up, soon, way too soon. Years ago when I was using Weber carbs I came across a tuning book for Webers written by an Englishman -- wish I could remember his name and the title of the book and wish I'd kept the book -- who would have liked to had the time and opportunity to tear into otherwise identical engines that were on either end of the performance spectrum to see if he could learn just what the differences were and which ones were significant in order to duplicate the differences and improve all engines. One has to be careful in condemning a population of engines based on the horrible results of a few engines, and neither should one apply to a population of engines the sort of treatment that apparently one exceptional engine is able to tolerate with no apparent ill effects. At least so far. Sincerely, Macster.

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In this context, it's interesting to note that M96 engines were hand-assembled on a bench, IIRC.

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By drunks.

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G�nter was drunk. He built yours. Deiter built mine. He was on the wagon, plus he got laid the night before.

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From what seems to fail in the M96, I think the guys who cast the blocks were drunk.

And the friggin idiot engineer that used a sealed bearing! WTH? My kingdom for plain bearings.....

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What if the guys running the casting equipment were actually drinking on the job? Beer has lots of carbonation and the early boxsters suffered from porous cases? Somebody spilled some beer into the mold!!!!

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Or even a friction bearing would of been better!

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But, let us not forget that these "few engines" consist upwards of 10% of all M96 motors. That's far from a 'few' in my book. (I'm trying to find where I saw that stat, so you won't think I'm pulling data out of my a**! But I remember it was on a Porsche-affiliated site. Scary.)

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There is nowhere near 10% of M96 engines that have failed. Even 1% would be a high estimate. You will find many sites claiming higher failures, but most often they are the ones who sell a fix or other product claiming it will save your engine from destruction.

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I truly hope that's the case!! But remember too that all Boxters are potentially at risk, which is where I first heard about this issue from, actually. That opens up the data pool quite a bit as compared to 911-only. FWIW, I do remember the site that I saw it on had no affiliation with a repair part or services to do it. I always take with a grain of salt data that is coming from a place that supports their own agenda. That was not the case here. Regardless, I just want to say to everyone, Long Live Your IMS!!

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If your talking of IMS bearing failure, I doubt there has even been 1/4% and that is being generous to those selling the repair kits. Remember, potential and reality are two differnt things. Potential is used to create fear and generates sales. Reality is the 99%+ of these engines that have no problems and people just enjoy their car and don't worry about potential problems. So what is this site that claims 10% failure rate?

I have applied the IMSR to SAVE more failed/failing engines than for preventives. No one knows the percentages because there are no positive numbers of the production of the M96 engine that have been released. The percentages of failures doesn't matter.. What does matter are the three phone chats I have lined up this evening with those who have experienced failures since last Friday and want to know what they can do. I have decided to start asking the people that I have conference calls with if I can record the conversation so it can be edited and posted... You'll see that its the same story over and over again.

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1999Porsche911, just as you want to see my data for 10% failure rate (I'm still searching for the original link!), I too want to see YOUR data for <1/4% failure rate. Since neither of us can give concrete numbers, we're both speculating, and so we can agree to both be right. Jake is right, we'll probably never know the true numbers. They might not be as high as 10%, but I believe them to be higher than 1/4%. FWIW, here's another link I found on the EXTREME high end of speculation. I don't think it's anywhere near 27% (Lol!!). http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wil...35&PID=3179979

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Don't have any data, but we know that well over 150,000 M96 engines were produced, so unless you can show me 15,000 of those engines that failed because of an IMS bearing, I guess, we'll never know.

Listen, it's all a moot point when you compare our engines so called 10% failure rate with some Chrysler vehicles auto box failure rate of near on 100% over a six year period. I have a friend that was (now with Magna) an engineer at the Bramalea plant that said one out of every four trannies (Mexican built) leaked or failed outright right off the line - the rest elsewhere. I don't see people talking about class action lawsuits about these POS vehicles yet I read where a few people are *thinking* of suing Porsche over the IMS issue. I doubt the 10% failure number (Excellence Mag has it at 20%-100%!! which is BS) and it seems to me that many, many other car makers have had far more issues with crap models then Porsche has had with the 986/996 designs. I've met quite a few 996 owners in the last year and have yet to meet ONE that has had an IMS failure. We've all *heard* of them but in my straw poll, haven't seen any. The only thing 996 owners NEED to know is WHAT causes these failures which would lead us to perhaps change the conditions we drive under, type of driving and or service we could do to 'reduce' the odd's of a failure. Thats where Jake might be able to help out as he seems to be one of the few people interested in knowing the 'why' part of these failures. Porsche no longer have a great interest here as most of the M96's should be soon out of coverage, perhaps CPO units are left. Unless we know if it is too hard of driving, not enough driving, too hot a climate, too cold a climate, too many over rev's , not enough oil changes, not the right oil or not enough church going - some of us will drive around feeling as if the next mile is the last mile. I don't subcribe to the worry wort state - as much as it pains me to say this - it is JUST a car and nothing else. I drove by a guy in a crashed car (roof caved in) yesterday, and the EMT's didn't look to be in too much of a hurry - M96 issues are nothing in the big picture of life. I just drive my car and enjoy it.

the amount of idle speculation and misinformation that is concentrated in that link (in the comments) is appalling

Drive and enjoy the car.. Or apply a preventive IMSR and enjoy the car. It's personal preference kinda thing. This time last year this topic didn't exist because the technology didn't exist as it lacked a critical aspect... Be glad that we can have this conversation about whether or not the bearing could be replaced. The engines that have been saved this year with the technology would have been in the core pile somewhere as pure junk... Porsche wuld have been a bit richer. I consider the ability to have this type of debate a pure success for the efforts of my company and LN Engineering.

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Couldn't agree more. It's always good to have choices. Nice work.

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True enough, but you gotta enjoy this remark...

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+1

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+2

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Manual shift drivers tend to shift into high gear to soon. The excess heat is created in the bearing when the car is driven with high loads at low rpm. Something a, drive like you stole it driver is less likely to do.