Still Having Brake Issues at track

....fresh motul before the event. Massive 997 turbo brake ducts added on. Mintex ceramic pads with plenty of wear (ware?) life left on them. ditto for the rotors. SS lines installed. After the first session of the day my brakes got all mushy. Is it possible that its not my fluid which is boiling over, but rather the brake pads are just not suitable for track duty, overheat and are not gripping the rotor leading to the increase in stopping distances and somewhat mushy pedal?

I'm not aware of a Mintex pad that I'd be confident in running at the track...I'd think that's your issue though I really know no history on it. I run Mintex (red box I think) on the street and I think they suck even as a street pad, wouldn't even consider running them at the track. I even found the OEM pads to be acceptabe to a point on the track as long as I was on street tires, never bothered to try them on track tires though as I'm sure they wouldn't be up to the task. Andy

yeah man. when i had stock pads (or whatever was on the car when i got it...99% sure they were stock), the car always stopped with authority and they lasted for evarrr. i'm thinking of just going back to stock, but i'm trying to get some other opinions on what the source of the problem might be.

Try Pagid track pads. I use RS-19 (yellow) fronts and black (RS-14) rears. No fade, even with stock lines and ATE blue fluid.

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+1 Sounds like a pad issue

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Well my opnion is the stockers are good to a point...but fall short when you start to get pleanty of track experience or go to better tires. At that point you really need to get into a dedicated track pad. I tracked my car for a full season on the stock (pagid) pads and street tires to learn the behavior of the car before upgrading. Running Pagid orange / black combo now and it works very well with "better" tires.

+1 the stock pads do work amazingly well up to a point. Also, if your pad (any kind) is getting thin then their perf will drop off significantly. Likely the mintex pad material is not up to the task.

i will be using street tires for the forseeable future (no planned switch to R's for now). options to consider for me would be: 1) return to stock pads. 2) pagid blues? 3) performance friction 01's? need something that is good at the track but acceptable for the street as well.

Look up EBC YellowStuff R. I am really likeing these right now. Somewhere in between the Pagid Yellow and Pagid Black for level of friction.. .6 if I recall. I recently switched over to these from the Pagid ORange, Yellow and Blacks and am surprisingly happy. These are very popular in European racing classes. BTW: they cost about 1/2 what the Pagid's run. I can't comment on longevity yet since I have only had them a few weeks so far. EDIT: just make sure you get the DM1793 material and not the outdated 1626 that may be sitting around.

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are you using mintex c-tech, or regular mintex? the regular line is really not up to snuff for track duty. the c-tech are ok in back, but up front i'd go for pagid, hawk HT-10, or PFC-01's. the right pads really make a HUGE difference.

hummm...go back to the stock pads...Blue's are old technology and the dust is corrosvie to wheels. I ran PFC-01's on my M3 and loved them but they are noisy and not great when cold. Maybe see if Hawk makes a HP+ (PLUS NOT "S") for our cars. That's a pretty good "tweener" pad...again, not sure how it compares to the stock pads however.

thanks. i will look at going back to stock pads for now (though if the price is close enuff to PFC01's i might give em a try, cold performance not too much of an issue as the track i track most often at is extremly unkind to brakes and tires.) how should i properly rebed the new pads to the rotors? is that something that even stock pads need?

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Interrested to hear more on the new pad material. My brother used these on his E36 M3 (last year but I have no clue what compound) and despite the fact that they felt good when we did our bedding we could never get them to work right...ever. The wierd part was the car had pleanty of pedal, never overheated anything, but simply never stopped. It's like they glazed and never came back no matter what we did....but again we never lost pedal and they had pleanty of temp, just no stopping power. They are stupid cheap and maybe the change fixed that issue? Andy

Andy, Yeah they are stupid cheap, I put them on w/ fresh rotors up front so no bedding issues. Sounds either like they glazed on the highspots or it was green fade like you get with Pagid oranges. I'll definitely be posting about them real soon.

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Dunno...we tried everything we could think of (sanding, re-bedding, new rotors) over 3 events and the pads never had any bite. Maybe it was the old compound that you speak of or something goofy with that set. On paper they shoudl make for a good-enough pad..and for the money you almost can't go wrong. Can't wait to hear more on them as you get some more use to see a fresh perspective.

Omar, I have no opinion on the pads you are using but I would be a little surprised if they are causing your soft pedal. I think it�s more likely that somewhere in all the work you�ve done you ended up with a bunch of air in your system. Or maybe even an air leak somewhere. I�d have a professional change your brake fluid and check for leaks. BTW, bed your pads anytime you change pads, rotors or both. This is more important with race pads like Pagid but there is not reason not to do it with stock pads as well. Good luck, Jim

What track? Just a thought, how are you braking? I have never had brake issues with my 964 (2), 944 when I had it, or my 996. If you have good braking technique, then I would agree to bleed the system before you go buying pads.

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jim, system was freshly bled and refilled by a local porsche indy of excellent repute just before the event.

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its a local track just outside toronto. i don' think my braking technique is particularily bad....i'm not even on the brakes that much as i try to keep as much momentum thru the corners. it is a very short, flat, tight track tho, one which favors miatas and hondas and other sport compacts very heavily.

Omar, what is the operating range for the Mintex pads? I agree with Jim B about the possibility of air in the system. The pads should be getting enough cool air with the turbo ducts, but you may be exceeding their temp range and therefore getting brake fade. Of course, it could be due to operator error, too. What run group are you in? Have you spoken with people at the track about this? As for the pads, I've been using Hawk HT10's and DTC 60's. The brakes feel great until the pads wear down. Steve

If by mushy pedal you mean you started to notice a 'long' pedal or more travel, then its a fluid issue. Pad fad will still present a good pedal, just not enough mu.

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i don't believe that i'm too far off line or off braking points on the course. i don't run with the PCA but i have had instructed time from drivers with much more experience around the track in question. I'm certainly not the fastest but i'm not "catastrophic" either...unless i'm mad, then tires will feel my wrath.

>> Pad fad will still present a good pedal, just not enough mu. Also to prevent all the guessing...you should get some data on what's going on. Get some rotor paint or temp labels. ($60) From there you'll know at least which pads are outside your operating range and can also measure your brake cooling efficiency... might be too COLD for some of the pads you're trying. We use Hawk HP+ on the track but man to do they HOWL on the street which is why I came across this thread...still looking for the best compromise. Also the '99 has an early ABS system which isn't track friendly. Are you getting into the ABS? Do you find the brakes get "mushy" after ABS engagement? If you go like a bat out of hell on the first lap and 'stand it on it's nose' is it better than after 5 laps?

I find you soft pedal issue interesting. I had a 40th Anniversary and drove it regularly at the race track. I kept the brakes stock and experienced brake fade on only one occasion. The track temp was about 120 F and I was chasing a 965. I was very impressed with the performance of the stock system. I would take your car back to your mechanic and have him re-bleed the system. I like Pagid pads. The RS19 and 29 are their endurance pads. They are easy on rotors. PFC 97's are what I have on my 911SC and I really like them.

went back to stock pagid S sport pads and no problems. car brakes with authority lap after lap. i don't get into the ABS...maybe occasionally for trail braking, otherwise i don't really have a need to brake that hard, i'm trying to practice carrying momentum.

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i was having the same problems. went with pagid blue wich were better than stock, but ended up warping my rotors, (my tech thinks they were defective from the start). I ended up putting gt3 brakes on with pagid yellow. worked great on the track but loud as hell on the street. added the shims and most of the noise went away.

Well, everyone's got an opinion. I agree with the folks that say that the pads are your problem. BTW, too much ducting can be bad, as the brakes may not get hot enough, especially if you go to a dedicated race pad. Seriously, I've seen guys block off the ducting in the Winter. I've used PF in the past and the last set I had were the 01 formulation. They were excellent for the track, but not good on the street (poor cold performance) and dusted something awful. Probably killed my rotors as well... Poor cold performance means that if the car is cold, the brakes are cold and you press that middle pedal, little to nothing happens. This is bad. Don't drive race pads on the street. Especially if you live somewhere like Canada and have lots of brake ducting. Oh - and as easy as it is to swap pads on a Porsche, you have no excuse for not doing so. Put the OE pads back on when you're finished with your track weekend. HTH, Michael