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YOUR RESEARCHMore 996 bashing
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It really urked me that they used the same headlight shape on the boxter..........
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Air cooled reached its limits and so did the technology, be ready for change, just as we must go through with the latest and best product.
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As I said before, most of the changes made that I mention have little to do with limits of the air cooled platform (read 959, 917, etc..years earlier) and more to do with value engineering.
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You are right, Porsche had it right on with your heavier and slower car, we would all trade you in a heartbeat, then you woke up, then you changed your shorts......
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This it's on the 997 forum. Somehow
this
thread started off bashing the tailights of the new 997, and morphed into one focused on 996 headlights (a topic thoroughly beaten into the ground).
Us 996ers are the get-no-respect sandwich generation between the old 993 and the new 997. Purchase of a 996 is still the best sports car bargain in the world.
This is my first Porsche and it will always be my first. I won't own it forever, but I love every second I'm behind the wheel now. No matter what other sports cars are in my future, this one will provide the best memories, I'm sure of it. I'm damn proud of my 996.
Meh I would not worry about what someone else says. It didnt look like bashing too much either, just some people have a hate for the "fried egg" look head lamp. To each their own, Im sure there are an equal number who love it. Unless you bought your car to impress everyone I dont see the point in caring if you like it.
my .02
I love my 996. More importantly my wife loves it too. I don't compare it to my 2 993's because they are completely different animals. However, I will drive the 996 every day and would not be prepared to drive either of my 993's every day. There is a message there.
I for one could care less what anyone thinks of my car. I did not ask one person's opinion before I bought it and could care less what opinion they have now.
You see this somewhat even in the 996 ranks. Some newer model owners put down our "older" light style, not as nice interior, etc.
Aside from the occasional RMS problem I think the 996 is a great car. I love your forum and the technical talk that you guys exchange. That's why I spend a lot of time on this site.
Jay
i get hassled a bit in the "real world" at various car meet ups. always from the older guys with 993s. of course, in person, the bashing is much more polite. nothing like anonymity to add a little rudeness.
Aww come on the 997 guys have no beef with the 996 guys, they are just expressing a preference Personally I love the 997 but I always thought their round headlights were a little bit of a step backwards. I'd bet at some point in the future Porsche will give the headlights a more modern look again.
Having owned a bunch of different Porsches, the 996 is the only one that could have done 60,000 mostly trouble free miles in 3 years on top of the 40,000 the original owner had racked up. I loved all of the others, but none were as powerful, reliable, or comfortable as the 996. And I hope someday to be able to say the same thing about a 997. Each successive model is better than the last. I will admit the 993 does look a bit leaner and mean, but there is no comparison about the interior or the performance.
I would love to give my 996 a little brother sometime in the future if I decide to add a 993 to the garage. Then later on, when I buy a 997, my 996 will have a big brother to look up to. Hell, I might even bring a 944 red-headed step-child into the family. The jury is still out on our 924 cousin. Some believe they are better than the rest of the family. Others are loving the one they're with and enjoying what they have. We're all currently seeking therapy for our disorders.
To sum things up, I believe the whole "family" respects the progression of engineering excellence that we as Porsche owners are lucky enough to experience.
Each generation has qualities that the others don't...good and bad.
Just my 2 cents.
Teleman
river_cropped_sm.jpg
I agree with all above. Plus, let's face it - those of us who are forum-obsessed (like me) spend a great deal of time debating things 90% of the general public dont even think about. When I got my 911 most of my neighbors came by to tell me they thought the car was beautiful (many p-car owners as well). Not one asked if it was a 996 or 997, or any model other than a 911. Certainly "fried eggs" was never said. LOL. ( - well maybe that's because they were staring at the ****! 4S baby!)
My point is: we are such enthusiasts that we CAN discuss something so small as headlight shape and actually make it a pivotal issue. But in the end, to the rest of the world, the 996 is still a rediculously awesome car, which represents a moment in the evolution of the 911. Nothing more or less.
+1 No one has ever asked me what model number my car was. The vast majority of people only know one number: 911. That's it. If I mention 996, they have no idea what I'm talking about, their eyes just glaze over.
I could care less, so many awesome Porsche's have gotten a bad rap from the "elitist INTERNET scum" and before the internet..just plain old "elitist scum"
Do you know how many times I heard "poor mans Porsche" when I had my 951's? Please, the car was far from cheap and one (or 2) of the most satisfying cars I have ever owned. I could go one.
C'mon guys! You want to hear some real bashing? Head over to the Cayenne forum!
I'm actually planning to buy a 996 early next year, and I agree that it is a great value right now.
The bashing on the Cayenne forum is mostly by a few "rogue" members who had the earliest models and who now do it mostly out of fun/humor.
I think the reality is that most of the Cayenne owners really love their cars and the later models have very few problems.
I love my Cayenne, and my 993....Great mix of the new and the old.
the population of car meetups and the old guys who get up that early for them have very little to do with the shaping of popular opinion (which is what I meant by the real world, e.g. most people in mainstream culture).
Nobody normal will volunteer the difference between any 930 to current 911 regardless of vintage, they are all Porsches as far as people are concerned, and they either love them or hate them. Widebody, narrow, spoiler, bodykit, wheels, exhaust, every little thing we obsess over, nobody with a life cares.
I understand obsessing over minutiae in collectibles, old Ferraris and 550 Spyders, but mass produced sports coupes? It's something that only really happens on the internet and in the imagination of a diehard antiquarian.
Just remember what Chris Rock once said. Everybody loves to hate the best. They hate the Yankees. They hate the Lakers. They hate the Patriots. But nobody ever hates the Milwaukee Brewers.
I'd hate the 996 if I spent all that money on a new base 997.
Then find out that it only only 5 hp more and actually slower from 0-62 mph then the 996. But hey it has a great interior. lol
Very true. My Cayenne has been great, and I'm really happy I own it. Porsche motoring for the whole family!
That being said, I'm still looking forward to buying a 911... probably a 996.
I have to be honest, I have bashed the Cayenne in the past because I did not love the looks and was never thrilled about Porsche being in the SUV business but fact is I have driven them and like everything Porsche's does I think it's the best of the best! I may own one some day for the wife's ride.
I think the GTS model is really sharp!
I've got to say, I don't see the 997 as being the big advance over the 996 that many see it as. It may be a bit better looking both inside and out but this is a matter of opinion. The "big" problems (RMS, IMS) weren't really addressed as we still see 997's with similar problems and will continue to as these cars age. Performance advantage? 997 Carrera: 325HP, 996 Carrera: 320HP. 997 Carrera S: 355HP, 996 Carrera x-51: 345HP. I see the 996 to be quite a bargain these days and can't really justify the price difference between the two. Not trying to start a war as I love almost all Porsches.
I like the GTS too.
Like you - I'd rather be driving a 911 than a Cayenne, but it made the most sense for the family at the time. Compared to any other SUV, it is an easy choice.
Our HUMMER is leased, so as soon as that goes back to GM (next year), my wife is taking the Cayenne and I am planning to buy a 996.
I had a 2004 996 as my first 911. I loved almost every moment of it. there was that engine grenade issue at 5k miles that kinda spoiled some of it for me, but overall i loved the car. People like to bash itas sort of the "ugly duckling" 911, but i love it's looks.
I NEVER liked the headlights on my 996, so I changed them as soon as I found a product that I liked. I put these on in 2002 or so, and they have held up very well. I still prefer them to the "boxter look"
From more than 10 or so feet away the seams are not visible. Even WITH the seams I like them better........
It really urked me that they used the same headlight shape on the boxter.......... I thought that was a VERY stupid marketing idea.
I bought my '04 996 X51 with 6k miles on it, from the dealer, under CPO extended warranty, for a very good price, and selected it over the new-at-the-time 997. When I brought it home, my neighbor came over and said he'd had a 993 but got rid of it because using the a/c would cause engine overheating at idle during the hot TX summers. When he found out the 996 is water-cooled, he said it was nice to see Porsche catching up with the rest of the automotive world.
The GT-1, which debuted in 1995, had the classic 993 headlights. It was competitive for a couple of years, but Mercedes stomped it in 1997 with both the CLK-GTR and the McLaren GTR. So for 1998, Porsche revamped the car, including the runny egg headlights and a sequential gearbox. Although slower than both the Mercs and the Toyota GT-One, it won LeMans outright because it was reliable. Or maybe it was the headlights.
In a thread where posters shared their dislike of the 996 headlights, and then that gets termed "996-bashing?" I'd say some folks are a little too sensitive. IIRC, that thread was purely about the styling aesthetics, with no mention of performance or value. I'd think even car enthusiasts have distinct tastes when it comes to design, no matter how trivial the design aspect may be. I've had both a 986 and 996, and I do much prefer the 997's headlights, interior layout, and more visually pronounced hips. Does that automatically make me a 996-basher?
I may not be fond of my son's spikey-hair, punk-rock get-up that's rather different from his brother, but that doesn't mean I'd think less of him or that he isn't my son.
The 996 might have broken "tradition" with the headlights, but what is the big deal when a company that makes the best sports cars out there (IMO) is only progressing? Honestly, I think the MKII 996 headlights look more modern, sporty, & agressive than the round headlights... & in the "real world," where people don't know what a 993, 996, or 997 is, I've received many more compliments on my 996 than my brother does with his 997S when they're parked side by side. People have even asked if his 997 is an OLDER model than mine! lol. He's even admitted that he likes the MKII 996 headlights more, & we both agree that the perfect aesthetic mix would be the 997's sleeker look with it's hips, tail lights, & everything, but with 996 headlights. Also, most importantly, he's driven my car & says you can't even feel a real difference in power, handling, etc. They're almost the same. Considering the small advantage the 997 has over the 996, the 996 really is the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK! ... I'm not bashing the 997 or anything, I'd like to actually own one in the near future & I personally think ALL Porsches are great. They all have their good & bad. Although MOSTLY GOOD. Everyone should stop bashing eachother & realize how lucky we all are to own the cars we do
Jeep went through the same headlight fiasco when they went to the YJ series that had square headlights, CJ fans would talk about how real jeeps have round headlights yadda yadda.. then with the TJ model they went back to round ones. either way, they were all wranglers at heart.
same holds true for porsche, 930, 964, 993, 996, 997, whatever, they are all 911's and thats all that matters.
as long as my current new job holds strong, i plan on boarding the 996 bandwagon if the opportunity presents itself
I still just don't get the "same as boxster" thing. How exactly does that matter? it's not even historically relevant or unique!
The 959, 993 and 968 all had practically the same style lamps (at rest, obviously 968 popped up when active), in fact the flatnose (not slant) turbo S 964s, which are as expensive, rare and extreme as they come, have the front clip basically straight off the 968, meaning you paid 60K on top of 100K in 1994 dollars for the same front end as the red headed stepchild front engined base model. And any REAL turbo freak knows that's the last real 911 turbo right (rwd/air-oil/single snail)? yeesh. Who cares if it shares parts?
It's this ongoing, ridiculous nonsense that makes me wonder where all the free time and inferiority complexes come from. Tips are not Porsches, Cabs are not Porsches, 944s, 914s, boxsters, 912s, Cayennes. If you give any credence to this point of view, you'd have to believe the company to be near criminal for pawning off all of this fake merchandise on the public since its inception. But it's obviously not the case, all these contentious vehicles seem to come from Porsche factories, engineered by Porsche engineers, supported by Porsche clubs. I think that makes them all Porsches, as far as Porsche are concerned.
I have a buddy who rationalized his decision not to purchase a lamborghini by criticizing the Audi switchgear and nav system. Sure beats the heck out of the chrysler switchgear and stock Alpine they had for the past 15 years!
Hans, while I don't necessarily agree with all the griping, I can see why some may feel that way about the Porsche "step-children." Imagine if Maranello were to put out an SUV, or Chevy churns out an AWD Corvette, or a FWD econobox joins the ultimate-driving-machine line-up, what would their purists say?
I hear ya Charlie I really do (and I'm not a Cayenne fan by any stretch, except for the turbo). This is a long response but once I started typing I couldn't stop! So pardon my rant:
I think that purists can absolutely help a company remain accountable and true to a certain ethic which might otherwise be lost due to financial pressure or the relentless pursuit of profits. I'm just a little frustrated by how the purists in our case seem to limit the company from making serious progress in the performance department against the corvette, nissan, ferrari et al. In the 70s a 911 turbo ran to 100mph faster than practically anything on earth, by a wide margin really, stopped on a dime, and 25 years later was still hewn from an ingot of steel solid. A world beater, a freak, a marvel of engineering. Today, a hopped up nissan will run circles around us, and a Cayman S is faster than a standard Carrera pound for pound in many ways (not all). Just look at converted 3.6 and 3.8 986/987, those things are fast in all directions.
So instead of being free to make the highest performing, best handling, most intelligently engineered vehicles possible, Porsche "purists" have enabled the company to remain reverential to the past, to raise prices without raising the bar, and over the past 5 years I really must say the competition really caught up, and not just in a straight line either.
Whenever I see a Carrera GT, I can say honestly that it's like a big "built" boxster, and everyone will cringe. But it's true, ultimate performance means mid-engine, big motor, big brakes, sequential or twin clutch box. That's race tech, that's what makes the supercar world go around. I'm not saying we need to get rid of the 911, it's a perfect roadcar, and I really, really love my 996, but the reason I didn't just buy a 997 was that it wasn't any faster, and to my rather normal eye didn't look THAT much better or different. I can't tell you how many times I'm parked next to a black 997 and people ask if mine's the new car (might be the shine!). Happened 4 nights ago on the upper east side here, and used to happen all the time in LA of all places when I kept the car there.
Now think about the other guys. C4 / C5 / C6 vette? are you kidding me? E36 / E46 / E92 M3s? r32 / r33 / r34 / r35 skyline? 348 / 355 / 360 / 430? These brands all stayed true to their design ideals and the series are all unmistakably vettes/M3/GTRs/ferraris, they are the halo or in ferrari's case "race" cars of their respective manufacturers. Yet each of these companies has managed to make HUGE leaps in performance, fit, finish and amenity with each passing generation, all very recently, without compromising on their brand or model identity or RESALE value. The arguments regarding weight, redline etc are moot now, simply hearking back to the days when 911s weighed 2400 lbs. All of these cars in their most modern iterations are now lapping you favorite racecourse faster than even the heaviest iron in the 911 range, and even the 7.0 liter pushrod vette revs deep into 7000 rpm range
Instead, and because of good old fashioned nonsense like this headlight debacle, we get an average sales price of 100K on the 997Mk1 for a car which is slower than its predecessor. And round lamp housings. Hooray. They didn't have to make the car faster. They jut needed to change the lamp housings. No new motor, instead 5 questionable bhp and an interior shared with (gasp) the 987. Hooray for beer.
Now with 997 Mk2, a bit more power they tell us, finally the PDK, but now at nearly 100bhp/liter, is there much more room in the 3.6 ? or the 3.8? Is it "Faster Enough" yet? No one asks that question, only complains about the rear taillights now. Rear taillights. I couldn't tell you if mine even work, and would have real trouble drawing them from memory. I'll admit I am not a huge fan of the rear photos I saw, but whatever, if 997.2 was super fast or they finally, really, we seriously promise this time guys fixed the major reliability issues, sure I'd buy one.
I have to say, the one visual thing I really do like in the 997 range is the wacky front bumper cover on that GT3RS, I would put one of those on my car in a heartbeat if it doesn't look horsey to have a 996 with the lows on the wings. Of course I wound up liking the 997TT wheels. And I really love the Turbo S decklid from the 993.
I'm telling you Tim, supercharge that thing! you'll surprise many a fried egg and round eye!
993 and prior 911's are handmade-have legendary "solid" build quality that went away with the 996. We are talking much more than a headlight change. Air-cooled, dry sump to water cooled wet-sump. Race proven bottom end to "engineered to price point" bottom end. 5 distinct dash gauges around for decades going to a cost-reduced cluster. No nonsense functional "no cup holders" interior to cup holders and GT style interior. I could go on...
Some say this is bashing, I like to say that I am pointing out differences.
You are right, Porsche had it right on with your heavier and slower car, we would all trade you in a heartbeat, then you woke up, then you changed your shorts......
Air cooled reached its limits and so did the technology, be ready for change, just as we must go through with the latest and best product.
and...... you suck.... j/k. don't be hating....
As I said before, most of the changes made that I mention have little to do with limits of the air cooled platform (read 959, 917, etc..years earlier) and more to do with value engineering. Read: More pressures outside of design/engineering forcing more of what goes into the car than anything else. I am not going to be blind to fact that my car is 11 years old, heavier, slower-(you'd be surprised actually) it should be at this point. There was no further development in the platform.
Dude... the 993, the Boxster and the 996 were sharing the same assembly line and the same assembly people back in the day. Get off your high horse and know the facts rather than by your emotions... I understand that the 993 (and any other model) guys are passionate about their cars... but so are we.
I have no interest in joining this little lovefest but the 959 was water cooled wasn't it?. I think the 917s were air cooled but as I recall Porsche switched to water cooled heads sometime during the 962 run and today all Porsche race cars including the cups, RSRs and RS Spyders are water cooled.
It had to do with emissions as well, and the air-cooled motor just couldn't cut it anymore. The 996 was torsionally stiffer (about 30%) than the993, and has a better power to weight ratio. Oh, and mine doesn't have a cupholder either.
i love my 996, but wish that porsche would not have inlcuded all those dam plastic interior trim pieces. for a car with such heritage and cost, they should have definately done better.
All the plastic inside is my only real complaint about the car. I guess that's why you see so many changing out pieces to CF, painting this and that, but I'm not a real fan of that look either. I think the interior of the 996 is a lot better than the clunky interior of the 993 though.
I wish we still had the vinyl interiors: that's what makes a true porsche!! ... and I wish we still had pressed steel wheels, 130hp, etc..... In fact, I wish my car had 4 electric motors driving each wheel, like the original Lohner of the 1890's.... That's the only true porsche!! this 911 crap isn't true to Porsche's heritage....
Coincidentally, I love how a bunch of armchair racers know more about what makes a "True Porsche" than the Porsche management, many of whom are actually related to Ferdinand Porsche.
As far as the 996v997, when the editors of car&driver were asked to choose the 1 car that they would have if they could only have one car for the rest of their life, they chose the 996..... over the 997.
And who has cupholders? I don't have one.... I'd like one though! make it RedBull sized too!
I agree with you 100%. Whenever I zoom by a 993, everytime a sexy lady gets excited in my car, everytime someone tells me I have a sweet ride & that it looks much nicer than my bro's 997S & his friend's 993, it makes me think, "Is all of this worth it?? I mean look at my damn cluster gauges & cup holders!" & I regret buying the 996 over a 993.
That's exactly the attitude that earns bad rep for Porsche owners.
It's also typical of the forced ignorance of those stuck in the past. It's the same as those in the past who saw seat belts as intrusive, electronic ignition control as unpure, ABS as the car controlling the driver.
The 996/997 are improvements on the 993, the evolution to a higher plane. They are built better, stronger, faster, more reliable, and, dare I say better looking. You are like the cro-magnon man saying buck teeth, small brains, low set ears are better. The 993 is only nostalgia, history, something loved but eventually left behind.
Get over the ignorance, dude. Even if you and others like you don't, I don't really care. I love my 996, I love the 993.
First off, I love my 996. I am very pleased with it. I will certainly give you that the 996 is the evolution of the 911 and that it's faster. Perhaps more reliable and clearly a major step forward for the 911 and in my opinion a true 911 BUT better built? I am not so sure. My old 86 is a tank, the materials are better and just the way the doors and trunk close is far better than any modern Porsche I have owned.
The 993 may be nostalgia but something to be left behind? I wont ever knock someone for choosing a 993, 911 or a pre 74 as their ride because thats where their passion may be.
Is this thread STILL going??
I first fell in love in 1979 with the 911 SC Targa and dreamed of owning a Porsche ever since I saw that car in the showroom. It took me nearly 30 years to figure out that it isn't that hard to just buy one... Now I kick myself for not buying it earlier. I have a 99' 996 C2 and like many others love every second I drive it.
I don't BASH any Porsches.. its someone's dream car. I have opened my windows in the rain to listen to Porsche drivers go by for 30 years. 914's 924's 944's 928's 930's and 911's in all years and flavors. I live in a very wealthy part of the northwest where its not uncommon to see many a day. I see GT2's and GT3's and on some occasions GT's. No matter how cheap or how expensive, no matter how shiny or dull, each and every one is in fact a Porsche.....
Thanks for keeping it going, keep your dream alive and don't kick someone because their dream is not the same as yours.
I like what someone said, ~ its my first Porsche, not my last, and it will always hold the best memories for me ~ I hope to buy something really fantastic someday, in fact I am after the 2007 Arctic gold Targa 4S... but it is still out of reach for me. No matter, I have a fantastic 996 and like many others, I am proud of it...
Ed
