FSI/RND/LN Engine Durability/Longevity?

It would seem the consensus is the Raby/Navarro combo is the Gold Standard for M96 engines. I have no experience with either and no reason to doubt their products, services and engineering prowess. I am curious, however; how many have run these engines well past 100k miles and what has been your experience? Much ado has been made about the fragile M96 time bomb with its �service item� IMS bearing and fragile scoring-prone cylinders but my example has done 115k miles with its original IMS bearing and only trace precursor bore scoring. How long will it run before it grenades? Only time will tell� So when I debate opening my wallet to alleviate the sleepless nights and cold sweats of M96 anxiety I have to ask: �what am I buying?� With my tens of thousands of dollars? By the vendors� own admission the $800 IMS Retrofit is a 50k mile life limited part. The only real �solution� is the $1,800 IMS Solution. How long do Nickies and J&E pistons last? There�s no such thing as forever when it comes to machines. So I ask those with experience: How many have run these engines well past 100k and beyond? Are there any known failures of these parts and processes? It�s understood usage and maintenance practices are a huge part of the equation. For those who have progressed past Denial, Acceptance, and Writing the Check, how are you all sleeping at night?

Wait till it goes pop if the car is worth it to you then fix it to what you can afford I have a 99 with 103k when it goes pop I’ll cry but value before and after is my only factoring

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That�s an excellent philosophy! I may have been less than clear in my original post. Im not talking about our original engines as they came from the factory. I�m asking those who have invested in FSI and LN products if they have had any known failures and what type of longevity they expect to get from their FSI/RND engines and LN products.

Interested in the responses�. I just recently got my Stage II 4.0 and it has been excellent so far. So I�m no position to comment on durability, but I�ve have been extremely pleased with the process and the motor so far in the 2500 miles or so I have driven. From my experience in conversations with FSI and other FSI engine owners, as long as you follow maintenance recommendations and protocols it seems like from others experiences that as long you do those things and are honest and up front, Jake and FSI crew have supported original engine owners above and beyond what most would expect. Like anything mechanical nothing will last forever, just last as long as you care for it. They have built these engines addressing the known shortcomings and modes of faliure. I cannot see how if you properly maintain this engine why it cannot make it to 100k miles under normal spirited driving conditions.

35k miles on my Stage II 3.8. UOAs fron Speediagnostics are great and an "engine health" test i did last year, with the manometer, impressed Porschetech so I see no reason it won't outlast me. Zero engine issues to date. And it's a freaking blast to drive!

I sleep very well at night and can't wait to drive the car in the morning. Turn the key, wait for the oil gauge to show me the level, start the engine, 1-2-3 fires, and drive off. No drama. Maybe I shouldn't be responding as I only have 8K on my 3.8 stage1. It's an amazing piece of work. I went with FSI because of the volume of work that Jake has published demonstrating his understanding of these engines. I expect this engine to last 200K miles +. And by the published understanding and the prescribed preventive maintenance, it will easily make it. I'll post back in 10-15 years when I get there. The maintenance plan is the same as any other plan. What other rebuild options exist that have the demonstrated understanding that FSI has? How much do they cost? How does the DIYer find these options? It seems you should open up the discussion to anyone that has had an engine rebuilt that has needed a 2nd rebuild. If you could collect data from a bunch of sources, the resulting table of information should show the value of one over the other very quickly.

My 2002 Boxster S 3.6 R51 engine was completed in late 2015 by FSI . Jake actually built my engine but all of his engine builders are top notch . My engine runs as well today as it did back when I got it . Mild mannered around town and an unleashed beast in the mountains . I sleep great at night . A few months ago my 3.8 Stage II was completed for my 1999 996 C4 . I have about 800 miles on her and she is running perfect . I am confident that all short comings of this engine series have been resolved in my two engines . I have the IMS Solution in both . I fully expect that both cars will outlive me .

9k miles in, zero complaints. A strict engine service timeline must be adhered to for the first 120k miles/12 years to ensure optimal operation which is completely expected. Components such as AOS, water pump, etc. are replaced at a relatively short timeframe compared to what the manual says or what the general consensus is. It's all about preservation and long-term reliability. I fully expect this engine to outlive my physical ability to drive a manual transmission sports car.

I don�t have a whole lot to add. My experience to this point has been great with FSI. Before I committed I search numerous forums and found no instances of failure. The design addresses most of the sort comings of the engine, so logic would say that reliability should be better. Obviously with such a small sample size you are less likely to find really high mile examples, but having watched how both Jake and Charles test other products before putting something to market I have no doubts that each tried their best to break these engines in numerous ways before actually marketing them. As for the comment alluding to the pain of writing the check, there wasn�t any for me. I don�t want to say that the $ I paid couldn�t have been used for something different, but it wasn�t $ that I �needed�. For this reason my perspective/worry is maybe a bit different, but I think you will find a lot of guys buying these engines are in a similar situation.

My FSI 4.0 has been in my car for 7 years and 50K+ miles and it is a beast. I maintain the car myself and have never had an issue with the motor. If I have questions I go to the Bat-phone and call Jake...........and I haven't talk to him in a while. That shows how well the motor is performing. As for the cost? It is all relative. We pay for things we enjoy and I enjoy the snot out of this thing. Did I mention it is a beast?

Stage II 4.0 in my 2002 installed April/2016. It is used solely for track duty running at Eagles Canyon, NCM, Barber, Motorsport Ranch Cresson, and Ozark Int'l. Raceway. Thus, it runs on a lot of different elevation and turn configurations. I've not had any engine issues. I remain very happy about my FSI choice. It is now back at FSI for a refresh/preventative maintenance to get prepped for the next 7 years. FSI earned my faith in their team and product. I've not run it 100K miles but it has run at full throttle for many track miles including long sessions and/or back to back sessions. Call me a Raby/FSI fan man!

Full disclosure, I have an engine in the build process. jake and FSI has been building engines for how long? Counting aircooled, 30 years? How many first hand negative, upset owners can you find? When doing my research for my car, I tried to find a negative review, someone that wasn�t happy. You can�t find them. You find a lot of people bitching about his process, his pricing, he won�t do this, or he said blah blah to me. None of that matters. I�ve reached out and talked to owners. Their opinion matters. I have found 100% satisfaction. Small sample size, but 100% is impressive. I do question the motivation behind the question. Especially in light of recent push on FB and forums by a couple of engine builders. And I haven�t read anything bad about them either, just that their methodology is different. Why aren�t they included in your questioning? cw

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In my experience with other car brands/forums even the best engine builders have 1 or 2 instances where things go sideways and you end up with a dissatisfied customer sharing their dissatisfaction. So to me in finding nothing said either there are zero issues with FSI builds OR there have been issues but FSI does such a good job dealing with them there is no dissatisfaction. Either way I was good with that.

2 years and approx 24K miles on my Stage I 3.4 (bumped to 3.6) M97.21 - so a bit shy of your 100K miles. Cylinders were showing early signs of scoring (65K miles on original engine) and I love this car. Read as much as I could online about the issues and considered a few options. Looked at doing a Nickies and rebuild myself but when adding up the cost of components, outside services, special tool rentals, etc. and considering Jake's 1 year warranty and my odds of screwing something up, it was cheaper (total cost) to have FSI do it all. Very happy with overall build and extra low-mid range torque - not a beast like the 4.0 but certainly enough to do what I want it to do. No issues with the build and regular maintenance per FSI recommendations have made this reliable Porsche a joy to own and drive. Obviously more miles and time, I think, will confirm my decision to go this rout.

I had an issue, not FSI's fault at all, yet they stood tall and all is good. You get what you pay for and in the case of FSI you get top quality and top customer serviced with no BS.

Stage II, 4.0 2005 997S - Unable to respond to your 100k mile question as I have less than 4000 miles on my FSI build but I can tell you that I maintain a perpetual smile on my face when driving the car since the completed FSI build. Also, I do sleep very well at night, unlike when the motor was stock and developed bore score at less than 45k miles. The car is special and it's hard to envision ever selling it. The motor is now amazingly refined and provides a level of power, torque, and smoothness that frankly should embarrass Porsche for releasing the production version. I see no reason to be concerned with engine life as long as the car is driven correctly, including on-track, and the maintenance protocols are followed. Is is not easy to get your hands on an FSI engine, including the long lead times and costs that may not be the least expensive when compared to other builders. However, once you have the opportunity to drive the completed project, you realize the wait is worth it and the cost is justified. I'm not aware of nor have I heard of dissatisfied FSI customers nor have I heard of any FSI engine failures. I'm sure that if issues did develop with an FSI engine that were attributed to the builder, FSI would step up and correct. Working with FSI was straight forward and drama free. With my background as supply chain director of a large aerospace manufacturer, I am familiar with the challenges of running a quality on-time manufacturing organization. I can tell you I was impressed with the focus, the pre-emptive planning, and the communications to ensure my car was completed on-time, especially during some of the worst of Covid. As a final comment, the original question should really be opened up to include not just FSI but all the rebuilders of these motors. There are many companies in this space providing this service but how many really understand these motors?

I have two FSI motors, a 3.8 Stage 1 with 12k Miles and a 4.0 Stage II with 4k miles. I am in the process of working to get another 4.0 Stage II. Never had any issue with either. Do the recommended maintenance and they should last for years. I see a lot of people questioning the value of FSI motors. The most telling thing about a FSI motor to me is that you NEVER hear a FSI engine owner complain that they are dissatisfied with their engine. A lot of people say they are not worth the cost. If you don’t lIke the cost, don’t purchase one, but don’t begrudge people who want one. It is our money to spend.

@168Sierra Not fair that you have 3 and the wife only has 2! Time for #6!

If you look at what LN addresses these things are completely fixed: Bores going oval Bore coating scoring pistons Bore cracking/D chunk IMS coming loose from sprocket oil pump drive hex IMS bearing These things are replaced but not different from stock: Chain guide material (nylon) Chains Gaskets orings etc Wet sump system So in terms of reliability the motor is much improved but chains and guides will still wear and stretch and taking the car to the track is risky due to it not having a real dry sump system. If not tracking the car an LN engine if properly maintained will last a looooooonngggg time

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Looks like Sneaky Pete is leading the pack so far with 50K+ miles Agree things we enjoy are worth paying for. The problem is there are so many things I enjoy!

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Care to share what the issue was?

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FWIW Jake did indicate that he addresses oiling inadequacies in his build. He isn�t specific about what he does as I think it is one of the proprietary aspects of his builds. The build does include a blueprinted oil pump, so IDK if that has a bit to do with it. But I was going to do a deep sump and talking with Jake he indicated that if it wouldn�t be necessary with his build if I was just doing HPDE events. 100% pure race might be different. I think the earlier example of the pure track car with 7yrs and still going strong supports these builds can handle the track just fine.

My car, with a Flat6Innovations Track Performer Stage 2 4.0 elective rebuild, has been back just over 1 week now and I only have 300 miles on it. I too had checked online for any negative comments from Flat6Innovation owners. There were lots of happy owners and no unhappy ones, which was actually shocking. After dealing with Jud and Jake, I know why so many owners are happy. Jake and Jud go beyond what is typical these days as far as communication and time schedules. They complete projects on-time or ahead of schedule and keep you informed often. I have talked to F6I owners with older builds with a lot of miles, some of them with lots of track miles too, and none have expressed any engine-related issues. Hopefully some more will pop in here and share their experiences. My original 3.6 had ~85K miles and no evidence of scoring when I bore scoped from the sump in November 2018. When Jud sent me the link to my engine's disassembly photos, it was obvious to me that the skirt coating on 3 of the pistons was worn through and that soon bore scoring was going to start. My 996.2 is now even more very enjoyable to drive. I just wish that work and bad weather didn't get in the way so much this last week.

I bought the car in August of 2021. The car had 28k on it and was completely asymptomatic. On a whim, I reached out to Jake. He sent me a very detailed email with pricing AND let me know the next available slot was 1Q of 2023. Well, I jumped on board as I didn't want a paperweight if something were to go wrong. I like the others, scoured the internet for reviews. I couldn't find any bad ones. There were a couple folks where things went wrong but were righted. My car is currently in Georgia and I can tell you, it has been super painful to read these reviews. The anticipation is absolutely killing me. Too bad it's still winter here. I haven't missed one nod of sleep. Oh, also, piston 6s skirt was in trouble. I was headed that way, even at low mileage.

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Hang in there�..the wait is a tough road and if you think it�s hard now wait until they tell you they have the engine installed and running it through its paces�.the anticipation grows 10 fold. The wait is like a right of passage lol�we have all been through it. With the new program it will be a whole different type of wait and anticipation of when the next motor will be released.

I'm in the break-in phase, I've run a lot of high performance motors in various race venues So all I have is immediate driving perspective, remembering I'm in the 1500 mile no 5K+ zone.. Engine is gorgeously smooth for a boxer engine. Power is linear and comes on well starting barely off idle. super pleased and trying to get the miles on.. Got slammed with ice and snow and couldn't drive for over a month. Started it yesterday and just turns on Auto-grin...

Completely satisfied FSI Stage II 3.8 (cable throttle) owner here. I bought my 02/98 build with the specific intention to send to FSI shortly thereafter to do their process to the block. Like @ochristofferson , I had planned to pull the engine and rebuild, but like him after " Looked at doing a Nickies and rebuild myself but when adding up the cost of components, outside services, special tool rentals, etc. and considering Jake's 1 year warranty and my odds of screwing something up, it was cheaper (total cost) to have FSI do it all." It was a no-brainer...all the upgrades to the block along with someone who knows has learned about and continues to learn the failure points of the M96 while applying philosophy of a former Marine helo mechanic (if you know how critical systems work in a helicopter and the importance of getting it right before the bird lifts, you get it), the cost of the labor was worth much, MUCH more than the time I would take to do it myself and what the goals were/are for my 996. I understand those who think it is *too expensive* or pursue other avenues. I'm probably the most broke-*** customer Jake has ever had and I don't regret spending the coin to get the rebuild right. As a seasoned mechanic, I appreciate the fastidiousness and pursuit of excellence FSI has applied to their craft. It is mechanical art as much as anything else, and it's like paying for a work...if you get intrinsic value, the price is not an issue. If you know, you know.

And just when you think you are happy with your FSI engine, you put an X-pipe on it, and you become ecstatic! @TT Oversteer , what are you trying to get out of this trolling? Are you trying to assemble a list of the next generation of problems so that you can get a head start on fixing them? Are you trying to figure out a lower cost option to FSI(given your other thread about the short block) that might claim to be as good? Maybe if you ask directly, you will get a better response as to what people think rather than inferring what people think by the wording in their accolades to FSI.

I'll just add to this discussion that LN Engineering has been putting our Nickies sleeves into M96 engines for almost 20 years and we do about 250 blocks a year, many for Rennlisters tackling their own DIY rebuilds over the years. Of these, very few have actually been at stock bore sizes as we've been doing displacement increases from day one- why build it back to stock? It's been my experience that when there are problems, the forums are the first place people go to air their grievances and the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. I'm not going to say that every outcome is perfect - even professionals from time to time make mistakes, sometimes big ones. I'd venture to say that no one on the planet has more experience with doing big bore conversions on M96 and M97 engines than LN Engineering and that hands down no other builder has built more engines using our Nickies than Flat 6 Innovations, especially since Jake has been instrumental in development of all our products and processes since day one which pre-dates LN Engineering founding. To the original poster's goal of seeking out owners with mileage over 100,000mi on their LN/FSI builds, you'll be hard pressed to find many examples. For most owners, their Porsche isn't their primary vehicle. That's why we see so many low mileage cars our there for sale and why so many stock engines fail from IMS bearing failures or bore scoring at very low miles. I'd venture to say most drive less than 5k miles a year based on my discussions with owners and from UOAs that cross my inbox.

with the amount of money these FSI build cost, you can be 2billion% sure if something went wrong some mens will complain about it...i have zero complaints about my FSI build or the process involved...my only regret is i didn't go 4.3L instead of 4.0L because i thought it would be "enough" sadly...

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I�m not sure what you mean by �trolling�. I�m simply posing a question to those who have used FSI and LN products and services what their experience has been. It�s clearly overwhelmingly positive as evidenced by every single response so far. I asked how many users have experience taking FSI/LN products to the 100k+ mileage point. Is that not a direct question? I am a longtime Porsche enthusiast and I believe in the brand and it�s successful design, engineering and racing history. I have several 911 hobby cars and two Cayennes that I use for towing and driving in snow. I wanted to replace my worn out 265k mile BMW e46 commuter with a relatively inexpensive, economical fun daily driver. Enter the 996 Tiptronic Carrera. I was aware of the issues that plague the M96 but decided to take a chance on one because I believe a lot of internet tales of woe are exaggerated. Now that I own the 996 and I am becoming familiar with it the picture is coming more into focus. Is appears most of the owners here on RL use their cars as toys or treat them as projects to be improved upon. I�m trying to understand why someone would buy a $20k car and put a $30k engine in it only to end up with a $25-30k car. Now I know the answer: it�s LOVE. You guys love your 996�s. I get it. If you plan to keep your car long term and want to enjoy it worry-free while improving it then more power to you. My situation is a little different. I have other hobby/project cars that I have invested in heavily. The 996 isn�t that for me. I want a 911 I can drive daily, park outside at work or the Mall, put my dog in, loan to my kids or friends, all without worry. I�m not interested in a one year/$20k project. So when my M96 needs replacement (and it will, sooner or later) I�m looking at options. My intent is never to criticize, only to learn and share information. Enjoy your cars gentlemen, and thanks for engaging in this thread!

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That is a good distinction. I always ask people what their intentions are for the car. If someone is buying one broken with the intention of flipping it, that's a bad reason to purchase the car. Also, if you aren't interested in keeping the car for the long haul, it likely won't make financial sense either. The majority of people who choose to go the route of building up an M96/M97 engine appreciate the 996 and 997, engine flaws aside, and don't want a newer generation of Porsche. For me personally I have little interest in anything offered by Porsche past the 987.2 or 997.2.

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Thanks for your note, and I apologize for my tone. I have no excuse. I've seen a lot of these threads turn into pretty ugly discussions about perceived value. They always seem to only discuss this one option. Without a comparison, the discussion can get silly. That said, There is no reason the 996 cannot do all the things you describe. You just need to find the one that has been driven and maintained in a frequent and consistent way. There are examples here that have several hundred thousand miles. I expect these have been faithfully attended. Mine started out as a weekend car but is now my daily driver. It was never going to be a show car, but I wanted it to be bulletproof. Thanks again.

I've got about 25k mi. on my 3.4 > 3.8 stage II build. I'll probably never get to 100k on the engine, as I just don't drive the car enough at this point (maybe some day though). Though my engine hadn't failed at the the time of my "elective build", it was well on it's way and I was lucky to have the disposable cash to have it fixed/enhanced the way I wanted to. My work situation and the world as a whole has changed immeasurably since then and I wouldn't be able to do it now - I'm so glad I pulled the trigger when I could. The value of having the engine done right, (and the car overall) is far beyond what it ever would have been worth with a stock engine in it. The value to me is priceless

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I have had a Flat6 Innovations Track Performer engine in my 996 street/track car for over 6 years d I have had zero problems. The engine only has 15,000 miles on it, but I pretty much drive it to/from track events. I have oil samples done annually and I just had our local FSI technician go through the engine and he said it looked great and needed nothing, but we�ll do the spark plugs since they show the hard track use. I love the engine as the worry I used to have of an IMS failure is now off my mind. The engine loves to rev and it pulls much harder and faster than stock for sure. I�d say a Raby built FSI engine is the gold standard!

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my car is past 101k miles. I don�t track it but I do take it supersonic every single time I drive it. No engine oil consumption to talk about in 6 months oil drain intervals . I do about 2500 miles in 6 months. My plan is the same I�ll buy a rebuild engine when it blows. I believe if you maintain the factory engines properly, operate drive the car as it should, make sure you use the best fuel this original engines can last. In personally seen a few with over 200k miles.

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if your car is lapis with space grey you have the car I would want as my perfect car. I have seen experienced two bigger engine builts on the cable throttle both of them not by FSI, a 3.6, and a 3.8. Both by same builder. Who also has a one year warranty. Anyway I'll appreciate it if you let me know where you are because I would definitely would like to see, experience this. I�m partial for the 99 because compared to the turbo is small lightweight nimble and mine is not going to get any faster unless I put a bigger engine on it. Yes I can rip the carpet off , remove the sound deadening material etc, to make it lighter but I don�t want to do, I�m pretty sure I�ll get with squirrel and get to see what the 4.0 stage two can do, but that�s a different engine. Thanks Luis in Texas.

I have the same 3.8 Stage II (cable throttle) as jobyt from FSI. I also could not be happier with the whole process. However, I am a long way from Texas.

I wonder how much different the FSI built motors run compared to the home built motors using the same parts? I am building a 4.0 using, presumably, the same parts as an FSI motor. However, I do not have the benefit of experience so do not know all the little things that go into these motors that sum up to be special. It would be interesting to test an FSI motor compared to a home built. That said, I don�t really care too much else I would have an FSI motor. To me, part of the joy is assembling the engine myself. I will never know at the tricks and that�s ok.

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There are a bunch of differences between an FSI 4.0 engine and a DIY 4.0. Just because the displacement is the same, and some of the products used, that doesn't mean that FSI is buying the same off the shelf parts. There are proprietary parts and services that FSI uses. There are also processes that are more difficult to reproduce. (dynamic balancing to FSI-level being just one) FSI balances the complete rotating assembly, not just the crankshaft. I've rebuilt an M96 before. It can be done, but there are things I could not do to the level of FSI. At this point, my time was better served paying to have my engine rebuilt by FSI. I also ended up with a MUCH better engine than if I'd rebuilt it myself.

I personally have read way too many threads of guys basically destroying their first attempt at a rebuild to even try it myself. Admittedly, many get it right, but dang to get it wrong would be sickening and isn�t something I could worry about. Not to mention I simply don�t have the time. I am better doing what I do well to pay FSI to make sure it is done right.

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FSI alters almost every running clearance in the engine to their own specs. This includes connecting rod sizing, crank carrier align hone sizing as well as the bearings that are used. Some FSI engines don't even use Porsche rod bearings. Most parts are cryogenically enhanced. The dynamic assembly is balanced with both rotating and reciprocating components in the mix. Their cylinders are done on a separate line, and have different surface finishes that match the rings/ ring coatings that are being used. Cylinder heads are one of the biggest differences, as well as the piston specifications in regard to skirt shape and etc. Jake calls out his own specs for most everything, and lots of others are adjusted on site at FSI. Camshaft timing isn't set "straight up" using the standard tools and procedures, and this alone creates an engine that behaves differently. To get an FSI engine, you must buy an FSI engine. The details that add up to really matter can't be purchased. All of these items that I mentioned are handled by the assigned builder of each particular engine. Engine building at FSI is not a team effort, once assigned the same builder carries out every step associated with the engine he has been assigned, right down to the balancing. Not to say that you can't build an engine the same displacement using the standard off the shelf parts. You can do this. These parts are designed to be user friendly, and go together without hiccups or every clearance having to be set. If a DIY builder had the same parts in front of him as an FSI builder has, the engine wouldn't even bolt together properly since FSI wants to set clearances and fit components per engine, not just have things bolt together. These are the reasons why it takes time to create an FSI engine. The goal with other main stream parts are just the opposite, we've adjusted clearances on parts that combine with each other so you don't have to measure everything to infinity to attain a satisfactory end result. FSI's experiences have also factored into these combinations heavily, since they share with us what works with each combination without risks. I was with Jake yesterday while he did the exact same process with a 356 SC engine for Miles Collier. This is what his world looked like while I was there to grab some intake manifold pieces he had just finished flow testing. He had 4 sets of bearings open, searching through combinations of them that would give the desired bearing clearance.

@BRS-LN thank you for the detailed reply. This statement is what I suspected: � The details that add up to really matter can't be purchased.� I understand and accept that there is a secret sauce that make FSI engines special. And I do not expect that those secrets will be published. Further, these processes and attention to detail warrant additional cost. I am happy that the parts sold by @BRS-LN are clearanced and set up to fit together with minimal drama and additional work. That�s why I bought them as I do not want to fool around with all of that stuff. I am content with being � an assembler� vs �a builder�. My point is, there are many paths to keeping these cars on the road and each has cost/benefits. I�m not out to be the fastest or highest HP. I am all about having fun with MY car. Part of that is wrenching on it myself, for the challenge, risk and exhilaration of doing it (hopefully successfully). I have respect for anyone who has ventured down this path before me and for Jake for having the drive and focus to create what he has. This is to all of our benefit. I also believe competition is good and drives further innovation, like what Porschetec has done with the UAOS. These cars are pretty cool and fun to wrench on.

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Thanks for the explanation, I�m pretty sure the whole process is as perfect as it can be. I went to the ln site and saw your rand engine rebuilt services, this is where you use my core? I also saw the FSI cross pipes for sale. If an FSI engine becomes available will it be posted on this site?? A final question im talking about a cable throttle 3.4, will you be offering rebuild services for a bore out rnd 3.8 engine? Thanks and once again I appreciated the details.

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Engines are only available to those who have filled in an application and have been pre-qualified for a certain engine. These people are part of their respective notification list, based on the car they have and their tier of qualification. Unless someone is pre-qualified and made part of a given notification list, they won�t receive updates about the engines being built, nor will they receive notifications of engines that are completed and live for sale. The qualification for purchase is mostly based on the mileage of the core engine, how it has been used, if it has been rebuilt before or seen internal repairs. The biggest qualification factor is failure. Failed core engines are not qualified, though in the case of the early 3.4 cars FSI has a ton of low mileage cores that have not failed, so the panel can sometimes qualify a failed engine for those cars. It all starts with an application submission. The process is very simple. Jake and Bobby discussed a lot of the process on Renncast this week. In the case of RND engines, these are never more than stock in any way. They are truly a stock replacement with Nickies and IMS updates. Over bore will never be a possibility for an RND engine.

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Thank you. You have answered my original questions. I�ll watch renncast. In case of a RND 3.4 cable throttle engine, due to the fact that it has new pistons which should have a more technological design and the improved headwork, any idea about what hp they make over stock? I�m just asking because this coming March wil be my cars 25th birthday and a lot has changed since then. Thanks

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No increase in power is expected with the RND engine. It is a 100% factory replacement only designed to live.

So just tossing my short story into the mix. So mine,,, 2003 C4 Cab, ,,well I bought it from a small dealer, he had it in to a mechanic I was familiar with, Had all the data on a fairly reasonable writeup. Except no bore scope, (I hadn't realized the "scope" of the problem... <pun intended> It mentioned NO rear main issue or "obvious AOS issues" 116K miles and I tracked down its history and it had a clutch put in at about 80K. The warning signs were there,, after I looked things over , Brand new water pump(I now consider this a red flag if no records are available.. Brand new Coolant tank. (Not Porsche... ) Its someone trying to find a water loss in the cooling system. Mine ended up being cracked cylinders which based on events at the time my best guess was oil through a failed AOS and into the cylinders. Luckily it didn't D chunk.. Later found out the dealer gave all his PPI business to the guy, and on Rennlist found out another buyer within about 2 weeks of me bought a Coupe and it lunched the engine on his way home (Fly and drive to N cali from Portland OR.) He had a similar PPI.. The mechanic has a ton of older air cooled experience. But doesn't actually do much work on water cooled Porsches.. At the fail point on mine I put it in storage for a few months till I could research builders and options. When pricing parts at the time,, I couldn't quite make doing it all my self and taking the risk worth the base investment in parts + the specialized tools, then I looked at engine builders and after talking to pretty much all the bigger ones our west ended up talking to Jake.. It was still too much of an impulse buy for a 996, and that cost me a bit but I'm still not really "too" upside down in the car and really super happy with how it runs. Cheeers. Dave

Quotes source post: 18598806

how many miles you have on the engine and what FSI engine size you went for. Thanks

I'm in the break-in stage. so < 1500 miles, its a street version 3.8. Full balance, Upgraded J/E Pistons were a couple uplifts I did on mine. Phenomenally smooth even out of the gate. I know the real question was high mile engines, But with some of the discussion thought I'd at least tag in on the process..

Quotes source post: 18600364

you have to change the oil every 6 months regardless of mileage and what oil are they telling you , you have to use?? Thanks

Quotes source post: 18600477

It�s a popular mainstream brand of oil that you can get at most major retailers, not sure if Jake publicly wants it out there that this is the brand he highly recommendeds, if he wants to share that he will. As for the every 6 months minimum oil service interval, he believes that the used oil sitting in the engine for longer will start to breakdown its protective properties. Everything he highly recommendeds comes from extensive research and experience. If longevity is what one is looking for then why not follow the direction of the guy who has been dealing with these M9X engines for over 20 years? I DIY my oil services so it�s not a big deal, nor super expensive. Good excuse to get under the car and make sure everything is looking good. Plus nothing like having a cold one while participating in some wrench therapy with some good tunes in the background

Quotes source post: 18600978

As Jake has said publicly, he doesn't recommend any one specific oil and nothing in the warranty documentation requires a specific oil. What I can tell you is that depending on the customer's intended use or what is most important to the customer, what oil is best may vary. Jake has previously mentioned to me that he does like Liqui-Moly's 2040 5w40, which meets the Porsche A40 standard. I can tell you that customers running this oil do report lower than average oil consumption. There may be other Group III/IV mid-SAPS blends such as Motul X-Cess 5w40 that will deliver similar results. YMMV. Conversely, Driven DT40 does provide better wear numbers but being heavily friction modified, some do see slightly higher oil consumption with this oil and that is to be expected as an acceptable trade-off. For track use, a race oil is a must, and that needs to be changed after every track event. Viscosity depends on bearing clearances and operating temperatures. The 6 month or 5,000 mile service interval is one we also recommend and many independent mechanics go by.

Quotes source post: 18600978

i but my oil and filter and pay someone to change it. Anyway I Run Mobil 1 OW40 mix with Mobil one 5W50. I did some oil analysis on the 0W40 and found out that do to shear it was almost borderline at jumping out of grade. Now the detergency, dispersancy, tbn where all in great shape. I would have had to set the drain interval at the point that the oil sheared out of grade. Anyway on the turbo I put 66 percent OW40 and 33 percent 5W50, the car seems pretty happy with it. On the 99 I�m running a 50-50 mix, but on the next oil change I�m going 66-33, then I�ll analyze that mix. Mobil one is readily available and many times on sale, sometimes for around $45 you get a 5 quart jug, an oil filter and a cabin air filter. Thanks for the information.

I've only got ~6k miles in ~18 months on my 3.4 -> 3.6 Stage 1 build; 1999 10/98 build C4 Cab. The engine arrived at FSI in 6/2020 with 35k miles on it. I finally got the car back in 07/2021. It will be a long time before I break the 100k mile barrier. I drive as hard as I am able given traffic inside the D.C. Beltway. There are some nice drives close in but they're too short. I need to head west for some longer drives. The engine ran well but failed IMS Solution pre-certification, early bore scoring, prompting me to just have the engine rebuilt with UAOS. I'm very glad I sent the engine to FSI. We discussed what I wanted in the car; increased power available throughout the rev range and not having to worry about the various modes of failure. I don't intend to track the car. I chose extra goodies like piston upgrade, high performance ignition coils, and race level balancing. I figured these items would help with the longevity of the motor. So, more power and not having to worry about D-chunk, bore scroring, or IMSB failure was worth it for me. To say my primary goal was not achieved would be an understatement. I have power on tap when I need it and the M96 just purrs (I like to think the tighter balancing tolerances is responsible)! I had already adjusted my maintenance regimen to include twice yearly oil changes so I figure the engine will last at least 100k with it needing very little, if any work.

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West and south. Get to the mountains.

I hear that one all the time. I have been working between FSI and LN for one year starting tomorrow, and I have yet to see or hear a single complaint. In my prior job elsewhere in the industry I would field a complaint almost daily. I think the primary reason for the difference is because FSI has always made very sure that their engine aligns with what the person expects, and making sure that expectation is real. People thought that Jake was selective because he was a jerk, when really he was selective so he didn't have to deal with complaints that come with selling anything, to anyone. Most companies don't have the stability to send business away, and that creates more liability for them, since so many people that they service end up being disappointed. We are going to try hard to keep the same qualifications in place as the LN version of the FSI program matures.

Quotes source post: 18600978

That's simply not how it works. There's enough UOAs out there that contradict this claim. An oil sump is more-or-less a closed system. Yes, it has some atmopshere in it, and there will be a minor amount of oxidation, but oil sitting in a sump does not degrade measurably over years, let alone 6 months.

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Please explain what you can offer to back this claim up. Seems to me, even the best engine oil starts to break down and loose viscosity the minute you start the car. You add... Thermal breakdown, fuel intrusion, hydrocarbons, wear metal containments, additive wear package deterioration, viscosity loss, oxidation, acid, etc. and it's more reason IMHO to use short change intervals.

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uh oh, hydrocarbons? IN MY OIL??? Countless UOAs show that oil sitting in a sump does not degrade measurably. No real change in cp/TAN/TBN. I never said anything about behavior that encourages contamination. Do you worry about oil that sits in a bottle? Why should you worry about it sitting in a metal bottle? The science does not agree with the Church of Raby, sorry.

Quotes source post: 18603678

So that I clearly understand you. You're speaking about if oil sits in a sump for long periods of time (e.g. storage) but is never used in operation? Is that what you're saying? Please clarify minus the religion type insults.

Quotes source post: 18603678

My car is parked for 6 months. Parked means, it doesn't roll, it doesn't move, it doesn't get started. Yes, I've changed the oil in October, drove around the block to get it to operating temp. Parked it. Next start was April, after I dumped the oil that had just a few miles on it. This year, I did not change the oil in the fall. Oil has 1500 miles on it. I will dump the oil before first season start with fresh oil/filter. With a car that is parked for 6 months, I can't see why the oil needs to be changed every 6 months, especially with the limited mileage I actually do.

Quotes source posts: 18603678, 18603678

Nope, especially if it in the original sealed oil container. I don't worry about it "expiring" because I know it will be used within 6-12 months. But the thread was talking about drain intervals with in operation use of oil. Talk to any Tribiologist, once oil is exposed to air and moisture, it will begin a chemical breakdown process even if it's not in an operating engine. I totally disagree with your statement saying it will never breakdown over years. Now if you pour fresh oil directly in a clean glass bottle and seal it, then it will theoretically last a long time because it's not exposed to the elements. But if it's clear glass, tribologists will argue that UV light will have an affect on the oil. Guess you can use a non-translucent jar instead? ha!

Quotes source post: 18603725

I will add that as long as the bottle of oil hasn't been opened and is sealed, it will be good for several years. The only thing that can happen over time is that the additives can fall out of suspension if it sits longer than 3 years. Just be sure to give the bottle a good shake before using it :-)

Quotes source post: 18603709

If you don't drive the car in the winter, it's always best to change the oil before the car goes into storage. Best to store it with clean oil. Don't forget to add a fuel stabilizer like Driven's Defender products to that tank of gas and be sure to run the car so that the fuel with additives touches all fuel system components.

I was wondering how long it would take for the personal insults to start. Honestly, it took longer than I thought.

Quotes source post: 18603678

So interestingly enough I just sent off a sample in mid December, it was drained into a 1qt which was shaken and sampled pulled then sent. Well the sample got lost in the mail, never showed up. Fortunately I had about 1/2 qt left sitting in my garage for about a month after the original sample. I pulled another sample from that, making sure to shake the bottle well before sampling. Results indicated a bit of fuel, nothing super alarming and viscosity was still good. Well earlier this week that sample that had gotten lost showed up. They decided to run that sample zero indication of fuel. I am not suggesting the difference is any indication at all that the resampled oil had gone �bad�, but the �fresh used oil� sampled right away had no indication of fuel, while the same oil allowed to sit for a month in a 1qt did. No real explanation, but it is certainly interesting they weren�t the same.

Oil is cheap, engine's are not.

Quotes source post: 18605015

^^^Amen brother.

Agreed and I am by no means suggesting oil needs replaced after 1 month of sitting, what I am suggesting is the notion that oil sitting in a motor doesn�t change isn�t correct it does. Now my guess is if ran for a bit with some heat and mixing, the fuel either burns off or goes back into the mix, but how long does this take and what overall impact on the properties of the oil is the question.

Quotes source post: 18605070

@bgoetz Absolutely agree with you. My "Amen Brother" was just acknowledging the great comment by Fireman on oil changes. Don't know why folks are reluctant to change the oil. Lubrication is everything. Anything that creates sub-optimal lubrication should be identified and mitigated if you want extended engine life. Moisture, fuel and various contaminants don't develop in a sealed oil bottle. But they do develop once you pour the oil from the bottle into the engine. Doesn't help if you drive the car for 10 min to and from the grocery store and never get it up to temp to burn off the moisture. Sure doesn't help either if you have bad fuel injectors and you are leaking fuel diluting the lubrication benefits of good oil. Nor does it help if you refuse to refresh your MAF, coils and plugs. At the very least, more frequent oil changes can help mitigate the negative effects of not properly driving the car and not running properly functioning parts. Bore scoring doesn't happen because the bores came scored from the factory. It develops over time from bad service.

Quotes source post: 18605109

Once people finally learn that the oil has a role even when the engine isn't operating, they will finally understand why time makes an impact on the service life of oil. This is why some oils are better storage oils than others. People who race methanol powered vehicles understand this, if the oil isn't changed after every event (and sometimes after every pass) the engine internals will start to rust. Newbies in the world of alcohol powered engines usually make this mistake just once.

Not to totally derail the thread into one on oil, to dive in a little bit deeper on this, combustion byproducts combine with moisture in the crankcase to form acids. That's why oil needs to be changed more often, especially when operated in cold climates or for short times. Extended operation in cold start or engines with bad injectors with high fuel dilution further exacerbate this issue. As mentioned above, some oils are better for storage than others. For example, a true race oil doesn't have the detergents, dispersants, and corrosion inhibitors a street oil has, so that's why you have to change it after every event.

I've opened up engines where the PH was full acid from extremely long storage(Like 10 + years) was high enough to burn when you got it on your skin. This was a large gas tractor with Delo 400 in it.. A simple PH strip will show the difference between new and as it ages... FWIW..

Quotes source posts: 18603725, 18603753

In my situation, the car is not started during storage. Never. In 20 years, I have only ever started a stored car once to get at some summer tires that I needed to trade in the daily driver. The comments above seem contradictory. On the one had, oil degrades once exposed to air. Hence, I would suggest starting the season with fresh brand new oil would be advisable? Then, there is the suggestion that changing the oil before the car goes into storage is advisable so the car is stored with clean oil. A couple of things to note. My car is only driven infrequently. For no other reason than there just isn't the time to do it. During the 5 months of good weather, we spend 3 to 4 days a week at the cottage. Porsche can't go to the cottage as the giant poodle just doesn't fit. I take the car to the office 4 or 5 times over the summer months. About a 14 mile drive. Rest of the mileage are actually intentional drives. Usually more than 100 miles. Point being that even after a season, the oil only has 2000 miles and is 7 months old when it goes into storage. I've also read that some lambo and ferrari guys drain the oil in the fall and only refill in the spring. This seems crazy to me. Could you imagine forgetting to put in oil or having to move the car a couple feel? On the Porsche, this was the first year I let the oil sit in it. It will be changed end of March and the car will be started on that day. Right now I figure I have the maximum oil in the sump and it has been sitting since October.

Quotes source post: 18606954

I'm no tribologist or certified lubrication specialist, but I have worked with Lake Speed, Jr. on several projects and one thing I've learned is the Porsche recommended long oil service interval is not the best for your engine, especially the M9X engine. Change the oil BEFORE the driving season. Then before the car is put into winter storage, put fresh oil in the car along with a full tank of gas with fuel stabilizer. Charles recommends the Driven product. If you drive the car year around, then 6 months or 5000 miles whichever comes first.

So, you put fresh oil in when you put the car away for winter. Then, you wake it up and empty that oil and put new fresh oil in ? Is that what you’re saying ? There will be like no miles on the oil you’re removing and like no contamination because the engine hasn’t been run, I don’t get it.

Quotes source post: 18607118

It's because the oil have been exposed to air and moisture while sitting inside the engine for 5-6 months. Technically, they say oil sitting is the sump for long periods of time is subject to oxidation and viscosity loss; therefore, it's best to put fresh oil in the car before the driving season. Before storage, change the oil, drive to storage, fill the tank full of fuel with a stabilizer and then when you remove the car from storage, put fresh oil in the car asap. IMHO, cheap insurance.

OK - agree with putting fresh oil in before driving season… But, why empty the old oil out at the end of the driving season, at that point the dirty oil in the car is only serving as a rust inhibitor during the storage period. The thing that’s weird to me is the suggestion to have new oil sitting in the sump for the off season… that’s what I don’t get. Cheap insurance is great. Lighting the cost of a case of DT40 on fire for nothing is dumb. Calling @3/98 911 coupe we need your expertise here.

Quotes source post: 18607118

The FSI protocol for storage is the following: -Change the oil prior to storage. After this service drive the car normally for 20 miles, ensuring that the oil gets up to operating temperature. -Store the car for the period of time that you desire -When waking the car up, quickly start and stop the engine 4-5 times watching the oil pressure gauge to ensure that you achieve oil pressure before allowing the engine to remain running. -After storage, drive the car a maximum of 250 miles before changing the oil again, for the remainder of your driving season. Based on data collected from cars that have been stored in this manner, this has been the FSI storage protocol for over a decade. Jake's preferred winter protocol is NOT to store the car, and to drive it on the days that you may experience dry conditions that are favorable for operation. Storage may be favorable in regard to corrosion with the vehicle underbody, but it is less than favorable for all mechanical systems that need constant exercise to remain healthy. FSI owners are educated on these topics, so they can make the best decisions moving forward.

Thanks for sharing, interesting. I would be interested in learning the reasoning behind the protocol.

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I totally get what you're saying and maybe Luis, as our meat loving certified lubrication specialist, can chime in here on his thoughts. But what I recall is the oil that has been in operation during the driving season becomes contaminated (hydrocarbons, wear metals, oxidation, etc. etc) and turns very acidic which could lead to corrosive damage to metal components and create slug during long periods of storage. Therefore, they say it's best to drain the contaminated oil and put fresh oil in the engine and let it circulate before storage.

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B3, maybe you have some pull to get Lake to participate in the thread.

Quotes source post: 18607247

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts this was the root cause of a 'known failure' of M96 engines...acidified oil would pool in a certain part and make it's way into the affected part causing premature wear and ultimately, failure.

Amen. We've had a relatively mild winter around my parts and so this has been easy to do, but even when it is harder to do I still try my darnedest to give the toys a little exercise every now and again. Cars don't like to sit.

Quotes source post: 18595722

Arctic Silver with black interior. Has the only options I wanted (220/222/224) and not much else, so one of the lightest (except for the sunroof delete - I really wish it had that.) Elephant Racing upgraded suspension, so it is very direct with no rubber bushing slop and a terrific canyon carver/light track duty car. I'm in the SF Bay Area. back side of Mt. Tam in Marin Co., CA FSI "Raby Loop" test drive

Simple. To enhance longevity through proper service intervals that are based on keeping the oil in top condition. Over time owners across the north have volunteered to be a part of studies that would quantify this. Some did not change the oil before or after storage, others just before storage, and others only after storage. The comparatives were from cars that saw no storage time, and roughly the same service intervals in regard to time.Doing this for a few years makes it clear what works in regard to oxidation levels. FSI has hundreds of engines to use for this study. It was simple to see that the oil that stayed within the engine the shortest amount of time had the best oxidation level, and retained more of the anti- wear package and viscosity. When I asked Jake about what I should do with my 997.2 or my BMW when it is stored, he responded "I don't know, we've only studied our engines after they were built our way, and I don't care about anything else". I knew to stop right there.

I don’t get it. Mostly because a phrase like keeping the oil in top condition isn’t quantifiable. If we wanted to keep oil in top condition at all times, I would take that to mean as it would need to be changed before each drive and we can hopefully agree, that’s not reasonable. So, there has to be a point at which the oil is harmful sitting for prolonged periods within the engine and sump, or it’s not. My curiosity lies in, how was it determined that X quantifiable measurement is bad for the engine in a storage environment and what is that value. ETA - you mention anti wear and viscosity, how is this related when the use we are talking about is as a storage oil ?

I drive both of mine year round, rain/shine/snow/sleet, no need to worry about storage protocol.

Quotes source post: 18607456

I mentioned above how the periods were determined that created the protocol. Using actual FSI engines in every environment possible, both stored and not stored. Jake has made it very clear to me through training that he loathes vehicles being stored, and why. I might be able to prompt him to have a Renncast on the subject at some point, so you can hear it from him. Luckily you don't have to worry about it, so you shouldn't. I guess follow whatever GM says for your 996? We all know that the point you'll make sooner of later is this protocol is really about selling more oil, which couldn't be further from the truth. FSI has never sold oil, not even to engine purchasers.

OK - seems as though the info of when oil may be harmful to be used in storage would find ears in a lot of different applications. I wasn’t and am not worried, just interested. And if my choice to run a GM engine irks you - I’m sorry but you guys don’t make an engine that does what I want mine to do at the price I want it to do it at. (ETA - I did buy your electric power steering kit and have it sitting on the shelf waiting to go in though ) I’ll ungracefully bow out of the conversation at this point and just watch. Just a word on the way out - you don’t know what you don’t know.

Quotes source post: 18607456

And it is because of this confusion that I asked the question: I prefer changing in spring because the oil came from a sealed bottle, no change in temps, no condensation. Justification for changing in fall is that the engine is circulated with clean fresh oil before storage. Now, I only do a maximum of 2000 miles per season. If someone changed their oil in April, drove 2000 miles by Jun 30. Don't drive the car for a month, Would they change the oil in August? I would say not. So, aligning this with my situation, what harm could 2000 mile oil sitting in the sump possibly do to an M96 motor? I get the car should be driven argument. I'm in Canada (Toronto). Sure, there are some days that I could take the care out (it's insured regardless). I hate winter driving. I would need winter rubber, etc. for a couple drives a season. My other toys, such as boats, ATV's, even the lawn tractor get the oil changed one a year and also sit for at least 6 months, 9 months sitting for the boat. And, I would never accuse anyone of using this a sales tool to sell more oil. Rather, I'm really trying to understand what goes wrong with oil that it needs to be changed even if the car was never started? And, I'm not trolling or looking to create conflict.

So you learn it first hand. ​​​​​​​Thanks, man.

Quotes source posts: 18607542, 18607493

Agree. Being presumptuous is a poor character trait. ​​​​​​​

Quotes source post: 18605015

True for a Porsche engine but you can pick up a rusty truck engine from a junkyard pretty cheap. I�ve always put my motorcycles/cars into winter storage with fresh oil and a full gas tank with stabilizer. But I�ll drive for a month or 2 with that oil in the spring before changing it for the season.

I don't have 100k, but I have put 15k since August of last year. I have stage two track performer which transformed the car. The engine is smoother than the original and with the addition of FSI headers and x pipes were past 996 GT3 power in terms of specs and it preforms as well as the modern base Porsches. Clearly I an enjoying because I'll have 20 to 25k on this car by the end of one year. That's the beauty of these engines there meant to be driven, and the 996 is the perfect analog, cheap 911 to mate with these engines. Great engine, joy to drive. So far no engine lights. Thrilled thank you Jake

Mine now has 15k miles on it. It‘s amazing! I’ve had no issues with it. I just wish I could drive it more. Hopefully soon I‘ll be able to.

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I hope mine and your health continues to improve so we can road trip more in the 996's !!!!

I have a Stage 2 in my 2005 997 S. Installed in 2018, at 75,000 miles, just passed 126,000 miles. Commuted, road trips, and 5 track days a year. Car is driven hard, maintained regularly. I didn�t think the change from 3.8 to 4.0 would make much difference, but the car is amazing. Better torque, screaming top end, beautifully smooth, and no issues since I got it back. Jake and Jud were wonderful to work with during the rebuild, and while I was working through break-in. I feel fortunate to have the Flat Six engine and to be a part of the community.

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Almost five years in, 35k miles later, zero problems...zero CELs...only thing i do is change the oil...still regret going 4L instead of R43...

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I received my car back from build at FSI about four years ago. I can't speak to your question regarding 100K miles simply because I'm not anywhere near that milage. However, your question on how do I sleep. My answer is Wonderful! My motivation for going the FSI route with my 2005 997.1S was my love of the car and its driving dynamics. My journey to FSI began when my car developed the telltail ticking of borescore around 41000 miles (as subsequently verified during teardown), I likely could have driven many more mile before it failed but my preferance was to get in front of it and do preventive rather than try to repair after it broke. Being somewhat familiar with the various issues of the M96/M97 engines I began looking into rebuild options, I'm an instructor with the Porsche club and my car actually spends more time on the track than the road. As such, I was looking for the solution that provided both reliability and increased performance. FSI addressed both of those needs for me. While FSI was not the low cost provider, it truly was not an apple to apples comparison with the companies that I looked into at that time. In my case, what I purchased from FSI was a knowledge based upgraded engine with weak points addressed, internals replaced with new, as well as many upgraded components. The engine was race balanced and tuned and is a joy to drive. The resulting shift and increase in torque actually caused changes in my on track driving technique and I am now actually well into 5th gear on the longest straight of my home track. I no longer have concerns with reliability or concerns with pushing the car too hard. It kind of frees you to truly enjoy the full capabilities of these cars. I am a stickler for the maintenance and probably do overkill but I due expect this will remain my forever car. You get what you pay for.

Anybody have an idea of what Jake has been working on with regards to the next evolution of M96 rebuilds?

Quotes source post: 20616463

On the Rennvision YouTube channel spray on cylinder liners (SUMEBore) were in the testing phase ~5 years ago. I reached out sometime in the last year regarding the subject and FSI has moved to PWTC and it's available for customers. Forgoing traditional cylinder liners allows them to bore the 3.6/3.8 engine to 4.4L, though at greatly added cost. EDIT: PTWA, Plasma Wire Transfer Arc

Quotes source post: 20616696

What is PWTC?

Plasma Wire Transfer Coating I believe

Kawasaki had something similar in the last half of the 70s. They stuck a coated wire in the center of the cylinder bore and then hit it with a lot of electricity. That blasted the coating on the wire into the aluminum cylinder wall and made a hard coating. I think it was an iron coating on the wire. The process was called Electro Fusion. I made a thin hard coating on the cylinder wall so the heat transfer was improved.

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Wow

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disregard, non contextual

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Ya, Plasma Wire Transfer does apply a good coating for rings/pistons, on already sturdy cylinder structure blocks. The m96 block have a defective structure problem. All the big m96 builders agree on that point. Thats the main reason for cylinder liners to fix the structure problem that eventually creates heavily out of round cylinders that might be one of the major causes of bore score and excess blow by/hp loss. PWTC afaik normally only applies a few maybe up to 5 mm of coating after cylinders are machined to give room for the PWTC. Not enough to fix structure problems. Maybe Charles or Brandon can chime in and explain further....

Anybody interested in knowing a bit more about PTWA, you can see on this web site: https://renndienst-solutions.com/what-is-ptwa%3F . I believe LN Engineering is working with them to do the feasibility of using this technology on their engine rebuild. Very interesting

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I was amazed to find Jake cuts directly through the chaff and addresses you as if he's your best friend. Blunt and to the point. This alone cemented my belief he is the man. I'm a brand new owner of 6/98 build. Never owned a Porsche in my life until last year. Absolutely love it. I plan on keeping it until I have to hang up my keys and give it to my son. I only wish I could have afforded to buy one before. I didn't buy it with the intention to flip it. I've already put enough into it where I'll never get my money back. So what's a little more to have piece of mind and enjoy the benefits of it while I can. I simply can't help myself

Quotes source post: 20618686

I was going to say "welcome to the club"; when I decided on an FSI engine I knew I would never recover the cost. But truthfully when it comes to 996 Porsches I suspect we're all members of the "spent more than it's worth" club. (Maybe the turbo folks make their way out...)

More than it�s worth is kind of a moot point since I couldn�t find my way into something better for less anyway. I have stereo equipment and other things I�ve built in a similar position. Doesn�t really matter what I can sell it for if it�s still worth less than the cost of the next best alternative. The best argument against it would be to buy some other poor saps investment for a relative song, but you don�t get the same piece of mind they (or you) would have paid for. C�est la vie. A relatively light, analog, moderate power Porsche 911 for 50-60k seems about right, even if resale is 40k. The whole discussion above is about these making impressive NA horsepower and being dead nuts reliable. At 60k there isn�t that much competition. LS Miata? Z06? Maybe, but I get to drive home in a Porsche�

This is going to wonder around a bit, 3 years in, car runs perfect. I did the 3.8 version I think its closest to a street+ assembly,, I upgraded a few bits when working with Jake, mostly for pure durability, engine is smooth, way way smoother than pre rebuild and while doing it I also updated a few things on the car, new hoses, 3 new CSF radiators, Full fresh brake service that kinda thing. Car never fails to please, I'm also running the cross pipe with the new cats since my cats had been ruined by the oil and coolant stuffed through them when the AOS failed and cracked a couple cylinders. I spent over a year looking at options and a LOT of it was deciding to commit to the cost, I was only in to my 2003 C4 Cab for $15,500 so the cost of any engine rebuild felt a bit harsh but I finally for a ton of reasons picked FSI/Jake and I am happy with everything about the choice. Among other things his model for working with a new customer impressed me, Straight forward choices, I tried to keep my questions on point and bundled up without being a time sync for him. I made a list of about 10 shops that seemed like they could do the work (Mine was done during covid...) Logistics eliminated about half the shops, most would not let me drop the engine and ship it, A couple got eliminated because they could not listen at all and wanted me to invest in 75K Race engines despite me repeatedly point out I'm not going to track the car.. I got down to FSI had a final call with Jake, pulled my engine, stuffed it in a Rented Tahoe and drove from Portland OR to Atlanta to drop it off, I had 3 shippers in a row back out (covid....) and the last one called literally on the day it was due to be shipped and pushed me out a month. Took me about 8 days for the round trip. Had fun, very surreal driving I80 during covid, often went over an hour without seeing anything but a freight truck, set the cruise and let it roll, fun fact a 2wd Tahoe with a 5.3 gets 23 MPG with the variable displacement and vvt up to around 75.. I didn't spend near what I planned on fuel. Just a side opinion,, Jakes pricing is not as out of line as some seem to think. I have spent most of my life racing and crewing for other racers, many many engines built and gone. Jakes prices are on par with a medium build road race engine from other manufacturers (IE: any of the big three will be ~$35K to be a front running engine), less than many sprint car engines ($40K+) and a whole lot less than some street driven full effort drag motors(50-80K), then compare to any sports car that can top 170MPH (Price out a new engine for the current mid engine corvette, new hellcat, etc) The 996 engine is every bit as technical as the race engines.. In racing I observed anybody can assemble an engine, not everybody can build an engine. All in all I found the same thing many others have, the service was awesome, the communications were perfect and the result is amazing. Buy once never cry again.. Wont ever regret the purchase.

@bgoetz You’re using 10W-30? Note your bearing wear.I would ask you to resubmit the same sample at least two more times and see what the deviations are. I don’t see that much variance between most of the values, and it’s possible your high metal content could, in fact, alter the chemistry. The UOA places don’t indicate their analytical error %; +/- 5% would be possible.

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That's the truth. Bought it for $10.5k. Needed repainting and a number of voluntary upgrades/replacements that added $24k to date without accounting for a FSI rebuild next year. I don't care. I love this car and plan to drive it until I drop. Then it's my oldest son's ride.

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PTWA - Plasma Transferred Wire Arc I'm speaking tomorrow at Porsche Parade on this technology as it's being used by Porsche in all the sports car engines, and at this point, is a proven solution. Plasma coated cylinders have been an option, albeit a very pricey one, on FSI R-Series engines going back years. Some background - Ford developed and patented the technology and it was brought to market by Flame Spray Industries. Besides the Ford Coyote engine and all the performance permutations Ford has, the Nissan GT-R is probably the most notable example of an engine with PTWA. Porsche was a relatively late adopter of this tech. SUMEbore was used in the 918 Spyder, but beyond that, only Macan, Panamera, and Cayenne models utilize this tech. The only known issue with Porsche's use of PTWA is isolated instances of cylinder bore corrosion. However, this isn't something that has been noted with any other examples of PTWA or SUMEbore coated bores from Ford or Nissan. My best guess is that it's a combination of ethanol enriched fuels, long oil change intervals, and short tripping or vehicles that sit more than they are driven. I've only seen one example of this and it was from a car that had a salvage title from flood damage. Considering this goes all the way back to 2017, we're pushing 10 years. I'm sure I would have already seen more instances if this was a wide-spread issue or functional problem, which Porsche indicates it's not.

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In fact, we've actually found that the mechanical prep process that is required before the application of any plasma spray bore does provide a notable level of reinforcement. In not so many words, the bores actually get dovetailed and the coating "bites" into this. Here's a close up of what the mechanically prepped bore looks like. Between Jake and myself, we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars testing and evaluating these technologies as there is zero information available to the aftermarket. Even the companies offering the coatings don't know anything beyond the coating itself. We know that Nikasil is on borrowed time. It's pretty much been phased out of production for environmental reasons in Europe and it's just a matter of time before regulations in the US make plating anything nearly impossible. That's why we have put so much time and effort into understanding spray bore technologies.

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I believe I heard that talk at the Tech Tactics conference this past February. Fascinating stuff.

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Thanks for the reply Charles... Yes, Sumebore is a plasma coating being used now successfully on many Porsche engines, and for a while now, at least since the lokasil type coatings from the debacle on the m96/7. But not used on any of the m96/7 engines, not even on the new produced short/long m96/7 blocks direct from Porsche parts. This being the 996 forum,,, as for the M96 block, are you saying it doesn't need to be sleeved to fix the structure problem. .?

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Correct. Nothing from Porsche, even new replacement blocks, for engines prior to the 718 and 991.2 have been updated to PTWA. They still have Alusil/Lokasil. As far as the mechanical dovetailing and subsequent coating providing improved stability, I can't for 100% certainly say that would help prevent cylinder cracking. Sleeving is really the only way to be 100% sure that you don't have possible future failures from inherent issues with the castings themselves.