!!WARNING your 996 may need a TOTAL Engine replacement!!!! Read on...

For some of us following the saga of "is RMS such a big issue?" and other topics the reality is that we are facing bills for totally new engines. Most of our cars have not covered substantial mileage (usually 16k-40k), they have never been raced and they have been fully serviced at Porsche Centres. It is widely agreed that latent defects in some of the 996 engines mean that total replacement is inevitable. cost between $10,000 to $17,000 to which Porsche will contribute $0 in most cases. PORSCHE DENY THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM!! In the USA most Porsche centres replace engines on a "good will" basis regardless of their age but in europe and england, this is at all common. Further Porsche put us through various unnecessary hurdles to try to get out of paying to the effect most people cough up when they do not need to I have set up an email address [email removed] please send me the details of your car and please get others that you know to do the same. I need all those that have had total engine replacements carried out either for free or at cost. what i need to know is 1. The reg of car and date of first reg so that we are not acused of making up the numbers 2. The mileage and how many years old the car was when it failed. 3. What the technical problem that caused the failure eg cylinder cracked 4. How much it cost you 5. offers and time scale from Porsche eg i was first offered �0 by Porsche GB the �800 a week later 6 If you had to fist pay for the technical inspection I will try to get an electronic profoma but just mail me at that address. Its real and i am serious about getting this going Finally we have to say that we have no axe to grind against Porsche Centres nor are we against the brand we just want the truth.

It is? I don't think so. Last survey I saw on this forum, actually very few, a tiny minority, had any major problems with their 996. Anyway, to help you, may I suggest that you get on all the Porsche forums you can find and ask for the names. You may get a more representative sample, but I seriously doubt you'll find that "total (engine) replacement is inevitable".

BTW, heres a link to that survey: 996 Reliability

Well, EJ took on a similar task w. 993 wiring harnesses. By compiling all the specifics of each car that had the problem, he came up with a substantial database of hard facts, that lead to a US gov (NHSTA?) agency investigation, which lead to a recall on all affected cars. I think a methodical approach to gathering all the pertinent information is to be commended. It'll give everyone some hard facts to go on, rather than the emotional gut reactions which don't really get you anywhere w. Porsche if you have a problem. Good luck w. the project, n4das; you might think about putting your name in your sig file if you're going to become point man on this project, FWIW.

I agree with Robert that it's a good idea to gather the information but I would suggest doing so without the inflaming BS. Very few cars will need their engine replaced and those that do will cost $8k, not $10k to $17.

Might be UK prices. Norcal dealer quoted 10K to a forum contributer. It should be remembered when engines are replaced; they are replaced with the MY96 block, that has the design failure. The good news is they have a long warranty.

I love how you already have your conclusions before you get your data. Who has widely agreed that there is a latent defect and do you have any information to back up your statement that Porsche "in most cases" contributes $ 0 to repairs when there is an engine failure. Is that a picture of your engine or one you just found on the internet. Perhaps you should give some information about the engine in the picture and state whether that is a failure caused by a latent defect and one that Porsche has refused to cover. Lastly, it may be helpful if you are willing to use a name to validate this thing or what you are saying. BTW, thanks for the bizzare PM. You are one strange dude . . . or chick.

RE: Wiring harness v. Engine issues An inherent problem in engine issues is that an individual starring at a new engine bill may very well disagree with the computer which indicates a blown shift or an over rev. and swear that they never abused the car or that the car was never tracked by them or the prior owners. With a wiring harness, there is little question about cause.

Might we cut some slack to someone who is trying to potentially help the rest of the 996 owners (or future 996/997 owners - like me). Robert said it best - keep it methodical, keep it factual and good luck!

Kinda hard to give slack to someone who starts out with an unsubstantiated claim but states it like gospel truth. Con artists and snake charmers start out the same way. Simillar allegations have been made on this forum, have been discussed ad nauseum, and all these doomsayers are getting to be nothing but as irritating as telemarketers selling a nonsense product. Check the archives, and you'll see what I mean. Give me facts, give me numbers, give me stats, and I'll join your crusade. Give me rumors, nasty allegations, unsubstatiated innuendos, BS inflammatory statements, and I'll give you flack.

Good points Palting. I can't argue with logic. Sorry if I came on too strong

If you want to be scientific about this matter you'll need hard numbers instead of anecdotal observations off the internet. Unfortunately, PAG is probably the only source for that kind of data. While I have misgivings abouit certain aspects of the 996 engine design, I do not believe they are inherently flawed or particularly weak...quite the contrary in fact.

Thank you all for the response. I note the following: 1. I agree that it may be a minority of people, but when Porsche centres deny any incidents have occured then it becomes an issue. No one has ANY figures. All i want to know is an answer to the question how many peolpe have had their engine changed even with "normal" use? 2. I agree that some defects may not require total replacement, nor is this an inevitablity, but as above all i want to know for the moment is those people who require one. 3. The prices quoted are UK prices �9,750(=$16,770 at rate of 1.72) for a new engine from a Porsche centre fitted inc VAT this is constant from all centres in the UK as PGB has a fixed price policy for all centres. If you require the engine to be stripped to prove cause of fault 40 hours approx �2,000. 4.The picture is that of an engine block from taken of the inside of one of the cars that at present has undergone an independant inspection and awaiting porsches comments.It shows what happens when you get a free steam clean of the cylinder due to a cracked liner (I got a few more but cant seem to upload them on my replies!!). Its a 2000 c2, covered 23k miles not raced, fully serviced at my Porsche centre since new. The independant inspector found the fault not to be due to normal useage. Its not coverd under Porsche warranty, PAG has contributed �0 towards replacement. The owner now wants to install a recon engine and trade in the car. 5. So far no one, i have been contacted by, here in the uk, has had any contribution from PAG if outside the 2 year warranty. 6. In my and the case of the others here in the UK our on board computers have shown no over reving or misuse. 7. I dont disagree that all the engines are inherently flawed nor are they weak but some have been and in these cases all i am asking that Porsche puts up its hands and admits its mistake. I will only report facts nothing more nothing less. I have begun an excell work sheet, and have asked contributors here in the UK to supply me with the reports of the cause of the failures. Sorry Doug i am not a chic All comments are welcome please keep them going

If you cut down on the rhetoric and sensationalism, you will cut down on nasty replies. I would suggest changing the title of the thread to something less doom and gloom end of the world sounding so that you don't get branded as a fruitcake off the bat. I though you WERE a fruitcake . Not raced, but damage not due to normal usage. How was it not "normal usage"? Does this mean the engine was abused, just not in a race? If it truly is the case, I'm not so sure Porsche would be responsible. Was there a PPI before the used car was bought, and did the dealer certify it? If so, there should be resposibility from Porsche. I wouldn't limit it to just UK, though. There's a huge market here in the US. If there is a problem to be found, go where there's a huge number. You may want to get in touch with Scouser, another poster here in the board. He's got a website dedicated to RMS failures. I can't end this post without saying you probably won't find much. But I also wish you luck.

As far as the inspectors report goes "there were no signs within the engine of missuse". Yes the car did have PPI prior to new registration but the car is now 4 years old. I am not limitting it to the UK but those that have been in touch personally are from the UK so far. Scoucer and i are already in touch thanks

My father's 02 996's engine failed at 8000 miles � timing chain failure. It was replaced gratis and the car now has 24,000 miles.

Thank you nick for the info

Good luck with this survey. I don't have a 996, yet, but came to this forum to read up as the magazine European Car has had two 996's blow up on them. They shed no light on the cause of failure but pointed out that this could be a very serious problem for individuals who decide to keep their cars outside of the warranty period. Thanks, Matt

Matthew Could you tell me more about this. Were these cars lonterm testers or readers cars? Have you a link to this article? As for my survey i am meeting tought resistance from Porsche....wonder why????

The article is in the current issue of European Car; it doesn't say much other than that it was a long-term car and it was not abused.

n4das, Do you care to elaborate on what you mean by "tought resistance from Porsche"? I'm curious. Thanks.

Porsche UK refuse to replace engines gratis for out of warrnty cars regardless of the cause. For example, to my knowledge there has never been a UK car fitted with a new engine because of the RMS problem. They just keep replacing the RMS for ever more. Also remember, we only get 2 years warranty not 4. The tough resistance is that the local dealer has to bear the cost of a replacement engine.....even within warranty. In the US, it is my understanding that this is not the case. So the dealers will do everything in their power NOT to replace a faulty engine. Basically, we don't have much to go on in this country....unless of course you took out extended warranty.....but even this doesn't include RMS failure....although I hear that has recently just changed.

The september issue of Excellence magazine partially addresses the issue of 996 engine replacement. See the Tech Notes, page 22. Excellence has also addressed the question about RMS failure albeit on the 986's. This was in the magazine within the past year but I no longer have that issue. Porsche Petes Boxster board has posted a number of RMS failures. Most replaced the seal but other had their engine replaced at no charge. In fact over the past 4 years I can't remember 1 instance where someone posted a message that they had to pay for an engine. All were replaced by the factory. This included, to the best of my recollection, cars in warranty and those outside of warranty. www.ppbb.com; search the archives for "RMS"

bob I have to say that to get your engine replaced by the factory seems to be a hit and miss thing. Some folks get it done totally for free and others have had to make a contribution. There are quite a few people even in the states that have ahd to pay for engines. Scouser Having an extended warranty does not mean that Porsche will replace the engines in the UK. PGB have tried every trick in the book to get out of paying even for those on warranty. PGB as you know want even talk to those who are trying to be helpful and address these issues. The moral of the story...... buy a new Porsche or get a good lawer

Guys just a thought: "The engine required replacement at 6,118 miles. That was surprising, but apparently Porsche was prepared to deal with it" "The old engine was taken to Germany and inspected, and Porsche eventually relayed that the trouble was a failed auxiliary shaft bearing" These are quotes from the european car. http://www.europeancarweb.com/longte..._porscheupdate It begs the question 1. if a long term test car can fail at such a low mileage then what chance do we have as joe public of buying a car that will last? The article goes on to say that the test car was only on the road for 9 out of 12 months. 2. Why is it that our OPCs are NOT "prepared to deal with it". when we have engines go? 3. Why have our engines not been taken to Germany for inspection? Most of us have had to pay for our inspection to be carried out!

Mahen: as I understand the situation on damaged or defective engines, very few dealerships of any brand perform internal engine repairs, as it is more cost effective to replace the engine, send the bad engine back to a well equipped maintenance depot, and then put the repaired engine back into the parts inventory stream. I suspect that Porsche dealership mechanics are neither trained nor equipped to do crankshaft bearing block realignments. Steve 99 996 and various other Porsches

uberXY "prepared to deal with it". What i ment was prepared to deal with the situation and not to actually repair the engine. Sorry about misunderstanding but i just used the quote from the mag

Mahen, I too have a problem with the RMS leaking, car is 98 and done 40K miles, full porsche history etc. I bought the car from an OPC with the extended warranty last october and have done only 1500 miles in it, the warranty I was sold does not cover the RMS, however this was ammended in May (Ithink) this year to now include RMS replacement. My OPC has put in a good will claim that has been turned down and I am now in dispute over this with PCGB direct. Lots of RMS coverage on the Porsche club GB web site under Boxster and 996 pages, please also see my (tispkj) thread regarding 996 reliability and missfire at 4000 rpm, I am sure you have seen this already. Regards

Mahen, I think you hit the nail on the head. If I am British Airways and I spend a lot of money buying a 747 from Boing then I don't expect the engine to fail in its infancy. If it does then Boing would be held responsible. I buy a Porsche, I pay top dollar for the superb engineering. So I don't expect it to fail in its infancy...especially if I have had Porsche service it according to their maintenance recommendations and program. If it does then I expect Porsche to fix it. The problem is two fold. In the US they get 4 years warranty and we only get 2. An awful lot can happen in 2 years! My car has a faulty gearbox and has had 4 RMS. If it was in the US then I would have almost definitely have had a new engine by now and for certain a new gearbox. Secondly, a manufacturing flaw is just that: a fault of the manufacturer. The issue here in the UK is that they PUK "are not prepared to deal with it". So there are lots of us with knackered cars in the UK and they don't give a damn. So you have this: US: * 4 years warranty. * Engines replaced gratis in almost every case. * Excellent service and a helpful OPC. * Government protected (lemon law, 4 yr warranty, litigious society) UK: * 2 years warranty * Engines rarely if ever replaced gratis for out of warranty cars and never for RMS problems regardless of warranty status. * Crap service and a very unhelpful and hard to get to OPC. * No lemon law or for that matter any government help on imported goods. And we are not "yet" a litigious society (but getting there) so they no in most cases they (PUK) will get away with it.

Berny i have to agree with you but also to say that there are "sales of good act" the european version of which is quite comprehensive. The "problem" is that PGB chooses to ignore this LAW..... This course of action, i know so far has cost them a fair amount of money!!! All i really want to know is when will PGB wake up and stop brushing us off with untrained call centre operators?

This RMS thing is really begining to scare me. 993 or 996 as my first 911.........

Well if I was contemplating a 996 or 993 I would take the 993 handsdown as a 97-98 993 is actually worth as much or more than a 996!!! The 993's seemed to have held their resale value much better than the 996 and IMO are built better , from the interior to the materials used, the 993 is just a higher quality car! I'm putting on my flame suit right now.

Could someone explain what "RMS" means? Thanks

Well if I was contemplating a 996 or 993 I would take the 993 handsdown as a 97-98 993 is actually worth as much or more than a 996!!! The 993's seemed to have held their resale value much better than the 996 and IMO are built better , from the interior to the materials used, the 993 is just a higher quality car! It depends upon the year. A '97 C4S and a ''99 C4S in excellent condition are worth around $50K. An '02 C4S in excellent condition retails at around $67K. A '95 coupe in excellent condition retails at $34K, and a '99 coupe in excellent condition retails at $45K. All of these sales numbers are from excellence magazine, August and September editions.

That's tellin' them, sly.

RMS=REAR MAIN SEAL. You really need to do a search on this. There are countless threads relating to RMS.

I own both a pristine 993C4S and the new '04 anniversary 911 and I can tell you that your opinion doesnt hold any water at all regarding build quality, ride, or performance. Sorry, but your wrong.

I think build quality has been improving. I have my doubts about the early 996s. I was considering the purchase of a 1999 but found the build quality of all the cars I drove to be noticeably lower than that of my '93 RS America. I decided to wait until I can afford a newer 996.

I own a 98 993 and a 99 996. As I've stated many times before, I don't see any difference in build quality. They have different strengths and different weaknesses but overall they are very similar. Remember it was the early 996 that shot Porsche to the top (3rd I think) of the JD Powers long term quality list.

The alarmest nature of this board is becoming a real drag. While I recognize that there is a problem...this argument is really becoming quite boring. I've had my share of problems...trust me. I'm sorry that the UK folks are not treated as fairly as the US folks...I don't understand why...but, there just seem to be so many posts of this nature lately and it makes it so I don't want to read the board anymore.

Root-mean-square: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Root-Mean-Square.html Actually it is Rear Main Seal. They tend to leak. Do a search in this forum and you will find more information (and opinions) on the subject than you would ever want to know.

Well I never said anything about ride or performance because most people know the 996 is the better handler and a little better performer but IMO the interior on the 996 is very japanese in design and the switchgear used is a step-down from the 993. Another quality issue is the amount of plastic used in the 996, alot more than the 993, anyway as I stated before this is my OPINION and nothing more so don't tell me my OPINION doesn't hold water! Oh yeah IMO the 993 is a much better looking car as well.

jsonnen, I think those of us that have a lot of experience with both 993s and 996s tend to react fairly aggressively to the negative 996 comments because most of them just aren't true. The switch gear on my 996 is every bit as good as my 993. I tend to like the traditional look of the 993 interior but that's where it ends. You can actually change the radio in a 996 without leaning forward and you can adjust the AC/heater without an owners manual. The dash in my 996 race car has taken a horrible beating (the car doesn't have windows anymore) but has held up very well. The dash/counsel covering on my 993 cab is bubbling up and tearing away in a couple of spots. Not bad but noticable. The door handles and front boot lever are of much higher quality on the 996. I love the 993 but admit to being really irritated by the "the 993 was the last real Porsche" crowd. As far a looks go, I like the looks of a bone stock 993 more than a bone stock 996. Add aero kits and I flip flop but at the end of the day, I love them both. Now about those 944s. I drove a prepared S2 on the track the other day and fell in love. I think there is one in my future. A 951 would be even better. Jim

Jim my apologies to anyone I may have offended but I only stated my opinion as to the differences between the two cars, again these were only my opinions and nothing more. I guess the 993 is a more exclusive car than the 996/ turbo or n/a and maybe because fewer were built the percieved quality is higher IMO but it is interesting to note that the 993's seem to have held their resale value a little better than the 996's and I even though the 993's had the wiring harness issue, it is hardly as bad as the dreaded RMS issue that has plagued the 996 even though it seems only a small number of cars have been affected. I love all Porsche's though not equally, and I feel that the 993 was a better built car and its only my opinion.....nothing more. Here's a couple of shots of my 325 hp 951.

Didnt mean to offend you jsonnen. But if you have spent alot of seat time with both models you would understand where we are coming from. My '04 anniv. has nothing cheap about the interior details or switch gear. In fact the 993 plastic looks cheaper to me when I return to it. That's why I upgraded to the silver package look. They are very different cars in the way they handle, each is unique, and to be appreciated for what they are. But youre right, ooh those wide hips evoke a visceral response! My wife wont let me sell the 993.

Anybody notice the irony here? We're arguing about whether the 996 is "better" than the 993 with a guy who owns a (beautiful) 951. I too find these discussions frustrating, but I can't help but get drawn in. I place the most weight on the opinions of guys who currently own both. Otherwise, the opinon is going to be skewed towards justifying the most recent purchase (myself included). I literally shopped for 911s for 2-3 years, driving multiple 993s (and 964s and 3.2l carreras). Each time I went in with a romanticized idea that the 993 was the ultimate 911, and came out seriously underwhelmed by the driving experience. No, not because it was "hard core", but rather because it was obvious to me that while it had been updated, it was based off of a 20 year old design. Progress is progress. the game moved in those 20yrs. All it took (for my wife and I) was one drive in an '02+ 996 to seal the deal. I still think the 993s are beautiful, although honestly I think the 993 is (understandably) aging, and the 3.2l Carreras are a better looking car. I'd love to have one of the classics in the garage someday, next to the '03. It would be a fun car to spend a sunday afternoon with.

Well I also own a Dinan M5 turbo and a Mini cooper s and have driven both a 996 and 993 and have good friends who own both but it doesn't really matter, as I only stated my opinion, nothing more. Also I think you highlighted the difference between the 996 and the 993 when you said your WIFE and you took one drive, of course the 996 is an easier car to live with day to day and it is a much more advanced car than the 993 (design wise) but it still IMHO isn't a better built car. Just my 0.02 cents....

Oh great, now it's a chick car FWLIW, my wife wanted the 993, and gave me bloody hell for not buying one, because she liked the looks. She liked the way they drove.

You guys gave me a well needed laugh today.

Ditto what PALTING said. Somebody tell me again why this thread is still alive?

Because some noob had concerns and did a search

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif

Let's keep it going, the number of views is exponential. On another note, my '04 anniv. is gettting the Armourfend treatment today before I get any of those nasty stone chips. Kinda like my grandma sealing her sofa in plastic which I hated cause you stuck to it like tape in the summer months. But that sofa still looks new after 40 years.

Seriously though, I am a noob that shares only one thing with you guys (for now anyways ) I have loved 911s all my life. Finally its my time to own one, but I am not going to rush into it right away as I dont know if I want a "Previously enjoyed" one or a new 997 in a year or so.

Some noob who also owns a Aston Martin Vanquish!

No no no, the noob I was referring to is me

ok ok ok. So what's a noob?

A Noob or newbie is someone that is new to the boards. That would be me

I guess that noob would be me and yes i did do the search. But its upto you guys if you want to jump out of a plane with no parachute be my guest...I just think that knowlege about the pros and cons is important. I know what a great car Porsche is and what pleasure it gave me to drive it but when it goes wrong and the fault is not mine and its clearly that of Porsche then Porsche should do the right thing and pay up All i can say is that i have now done me research, no thanks to guys like u and found porsche deficient in may areas including their engines. If you care to check out the the Porsche Club of GB website regarding RMS then you may come to see that porsche are not building quality engines and failures are very high. Finally as for the Aston i have had no problems from that end. When a few years ago my DB7 had a piston that need to be changed, Aston did not make a fuss gave me another car and fixed the problem for free. This is to all those that are still wearing the rose tinted glasses... it may be you next that will need to do the searchs.......

Wow Doc, I appreciate your frustration and concern, having suffered through a 91 C4 911 with numerous factory induced motor issues. I wouldnt own any Porsche without a warranty, factory or private, if it were my sole source of reliable transportation. So there is a way out if you still desire to have a Porsche in your garage and still sleep nights while it seeps. regards, -Richard

These are not "Warranty" issues. This an issue with the reliablity of the design. If you designed a plane with a fault and many people died then carried on building them knowing the fault and not fixing the older planes then you would be in serious trouble. This is essentially what Porsche is doing

I realize that. But for whatever reason Porsche has not been able to totally remedy the problem. I'm willing to bet the 997 will have RMS issues as well. I would still get a warrant in case you need a motor replacement. By the way, of the 4 cars I own, 50% leak (and it isnt the newer ones).

Well guys a quote from a mag: There's an interesting set of statements in the article "996 3.4 Carrera 2" of September 2004 "GT Purely Porsche" mag. Page 114: What to look for "When it come to the 996's water-cooled flat-six, you should pay particular attention to its condition. Oil leaks are common when the seals are changed due to distorted casings....." "Much has also been made of the 996's appetite for engines. A problem with the Lokasil process that sees the highly porous silicon liner cast into the alloy block, has resulted in the liner material part company with the local. The only remedy is a new engine, but Porsche are not exactly playing ball with owners' claims for a replacement powerplant."