Replacement 996 motor out of warranty?

I talked to the mechanic this morning after starting my car yesterday and getting TONS of white smoke. His estimate reads like this: "Tested Wednesday morning, found the engine hydro locked, coolant in the cylinders on the left side. Did not find oil mixed in with the coolant system or coolant in the oil sump. Removed coolant from cylinders in the left bank, started engine, lots of smoke out of left bank, ran on 3-4 cylinders." Mechanic is recommending only fix is new motor for $9,000 plus $1500 for install and remove, plus an estimate of $500 additional for any "incidentals" for a total of $11,000. I called PCNA's Customer Care 800 number this morning only to find that they are on vacation until January 3, 2006. I guess I was going to start by asking them nicely for a new motor and get progressively louder and nastier as the rejections come in. Anyone know where I should start or have a sympathetic contact at PCNA or Porsche AG? Any help on whom to call or what to do would be greatly appreciated. I cannot believe they expect me to pay that kind of money to replace a motor they KNOW has design problems. Thanks.

Strange first post. I hope it works out for you.

What year is your car? How far out of warranty are you? How many miles are on the engine? All these will be a factor in what they do (if anything).

unfortunately calling 1-800-POR-SCHE and asking them to be sympathetic for you, is about as pointless as asking a bum for a $100,000 loan.. i tried this with both my engines, and they politely told me to "**** off" basically, go buy a new porsche with a warranty if you are having problems... unfortunately your only option if you're out of warranty is to shell out the $11,000+.. i tried every other approach with 4 dealers and they all told me the same thing.. since my car was out of warranty, there was nothing they could do and i'd have to shell out the full amount.. even though the problems with the engines were all internal failuires caused by faulty manufacturing, they couldn't help me.. although they appeared sympathetic.. that didn't exactly help me when i got the bill.. one of the reasons i'll be selling my porsche ra few months before the 2 year warranty for my replacement engine/replacement tranny goes out.. as my extended warranty company apparently just went out of business like all the others i've seen... :I sorry to hear, wish i had better news for you.. but it happens, and unfortunately this is the risk we all take have when driving a 996 out of warranty... it's nothing you did wrong, these engine malfunctions are all caused by internal failuires, nothing you did wrong that you could have prevented, so don't blame yourself for anything done that could have caused this... these cars were meant to be driven and driven hard, unfortunately, the engine sometimes grenades on a small percentage of these vehicles... and unfortunately you like others are in that small percentage... ..and from what i've seen, there's really no warranty companies that will warranty a 6 year old porsche 996 anymore.. the 3 i know that did are all out of business/bankrupt.. CPO really is the ONLY way to go when buying used.. it's well worth it.. i'd easily pay $10,000+ for the CPO if I chose to ever buy another porsche.. (which I will not be doing, unless god forbid, they get their act together and start giving a sh*t about their customers.. or stop playing "huh?" with the rms/engine issues..) - 46,000 miles driven.. on my 3rd engine thusfar..

I have a 2001 C2 Cab - 31,000 kms - just out of warranty (06/05). My mechanic spoke to his friend at the Porsche dealership and managed to get 75% of the new engine replacement covered before I took delivery of the car. Just for some background - my mechanic has a very good relationship with the local Porsche dealership as he sends A LOT of business there. Please do not ask for names as I do not want to get anyone into trouble so I will not give it out. Just trying to show that they can be reasonable. How far out of warranty is your car? If it is a few years out, I could see why they would turn you away. If it just expired, I would not call PCNA, but go to a dealership and ask if something can be done through them, again if you do not have a relationship with them, they may not want to assist. I think it is better to have stuff like this go through a dealer rather than have a customer call looking for money. Just my 2 cents.

Can't believe this is your first post??? Feel bad for you but you really need to provide ore info first before anybody can attempt to guide you in the correct way. What year/model? Miles? What owner # are you? When was the original in service date? Was the car CPO? Service done by dealer or by your or a local garage? History of any problems?

Thanks for all the info and help. I have been a spectator on this forum for over a year now, but never had any help I could contribute. My car is a 1999 Carrera 4 cabriolet. 53,000 miles. Manufactured 1/99 but I don't know when it went into service. I was told I am the second owner after the lease return. I bought in August 2004 with 44,000 miles. Non-CPO. I know where the car was originally purchased and serviced, but they would not give me any of the records even after a call from my local Porsche dealer and my attorney. All I wanted to know was if the 45,000 mile service was completed and they would not tell me. Dicks. Apparently this is common thought. As far as I know, it is the original motor. When I bought the car, my PPI revealed that it needed a new coolant tank (shocker there), new oil pan and skid plate (previous owner had skid a speed bump or something) and that was it. No RMS, no oil leaks, no other problems. With almost 45000 miles, I thought I was in the clear of engine failure. Until Tuesday, the only problem I had with the car was the O2 sensors which were replaced about 6 months ago at an independent Porsche mechanic. Then I drove the car home on Friday from work, 3.3 miles, where it sat in the garage until Tuesday when I started it and got all the smoke. I knew right away I was screwed. I spoke to the guy at my local dealership today and he said that if I am in fact the 2nd owner and all of the service has been completed that I may have a chance of getting a replacement. Contrary to what I have read on some of these forums, he says PCNA is NOT slow recalling these motors and they do not admit that the engines are flawed from the start. He said if I am more than the 2nd owner, of if all of the service has not been done, than I am screwed. This is the 3rd porsche I have owned (86' 930 turbo and 89' 930 turbo) and the only reason I bought this one is that I thought they had it right. I did my research, found one that was solid, and still got FUC#@D. I can tell you that before I spend $11,000 to put a new engine in my car that I will hire guys to stand in front of my local Porsche dealer and hand out flyers saying that Porsche does not stand behind it's crappily designed products. I am not above making a spectacle out of myself if I think I am right. It amazes me how blazze everyone is about it too - "they do not sell parts, only new motors." ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Like since you own a Porsche, you do not mind spending $11K on a 50,000 "service." If this was a Hyundai, I would have it back from the mechanic already with a bill for $800. Unbelievable. BobPorsche996 - you obviously have too much $$ my friend. I can assure you that if I get stuck with paying for this motor that went bad while sitting in my garage that I will NEVER own another Porsche again. And that will break my heart as I have owned many other types of sports cars that all pale in comparison to my 911, but I will not reward that type of customer service with another purchase - warranty or not. Anyway, that is the end of my ranting for today. Hopefully all of this info will help you to help me with some good advice about how to proceed. Thanks again.

I don't have any advice, but I do wish you luck and I'm very curious to hear what Porsche does to help you.

Joe, I am with you there and can understand the frusteration you feel. Many people on this board haven't had to shell out deca thousands for a new engine so can't comprehend the feeling you get, when you know you did nothing wrong, and you have to pay out your *** for porsche's faulty engineering.. i as well will NEVER buy a porsche again, because i truly believe they won't ever change.. they still won't even admit to RMS, and even developed the 997 with RMS, so i've lost all confidence or faith in the company that they even give a sh*t about the customer... the thing that upsets me the most, is not only do they make more profit than any car company in the world when selling you a car with a faulty engine, they also make a fortune when selling you a $10,000 used engine, that blew up, due to their original faulty design.. driving the car with what i've been through, i just have visions of the execs laughing at all this in their boardrooms.. I have my porsche still, because it is an enjoyable car to drive... and because i have another year left on the warranty, so if/when the 3rd engine blows up, it won't be in my sight.. i have no faith in the 996 engine anymore, along with no faith in the car company behind it.. but if i've paid this much already for it.. might as well enjoy it while i can without having to worry for another few months... once again, sorry to hear.. if you have a 99, youi're chances of getting a dealer to pay, are pretty much nil.. i have a 99 and mine went out at 44,000 miles the first time.. internal failuire.. it just started smoking on the freeway and grenaded on me.. cause, faulty designed engine from the creation.. it was a ticking timebomb... the one thing to consider is, once you do get another engine, is that you do actually have a 2 year warranty on the new engine.. so if it goes out again, they WILL cover it.. but ONLY if you install it at a porsche dealer.. so make sure you get it done there.. i wish you luck, and you probably won't get much sympathy here, as many of these members who haven't had to pay out of their pocket for engine replacements seem to think it's a non-issue or ignore it hoping it won't happen to them... wish i could give you better advice, but i spent months with different porsche dealers, and pretty much gave up and just took it in the *** and waited for the bill.. porsche unfortunately won't bail you out.. especially with a 99.. good luck with whatever you may have in the future...

Man, this car is sounding more "Ford" like by the day.

Did you buy it from a Porsche dealer? Not to be an ***, but without checking the service records and buying a car out of warranty, why do you feel that Porsche owes you a new engine? I know you did a PPI, but you will not be the first person to have a PPI steer you wrong. (preach over) I would go to a different Porsche dealer for one. It sounds like they have some issues, if they will not release the service details. In NYC, the variation of service is amazing. I will even admit, that I was wrong about one that I thought was a pack of asses, only to go above and beyond the call of duty. I would also work with the dealer. Walking in ready for a battle, is not a winning plan. I would work the forums and find what dealer and what person you should talk to. Where in Cali are you? I would also run a CarFax on the car. This should show you where all the major service work was done. Then, you can call each dealer individually. You might not like what you find.

I don't want to be an *** either and I really feel for those of you that have had problems but I've never understood why people think Porsche should fix cars that are out of warrantee. The fact is they, and you, have no idea how this car was driven before you bought it. The guy that leased it could have DEed it every weekend. He could have rodded around in it before warming it up. He may have revved the engine when first started. He could have enjoyed downshifting at high speeds to see if the rear tires would lock up or to see how high he could get the tack. If it was leased, why would he care. I'm not saying the PO did any of these things but how is Porsche suppose to know. They make a car that some owners love to baby but many more love to run the crap out of. When I instruct at the track, I encourage people not to DE their car unless they can financially and emotionally walk away from it. When people ask me about buying a Porsche, I tell them they need to be financially and emotionally able to live with owning an expensive sports car. Even if it's used and doesn't cost a lot it's still an expensive sports car. With a Porsche, I think that means having an extra $10k in your pocket at all times. For a Ferrari, it's a lot more. For a NSX it's probably less. If not, buy something more sensible. Jim p.s. This opinion does not extend to RMS issues. That is a design flaw and Porsche should eat every single one until they figure it out.

You should be able to source an engine cheaper at a wrecking yard. always hard to hear these stories when considering buying a porsche myself

Wow, $10k to drive around on the streets to the mall. I guess the trend now is, the more expensive the less reliable. I'm starting to notice this with German cars these days, though purchasing used is a risk as you stated.

I agree.

Just out of curiosity, why did your engine fail? Also on a different note, on the RMS issue, why hasn't PAG been sued over this? I would think this would be a classic class action kinda thing? I mean its a well known design flaw that they have attempted to correct numerous times with "field fixes" Someone educate me?

This is such a shame. I could live with some repair failure, and fully expect to budget about 2 grand a year for the unknown repair. But Engine Failure of a car that's 80 k new at 44,000 miles? Totally unacceptable.

well the problem comes down to when these faulty engines are diagnosed, they are all diagnosed as being caused by being faulty engines from the factory.. it's one thing, if an owner did something to cause these engines to grenade, but from what i've seen in 99% of the causes of the blown engines, is that the engine was out of spec or something was wrong with it straight from germany that was "porsche's" fault.. essentially you are paying out your *** for their mistake... that's the difference.. hell, look at all the kids in hondas that fix them up and drive around like complete morons.. people buy them used with 150,000 miles and have no problems at all... bmw stood up to the plate, realized they f**ked up with the m3 and recalled the engines/paid for them... porsche on the other hand could care less about the fact that they f**ked up.. that's the point of it all and i think his, my and the others frusteration..

You have seen 99% of all engine failures and been let in on the EXACT cause of the problem? Really? Is that what you believe? You honestly beleive that all the hondas abused by the ricer crowd have no problems? There is a reason honda is the most stolen car in the country....repalcement parts! The difference between us and them is that we actually pay for our parts not take them from anothers car. Come on Bob, I thought you were over this. Sounds like your PTSD is kicking in.

I've got a 45k mile 3.4L engine for sale that was running flawlessly when it came out of my 2001 C2 996 (converted the car to a 3.6L engine). $3750 plus shipping from Charleston, SC and its yours. Engine is at Autometrics Motorsports currently. Has the PMNA oiling upgrade installed (not a cheap upgrade). If you want the ECU and harness as well, its an extra $1250. The ECU has been reprogrammed by Porsche Motorsports to make higher than stock horsepower using 100 octane fuel. Wouldn't recommend it for a street car however. Let me know if you're interested in the engine and I'll get you in touch with Gordon at Autometrics.

LV, the dealerships i've brought the engine to have all given me the same answer, that the problem was an internal engine failuire that was not the result of anything that could have been caused from driving... essentially a ticking time bomb from the factory.. engines these days are not supposed to grenade.. what other cars besides the m3, which bmw has recalled and paid for has these types of engines problems with such low mileage? i thought so.... in terms of over this. i'm over my situation, it just upsets me no end when i see others having the same engine blowsups over and over again, because i relate to them... and it brings me back to all the anger i felt at porsche knowing i had to pay for their mistakes in creating a faulty engine...

There is a 3.6L with approx 6,000 mi. on Ebay for $6,999 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...QQcmdZViewItem ) and a 3.4L with 59,000+ mi for $6,499 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...QcmdZViewItem) . You also see them from other sources on a regular basis.

I find that very hard to believe. If that was the case and it was stated in writing or a verbal from PAG/PCNA, then trust me, the engine would have been replaced. If the company claims full responsibility and stated that the engine was a flaw that would lead to a blown engine then guess what? They are on the hook. See why it is hard to believe to believe your statement? And by the way, you are NOT over your bitter taste of buying a multiple owner, wholesaled, Ford dealership sold, unknown history lemon. Unless you (general) are the only owner and have all service done at the dealer or documented then you have no case for a claim in my opinion. Why? As many have stated, you just have NO way to know how the car was treated. Period.

See this is what a good forum does for one another..

yeal, i am not afraid of buying a used 996, or drop a 3.6 in pre-02 996 no more

Dropping a 3.6L into an early car is a WHOLE lot harder than most people think and a lot more expensive. I'd say go for it if you're building a racecar and starting with a very worn out '99 C2 996 that was acquired cheaply. Otherwise, it's cheaper to buy a 3.6L 996 initially. If you're putting a street car back together and don't want to buy a new engine from Porsche, I'd go with a used 3.4L everytime. Reflash the ECU, add headers and a cold air intake along with the aerokit rear wing from an early cup car (gives a little more of a ram air effect at speed) and you'll have very close to the power of a stock 3.6L. It's much easier to drop in an engine than rewire the entire car which is what you're looking at to properly fit a 3.6L engine into the car. I've been down that road and had I known then what I know now, I'd have spent the extra money upfront to buy a 3.6L or would have spent half what I did on my '01 and bought a worn out '99 and rebuilt it with a 3.6L. Either way, I'd have a ton less cash in my 996.

bmw stood up to the plate, realized they f**ked up with the m3 and recalled the engines/paid for them... porsche on the other hand could care less about the fact that they f**ked up.. that's the point of it all and i think his, my and the others frusteration.. They really did, and warrantied every one of those engines for an additional 6 years/100,000 miles. Are you telling me that the early 996's (99-01) had as many engine falures as the 01-02 m's? And Porsche hasn't done anything about it? Other than the RMS problems this is the first time I'm hearing about this.

And then after the 6yr/100K (which by the way is the same as the CPO) what do you do? This could go on forever. The manufacturer has to cut the strings at some point. Agree?

An advantage of getting engine replaced by dealer is that it would be warantied(2 years?) so there is a safety bubble there. If you'll get it from a wreck yard or privateer who knows what can happen. It's sad to say your in this situation and wish you the best but it's getting really tiring to hear p-cars doing that. PAG-please come up to bat. Regards. Mike

I understand what you guys are saying. Buying out or warranty is always a risk. I do not feel that Porsche OWES me an engine per se, but I think that they can at least have the decency to sell the fkn parts I would need for the engine without having to buy a new one. There is nothing wrong with my MAF sensor, the intake or exhaust manifolds, nothing wrong with the cams, the pistons, etc. so why should I have to buy everything? That is my main gripe. They know that when the head fails they are going to tell me to pound sand for the whole engine and I do not think that is fair. Sell me a cylinder head or a head gasket, or put out a bulletin so a dealer knows how to fix my problem. My biggest objection is that their answer is "just buy a new engine." I will keep you guys posted.

Oh by the way, when my engine failed, it was sitting in the garage. I drove the car home on Friday and it sat until Tuesday when I fired it up and got all the smoke. If I was driving the car hard at a club rally or a track, i would not balk at it being screwed up. But for the car to have an engine failure after a 3.3 mile commute home from work is a JOKE in my opinion. Thanks for the offer of the motor. I have a promising lead from my local dealer so I will keep you guys posted.

I would like to know why Porsche does not sell engine parts for the 996........... or the aftermarket....

THAT is the million dollar question. Do they think they are the only ones qualified to rebuild them? My guess is that there is so much profit and so little trouble in making people buy new engines that they just go that route for simplification.

Seems like a golden opportunity for a good rebuild shop to take on. There are some shops that could go as far as diagnosing the problem and creating a solution. Especially at 10k each, if would really be worth it to reach an agreement with a few porsche wreckign yards and start buying up cores, and get to work on them. Plus if you have the right contacts, having new pistons, rods, cylinders and bearings etc manufactured from the originals, is not that big of a proposition. As far as the guys on here being really arrogant and saying it is your fault for buying the car/driving the car, You're right. I guess they should just burn them after a certain mileage since they are gonna blow up anyway. And, Yes, if it is a design flaw, it should be covered. I can understand Porsches thinking that if it is out of warranty, it is not covered. After all, they said it would last throught the warranty, and that's it. Not doing something about it and not providing a "fix" to prevent it, is not taking care of the people who bought their 70-80k cars. It's a business decision, and frankly a very stupid one. But the fact that they only rebuild them at the factory and have not encouraged aftermarket parts, only makes it that much harder for them to cover it. If it cost them 2500 to fix, it might have been covered, but at probably 6-7k, I am sure they wouldn't. Plus like was said before, when do you cut it off? But if they designed a "Fix" for it that would make the engines last 100k, then they could offer the repair or rebuild within 100k, 1 per car if needed. just my 2 cents, but I always think corporate responsibility should rank the same as profits in importance.

So when you buy a new Porsche does the dealer tell you: I can sell you a turn signal. a door, a windshield, etc.. but no engine parts....... and after warranty: if the engine blows you will have to replace it like you do on a light bulb.

Noooo, Just like severy other salesman they will tell you it will last forever if that's what they think you want to hear.

If you're telling me that ANY engine problem on a 996 requires a complete engine replacement, these cars are going to become almost unsaleable used. They do sell engine parts for 993's and 964's, what makes this engine so "special"? That has got to be the dumbest marketing decision I've ever heard. I truly love this car, but it looks like it's time to look at older models if this is the case.

Oh that's smart.

I loved my 996 until last week. I would search for something else. The 993 is still a great looking car.

They are, and so are 996's. How on earth does Porsche get away with not selling engine parts?

Actually the 996 engine replacement program is great for a lot of reasons. 1) The price is dirt cheap. Don't think so, price a 993 rebuild at your local independent. $7k for a new engine will look pretty good. 2) You get a completely rebuilt and updated engine, built by Porsche in Germany and carrying a Porsche warrantee. I'm a big fan of independents but try and get one to give you a two year warrantee. 3) The engine comes with all new or rebuilt accessories including A/C, altenator, etc. 4) Porsche gets all the failed engines for R&D. Other points: You don't have to swap an identical engine to get a core credit. I traded a 3.4 for a 3.6. I'm sure if you look around you can get any part you want to rebuild yourself. Just my 2 cents worth. Jim

Well those are some good points, thanks for sharing them!

And i have to say JIMB has a sweet ride : ) though I never see it in person but his posts regarding his rebuilt is such a great read. Mike

I am one of the fortunate ones who got an engine goodwilled by Porsche on an out of warranty car. My car was about four years old and had 22k miles on it and nothing funny showed up in the computer. In addition, everytime the coolant light came on, I took it into a dealership to get it fixed and documented. Once the engine mixed, it sat at the dealership all summer, but I ended up with a rebuilt from Porsche at no cost. The dealer I worked with really sucked, but they had a great mechanic they stole from another dealer and he championed my cause. These catastrophic failures are definitely Porsche's dirty little secret.

i used to have all sorts of worries about my heavily tracked C2. it was JimB who convinced me that just drive the damn thing. if things should blow up, don't rebuilt, just replace the whole motor, it's about same price as a 993 rebuilt.

I totally agree with Dell. Sorry, but plz stop whining. All cars brake down now and then. It is a delicate and very high quality machine, but it has to be treated well and if you don't know your cars history, you don't know if this is the case. BTW white smoke sounds like coolant is burnt. Isn't the problem on your engine a simple seal problem? Why change the whole engine? ...or am I completely wrong? Porsche Cab C4, 2000

I think you should have been VERY suspicious, that it needed a new oil pan after the previous owner skid a speed bump "or something" If I had a hard landing I would have checked that imediately and replaced the pan and checked out the engine.Why didn't the last owner do that??? I think your car was abused by the previous guy (leasee).I hope things work out for you and you keep us posted about how this is resolved.

PAG/PCNA also says that RMS isn't an issue or even on the radar as being a concern. As we all know, that is not the case. Does that mean Porsche is on the hook for RMS and owes everyone a new engine due to faulty design? As said, both of my engine failuires were diagnosed by porsche as due to faulty manufacturing. Do you have the same to say about RMS as well? I suppose that's the owners fault as well... ---

There's some flawed logic here ... 993 engines, generally, do not have catastrophic failures the way the 996 engines do ... if one needs to be rebuilt, it's usually a money shift or some other fluke occurrance. The one fatal flaw in the 993 engine is the secondary air passages that get clogged on the 96-98 cars (which is why I have a 95) and even though that can require a top-end rebuild to open the passages, clogged passages only cause the car to fail emissions, they don't affect how the engine runs at all. If you don't have to get the OBD2 test, the car will be fine. Eventually, a 993 engine will wear out its valve guides, just as other earlier 911 engines do. And a top-end rebuild on a 993 typically runs about $5k or so. You rarely have to touch the bottom end of a 993 engine unless you are the cause of the rebuild by making a mistake. Buying a new factory 993 engine is hugely expensive because those engines are handbuilt by one guy at the factory from the bottom up, not mass-produced the way the 996 engines are. Last I heard, a new 993 engine was $35k. What irks me -- and I have owned a 99 996 as well as about 12 other earlier 911s -- is the prospect of paying for a new 996 engine and to have that one fail down the road as well, that is unacceptable to me. Particularly since the engine can fail without being abused. I lost an RMS on my 99 at 32k miles. Luckily for me, the engine was in tolerance and all it needed was a new seal. But if I had the cylinder sleeve problem, due to a manufacturing flaw, and had to shell out for a whole new engine as a result, I would have been livid. I mean, come on, a certain percentage of these engines are failing due to their design and/or problems with the manufacturing process. That means you can buy a 996, maintain it exactly as Porsche wants you to, never overrev or abuse it, and still walk out in the morning, put the key in and cost yourself $10k. And you can pay that $10k, faithfully maintain that engine and then find yourself out another $10k in two years when the warranty's up. That would not happen on any earlier 911 engine. Has it occurred to anyone that it's interesting that a new 993 engine costs $25k more than a 996 engine, but the price of the car didn't decrease when the 996 came out? Every 911 engine has had its flaws ... pulled head studs on the 2.7, broken head studs on the 3.0, valve guides on the 3.2, cylinder/case leaks on the 964, SAI passages on the 993 ... but none of those problems required buying an expensive brand new engine with the same inherent flaw as the original engine. That's why as much as I enjoyed the 996 I had, I likely won't buy another one. It's just way too much of a crapshoot and I don't want to own a car that requires having a warranty due to a design flaw that Porsche won't own up to or address. How many times have I read on this forum "I would never own a 996 that wasn't under factory warranty?" That's just a damn shame.

"That's why as much as I enjoyed the 996 I had, I likely won't buy another one. It's just way too much of a crapshoot and I don't want to own a car that requires having a warranty due to a design flaw that Porsche won't own up to or address. How many times have I read on this forum "I would never own a 996 that wasn't under factory warranty?" That's just a damn shame." Boy I sure hope that someone at Porsche NA reads this forum, because that is a damn shame. One of this car's greatest attributes was it's "reliable race car" mystique. If everyone refuses to own the newer models once they get 6-7 years old then they're just like every other car manufacturer. In 5 years we'll be seeing 10-11 year old 911's for 15k, and this will kill the value of the brand. For cars like these their ability to retain value helps sales throughout the ownership chain. I don't have an anwser on how to fix this, but owning up to catastophic failures that are a design flaw would be a big start.

Please direct me to a shop that only charges $5K for a high quality top end rebuild . They'll have all my business going forward. I've never heard of a 993 top end rebuilt costing less than $7K, unless you do the work yourself. That's not much less than a complete replacement for a 996.

The RMS issues are Porsches dirty little secret. Catastrophic failures are not.....they are extremely rare. I have a friend who is a Porsche dealer service manager. His dealership (a fairly high volume shop) has seen very few M96's fail. RMS is a problem, but these engines are not "failing" at the high rates that some on this board imply.

Are the 996 Turbos and GT3's having the same engine issues??

They have a different engine so the RMS issue is almost unheard of in their motors.

I will be the first to admit, having two engines go out on me at under 45,000 miles that engine failuire is NOT a common failuire.. all i'm saying is, that it "DOES" happen.. and when it does happen, most all of the time they are caused by faulty design from the factory.. and in this day and age, there is no excuse for engines to grenade like the do.. and the only company that released a car that did this as of recently (m3), replaced all the faulty engines free of charge.. (bmw ) can someone explain how one of the cylinders can fall out of the sleeve lining with 8,000 miles on it on an almost brand new engine? and how coolant just happens to mix with oil, inside the internal engine? I don't see how any kind of driving or negligent service could cause this to happen.. the porsche dealer diagnosed the problems as saying nothing could have been done to cause or prevent this from happening.. they just happened, and unfortunately i received faulty engines from the factory.. but since i was out of warranty, there was nothing i could do, but ante up $11k to 13k a pop.. driving a 996 is like playing russian roulette... just have $15,000 in the bank in reserve, because you never know, it "can" happen.. unlike some other cars, where the odds are more like 1 in 1000.. the thing that irks me the most, is that after all of this time, after 7 years of R&D, porsche still retained basically the same engine for the 997 with the same inherint problems.. with all the money they have made and being the most profitable car company in the world, there's just no excuse for their lack of care for customers, or anything else they put out on the market... it seems the more they make, the less they care about the customers.. and no the gt3, tt doesn't appear to have any engine flaws.. if i were to get a porsche, i wouldn't even look at a c2/c4, considering how reasonable a 2001 996 twin turbo can be gotten for nowadays.. they are very reliable and good deals now that the 997tt is months away from the mass public..

there ARE GT3 that suffered from RMS leak, but it is rarer than M96 engines.

My local specialty Porsche shop has an opinion about the whole 996 engine situation. Just paraphrasing what they told me is that Porsche does know about a higher rate of failure on the 996 engines and therfore have priced the rebuilt engines to be so inexpensive that it is cheaper to just replace the engine than to sue Porsche for the problem. He told me a new 993 engine in a crate is around $50k vs 9K for the 996. His attitude (of course he is playing with my money) is that if I ever have to replace the engine it shouldn't bother me because of the "low" price from Porsche. On a happier note a friend of mine did blow his engine and Porsche was very accomodating and paid around 75% of the replacement cost. BTW my friend beat the crap out of his engine and did over rev it at the trackand it was a few months out of warranty. That was pretty encouraging to me.

Big difference. BMW had a known flaw that was causing their E46 M3 motor to grenade (and large numbers of them failed). The M96 has never been shown to have such a flaw. M96 failures are exceedingly rare. You seem to hate the 996 as 99% of your post are negative (no offense intended, just an observation). If the car gives you that much grief, why not sell it? Life is too short to carry that much negative energy around (my opinion of course).

Thanks FLT and Mooty. There is so much BS in this thread that I wouldn't know where to start addressing it so I think I'll just ignore it and move on. I'll part with a shot of my stock class 996 somehow managing to win another race without blowing up.

Great pic Jim!!!! Is that front R wheel airborne? Very sweet.

Darn JimB why you had to put a pic of a red GT3 behind you : (. JK : ). Just awesome : ) !!! MIke

Some suggestions that may help. First you can call the PCNA number and see what warranty work was done if you have not triggered teh system with your engine failure complaint. Second if that did not/does not work, I would suggest contacting the previous owners ( try the info from CARFAX) and ask what work was done. If there was an RMS or other major work, note the date time and mileage. This work may have "set up" subsequent failure and if it was say 3 years ago, you may have a better case for your appeal to PCNA. BTW when was your last schedued maintenance and where was it done? IF it was done at the dealer inquestion RECENTLY you again have more information for your appeal. Next I would try to find the name of the PCNA zone REP and not go thru the dealer if possible. Remember your delaer may have a conflict of interest in your case if they providied service for your car previously. If he/she presents your case to PCNA they may not do it to your best interest. Next when these avenues fail, try to escalate slowly and cautiously. A partial credit to parts, a large trade in allowance towards a new or newer porsche are all options and generally speaking victories. Decide what you want to get, would accept, and would feel violated by ahead of time. Remember the actual cost of the engine is likely 5K even a "full credit" trade-in allowance toward a new car is basically a 8-10k credit to you but likely only costs Porsche about 1-3K. A base Cayman is only 60+K and a 99 996 may bring 38K as a full trade-in and leave 22k to cover for a cayman whereas your 38K car plus 8 K for the repair still leaves you a 38K car with a questionable history. Obviously the numbers are higher for a CAB ( it was a cab right?)

Don't worry Mike, the GT3 didn't stay right behind me for long. Actually the GT3 is an amazing car. Usually I'm about even with them on the straight but this one was faster. My car is usually faster in the corners. I'm not sure how I got away from him. He might have had a problem. Oh yea, for the 993 guys that have dropped in to tell us how great their cars are. Well, they are but on this day we out qualified and beat a Euro 993 RSCS and two 993 TTs. More s. The RSCS did beat us in the enduro. I had a shifter problem but he me might have beat me anyway. They are great cars. My point in all this. 996s are great cars. Very much deserving of the 911 badge. Stop bitching and drive. Jim

I have a 2002 M3 which I bought CPO from a dealer and I do know that when I brought it in and had the service history checked after my purchase that it had been done in Oct 2004 at no cost by the previous dealer at cost to BMW. (I didn't know of the dirty secret rod bearing failures in the 2002 M3's at the time of purchase). Also I do have a 4yr/100k warranty or whatever the current CPO warranty is on the car which will cover the vehicle plus the dealer has said that if the repair needs to be done again (which has happened on some M3's) then BMW has instructed them to repair them at their cost again! So that is some comfort knowing that at least the manufacturer in this case BMW has recognized their problems (its due to the increased rpm of the S54 engines and length of the rods/bearing in quesiton) and stood by a fix for them...which I hear also included discounting engines to dealers for replacement too as well. As the current owner of a pre-owned 996; I haven't had any problems. <knock on wood> but I do pray that there will be no hidden defects in the future to interfere with my love of my P-car. I do feel for those that have and both sides of the argument have pros and cons. I just think that PAG/PCNA could have handle it a lil differently and a lil better especially when this seems not to be just 1 or 2 guys out of the blue every year saying hey my 996 just died on me while sitting in traffic or something. Just my 2 cents since folks were comparing the M3 problems with the 996 and I happen to own both.

"...With a Porsche, I think that means having an extra $10k in your pocket at all times. For a Ferrari, it's a lot more. For a NSX it's probably less. If not, buy something more sensible. Jim" i gave the same advice to friend looking at a 996 for less than half of it's original sticker. even though youre buying it for $35k the replacemnet parts and service costs are still comensurate w/ a $80,000 dollar car! this is the biggest reason i lease today vs. buyng - especially a p-car. good luck to the original poster. i'd go with a factory rebuilt mill, but then you've got a well-worn gearbox that could do the same in the near future. mine failed at 45k miles.

I agree that Porsche should handle the RMS issue in a manner similar to BMW's solution. The RMS is a known flaw and Porsche should pay for all of them. IMHO, they should provide every owner of an M96 car with a 100,000 mile RMS warranty. However, there is no engine flaw (that I have heard of) that is causing M96's to "grenade".

I just posted in the 997 forum that I've never had an RMS issues with either my 2001 or my 2004, that is until I received a phone call from the dealer saying that I had an RMS issue with my 2004. Interesting to note that I never had an oil leak in the car (33,000 miles) until now. I've been off from work for the past 3 weeks on vacation, something I haven't done in about 6 years. For the most part the car sat in the garage during that time. I'm convinced if I would have been driving the car I never would have had an RMS issues... but who knows?? In a way I'm glad it happened now under warranty. Because if it happens again, I ain't paying for it. C'est la vie Rob

Hi - first post here. I've been following Joe's posts on another forum and I'm very interested to see the outcome, as I just bought a 2003 996 C2. It came with 13k miles on the odometer and a single previous owner (lease, which made me a little nervous). I have about 12 months and plenty of miles on the original warranty, so concerns like this will determine whether or not I keep it beyond the factory warranty or move on to something else. FWIW, I had a 2002 M3 (bought new) that was covered under the 6 yr / 100k mile extended motor warranty. I never had any problems with it, but sold it after 1 year (7k miles) to finance a new home.

I should find out something tomorrow. I will let you guys know.

Guys, it's simple: if the car is out of warranty (bumper-to-bumper, drivetrain, etc), we are out of luck. If Porsche offers to comp any portion of the service, then kudos to them. I recognize that this RMS issue seems rather prevalent from anecdotal evidence on this forum. However, it would be interesting to note the exact percentage of cars that suffer from an RMS issue and subsequently require a new engine. Part of the problem with drawing any conclusions from this forum is that most members are either guys looking for mods are guys looking to resolve their problems. There is a much larger percentage of 996 owners who do not ever track or mod their cars and 'may' rarely ever have problems. Only Porsche can know this data and clearly they are not sharing. Taking a service technician's anecdotal evidence from one dealer in one part of the country only adds fuel to the fire. Is there a solution? No. Life itself is a crapshoot. I have driven all manner of cars and not one of them was ever perfect. If something breaks, fix it. I mean, heck, for 10k, you are getting a new engine AND another 2 years of warranty. Since a CPO typically prices out at 2500 from the dealer, 7500 ain't too bad for a REPLACEMENT Porsche motor. I mean, these cars do often cost as much as $100k or more! 10% of MSRP for a replacement engine for a car in which the engine is 90% of the excitement ain't too bad! On an aside, I love the comparisons to 1.8L Honda motors. Go buy one if you love their efficiency and reliability. Sometimes, passion costs. Frankly, if you go by my relationship with my girlfriend, passion cost a lot! ADDENDUM: I am not kidding....not five seconds ago just after submitting this post, one of my coworkers comes in and complains about her Toyota Avalon that just needed it's engine replaced after 30k miles. Pie in the sky, fellas, that engines from the Japanese last forever too. I guess we Porsche drivers just need to accept that sometimes things break...sometimes more than we would like.

Darn JimB. Now your 2nd pic shows more cars in front of the red GT3. OK you finally hit the last nail in the coffin for me. What's next 15 more cars coming on 3rd pic? Why don't you just bury me upside down too? Wait a minute I sleep facing down. My bad. Great pics dude : ). Regards. MIke

Mike, Take a look at the cars in the picture. Next to me is a euro 964 cup car, behind me is a real euro 993 RSCS, next is a very fast, very modified RSA and finally a decked out 3.6L turbo. All driven by very good drivers. The GT3 was close to stock. Just some suspension stuff I think. It's pretty impressive that it's even in the picture. Like I said before, the GT3 is an amazing car. IMHO the best street car ever built by Porsche. Get off this board and go drive around. Jim

Yeah Jim -weather in San Francisco has been kinda crappy so haven't taken her out yet and yes I'm bored and hovering around the best forum in the world : ). You know I was just joking right Jim: )? Regards. MIke

Mike, I thought you were serious! And no complaining about the weather. Remember where I'm at. Jim

So what's the verdict?

JimB-don't tell me you'll do ice racing too? I'm so not worthy : (. Regards. Mike

UPDATE: Well, today I spoke to the guy at Circle Imports. He said his district manager (the guy who he informed about my problem) requested to see my service records, specifically whether or not I have proof of an oil change during my ownership. I went down there and gave him all of the paperwork from my PPI (which cost over $500 at a Porsche Dealer), and the reciepts and description of ALL of the work that was done after the PPI to make the car perfect. The only repair I did not do was a RMS leak which was very minor and to this day it has never leaked a drop on the ground. He then tried to contact MotorWorks in Chicago (the dealer who originally sold and serviced the car) but they also told him to pound sand, but they told him the car was serviced "regularly" by a "very good customer" and he turned the job of obtaining the records over to the district manager. I am not getting my hopes up at all but at least they are going to look things over and examine the cars' history before telling me "NO." Mine IS an early 1999 (manufacture date listed at 11/98) so maybe it was one of the ones that was re-sleeved early on and has failed again? Who knows. As for the specific problem, they just said "it needs a new motor." I will try to find out specifically what type of failure it is, but another mechanic said it sounds like a slipped sleeve. Keep your fingers crossed - I will write more as info comes in.

Guys, it's simple: if the car is out of warranty (bumper-to-bumper, drivetrain, etc), we are out of luck Not necessarily. I'm not a lawyer but I know that there are a few Rennlist members who are and maybe they can enlighten us on "implied warranty." Suppose for example that I have a car with low mileage that is out of warranty because of the time factor, and that I never abused the car and I maintenaned it according to factory recommendations. Now if the engine fails on that car because of an apparent manufacturing flaw, I'm not certain that the manufacturer can simply tell the owner of that car that you are out of luck because your warranty has expired.

For all our sakes I hope they stand behind their motors and give you some kind of break!! Thanks for the update.

It will take an act of God for Porsche to admit that it is a manufacturing flaw that cannot easily be resolved with a newly configured RMS (3rd generation now?) and newly configured intermediate shaft cap seal. Indeed, it begs the question if your motor was even impacted by RMS and not something else entirely. Unless any of us are trained mechanics and have visually inspected your car, we're going on anecdotal evidence. That said, it's worth reading the PCNA warranty manual in detail. Here is their warranty booklet . You'll notice inside that it states a couple of interesting things (and these are all quotes but I apologize for any typos in advance): 1. Components and/or parts that fail during racing and driving evetns (including Porsche sponsored events) will not be covered by the manufacturer new car limited warranty. TIP: Do not ever tell your dealer that you track your car if you hope to have repairs executed under warranty, new car, CPO, or otherwise. You're basically relying on their goodwill. 2. PCNA provides and alternate dispite resolution mechanism, the National Center for Dispute Settlement. NCDS can be reached at [phone removed]. TIP: If you have a problem with PCNA, try calling NCDS. 3. This Warranty Does Not Cover (Page 9 of Booklet) TIP: Read this page in detail. The warranty does NOT cover a lot of things. 4. Warranty only lasts 4 years or 50,000 miles. A CPO is good for another 2 years and 100,000 miles. TIP: CPO is not overrated. Ignore everyone who makes this statement. One RMS repair pays for a CPO. Anyway, you guys get the idea. At some point, Porsche has to cut us loose. They can't keep repairing our cars for free ad infinitum. The part that is confusing to me in regards to the above is the engine replacement. If a RMS replacement resolves the issue in most cases, then why is engine replacement even necessary? What other problem was/might have been encountered? And if the engine does require replacement, perhaps it is a TRUE defect that Porsche SHOULD consider replacing for free. Mind you, a new engine for $7500 + installation expense is a pretty damn good deal if you ask me. I guess what I am trying to say is that you should definitely make your case, and consider going to arbitration with NCDS. But if you or the prior owner was ultimately responsible for juicing the car and wrecking it somehow, then I'm sorry, but you, NOT PCNA, will be buying that new engine. For your sake, I hope that's not the case. Do keep us posted and keep track of everyone you talk to so that you can set a precedent for others. Cheers, and good luck.

that's what happened with my second engine... with 8,000 miles on it, one of the cylinders came out of the sleeve lining, and had to be replaced... what would exactly cause this to happen? anyone with technical knowledge? can driving/service cause this? or is this a faulty manufactured engine?

That is so true!

Bob, I keep hearing of your 2nd new engine failing shortly after being installed. Isn't it true, that any new motor from Porsche would be warrantied for at least an additional year?

What date range 996�s were effected by the cylinder sleeve lining problem? Mine was manufactured 12/98. The servicing dealer wouldn't turn over the service records during my PPI when I bought the car from a private party (they claimed legal issues), but they indicated that there was never and RMS problem, etc. 51.5K miles right now. Joe - Don't even get me going on Motor Werks. They're on my list right now.... With a 99 and similar mileage I feel for you and wish you the best. Please keep us updated.

Yes, that's true. Often times people will get a used replacement motor. Pay now or pay later

If I am not mistaken, Bob had that done at a local shop rather than the dealer so he would not be eligible for the 2 year warranty.

yes, i took the cheap route, and got the replacement motor done at a independant porsche shop.. learned the hard way.. $145 an hour at the local porsche dealer here just pissed me off.. when mechanics start making more than attorneys, something is definately not right..

Bob, it's not the mechanic that is making that $145 an hour--it is the dealer. The mechanic is paid a wage but I do concur that $145 and hour is ludicrous!

i'm lucky mu local opc is only $90 an hour I was shocked however when i was in the Uk recently to find out from my local BMW dealer they charge 140 POUNDS and hour - $240!!!!! I nearly fainted in shock

labor rate $145? are those tech. from Mars? the porsche service i used yesterday rate is $100, very friendly. answer my phone 5 times a day without getting mad

Local NY dealer's rate is $110/hr. so $145 is really high.

Hello, It's been a while since I've posted on this board, but many of you may recognize me from another board. I too have a 11/98 production 996 that just let go at 60K miles. Cylinder #2 soemthing broke inside. I have always been one of the "stop your bitching, anything can brake, mines been great" guys and now I'm paying for it. Your opionion will change if this happens to you. I have spent alot of time trying to figure out how to get a 3.6L x51 engine in my car and it cannot be done reasonable. Not because the engine is more costly (it's only $1200 more than a 3.4L) but the CAN wiring, and soleinoid issues, etc. The 3.4l replacement is reasonable at $6500 with a 2yr unlimited mile warranty. Installation takes 2 days - $1500 for install plus $6500 = $8000 total. Not bad -BUT, it shouldn't happen on a car like a Porsche. I'd like to see what your serial number is Joe and find out if anyone is keeping track of the date/serial number of the failures. I too spoke with my Regional National Rep, Steve, and was told no go as well. Is there a forum to keep track of the issues. I looking into the frequencey and years with the most issues. Early 99, seems to be the most suspect.

Thanks for the sympathy. I do not wish anything negative on anyone on this thread who is trying to help me, but I think if the $10,000 shoe was on the other foot, there would be a different story about "quit whining." Maybe I am wrong. Anyway, my car's vin # is: WP0CA2991XS653684 I do not know how to decifer this but I imagine if we went through our Excellence magazines there would be an explanation somewhere. So you had to pay for your engine? Is it done? How long did it take? Or are you still working with the District Manager guy? I think the only reason they even bothered to ask for my service records is because it is an early 99'. Good luck.

$8K is a great deal for a new motor with a warranty.

Until you have to write the check. Seriously though, that really isn't a bad deal for a factory 996 engine with a two year warranty.

barrier porsche in bellevue, wa is $145 an hour with sales tax.. supply and demand.. their bays are always filled so apparentlly they get away with it..

glad you can relate.. imagine if you had to replace two engines in 1,100 miles for $25,000 and then after having your car in the shop for 2 months, on the way home, you're $9,000 transmission breaks into pieces on the freeway on the way home after shellling out $12,000 to have your third engine installed.. after having the starter, coolant box, srs airbag light, radiator, ignition, and after paying for a full service and ppi and having a perfect inspection done 1,200 miles prior... needless to say, at the time, i told the tow truck drive to drive it to the nearest port and let it accidently dissapear.. I see all these people that say, the engines are bulletproof, never had any problems, etc... then they come on 2 months later.. "porsche sucks, my engine blew up, i hate this damn car" i find it quite ironic and chuckle at myself whenever that happens.. atleast sympathize and realize these engines have issues.. just because you haven't had problems "yet" or may not ever, doesn't mean the m96 have more grenading engines than any other car currently on the market.. i'm a member of many car forums, and besides the m3 which is covered, no other current car has engines that just blow up as frequently as the 996 c2/c4... and to those that want to prove me wrong, name another currently produced vehicle that has common engine grenading.. like you said.. things chance when the shoe is on the other foot.. i as well have a late 98 build on my 99.. sofar my car hasn't been on fire lately, so all is well.. but then again, i haven't driven it in a month because the battery is dead.. i suppose i can't do any more damage when it's not drivable huh can someone please explain what causes a cylinder to come out of the sleeve lining? I asked before, but i'm just curious as to what causes this? the dealer simply told me, this was a manufacturing problem, which of course only upset me even more when i shelled out $10,000+ once again.. but what causes this to happen on a brand new perfectly serviced engine with 8,000 miles? any techies hiding out there?

I would have been too busy throwing up to even speak to the tow-truck driver - that or crying. I think in my frustration I would have offered it to the driver for $1.00 just to be done with it. I really think we should set up a website where people can post their VIN #, year and mileage of car when the motor gave out. Might be means to support our class-action suit later on. My ultimate problem is this: what Porsche do I buy after this one that I can use as a weekend driver for many years to come? It HAS to be a cabrio for me.

Bob the problem is you seem to have more money then commen sense. First you buy probably for cheap a non warrantied high end used porsche from a Ford dealer. Yeah I know there Porsche experts . After you motor goes you buy i believe a new one but cheap out again and use an independent to install it therefore no warranty again. I'm starting to see a pattern of someone creating there own bad luck.

yes i lived and learned, but just because it was purchased from a ford dealer doesn't mean anything.. they bought it from an auction 2000 miles away and never even drove it.. would it matter if a high end exotic used car dealership went to the same auction and i bought the same car from them? I would still have had a blown engine. same with the second engine... you say i created my own bad luck, yet all porsche dealers i went to, diagnosed the engine failuires as manufactur defects, which i nor the previous owner(s) could have done anything to cause or prevent... since i was out of warranty, there was nothing they could do for me... so i suppose all 3 porsche dealers lied to me about the faulty engines from the factory?

Bob you're missing my point. Had you purchased the vehicle from a porsche dealership with the cpo warranty your first motor would have been covered. Consequently, no complaining about porsche as they would have paid for new motor. Had you had Porsche install your second motor it would have also been warrantied by Porsche and replaced by Porsche. Whether or not your car had any problems that a Porsche dealer would have found at auction opposed to Ford is debatable, but alot of auction cars, at least in NY, have flaws that prevent dealers from selling them such as frame damage. I'm not saying your created the damage to the engines just that you created your position of being w/o a warranty when you had not one but two opportunities to have a warrantied engine.

JB, so essentially you are indicating that anyone that doesn't buy a porsche from a porsche dealer with a CPO made a horrible mistake? because that's what it sounds like you are implying, and that's exactly what I did. if that's the case, regardless, I sure don't have too much confidence in a vehicle that requires me to buy used from the dealer with the dealer extended warranty as the only smart option... unfortunately this is indeed true for the 996 due to it's inherint problems..

JB, Your flogging a dead horse here. This has been thrashed out before. Bob's arguments were totally demolished, but he persists in trotting out the same ol' diatribe to anyone who will listen.His stock premise is to blame Porsche, the 996 model( everyone ever made is at risk he said at one point) anyone and everything has had the bone pointed at it/them. He says 'l've lived and learned', well just keep showing a bit of sympathy and out it will come. I wish I had a dollar for all the posts that in someway he has either directly stated or alluded to his problem. If you want advice,DONT LISTEN TO BOB. He is obviously MAD.

It's funny that these "inherent" problems only appear to show up in a very small percentage of all 996's made. Is RMS a problem? Of course, but it is a frickin seal. As for your saga, I think it is you that is missing the point of the arguments made here. It's not saying that you HAVE to get a CPO but rather that would have protected you from a car that has a past that NOBODY can attest to. Even Porsche dealers get cars from the auction but there are several items that will prevent it from CPO status. If you get CPO then you are well on your way to buying a car with confience. Especially if there are problems, as those would usually manifest WAY before the 2/100 term expires and you wouldn't be out ONE SINGLE DOLLAR!!! I think your error in buying a car from a Ford dealer that buys a car at auction 2K miles away is that they have no idea either what the history of the car is rather they just know that somebody will bite on the dirt cheap price that they wanted to sell it at (which you did) and they will make a healthy profit and have NO liability to it.....sold AS-IS! Then.....you compounded the situation by going cheap on the replacement which would have been warranted by Porsche. I guess your indy that you used said "tough luck Bob"? Sounds like *****y corner cutting work by the indy that put you in another bad predicament and again and again. I am willing to bet that the shotty work on the first engine led to the tranny failure.

Everyone stop driving your 996s now! They're all gonna blow.................LOL

Well, let's just go on worrying. How about this: there are quite a few supercharged 996's out there (15 years ago, this was pretty much unheard of in 911's). How many of these cars do you think are actually sold as *supercharged* 996's? I know of at least one pretty well-known car on the forum that was returned to "stock" to be sold. I wouldn't try to venture a guess as to how much stress you can put on a regular Carrera engine by supercharging, chipping, etc. and then going out week-end racing. Pretty scary for all pre-owned, unless you know the P.O.

LV, what would matter then if I bought the car from a place that specialized in selling porsches that bought the exact same vehicle at an auction? yes, i bought it from a ford dealer that also buys ferarris, lambos, bmws, mercedes, etc.. from auctions and puts them in the pre-owned lot.. strange activity for a ford dealership? yes.. but now they actually put them on their "exotic" car lot... there were no qualms about it when i purchased it from them.. they told me the straight story, how the car was bought at auction a few days prior, checked out perfectly (as did the carfax and inspection show) and were completely 100% honest... what would the liability of this, or any other dealer in the world matter i ask you? as i asked before, what if I bought it at a pre-owned lexus dealer.. would the car have then been much more reliable, not blown the engine, then would have the lexus dealer picked up the tab for the engine replacement? I don't think so.. and with a private party purchase? I don't think so.. what it comes down to, is buying a 996 is a crapshoot.. yes you can do all the history checking you want, but it's all an odds game if you get a good one or not.. as some problems just randomly show up.. hell my car lasted 44,000 miles on the original engine, not to mention never even had RMS on the service history.... so why would i have any reason to think it wouldn't last another 44,000? regardless, to each their own.. i think the 996 is a great car and most do not encounter catastraphic failuires.. i just think the smart way to go IS as you say a CPO and/or having a $15,000 reserve account for the 996 just incase something does go wrong.. that's all... i learned the hard and expensive way.. and am simply sharing my experiences with others so they can help decide to make the right decision...

Bob, You just are not listening. I'll try to be succinct: Point #1 IF YOU know a car's history, it matters less who YOU buy it from. That being said, some sellers offer more protection to the buyer - such as dealers selling CPO cars. IF YOU DO NOT know a car's history, it matters a lot who YOU buy it from - YOU are gambling YOUR money on a lot of unknowns. IF YOU choose to buy a non-CPO car, YOU are willingly taking the risk that problems could occcur that YOU are responsible for. Point #2 IF YOU are replacing an engine and the dealer offers to warranty the engine, YOU are being safe and protecting yourself by allowing them to do the work. IF YOU are replacing an engine and the independent shop DOES NOT offer to warranty the engine, YOU are taking a risk with YOUR money by agreeing to the work. Its very simple really. When YOU bought the car without a CPO rating, YOU effectively agreed that YOU would be responsible for all repairs - up to and including replacing the entire vehicle . And when YOU decided to have the replacement engine installed by someone who DID NOT OFFER A WARRANTY, YOU effectively agreed that YOU would be responsible for all further repairs - up to and including replacing the entire vehicle . YOU agreed to all this risk by making the decisions YOU did. Once YOU agreed to this risk, the source of the problem no longer matters - YOU have absolved anyone but YOURSELF of the responsibility.

Yes I understand it mildly can matter who you buy it from. But that doesn't protect you from much.. most of the failures we have seen are completely "random" and happen at "random" times regardless of perfect service history or not... If you don't buy a Porsche CPO car, which i'm sure is how 95% of 996s are bought, then why does it really matter who you buy it from? A car with a perfect service history and a perfect ppi, from what we have seen on this board can randomly have a catastrophic failuire just like one that doesn't.. rms just like one that never did and checks out perfectly, etc.. I am TOTALLY in favor of CPO from what I have seen now.. When I bought the car used, it was a fourth vehicle for use in only driving a few thousand miles a year at MOST.. I didn't think a car with 44,000 miles on it, that I would have to worry about a catastraphic engne failuire, the tranny going out on me, the starter, the radiator, the ignition, the srs seatbelt light, etc.. would you worry about this when purchasing a car for 2000 to 3000 miles a year of light driving? I didn't see the point in paying $15,000 more for the exact same optioned vehicle, just because it had a CPO warranty... unfortunately through experience and research, I learned that just because the car checked out and had 44,000 miles, didn't mean anything.. The problem with my first engine is that the internal failure was so massive, that a rod blew out of the inside of the actual "CORE" of the engine causing a massive internal engine fire which engulfed the entire engine compartment in smoke. There was a huge hole in the entire core upon inspection, so porsche would NOT take the core replacement back. As the porsche dealer put it, the only thing the engine was good for was a boat anchor. The dealer indicated the engine was a ticking time bomb, and it unfortunately blew up when it did. Engines are not supposed to throw rods out of the actual "core" of the engine and blow up on the freeway when on cruise control at 65mph... so I was looking at not only having to pay $9000 for the replacement engine, but ANOTHER $3500 as they wouldn't take back the core + ANOTHER $3000 for labor and installation at the local porsche dealer ($145 an hour) for a total of $16,500 + sales tax of $1500 for a grand total of $18,000 vs a used engine with 8,000 miles with a full ppi checked out perfectly on it before being sold on it and labor at an independant for $7,800 total (no sales tax, as out of state purchase). If you drive a vehicle 2000 to 3000 miles a year, and had this choice to save $10,000+, would you think that the second engine would randomly cause a cylinder to fall out of it's sleeve lining 800 miles later, especially when the engine only had 8,000 miles on it? yes this is bad luck, and a rare occurance, but it did happen. Fact 1) I bought the car for $15,000 under the price of a similar priced/optioned vehicle at the local porsche dealer with the cpo under the assumption it would be driven 2k to 3k miles a year and i'd expect to be problem free at only 44,000 miles. Is that too much to ask of such a low mileage vehicle? Fact 2) When the engine blew up the first time, it would have costed me over $18,000 to replace it since the porsche dealers refused to take the core back because it was a blown up mess with a huge hole in the core. So I chose to save $10,000+ by playing it relatively safe and having a relatively low mileage (8,000 miles) engine from LA Porsche (which has a good reputation as a used a porsche parts dealer as we all know) installed, which would hopefully last another few thousand miles before I sold it in a few years.. unfortunately it did not last that long.. I finally after the second engine failure went to the porsche dealer and actually had a returnable core with the second failure, so i didn't have to cough up another $3,500 and went the full dealer route.. on the way home, after having the third $12,000 engine installed my the porsche dealer, the $9000 tranny went out on the freeway... 120 miles later... so no, the tranny faluire was not potentially caused by any of the prior engines, or independent repair shops, as it worked perfect, until i had the third engine installed by the authorized porsche dealer by the potential faulty installation of the third engine by the authorized porsche dealer/mechanic. yes i know this sounds like a bad nightmare, so i'll end listing all the problems i've had in the 4,000 miles i've had it at this... the 996 is still a great vehicle, but i don't have many great experiences to share, except the actual driving experience for the 4000 total miles i've actually put on the vehicle since i purchased it 2 years ago.. Yes, unfortunately I had bad luck with both of these choices, but can you blame me due to the circumstances of making these certain choices considered it was a 4th vehicle with very very limited driving yearly? I've learned now that these cars are not a given as being reliable, and even if you have it low mileage and barely drive it, does not mean anything.. catastrophic failuires do happen.. i would NEVER EVER consider buying a porsche without a CPO now.. i've learned.. a benz, bmw, sure, no problem.. 996, no, never, ever... an expensive lesson learned.. especially since no third party warranty co will warranty a 996 now, and the few that have, have all filed for bankruptcy already as we have seen lately.. cpo is the only way, i learned the hard way, and it's the best advice i can give to anyone looking to buy a used 996.. the piece of mind it gives you is priceless... even after all i've been through, would i recommend a 986 or a 996 to a friend as a great used sports car and bang for the buck? no questions asked yes, but ONLY if they were to get a CPO and only if they planned to keep it as long as the CPO lasted.. i'd feel damn guilty recommending this car to anyone that didn't buy it without a CPO and then came to me telling me about having to shell out $10,000+ to fix an internal failure caused by faulty design... faulty design? great... as long as you don't have to pay for it.. faulty design, if you have to pay for it.. not so great... --- on a side note, I see from your post today that you as well are looking at getting a CPO for your vehicle or an extended warranty. If you are so happy with the reliability of the 996, then why are you considering an expensive extended warranty? RMS is only $800.. a CPO warranty would cost thousands.. is it because you as well are concerned about a potential catostrophic failure as well and realizing these cars aren't bulletproof? https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/246784-extending-the-warranty.html

If a failed seal was the problem than you would agree that replacing the seal would fix the leak? How many revisions of RMS have there been (there's been something like 7 part number changes?). So why does Porsche have an unofficial policy of 3-leaks and your out? In 7 years PAG has not been able to engineer a seal that could compensate for problems with the crankcase. Obviously not all 996s will have leaking rear main seals but those that do have a problem that an $800USD seal replacement won't fix! (not yet at least...)

That's always a concern with any used car. That's why I'm glad I was fortunate enough to buy my 996 brand new from the factory, I know every inch and every mile on this car.

Jason, you are incorrect. Porsche is on the 4th Gen seal and apparently this one is the "the fix". But they have somewhat aknowledged this and have tried to get a seal (remember it's just a seal) that will work. What else would they have to do to satisfy you (and others)? Redesign and new engine that doesn't have RMS leaks? That's not going to happen and remember this probelm is one that is the results of the positioning of the engine and the weight.. Do you think that they (R&D engineers) aren't trying to resolve this for future models? The problem is not one that affects a large percentage of owners and not one that is a safety hazzard (which would induce a recall) so the very best we can hope for is to have a great relationship with your dealer and shoud it happen to you outside of warranty they would cover it (from the 4/50 time through 6or7/100). But they do need to call it quits with us at owners at some point so they can't cover our *** everytime there is a probelm with our cars that have VERY questionable history, etc. I am so done with this thread. There are those that will never understand.

Dell, Do work work with/for Dell computers and will you be moving to NC for the new plant they just built here at Winston-Salem? Bill

Hey Bill, nope I don't work for Dell.......just my name. I'll be in Cary next June in a different capacity but VERY excited....that is one beautiful area of the country and the wife and I were totally sold on the last recruiting trip we went on to NC.

Without hijacking the thread ... welcome to NC. I've been here a year and half and it's a beautiful state. The high taxes aren't that great but you will find some beautiful roads for your P-cars to exercise on!

Thanks Bill, can't wait to get there and start mixin' it up with the Carolina P-car guys! ....and now back to our wonderful regularly scheduled programming

Dell, I hate to get involved because you and others have said it so well. But, clearly some people aren't listening. Let me try my way: Bob, you are cheap and paying the price for being penny-wise and pound foolish! You bought a car from a non-Authorized Porsche dealer. The core of the engine was demolished? I don't even know what that means, but it sounds awful! You opted to replace the ENGINE at an Indy? Are you mad? Have you lost your senses? A new engine from a factory authorized Porsche repair shop would warranty it for 2 YEARS? Then after your replacement failed, you bought ANOTHER engine from the indy? Guys, this thread should be null and void. Bob, there has to be a sadomasochist forum on the internet somewhere. Good luck. Let's summarize and be done with it: RMS seal failure? Easy fix. 4th gen in their efforts but at least they're still trying. Engine replacement required after warranty? $8000 all in, but you get 2 years of warranty on a car that is older than 4 years now. For chrissakes, we're not driving Hyundais here. What do you think a REPLACEMENT engine should cost? RMS failures don't cause engines to blow unless you forget to check your oil ever and it seizes because you are a lazy sack. Ugh, this whole topic is slaying me. Those of us with 996s have all had problems. I also had VWs, BMWs, Hondas, Acuras, etc. They ALL had problems. Develop a relationship with your dealer beyond FIX IT demands and they will help you the best they can. You WILL pay the price if you are insolent or worse, the above mentioned PENNY WISE AND POUND FOOLISH!

Nicely said, but I am afraid Bob is Bob and there is probably nothing anybody can do or say for him to understand. He believes Porsche builds crappy cars, have horrible customer service, overcharge for labor, and don't stand behind their product. Personally, I am VERY happy with my dealer, especially my service advisor, and will only buy from them. I just hope that I can build the same relationship with another dealer when I get to N.C. next summer. FYI....my CPO ends this month and my SA has offered to give the car a complete workover (similar to a extensive PPI) to make sure there is nothing than doesn't need to be taken care of prior to the end of the CPO. In addition, I have no doubt that should I have anything after the CPO that my SA will take care of me. It's all about relationships.

Edward Nycebo writes, "Let's summarize and be done with it: ...Develop a relationship with your dealer beyond FIX IT demands and they will help you the best they can. You WILL pay the price if you are insolent or worse, the above mentioned PENNY WISE AND POUND FOOLISH!" Ahhh, the hubris of youth...I remember those days (hit 40 last year). P.S. Still not quite sure what the actual price is of a rebuilt engine at the dealer. People are quoting different figures without install, and now there apparently is a core exchange involved as well.

The problem is not one that affects a large percentage of owners and not one that is a safety hazzard (which would induce a recall) so the very best we can hope for is to have a great relationship with your dealer and shoud it happen to you outside of warranty they would cover it Based on the information that I have been able to get locally, admittedly an infinitesmal sample, I agree that RMS leaks don't affect a large percentage of 996s. Nevertheless, even if it's only 20% that are affected, that's still a significant number, and it's certainly worrisome to potential buyers of used 996s. IMO Porsche could certainly bolster the price of 996s by extending the warranty coverage on rear main seals to 6yrs/100K miles. There's virtually a zero chance that Porsche will do that since that would be acknowledging that they have a RMS problem, and I don't believe that Porsche is willing to admit to a design flaw.

So you are saying that anyone that bought their used 996 from a non-porsche dealer is foolish? I suppose 95% of the used 996 owners on this board are foolish then by your logic... Since my core had a hole in it, as said Porsche would not give me a core credit of $3500 and I would have had to pay $18,000 TOTAL with sales tax to have the engine replaced vs $7800 total at an indy for a lightly used engine with 8,000 miles on it installed out the door. So you are calling me pennywise and pound foolish for trying to save $10,000 in my belief that a replacement porsche engine would last more than 8,000 miles before failing? I planned to drive the car 2000 to 3000 miles a year. I expected the engine to last more than 8,000 miles, it lasted 8,800 miles before failing.. I guess that makes me foolish for believing in porsche to produce a reliable engine that can last more than 9,000 miles with your logic.. ------ You bought a car from a non-Authorized Porsche dealer. The core of the engine was demolished? I don't even know what that means, but it sounds awful! You opted to replace the ENGINE at an Indy? Are you mad? Have you lost your senses? A new engine from a factory authorized Porsche repair shop would warranty it for 2 YEARS? Then after your replacement failed, you bought ANOTHER engine from the indy? Guys, this thread should be null and void. Bob, there has to be a sadomasochist forum on the internet somewhere. Good luck. Let's summarize and be done with it: RMS seal failure? Easy fix. 4th gen in their efforts but at least they're still trying. Engine replacement required after warranty? $8000 all in, but you get 2 years of warranty on a car that is older than 4 years now. For chrissakes, we're not driving Hyundais here. What do you think a REPLACEMENT engine should cost? RMS failures don't cause engines to blow unless you forget to check your oil ever and it seizes because you are a lazy sack. Ugh, this whole topic is slaying me. Those of us with 996s have all had problems. I also had VWs, BMWs, Hondas, Acuras, etc. They ALL had problems. Develop a relationship with your dealer beyond FIX IT demands and they will help you the best they can. You WILL pay the price if you are insolent or worse, the above mentioned PENNY WISE AND POUND FOOLISH![/QUOTE]

Ok, well I am officially done with this Bob, you win for being the hardest headed person on this board.

So how hard is it to replace this seal? Is it something an owner could do themselves? Or must one check the condition of the crank or do other high-tech testing during the procedure that involves special tools?

A leak is generally so small that it can wait until you need to replace the clutch and have the RMS repaired at the same time. I certainly think any project that doesn't require special parts can be a DIY project.

Yes, you are right.sorry Hopefully this is the case but the three other seals were also supposed to be "the fix." Yes, I would have liked PAG to design the 997 crankcase in a way that it would only leak from the RMS with the same frequency as the previous model 911s (i.e. very rarely). I would also like there to be some consistency to how Porsche treats their customers. The way things are now you have to beg and complain to have them fix a problem that has existed since the engine was released. Porsche knows the problem is the engine and not the RMS and they count on their buyers to be uneducated about this fact. Just like with the 964 and the 993 (and previous models) Porsche has kept their mouths shut, waiting for the warranty periods to expire. You shouldn't have to offer to blow a service advisor to have them fix their screwup. As for what I think Porsche should do for current 996 owners? If they are not going to replace the crankcases than they should warranty the RMS (and problems caused by it) for the expected design running lifetime of the car (10 years?) If you leave the RMS to leak long enough it will contaminate the clutch and flywheel and then you are out another $2000 ontop of the bi-annual $1k for a new RMS. In 7 years PAG has not been able to figure out if the problem is as a "result of the positioning of the engine and the weight." I would think that if that was the case, the engine and transmission suspension would have been changed dramatically with the 997 and those would leak from the RMS at about the same rate as other cars? We don't know what the percentage is but we can guess based on PAG's past history with design flaws, how they responded to those and how they treat this one and by knowing that the crankcase still leaks on brand new models even 7 years after the original was released. How you drive or beat on your car has absolutely nothing to do with the 996 RMS failure! It also has nothing to do with the cylinder sleeve problem or the slipping out of 2nd gear problem with the G96/50 & 88 transmissions, etc. If they would take a 996 (or any flat-6) apart or watch someone else do it they might have a better understanding. The whole procedure is extremely simple and can be performed by anyone with even basic mechanical skills (and 2 hydraulic jacks and some jackstands). Unfortunately, replacing the seal is still only a temporary fix. The latest generation RMS has not been available long enough for anyone to come to any conclusion if it will compensate for problems with the crankcase.

WOW - I am sorry I started this. I didn't know everyone was going to gang up on Bob. Bob - I feel ya. I also did not purchase my car from a Porsche dealer, and I did not get a CPO example. I did not even buy the extended warranty (luckily since they are out of business). I will also get my motor fixed at an Indy if I can save $10K, but I will then sell it IMMEDIATELY. My problem is that I TRUSTED what I read - saying that once a car got past 40,000 miles, if it had not had a serious engine problem, it probably would not. My buddy bought a 996 with a replacement motor and I was thinking how lucky I was that I had a SOLID example with none of those problems. Clearly I know better now. Maybe I am a cry baby expecting some kind of compensation from PCNA. However, this is the 3rd Porsche I have owned (after an 86 and an 89 turbo before I was marired), I am planning on buying a Cayenne for the wife in the Summer and I have DIRECTLY influenced 2 friends into buying 996's. That alone is worth some goodwill in my opinion. If the dealer does not want to eat $5K in the parts (can the motor even cost them that much?) while I pay for labor, then they deserve to lose a customer. I am a business owner, and I comp stuff to my idiot customers all the time who do NOT have legitimate claims besides "I screwed up, sorry," just to maintain goodwill. That is what it is all about for me. If they do not want me as a customer, they do not have to make any consessions. Now you guys can gang up on me for a while. I should get an update tomorrow - hopefully.

I like Bob! I'd like to take Bob to Vegas, ask him his bets, then bet against him. Bob, I'd be willing to share the pot for your efforts!

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif

want to take a reverse life insurance policy out on me and pay be monthly? i mean, i figure it's the only thing that hasn't gone wrong.. i haven't actually been killed driving the car yet <g>

The Cooler ( aka Bob)

Bob, don't say things like that, especially in print! You need to look on the brighter side of things, like adding up the total hp for all your engines. That would be a nice warm number, I'm sure. TT's couldn't touch you! You should put the total hp in your ID.

I think Bob got a bum deal with this car and now he's getting a bum deal from some of you in here. Buying a slightly used porschethats been expected from a non-porsche dealer should not have resulted in such an ownership nightmare. I'll admit that the 2nd engine could be entirely the fault of the indy that sold it, but could anyone blame him when staring at an 18k bill for a car he's going to drive 2-3k per year? I'm sorry, but no matter what anyone says an 80,000 car blowing an engine after receiving a perfect inspection rating and only 44000 miles would make anyone hate the brand.

Yes, many posters pick on him and I applaud his demeanor. He always seems to stay polite about the situation. I'd be bashing the crap out of the motor people if that had happened to me.................... Cheers Bob! Looks like you have a few freinds after all. I thought I was the only one..................... J/k. I must agree with lvdell on the hard headed comment though! and it's not often I agree with him or some of the others.........................

If you ever decide to wrench on your own car seriously consider using maybe 11 or 12 jackstands to support it, just to be safe...

it's all good Dallas.

i do have to question you guys.. if you went through what i did... two blown engines, (one with a rod that blew out of the head of the engine and made a huge hole in the core.. that was nice..) two engines fires (that embaressingly had to be put out by the fire department each time.. sigh), a blown tranny (on the way home from having my third engine installed..), a faulty maf, faulty starter, faulty radiator, faulty ignition, faulty starter, faulty coolant box, faulty srs sealt belt light, among countless other problems i can't even begin to remember, nor want to remember from the nightmares i had.... for a grand total of $47,000 in costs.. all in 1,100 miles of your first porsche ownership.. what do you expect me to say? "gee.. the porsche 996 is a GREAT reliable car.. the engine is bulletproof, you won't have any problems.. go to your local used car dealership and buy one immediately!" come on.. is that what you really expect me to say after what i've been through? and after all i've been through, i still recommend and compliment these cars, but porsche customer relations is probably the one main reason i will never be buying another porsche again... (porsche are you reading this?) i can say that my experience isn't a common one, but all i can say is that when buying these vehicles used, from what i've learned, is that CPO paper is worth it's weight in gold x 100... have a CPO and/or $15,000 in the bank at all times in the case of a catastrophic failuire.. that's all i say.. other than that, the 996 is a great car, but if you guys honestly expect me to go around raving about how great it is after what i've been through and the horrible, absolutely HORRIBLE customer service of porsche north america, you can forget that... the dealers were nice, but porsche north america doesn't give a crap about their customers.. deny, deny deny.. blame it on the customer.. and if they aren't happy with the 996 out of warranty, buy a 997.. at times it feels like they made the 996 disposable, so people would go buy a 997.. no thank you.. once a porsche, never again.. try calling up 1-800-POR-SCHE and ask what RMS is.. they've all been trained to play dumb.. "uhh i don't know what that is.. go talk to a dealer, maybe they will know" porsche executives that won't even admit to any problems, let alone the huge RMS problem themselves, and then go and release the 997 with the exact same problem? i think yugo has better customer service than porsche.. worst car company i've ever dealt with in my life.. pretty good dealers... fun to drive cars.. horrible corporate customer satisfaction.. completely unacceptable imho from a car company that makes more profit than any company in the world on their vehicles, and sells them at $100k a pop... with plenty of money to spend on customer satisfaction/customer relations.. regardless of their screwups.. it's never their fault.. it's always the customer to blame.. srs airbag light on because we f**ked up when integrating them with our seatbelts? "not our problem, you must have pushed in the seatbelt too hard" coolant box broke? "you're fault.. you must have put too much coolant in there".. and of course.. "RMS.. what's that? here's your $1,400 bill.. now shoo, go away.. and come back in a few months to pay your next $1,400 bill.. then when you sell the car and they look at the service history, you will lose thousands from this showing up on the service record.. but not our problem.. you drove the car too hard! all you're fault.." (ok my attempt at bad german ) porsche is too damn arrogant to admit any fault or take any blame for anything that has gone wrong with these vehicles, and i'm done with any car company that insults the intelligence of their buyers and refuses to take blame for anything.. or even address them as a concern.. they don't care about their customers anymore like they once did, and if something goes wrong, they refuse to take any responsibility for it.. and if they do, it's so sketchy.. it's like fighting a traffic ticket in court.. to see who gets 20% off, who gets a free wax and detail, who gets a 25% off the part, etc.. through negotiating or making threats in order to come to some sort of agreement.. what the hell.. make up your damn mind and have a uniform guideline for who the hell gets replacements and who doesn't.. how do you think i feel, when i hear about someone out of warranty getting a free replacement engine because theirs blew up, and then they leave me with an $18,000 bill? what the hell.. i even asked for a 10% discount of the $18,000.. or to take the core back.. "no, no, no" am i going to buy another porsche? no, no, no... i don't care about them anyore.. and won't ever again after the warranty is almost up on my engine/tranny and this thing is sold.. imho, porsche needs to get their damn act together and stop insulting the owners with their arrogance of the idealogy they have of the most perfect reliable problem-free sportscar ever created... ok i'm done

I think you have just validated everybody's point that said you just don't get it. I think this pic sums it up.

Bob, I think this is what everyone was trying to convince you of. No one denys you got a raw deal - in fact, I can't believe you've spent as much as you have without just throwing in the towel and calling it a lesson learned. I think this is the first time, however, you admit at least some of the drama could have been avoided. Good luck - hope everything works out for the best for you.

Dude, I'm sorry (said in a fun way). It sounds terrible and you have been a good sport despite the razzing that you get here. But man, why didn't you just buy a new car? Fires? Holes in the core? Faulty MAFs? Radiators? Bob, you need a new indy. Look on the bright side, at least it's cheaper than therapy. This all reads like a television sitcom. And here I was bitching about spending more than a hundred on mounting 4 new tires....

I tell you and that whatever car make that if my engine blew 1st time I wouldn't hesitate to get rid of it. Really it's that simple. Why go thru all that drama when there are many cars out there? I would never take Porsche out of the picture- life is too short- if that happens just get another one. Mike

'Since my core had a hole in it' -Bob. mmmm... that might explain it

One thing that I consistently think in these forums is "man, a lot of these cars go sideways!" Then I remind myself how many owners are not on the forum and are still motoring strong and convince myself it will all be right. I dont think anybody is confusing their 996 with a Toyota Corolla, but I find it amazing how accepting owners are of replacing motors at 45k miles! It's not even considered strange? That strikes me as ridiculous, that is unacceptably short of a lifespan for a car regardless of how it's driven, where it was bought from, and how it was maintained. Any motor that had no maintenance other than a couple oil changes should outlast 45k, and furthermore, even the owners that are covered under a CPO or original warranty are still way too understanding of this! Just because it didnt cost you any money doesn't mean it wont next time - figure it this way, if the lifespan of a motor is 45k, then in another 45k it's going again and this time YOU are paying. RMS is a completely other issue, with so much documentation I cant imagine why there is no class-action suit underway.

"I dont think anybody is confusing their 996 with a Toyota Corolla, but I find it amazing how accepting owners are of replacing motors at 45k miles! It's not even considered strange? That strikes me as ridiculous, that is unacceptably short of a lifespan for a car regardless of how it's driven, where it was bought from, and how it was maintained. Any motor that had no maintenance other than a couple oil changes should outlast 45k, and furthermore, even the owners that are covered under a CPO or original warranty are still way too understanding of this! Just because it didnt cost you any money doesn't mean it wont next time - figure it this way, if the lifespan of a motor is 45k, then in another 45k it's going again and this time YOU are paying." Boy do I agree. I can't think of a single other auto brand that would get cut this much slack for blown engines at low miles. The folks who had m3's we're livid, as we're the others who owned them. BMW stepped up to the plate, and when Porsche doesn't what do we do? I really hope someone buys that car from you Bob, and gives you some peace!

i do have other vehicles.. i've put so much in the porsche, and all those parts i mention still have almost a year left under warranty, so i essentially should be in the clear, and essentially have a very very expensive well earned "cpo" <g> with their 2 year replacement part guarantee on everything i mentioned.. it's the car company itself that i dealt with during this entire experience and their arrogant attitude of refusing to admitt to any fault or assistance in helping me out with discounts, and/or problems i've encountered at only 44,000 damn miles.. we're not talking 144,000 miles here... like my bmw pictured, which has been a trooper.. problem free and 150,000 miles on that bulletproof beast... hell i never had rms (go figure) but i still think the rms issue is the most bum deal of all for everyone of you guys that had it.. it's obviously a 996 problem.. they've had who knows how many replacement fix seals, and still can't fix it... and STILL regardless of this full knowledge, continue to rape porsche owners with full labor rates to fix it over and over again.. The poll indicated that atleast 40% of owners had RMS atleast once.. and most everyone that's had it once, has had it twice, and three times, etc.. so their idealogy is.. "ok, three RMS fixes.. ok faulty engine.. we'll give you a new engine as long as you are under warranty..." oh, 1000 miles and 3 RMSes.. but.. out of warranty? sorry, you have to pay for another engine.. "it's your fault for owning our car out of warranty, shame on you.." and what's with this comping system? porsche is not las vegas.. why do some people get free fixes, discount fixes, etc.. for certain parts and some don't... just because one has a good relationship with a dealer, should not determine if one is elligible for a $12,000 replacement or not... I don't know... all I know is, the porsche is a great car to drive, reliable in some senses, but porsche and their execs seem to think that just because we can afford a $100k car, they seem to think that we don't mind paying for everything that goes wrong, even though it's paying for faulty mistakes they have created and should take responsibility for... (such as bmw and the faulty m3.. with free replacement engines with backup warranties.. they didn't have to do that, but they did.. they knew there was a problem and did their absolute best to fix it and realized how important the customer is...) i mean come on.. the SRS airbag light/sealtbelt error that so many of us have? why the hell should we pay for this? this should have been a safety recall.. the dealer told me.. "well if you don't get the seatbelts replaced to fix the error, then there IS a small chance that the airbags might not go off during an accident" if that's not a safety hazard.. i don't know what is.. even the smallest things they won't cover, that any decent mass produced car company would that cared about the safety of their customers would... but anyways, onwards life goes.. i've lived and learned.. and won't be around a porsche much longer.. and in regards to nyc, i do have other vehicles.. the sl55 is taking up most of my time right now.. but once every month or so i do take the porsche for a spin... fun car to drive, but i'm sorry i just have no faith in the company or the vehicle anymore, even though it's pretty much fully warrantied for almost another year.... once burned.. (no pun intended <g>) always remembered.. regardless if it's my 996 or anyone elses..

Everytime I see Bob's car in his avatar I think "Beelzebob." <And shudder>

"I dont think anybody is confusing their 996 with a Toyota Corolla, but I find it amazing how accepting owners are of replacing motors at 45k miles! It's not even considered strange? That strikes me as ridiculous, that is unacceptably short of a lifespan for a car regardless of how it's driven,... But how it's driven has everything to do with how long the engine lasts. Why do you think manufacturers revoke warranties from cars that are tracked?

Funny thing is, the only company that I've heard of that revokes warranties due to track use is ... Porsche ... How's that for a bit of irony? Let's build a car that we know cannot be used to anywhere near its potential on public roads. Legally at least. Then, let's make sure they don't use it on track either... I'm probably getting paranoid, but it almost sounds like they're trying to hide an engine durability issue, doesn't it? The sad part is that I'm in the market for a 2+2 convertible sports car, and can't really find any alternatives to a ~2002 996 (in my price range), so I'll probably end up with one even if I don't like how Porsche AG appear to be handling these issues. (And jeez, my 928 is long past 350.000 km and still as strong as when it left the factory - it has had its share of issues, but the engine has been rock solid)...

Okay, all this talk of being lenient is getting out of control. No one is being lenient. I just think that the incidence of blown engines in Porsche is way out of proportion on this forum than in the general population. Let me offer this tidbit from my personal experience: my father has owned Porsches (all 911 cars) since 1969. I have had two Porsches (both over five years old). Many of my friends have had Porsches (a couple that are now over 10 years old). None of us have EVER had an engine blow, or any really expensive service experience that wasn't due to plain old wear and tear (clutch, etc), though one of my buddies did have that wiring harness experience in his 993 that was relatively harmless. Frankly, I have never know one Porsche driver personally that had an engine require replacement. Never. So, here's the conclusion that I take from my own experience and NOT the anecdotal experience of one guy who had a hole in his engine core and felt compelled to have it repaired not once, but twice, but the same lunatic independent repair shop: These cars work, last a good long time, and are fun as hell to drive. I plan on keeping this 2000 cab version of my car as long as possible. It is a beauty and puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. If I should ever need a new engine for whatever reason, it will be purchased from an authorized OEM repair shop, include the 2yr warranty, and thus the car treated as new for another good bit of time and fun.

You're probably right - the stories I heard about 928s when searching for one were not much different, but (also?) blown way out of proportion. Sure, a shredded timing belt will require massive engine work, and it *can* happen even when proper maintenance is applied, but you *can* also get struck by lightning on a summer day. What bothers me is the RMS thing - though not fatal, it's definately something that I feel Porsche should keep reparing for free, warranty or not, until they find a proper fix. They f*cked up, they fix! Besides, like I said, I don't see many alternatives in the 2+2 cab segment, so a 996cab is probably what I'll eventually get. The impact of this discussion, for me personally, is that I'll wait a little longer and get a certified car with warranty rather than simply going for the best deal I can find on mobile.de...

Oh, on a side note: In Denmark repairs made under warranty are, by law, themselves warrantied for another 2 years. Which as far as I can tell must mean that as long as you have the RMS fixed once every two years, your warranty (reg. RMS issues at least) will never expire . Don't other contries have similar rules?

Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions from the last few posts: 1 - Porsche is not the only company to void warranties due to tracking. MINI and BMW (same company) at one point tracked SCCA posted competition results looking for owners who were in violation of the terms of their warranty. In their viewpoint, car manufacturers are just looking to avoid paying for someone else's "improper" driving habits. These are passenger cars, after all, and not sold for racing regardless of their level of performance. 2 - Having owned of the M3's covered under the extended engine warranty due to the 'out of spec' manufacturing (a component was bought from another company and was not built to proper specifications), BMW fought tooth and nail against us buyers for the first few hundred (maybe thousand) failures - claiming they were almost all buyer fault. They pointed to black-box reading showing overrev's and other items. Why did they change their stance? Some people will say its out of good will; others will say the people getting shafted got organized and made it too public to overlook; only BMW can say for sure. But it sure isn't the rosy picture Bob paints.

Most manufacturers will not warranty tracked cars not just Porsche. Subaru which used to offer a free SCCA application/membership with a new WRX will not warranty tracked/autocrossed cars.

I can attest to that since my best friend was a regional service rep for Subaru and would often check the subaru boards for instances of racing/abuse/etc, videos of racing, etc, etc, etc, so when he had to make a decision of good will he could know if the customer was telling the truth....."I swear sir, I never rev'd it up and dropped the clutch, I promise"

I've never heard of it before except here on Rennlist with the PCCB issue, so I assumed (and I know what that makes of U and Me ) it was a Porsche NA brain fart. Apparently it's common in the USofA - I stand corrected! I guess it's a difference between Europe and the US. The 3 authorized Porsche dealerships in Denmark have held several DE's - I doubt they invite customers to participate in a DE only to void their warranty when they leave at the end of the day ... I know that my car was under a 3 month used-car warranty when I attended their DE and I had (minor) stuff fixed under warranty after the DE.

Joes C4 Cab, Sorry about what happened to your car, but like Vic said above, I suspecting that the prior owner probably had a couple of "money shift" (downshifted from 5th to 2nd) at high rpm and the engine didn't right away gave up then, it is just now that it finally let go. Hope everything sort out well, and you get her back on the road.

Read through this thread last week; a week after, I picked up my new to me CPO 2002 996 C4(28,000mi). I had the car inspected(PPI, without compression tests), for major flaws by my mechanic. Only issue was a slight oil leak from a sensor by the right rear cylinder(not RMS), which the dealer agreed to take care of. After having the car for all of 2 weeks. I scheduled to have the oil leak repaired. After, I dropped off the car my wife (good for something!?) informed me that she noticed green fluid on my driveway(30 degree pitch) where the C4 had been. Checked the garage(flat) where normally parked nothing! I called the dealer and asked to have it inverstigated. Guess what, antifreeze coming out the left exhaust pipe. No smoke, no coolant light, no misfiring, car is running just fine. I was informed by the service manager that someone from Porsche might be needed to ok a new engine, or the engine might need major work to replace a $0.59 O-ring. At any rate, they have the car as it is not drivable until Porsche decides how to handle it. Needless to say I am not pleased. I suppose if they are willing to replace the engine I am the better for it, but I do find it disconcerting that the CPO investigation turned up nothing. Don't really know what my best course of action is at this point. Based upon my experience and what has been written on this thread a piece of me wants my money back, and just be done with it(fat chance). Is the replacement engine even if at no cost to me(CPO), an adequate reolution? What other recourse is there?

A replacement is at NO COST to you if you have a CPO. As for the coolant......you sure it is not a cracked coolant tank (very common)? If so, the coolant would leak down out of the tank and drip right off the driver side exhaust pipe. Ask me how I know

So how do you know,lol. I suppose that would be a slightly more pallatable issue. However, shouldn't that have been picked up on the CPO. Also, wouldn't the leak occur regardless of position of the car(flat surface vs angled driveway). As of now it appears only to leak out the exhaust pipe if at an angle. According to the dealership it is not dripping off the exhaust pipe, rather out of it.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this thread... Porsche built the engine IN THE FIRST PLACE, and it grenaded... why should he feel warm and fuzzy about spending $11k on a Porsche rebuilt engine of the SAME DESIGN???

Very odd. Haven't heard that one yet.

I have a friend that had that same problem on his 99.. he kept bringing it into the dealer and they kept trying to fix it.. coolant kept leaking all over the ground out of the exhaust, and it wasn't the coolant box, wasn't rms.. they couldn't really figure out what was going on.. just that, it was happening.. (which of course wasn't very reassuring to him) as everytime he parked the car and went outside, a huge pile of coolant leaked onto the ground before leaving... of course he was out of warranty, and didn't want to pay the bucks for a new engine, it never blew up... so he ended up just trading it in for a new z4.. dunno what ever happened next with it.. prolly ended up a ford a dealership or something but he had it for a few months like that... the dealer coudn't really figure it out, because we all know, the engines in these things are a mystery... dealers have no experience with the internals because, they just pop em in and out, and don't rebuild em... it could be a variety of things.. but if the dealer is gonna comp you a new engine on a 2002 996 c4 with 28,000 miles, i'd take it.. can't beat a new free engine.. wish i had cpo, let alone knew how important it was to have a car with one before i bought mine.. i think the porsche 996 internals are one of life's greatest mysteries.. nobody knows what the hell is going on in there... and every failuire, really is undiagnosed, as the internals just aren't accessible to diagnose what is wrong.. usually the response from the dealer is.. "well.. we think you need a new engine.. because.. well... we think.. in otherwards, they don't know.. they just know you need a replacement" as the car isn't functioning or passing ppi properly i suppose? i don't know.. i'm not a mechanic.. we owners just want the engine to work, so we can enjoy driving the damn car.. ppi and an inspection doesn't really mean anything.. my car passed ppi and full service inspection... i was in the clear and happy as a kid on xmas.. 1,100 miles later I had $47,000 in repair costs... and 5 of 6 months in the shop.. not so happy then.. it seems with these cars, engines flaws just happen.. i don't think there really is any way to detect them.. CPO really is your only protection from what i have seen, and i think most all of us agree... some have 80,000 miles with bad maintenance without any problems, some have 15,000 miles with 5 RMSes with a perfect service history.. who really knows, except porsche what is going on... and from what i've seen, the dealers are as clueless as the owners in many instances when it comes to the actual engine.. they just swap em out for new ones, like changing an air filter it seems, instead of trying to find a cheaper resolution.. btw: to the starter of this post, whom i forgot your name.. did porsche ever get back to you about comping you a replacement engine, or are ya gonna have to pay for the replacement yourself?

A replacement engine would be the perfect solution for you. You would basically be getting a brand new car... I would push for it

Isn't comparing 996 engines to previous generation engines an "apples to oranges" comparison?

Orignal poster here: Well, the word from Porsche is basically F-you buddy. They are taking no responsibility and my dealer has recommended I write a letter to Customer Commitment. After speaking to them, that is my only remedy, so I sent my letter today and sent a copy to my attorney. I am sure it will not help, but I wanted to let them know how unhappy I am about the situation. After owning 2 turbos and this 996, my plans to buy a Cayenne this summer or any other Porsche EVER again are totally out of the question. I will not reward this kind of engine failure by purchasing another product in or out of warranty. It is the principal for me more than the money honestly. I finished my letter like this: "If I do not receive some resolution in this matter, I will miss driving my Porsche, but with the risk of having to spend another $10,000 in 2 years when the warranty on the new motor expires, I will not miss owning it. As for IDoc - take the replacment motor and be glad you got it. The 2 year warranty will be great piece of mind, but if it was me, I would sell in 18 months so the new buyer can get 6 months of warranty. Owning a 996 long term is not an option for me anymore. Getting the deal unwound would be nearly impossible in Ca, but maybe you can get lucky and move on to a different car. Good luck. I will keep you guys posted on my "progress."

sorry to hear joe.. that's pretty much my story as well.. did you try calling 1-800-POR-SCHE which is supposed to be customer care? ha, it's hilarious.. it's the most useless number you could have.. might as well call 1-800-FUC-KYOU <g> porsche customer service/satisfaction with an out of warranty car is like a three dollar bill.. it may exist somewhere in the world.. but nobody has ever actually encountered it.. they told me the same thing.. "write a letter.." so they basically expect you to sit around with your car in the shop, waiting for 6 week, until they write you a letter denying your request.. atleast you didn't have a hole in your core like me... my surprise the first time was a $18,000 potential bill.. i'm with ya on the principle thing.. the fact is, these engines are a mystery, they do have "issues", maybe they don't all explode, but the engine is flawed, why else would they replace engines after 3 RMS issues, if the engine didn't have issues? and of course, when we buy these replacement engines, we're simply buying these used rms flawed engines.. with fixed rmses from the ones they comped the warranty owners.. it's like a pyramid scheme.. the owners that pay for the failed engines are paying for the warrantied owners to get new engines, and so on... prolly actually profits porsche in the longrun.. until then, the most you can do is enjoy the car.. remember joe, you do have 2 years once you get your new engine installed, so you may want to consider keeping the car for another 1 1/2 years like me, before you sell it... after all, if it fails again, you won't have to pay for a replacement again for 2 years... good luck with it all, most people here can't relate, until it happens to them.. like i said, as well, the money isn't everything.. it's the principle of the situation and the entire porsche customer satisfaction execs that make these decisions.. and they are the wrong decisions if they want unhappy owners to ever come back to them...

It is. I was just bringing up the comparison because someone a number of posts back had mentioned that Porsche (the brand), and not limited to the 996, was problematic and arrogant in their approach to R&D and customer service. As such, I intended to illustrate that my experience has shown them not to be (which still is not statistically powerful to suggest that they are not, but just my own anecdotal perspective), and it includes a history of 3 996 cars.

By the way, am I interpreting this correctly? Does RMS failure ultimately necessitate complete engine replacement? This seems preposterous to me. It would seem that Porsche service would simply install the newest generation RMS. Does anyone who actually knows how to service these cars know the REAL protocol for engine replacement? Is RMS failure one of these reasons?!

LVdell this is not aimed at you in particular, but DO YOU PEOPLE SEE HOW RIDICULOUS THIS KIND OF THINKING IS!?!?!?!?! You pay $80 grand for a Porsche because of its superior engineering and quality, and then when engines start blowing up because they're designed like crap, all you people can say is "yeah, but that's a great deal on a new motor." YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO REPLACE THE DAMN MOTOR!

Totally concur. My statement was merely one that only $8K is great for a new motor. My stance on the engine grenade discussion is one that has been clearly stated.....if you buy a car rgardless of the PPI done that has no history, came from an auction, bought from a Ford dealer, 4th owner, etc, etc, etc, then you have NO gripe against Porsche for a free one if you are OUTSIDE of the warranty period. With that said I would only buy one of these cars (since they are so pricey to own) as a new car with a full warranty or a CPO car so I have time to determine if the car is a keeper or not with an "insurance policy" during that time.

This kind of thinking is pure stupidity - so basically you're saying that anyone who buys a used Porsche out of warranty is an idiot, and they deserve to pay tens of thousands of dollars when things keep breaking? You're the kind of apologist that enables PAG to make record profits while producing mediocre cars.

can't believe some of you get idiot out of that way of thinking. Whether it be because somebody is a cheapskate, wants a better "deal", or whatever, then you have to be willing to accept that responsibility. I wouldn't say idiot though. When I bought my car I made sure it had 2 years of full warranty left as well as 2 add'l years of CPO. That was worth me paying a few thousand more than private party sale, auction, or even "Ford" dealer price. That piece of mind alone was worth it.

I'm not arguing that Porsche owes him a new engine. I'm saying that there shouldn't be engines grenading in the first place. I've had many Porsches, from 944, 951's, SC, Carrera, 964s, 993... NEVER have I had any major issues with any of my cars, and I have always tracked them very hard. Every model has its own weaknesses (wet sump 944s, water pumps, etc), SC chain tensioners, early 964 DMF and head leaks, etc... but these are easy fixes, many DIYers can handle these quite easily... But on an M96 car, if you have a problem, you have to replace everything. Engine problem? Replace engine. Transmission problem? Replace transmission. No alternatives. You chastize this guy for going to an independant shop to install the new engine? Should he have expected the new engine to blow up in 1000 miles? Should Porsche owners have to approach maintenance and repairs from a "I know this is going to break again soon, so I better cover my ***" viewpoint? Is that what makes Porsche ownership so great?

I don't think Bob's actions (buying a Porsche at a Ford dealer) warrant the harshness of the responses here. I think sometimes you see something as a good deal, but a risk. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. I personally would not buy a Sony TV from a non-authorized dealer, so it's no surprise that I would stick with buying a 911 from Porsche. The exception would be if I knew the previous owner - then I wouldn't have a problem with a private sale, otherwise the risk vs. reward is too high for me. Rob

Sad, but that is true. And again, there again is the reason I bought with an "insurance policy". I lucked otu and have a keeper!

so I have to ask, do you plan on keeping your 996 after the warranty is up?

Of course. Couldn't be happier. Besdies, I own the car and the difference between what I would get for it and what a new one costs is far greater than $8K!!!!

This entire argument is the same as the one I always hear in the high end home theater segment. I worked with a local company to do all my home theater stuff and they TOTALLY take care of me (warranty issues, FAQ, tech advice, etc.). But what realy irks them and when they act as has been discussed in this thread (dealer denying coverage or help) is when mr smart shopper, mr looking for a deal, or mr cheapskate, goes elsewhere to buy their product and then aks for assistance from the very dealer that they didn't buy from. Remember, the dealers are NOT Porsche, they are merely local businesses that operate a for profit company. If PCNA/PAG denies a good will or out of warranty claim guess who has to eat it? The dealer. If your dealer is good enough and you have a great relationship with him over time then chances are GOOD that you will be taken care of in your time of need. That is the very reason I have bought 2 cars from my local dealer and will buy my 3rd in the spring from them.

Guys, this is nuts. Someone please show me the STATISTICAL evidence that Porsche 996 cars grenade at a higher rate than other cars. All of the evidence is superficial and anecdotal, predominantly originating from drivers who have had this proplem and are emotionally irritated. Here's the deal with this forum. People come to it as purists/passionistas, mod lovers seeking advice, and those who have had problems that want to solve them. EVERYONE else, as represented by our small proportion calculated by the number of subscribers here divided by the total number of Pcars on the road, drives around with a grin on their face. This is insane. Perhaps we all want things to last forever but they often don't. I bought a new computer a 3 years ago. Last year, it started to go haywire. Dell didn't offer to repair for free REGARDLESS of how nicely I treated it. It was AFTER warranty. Frankly, repairs were more than just buying a new laptop. CAN ANY OF YOU IMAGINE HAVING TO BUY A NEW PORSCHE? (Sorry Bob, given what you spent, you could have bought a new Porsche). It's like Dell says, if you don't know EVERYTHING about the car from the time it was built until the time you have a problem after warranty, don't expect any sympathy from Porsche. They are in business to make money, no run a charity keeping 996s on the road forever. And frankly, even if you do have the car from build date until a problem arises, after the warranty is gone, you are on YOUR OWN. Yes, it would be nice if some dealers and PCNA help you out, but that is called GOOD WILL. Many of you need to grow up. Seriously, I understand if you're pissed, but just say so. Don't go running around blaming anyone but yourself for buying without warranty a car whose history may be questionable. And this isn't to say that if I have a RMS failure or engine blow on me that I won't be upset; instead, I'll try to negotiate as best I can with PCNA and the dealer. If all else fails, I'll have to pony up the money for a new engine from PORSCHE (again, notice who I am going to buy from Bob) that will carry 2 yrs warranty for me to discover if a problem still exists. What's the moral? If you don't like it, go buy a Vette. They NEVER have problems with their pushrod engines (btw, that is dripping with sarcasm).

Sorry about that, send it on over and I will take care of it!

You're Michael Dell?

Thanks Dell. It's in the mail. BTW, will you cover shipping charges for me too? Good will and all that. I mean, you want me to buy another laptop from you in the future when my current cpu disintegrates, don't you?

I think it's you guys who are MISSING THE POINT.. we're not arguing that Porsche owes them new engines, or that customer service is the problem here. We're saying that the engine DESIGN is the problem here, and their new philosophy of profits over quality is to blame. Has anyone ever heard of a 993 engine blowing up with fewer than 30,000 miles on it? I would love to hear from ANYONE who has experienced that, and I will shut up.

Sure.

Saying the 996 engine design is a problem, is very overstated.

Of course! That is how my company makes money.....by good willing EVERYTHING.

what it comes down to apparently is.. the porsche 996 is officially the first porsche in history that is designed to be a disposable vehicle... Once the warranty is up, sell it, toss it, trash it, give it away to the salvation army... or you're f**ked and dumb for keeping it apparently... while some may think this logic is acceptable, when i'm buying a car that retailed for $100,000 just a few years ago.. i find this unacceptable.. what happens in 2 years when your 996 trade-in/auction value is $19-$22kand the engine blows up and is $13k to fix? $13k to fix it or get $10k from a parts yard for it with the blown engine..... decisions, decisions many of us will have to make in a couple of years.. the porsche 996, the first $100,000 disposable vehicle ever created...

Bob, let me show you why you're wrong... 1) JD Power & Associates rate the 996 very highly 2) The 996 is the best selling 911 in history 3) The 996 is just as high in quality as previous Porsches, you're just criticizing it because you're jealous and you can't afford one (whoops, you already own one) 4) etc, etc These are some of the pathetic responses you'll get (and I have gotten) for sharing the truth about the new Pcars. Some people are in such denial, they can't accept the reality that's staring them right in the face. Nothing you say will convince them they're wrong -- as far as they're concerned, the 996 is the greatest machine Porsche ever made. It goes to show how easy it is to sell a product based on image alone, with little substance to back it up. People who wanted to impress others by driving Porsche back in the 80s or 90s, but who DIDN'T because they didn't actually like the way it drove... the company has now given them what they want -- a mass-produced luxury GT car that has none of the substance that made the old cars special, but has the right badge on the hood. The build quality and feel, not to mention the durability and over-engineering of the old Porsches was ditched starting with the Boxster-generation cars, and the company has had such positive reinforcement over that decision (sales way up, profits way up), that I don't think they'll ever return to their old philosophy.

And of course you have evidence of this other than what people might 'feel' in a survey as opposed to the actual reality of all 996's. 'sharing the truth' mmm...a big statement and you can of course establish this utterly objective truth?. This nothing but a subjective piece of waffle presented as the truth. Lame.

I can't believe you guys are still beating this poor thread to death. Don't let pcar get you all excited. He likes to stop over and stir things up. He spends so much time on the 996 board I'm pretty sure he's planning on trading his 993 soon. The 993 (i owned one) is a fine car but no better than your 996s. It's full of quality issues. Most owners actually carry extry window switches and a DME relay in the glove box. They blow the water out of their a-pillers after a rain storm. They wonder if the inside door handle is going to break off every time you open the door. Great cars but not perfect and we haven't even mentioned the valve guides, wiring harness or steering rack. (I think we would get a better response from Porsche on the RMS issues it it had the word "steering" in it. That must have scared the attorneys into action) The 996 has it's own issues but overall it's a huge advance. The GT talk is silly. The 996 is much faster than a 993 and sportscars are suppose to go fast. They are also suppose to handle and brake both of which the 996 does better. And don't talk to me about heritage. The 996 R/RS/RSR and cup cars have already built a 996 racing heritage that is far greater than the 993. And they are very close to the cars we drive. I know. I've bolted a whole bunch of RS/RSR parts on my stock 996 race car. And, I'm not going to be pulled back into this silly conversation. Jim

You want someone to present "evidence" that the 996 is inferior in quality? The evidence is in your garage pal. Or let me guess, you rely on JD Power to tell you if your car is high quality or not... Everyone, here we have Exhibit A, the 21st century imasulated man - he trusts what other people say more than he trusts his own instincts. He believes his opinion is only valid if other people are saying the same thing...

haha, JimB's definition of a sportscar begins and ends with "fast." I guess that makes a new Mercedes SL600 a better sportscar than a 993 also, because it's faster (and faster around a track)? I'm fairly confident a Cadillac CTS-V will beat a 996 around a track also, so I guess the Caddy is the better sportscar... Your 996 shares ZERO drivetrain and very few suspension parts with a GT3. You're one of the many people fooled by "it looks the same, it's the same car." Yes, and those Nascars are really just slightly modified Chevy Monte Carlos...

whatever happened to scouser? did he finally give up after his 8th rms and sell the car :> since this thread has already been beat to death by most of us when it comes to verbage and assumptions.. why not let scouser with his posts, names and the pictures do the speaking to put the nail in the coffin of this thread.. to each their own.. but for everyone looking to make their porsche purchase. CPO CPO CPO.. if i had only known.. after 2 years? trade it in for another CPO porsche i guess :> but hey, you can't criticize me for this post.. i didn't make it.. but it is always nice to see picture evidence of what we speak about not just being rumor.. "This is weird. Anyone who has been following my posts on this and other forums will agree that bobporsche has just echoed or duplicated exactly what I have also written. This is just the start of it for Porsche. As this 996 matures the real problems will come to light. But you guys better believe it, like it not, but believe it, 996 engines are grenading more often than you would like to think. And if they aren't blowing up then they are requiring replacement due to faulty manufacture of the RMS. Below is a picture I took two weeks ago at the back of my OPC when I picked my car up from its 6th RMS! Note that there are at east two other OPCs I know of here in the UK with a bunch of blown engines out the back like this. I also know of 2 two people with 996's with blown engines. Then there's all these postings we read. Even the mags are now discussing 996 engines blowing up ...... and the RMS problem. Tool Pants has even told us several times of his friends Porsche that is on it's 4th engine. What more evidence do you want. Then take my 996. Had it since it was about 650 miles old (I call that prety much new). Its got a knackered engine block that uses up seals like cigarettes. It's laid up in my garage awaiting major rebuild of my gearbox (or replacement). And it's only done 40,000 miles and serviced by the book. I am living evidence of bobporsche's statement. Face it munro86, the real twist is this marque. Your'e just sick of Bob venting off. He's got your back up 'cos you don't want to read what he says. There's no phsycotic issue here just an extremely injured Porsche owner with a lot of steam to vent....and a lot of it is because of comments that you have thrown out at him. I just hope you don't have half the problems he's had come your way. But if/when they do, you bet you will be here venting off just the same. (Pic below: 3 blown engines sitting in the rain)" - Scouser

As it turns out I have a lot of track laps in a CTS-V. Most riding as an instructor but also a dozen or so driving. When shifting the from third to fourth on the straight the traction light would come on from spinning the wheels. That was at about 100 mph. Crazy. Having said that, the car is much too heavy to be real fast on the track. I'm sure that given similar drivers, both the 993 and the 996 would be faster. Even if they weren't I would define it as a sports sedan and a damn fine one. Pcar, just for my amusement, tell us what a sports car is and why a 993 is one and a 996 isn't. BTW, I would never say a 993 isn't. It's a great sportscar. One of the best. Regarding just looking like a GT3.... Look, the posur's out front!

JimB's right: the 993 is just as bad. I had to replace my steering rack ($800 part). I'll probably have to replace it again in 10 years.

hello i am a new member i bought a 2000 996 62,000 miles everything is running fine ,are there any other 996 owners without engine problems out there with more miles than 62,000.? And what is RMS ?GARY

haha yeah you're right - I was horrified when I found out my DME relay needed replacement a few months ago! Imagine my shock, I'm thinking I bought a quality car, and I find out I have to shell out $20 for a part that failed! I'm never buying a 993 again!

Hmm, let me see I've owned 996's since early 2001. My 2001 C4 had 52,000 miles on it before I bought my 2004. I now have 33,000 miles on my C4S, that's a total of 85,000 miles on my 996's driving on the most hideous roads in the US without any major engine issues. So I'm only speaking from experience. I guess I've been extremely lucky.

I never said the 996 couldn't be a capable and fast track car... I'm just saying you have to budget for a possible engine/transmission failure that can happen at any time. The fact that you're ahead of a GT3 means either you're a better driver, or your car has been prepared better than his. But your car's quality is not in the same leaque as the GT3. Oh, and they're boring to drive compared to the old cars. But that's my opinion

Welcome to Rennlist Gary. RMS is Rear Main Seal, a somewhat common problem on 996s. Rennlist has a great Search function, you can find a wealth of information on any topic, including RMS. I must warn you though, any time someone has a problem with their 996 or Boxster and talks about it (like RMS, coolant leaks, etc), some members here like to pretend these problems aren't a big deal, and like to ignore them.

Not as common as you would think by hanging out here but nonetheless still the gift that Porsche gave the 996 community.

Hey LVDell, is that you in your sig? Do you have any in-car track vids?

Can we please just lock this thread and give poor Joe a new one?

Yes that is me. I have about 15-20 hours worth of in car video. I transfer everthing to DVD so I can watch it at home and critique (as best I can) my track time.

So now we're back to the crux of the problem re: 993 drivers and 996 drivers. You 993 guys are still 'wetting' your pants that Porsche went to a water-cooled engine that is faster, handles better, and LOOKS better inside and out then your car. By the way, pay careful attention to used car prices; I've noticed that the 993 values are creeping downward now that the 997 has been released. Let me reiterate: between my father and I, we have over 40 combined years of Porsche ownership (both new and used each and EXCLUDING the 1995 993 C2 that he sold to a friend of mine that DID have a wiring harness issue resolved for about $900 some years back) and a few hundred thousand miles of seat time. In that time, there has nary been one incident with the engine or powertrain. Alright, in truth, I omitted the time that oilpan ripped off my father's 2000 C4 cab when he accidentally rode over a cinder block lying in the middle of the East Side Drive in Manhattan (indeed, it's wise not to tail cars to closely in this city what with all the crud roads). I think we can agree that the incident was not an RMS failure despite the fact that it was oil-related. On an aside, when fixed, that C4 cab drove like a champ for another hard 3 years. A similar incident once happend to me in a jeep with an unpainted curb on the East Side Drive a year later and I was stranded. Go figure.

Edward, I appreciate your enthusiasm... guess we just have very different opinions. Enjoy your car

pcar64- do you actually race your car? I know Jim B does so I value his opinion but like you said earlier on- better driver/ better prepared car- what does that mean? If that is what is implied by you hell you coulda had my '94 toyota corolla station wagon(better prepared/better driver) win a race and you'll still stick by your point the 993 or earlier cars is the better car? Mike

I don't know if I follow your haphazard sentence structure correctly, but I'll answer the question I think you're asking... 1) You could conceiveably prepare a Geo Metro to be faster than a 993 around a track. That doesn't necessarily make it the better sportscar. Even if Jim's M96 car is faster than a GT3, that doesn't mean it's a better quality car. 2) It's even possible that Jim's car is slightly slower than the GT3 he's passing, but Jim is simply a better driver. I'm sure Jim can fill us in here, he knows why he's passing that GT3... skill or car Jim? To answer your other question, no I don't race, I don't have that kind of disposable income yet. But if you think a person's opinion on track performance is made more valid just because he can afford to buy and run a racecar, then my friend you are taking a very simplistic (and utterly foolhearted) view of things. There are DE hobbysists who are faster around a track than many "racers," and there are some racers who probably shouldn't even be DE solo qualified. Do you think there are local, UNKNOWN musicians who are more talented than multi-platinum rappers? I think the answer is an obvious "YES." But if you judged their talent based on something utterly simplistic, like record sales, you would be an idiot. So don't believe that just because some guy has the funds to race a Porsche in amateur club racing, that he's some sort of badass. I'm friends with plenty of guys who race (amateur and professional), and none of them pretend that they're something special.

Gary, Welcome to the insane asylum! LOL Just kidding. Glad you've stepped into the world of P-car ownership. As you can see from this string you'll get a wide variation of views here. Some from folks who have had MAJOR problems (i.e. bobporsche996) and others like RIADl and the like have been no major problems what so ever. I am a relatively new owner myself having bought my 996 in 2004. I bought mine from a non P-car dealership without a CPO and PPI too. The dealership specialized in high end used exotics and luxury vehicles so they had multiple Porsches, BMW, Mercedes and even a Ferrari or two on their lot to choose from; so that was comforting. Despite of that my car had a coolant tank crack/rupture (common), and had a frayed oil and fuel line when I took it into my independant shop (Thanks IMA, Fairfax VA again for the work and keeping the faith!) to check it out. At that time I also discovered I needed a new clutch and pressure plate as well. That whole repair cost me about $2800 labor included. At that time the folks at IMA did the PPI and gave my car a once over that I should have know to have gotten prior to purchasing it from the dealer I bout it from. I had supposedly covered my bets by purchasing a 3rd party extended warranty who covered nothing and has since gone bankrupt (1st Source Auto Warrany). They wouldn't even cover the coolant tank repair cause the warranty declines to cover any plastic parts or containers or reserevoirs in the fine print nor did they cover the fuel line which had frayed and oil line that was kinked which also was replaced that my mechanic said wasn't my fault. Luckily I then promptly asked them to refund my $$$ prorated of course and got about $2k back out of the $2800 I had spent with them for the warranty in the 1st place. Since then I have gotten a fairly clean bill of health from IMA and the car has run fine. No problems. Knock on wood...here! I think the gist of it all if I can summarize is: 1) If you buy a car without CPO or from a non dealer you should get a PPI 1st in order to see exactly what you are getting or have bought already (which I didn't know at all before buying and membership here to ask advice would had defnately helped me there) 2) A PPI doesn't guarrantee anything but is more a piece of mind and says that hey this car from what we see and can tell should be good to go. Nothing is absolute but hey the $200 is money well spent probably when you look at $8k for an engine swapout or the $40-50k you're spending on a 996 C2 3) Problems do happen; its a car and cars break down from time to time. Hopefully if your does it is something not catastrophic like bobporsche996 but it that does happen it seems that you're in a better place if you have a CPO or at least some relationship established with the dealer. However just remember its a Porsche NOT a Toyota so be prepared for a greater expense in parts & labor thn you're average Camry. But then again if you're buying a Porsche I kind of expect that to some degree...its common sense. 4) Remeber if your car is used and not CPO or has a detailed hx that you know you're subject to its past. I am and MD so it's like I tell my young and sometimes older patients for those little social problems/complaints; "Remember when you're sleeping with someone...you also are sleeping with everyone they've ever slept with in the past as well...sometimes that's a good thing..other times a horror story!" So a word to the wise and protect yourself accordingly! 5) That said enjoy your car and what will be will be. Just make sure YOU take the best care of it as possible and do timely maintence and hopefully it will love you back just as much a put a smile on your face as well. And at that time when you're ready to sell or trade it on to another future p-car owner who's always dreamt of owning and driving one you'll give them something to drive and be proud of that won't be a headache and more on themselves or their wallet. The guys/gals in this forum area a great resource and most will anwser questions readily; hell a few have sold me parts for my car they weren't using when I just asked for options of stuff out there or where to shop. Use them as a reource in my opinion and make some new friends but remember the source and no one is right 100% of the time. Rennlist isn't the gospel according to Porsche but it's close! Enjoy your P-car! Rob PS...Bob you did get a bad deal; and like with my M3 Porsche-NA probably should help you out somewhat in a perfect world that is!

I just want to throw in how I was treated by Saab when a design fault in the cylinder sleeves lead to major problems. My Saab, a 3.0 V6 TiD, is almost 4 years old and has done well over a 100K miles. Still Saab has replaced the engine at no cost a couple of months ago. Warranty was finished for more than 20 months and the mileage is, even for a diesel, relatively high. Saab Belgium simpy said it's a design flaw and that if the problem would have occured at a later stage, they would do the same. No need to tell that I'm very happy bout this, the cost for a replacement engine, which is made by Isuzu, is a heartbreaking 12.000 euro plus labour plus VAT(confirmed by two sources). I'm back to my fence now, just wanted to share how similar issues are treated by other car manufactures. PS: Saab makes huge losses, Porsche doesn't

Hey, I'm back in this! Here's the deal - I LOVE my 996 - and I'm going to put a motor in (a $6500 factory warrantied motor - by far the best way to go!) and keep it until I'm ready to buy a GT3. But I feel the other Joes or Bobs pain. We expect these cars to hold up and be engineered to do what they are sold to do. We carefully select a cared for car and lovingly maintain it too. Then at less than acceptable milage the motor fails (cracked sleeve?) in a manor not in line with page 17 of my cars sales book "Of course, a Porsche powerplant's performace must be equalled by longevity........Cams and countershafts are driven by chains designed to last the life of your car.....After all, we expect the Porsche 911 will endure for at least another 35 years." I'd like to get 10 years out of mine without a major failure. How can they say the timing chains last the life of the car and not expect the block/liners to last as well. I believe in the Porsche story: little guy killing giants with legendary durability and performance. I didn't want or expect a new motor, but I would have liked them to say - send the motor back and we'll analyze the issue and make an adjustment if it is warranted. Care and concern. A token refund on the new motor of $1k wouldn't impact Porsche, but it would show concern. Or if they don't want to have a monitary contribution, how about an upgraded oiling kit on the new motor at no cost. That would be great. They don't seem to get the part that we buy these cars not only because what they can do now, but because of what they have done in the past. I hope someone from Porsche reads this and thinks of a better way to hadle the small number of serious issues, espescially since the Caymen has the same engine as my 996! I don't want to see Porsche's reputation (or the 996's positive attributes) tarnished by a few issues. PS - I did put the 4th Gen seal in 3K mi ago during a clutch replacement. Never had a RMS issue! PSS - I challenge the "993-is-the-greatest-Pcar" crowd in the MidAtlantic to come to a Chesapeake Region AutoX for a good old fashioned 996 but kicking!