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YOUR RESEARCHI'm Going in ALONE....LNE Retrofit bearing
Reported or suspected cause
waterpump/timing belt
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Leading evidence: 'waterpump/timing belt' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'waterpump/timing belt' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check alignment' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
However, It will be inspected before I say i had a bearing failure.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The transmission and engine mounts want to be installed correctly to ensure the engine positioned properly in the car and the transmission likewise.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I've replaced a clutch slave before and had forgotten what a bitch it was to get it in place while getting the bolts in.
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I've had 'wandering' with other cars and an alignment always solved the problem.
I have the car up and stands. As i have time I will have at it....
For you other shade tree hobbiests, I will document as much as can. I will video the bearing extraction as requested by another weekend worrior.
I have looked at it, looked at the wsm, Talked to Jake (thanks jake). read everything I can find on-line. I feel I have a very good understanding of what has to happen...
In we go!
Thank you. I am not sure I will get that far this weekend. It looks like I am going to get to start tonight.
My plans are to get to the point where I am ready to pull the trans to engine bolts. If that is the case, I may be pulling the bearing tomorrow or sunday. I have to visit Harbor Freight tomorrow and pick up a trans lift. Then lowes and pick up the dowl rod we talked about last night. I picked up a universal Clutch Alignment tool today. Will that be OK?
Yes I am a big ***** when it comes to being under a car. I have a set of 6 Ton stands I have the rear of the car on, while the front it on the ground.. i plan on 2 of my extra set of 928 wheels under it as well "just in case".
Welp as I typed this the house has emptied, the wife is out with friends the kids are at teh neighbors..... On my way to the man cave
I'd really consider getting all 4 corners of that car into the air.. Pulling the tranny at that angle is going to be a bitch, stabbing it back in will be more of a bitch..
And when the IMS bearing comes out of the tube you'll get drenched with nasty oil thats been trapped in the tube for years.
Dont worry I didnt forget the oil and belly pans. They will be right after the axils
And tell me where else are you going to get better friday night entertainment?
so far belly pans are the worst part of the job.
10MM socket
Large phillips
10mm open end wrench
Dikes or good plyers to pull out plastic body rivit
So far the axils are off the trans. The oil is drained, the belly pans are off.
I guess it is time to remove the cross brace under the tranny and also all the life support attached to the tranny
Im stuck. i dont want to force them. How do the linkages pop off the trans? Looks like a ball and socket. Brute force?
Ed, where the thingy for the a arm attaches
just unbolt them together IIRC..... the entire linkage is bolted on the tranny....
US PET page 88.... #4 is the clip... but the whole thing bolts on by that bolt IIRC? Any luck?
Time: for tonight all I have time for tongiht. Have to find out about the shift linkage and babysit. I just started to unbolt the clutch slave. The wsm "Unscrew the slave and tie to the side with the host attached", YEAH..... First of all they are BOLTS not SCREWS and they are not exactly easy to get to.
I'd really suggest you get the nose up too. Worth the cost of the additional stands and like Jake stated will make it way easier to get the tranny back in.
Gots me one them fancy snow blowers....... Actually the first saturday in a long time with NO PLANS! The wife said "we" are going to clean the house... Little does she know "she" is going to be pissed and cleaning the house her self.. LOL.... MAybe,,, I talk a bigger game than I play
I have the stands.... I may, If I have help putting it up there
Before going further go ahead and park the engine at #1 cylinder TDC and lock it there.. Thats the position where all the IMS work will be done. If you forget to do this the cam timing will be compromised as soon as the IMS flange is pulled.
Check.... Will be the first thing on the list next time I crawl under. The neighbor was nice enough to pick me up the dowl tonight on his run to lowes.
Shark, I'm following along w/ you. Thx for taking the time to document your progress. This is much better entertainment than Friday night TV. And to think I wasted an 1/2 hour watching ultimate bathrooms on the DIY channel.
Hey Jake. Learning a lot from you. Appreciate your support on this forum. - Doug
Doug,
Glad to be of some assistance and education.
Shark, I'll have the shop emergency line on me all weekend, call me at [phone removed] if you need help. I will not be by the computer all weekend.
Jake, I know you are selling IMS upgrades and stand to profit from your interaction, but in my opinion, your support is amazing on this forum and I applaud you for your interest and backup while Shark Attack is doing this in his garage.+1 in my book.
Ok back at it today. I am going to have to leave for a while and go get my parts from the office and pick up a tranny jack.
Anyway, The Clutch slaved kicked my ***. If I had to do it again, it would be no issue. But you are almost doing it blind unless you are on a lift.
The slave is perched at about 1 oclock on the tranny and you get to it from the drivers side.
its a 13mm, you will need an 8" ext and swivel universal and a 4" ext
The top bolt is best removed with the socket, swivel and 8" ext. in that order
The bottom, you will have to carefully bend the line out of the way. The bolt is right behind the line. I carefully bent mine up and when underneith with the socket and 4" ext. after it is loose... Some fancy foot work gets it out of there and you can lay it on the rear suspention.
The bolts are located one above the other and the bolts face the 3 oclock position.
Ok I have to pop off my shift linkage then run for parts and tools
Ok trans is ready to come down. I have to go get my goods.
Jake, If you are here. How long do I need to cut that dowl rod? Will putting any bends in it make it easier?
+2 - and the movie is coming......... Jake is making one and this support level shows his commitment, the movie will make it so he doesnt have to hold the DIY's hand as much, but he IS and thats what's SOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOL !
Ok, Got the wife a staaa bucks.... Shes happy.
Harbor freight special 79.99....
Next I am going to turn the engine to TDC and pin the pully Ill get you a pix on this one,
****, Engines in the back... thats going to take some getting used to J/k
Here is some pix, remove the air filter and housing, Takes a straight blade screw driver (7 screws) and one 13mm Bolt.
turn the engine to tdc till the marks line up as shown in the pix.
Here is my special tool. Made from 5/16 metal rod from lowes (thanks Jim, (capt Chaos))
Here is me sticking in my special tool. I love using my special tool!
Edit: No need to remove the accy belt for this. I did becasue I didnt know what I was looking for
Also the whole air cleaner box can be removed by just taking out the one 13MM bolt and the hose clamp off the intake. No need to remove the filter. The whole thing will lift out as one piece.
wsm wants me to attach the trans jack at this point. Ahhh.. No, lets crack all the bolts that secure the engine to trans BEFORE we have this jack to work around
Wow, You've had your 996 how long? And you've already got it torn apart on the Garage floor.
If you ever pass thru Atlanta, call me so I can buy you a beer.
What went wrong? I never saw in the thread what you are attempting to fix.
got it! It wasnt too bad with a 3/4" ratchet. The 3/8 didnt cut it,
Edit: Actually when I said I got it here, Later I found out I did not. This bolt is wayyyyy the **** up there and you may want to try getting it from the drivers side also. I learned that when I was installing the clutch slave. I could feel the bolt on top and seemed to have more room on that side.
I dunno, 2 weeks and 400 miles, Maybe? lol IMS bearing and clutch
what the f*&ck? What kind of ******* bolt is that on the bottom of the tranny. Looka like a torx with more splines... WTF? I dont have a tool to loosen that. **** Me
You certainly deserve the 'brass *****' award in my book. I thought I was doing well after changing out my exhaust system. Take a break and have a few cocktails tonight.
Having Jake's support in this forum is fantastic.
I'm purchasing this Kit and other things to reinforce my engine too. But I'm going to tell you how someone did a home made retrofit kit in his 996...
In Soloporsche.com we have a hero. Someone who did something similar to LN Engineering, last year.
http://soloporsche.com/showthread.php?t=33716
"Barracuda", a soloporscher user, opened his engine to check the IMS. He built a hand made extraction tool to check the single row bearing (996 '03). He's car had 115.000 km, and the bearing was in perfect condiction. Nevertheless he decided to change the bearing for a new one to keep the reability of the engine for 100.000 km more.
He searched the bearing in one of the world wide best know bearing manufacturer: SKF. Someone advise him to go for a ceramic compound reference instead of the OEM steel bearing. So he purchased this one:
SKF Part number = 6204-2RSLTN9/HC5C3WT (Price 110 $)
After that he thought that the bearing support wasn't strong enough and ordered to make a reinforced hand made to a professional lathe operator. He made a 12 mm high quality steel bolt instead of the 8 mm OEM bolt, and asked him to adapt the 3 flange end piece to the new bolt caliber.
Besides, he told us that he prefers to leave the bearing out both circlips to allow the engine oil running through the bearing *****. He argumented that the oil was inside the bearing, mixing to the ***** grease, and was easy to come in but not too easy to get out the bearing, with the result of having contaminated oil into the bearing. This could make the ***** to fail in the future, so he decided to allow clean engine running through the *****. To seal the hollow shaft tube, he used a hand made cork seal. Besides, he change the engine oil every 5.000 miles (Mobil 1 5W50) to keep the engine free from wear.
I know all of this, is a bit rare, but his car is running fantastic.
actually those pics are great... I understand now how the bearing is held in AND how it comes out....his tool is simple but the mechanics of it are easy to understand, so that might help....
good post.
Hey Kyle....
just an FYI, that tranny doesnt "click" into place when going back in....the bell housing will be slightly apart (unlike the old american cars where they are seated prior to puttin gin the bolts)
You are pretty close.....!
I am going to have a few hours on it tonight yet. I am hoping to ATLEAST have the bearing exposed....
I am sore. My body is reminding me I am not 25 years old anymore
flywheel bolts are out. Need to consult WSM and see how it comes off:
EDIT: It just slides off. It sits on a small pin. I gently pryed it off.. It took very little effort
Quick fill the cut with grease!
And don't forget - the key is to stretch a little before bed. 5 minutes with toe touches to stretch the lower back and legs!
Ok here is where I am at. As you can see in the Pix, almost there.
Question for Jake:
1. In your instructions step 3, How the heck do you get those "cam plugs" out. Do you have to ruin them to do so?
2. Also from step 3, Do I REALLY need the cam tool to lock the cams?
3. Your step 4. Where the hell are these 3 tentioners?
After I get that all done i am ready to pull the hub flang!
I was at the emergency number I posted here in the forums last night all day today....
The cams do NOT need to be locked, the green plugs do not need to be removed. UNLESS you compromise the cam timing due to a goof.
I will not be by the computer again till Monday. Call me if you need something. I'll be up till 2300 tonight but will be at my firing range all day tomorrow and it'll be too loud to talk :-)
Good job! Its not all that bad really. Having owned several 928s myself over the years i'd way rather pull the tranny and do the rms etc. than a timing belt and tensioner refresh on a 928. Clutch is easier on a 928 though.
>>blush<<, not really.. A wrench and the Jake Manual is all it takes. I did a lot of homework on this one.
Im on Sam Adams number two. and the big ***** I am took a nice long hot bath. It certainly reminds you how old you are. I see a lift in my future if I stick with the 911 series. Why didnt they make teh whole rear part a hatch and make it detachable? If they come out with that in the next few years. I WANT PAID.
Wayyyyy too much foul mouth going on in there....
Thx.... But really, Its not back together yet.
Not sure I had to take 3 hrs off today to get parts and someone came and bought some of my 928 stuff.
Yeah Laying on concrete does that!
..
Yes I see that. Not sure what i am going to do.
No this car has never Dripped oil in the whole 3 weeks I have owned it
... But something is certainly leaking there, Why is it all gummy? I am thinking abotu cleaning it up and not touching it
That is clutch dust mixing with the oil....
So, just because you dont see it weep oil, doesnt mean its not leaking... I guess if it drips bad enough, it will eventually weep through the housing. It must have just started leaking for you.
Kyle-
Looks good so far! You're keeping us entertained on a snowy weekend.
Are you replacing all the tensioners?
Will be interesting to see the condition of the IMS. How many miles do you have again?
Any records of the RMS replaced?
My engine brace is Wayyyyy over engineered. I will get you a pix next time I am on the car. Maybe later today. I have to spend some time with the wife to keep all happy.
Tensioners: Not sure yet. I really want to get it back together But I will have to make this call after I pull them. Even so you can not get to all of them, so in a way, whats the point? A smart shopper can get an engine for 5K a guy that just wants to gettr done will pay 10-14.. I was about to drop almost 4 into this engine (with labor from an Indy) then thouht WTF am I doing that for after I got a quote on a yard engine?
I am at 103000 miles
RMS, No, not that I have seen in everything I have. I have talked to the last 2 owners. (that in total only had the car for 2.5 years. But I can not the snob nosed first owner to return my calls.
The first owner probably doesn't want to talk to you because he bought the car when it was new, and it's now been sold to the 4th owner, you. Glad you are progressing with your teardown, nice to see you sharing info. with the rest of us.
Very inspiring.
I *totally* relate to the pain a middle aged man feels lying on his back on a concrete floor working on his rear engined Porsche. I use one of those foamy workout mats which helps but it's never good. I'm planning a hoist in the garage that I'm building.
Good luck and don't neglect that RMS shark. You'll just end up taking it apart again.
Yeah, plus the money ( I may be) saving on this repair would certainly have paid for it.
OK, well back at it tonight. My goal tonight it to clean up the bearing area and hopefully pull the bearing. Video on the way. I ordered the RMS from my local indy and it will eb here tomorrow.
The RMS requires the use of the special insertion tool. I've been installing seals in everything from tractors to Porsches all my life and I can generally install any seal without a tool but not this bastard.
The tool makes it a breeze, without it you'll probably ruin the seal and end up with a huge leak.
I missed your call Saturday evening, my phone never rang! I'll be available tonight if you need help.
I FINALLY GET WHY THE OPEN END GOES OUT !!
the bearing rides in a tube, the tube is mosly sealed and the end we see thru the cover on the flywheel side is exposed to the engine oil because the bearing doesnt ride in the block/case... it rides on the tube and is attached to the block/case via that bolt from the inside with a nut on the outside....right?
AND
I dont think you have to mess with the cam guides at all for this job, only the cam chain tensioners
am I right.
lastly does it matter on TDC if you are on the exhaust storke or the compression stroke?
E
Ok, the tensioners are 32mm socket, Deep socket is best. They are not all the tight
Pix one is the 1-3 side tensioner. It is really asy to get to. It is on the drivers side and faces the ground.
Next pix is a tensioner... I was expecting something different.?
Next pix is me pointing the main tensioner. You have to drop that oil line a bit to get the socket on it.
and there is the oil on the garage floor I was expecting before. LOL..... It never takes the path you expect.... Watch it the tensioners are loaded with oil and slightly spring loaded
Ok I see a bearing and it appears to be in fine shape. You guys better take collection and get me a new flip video.... Cause mine is full of oil. LOL
Ok next is time to start a pullin.... Jake said he would be on the phone with me if I wanted. I am going to start off cowboy style on my own and see what happens.
ta daaaaaa. its out, Video uploadeding to utube now
Walk in the park. That was a big, whoopdee do about NOTHING..
I did it just as jake said. I put some pressure on it let it sit and while it sat there it made 2 popping sounds and then it came right out.
new bearing is in, I have video. but I am still waiting on puller vidoe to up.
Jake Im going to PM you my number Please call me. I need to make sure the new bearing is in as far as it is to be.
CAKE !!
You got the honor to make it, now lets all get to ordering them!
Check your tensioners very carefully for gauling on the sides... that RMS is a must fix after you get the IMS in and the cam tensionors back in.... then a quick tranny in and you are home free.
GREAT VIDEO !!!
Excellent!! see, it doesn't take a certification from Porsche or a million dollar facility to extract the dual row bearing.. Just an improvised puller, some common sense and dirty hands...
They say it can't be done. HA!!
Great job, take your time finishing it up and call me if you need to, I'll be up till 2300.
(BTW_ unblock your phone number, else my system sends the call straight to voicemail and my phone won't ring!!)
its not back together yet and I shouldnt count my money at the table... But if I had to guess i just put 600-1000 in my pocket. see honey, saving money already, LOL
IIRC when changing the RMS Porsche wants to replace a couple of the case bolts too??
Are you planning that when doing this......
did you get a new clutch set
I have not seen any flywheels but it looks like it has hard spots from oil being on there which MIGHT cause chatter at some point....
The bolts are on a TSB IIRC they are thought to leak? and its the top one outside of the flywheel area, and the bottom one and maybe the one inside??
anyone confirm?
I think we should chip in and send him a replica of Jules' wallet from Pulp Fiction - the one that says "Bad ***** ****a" on it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=263602_263622
Give me some opinions here. New FW or not. Im not a tracker, nor do i beat the car relentlessly... Yes I like my 0-60 as fast as i can.... But the older i get the more i find thats not what it used to be... So whadda think?
Put the tensioners back in, Turned the engine 2 complete revolutions by hand, Put the accy belt back on. Put the air cleaner back on.... Next day or so I will start putting the tranny back in..... Walk in the park. It was fun and now i feel like its "my car"....
I dont know how to check the flywheel -
IF you are going at the RMS the is a TSB on rennteck called "oil leak/engine bolts" I believe they are cheap and easy to replace while you are there..... since you have an obvious oil leak I would swap them just for insurance.....
you are doing the RMS right?
FOUND IT. why the IMS fails.... On yoru deck lid "Made in France" There ya go.... And if you want to challenge that, I have one name for you,,,,,, LaCar!
Did you have the flywheel on when you turned the engine over? I had to grind a bit of seal flange (in the instructions) to get it to clear.
Rick
99 996C4
87 944S
Kyle,
Pull the seals off the bearing clean out the oil and give it a spin. I have my old one as a trophy on my computer desk. When I first pulled it out, it seemed fine, but the more I play with it, the more noise and rattles it makes. Mine had 105K.
Rick
99 996C4
87 944S
Crap, No I didnt on the flywheel. ****, I hope it clears. I dont want to pull it apart.
I promised Jake the bearing. He has informed me the bearing was on its way. I guess there should not have been any oil come out when I pulled that bearing. The fact that oil came out of the tube says the seals on the bearing had failed and thats why the oil was in the tube.
This job wasnt really that hard. But it was very physical... I hurt all over that first day and I am sure I have another day of that on the way with putting it back together.
With the mileage and condition of that flywheel I'd replace it due to the look of it if it were me. Unless you like the pulling the transmission tango alot, i'd replace the sucker. Do a search on this forum...lots have had great success with the lightweight flywheel. I have no opinion on it as I havent ever done the upgrade. I own a machine shop and have read with interest the pros and cons of resurfacing the dual mass. Again, if it were me, it is way cheaper to just get a new one than fart around with turning the one you have and hoping for a competent lathe operator. Trust me when I tell you it is possible to get er done, but easier to just get a new one, whatever direction you plan on going. Just my .02 worth. Cheers and good luck with whatever you decide.
Fabulous job! You're the man, Kyle!
What's this flywheel clearance part? Is that a new bearing support cap or something for the IMS bearing? Is it a different size than what you took off?
Kyle,
Nice job on this upgrade! Been quietly going along with this procedure since I really covet the 996 aero coupes too!
Want one myself but am troubled about this whole IMS issue which also reminds me of the 928 TBF issue. So your write up is spot on for me!
Will be putting the 89 928S4 up for sale soon and the hunt will begin for a 996 aero coupe or a GT3.
Thanks again and great job!
Cheers,
Kyle has done a great job on this.. Working with limited experience in adverse conditions with little to no support equipment. These are the types of success stories that I like to assist with and these types of experiences prove that it really is simply mind over matter. When faced with a task and no book is available the people who can improvise a solution, adapt to the situation and overcome adversity are those who deserve the kudos.
Kyle did this job easier and with LESS tech support than any of the Porsche techs that I have dealt with at dealerships. Kyle proved that a guy can do this in his garage with the "least" amount of support equipment, tools or reference material. Thats what we call doing the most with the least and thats awesome!
The best part he did it all without the necessity of a single Porsche special tool...
We'll never know if this repair was overkill or much needed. I guess what it got the user is peace of mind. Based on my readings, I fall on the bad Porsche bad side v. falls within normal parameters of engine failure. There are just too many posts and blogs about M9X engines failing to call this a blip on the 996 radar.
Thanks for documenting.
Since Kyle is a 928 owner he has had a lot of experience doing just what you describe Mr. Raby.
Seriously, from what Kyle has shown, this modification seems pretty simple and straight forward compared to what we do on our 928s in our home garages.
Good work Mr. Raby in giving 996 owners a well engineered product to fix a potential big problem!
Cheers,
I come from a background of ancient aircooled engines.. Due to that I have had to improvise most every tool and procedure over time.. I don't see that kind of hard charging attitude in the M96 world, thats why I respect guy like Kyle so much!
We hope to assist many more people like Kyle in the future that choose to do this work themselves.
A lot of PM's about job cost.
Bearing and puller 660.00 +/- 10
Clutch Sachs 500.00 +/- 10
RMS 20.00
trans lift 80.00
oil 100.00 (**** me!)
Oil Filter 15.00
Degreaser 10
5/16 metal dowl 3
small catch basin to catch oil out of ims $6
Things in thought:
Flywheel- looks like 4-600
Misc nuts and bolts 20.00
The flywheel looks fine from the pictures. I would check the TSB on it and test it. A new dual mass runs about $800. Mine looked more "burnt", I just hit it with some heavy grit sandpaper and it was good to go.
Rick
99 996C4
87 944S
FWIW, when I had it resurfaced it came back out of whack, so had to replace it with the AASCO LFWF, which opens up a whole other can of worms, as you get a lot more rattle from your input shaft on the tranny.
I largely remedied that rattle with the Redline Heavy Shockproof tranny oil and have to say that both for street and track use, the LFWF is the way to go.
JP
RMS isnt done, I am going to go about making my own tool. I thought about consulting people on it... But when I do, the whole simple project turns into a confusing mess of "you cant do that, be careful you dont do this, The stock tool does this and that...." and frankly I dont care. I do very well on my own. I will give you a hint and tell you different sizes of PVC pipe is going to to be used. I will report on this as well and let you know if I screw up my RMS or it goes in good.
Yes on degreaser, But you still cant tell..... And you should see my hands.... my wife said, "you are cooking dinner with those", I said.. I scrubbed till they were raw and it will nto come off.
Yeah here is what I choose to do. I am going to use the flywheel I have.... A clutch is 550 bucks, a fly wheel is 800-1300... Worst case, I lose an extra 550 on a clutch.. Thats the way it got.... But I may save at least 800. And its failure isnt catastofic to the car.
Thx
Well done with your ingenuity regarding 'wrong tools', no lift, and no prior Porsche training.Like I mentioned before, you have brass ***** and solid determination, nice job .
I have a tremendous amount of R and D in that. I am thinking about marketing them. The wood is specially treated and then blessed and dipped in holy water. It is then aged for 28 years on the moon to dry to assure as little expansion as possible over different humidity. They are then custom cut to the specific length you require depending the type of jack stands you are going to use. They come treated with a variety of colors and even include the Porsche Logo burned in the side with a cattle iron.
Retail will be 4999.00 each. A bargain at twice the price.
==================================================
I do have to add a note here about my new found 911 friends. In no way is thie meant bad. But you guys dont know what you are missing.Looking back now, I am really amazed at the amount of praise and shock I have gotten over this repair.
You guys had me really scared going in. In fact at first I was even brainwashed to not even do my pads and rotors or horns. It appears my 928 is a much more complicated car. The 911 is a little more intimidating becasue you have to do everything from the underside.
My point is, for me the car is a hobby, part of the hobby is picking up a wrench. I am glad I did on this one. The owner of the 911 vs the 928 is night and day. The 928 guys are pretty much used to the fact that if we want it done right, We have to do it. The 911 guys seem to be if you are touching the car with a wrench you hear big gasps all around the room and everyone covers their eyes.
So I encourage you to pick up a wrench and have at it. They didnt have special secrets from outterspace when then designed it. Fear not my friends and dig in!
I know the IMS job's done, but what matters is the number of miles of trouble-free driving we all hope you get to pile on in the months and years ahead.
The results are not yet in, right? But even then who knows if you really needed to do this in the first place?
according to the people my bearing seal had just recently had been compromised. This was determined because:
1, I had oil in the IMS. If the bearing was 100% this would have been dry
2, It had to start to leak recently because the oil was not burnt black.
After the seals are compromised the original lube that is in the bearing gets washed away. The bearing is not made to run with engine oil as the lube, Its too light. So when this happens this is the start of the end. So I feel my bearing may have gone another season or so. But I feel it was on its way out.
The new bearing is made to be lubed with a lighter oil not grease. The bearing also has a known and proven longer service life. If I feel I have a good and solid repair. And if something fails You guys will be the 3rd to know behind Me and the tow truck driver. However, It will be inspected before I say i had a bearing failure.
Very nice job and thanks for sharing. You may have said over the 11 pages so forgive me, but what would you say was the approx. time spent once the car was in the air until it was sewn back up?
Spot on assessment of the 928 ownership experience. I couldn't even imagine trusting mine to some indie for a timing belt change and the dealer doesn't want any part of working on them at least around here.
RMS is out and I am awaiting the seal. My Local indy got me the "rear seal" just the wrong rear. A good parts guy would have caught that and asked.
Time? I was going to track it but I didnt.
Friday is when I started Not counting time getting its *** in the air, I did that thursday....
Friday we will say 530-8= 2.5
Saturday 10-530 Minus 3 hrs for parts run and a visit from a friend 5.5
Saturdat 7-9 =2
Sunday-0- Wife maintainence
Monday-5-10- 5
Tuesday 7-830 1.5
Total to now and I am not started putting it back together yet 16.5 but I am really poking around. I would minus 3 hrs for this thread and other dilly dally stuff.
I am only 1/2 way done. But i am held up on waiting for the RMS.
If I had to make a guess I would say i have another 10-12 to go after I get the RMS in.
Keep in mind, I have never had a tranny or clutch out of a car before either.
Kyle,
The surface of the flywheel is one thing. There are also specs for how far the flywheel returns when you hold the crank side and twist the clutch side.
From Renntech _ you should join there also lots of good info and TSBs and other specs.
"Can the DMF be twisted by approx. 15 mm to both the left and the right, and does it then return to approximately its initial position?" -- then the flywheel is good.
"Can the DMF be twisted beyond the dimension stated above (excessive turn) without a noticeable increase in the spring force?" or "Is the DMF fixed (can not be twisted)?" -- then the flywheel is bad.
Kyle, you are correct on the "different" personalities in
this
room, vs. the 928 (or 944) room. The biggest being the average price of entry - until recently, 996s took a different buyer with a different mentality than the 928. This means people with different service expectations (and, perhaps a different age) are paying attention to this thread.
Far more 996 owners are customizing their interiors to suit their personalities. Far more 928 owners are programming standalone fuel management systems to get more power.
We're, not all like that Kyle, some of us are prepared to do partial engine drops to wrestle in a new coolant tank (that's a MkII issue - the MkI just slips right in) for instance, but your point is taken. Things are a bit different over at Renntech.
A *lot* of this has to do with the fact that the 996 doesn't have all that many issues to deal with, unlike your 928, and my old 911.
Fact is I sometimes have time on my hands and I think that maybe I'd like to tinker with the car, but it doesn't bloody need anything done (usually - right now the sunroof is flaking but that's another story). I usually end up washing and waxing and taking pictures of the interior.
The (second hand) PSS9 install will be next, and yes interior bits will be removed and impact wrenches deployed.
Hey - champ work on that IMS bro' - snap some pics of your RMS install too just to tie it all up in a neat little package for us.
Indeed, the 996 has been the most reliable platform of a Porsche I've yet to own or work on both personally and professionally.
I guess we're always afraid or something. With the 944s it was the waterpump/timing belt.
Awesome, Kyle. Props to you. When I have to do this (gonna swap in a rebuilt trans and do the clutch and IMS bearing at the same time), I'm gonna use a buddy's lift at his shop. I do all my own work, but even with a lift I was still a little nervous about the 911 work. Now I know it'll be cake considering you had to do it on your garage floor, and came out smelling like roses! Rockin.
I appreciate all the blow by blow posts too! Now I know what to expect before I even get there!
With the 996 becoming cheaper and cheaper the cars are finding their way into the hands of the Porsche enthusiasts that do their own work. This is why we are focusing our efforts on reference materials and support for this group.
The more cars we can keep away from the dealership, the happier we'll be. No one develops a platform like the guy at home in his garage.
And apparently so will the dealerships, which don't necessarily want to service our 996s anymore (obviously there are exceptions however). And that's fine by me.
I hate to tell you guys this. I like my 996. I like the fact it is 15 years newer than my 928. But this little sucker has more catastrophic issues than a 928 ever did. Sadly you can feel the quality differance in the cars. They both have their qualities, But the 928 blows it away in quality and comfort. The 911 is better in the twisties and it is a full second faster 0-60.
But if you get out of the 911 and get in the 928 it is 10000 times more confortable. The 911 wagon ruts all over the place and pulls in the sloap of the road. The 928 goes straight as an arrow no matter the road conditions. The 928 feels a lot more "planted" and "solid" when you drive it. it just doesn't feel cheap.
The 928 has been over 140 MPH and it is like you are going 60, Rock solid. I can not speak for the 911 on that aspect. I have only driven it 400 miles and I dont think I even broke 100MPH yet. But with the way it jumps all over the road I dont think it is going to be as securing at speed. We'll see.
But anyway. The 928 is a fantastic and very reliable car. And I am not speaking trash here, I am speaking from experiance. I am not a 928 guy never owning a 911 and talking ****.
I can here it now "well if you like your 928 so much drive that". I am a bit of a show off. I like the attention the 911 brings. So far EVERY TIME the car has pulled into a gas station, grocery store, department store, Fast food drive through... Someone has had something to say about the car.
what - NICE IMS BEARING!
I drove a 928 and have a couple friends here in Seattle with them. Great cars. Personally I was scared of the 928 for mechanical reasons - I wanted a car I could work on a little but not have to.... one that I could drive everyday but not have to.
the 996 settles down at speed. 80 is where it begins... it gets better and more road huggy as you go up.....
So now you have your big ***** and new bearing in you should hit a couple DE events and get some miles in the 996 - agreed it is NOT a 928 (love that V8 sound too!) but there is a reason it is the "bench mark" sports car -
I would check your alignment. I do not have that 'wandering' with either my 19" or winter 17" wheels. I've had 'wandering' with other cars and an alignment always solved the problem. You'll also save your tires in the process.
Yes the car hunkers down from 80-140 and is very solid.
A plastic drinking cup the size of the seal and rubber malet to set it in...just make sure it is in 6mm deeper them original by marking with sharpie first before removing original. I think as long as it is in further in and not riding in same spot (because wear spot on main shaft from original) and inserted square you are good to go
Noooo wayyyyyyy Sir... I am going to wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over engineer something... Im not letting me off that easy.. No sir reeeee.
That tool is going to require a thread all its own....
Not so much at high speeds because how often do any of us sustain those speeds in public or on the track? It's when the car is asked to do more... i.e. brake hard and turn hard and transition into yet another turn in the opposite direction... where it actually feels smoother, more planted, and in a word effortless than when dawdling around on public roads or freeways which is absolutely Jetta boring.
For such a staid looking car the 911 gets crazy attention and it's mostly positive.
I have a two post lift in the garage and that is the best thing ever, I can get all 4 wheels off the ground in minutes. When I did my maintenance I welded up a engine support brace from some scrap angle I had laying around, it bolted up in place of the roll bar.
Rick
99 996C4
87 994S
The seal fits very tightly and the bore is not forgiving for install without the tool. The bore has no step to stop the seal from going in too deeply or to seat it squarely in the bore. The problem thats encountered when the seal is not installed with the tool is the seal going sideways in the bore and since the bore is so tight the seal loses it's concentricity and is compromised.
I am no fan of special tools, but I spent what was required for this certain tool.
Not to say it can't be done, because I have done it... BUT I will say its a risk that I would not want to take and will not take again.
I agree to each his own on tools/methods and my method does require a @@##MaGic@@## Cup and a certified tech from the land of OZ to use it.
The Indy I used once used the incorrect/outdated tool unannounced to me and paid good money for there knowledge and that did not get me very far...actually about 1/4 mile. Life's a box of chocolates. As a side note it helps to check for square by measuring from the outer flange to the seal at 12 thru 9 o'clock positions.
The 911 is more agile as it's more of a "sports" car than a GT like the 928. I think your quality observation is more of a perception based on things like the sound you hear when you close your doors, etc. But as far as chassis stiffness and any other measurable demonstration of "build", the 996 should be superior.
What's your 928 weigh? My 996 weighs in at 3050 lbs, which I consider light for a 320 hp car.
An extra 1/4 tonne goes a long way to making a car feel more planted. The 996 does 177 miles per hour too.
I dunno - nothing against the 928, and it's not like I've spent a lot pf time behind the wheel so anything I say would be talking ****...but suffice it to say my first 996 felt more planted than my 911 did, while my second 996 dodges and weaves a bit. It's *entirely* due to alignment and ride height though. The first 996 was M030 lowered. The current car is NA stock.
FWIW, mine did that when I got it w/ 10K on the odo. After a 6 mos or so, I bought a new set of tires & 95% of that disappeared. I think it had to do with the way the car had been driven, leaving more of a sharp edge at the tread/sidewall transition.
Well now it is very appearent. Of what my tool has to do. It is hard to keep the seal straight when you are putting it in. It goes in just fine. But keeping it from looking like a warped 33 vinal album is something different. So I am glad I bought 2 seals. Looks like I may have to pull the first one out and start over with ma modified tool.
Does any one know how deep the Seal is to be? I read 14mm. But where are we measuring the 14mm from? The end of the crank?
Jake I have PM'd you a few times with no response about flywheel clearence.
The beginning of that last post reminded me of a haiku...
Kyle's IMS
He changed it in a jiffy
Damn RMS seal
Jake knows those bearings
Helping 996 owners
Change them right away
(Sorry, can't wait for my train ride to end...)
Me too!
How about
:
Kyle has a purpose;
To show posuers how to wrench;
like in the old days
or
Jake's IMS fix
is not so hard to install
with improvised tools.
Love the haiku!
Oh:
Oil inside the shaft
Upgrade is indicated
Kyle gets the job done
or
Oil in his mid shaft
with 2x4 engine brace
shop fees avoided
someone make me stop.
MORE CANS! - this guys hates CANS!
I was thinking there needs to be a back part of the tool to push against until such time that it enters the case (not sure how far that is....) THEN the front pusher tool would keep it straight AND the pusher should fit the crank diameter pretty close so it stays straight
PICS?
I found something at lowes that I think is the perfect tool. It s a PVC fitting from lowes. I will post info when I make it work.
Now, Does anyone know how deep I should install this seal? The WSM simply says "as far as you can with the tool" Thats just frookin great... After I can get this measurement I can cut my tool to length.
And, am I to install the seal dry or wet
The seal goes in dry and as far as depth not sure that's why marking original seal and going 6mm deeper is the ticket. The measurement I took was from the outer case inward. If no one has a depth maybe you can see seal markings on the shaft? Try this link for some tips.
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/996rms/rms1.php
Go to this link and you will see the full procedure of replacing the RMS with lot of pictures.
You did an awesome work. This is the best thread I read so far.
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/996rms/rms1.php
Thats part of the issue.. The cases have a variance that limits the ability to gain a surface measurement.. The proper tool indexes the depth of seal installation from the flywheel mounting surface automatically.
I figured that out. I need that measurement. I have the perfect home made tool. It is a peice of pvc from lowes and will take VERY little mod to make ti work and the way it is built will even sit centered in the hole and on the RMS. I just need to know how deep off the end of the crank the seal goes.
Looks like you can buy the ZDMAX tool off ebay for between $110 and $185
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Tool-...motiveQ5fTools
I just used a piece of PVC pipe and a micormeter to get a even distance from the end of the crankshaft
Rick
99 996C4
87 944S
wow, Pull the frywheel to 19 ft#, then on second time around another 1/4 turn... That 1/4 turn on your back... WOW.....
The seal IS IN AND STRAIGHT! Pix of tool at 11.
up untill right now i had no idea why you needed a clutch centering tool.... Becasue the disk must be centered before you attach the pressure plate, Because after you attach the PP the disk isnt moving and you need it all to line up when you put the tranny in... Got it! daaaaaaaa
clutch is in. thust plate to flywheel 17ft# make sure you pull them down only a few turns at a time. moving your pattern opposite of the one before to not deform the FP
Awesome thread Kyle! I just spent most the afternoon here at work reading and watching it. I wish you lived closer so when I need help with my Shark you could be here to assist and teach me. Don't sell the 928!!
Kyle's a great, knowledgeable car guy, 996 crowd. He'll be an asset to this forum.
Thanks for the kind words Rick. I think I have it priced low enough the wife thinks I am making an effort While just a little too high for 180K on the clock. teee heeeee..... Had an offer of 5 the other day.... Narrow escape
Time for dinner. I just got the tranny back on the jack while under the car. Not enough room for the tranny and the jack to slide under the car together. BY MY SELF...... WHEW....
it has to go is straight to the engine, check the gap at top and bottom... they have to be equal - rotate the tranny and wiggle in and out... the splines on the shaft may not be lined up with the clutch.. of you rotate them... they should align....
IIRC we put the tranny in gear and turned the output (axle) on both sides the same dirrection (they want to tunr opposite each other which doesnt turn the trans input shft... you have to wiggle a little to remove tenssion on the input shaft so it can turn....
AND the tranny has to be sucked up with the bolts... It does not "snap" into place and mate up to tha back of the motor.... I was really fearing we were doing it wrong, but it worked OK and I have confirmed this with other people....as long as the shaft and clutch disc are meshed
I am in the home stretch.
A note on the clutch slave.
If you are using a trans jack. I >think< you have enough room on the line to drop the tranny a bit before you pull the slave. Same thing with installation. The CS was the biggest bitch of the job and the most tiring.
My hands hurt, My Shoulders hurt my for arms hurt. And I am TIRED..
Left to do
Oil
rear axils
airfilter
crank it up.
If ok
belly pans
drop it
Great job!
I guess all that myths that this job can't be done and the bearing can't be extracted are busted again.. Make sure you drive over and see that master tech over at Porsche. Take the extracted dual row bearing with you and make him eat a little "crow".. You performed like a pro in adverse conditions and I LOVE to see that!
can someone ease my mind a bit. When I started the engine and I went to engage teh clutch the engine Really Bogged down. I wasn't giving it any gas But It seemed to bog way down for it being on jack stands and no wheels. Maybe I am just used to the low end torque of the 928??????
Can't ever remember running a car with car supported on jack stands and wheels in the air and certainly never a Porsche.
There is a possibilty with the car in the air and the rear suspension/drivetrain drooping way down this can account for some of the bog you felt. When half shafts are at an angle they present a load. Obviously the car's suspension and drivetrain is designed to be most efficient when the car is supported by its tires and the drivetrain's half shafts are parallel with the ground.
You want to be sure when buttoning everything up the engine's aligned on the engine motor mounts properly and the transmssion aligned properly with the engine. Most engine bellhousing or transmission housings have several dowel pins that help ensure the transmission and engine are aligned properly.
The transmission and engine mounts want to be installed correctly to ensure the engine positioned properly in the car and the transmission likewise.
If there is any doubt you need to get back under the car and inspect and check these to make sure they are installed properly.
If the bog is real and indicates some kind of binding or mis-alignment then the transmission and possibly even the engine need to come out and the reason why there is binding figured out and corrected.
Before you do this, before you run the engine any, go over all vacuum line and gas line hook ups to be sure nothing's been left disconnected or there is no gas line pinched. If car has a cable operated throttle be sure the cable is routed properly and engine movement isn't causing the throttle to move.
On the ground -- with parking brake on and foot near the brake just in case --and idling the engine should not react any when you depress the clutch and release the clutch. Once warm the transmission should shift from one gear to any other without any difficultly. A problem with this could suggest a transmssion/engine alignment problem or a clutch disengagement/engagement problem.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I dont believe it.... Not one, keeper, nut, bolt, little plastic peice, thing-a-macall-it... Left over... Other than the 4 peices The kit replaced.
Let me tell you how much I hate belly pans.... Time to sit it on the floor.
Agreed, from another guy who owns both, has driven both over 100,000 miles each and wrenched on both.
Question, does this IMS bearing problem effect tiptronic cars? I would guess getting the autobox out of the way to do this job is a bit more of a challenge.
Congrats Kyle and thanks for being the "explorer" you are.
LOL,, Yes I am trying to get her to forget the 928 is in there. So she gets off me about selling her
Gretch, From what I have read, the issue shows no favorites. Yes it can happen to your tip. its Just a lot more 6speeders are on the road than tips. Thats why you see so many 6 speeders broken vs tips... Yes from what I have read the tip is a little more involved as is the c4
Determination my friend. You can actually get to it from the drivers side, I learned that tonight. I think there may actually be more room on that side.
I used a short socket and a 3/4 inch ratchet and scraped knuckles. moaning and groaning and then I tossed some "f" words at it and off it came!
Thanks I didn't think you couild get at it from that side because of the slave.....
now removing the slave cylinder, do you detach the hydraulic line and does it blow fluid out?
Kyle, I have had my C4 since new in Feb 2000. This is the FIRST thread on the 996 forum that I can recall of its type.
You may have singlehandedly begun the transition of his forum being for "drivers" to "owners".
There may actually be a reason to come check out this forum once and a while!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My C4 Tip got a complete tranny replacement 3 years ago last September, when the car had just a tad over 100,000 miles on it. The input shaft bearing was shot, and they "don't repair them they replace the whole unit". The tranny howled like a Singapore bar maid, shorted $10, fer "services".
Now, I wish I knew then about the IMSB, I would have had them do that too. I did replace a collapsed oil breather catch can. I do not recall the name of the damn thing, but I remember putting a thread up about it.
Great job!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS, is that really you and the wife?
As Ed, said no need to take the line off and deal with bleeding it later. HOWEVER. I suggest when putting the tranny back in, when you have the tranny not quite all the way up, put your slave on. I think you will have enough line room to do this. It took me over 2 hours to get that slave back on the car after I had teh tranny in place. If the trans would have been 6" lower it would have been a 5 min job.
not to take any credit away from Kyle and I sure mean no disrespect. Kutos to Kyle for an awesome job
BUT
lets not get carried away
Dharn55 rebuilt an entire motor in his agarage and did a great write up as well....lest ye forget the real singlehanded beginer of the "owners" and to to fair he was not the first...;et me think... OH Jake helped Dharn too.....
again, WTG Kyle, great job.....but sorry, the statement belongs elsewhere
Still and all, this kind of "jump in and actually turn a wrench on your expensive toy" Has been rare in the 996 world, and I am very happy to see it become a bit more commonplace.
We can finally relegate "princess" status to the 997 owners.
Hoorah.
I have been getting a lot of PM's about my home made RMS tool. You can see more about that here:
http://reutterwerk.com/forums/showth...741#post167741
Holy crap 8000 views... Hey IB and LNE where's my commission?
Kyle,
Your initiative and perseverence in tackling this by yourself is inspiring. Thanks for posting your experience and the entire process with the IMS bearing replacement on Rennlist. It is a great benefit to the community.
Kyle,
Are you single?
If not then I want to know your secret of how to keep wifey happy and still have all this wrench time?? I need to know! For next time of course..
And if you are...I got a room for rent and an open garage...do I hear 4 P-cars in the driveway and 24/7 parties?!!
You will not believe me if I told you.
The wife and I have had some tough times with exactly what you are talking about. So I came up with a little thing I do that has proven to help.
You ready?
I track her cycles in my MS outlook. When she is "ripe" I know I can get laid, and it is the best time to work on, buy parts for or even buy another P-car.
This has been a great post. This reminds me when I pulled my transmission out of my GT6 Triumph and rebuilt the transmission in my apartment. I am motivated to go in but the question is when. It would be great to have a step by step write up for the RMS, IMS replacement. Not positive but maybe seeing a drop of oil under my transmission bell housing. 2002 with 36k miles.
"After the seals are compromised the original lube that is in the bearing gets washed away. The bearing is not made to run with engine oil as the lube, Its too light. So when this happens this is the start of the end. So I feel my bearing may have gone another season or so. But I feel it was on its way out."
If this is true then if the oil leak is not a RMS but an IMS it just a matter of time for the IMS to go, any thoughts?
Chris
2002 C2 Cab
Their are websites for women that also track this:
http://ovulation-calendar.net/
this will get you started. When her fertility is the highest is when she will be most agreable and happy. Thats your time to make your move.
Kyle:
I see that you locked the TDC step 1 but what did you do for locking the cam step 2.
1. Put engine at TDC, and lock out the pulley so the engine cannot turn over.
2. Pull cam plugs and make note of position. It is recommended that the cams are locked out using
factory cam timing tool.
Chris
No need to do this. if you pull the tensioners and nothing goes wrong. if you pull that flang before pulling the tensioners, you're screwed.
So as long as you are locked at tdc and have the tensioners out, you should be ok. So Jake said. and it worked for me. He said that was just extra precaution. I DIDNT PULL THE CAM PLUGS.
Thats what I have been told. It Sounds logical and seems to make sense. Jake said my IMS could not have been leaking long becasue the oil in the IMS tube was not burnt black. My tube had a lot of oil in it.
I know I am going to get flamed for this and it is going to open a whole new can of worms... But after looking at all my engine parts. everything metal in the engine has a golden tint to it. I think someone at one point or another ran slick 50 in it. I am only going by what I have heard at shops. I have heard slick50 turns the engine metal a golden color. I see this all over every interal engine part of my car. Thus may be why my IMSB lasted as long as it did.
Did you upgrade the chain tensioner?
Porsche redesigned the chain tensioner for the crankshaft to intermediate shaft chain. The revised tensioner exerts less pre-load than the earlier style. We recommend updating to this revised design when doing an IMS retrofit kit if this tensioner has not already been installed on your engine.
No I forgot about this. I am, going to do it on the next oil change
I didnt lock the flywheel, I pinned the pully on the front of the engine with 4" peice of 5/16 steel rod. I cheated and used my impact to get teh bolts out of the FW.
OEM-99610518056
Genuine Porsche Part: AS CHAIN TENSIONER 1
This part may also fit in the following categories:
Boxster 987 (2005-Present) 1
996 (1999-2005) (01) 1
997 (2005-Present)
Kyle
I have ordered all parts and starting to remove transmission.
I read you only remove 2 chain tensioners. The LN Engineering Tech support read the following.
"IMS Retrofit Kit
4. Then remove the three (3) chain tensioners. If worn, replace."
Is this a type-o or do you only need to remove the two?
Thanks,
Chris
You only have to and can only (so i was told) remove 2. You can not get to (so i was told) the 4-6 bank tensioner. To confirm, I only removed the main and teh 1-3 tensioners. And thats not me playing cowboy, thats what Jake told me to do. You also do not have to remove the cam plugs or lock the cams.
Just as soon as you get THE FLANGE PLATE BACK ON, put the tenstioners back in.
let me say this AGAIN> if you take that flange plate off with the tensioners still in. YOU'RE FOOKED
yes you can tell by the rings as pictured. I simply sat the right one on the right and the left one on the left.
I didnt try to stick it in the wrong hole, so i am not sure if they can be swapped by mistake
Charles decided to stay here for a few days after we finished teaching our M96 Engine Rebuild Seminar. Charles and I have been shooting the IMSR procedure DVD for the past few days. We are working hard to touch on EVERY one of the major questions in this production and to explain the most common difficulties as the procedure is completed.
Editing will begin on Monday... The DVD will be included in the sale of each bearing and will be a must watch prior to and during the procedure.
SWEET!!
Charles and I have decided to start offering once monthly training for the IMS procedure. Primarily this will be for shops who want to know the details of the install to best serve their clients, but Enthusiasts can also attend..
What was once black art is now becoming a well known and understood procedure with some effort on our part coupled to great experiences being shared like Kyle's.
How do you keep your garage floor so clean?...
Added.
You're "one of them"
I see your exsteam atten to detail with the tie wrap and little covers over the axils.
I just dont have that trait in me.
I bought a $20 area rug at Taget to lay on. Sure was a lot better then the cold floor.
torx dont know the size and I used my air impact.
Putting them back in on your back is a bitch... You pull them down to a certian ft# then another 1/4 turn.. That last 1/4 turn is really hard trying to keep the torx in the bolt as you really crank on it. You will find out what I mean when you get there.
Your new bearing looks different than mine. Do you have yours packed with grease?
wow your RMS tool sure is a lot simpler than mine. Post the lengths you cut the inner pipe too.
Don't forget to change out AOS while your in there. Another $150 and you have full access now. It is made of the same plastic that is slowly becoming super brittle on our cars. Mine cracked at the heat exchanger portion.
A vendor needs to put together a series of "kits" for this job
that include:
IMS
RMS
AOS
mag drain plug
the little 2nd gear shifter thingy fix
Oil filter
Clutch kit-optional
new clutch arm-optional
New flywheel optional
Hi folks,
Im new to the forum having just purchased a 2000 C2 late last year. This is a great source for sharing information. After having read Kyle's posts I decided to also do the IMS bearing replacement. I wanted to share some information, and also wanted to ask a couple of questions.
First someone asked how the flywheel was locked to remove the clutch and flywheel. I couldn't find a flywheel lock for the 996 anywhere so I made my own from 1/2" aluminum bar stock as you can see from the picture. The teeth were milled but you can easily just use a file to cut them since they don't need to be very deep. The slots are .16" wide, spaced .13" apart
Also the clutch alignment tool that can be used to put the clutch back in place is a common 1" diameter x 23 splines. This is readily available at most parts stores since its used on many other vehicles. Its the same one used for my 944.
I'm at the stage where I've taken the chain tensioners out and the bolts on the IMS cover plate and the center nut. However the IMS cover is not coming out very easily. the center bolt and cover can be turned freely but the cover doesn't want to budge. I didn't want to pry on it very hard so I wanted to know how others removed it.
I'm also going to do the RMS seal and was looking at the procedure on c-speed racing website. They recommend replacing the case bolts (shown on
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/996rms/rms4.php
). I was wondering if anyone has done this and why do they need to be replaced.
Also I've noticed what looks like sandy powder in the upper right cavity of the transmission and engine castings. You can see what I mean in the following pictures. I don't see any leaks in that area or holes where dirt can get in. I've seen this in almost all the pictures posted from those that have pulled out the transmission. Does anyone know what this is, where is it coming from, is it anything to be concerned about?
Thanks,
Dan
Thanks for the info Dan. If you want I can swing down there and take a look at what you're doing. I haven't cracked the insides of the IMS yet but it would be nice to where you're at. I'm in Temecula.
As for the powder, it must have to do something with the heat exchanger above, collection water which leaves deposits behind inside, or a change in the metal due to differing temperatures.... <---my guess.
Sorry Shark Attack but no banana for you. With the engine at TDC for 1-3 and for TDC at 4-6 the pin in the flywheel is in the same position as the crank has to be rotated 360 degrees to get to TDC, and the hole in the pulley is the same for both. The method I know for determining which bank is at TDC is to remove the green cap on the intake cam on 1-3 and see which way the slot is oriented. Maybe Ivangene has another mothod.
thinking about the info I was given....
hold on, it hurts
so I was told when TDC1 is pinned the pin for the flywheel is pointed at ~4:00 on the clock...and ~10:00 when on TDC4... but you are right Dharn - that's stupid cause the pulley is bolted to the other end of the crank...
<continuing my search> DOH
TDC #1 and TDC #4 is the SAME CRANK POSITION! When the #1 cylinder is @ TDC, cylinder #4 is on TDC OVERLAP because the two cylinders are in opposition.
So when cylinder 1 is between the compression and power cycles, (known as true TDC) cylinder #4 is between the exhaust and intake cycles, (known as TDC overlap.)
THE IMS PROCEDURE CAN BE DONE AT EITHER OF THESE POSITIONS.. Because in both instances all camshafts are "off lobe".
Easy Jake - its clear the IMS proceedure can be done at TDC1 or TDC4
I was just looking for a way to know which you were on withouit pulling the cam covers and checking the ends
Hello, warning that my English is not good,
I will try that they understand to me. In the bearing of two rows of ***** that takes the inner locking device, as it is fixed the new bearing of kit?
The new bearing does not take locking device, reason why I see in the photos, equivocal me or now it takes a locking device with new system?
I want to update with kit IMS, but I look for all the possible information before, to solve all the possible doubts that it finds when this working in the motor
thanks for its aid
Hey Shark Attack, I'm replacing my throwout bearing right now, just took a break to come in here and agree with you about the clutch slave. What a pain in the *** that thing is, basically blind flinging a socket at the end of a swivel around in there hoping for good luck, and then you can get about 15 degrees rotation with the wrench each turn--makes it feel like the bolt is a million miles long.
I love doing the work myself but my knuckles are wishing I took it to the shop.
By the by, thanks for the tips for the bolts on that thing, I had a brain fart and forgot I had a swivel.
Putting it on is 100X worse. TRUST ME. TRY to put it on before you have the tranmission all the way way up. I THINK you have enough hydro line to do so....
I ALMOST started to cry after an hour thinking I was going to have to drop the tranny to get it back on. Then I just got REALLY pissed and got it to go.
The problem on the way in is that the pin in the slave wants to extend. So you use all your strength getting the pin back in, Then you just run out of steam before you get a bolt in, so you let go to take a break and the pin pushes back out and you are at ground 0 again. I had to have done that AT LEAST 15 times. (whats the difinition of crazy?)
My neck was sore, the shoulders were sore, My knuckles hurt, I had dropped some stuff in my eye. I smacked my elboe on the jack stand.... I was not fit to be around at that time and I am usually a pretty pleasent guy.
Hey Jose, Ill work with you. My spanish isnt any good either.. So we are even.
The new bearing is held in place like a single row of ***** bearing. The new clip that holds it in is visable.
Does this help?
I better start early tomorrow then. I got a late start today and only got to loosening up the transmission bolts. Didn't help I started off on ramps and had to switch to jack stands when I realized I wasn't going to have enough room to work with the trans. jack under there.
I've replaced a clutch slave before and had forgotten what a bitch it was to get it in place while getting the bolts in.
PS - There's a good bit of line, should have no problem getting it in place with the trans. halfway up.
ok.
then the new bearing must enter a little more the tube of the intermediate gearbox, to put the locking device in the original furrow?
or the new locking device simply is put in the tube without furrow?
since I have still not disassembled not exactly as it can be mounted the new one.
thanks again
Dont forget to brace the engine!!!!!!
I am not sure if the new one goes in further or if the new bearing is not quite as wide. I didnt measure the LNE bearing before I installed it.
Hahaha, don't worry. I'm cheesing it with a 2x4 and a floor jack as a backup.
For busting out the tip-top transmission bolt, did you need a swivel+extension? I didn't have time to try that one out last night, though in hindsight I should have done it first.
No extention, and a short socket 1/2 ratchet. my 3/8 just didnt give me the leverage.
You may be able to get to it better from the drivers side with the clutch slave removed. I didnt notice this until I had my bolt back in and was wresteling with the slave. Give it a try and report back of what you found better.
what would you guyes think about replacing the top slave bolt with a stud... then just put a nut on it ?
I meant the factory does these with all the access in the world, but once in the car its a PITA - would a stud be better?
Just a thought for the future
Hello, Joaquin.
Thanks to you and soloporsche there am shortage this magnificent forum.
Now the questions that did to you I do them directly this way!
a question� with himself not to find the site of sale of kit IMS of rennlist, me you can facilitate the connection?
thanks to all
Hola, Joaquin.
Gracias a t� y soloporsche he descubierto este magn�fico foro.
Ahora puedo hacerlas preguntas que te hac�a a t� directamente por aqu y no darte el co�azo!
una pregunta... no consigo encontrar el sitio de venta del kit IMS de rennlist, me pod�is facilitar el enlace?
gracias a todos
Replace the Oil cooler O-Rings
999-707-389-40-M100 O-Ring for Oil Cooler, 35 X 4, 996 Carrera 2/4 (1999-04), You need TWO.
999-707-409-40-M17 O-Ring for Oil Cooler, 26 X 3, 996 Carrera 2/4 (1999-04), 996 Turbo (2001-05), You need TWO.
The oil cooler is the silver box on the top left of engine. Clamp off the coolant line coming out of the oil cooler before removing. This procedure is messy, oil and coolant leaking all over.
You have to contact to Jake Raby to purchase the IMS retrofit Kit by email due to an inventory update of the online shop. Flat 6 Innovations and the other firm (LN Engineering) are apart from this forum
[email removed]
Here is the site... (Flat 6 Innovations)
http://www.flat6innovations.com/
And the online store (closed)
http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop/home.php
Best regards
Joaquin
FYI the clutch slave goes in fine with the transmission a good bit out and down, thanks for that bit of advice.
Ran out of time again last night, just need to get the driveshafts bolted in though and then I'm done.
Oh, and I really hate whoever decided to put the top transmission bolt where it is. If my arms were shorter I could not have done the job, as I could just barely get my finger-tips to the bolt. You asked before: you can't get to it from the driver's side.
That was a big PITA. I ended up using a 1/2 rachet plus another ratched with a sock on the end that went over the other ratched that was attached to the transmission bolt, I was able to break the bolt loose then just use the smaller ratchet to get it out. I'm guessing someone in Manufacturing pissed someone off in Engineering at Porsche when they designed that transmission bolt pattern.
yes I have a long reach and I found it easier to lay on my creeper for the extra 3" of arm stretch to get to the bolt also.... Funny how we both felt that
Engine is able to be dropped 25mm to gain access to the top bolt from the driver side, but still tricky to get on.
I received my clutch kit from Suncoast yesterday, $500 OEM.
I have the transmission installed and all bolts torque. Need to put the plastic covers on and check fluid levels.
Do you think that Goo Gone spray would work under the engine and suspension parts as well? Did you use a brush? I can't get over how clean your tranny is!
Ny concern would be getting it on hoses, seals, wires and alike. Not saying its bad, I would just like to know BEFORE hosing everything down with it.
Gotta admit, looks great!
Sure, sure. But think of all the moral support they will provide!
In all seriousness, good luck moving forward on the project. Will you start a new thread, or, is this now the official IMS bearing change thread????
Should someone make this a sticky?
LNEng IMS upgrade, GO FOR IT ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Back on the road, everything went great, no leftover parts, every bolt torque to spec. Thanks to this forum started by Kyle, my Porsche Boxster Service Manual and 996 Workshop Manual I can say the upgrade was a total success.
Some of the torque settings differed between manuals (flywheel +120 deg for Boxster vs. +90deg for 996).
Goo Gone works great on engine too, I see no problem getting it on the rubber hose, and it should clean them off too. I sprayed it on the oil pan and waited an hour and wiped off with a paper towel.
From pis I have seen the double row has more parts than the single, could that be the difference, look on LNE webite and compare the two in the picture
The kit comes out of the box with one black o-ring under the black 12-point nut that screws onto the center shaft. Instructions make no note of using the o-ring (but then again, they don't say to use the c-clip either) - if the o-ring is used under the black 12-point nut it will get squished (I believe Ed said the same thing) so it's not even under the nut any longer.
I thought the instruction made note to the o-ring and said it was extra. I hope thats the case, because mine was left out. BUT if you look down in your bearing at the bearing support, it has an o-ring on it.
When I took mine apart, I dont remember an o-ring.
From the rather elementary instructions:
12. Remove nut and
spare o-ring from new bearing support
(already pressed into new bearing in
center race) and slide the aluminum bearing driver/installation tool over the stud, counter-bored side
facing outside of engine. Drop in 12 point nut and snug
THIS IS NOT A JOB WHERE YOU SHOULDNT BE PAYING ATTENTION
.
I'M NTO TRYING TO BE AN ***.
BUT YOU CAN DO SOME REAL DAMAGE HERE
So is any oil in the IMS tube a sign that the bearing's risk of failure increases? Do you know if it should it be dry inside of the IMS tube if things were working as they should (bearing seal)?
I would not have asked if these "elementary" instructions did things like forget steps, or indicate other un-neccesary steps (locking cams, removing all 3 tensioners).
Fact:
-if the seal on the original bearing is still good, no oil should be in the IMS
-the orig ims bearing is not made to be lubed with engine oil
This is my own opinion:
-oil gets into the tube and cooks. this cooked oil is what ruins the bearing. I think the bearing is fine being lubed with GOOD engine oil. But the burnt oil doesnt provide very good lube, it get gritty.... And over time ruins the bearing. The new bearing only has the seal on the IMS side of the bearing, allowing good engine oil to splash up into the bearing but not go through the bearing to allow oil to cook in the tube.
Note I know nothing about bearings or oil this is just my opinion.
you did put the snap ring on, correct? I pulled the support shaft nut down to 17# and put some lock tite on it. (as jake sugggested)
You got the tensioners back in?
May want to do that 2nd gear pop out upgrade and change the gear oil in the tranny.
I would have also refreshed my AOS too, if I would have known
The O ring is extra.
The IMS tube should be free from oil, the more oil thats in the tube the more compromised the outer seal of the original bearing has become.
Did you guys who have no lift, use the bolts to draw the tranny into the engine? I'm an early 911 guy and always dropped the engine with the tranny - re-attaching the tranny was tough! I ended up having to use the bolts to draw it into the engine since I couldn't just slide it back in - it wouldn't go that last half an inch. Were you guys able to just slide it into position flush with the engine? The IMS bearing upgrade was the easy part.
No, Its doesnt "click in" like a chebby. We all seemed to have this issue. No I didnt use a lift. I didnt even jack the whole car. Just the *** end.
Yes, it is a very physical job from start to finish, especially on your back.
OK... I figured it might click in, after about 2-3 hours of trying various angles, I finally resorted to slowly tightening the bolts which brought it together easily and things still rotated with no issues.
My wife thought I got sunburned on my back - just abraded from laying down there for so long and wresting that thing!
With 964 engines, and 901 engines, they pop right together once the correct angle is obtained! Not my 996!
OK, LMAO on this particular pic of the engine support. I would do the same thing... but with a little insurance in the form of another floor jack or second "stick of wood"! HAH!
Here's the official TOOL BTW, you tool!
**** those money grubbing tool WHO - OARS!
http://www.etoolcart.com/enginesupportbarforthe996.aspx
Which is actually inferior to your gold plated design.
Condiering an IMS on a 99' C2 w/70k miles...
I'm diving in for this repair as well and you can follow it below (hopefully kosher to cross post to another forum). Thanks Shark for the excellent write up!
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...0&#entry177376
Did you pull your a/c compressor/etc. and remove the tensioner on top of the block? It looks like according to your post you didn't do this, and only removed the two easily accessible tensioners on the bottom for 1-3 and main tensioner side near oil filter, and you were still successful... despite not pulling your caps to verify timing.
I'm doing an ims replacement and didn't pull #3 on top of the block behind the A/C Compressor before pulling the ims hub cover/flange and could use a second opinon or verifiction of what you actually did.
Thanks in advance!
Just had to post that this is an awesome write up. I am looking for a 996 but almost passed on the idea do to the IMS issue. Now that I see what can be done, I'm moving ahead with my search. Thanks Kyle!
wow what a thread! thank you.
one question came up as I played with just arrived LN bearing and tools.
The thread on new center stud doesnt fit LN tool kit. So once I install new bearing I am completely screwed with no way to replace it? Hm.. unless I am getting it wrong I ll soon be selling my new LN tools (only used once).
You can extract the LN Bearing with their kit. Tap the center stud gently into the IMS, insert the easy out nut and wire, screw the extraction tool threaded shaft (minus the hex adapter) into the nut, and extract as you would the OEM bearing.
