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YOUR RESEARCHOil labeling / certification ; porsche approved
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Use m1
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Suggestion
Castrol 5W-40 shears within 5,000 Mi, there are posts on Pelican Forum recommending Castrol 10W-40 that is more shear resistant, but not A40 approved.
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Suggestion · Original poster
What i'm looking for is, what "approvals" and "certifications" does Porsche recommend for motor oils in their cars?
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First, don't comment unless it's going to be constructive. We don't need a thread with 50 comments that are utterly useless. Because someone will search for the info, and not understand what's what after reading thru all the comments.
Then when they ask, people will respond with "search for it!"
Actually, I wondering if a subject about this should be stickied!
I know most people here are M1 fans and will simply answer with "M1 is good enough for Porsche, so it's good enough for me...."
What i'm looking for is, what "approvals" and "certifications" does Porsche recommend for motor oils in their cars?
Is it API S or ILSAC GF? Or perhaps if it has "A40" then I'm good to go?
I've seen this list as well:
http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_3/P...oved_Oils.html
Thanks!
Yoda, no please, no!
Just kidding.
Others will freak out but please do yourself a favor and read JR's
http://www.flat6innovations.com/
info on oil. He has done all the research and work for you.
Disclaimer: This is in everyway an endorsement for JG DT40 the best oil on the planet for the M96 engine.
This is Porsche's certification and thumbs up on non-diesel oils.
Edit: On a related note the newest c30 Porsche(aka VW 504/507) specification is suppose to be one of the most stringent OEM specification for wear and deposits FWIW. Outside of that, if you feel the need to use double condoms, you'll need to go to a Boutique brand route like the one that KK endorses while wearing 3 condoms for that added protection.
Alpine,
Is c30 a certification as well? Just did a quick google search on "c30 certification" and can't find much (all pertaining to the volvo c30).
Thanks
AFAIK Porsche doesn't disclose on what basis is adds an oil to its approved oil list.
Non-synthetic oils are not approved.
No 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-XX or 15w-XX oils are approved.
No "diesel" oils are approved, not even for its diesel powered vehicles, for which by the way Porsche has another approved tag: A30.
A40 is for sports circa 1985 or somewhere in that time frame.
There must be something for not all say 5w-40 oils from an oil maker are on the list and one 5w-50 oil that was on the list is no longer on the list.
renntech.org if you belong generally has an up to date approved oils list available.
You can get a copy of the approved oils list from your local Porsche dealer service department if you ask nice.
Or you can just look for "A40" on the oil container.
C30 is a rating from Porsche as well but the original intention was primarily for their VW derived drivetrains(aka Cayenne) hence the reason the c30 rating is basically the same as VW 504/507 rating.
The only Mobil Synthetic with that rating in the US is 5w-30 based on their product list.
There have been guys that have used this on other non diesel cars but have noticed the TBN levels deteriorated after 5k so not really good for extended OCI's.
Amsoil does make synthetic that has the c30 rating as well.
Have you read this? It sounds like group V oils would be better for our Porsche cars. Porsche has some of these oils on the approved list on Pedro's site.
http://www.waynesgarage.com/docs/oil_facts.htm
...
Not all synthetic oils are equal. Some give better protection and last longer than others, depending on whether they're formulated with Ester or PolyAlphaOlefin (PAO) stock. Synthetic oils made from the ester class are much more expensive, but are more durable and hold up under hotter temperatures.
Synthetic oils have different base stocks, which comprise some 90% of the oil. The base stock is the actual lubricant The other 10% or so is the additive package. The relative ability of oils to lubricate is determined by the components of the base stock. There are two principal classes of base stocks used in real synthetic oils: synthesized hydrocarbons (PAOs) and organic esters.
PAOs
The base stock materials used today many popular synthetic oils are made of carbon and hydrogen molecules. These
are synthesized from ethylene gas molecules into PolyAlphaOleflns (PAO). Almost all the synthetic oils sold in the stores are made with PAO base stocks. PAOs provide better viscosity characteristics, are more resistant to oxidation and have much better low operating properties than petroleum oils. PAOs are cheaper synthetic oil base stocks, and aren't as durable as the ester class of synthetic oils. Some of the popular brands of PAO oils include Amsoil and Mobil-1.
These are known as a Group IV oil.
ESTERS (Polyolesters)
Organic esters are made by reacting certain acids with alcohols, forming acid esters. There are alcohol diesters and
Polyol esters. This process uses expensive materials and results in lubricants that cost many times more than PAOs.
Only esters are durable enough to withstand the rigors of jet engine operation and they are used in racing and high performance cars. These oils can cost $8 dollars or more a quart. Redline is an example of an ester synthetic oil.
These are known as a Group V oil.
Hydrocracked (sometimes called Hydrowax)
These are petroleum oils that have been hydroisomerized, as it is commonly called. The most stringent level of petroleum oil refining. Much of the paraffin and impurities have been removed and its performance on any number of industry tests is substantially better than it's group two cousins (the regular oil petroleum oil used in automobiles).
Although it is not made from a synthesized, engineered molecule and as such is not a true synthetic oil, it does offer a portion of the benefits you would expect from a true synthetic and in fact is usually sold and marketed as a 100% synthetic product. Hydrowaxes are very cheap to produce, even cheaper than olefins, making them the cheapest of all the synthetics. As they are formulated from crude oil base stocks they aren't a true synthetic. These are known as a Group III oil. Castrol Syntec is known for using this method.
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Quality
Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.
This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap.
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Differences in same Brands.
Even the same brand of synthetic oil can have different qualities. Mobil 1 has several different qualities available in the same weights. You can buy 5W/20, 5W/30, 10W/30, 15W/50 Mobil 1 in the "Extended Performance" line as well as in the "normal" line of synthetics for less than a $1 more a quart.
So what is the difference? Here's what the Mobil 1 website has to say about that:
"Mobil 1 Extended Performance formulas are designed specifically for today's longer service intervals and are guaranteed to protect for up to 15,000 miles or one year.
Mobil 1 Extended Performance has a unique formulation with a boosted level of protection and performance. Mobil 1 Extended Performance, with the Advanced SuperSyn* System, contains 50 percent more SuperSyn than Mobil 1"
This might indicate that the extended performance synthetic oil has about 50% more synthetic base stock than their regular "fully" synthetic oil. This would probably be a much better buy for the slightly increased cost.
*Mobil's definition of SuperSyn: "Mobil SuperSyn PAOs were developed to extend the range of conventional high viscosity PAOs and maintain excellent low temperature fluidity. Mobil SuperSyn PAOs are a class of high viscosity, high Viscosity Index (VI) polyalphaolefins manufactured by Mobil Chemical using patented, proprietary technology."
I ran this oil in my M3 as well. Great oil!
One thing I have learned about it since however is that they make two types. For europe, it's full syn. In the US you can get either a syn-blend or a full syn. So it's kind of a crap shoot. It has to do with the way the container is labeled.
I was going to run this in my 996, but not sure I could consistently procure the european syn. Another option I'm contemplating now is Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 (a40 spec'd). It's a euro formula as well.
Traitor... then you'll be going over into the Ferrari camp.
That's ok, I have Akebono pads because they are used and endorsed by McLaren for their P1 model.
On a more serious note: I recently switched to Castrol 5w-40 and plan on doing an Oil Analysis to compare with my old Analysis on the M1 0w_40.
I wish I was going over to the Ferrari camp too!
I'm looking for an oil that doesn't sheer as easily. Ideally, the M1 5w-50, but I've only seen mentions of it online. I've never seen that oil anywhere!
So I'm trying to find a quality 5w-40. (If I don't like it in the 996, I can always use it on the Audi.)
Hi Guys,
Liqui Moly 4100 Top Tech is Group III+ oil. Synthetic technology.
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...oiladb=web.nsf
You are better off with LM Synthoil High Tech 5W-40:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...oiladb=web.nsf
My buddy uses it in his 996 with good results. No UOA done though.
Another relatively main stream in Motul X-Cess 5W-40 that always produces excellent UOA's in Porsche engines. I had excellent UOA from my 997 last summer.
M1 5W-50 will shear to 40 grade. Many had good results with this oil. It is available, speak to your Mobil distributor. I can get it off the shelf easily where I live.
I used Penn Ultra 5W-40 in my WRX and it produced excellent results. Absolutely stellar UOA over ~5,000 Mi.
Castrol 5W-40 shears within 5,000 Mi, there are posts on Pelican Forum recommending Castrol 10W-40 that is more shear resistant, but not A40 approved. It is not available in Canada.
Here is Porsche A40 testing procedure:
This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the �N�rburgring� racetrack,
- 3.5 hours of �running-in� program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.
Cheers,
=L=
^^^^ interesting info. I'll have to try Pen Ultra next followed by Motul X-Cess just to satisfy my own curiosity.
But in reality, I think at this level, you're really just splitting hairs. If this is your daily driver and put on more than 12k per year, I might be prone to being more picky about my oil. But for a second car that maybe sees half that, I'm won't be losing sleep over it.
My car has 120k on M1 just fine with no oil usage. I just got bored and want to experiment with other stuff more for curiosity reasons and less reliability. I plan on doing UOA on each one.
I haven't formally done a compression and leakdown test though but I do plan on hitting the dyno's soon to get some baseline numbers.
I would love to see P Ultra UOA from 996/7 yet. Anybody ???
Motul X-Cess is the
ONLY
oil that all camps agree on in cluding A40, builders, LN, forums, dumbarses, M1 lovers and haters, etc. Search for my username in this forum, you will find my UOA comapred to M1 TDT.
Such a polarizing subject.....
LOL, Indeed!
Thanks I'll look it up. Thankfully there are no less than a dozen performance shops around my area that regularly stock Motul. I'll need to check to see if they stock the X-Cess line.
Keep in mind that X-Clean is also A40 approved and it is mid SAPS.
I would not use it in NA due to lesser quality of gasolines on this continent. (higher Sulphur content 10 ppm in Europe, up to 80 ppm NA, best I collected to date).
Yeah, hate those oil threads. Such pissing matches time after time again....
About to get some PU 5w-40! But I won't be needing an oil change for awhile. So it'll be a wait/see approach. Heck at my current rate, it will take a year to put the PU in, then another year to pull it to run some labs on it!
The 5w-50 sheering down to 40w is fine. I figure you start up higher (within reason) and sheer down. If I start with 40w and sheer down to 30w, then that's not good.
Alpine, actually I believe the opposite of what your saying in regards to putting 12k+ miles on it a year vs. being a 2nd car. If I put a lot of miles on a year, I would worry less because it would be more drive like mom/dad driving. But since it's a 2nd car, when I get into it, I like to open it up when I have a chance and it's safe. Plus I want to do HPDEs with this car as well.
Also, this has been a very civilized discussion on oil. (hope I didn't jinx it!) Thanks!
My most recent UOA on M1. In actuality, the mileage was probably closer to 4k OCI.
BTW Luxter, noticed your Molybdenum levels were really low. Is that due to the increased ZDDP level so not really requiring Molybdenum?
I think valvoline synpower 5w40 is also a40 approved. For daily driver any of at a40 oils are good. I wouldn't switch to something other than those just to save a few $$. If you are tracking the car might want to look at a pao oil with more zdpd and heavier weight .. Lots of ideas about that on the boards here. But need to change more frequently then. Best advice here is to change at least once a year and at 1/2 factory drain interval .. The cost of a little overkill in that department is small compared to cost of new engine. Also change trans fluid at 60k / 10 yrs max ....
