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YOUR RESEARCH*UPDATE: NOT IMS FAILURE!! ** Imminent IMS Failure? HELP! (With Video)
Reported or suspected cause
clutch not the ims
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Read evidence and context
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Reported cause
Read back on the thread, it was the clutch not the ims.
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Suggestion
The LN retrofit was not done and Im curious to know if, per Standard Operating Procedure, they also checked the IMS bearing and deemed the condition to be acceptable.
Leading evidence: 'clutch not the ims' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'clutch not the ims' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check ims bearing and deemed the condition' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Upon dropping the transmission, he inspected the IMS flange as attached.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The prior owner JUST had the RMS and IMS seals replaced and a brand new clutch installed without doing the bearing!
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
- Front Crankshaft Seal Replaced - (The seal was found pushed in and leaking.
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Check ims bearing and deemed the condition
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Suggestion
The LN retrofit was not done and Im curious to know if, per Standard Operating Procedure, they also checked the IMS bearing and deemed the condition to be acceptable.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I still don't know exactly what the rattling was from (as I asked Rich to under no circumstances to start the car until the IMS has been replaced), but it is gone.
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Hi Everyone,
Drove my car last night about 10 miles, drove it both softly and hard. At around 6:00pm today I went to start it up and after about 15 seconds, I hear a rattling from the engine. The first thing I thought of was to snap a quick video and to turn it off. Please check it out and let me know your thoughts!
Video was taken at the rear left side.
Hoping for the best,
Alan
You Tube
I cannot hear it well, but it doesn't sound normal. If it sounds like a loose nut moving around, then it is most likely the IMS bearing. Mine blew at 23,000 miles. It first made the loose nut noise in the crankcase and when I shut it down, it leaked a few quarts of oil. It was the IMS in my case.
When one of my stock mufflers died it sounded like a crushed beer can rattling around in there. Your deal doesn't really sound like that but fyi. hoping for the best.
I would first remove the mufflers and shake them.....the mufllers are known to break internally and make a rattling sound......do this before you start the car again.....
Hopefully that quick action prob saved your motor, and pretty lucky you were in your garage. When you made the purchase a month ago did you do a PPI ?
An '02 with 52K on the clock seems like it was driven well for a cab in your area, did the previous owner store during winter ? I see that you're on the list for the IMS Guardian, and drove your car knowing the worst thing for the IMS is to sit and veg in the garage.....well your situation awareness and luck may take some of the sting out. Best Wishes.
He emailed me this last night.. It DOES sound like the death rattle.. Hopefully running it long enough for the sound bite didn't do too much collateral damage.. SECONDS is all that separate catastrophe from salvation.
DO NOT START THIS ENGINE AGAIN FOR ANY REASON until it is expertly diagnosed!!
Thanks everyone for the input. I have not restarted the engine since that video, and am hoping for the best. So far there is no oil spill under my car, no oil leak at all, so it looks like I may be in the clear for a just an IMS repair.
Anyone have any recommendations for LNE bearing retrofit in either the NYC, NY area or Monmouth, NJ area?
Well it goes something like this..... the OP purchased the car a little over a month ago....at the height of the IMS plague with the future promise of an antibiotic soon to be released by the Lab. At this point you must engage your imagination and use the term PPI generically and expand it to include any sights, smells, sounds of any organic material emitting from the RMS/IMS area. coupled with a oil change and necropsy of the oil filter. Granted, still a shot in the dark but better than the fingers in the crossed position.
That is the same noise I experienced when my IMS failed. The only difference is that once I shut the motor down, oil started to spill onto the garage floor.
As others have suggested, if you haven't already, pull the oil filter and inspect for metal. You will only lose a small amount of oil that was in and around the filter.
I would think there should be some debris (black plastic/metal etc) in the filter if you are having this type of internal engine issue.
I'd just like to update everyone on this thread.
It WAS NOT THE IMS BEARING!!!!!!! (Thank G-d)
I had spoken with Jake Raby on the phone and he and I both agreed that this is definitely the "death rattle". Thankfully it was not.
I had my 996 flatbedded to ROCS Auto in Belleville for perform the IMS retrofit (or resuscitation for my engine).
I did not have the knowledge or the tools to pull the oil filter myself, and since it was almost dead obvious that this was the IMS death rattle, I did not want to any chances starting the car again. I had Rich perform the IMS retrofit anyways to prevent any further scare.
He pulled the oil filter and there was ZERO bits of metal. Nothing. Zero.
Upon dropping the transmission, he inspected the IMS flange as attached.
He noticed some light leaking, but the bearing has not yet broken. He noted that the seal has broken and oil had begun seeping through, and obviously, it was only a matter of time before catastrophic failure. I brought the car in at the perfect time!
I still don't know exactly what the rattling was from (as I asked Rich to under no circumstances to start the car until the IMS has been replaced), but it is gone. For anyone who might be interested, the following work was done. I also highlighted it in another thread regarding some noises my car was making.
This information may be helpful to some in the event that someone may need to do the same:
- LNE IMS Retrofit Performed
- All 6 Coil Packs and Spark Plugs Replaced
- AOS Replaced
- Front Crankshaft Seal Replaced - (The seal was found pushed in and leaking. Rich noticed that this was due to a piece of an old fan belt being lodged behind the crankshaft pulley putting pressure on this seal)
- The Clutch Release Arm, Clutch Slave Cylinder, Other Various Bolts etc. were replaced. Also replaced the old clutch kit with a new Sachs Clutch Kit.
- Rear Main Seal (997 Update)
- 4-6 Timing Chain Tensioner
- Oil Change
Hope the info above helps someone out.
Thanks again.
Alan
Sweet Moses! That must have been a hell of a bill. Glad everything worked our for you. Why didn't he replace the 1-3 chain tensioner? Not that you have to but seems to make sense. You can replace it later without taking the trans down but I would have for good measure.
How does the car drive now? I bet it's all
The reason why we didn't replace the 1-3 tens is because it looked recently replaced, not even the typical bit of wear as is usually typical with a 50k mile car.
4-6 on the other hand had wear and was replaced.
Best
Rich
Andy,here is a pic.
The advantage of the IMS retrofit is largely preventive maintenance.
When Alan first sent me the video, I too agreed, just like Jake, that is sounded like the death rattle. Once it arrived and we inspected it we knew it wasn't. Alan wisely chose to do the IMS as preventive maintenance.
As for the source of his noise(s), bent clutch fork which in turn beat up the pressure plate/bearing.
Rich
The consensus of the board seems to be that the real cost of the IMS bearing replacement is the labor which is why, if you're in there doing your clutch, everyone suggests doing the bearing. This is why I think it probably works both ways. If you're going to spend the time/labor getting in there and tearing it apart, you might as well replace all of the normal wear and tear parts before putting it back together and just get a new clutch (assuming the one there isn't brand new).
This is the exact dilemma(?) I'm having with my car (which, btw, isn't even in my garage yet! lol). The prior owner JUST had the RMS and IMS seals replaced and a brand new clutch installed without doing the bearing! So, if I had to open her up it would be to tackle one job: the IMS bearing replacement.
-Eric
If someone replaced the IMS seals only, does that mean whoever did it looked at the bearing and determined it was fine? If the bearing isn't being killed by seaping oil (thanks to the new seals), does that mean all should be well for some time?
Andy
There are no seals on the ims that are replaceable, it is a one piece unit, meaning you replace the IMS bearing assy which is manufactured with seals in it, what happens is that the factory seals get compromised and oil leaks past the ball bearings and into the IMS tube. Go on to LN engineering or Flat Six and you can read all about it.
Interesting. The note I received from the service guy at Rector Porsche was that the "rear main and i shaft seals" were replaced when the clutch was done. Does that make sense? I don't have the service log book yet so I don't have any more details. Do you know what he meant?
-Eric
Let's see if my understanding is anywhere near correct. The dealer replaces the IMS seal and flange (had mine done because they said the seal was weeping and damp but no oil actually leaking) but this is NOT the bearing seal. Yet, the bearing seal would most likely be compromised if the IMS flange seal was wet? Or is the IMS flange seal sealing the engine from oil other than what would be passing through the IMS bearing?
I probably have this totally screwed up so anyone with the knowledge who is kind enought to respond to set things straight would be appreciated.
I am trying to understand whether or not the need to replace the IMS flange seal is an indicator that the IMS bearing itself is on its way to imminent failure.
Thanks in advance
What a bad factory design, not letting oil splash lubricate the inferior bearings to prevent failure!
Reminds me of the 16v 944 motors with the well designed cam chain tensioners that started with a plastic guide surface for the chains to pass over. Add heat, and miles, and the plastic become brittle, and had the potential to break. What's under the plastic guide piece? Sharp metal edges, of course! Chain catches on that, and BAM!
Congratulations on your good fortune. I had my IMS, RMS, and AOS replaced when I had my transmission rebuilt. The cost was about the cost of a steak dinner...in Fiji after a 2 week all expense vacation!
Absolutely not.
BTW- I told the OP on the phone that this could be water pump bearings failing as well.. Thats why I suggested a sump inspection prior to making a decision to tear into the engine for an IMS procedure.
Glad to see this one wasn't worst case scenario. Also glad to see that the OP took this seriously and had the work carried out as well. Not taking noises seriously leads to a bad day.
There is no good noise that comes from an engine. Take every noise as a worst case scenario..
Thank you! If one were to schedule IMSB replacement, flywheel, clutch pack and AOS replacement what is your approximate lead time for scheduling and approximate turn around time? Is there anything else you would recommend at the same time? Car is an 04 C2 and has 67K miles on it. Lifters for 4 through 6 were replaced at 46k under CPO and in accordance with the specs for same through Porsche warranty. I am in NE pa so I am assuming I am within driving range of your shop.
OP glad it wasn't anything worse....
not to go OT too much but since ROCS is here....I've got a similar question....what's the lead time and turn around time for a complete engine rebuild keeping 3.4 or going bigger....99 C2...nothing wrong with it...just approaching higher miles
Jake,
Alan and I had in essence the same conversation you had, we discussed all potential bearing noises and their similarities. In the video it certainly sounded like the death rattle, your direction was appropriate and professional.
In his case the clutch fork was severely bent and was rubbing on the pressure plate. Alan had already decided to undertake the retrofit regardless of it needing it or not. I make sure all our customers know about the potential issue as I don't want fingers pointed in my direction for failing to properly advise them.
Rich
Rich,
Glad to see you were able to properly diagnose this and didn't just start throwing parts at the problem.
Our days of advising folks about what they should do are over... Time to finish writing the book on it. Otherwise they can ship their car to us :-)
Rich - thanks for spending the time in an attempt to educate. I hope you can understand that the IMS has been bantered about so often that a basic owner/driver like myself gets confused. I am no longer a DIY'er (although I did replace the alternator on my Ford Ranger this afternoon and once upon a time, back in the days of carburation, disc brakes were expected, and computers a distint thought, I spent my time turning wrenches and balancing and blue printing engines for a local shop. But that was many decades ago and these days I want to understand theory but I only trust the trained professionals to touch my cars (the junk trucks I can still handle).
Thanks again - I will be in touch after I retrieve my service records so we will know exactly what was done and when.
The car is on the rack for 2 days for the procedure, depending on the "while you're in there list" it will dictate how many days we'd actually need it for. We've never had one take longer than a week with add-ons.
Hmmmn, I was thinking of the same thing. According to the maintenance records of the car I purchased (01 C2) a few days ago, Porsche determined that the RMS and IMS seals were leaking in 2007. They replaced the two seals as well as the bolts that go on the IMS flange at that time. The LN retrofit was not done and Im curious to know if, per Standard Operating Procedure, they also checked the IMS bearing and deemed the condition to be acceptable.
No tech in his right mind would let a bad IMS bearing slide by...dealer or independent so if they replaced the flange/seal and left the bearing alone is because they deemed the bearing to be solid....However, you can't really tell if the IMS bearing seals (the ones on both sides of the actual bearing) have been compromised and allowing just enough oil into the IMS shaft tube by just removing the flange with the flange seal, only real way to tell is by pulling the bearing out. You see the flange seal will allow oil to seep out of the case whereas compromised IMS seals will allow oil past the ball bearings and into the IMS tube. (see pic on page 3 of this thread).
Best
Rich
OP: Congrats on your positive outcome !
Although I can can say from the second I heard the rattle in your video, I knew you would be ok.
May I ask, did your clutch job include replacing the flywheel?
Cheers
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