996 "Found in a Barn" value?

Not exactly a barn, but a nice 3-car garage in the suburbs! I am not in the market for a Porsche, but took a look at this one because it was around the corner from my house. The good: 2003 996 C2 with 17,589 miles (documented) Black/Black Immaculate outside, like new inside PSM Tiptronic (maybe not good choice) Litronics (standard?) The bad: Absolutely no record, bought at auction Tiptronic Lightly optioned The Ugly: Salvage title from collision expert repaired I know that you should not by a 996 with no records? But at what price point do you bend those rules. Pending a full PPI, and body shop PPI Asking price $18.5 I am looking at offering $16.5 What should the shop look at in detail? I know about the standard issues. Thanks

$16.5 with a salvage title? Swap the numbers around for my tastes........

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OK, would that be $15.6? or $61.5 or 56.1? Just trying to swap the numbers around!

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I think he wants you to move the decimal point. It's hard to see how a salvage car gets above $15K; I think most buyers would walk away from it at any price, but at a certain point, it's worth a flyer.

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So it's worth $1650.00 I might show the owner this thread and try to negotiate to $1650

Some warning signs, since a salvage title doesn't seem to bother you. won't start so you can't bring it out into the light. and it's not registered so you can't drive it. It only comes with one key. tires are more than 5 yrs old there are oil leaks!

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It's a tough car to price. In pristine condition, it's probably worth ~$30K (maybe as high as $35K) given that it's a later model (2003) and has low miles. It has two major dings: the accident history (significant enough to earn a salvage title), and dubious provenance - straight from the auction house with no records. These two should be enough to scare off most buyers. The category of people who should be interested here are track enthusiasts who want a beater, BUT it's a tip, which knocks them out of the running. Without detailed knowledge of how the car got its salvage title, it's hard to do anything but imagine a worst case scenario, which is probably a flooded out car. In that scenario, even the opportunity as a parts car is pretty limited. I think it's probably worth $10K-$15K, but some sucker might spend $18-$20K on it.

I wouldn't touch it, and here is why a conversation regarding safety this weekend where the car in question had an "off track" excursion. The man told the shop he wanted it guaranteed safe at 150+ MPH like it came out of the Porsche shop....the totaled the car and wrote him a check...when you think about it - it is clear, the car is not safe at speed after being totaled and welded together, glossed over and passed off as OK.... so I would not touch it why would you risk driving around in an unsafe car to save $2k ???? or even $20!

I would say that if you did your due diligence on this car and had a Porsche knowledgeable body man and mechanic PPI the car in question and gave you satisfactory answers, why wouldn't you make an offer based on what you find?

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What did I miss in the OP description?? If the PPIs check out offer $15k. Or pass and buy a new car for your $15k. Like this nice one: 2011 Chevrolet Aveo Base MSRP: $11,965 - $15,365 Invoice: $11,486 - $14,750 Consumer Guide Rating: 55/110 I know which one I would buy.

Some very valid, informative points against this 996. The car does start and runs really strong. It drive well too. There would be a mechanic PPI and body shop PPI involved with the sale. Again the exact same low mileage car would be $32-35K with good title and all records. Wouldn't a 50% discount penalty on the price be a good starting point. AND how much book/repair paperwork would a car with 17k miles have anyway.

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as a 24 year PCA instructor...would you track this car.... Title = salvage know, I would not get in it...not know...scary!!

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Which one? Would the Aveo pass PPI and how would it hold up at high speeds (over 70mph)???????????

I agree with the $14 to 15 K number because that is how much the engine and tranny is worth. Spend another $2K for the LNE upgrade after your purchase and the sum of its parts, minus the chassis, can potentially bring you back whole. Post pics after you get it!

Chao? a used engine and trans is worth $15k???? WHERE! the fact that the car is an auction car, has no history OTHER THAN SALVAGE should be a big enough red flag to run like hell I am done standing on the soapbox but those that said...buy it (at some price), I am shocked

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Only if you guaranteed it to 150mph I would not buy the TIP it for track. And I probably have been in students cars that were salvaged. My 1972 track car was a trade in that the dealer had to total due to damaged frame. The front pan was rusted through. I replaced the front pan, gas tank support and rear torsion bar tube. After that the car served as a very nice track car for 17 years. It is still being tracked by the new owner. I remember a beautiful red 80s 911 that was totaled at Lime Rock one year. Late the next year it showed up at Watkins looking perfect. Owner had another totaled 911 and cut them both in half put them on a frame bench and welded the two half's into one track car. That car was around North East for a few years and then went to the north west. I think they washed the title through Texas and sold it into Oregon or Washington?? (OK the red part, it was blue, and the last 2 sentences were a little leg pulling, but the car was around for a couple years.)

If the PPI checks out then I think $15k-$16k is a fair price; but that also depends on what type of accident the car was in...... I'd have it inspected by a body shop that works on Porsches in order make sure that the repair work was done properly, and to verify that the accident wasn't "too bad." I think some of you are criticizing this car WAAAAAAAAAAY too much...... While it is ideal to purchase a car with a clean accident record and a fully documented service history, if the car checks out okay then I don't see what the problem is? You're basically getting a car that's worth $30k for half the price. It's already a tiptronic, which rules it out as being a suitable "track car," but the OP never mentioned anything about wanting to track the car. For $15k you can have a very nice "daily beater" that will provide service for many years to come. You can put 100k miles on it and it should still be worth $8k-$10k...... Also the parts value of this car IS worth at least $15k just for the parts listed below, and probably a lot more once you part out the rest of the car. Here is a quick breakdown: - Engine: $6000+ - Tranny: $2000+ - Litronics: $1000+ - Tail Lights: $400 - Seats: $500+ - Wheels and Tires: $1000+ (I'm assuming it has 5 spoke BBS) - Rolling chassis in good condition $6000 - Interior: $1000+

easy to spot salvaged cars in Washington.. the water comes thru the floor IDK...I am not going to budge on this one, I wouldnt want it

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Sorry! I meant the whole car in parts is worth $14 to $15K. 15k mile engine and Tranny = $10K and wheels $1K. Seats $500.... It should add up to $14K. That being said, I agree with Ed that I would not be tracking this car and know exactly where the crash repair is on this car before proceeding. That is your weak spot.

as to the "being critical" yea...your life is on the line, why wouldt you be critical.....there is no proof the work was done by someone who has a clue how to put two cars together with a stick welder..... and what is covered up MAY come into play in the event you ever have a collision at 50mph or have a car run into you (see several recent posts where cars were totaled and the owners walked away without a scratch - critical??? yea, well I guess I am being that and wondering why you arent.....

RXDOC, "The lad doth protest too much, methinks" You better make an offer quick. I think ivangene is getting ready to swoop in and pluck that car right out of that "barn".

RXDOC you are causing a lot of turmoil here. IF/When you buy it what type & weight oil will you use in it?

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Its value is as a parts car. Without knowing what the reason for the salvage title is, it's hard to estimate what that might be. If the salvage was for flood, the value of the parts goes way down.

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Ivangene: I respect your knowledge and appreciate the criticism of this car. I don't think I ever said anything about tracking this car, just use it as a "beater". I have tracked a 928S, then a Boxster, then a 500+HP 996TT and an E46 M3. My last several Porsche PCA DE 's were in group 4 (out of 5). I respect al the PCA instructors on this board and value their opinion. The only reason I didn't get into instructing was "getting into an car with unknown history" and a reckless driver. The overall safety factors kept me away from instructing. But that is besides the point. Again with very limited resources, my options are a 1999 C2 with 100+k miles, a 2000-2003 Boxster or stepping back, waaay back into '83 sc or older. Or buying an Aveo and putting some racing stripes on it.

nooooo..... its a tip! Buy a car that you will be happy with, doing over 135mph on a salvage car will not raise confidence.... you know your gonna push the car even though its a beater.

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I love this board the entertainment value is off the scales. Don't worry fbp11, I am using a fake name and fake location and a fake color to throw off Ivangene. And for oil, I was going to use Pep Boys Premium House blend 10W-30 That should do it!!!!!!!!!!

I would make sure you can drive a salvage title car on public roads in your state. Some states you can't. Which would make this a 100% track car only.

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I have done 155+ mph on the back straight at RoadAtlanta in my 996TT. Again this car will not be tracked. There is no way I will EVER do 100, let alone 135mph on public roads. I am an old man and have had over 32 years of "enjoying manual trans.)

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ivengene, Curious, When one doesn't know why a car was totaled. What type of inspection, if any, would make you feel comfortable driving it on the road again? Strip it to the shell and rebuild it yourself? Put it on a lift and poke around under it? Something between the above two? No amount at all? The seller says its good that's good enough for me?

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if you don't care about resale.... then go for it!

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RXDOC you should instruct. You haven't lived until you get into a highly modified turbo with the owner's 18 yr old son who is on track for the first time. He isn't going to die. He is 18 and immortal, you might though. Make sure that Aveo is white with blue stripes. Stripes make it 10mph faster. WOW! 80 in an Aveo? That takes brass...bearings.

Here is an 03 being totaled and getting low balled at $28.5K by insurance. https://rennlist.com/forums/off-topi...e-squeeze.html

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What could possibly happen to the resale value? You already have a $60+ (when new) down to $15K. How much lower can it go? $10K or $5K?? You are talking to an ex-996TT owner who lost over $40K in 5 years of the TT ownership AND enjoyed every minute of it. What are they going to do to me when I try to sell this car, ask me to pay some money out of pocket to take the car??

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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'd swap the 5 to before the decimal point. Key phrase was 'for my tastes'. For $5K it's worth a punt. It's all about your attitude to risk and mine would be $5K on that car. PPI blah blah blah.....depends who is doing it, how much you trust them, if they have a good day etc etc. For a car with history much less of a problem, but for a car as you describe, it's a punt. Not saying you shouldn't do it, but 'not for my taste'. And as for pricing....come on this is Rennlist....you will get every number under the sun thrown at you

I would like to touch on the Salvage title issue. For me, it would depend on if the reason for Salvage status was verifiable. Having worked in insurance and having several recent cars classified as "Salvage\Rebuild", I am not necessarily afraid of these cars. BUT, YOU HAVE TO KNOW the details. As much as most of hate to admit, our fine Euro cars aren't worth as much to an insurance company, as they are to us. The parts cost a ton and minor body issues can "total" a car now. Airbags will almost certainly total a car out, especially when many states won't let a car be repaired with used modules. I recently had a fender bender in my beloved V70R 6-Speed. The car had slightly higher mileage, and the insurance company was super eager to slap a TOTAL on it, even though the car looked gorgeous and I wanted to keep it. I was forced into a situation where the low value of the car, versus the high cost of parts left me no choice but to walk away from a beloved, rare car (Mainly because the mileage of the car, pushed it slightly below the value needed to jusitfy repair). I could have bought the car back and fixed it, but it was forever a REBUILD title. On another hand, I have personally seen a mid-1980's Porsche 928 stolen, put on jackstands. The hood, hatch, wheels, stereo, seats and other items were snagged. Insurance guy rolls up, sees an old car with a Blue Book of under 10K, and instantly Totals it and brandishes it Salvage. Gives the guy his check for $7K. Would any of you be afraid of this car, if Porsche parts were thrown on it and there was absolutely ZERO structural damage? I would buy it all day long if the price were right, and I wouldn't be afraid to race it. Just keep in mind, that the word "Salvage" on that title, usually comes from an insurance adjuster. If they total it out of convenience, cost savings, or laziness, that car could forever be gone, even if it is a good car. If it were a flood car, or head-on, or high-speed one-way, I would walk away from it. Just my thought, as I have seen some great salvage cars come along, lately.

This could be a very nice way to get into a low mileage 996 for very little money. A salvaged vehicle could be anything from a very slight damaged theft recovery that just needed a good detailing to a car that was hit so hard that it needed half of a doner grafted on to make it work, or anything in between. I have purchased many salvaged motorcycles and repaired them for sale. All have been cosmetic with no structural damage. A motorcycle with a full fairing can fall over in the driveway and be totaled, picked up and driven 150 mph with one hand on the handlebars without issues. Have the car checked out, know what was done and go with your gut. The price seems right at just over 50% of NADA rtl.

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A coworker managed to lemon-law a brand new BMW 535i because the dealership was not able to get the wood trim (inside) to match the original that had to be replaced after 3 times and some very convincing arguments.. This is not the same as "salvage" but close. My own BMW 745iL was totalled after 5 of the 13 airbags deployed. Ofcourse there was front end damage, but the bodyshop said the airbag count was enough to total out a $28K car.

Did you post why it was salvaged? I'd have it checked thoroughly on the alignment rack, and also find out why it was salvaged. I'd also try to get my hands on the repair bill because that will explain a lot. Even if it all checks out, that car is tough to register and insure in some states... that equals horrible resale potential. Salvaged title and I don't care how well repaired, it's worth at MOST $15k and that's probably 2 to 3k on the high end. I would put a real number of about $12.5 on it. If it was salvaged due to water damage or something, it could be a great buy for a driver or track car. Just don't plan to resell or trade-in. You buy that one, it will likely be your for a long time.

ivengene, you old curmudgeon come back and bring your This thread is no fun without you.

LOL

I would want to know the details on the salvage before proceeding. Does the CARFAX have details? Some of the repairs may be obvious when the car is on the lift for PPI. I would want to be under there with my own flashlight. Quibbling about a thousand here or there seems sort of silly. It is worth whatever the market will bear. For me, the tiptronic would be a show stopper. But if you are only going to use this to cruise or DD, perhaps that is no big deal. Good luck!

i think he meant $5,016

The only other thing I can think of to have checked out is that the frame is within specs. A local body shop can point you in the right direction.

This is just my personal opinion... I would not bother with it. I don't like the Salvage Title, I don't like TIP, and I don't like the sound of auction with no records. It reminds me of some friends back in high school, they would buy 5-series that were salvaged and drive them with the biggest smile on their faces cause that didn't matter to them because they were driving a BIMMA! Oh, and they also had replica Rolex's. The cars situation would still bug me even though it’s a beater.

I know from exeprience that its hard to walk away from what you perceive as a good deal. Listen to the guys on this forum and keep looking. Salvage title = no resale value, no financing, no insurance other than liability, unknown history, crap automatic anyway. Walk away and dont keep thinking about it.

"I am not in the market for a Porsche..." Stop right there, and walk away. You shouldn't suddenly be "in the market" because you've stumbled across what might be a good deal in a salvage car. I've known many people who have made livings buying and selling cars. The only folks who make money on salvages are the folks who resurrect and repair them. If you're not that person, you shouldn't buy the car unless it's a car you intended to purchase anyway, and one that you intend to keep as something to drive and enjoy rather than one to drive and sell down the line. -Michael

someone post pics of girls...we're done here

Here you go - another barn find!

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never said about value.... what I mean is when its time to re-sell it, as you know its a very small market for salvage tittles, yes you might have to pay someone to get rid of it, its that bad.

So did you buy it???

NOT the girl I had in mind

its worth whatever he can get someone to pay. However I think I wouldnt touch it for over 10K. The Salvage title kills it for me.

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Hey......it has a Porsche, you are welcome Ed.

Awe, feelin betta!

Well maybe that was in bad taste.....so in the flavor of MNF......Go Pack!

O H H H H man...NOW we are rollin... - I am suck on this page.....Pete... BRAVO !

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Freudian slip?

I know NOTHING!

wow i've been wasting too much time on another post!

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Rxdoc, I have a little experience with rebuilding salvage titles cars. I have bought/rebuilt 7 salvage titled cars....2 99 Porsche 996s, 1 1999 Mercedes SL600, a 2003 and 2004 BMW 330i, a 2005 Range Rover, and a 2000 Jaguar XJR. I will try and correct some of the erroneous information that you have been given. You will not be able to finance a salvage titled car with a traditional car loan (an unsecured loan is not a problem). You will not have a problem getting full coverage insurance on a salvage titled car with either State Farm or AAA insurance (I can not speak from personal experience about other insurance companies, but I doubt they would have a problem either). Registering a salvage titled car in CA is not a problem....I have never heard of it being a problem in other states unless the car is titled "for destruction only". I sold the 99 996 (tiptronic) on Ebay for the low end of the current market value for that car. I documented the rebuild of the car here (it had an engine fire) and the buyer did not really care that it had a salvage title. I enjoyed the tiptronic transmission...my wife is still sad that we sold it. My current 99 996 had a dashboard fire. I rebuilt it (and documented it here) and have no intention of ever selling it. I would not rebuild salvage cars if I could only sell them for 50% of their undamaged value. If you educate yourself about the car that you are buying and have a prepurchase inspection done, you might get yourself a great deal on the car of your dreams. I personally would steer clear of frame damaged cars and most flood titled cars. The 1999 SL600 that I rebuilt was salvaged due to both frame damage and flood damage....it had neither. Be aware that most salvaged cars are moved at the insurance auction lots by forklift...it can do significant damage to the underside of the car...have it inspected. The biggest problem that I have had with rebuilding salvage titled cars is parting with them. I currently own two salvage titled cars that I don't plan on parting with. My son owns one that I rebuilt and my dad owns two. Based on the information you provided about the car you are looking at, it sounds like a great deal....if it passes both PPIs with flying colors and they accept your offer. I bet you will be surprised by how much you like the tiptronic transmission. Good luck.

This car is currently awaiting an auction date. It is salvaged due to fresh water damage. It runs and drives. If I could afford it, I would probably make an exception to avoiding flood titled cars.

Mark, I am still in envy of your ability to pick out and rebuild a bargain. You have real talent and I wish I had a small fraction of it. I would love to know the story on the GT3.

Thanks Wayne. I wish I had your engineering education and experience, rather than a worthless liberal arts education. I would also love to know the story on that car. It only has 1100 miles. I have heard that a car can get a flood title from having water go over the door sill....hard to believe it could total a car of that value.

interesting info on the banks not financing salvage titled cars. also many banks won't finance cars with over 100K miles. i learned a lot about this when i was selling my 964 w/114K miles.

Mark: Thank you so much for your insight into this matter. Some very good points. I knew about the no bank financing and insurance coverage issues. To everyone else, page 4 of this thread got dragged into the gutter. You should be ashamed of yourself. There is not enough pictures. Thanks for getting so far off topic, I enjoyed the break. I am not going to buy the car, too many opinions against it! With all due respect to mfletch!

Nice to have our residential salvage expert (Mark) chime in to clear up some misconceptions. What a list of cars that you have brought back to life. Thanks for the pics and info. And for you Pete...can you get the girl in your first pic to turn over please?

OK...Mark raises valid points.... not all salvaged cars were involved in collisions... so to that I say, you have to know why it was totaled - then I guess under certain circumstances it would be alright. I STAND CORRECTED

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Can Mark or anyone in the auto insurance industry help me with a question here. How does an insurance company pay out a claim against a salvage title vehicle. Do they have a different valuation chart in terms of the car's worth? Example: If I purchase a car with a salvage title far less than market value and get it road worthy. I then get plates and inspection in my state. What is the repair dollar value an insurance company will use to determine if it will get repaired or not when it gets into an accident?

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That's IT!!!!!!!!!!! I had given up on this car. Too many negative opinions! BUT if ivangene is changing his mind, I am going to run out there and buy the car!

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A very good question. I had checked with my insurance co. (State Farm) about coverage. But I hadn't thought it through that far.

LOL I know how to eat crow with the best of them !! anyhow, I suppose I would entertain further details....knowing is everything. I was thinking purely accidents not floods and fires.... MY BAD, I am learning but have a big mouth and fast hands so bare with me

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+1 Well said, Ed. It is not worth the risk to save a couple of bucks.

Here is a link to the insurance auction site https://www.iaai.com/Vehicles/Search.aspx I am not sure how much of it you can access without a membership. There are lots of cars that would make fun projects to rebuild and others that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I am learning to avoid cars that have been rebuilt by someone else. I would rather see that car "as is", rather than getting it after someone else did a half assed job of rebiulding it. Chao, I just had a insurance repair on my 996 that carries a salvage title. AAA insurance treated it the same as a non salvage titled car. Our 05 Range Rover was vandalized a couple months ago (it also was a salvaged car, but somehow it has a clear title). It had a terrible paint job when I bought it, but it only had 20,000 miles. AAA paid to have it completely repainted by a guy that does Pebble Beach restorations. It looks like a new car. State Farm never gave me any trouble with my salavge titled cars....they treated them the same as non salvaged cars. Gene, I missed a car a few months ago, that was for sale at the Sacramento branch of the insurance auction. It was about a 1980-1982 911 that looked identical to your red 911. It only had 80,000 miles and need new front and rear bumpers. I would have loved to have bought that car, but the timing was wrong. I believe it went for 6-8 thousand. We wouldn't have been able to part with that one either. It is always a pleasure to chat with you guys. If any of you are interested in buying a salvage car project, I would be happy to help in any way that I can. It is an addiction that I am happy to share with others.

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Finally some actual experience talking/typing.

FWIW, I am skeptical about the "documented" mileage claim. It seems pretty clear some body shop bought a hulk, repaired it, and then passed it off through auction (say, laundered it through auction). Now an aspiring flipper has it and is trying to make some quick bucks. Walk away, I say. relinuca

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Lots of assumptions and misinformation in this thread... If it was laundered it wouldn't have a salvaged title. As a couple of other people have pointed out, there are any number of reasons the car could have a salvaged title. Lots of non-salvaged title cars are bought and sold every day with the same information that's available to the OP. If the car can be had for the $15k range and it looks and drives good and offers no evidence that it was involved in a major accident, I'd go for it if you're interested. Some of you guys are so scared of your own shadow that you don't even notice a great deal staring you in the face. Is buying a salvaged '03 996 that looks and drives good for $15k something of a gamble? Yes. Is buying any comparable non-salvaged 996 for double the price something of a gamble? Yes, and it could be an even bigger gamble. IOW, some of you guys are ignoring the fact that the car can probably be purchased for about half of the going rate. That leaves a guy with a lot of options and a couple bucks in his pocket to sort out any problems he might run into. This isn't exactly the scary proposition that some are making it out to be.

Okay, I can add a little bit here. I currently own a 1987 VW Cabriolet that I bought new. At 60k miles, it was stolen in Atlanta, stripped of its interior, wheels and tires, spark plug wires and battery. That was enough to total the car in the eyes of the insurance company. The price to buy it from them was 25% of the payout I was going to get. So I did. I was able to insure, register and drive the car in Georgia from 1991 to 2001 without any issue. Then, Georgia installed a new DMV computer system, which kicked the car out for having a salvage title. I contacted them and arranged for an inspection of the car. I showed the inspector the car, provided copies of the receipts and pictures of the damage. 30 days later I had a new Georgia title with no salvage notation and have had no problems since. I've never run CarFax to see what shows up, but it might be interesting. The inspector told me my car was grandfathered under the old rules, and that if I were to try to do it in the current environment, the process would be much more cumbersome. I have to agree that without knowing more about the history of the car, I'd walk away.

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People on this forum seem inclined to make some "extreme" assumptions. **not picking on you, relinuca** "what if somebody bought 3 different totaled 911 and riveted them together and threw in fake mileage odometer, then waited for a good thunder/lightening storm to give it life, and the set it loose on unsuspecting villagers?" I haven't walked away, yet. I am giving the owner time to "percolate" We had a small disagreement on some matters. Just standing by, hoping he sells it, before long so I won't be tempted.

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Thanks for the input. I don't think it's a "great deal" but a decent one! BTW, is the Porsche in your avatar available? Does it have a clear title?

The 2003 salvage is still available (I know, shocking!). I think I can get it for $15K pending full PPI! (Tip. with 17K miles) The other end of the spectrum: A 2002 996, 6spd, with ALL records. New clutch, RMS, water pump, alternator, tires, brakes, and a whole lot more done all documented Interior looks new, exterior looks new But the car has 150K miles

Fair Kelley Blue Book on the Salvaged car is $30,000. If it passes the PPI and has had no previous frame damage, it sounds like a fantastic deal. Don't worry about the salvage title. You will love the car. Here are some pictures of my current 996. The first is before I bought it. It was totalled out at $40,000. I bought it for about $11,000 and put less than $3,000 into it to get it on the road. It took me about three months to rebuild it. If you offered me $25,000 for mine...I wouldn't sell it. I love my 996. At $15,000, your car could probably be parted out for more than the purchase price. Go for it. Happy Thanksgiving!

Here it is after a few years of modifications... If you buy the salvaged car, we will be happy to help you spend the money you saved on modifications.

I hope this thread has not petered out as I am looking at and thinking of driving two cars with salvage titles. The first, http://www.luxurycars.com/newandused...-CT-06492.aspx is a flood damaged car. The other, http://www.bargainnews.com/ct/528/in...&TheDealer=528 is a previously stolen car. It would seem from reading Mfletch's and anothers post that insurance companies are recovering about 25 to 30 cents on the dollar when they send these miscreants to auction. After any necessary repairs, what is a fair return? Without putting words in his mouth, Mr. Mfletch seems to indicate doubling ones money is a starting point. Given he has the expertise -- he can rebuild the car and I can't -- this doesn't seem unfair. Two additional questions: first, how can one find the fair market value of a salvage car on KBB? I was only able to find the price of a car in fair condition and KBB puts all cars with bad titles in the poor quality category. Second, a bit tongue in cheek here, what would be a fair offer on either of the above cars? And before anyone types "not at any price yada yada blah blah," I am an economist and if the price on either of these were $1 no one on this board could get to CT fast enough. There would be a string of Porsche pulled over on the Merit parkway. Thus, the correct question is between one and fifty thousand dollars what is the "right price"? Or, as someone else indicated already what is your tolerance for risk? I believe that both cars are safe. The flood car comes from a reputable dealer who specializes in this type of insurance/bad title sale. There are a total of two bad reviews (several good ones) that I could find on the internet and neither had anything to do with mechanical problems with cars reviewers had purchased. In fact one states they had no problems, but were surprised by the salvage title at resale. The first thing the dealer told me over the phone was that they sold flood cars. Lest yee think I am some total-newbie-sane-economist trying to make a rational decision, I am attaching a photo of my 03 Targa below. Its title is clean as a concours ashtray in California (though I technically have never seen it Chase tells me it is), and its Carfax is easy reading. Best to everyone, and hold the popcorn. Matt Post Script, I intentionally attached the links so someones else would buy these and save me the trouble of talking my wife off of the ledge at the lawyers office.

The "previously stolen" car would be easier to resell than the "flood damaged one" IMHO.

I think Mfletch has the best point here. A salvage car still has parts value associated with it. Even if the thing were to turn out to be unstable at speed, there is tremendous value locked in its individual components such as the engine, tranny, interior and other bits. Why must everyone just assume you're risking $15K? You're actually risking a lot less (if any dollars) because of the breakup value.

Hey BSonwine: I am the OP on this thread. I did some extensive research on Salvage/rebuildable titled cars. Body damage and water damage reported could be "somewhat minor" to catastrophic. You will never know, you take a huge risk. You know the used car dealer is not going to tell you the truth. As far as how much they are worth, there is no formula to figure that out. There is not going to be any records about how these cars were repaired. It might have been an expert repair.....or NOT. Seems like 50-60% of the exact same car's book value with good title. Water damage is a major no-no. The dealer on the black TT says: This vehicle was recovered as a theft recovery with absolutely no damage. All books,records,and Yeah, Right. There is also no car loan possible on these cars, you may have the $40-50 cash but how about the next buyer? I was looking at a Salvage 2003 C2 with 17K miles, but decided to go with a 2002 C2 from a rennlist member with full documentation. Remember the only person coming up good on these Salvage cars is the one who buys the to fix and then sell like mfletch (and more power to them)

Post Script, I intentionally attached the links so someones else would buy these and save me the trouble of talking my wife off of the ledge at the lawyers office. Don't worry, neither one is a "screaming deal" I don't think the rennlist crowd will be rushing to these dealerships to buy these cars.

Matt, I agree with RXDOC 100%. Both of those cars are priced way too high to justify the risk. I personally will probably never touch another flood damaged car. I like to see what I am getting into. Fire damage is my favorite, because the damage is obvious. If you want to buy a salvaged car...buy it directly from the insurance auction, before someone else has covered up the damage. I extensively photograph the cars that I rebuild, so the next owner can see exactly what they are getting. When I resell the cars that I have rebuilt, I price them significantly below the price of any other car for sale nationwide. I search Ebay, Craigslist, cars.com, and Autotrader. I do not pay attention to the condition of the cars for sale....I just find the cheapest car of the same year, make, and model, and price mine less....otherwise, why would anybody want to buy my car that has a "story". It should be a serious bargain to justify the risk. Theft recoveries can be a great deal, if you can see them before they are cleaned up and they are cheap enough to warrant the risk of mechanical damage....a salvage title voids the munufacturer's warranty. I was a Deputy Sheriff for 25 years. I started my carreer in Los Angeles. You would not want to buy any theft recovery car that was involved in a police chase. Watch the first couple minutes of "Gone in 60 Seconds" and tell me if you would want to buy that 996, after it was recovered. Matt, your targa looks great. There are some real bargains out there right now on 996 turbos. Check the sights that I listed. RXDOC, congratulations on your new 996. There is nothing like the peace of mind that comes with buying from a fellow Rennlister.

RXDOC, and Mfletch you gents (I assume) are great. I couldn't agree with you more about the price of these being to high to justify the risk. As far as the 03 is concerned, one could get on an airplane tomorrow morning and buy the same car for less without haggling, and it would come with a clean carfax and title. I was mostly curious as to what would make these a "risk worth taking.'' I think you both answered that: A much lower price and the ability to absorb the mistake. Was that a pun? My wife is a warranty administrator for a dealership which sells new German cars not Porsche. She is adamant that flood damage is an absolute no no. So why are there not more negative reviews of dealers who specialize in these cars. Perhaps people feel that they got what they paid for so why complain? That does not sound like many people I've met. Again, thanks for the thoughtful responses. At least this story has a happy ending; I keep Babette she's the Targa. M

I meant I assume your gents not I assume your great. I already knew that. M

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+1 Flood damage worries me a lot more than theft damage. Theft damage can usually be seen, though you might need a clutch replacement a little sooner than normal.

OK guys, I cant take the misinformation on this thread any longer. You would not believe the damage that has been done to a theft recovery vehicle. I say this from 24+ years of LEO experience. The vehicle has been abused in ways you have not dreamed of, including non-stop full throttle burnouts, high speed jumps, WOT neutral revs, smoked in, driven through ditches, golf courses, piled full of other losers, crack ******, etc, and usually traded for drugs, all before you get it back (after it runs out of gas or blows up). If you dont believe me (which Im sure you wont), ask any long time cop you know for the truth. The sad thing is I have seen local new car dealers recover these POS's and put them back on the lot after repairs and try to sell them as new like nothing ever happened. Bullet holes repaired of course (true story) before placed on the showroom floor. Forget about buying a theft recovery.

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Almost all of that stuff can be looked at or inspected. Again, the car in question is available for approximately half of the regular price. Over a regular priced car with a clear title, it's a no-brainer, but that's not the situation at hand here.

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KrazyK: Your very passionate discourse is much appreciated. I am sorry that you feel personally maligned by the discussion. I don't think anyone is discounting the damage in theft recovery cars. People are saying it's "maybe" the lesser of two evils compared, lets say, to a car FISHED out of the Atlantic Ocean!!!!! This has been a very helpful thread for many of us. Thank you for your input.

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Sounds pretty bad, almost as bad as your average rental car!

$15000 is a great deal, worst case, you can part it, the engine will worth 8k, tip tranny will take longer to sell, but should get 3~5k. plus all the body parts, seats, etc.

Hey: This is the OP. I ended up buying a clean title / full documentation 2002 C2 from a Rennlist Member. If anyone is interested the 2003 C2 with Salvage title is still available. Owner is very motivated. Look in Atlanta Craigslist, search Porsche, because the ad is a month old, or PM me for name/phone number. Thanks

RXDOC, I like your signature! Title is going fedex today, I will text you the tracking later. Thanks for a "no-drama" transaction! joel (king of double spaces!)

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Maybe so but who wants to turn their house/driveway into a Porsche salvage yard for the parts scavagers? Sincerely, Macster.