Is this IMS thing out of hand? The IMS Fear Factor

Its becoming the fear factor. I work for one of the highest volume GM dealerships in the Southwest and I can tell you that engines granade all the time. I'll go out on a long shot here but would guess percentages of engine failures are probably the same across all major manufacturers. It just blows my mind how the fear has been set on all 3 major Porsche Forums for quite a while now. Then a product is introduced to relieve your fear. Now a hot-line. Hats off to the marketing guy behind all this, its played out very well. But I still think its goofy. I cant wait to read the posts that follow this.

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I have to say I had some transmission issues so I had my IMS replaced however I was kind of pissed to hear that my IMS bearing was fine at 110,000 miles.

So would the 996 be better if the IMS Retrofit had never been developed and we would have simply sold everyone who has had an engine saved through our developments a new engine. In the past six months alone we have saved the owners of Boxster and 996 models an accumulative 75,000.00. This is through IMS procedures when otherwise the engine would have been deemed junk, costing the owner at least 15k per experience. I get pretty tired of being made out as the bad guy when we are the only ones willing to help people agreeing dealer tells them that they have no choice but to buy a new engine. Ao perhaps we should have never developed any IMS related components and only offered IMS upgraded complete engines. This would have certainly been more profitable. Excuse me for being an innovator who likes to solve problems. Excuse you for hating the only people who actually give a damn about your engine enough to expend their time and resources trying to save you money if you do have some bad luck. Vendor haters- boy do they inspire me.

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To do what? Can't wait to get my 996 to you for a Flat6 Innovations build!

Sorry about the type-o errors in the post above.. Posting from an iPhone that has a mind of it's own has some negative aspects...

" Excuse you for hating the only people who actually give a damn about your engine enough to expend their time and resources trying to save you money if you do have some bad luck." I think you're a bit defensive. I never said I hated anyone, as a matter of fact, I praised you for being smart. I have a question, do Porsche 996 motors fail at a higher percentage than the other major manufacturers?

We both know that your post was abrasive. I actually went on the offense, not the defense, because you insinuated that we simply have made all this up. Trade places with me and you would understand how much it sucks to try to help people that bash us.. Anyway, it's supply and demand, we didn't create the problem but we have devised several fixes for it. Without what we have done EVERY partially failed IMS bearing would lead to a new engine being required. Some people fail to recognize this.. More people fail to realize that the MFR still maintains that it's an impossible task to remove the factory dual row IMS bearing. Anyway, I don't mean to be bitter, however I do admit that dealing with the challenges that we face with engines are much more simple than dealing with a select few of the owners. As far as these engines failing as much as other manufacturers, well I can't answer that because I don't work with any modern engines other than Porsche. I put 200% of my time into the efforts to remedy problems and don't have any time to spend on other engines that are out of my focus.

I'm going to have one done due to 1) my clutch needs replacing and since I'm in there what's an extra couple hundred to get it put in vs. not doing it and having to spend between $15-20k if it does happen. It might be all hype but its just insurance. Same reason we buy any type of insurance.. If we never use it its money under the bridge if we need it and don't have it we're SOL. If it only cost a few grand to have the engine replaced as it would in say a honda civic or miata then I probably won't care about doing the upgrade but since its gonna cost almost the value of my car then I'll have it done as I don't want to be the one who gets his clutch fixed anyway and not do the upgrade to later say after my engine goes that I should've done it...

IMS troll

Is this IMS thing out of hand? The IMS Fear Factor Um, YES!!! Don't pay attention to it, you'll enjoy your car more.

IMO the percentage is not the issue...the issue is there was no cure for something that could cost you $15-20k to fix, there was no warning and there was no help from Porsche...some of those things have changed...there is a cure, there is a detection system and there is no help from Porsche as for your 110k mile car with the "good bearing" - if it had been "bad" you would not have been able to fix it for $1k plus labor...DUH! - "most" replacements are replacing "good" bearings but there is no way of knowing if yours is good until its bad, and no way of knowing its bad till its too late (until the defender came along) - so YES - you are replacing "good parts" in the name of "knowing" its now good and has a better bearing in there... there are a couple cases I have seen where the bearing was very close to grenading and those cars were so very lucky....and I have seen some that went 5 seconds longer and those cars got all new motors. Fear Factor? IDK I think its the point that more 996 owners are buying $20k cars with all they have available and a $20k repair bill would end the relationship, so fix before you "have to" Most are not Ferrari mentality where a new clutch can set you back $15k but you have the means to pay the bill and with that I think we should close this thread and get a beer

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amen my brutha!

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According the LN's site there is a way to know if the bearing is failing. "DUH?" are you serious, anyway See below................................................................... .................................. What can be done to check for a failing bearing? First of all, there's no need to loose sleep over IMS failures! There are a few simple things that can be done next time you're having your Porsche serviced to give you some peace of mind before you take the plunge and have an IMS retrofit kit installed on your car. First, add a magnetic drain plug. This makes for easy inspection for IMS debris. When doing an oil change, check the filter for any debris whatsoever. Same with the magnetic drain plug. Any sparkly metallic (magnetic) debris means you need to stop driving your car and plan to install an IMS Retrofit. Even if there is only one piece, it's a good bet your bearing is failing. Here is what IMS bearing debris looks like in the filter. Granted, this is from a full failure, but you can identify the nature of the debris from this photo: If there is any very small pieces of plastic (bearing seal), that's also a good sign that the bearing is going bad. Any oil leaks at the rear of the engine should be checked out immediately - it is common to think you have a RMS leak, but in fact, a failing bearing will allow the IMS flange seal to leak. Lastly, any technician who knows what a failing water pump or idler belt bearing sounds like should be able to use a stethoscope to listen to the IMS for similar problems from the general vicinity of the IMS bearing. http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm less worried about the IMS bearing (because Jake R has come up with a solution) and more concerned about cracked cylinders and heads.

Fear Factor? IDK I think its the point that more 996 owners are buying $20k cars with all they have available and a $20k repair bill would end the relationship, so fix before you "have to" Most are not Ferrari mentality where a new clutch can set you back $15k but you have the means to pay the bill Agree - perhaps the fear factor is what has put these cars in the $20k range to purchase - a lot of truth in the old saying that the price to purchase is not the same as the cost to own. When we were shopping for a 2nd home as the market was crumbling we found a few really nice and large homes and prices we could not believe. We had quite a few arguments about "but we can afford to buy it" vs. my "but I can't afford to own it". So we bought a fixer upper and now I tease about using the money in the bank to buy a new GTS instead of fixing up the 2nd house. God how I wish...... GTS would solve the IMS worry right?

Threads like this are just more FREE advertising for the wizard. Please shut the thread before I jump of the roof.

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+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

What it all boils down to is luck. If you have good luck, then more than likely you'll be ok.. Bad luck?? Well, start saving for a new engine. I can't believe how much it seems this situation happens to people that are already going through life challenges.. Lots of them call me and we end up having more than just a consult about engines... One poor guy had his IMS bearing fail in 2004, under warranty and Porsche took care of it.. It then failed again in 2006 and they didn't take care of it, he bought another reman engine.. Then the economy took a dump and he lost his business, he lost his house and then his Wife asked for a Divorce.. The one thing he had left was the 996 and he enjoyed it, until the IMS bearing took him out again two months ago.. He had too much and sold the car. The things people share with me when these things happen are unbelievable, but I guess it helps them to talk about it.. I have considered adding a Psychiatrist to our staff. The craziest one was the guy that called our emergency number at 0300 one morning.. He had something happen to his engine that oiled the highway down resulting in him spinning in his own oil and he hit a concrete median on I-5 in orange County.. He called us crying while he was waiting on the cops to arrive.. What blew him away was the fact that I was actually in my shop working! He never called back, so I don't know what mode of failure he experienced..I am not even sure that it was the engine, but he said he heard a rumble just before the craziness happened. I could tell these stories all day long, but none are as unbelievable as the guy that had his engine fail in the parking lot of a dealership at idle emit a rod bolt through the block... He then took it into the service department and they didn't know what it was.. He called me and texted the picture to me and I identified it right away.. He was there to trade the car in, but I guess he arrived about 5 minutes too late. I believe the dealership accepted the car on trade anyway, but he also never called back. Like I said, there is no rhyme or reason to IMS bearing failures and there is seldom a symptom thats identifiable by someone who is not a specialist. Its all luck. BTW- someone earlier said that at 110K miles their bearing was pulled and "was fine".. I guarantee you that if that bearing was disassembled it would show its wear. I have never pulled an IMS bearing that wasn't worn.. I have two 5 gallon buckets full of them all documented with miles and what model of engine they were extracted from.. Only one "looked fine" when I took it apart and it came from a car that had an elective procedure carried out at 1800 miles. Got Luck?

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I'm sure there is some wear on the bearing I replaced just as there is some wear on my engine, tires, brakes, pistons, etc... I'm not going to argue with you guys about what LN engineering, who makes the bearings, states on their website about IMS bearings but I do have a couple of serious questions that aren't answered on their site. They state their bearings are ceramic. If that's the case will having a magnetic drain plug still work and would shavings still show in the oil filter? LN states to replace their bearing every 50k miles. If my OEM bearing lasted 110k miles would it be better to replace with an oem style? And one more thing, will the "IMS bearing failing detector" that is being sold be able to detect a failing ceramic bearing type? ................................. From LN site.. Does installing an IMS retrofit or doing an IMS Upgrade make my engine immune to an IMS failure? It's hard to answer that question. Porsche revised the design three times across the MY97 to MY08 M96 engine and eventually decided to eliminate the IMS completely from the new MY09 engines. It may be advisable to consider the IMS a service item, like a timing belt in many modern cars. Seeing that we started to see more MY05 engines with IMS failures in late 2009 as well as failures in MY06 (with revised 3rd gen bearing) in late 2010, that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered every four years or 50,000 miles to 5 years or 60,000 miles, similar to many manufacturers' powertrain warranties. That said, we've put the best bearings we can in our IMS Retrofit Kits and Upgrades to give your M96 the best fighting chance for a long service life. Currently we have three years of service of our IMS Retrofit and IMS Upgrades with zero failures and several thousand in service.

No use in arguing. I carried out the test work for LN and my hands did the first bearing retrofit using their components. I designed the bearing extractor that is currently used. I have worked with LN since before they were even a "company" on many projects, to include the development of their "Nickies" line for aircooled and then watercooled engines. LN and my company have teamed up to develop all these products. Charles from LN is my co-instructor at our "M96 101 Engine Rebuild School" held here four times per year. Yes, because any wear that occurred would exist at the inner and outer race, which are ferro-magnetic materials. What OEM bearing? The OEM has never offered a replacement bearing- they maintain the bearing is not serviceable with the engine assembled. They will only sell you a complete IMS assembly that uses the 997 style bearing, which isn't even applicable to pre 2001 M96 based engines due to the style of IMS drive chain thats used. What LN is stating is the fact that the bearing is being made with the best materials possible as a retrofit that can be applied with the engine assembled. They are further stating that we had to work with the real estate and engine design that Porsche gave us when developing the retrofit bearing. No way to create a million mile product when working with compromises like the factory supplied. This is the reason why an inspection and replacement is recommended every 50K. It certainly will and is being tested right now in one of my 996 vehicles that has the IMSR fitted to it. As soon as we release the product all of my fully upgraded engines will come with the IMSG and it will also be applied to every car that we see at the shop for specialized internal procedures. The IMSG has the ability to identify other modes of failure as well, not just IMS Bearing Failure; however it was specifically designed to be most effective in scenarios where imminent IMS bearing failures are occurring. Where was your bearing made? Poland, Japan, France?

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I have no clue as to where my bearing was made, its probably in someone's 5 gallon bucket somewhere. Ok well I believe my questions are answered. I did want to reiterate I stated "OEM style bearing" as in why LN didn't use ceramic in a sealed bearing because my sealed OEM bearing lasted so long. I do believe there is some hype (moot of course) especially after reading LN's site but in my case I had tranny work being done which involved failed bearings so I said do them all.

My 2cents on this is that even if the failure rate was at 3% there is an alternative. By people denying the fact that in some instances they could fail keeps it a dirty little secret for Porsche. That sort of thing will hurt resale by scaring off buyers. The replacement of this bearing isn't that bad to do therefore it's no big deal. There is a solution so I don't feel like it should be the boogie man in the closet. These are awesome cars,and shouldn't be maligned for something that can easily be replaced, preemptively.

EXACTLY!!! But prior to the work that LN and I carried out this wasn't the case.. It was a problem with no solution and that REALLY killed values. We get crap for our efforts, but without them where would the 996 be? At least the bearing procedures have been perfected and the extractor has been perfected well enough to support successful DIY procedures. We have worked hard to do this, so cars don't have to come to our facility unless someone wants our version of the retrofit or they experience a "complicated situation" with a partial failure or something weird.. Service writers are still telling people that the bearing cannot be replaced, this happened as recently as last week. In that scenario we say that we support miraculous feats on a daily basis. BTW- All bearings are embossed with a country of origin on their outer seals... Thats what I was referring to.

All I have to say is if you don't believe in the IMS scare, Flat6's marketing tactics and the trend that may be present in these engines. Then a) Don't read threads like this (or start them). b). Don't patronize Jake's business & c). Let people make their own conclusions about what they believe and don't. By perpetuating rumors, talk and drama about this topic you inherently ruin the experience of owning one of these cars and belonging to a fine forum like this. FWIW I bought Jake's IMS Guardian. I have spent $400 in worse places. Las Vegas...... Ok I have now stepped off my podium and have grabbed me a beer...

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Thank you. For that post I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet!

I'm planning to have my IMS bearing replaced with the updated version. All bearings wear, no matter how well they are lubricated. It's triboloby 101. If we have the opportunity to replace a bearing before it fails with an updated design and newer low-wear materials, then what's the downside? Now, about that beer...

I'm in...who brought the beer?

QUOTE "We both know that your post was abrasive. I actually went on the offense, not the defense, because you insinuated that we simply have made all this up." Jake where did you come up with this? Read my post and then you reply. I wasn't nasty at all. I started the thread because I'm amazed how this IMS subject has taken over this forum. Funny you never answered my question. Do 996 engines fail at a higher percentage than other major manufactures? I'll say it again, hats off to you you're a smart businessman with a very captive audience that is happy to hand you over their dough! Howard Cosell once said, "I call it the way I see it". Peace!!!

I absolutely answered your post directly. I stated that I have no idea how the 996 engines fail when compared to other engines, because I don't work with them. Its impossible to calculate the percentage of M96 engines that fail, because the accurate pieces of that equation do not exist.. due to this you can't compare the amount of failures to any other manufacturers. You insinuated that this is some sort of conspiracy that we have made up and supplied a fix for. I don't like it when people don't have the intestinal fortitude to just come out and say things. The only way around a problem is straight through the middle of it- If you really didn't mean what you said in any negative way; well perhaps I am off base. I am sick of having to be nice when people make snide remarks- thats all. Sincerely, The Wizard

A quick note to Jake I definitely want the unit I pre-,ordered. Why can't the disbelievers/haters move on? I am. Patiently waiting for the IMSG.

This is all so tired... 1. IMS problems exist, probably in 5-10% of M96 cars (Numerous serious magazine articles have covered the problem in depth and I personally know people that have bought new engines) 2. Driving the car at higher RPMs along with frequent oil changes can help avoid IMS problems (and is what you should be doing with a frickin' Porsche anyhow) 3. There is a better bearing that can be installed as a preventative measure (I have done so) 4. A new product may provide some warning of potential failure (buying this, or the bearing update, or an extended warranty is probably a good idea) 5. The 996 is an bloody amazing car And Jake... You really don't need to tilt at every windmill that comes in your path. It seems to me that you have explained yourself ad nauseum. Serious thinking people know what you are about, and this medium is full of non-serious people just looking for a fight or a slight. Ultimately you just wind up in a circular argument that you cannot win. Perhaps you should just go silent for a while and let Excellence do the talking in a month or so?

Going silent just fills my inbox with questions. It also allows all the misinformation to get posted like wildfire.. I am more than ready to be done with the IMSG.. It should be the final IMS related development that we work with. Anyway, your post was very good and to the point. I liked it :-)

Can't wait to get mine Guardian with the hotline. I was around number 70 who bought one. It's fantastic some keeps giving us options. Thanks Jake.

You just have to look at the used 996 listings on autotrader, Craigslist, etc. to see that there are A LOT of 996's with new engines. When I researched the 996 prior to my purchase, I knew that there was a fix for the IMS bearing problem. I would not have bought one if there had been no way to reduce my risk but everyone will make their own decision. I replaced the IMS bearing myself thanks to the LN bearing, using the tools pioneered by Jake and the many great DIY posts on this forum. Cost me <$800 to do. Cheap insurance to address a potentially costly problem in my book. This is the most fun car I have ever owned and I am very glad I bought it. I enjoy it very much.

Raise your hand if you've (personally and not affiliated with LN) logged over 100k miles on their non factory IMS.........anyone?

Or 35-40k?

Anyone?

Meryhank, no one is going to raise their hand because LN customers would have changed their retrofitted bearing twice by the time they reached that mileage milestone, as per LN's recommendation. However, to be fair, Porsche did give LN an atrociously awful platform to work with.

Ok thought I corrected myself in 2nd post

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I think this thread's responses are missing the point. There would not be such an uproar if pcar engines are as cheap to replace as GM engines. Checking out!

Jake is an awesome guy who developed something that prevented many of our cars from being completely useless. He did not "make" his market, he responded to a need in the market. Lay off him - he's a good dude!

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Thanks! I needed that! Retrofits have only been possible for 3 years now.. Someone would have to drive 33,333 miles per year to rack up 100K on a bearing in this amount of time. The most mileage I personally know of on an IMSR that we carried out is 55,000 miles. We haven't had any complaints from our customers and still have a 100% effectiveness rating. If retrofits were not working and were failing; you guys would know it.

And on that final note.... This has run it's course.