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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHWhat makes the 1999 so special anyway??
Reported repair
Repair build date
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Reported cause
It was the Boxster model that transitioned to a new production line in Finland under contract with Valmet.
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Reported cause · Original poster
while the 3.4 issue can theoretically be mitigated by proper warmup, the 3.6/3.8 issue is considered, by multiple knowledgeable sources, to be unavoidable in the later cars affected; which is apparently a
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Reported cause
Furthermore, regardless of the look and feel of the interior, which personally I quite like, the interior in my 3/98 has proven to be incredibly high quality and long lasting.
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Suggestion
(It's actually quite difficult to find a straight stretch of road up here to check your alignment--we are that curvy!) And, from what I can gather, the plain-jane , non-S, Carrera's were the last the small Porsches; the "S" and most of the subsequent models are 6 inches wider.
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Reported cause · Original poster
while the 3.4 issue can theoretically be mitigated by proper warmup, the 3.6/3.8 issue is considered, by multiple knowledgeable sources, to be unavoidable in the later cars affected; which is apparently a
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Reported cause
Furthermore, regardless of the look and feel of the interior, which personally I quite like, the interior in my 3/98 has proven to be incredibly high quality and long lasting.
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Reported cause
Regarding the quality of materials, there were some decisions made to enhance the interior of the 996 but these materials used turned out to be less durable over the long term.
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There is no other single 911 model year that is so unique within its own generation, as MY1999.
And then, even within MY1999, there is the "early-build" '99 variant in amber lenses, that is even less numerous (only 3,649 known examples worldwide), and even more unique!
Here is the unified list of what we've gathered on these beauties over the past 24 years;
I. General MY1999 Uniquenesses overall:
1. Dual-row original IMSB
, that is eminently more durable than the later single-row design introduced mid-2000 production. First half of MY2K production cars use the 1999 dual-row as well. Anecdotal evidence suggests less than 1% failure rate for these original 1999 dual-row IMSB units. I personally drove a former MY1999 to 160K miles with original IMSB without issue (sold the car AFAIK still going strong)
2. Legacy 911 cable throttle
(C2 only, not C4). Like all previous 911's before 996, you decide how much gas the motor gets with your right foot. With later >MY2K "eGas" the ECU decides this for you.
3. Manual actuation front and rear trunk
latches. If the battery dies it can be instantly accessed for charging by simple lever pull. MK2K shares this feature, but with later >MY2001 cars the trunk's operation is electrified through the ECU, making dead battery access astronomically difficult (if not virtually impossible) through a latched trunk.
4. No "nannies"
(TC/PSM/PASM etc...). TC (Traction Control), which was a sort of prehistoric precursor to PSM (Porsche Stability Management), was actually only
optional
in MY1999. So I personally sought out only 1999's without TC; this isn't possible on the >MK2K and later PSM cars. And of course it's all become a downhill slide into auto-driving electronica from there 997> (PASM, etc...). Thus a true "no nanny" 1999 996 (TC delete) is not only an astronomically rare find, it is the only actual 100% "analog" driving water-cooled 911 in existence, except for full blown GT and racing variants that weren't sold in the U.S. until MKII 2002>.
NOTE:
A few owners on Rennlist over the years have claimed their MKII C2 as being optioned with no-PSM, however all MY2000 and later 911's had the eGas computer controlled throttle body; as do
all
the GT's.
Therefore
the Traction-Control-Delete MY1999 is the only 100% "analog" water-cooled 911 ever made! (IE cable throttle + hydraulic steering + NO driver's assistance technology)
5. "Buffalo Hyde" dash and "Granite"
interior materials. Some consider these unique, if not quirky, 1999 interior materials superior in look, feel, and durability to the later "Pleather" & "soft touch" rubberized surfaces fitted MY2K> and later. Indeed complaints about 996 "plastic-y" interior materials regard the later MY2K> versions; which is quite ironic as the M2K> standard "Pleather" dash material is apparently identical to the previous 964/993. See "early 1999" list below for additional <09/98 clarification.
6. Optional LSD
(limited slip differential). This optional feature available only MY1999 can be important to drivers who track their cars. Unfortunately LSD was always paired with TC, so the "holy grail" of LSD and no-TC is only possible on the 1999 GT3 that was never delivered to North America. A "no nanny" 1999 (see #4 above) is the closest one can get to this "grail" 996 in the United States.
7. Legacy 993 headliner
material; uses original 911 lightweight vinyl instead of the much thicker and heavier Alcantara MY2K> & later, that required more finicky and noisome metal supports. Lends another “solid” vintage touch to the MY1999 interior that 911 purists love.
8. No OBC
(on board computer) as standard. For the "purist" sect the early 1999's that did not choose the OBC option (#659) came both without the computer display in the dash, and missing the fourth steering control stalk for OBC operation. Some enjoy the increased left leg room. OBC functions are nonetheless present in all 996 ECU, and can be enabled on the early 1999 by fitting a functioning switch into a dash or console button blank slot for this purpose. Regardless the lack of OBC control stalk and simpler gauges readout lends yet another "vintage" aura to the early 1999 interior for purists.
***
FYI, pair an OBC-Delete with TC-Delete (see #4 above) and you have the "holy grail" of zero-nannies, analog modern 911's in the United States. Find one with #408 "Technology" wheels fitted (see #4 second list just below) and you're likely looking at an ultra-lightweight: "
one-of-one"
II. Specific Early-Build '99 (Ambers) Uniquenesses:
Subset of MY1999 with build date stickers from 11/97 - 08/98
NOTE:
MY1999 was in production from end of 1997 well into 1999; almost three years and 30K total units produced across all versions (cabs, tips, C4, GT3, etc.). However "early build" '99 C2 units were only hand-built for nine months of alternating production on a single assembly line, and this was in sequence with outgoing 1998 993 cars; rendering only a fractional early-build '99 production total compared with MY1999 overall.
By VIN's this limited "early build" '99 C2 production has been determined to be 3,649 units total
. Most early-build 996 pre-production was dedicated to the MY1998 ROW launch, and PCNA only imported a fraction of these early-builds as MY1999 to the U.S.
The Rennlist "Early-Build 99 Registry"
is attempting to document all early-99 cars in the U.S.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ispreloading=1
1. "Hand assembled"
in sequence with the outgoing 993 production cars on their assembly line. Classic 911 engineering guru Jake Raby, and many others, have noted a tangibly increased "build quality" with these "early build" '99 cars. I personally find no quality deficiency in any 996 of any year, however I can attest the "early build" 99's do "feel" indestructible somehow, in a kind of ineffable way. The squeaks, creaks & rattles seemingly ubiquitous on classic 911's, and the subsequent water-cooled generations that followed, are strangely absent on these early-build '99 "tanks".
2. Amber-lenses
head and tail lights. Affectionately known for their "fried eggs" moniker, these singularly unique (see note below) lighting units were fitted exclusively on the limited, "early build" '99 production run on the 993 assembly line. Anecdotally its believed Porsche fitted the special amber lighting to "commemorate" the brief, early-production run, as this "changing of the guard" was celebrated internally by Porsche far more than Marketing allowed the factory to share publicly. For example a much higher than usual percentage of these "early build" '99 cars were internal Porsche "Executive" orders (included under "Sonderwunsch", or "Special Wishes" option code #09991), and most of these likely remain "in the family" to this day. Even The Porsche Museum utilizes a disproportionately high number of "early-build" '99 amber lenses examples in both live installations on site, and all its social media/advertising involving the now "Porsche Classic" Type 996. IE, Americans may not be hoarding early-build 996's yet, but Porsche employees & insiders have been curating them for decades.
NOTE:
It is a misbelief that the MKI 996 and Boxster share headlights; not true at all. Factory part numbers differ between the two Porsche models, and the 911 unit is twice the replacement cost of the Boxster's. The internal frame and wiring harness connector are similar enough, however, to allow Boxster headlights to be used as replacements in 996's (to save $$$); although both should be replaced together due to the stark aesthetic differences between the 996 & Boxster headlights when actually observed together.
Additionally
because several have asked, it should be noted the unique 996 headlights used on the MKI Carrera, are identical to those fitted on the 996 GT1 Strassenversion, and MKI 996 GT3 models as well.
3. Color-thru "Granite" interior
materials (nicknamed "Sparkle"). This original early 1999 "Granite" material was manufactured by the same company, and used in Rolls Royce's of the same generation. It's very distinctive, and unique. And very nearly indestructible. Later 1999 (>09/98) cars switched to a color-applied granite-like material which is somewhat less durable than the earlier color-thru material; but remains vastly more durable than the rubberized stuff that was used MY2000 and later.
4. Ultra Lightweight #408 BBS "Technology" wheels
: An extremely light 993 narrow fitment Turbo wheel option #408 was commissioned by Porsche from BBS, and also made available to "early-build" MY1999. To date these #408's are the lightest 18" wheels ever offered by Porsche (YES, lighter by almost two pounds than the fabled MY02 "Carerra II Lightweights"), and the early-build 1999's lucky enough to have been so equipped actually
weigh less than 2,900 lbs
total; rendering these scant few MY1999 examples the lightest road-legal 911's ever built with 300HP+. And given the option was only available briefly during early-build MY1999 production, there were few enough configured this way for these variants to now be considered
extremely
rare; which is exceptional for any "modern" Porsche.
Official #408 996 narrow fitment hollow spoke weights:
993.362.134.05
-
Front: 7.5” = 18.9LBs
993.362.140.01
-
Rear: 10” = 23.3LBs
Source:
http://www.944racing.de/wheelweights.php
Wow never heard anyone praise the 4-spoke wheel before. My 04/98 car has it in Savannah Beige, and I�ve always aspired to go 3-spoke (though finding one has proven close to impossible). Although I dislike the large radius and thin rim of this wheel, maybe I�ll look at it differently from now on. The leather is still in beautiful shape (180K kms).
That's a great summation of the check boxes the '99s offer. And precisely why some of us sought out early 99 cars. Thanks for compiling. Hopefully this will prevent these questions from popping up every few weeks/months
Oil flows into the sump under the Mezger too, if that makes you feel better. My own concern over the dry-to-integrated sump "bait and switch" was that Porsche cut manufacturing cost of the motor in half, but maintained the same retail price 993 -> 996. That smacks of fraud. And in fact Porsche's CEO was arrested and tried for corporate fraud in German high court. You should read the (over 12 years of) court transcripts. Very, very interesting!
BaT peanut gallery needs to start asking for engine serial number on the early 1999s. As some of us are finding, our serial numbers, though not AT-stamped, don't have a 1998 build designation, but instead a 1999, indicating a replacement very early in the lifetime of the car.
Yes this resulted from the early production warehouse fire that forced the factory to temporarily use engine blocks that were previously culled for failing x-ray integrity test. All these blocks failed in only a few thousand miles of service with the "engine block porosity" warranty issue; also nicknamed "coolant intermix". This is a non-issue at this point, as all such affected engines have already been replaced under original factory warranty. Unless of course one now finds an example with less than a few thousand miles; which is a remote possibility I suppose, and in which case your advice is quite relevant!
Terminated CEO was named Wenderling Weiderking.
Porsche manufactured the ruse that it was going bankrupt early-2000's to lure VAG into buyout negotiations that afforded exclusive access to private VAG sales and asset data. Then Porsche leveraged that "secret" information and its behemoth cash position in a failed hostile takeover attempt of VAG, that was later deemed "criminal corporate fraud" by German prosecutors.
This is where "
The 996 saved Porsche from bankruptcy!
" myth originated from.
Porsche was actually illegally trying to cash-purchase the largest vehicle manufacturing conglomerate on earth (VAG) at the precise moment it was claiming to be "bankrupt". Porsche actually "leaked" the falsified economic data to the press (the fraud), who ran with the false narrative like banshees because it fed directly into their rabid hatred of the newly released (and despisedly water cooled) 996. Suddenly the entire automotive press world had a feasible explanation for "
Why The 996 Will Never Be Collectible
".
Hogwash.
But of course once Weiderking was arrested for fraud not one media outlet ever bothered to publish retraction of all the lies
And the absurdly false narrative "
the 996 saved Porsche from bankruptcy
" lives on in the blithely ignorant collective automotive consciousness to this very day.
I'm not saying that there's any concern regardless of whether the engine is original or replaced; I'm saying the pedantry of the BaT commenters is failing unless they also latch on to this detail as "important" and repeat it incessantly in every 996 auction.
So many "Clean CarFax" examples, though! One can't go wrong when buying sight unseen.
Well many original 996 motors were replaced under warranty due to both the coolant intermix, and the IMSB issues. Motors being replaced under warranty is nothing new to Porsche, or any other manufacturer. But I see your point, and yes there is an awful lot the peanut gallery overlooks in their brief, quixotic due diligence lexicon.
With BaT you have to "buy the seller". That is the only way.
Love the enthusiasm but did the 99 even reach 300hp? I thought the 02 was the 1st 911 NA to break 300hp at under 3000 lbs.
It�s a silly stat but what is true? I�m going off Excellence.
I think it really comes down to looks. They are all great cars one way or the other.
Lastly, Keep up the good work on BAt. The 996 needs an advocate and you are quite the ambassador.
As requested, here's my steering wheel. The leather on the shift **** is not so pristine...in fact highly discolored especially on the passenger-facing side. Going to go at it with leather cleaner soon. The granite center console is absolutely unmarked, though the frunk release lever looks very worn. I haven't seen another car with BOTH the horseshoe and the center vents in beige. Also: full leather FTW!
What is the "official" number 296?? That seems fairly close enough to call 300 eh?
Edit: Changed this section to include the original "296" marketing number. Thanks!
As the owner of 2/98 build 996 I applaud your enthusiasm for the 1999 model.
Mine is a somewhat stripped down model with:
(014 Sports Options Package)
030-Sports Suspension
220-Limited Slip Differential
375,376- Sports Seats
Plus
408- 18� Turbo Technology Hollow Spoke Wheels
It�s amazing how the partial leather interior has held up and it looks better than most cars half its age.
After 23 years the cabin still smells like leather.
But most importantly it still runs and drives great!
And not just great for a 23 year old car.
Looks like its time to do a Rennvision video on this topic.
I love the 99, and always have.. All of a sudden people started to agree with me, when the prior thinking was "buy the newest 996 you can afford". That was a few days ago, but it still happened..
Its funny how people start to agree after you said something almost 2 decades earlier..
Hell, I used to applaud the 99 996 and people disagreed.. They thought the 996.2 was the 996 to own..
The only thing more ironic is how I always loved the 914, but was shunned by all the "tail dragger" 911 guys for 25 years or so... Now all of them want a 914, and they think 914s are cool. The 914 used to be "a Volkswagen", and the 911 guys basically pissed on us. Nothing ever stays the same......
I find it rather funny that the best, and most notable point (#1) is that the engine is less likely to prematurely end itself.
Also, to note, in the end, even with a cable throttle, the ECU still decides how much gas the engine gets
edit: good list though, and interesting RE the interior material changes. I only thought it changed once in 99, but I guess it was twice! Learned something today.
Nope, plain old black. Broke my personal vow to never buy another black car, but for various reasons this car was the ticket. The previous owners replaced the front ambers with Litronics and also the rear ambers. I have only the rears in my box 'o parts but one is cracked. I have the original 17' wheels and cassette holder but not the original CR-210, which had been replaced with a CDR-210, which I removed and still have. I'm not a purist or hung up on originality, but I do appreciate some of the 99-only features my car does have.
Point well taken, but IMO obviated by the plethora of IMSB corrections readily available these days.
My personal favorite is the #408 wheels and ultra lightweight.
The amber lenses are also beautiful contrasted against darker colors.
And of course if your battery ever goes dead, I suppose the cable frunk release becomes the greatest feature on planet earth
Luckily, a problem easily preventable by investing in an inexpensive battery that can be used to jump start your car. I keep mine in the passenger side door. Just hook it up to the terminal near the fuses and door hinge and pop goes the frunk
Let's talk about some of the things that the '99 cars DO NOT have:
Bore scoring
Seems to be less of an issue...did I once hear something about a different cylinder liner material in the early cars?
Cupholders
Both the 996.1 and 996.2 affairs seem flimsy, small, and poised to get fluid all over the electronics below. I have one Ultimate Cupholder in the passenger side and it works great.
Glove box
This stings a little bit, though the cabin is otherwise not too bad for storage especially if you have no door speakers like me or a GT3.
Ugly exhaust tips
I'm sorry, the 996.1 ones are much more attractive than the later cars, including the Siamesed ones that are supposed to evoke a turbo exhaust but don't.
Turbo-style headlights
I like both designs equally, which is to say I tolerate them.
Fake turbo body kit
Hate me if you like, but every day I would look at a C4S if I owned one and say "fake turbo body kit".
Digital speedometer in speedometer dial
Speaking for myself, I find this more useful under the tach...I have to look at it exclusively since my car is an American import.
Multicolor dash display
Yeah I wouldn't mind this, along with an activated OBC. Most German cars of the era came with an OBC, so the vintage thing doesn't wash.
Bose stereo
Heard mixed things about this, and for sure the MOST-equipped cars present a problem unless you want to go PCCM+. I went aftermarket for all my audio gear.
Extra hp (and weight)
I haven't driven a 996.2 much, so I don't know what I am missing. Some say the 3.4 is more revvy, which works for me.
The manual pull is kind of a pain when you are coming out of the store and you want to put stuff in the frunk, but it's a small price to pay for not having to worry about being locked out. Definitely the lesser of two evils in my mind.
While bore scoring is indeed less prevalent the lower the bore size, (and as such is virtually non existent in the 3.4) the cylinder lining is Lokasil for all M96/M97 Carrera variants.
You don't notice the power difference between the 3.4 and 3.6 cars (I've had both). My '99 felt considerably lighter when driving and something about the 3.4 cable-throttle engine feels very air cooled. I'd love to get my hands on another one some day.
Philbert, like the IMS plate!
Bdronsick, Is the lack of computer/ stalk an early (8/98) thing only? I�d swear I don�t have it but not at home for a bit and can�t find a good interior pic. ( They�re all of that beautiful ocean blue body)
You know, it's awfully funny now that I look on CL and see 914's starting at $10-14k. I knew it would happen some day. I guess that's starting to show my age, lol. I still think its a VW with pizaazzzzzzz. I drove one 20 years ago and it was a blast in the twistys.
Here is a list of the main changes for the Mk2 996:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post15173972
Summarized from this article which is a review of the Mk2:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post15174035
I think it's worth noting the E99s also used left over stereo units from the 993, which were shared with the Boxster - the CR210 and CDR210 by Becker.
Coupled with a GT3 console delete and a 4 spoke wheel, these make the interior unmistakably classic 911.
Also, I thought E99s were offered with a 3 spoke steering wheel but there was an airbag recall that delayed or affected production and most got replaced with a standard 993 4 spoke wheel ?
996.1s had cup holders ? My 6/98 does not. I've seen people relocate the HVAC unit and put the mid year 986 Boxster double cup holder assembly in that spot. Those seem small and horrible.
My 4/98 built car has this digital speedometer.
I agree that is it a useful feature, since my car is Canadian and has a KPH/Celsius dash (which I prefer
heavily
over the Imperial units...), and it's good to have an immediate reading of the speed in MPH as I noticed the 911 is attracting more police attention than my Volvo...
Not having glovebox is really a pain though... But being European I never understood the points of having cupholders in a car so I don't miss those
I like this topic, most of those points were the reasons why I was looking for a '99 but I learned some new stuff and now love my car even more
Aside from all the linked items and "research" that has been posted here, the difference in the 99s can be felt when driving the cars. The cable driven throttle is just one aspect of this, too.
I have driven hundreds of these cars.. At this point the numbers are in the thousands. Every car that comes to my facility gets driven
at least 104 miles
, which is two loops on the "Flat 6 Ring", where we test new engines. Most see 160-200 miles before they leave.
Many times I have my choice of which car I will test drive, and if there's a 99 in the lot, I am going to drive THAT car, and I'll leave a 997.1 C2S sitting next to it. There's been times that I'd leave a 996TT sitting next to it, and choose to drive the '99. I don't care how nice the '99 is, how many miles it has, or anything else. The '99s never have rattles, the steering action is faster, and the car feels lighter, and more nimble. The shifters feel better, and the cars seem to have quieter drivetrain. The list of differences I have noted from tactile feedback, and other senses are numerous.
You can read all you want, look at articles, query specs, and all of that; drive a few hundred cars on the same exact road, shifting at exactly the same places, braking at exactly the same places, and you'll have your own way of comparing these vehicles.
I don't want the newest car, I want the simplest car that is clearly built better, and the one that I determined was the best car years before anyone else did. That is why the only 996 I want is a '99 C2, white with a gray interior, with at least 80K miles. I'm "over" Porsche collecting, but the car I mentioned is one that I'd keep in my stable till the end. Ok, back to cleaning the idle jets in my 912 carburetors... Remember what I said about simple? Yeah, it counts the most to me.
Long time lurker here, but first time poster. Just wanted to share a few pics of my 5/98 build C2 with the rare 408 hollow spokes and no TCS or OBC. I specifically sought one in this spec years ago before the early 99s started becoming desirable. To me, it was always a mystery why these were not appreciated, it is technically "better" and faster than the 993 and the last gasp before eGas and computers took over, raising the weight and disconnecting the driver. I thought I was weird that I considered this car the holy grail of the entire 911 line, but now at least I know I'm probably not the only one!
On my 2000, you still have a manual pull of course but it is locked by the central locking system. So, if the battery is flat, and you open the door with the key, the central locking won't unlock the pull handle and you're still locked out of the frunk. Is this any different on a '99?
VB I have a similar spec car as yours but mine is an Factory Aero
I hope all the 99’s get their well deserved praise because there is supported differences for the better
Mike
They are quite different. Not saying “better” just different. Basically like a “Rennsport” variation, especially with the insanely light #408 wheels (or any ultra lightweight wheels). That list is quite long there really are an awful lot of differences that just add up.
And they’re not for everyone. Not everyone wants to actually go
back
in time. Or feel and hear
more
of the road, or drivetrain.
I’ll say if you’re over 50 or have owned aircooled models (especially pre-993) then the 1999 is your 996.
Conversely if you’re a “buy the newest Porsche you can afford” adherent then Early-1999 should definitely
not
be on your radar.
Early-1999 both
feels
very raw, and
drives
very old school, and it costs more now than almost any other 996. IE why pay for what you’re not gonna appreciate
The list list is correct: 1999 & 2000 trunk operation are identical. You make a great case for never locking the car; especially in the garage. I never do
You aren’t the only one to consider Early-1999 a “grail” 911 (obviously). A brilliant car like this can’t remain anonymous forever. 911 history always discovers it’s favorites
So many serendipitous events culminated to generate that brief “early 1999” production run on the 993 assembly line (11/97 - 08/98). Not the least of which was Porsche Marketing looking to capitalize on the recent 996 GT1 LeMans win in the Europe market before the dust settled on the trophy; forcing an “early” production run that was far ahead of the 996 launch schedule, and directly into the 993 production cycle.
Remember the 1997 993 GT1 had been an
absolute nightmare
for Porsche with multiple DNF at LeMans the previous year. The astronomically unlikely
double-win
in 1998 with Type 996 actually surprised Porsche more than Road & Track!!.
So as you observe, quite a few “993..” parts had to be sourced and retrofit into these early-run cars as a result. This just makes them all the more interesting; at least to me. And having owned several air cooled, and also removed the gargantuan center console (as you well note), I feel quite at home now in the 1999, albeit with almost 100 more horsepower, and several hundred pounds less weight
Only MY1999 used the legacy 911 vinyl headliner material. Starting with MY2K Porsche changed to Alcantara.
IMO Alcantara is more “luxurious” but is also thicker and heavier and requires more supports, which in turn increases points of failure and noisome rattles. I vastly prefer the “taught” and lightweight 993 vinyl. The Alcantara in my Turbo just seems like a big flapping black towel hanging down up there. In the 1999 the headliner is like a “skin” against the roof, and simply disappears.
That is totally normal, MY are regulated in Europe and are not up to manufacturer choice.
MY changes on July 1st of every year, the 996 was put on the market in the end of 1997 so it makes it naturally a MY1998, cars sold after July 1st of 1998 are MY1999. Porsche had no saying in that.
That was one wining lotto ticket.
Ironically enough I bought the most expensive 1999 for sale at that time in the United States, personally from collector Joe Isringhausen, thru his own franchise Porsche dealer. I know: $$$tupid right!? Brilliant 911 market analyst FirstFlatSix tried to warn me I was crazy and overpaying, and He was right.
But I knew exactly what I wanted, and I don’t regret it. It’s a Rennbow-unicorn early-build and is so unbelievably lightweight on those #408's I swear it pulls more G’s than my Turbo. With the console-delete and all that old-school 1999 kitsch it feels like a freaking 1967 inside.
911 Perfection
I think I was the reason for this thread. Sorry. I was asking on BaT if my 09/98 might be considered an early build, even though it is normally listed -08/98. I have all of the items in the checklist on my Arena Red/Savannah Beige. Maybe it was the last one to roll off the old assembly line - let me dream ok. My first car in 1983 was a 1972 914. Loved that car, but got pissed on all the time. Then I vowed to have a 911 by 27. Got married, kids, etc never happened until right before COVID. I was determined to buy the cheapest 911 body style out there. Along came this beauty. Kids both gave an enthusiastic thumbs up. Then, everybody pissed on the 996 with fried eggs and pumpkin lights, so I started to look for Litronic replacement, Hella clear side markers, and clear tail lights. After adding up non-essential aesthetics, I passed and got a Porsche SSK and Fister exhaust. I guess I get the last laugh. The two cars that share the garage are the tortoise and the hare.
Oh I didn't post a pic of my cheap 911. Not very many options, aluminum look gauges, carbon shifter and hand brake handle. I also have the 09991. That's pretty cool !
TechArt. It had basically a full TechArt kit when I bought it.
The wheels (which were trashed), Rear Spoiler I, Front Bumper I, Side Skirts I and awful headlamp covers which I yeeted right after I bought it
Thanks for pointing that out (apparently the same for the 1999). I never realized it locked the manual trunk pull. Very good to know -- I almost always leave unlocked in the garage, but now I will be sure to do so.
Makes me wonder why on Earth would they need to lock the frunk. With central locking, if somebody is already inside the car, it's security has already been breached. Even if a window is down and the car is locked, I'm pretty sure you still need to open the door to pull the frunk release lever up.
As "exotic"as that concoction looks first glance, you're right: just one bumper and two headlights (and tail lights?) away from a factory-correct early-1999
I know they're different part numbers with vastly different prices, and I've seen the differences pointed out in person before. But I've never bothered to "document" anything about the Boxster. I guess if you ever try to save a grand or two by replacing a broken 911 headlight with a Boxster unit then you can send us a pic of the devastating result!
FWIW the Cayenne and Carrera GT headlights are fairly similar too. How's that for a price disparity!?
And don�t forget: the 930 S Flachtblau headlight is
the exact same factory part number
as the lowly 944�s. For shame on Porsche "cutting corners on quality" on the $1M 930 S Flachtblau!
Agree with this -- if it's reversible now, it will be reversible later (if there is ever a time when you want to sell it). In the meantime, enjoy what you prefer. I'm a very strong zealot for originality for my own cars, but have added wheel spacers, exhaust tips, and (very appropriate looking) DIN stereo without concern because they are all 100% reversible. Best of both worlds -- love a great car even more with reasonable mods -- no originality guilt because it would take only a couple hours to put it back to stock.
Also, if you ever do a PCA concours -- they don't care about originality at all -- at least the one I participated in. As long as modifications look "appropriate" they don't care, but don't even think about having a spec of dust behind any component when you reach 2 feet into the back of the engine compartment.
Notice the lines on the reflective bottom. 986 lines are parallel. 996 lines are crosshatched. Each had the appropriate 986 or 996 part numbers.
Bootleg picture from eBay showing 996 headlight with crosshatching.
986 headlight with parallel lines below lense.
Yes that �cross hatched� part is actually a floating aluminum reflector that isn�t present in the Boxster unit, which simply has a plastic tubelike shroud surrounding the halogen lamp.
That�s at least one very evident difference obviously.
MKI Carrera is the only 996 with this additional internal aluminum reflector; even the Turbo�s MKII lights are more similar to the Boxster in this regard.
It�s very �sculptural� but not sure what functional benefit if any it provides.
Thanks
Yup. I discovered all this by accident this past spring. I upgraded several of my Boxsters from amber to clear. Like everything, headlights are getting stupidly priced on eBay and elsewhere, so I started buying what I could find (single vs pair). I have a good headlight guy in OKC that refinishes them for me. After replacing the lights on my 2002S, I stood back to admire my handiwork to see one side had parallel lines, the other had crosshatches. Pulling the lights and looking at part numbers made me realize the difference. I have one Boxster w/ clear 996 litronics, one with clear 996 litronics. As far as I can tell, there's no magic between them except the crosshatching and a different part number on the sticker.
Garrett - yes, yours are 996 lights.
I think I have those same headlights on my orange car, fortunately I put the original fried eggs on the shelf. The lighting capability of the after market headlamps is truly amazing really lights up a dark street.
Rich
THIS below is the cross-hatched & floating aluminum reflector inside the 911 unit. Quite sculptural really. Much more aesthetically pleasing IMO than the plain "ribbed" plastic shroud that is simply glued around the lamp in the Boxster. If this is the "only" difference?? I cannot say as the entire part numbered unit differs between the two cars.
However look at this pictured 911 unit below: it's a freaking work of art
Your car was custom fitted with a boatload of leather-covered dash/HVAC/speaker/trim parts. These are "Exclusive Manufaktur" special order items, that fall under the #09991 Special Wishes build category.
I think they didn�t realize the consequences? Remember though, if you don�t lock your car in the garage, it will use more power from the battery. It needs to be locked to go into low-power mode�
in other words, all the options I skip over when building my dream 992 Carrera S.
I must say, though, that those leather-covered speaker grilles are pretty sweet.
nothing trivial here
everyone knows the heat from the structure fire at the factory actually heat treated the chassis and made them more rigid, thats why they drive so well
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Bought in Oct. 2019 before the pandemic and used car market spike for under 10k. Never even had intentions of buying it....until I test drove it. I still get sh*t from my co-worker because he's the one who showed it to me and at the time I was not very found of 996s,I even told him "oh you don't want that one". The next day I was at the front desk with the used car manager starting the buying process. So now anytime we see something we want but don't want anyone else to know about my catch phrase comes into play haha. I'm glad I made the decision I did. I think I'll hold on to this one for quite some time if not forever.
What is it in the steering that makes the 99's faster? Is the the rack ending in P/N 05? The rack in my '99 has some vertical movement in it that's creating noise during suspension movement and I'm looking to get a rebuilt rack.
My aero didn’t come standard with the spats
and my “concoction exotic”is very easily reversed if or when I want it i
but in the end it’s a factory AERO
For those with the rear spats. How are they attached? Double-sided tape? sealant? Can't find anything in the autoatlanta diagrams. Looking to add an aero kit in the future but not sure about the spats yet
The urban legend of the (MY1999) 996.1 being the last hand-built 911 is just that IMO.
Even today's cars are still for the most part hand-built in final assembly.
A more valuable contribution to this thread are the pictures of the aero-kit spats that show how they are attached.
The whole automotive world went completely insane with bitter hatred of 996. Magazines with worldwide circulation actually dedicated entire sections to proving �..The 996 Will Never Be Collectible�.
Hating 996 became a decade and a half worldwide obsession.
By comparison the occasional rogue kernels of caustic sarcasm that still to this day pop up around here are a welcome relief.
The 911 always laughs last. Always has always will.
That's not the assembly line, they had all hands on deck trying to get them running -- those 99's were a handful!!!
It's great you posted the photo. I have a 2000 that I couldn't love more, but still cool to see the manual work being done on the 99's.
This pic proves that even the factory had to tape over the headlights so they didn't have to look at them!
PS: I love the 996.1 headlights, wouldn't change them if I could
The 1UZ cost like 49 Brazilian dollars to develop.
But boy it was a real lady of an engine to rival anything from Germany.
But I never forgot about Pearl Harbor and sold my SC400 once I made the connection
My 4/99 build gets comments from time to time but nothing like the 86 Zermatt silver 944 turbo with fuchs wheels I drive sometimes. The 944 turbo gets lots more attention these days.
Riddle me this:
IF
the Boxster was designed before the 996, then how was the front half of the 996 photographed being sculpted in clay by the original design team? Wouldn't the front half of the car
have
to come from the original Boxster model in order to use those same parts, as the jigs that formed the body panels were designed directly from the clay model back then; and not by CAD. Beyond this, why employ a team of designers to painstakingly slave over hand-forming a massive clay model of the entire front half of the car when the exact same model is already sitting in the closet??
Riddle me this:
IF
the 996 was so criticized for "cutting corners" by using headlights that are similar in design (but different part numbers) to the lesser cost Boxster, why was the 930 S Flachtblau Turbo not criticized for using
the exact same
headlights (
exact same
part number) as the lesser cost 944?
In fact, 40+ years later now the 930 Flatnose "square" headlight cars are actually worth about $1M more than their traditional 911 "round" headlight cousins. In large, if not exclusive part due to their strange headlights.
Ponder that one
Yes THANK YOU! Doubly-debunking the absurd myth that Chinese robots from Toyota spit plastic toy 996's out a factory machine gun.
Apparently (from the pictures) Type 996 was hand-built like a tank, by the same Germans who hand-built tanks like 911`s.
Oh, geeezzzzzzz... now there�s a conspiracy to cover up the origins of the 996 design (so as to devalue our beloved 996)... Ok, the 996 was made out of clay before the Boxster... I bet my net worth will increase now...
I didn't post the pictures, I just looked at them. How then would you explain the original design team photographed hand forming the front end of the 996 from thin air into soft clay? I'm not forming conspiracies, I'm looking at "black and white" pictures of the design team forming the 996 using sketches of the 966 Carrera design, which are hanging on the walls, and lying on the desks, directly surrounding them in the pictures.
Yes, "almost" used here leaves room for the few C4S & Mezger variants of generally, to exponentially, higher values than MY1999 (GT2 RS Clubsport, etc)
And yes "traditionally" Type 996 values have all been ruinously skewed downwards; not the least of which by mis, if not outright dis-information
The same was true for Type 964; which has recently been corrected by passage of time
It�s a conspiracy I tell you!!! There�s a Cabal that�s out to depress the value of the 996, buy up thousands of them and then release all the suppressed information about how good they really are, and make windfall profits on sales! All the while, buying BAT behind the scenes, preparing for an IPO and optioning a movie screenplay called �Wolff of Stuttgart� (btw, have you read the early press releases about the 996? Pretty glowing if you ask me...)...🙄🙄🙄
Yes
early
press was all glowing because it was unbiased and based on actually driving the car.
I don't know anything about a cabal of Stuttgart wolves. I do know Porsche's terminated CEO at the time of 996 release was arrested, imprisoned, and tried for criminal corporate fraud for leaking falsified financial documents to the press in order to lure VAG into bad-faith negotiations.
Why the press suddenly reversed course; interpreting the leaked Porsche financial documents (falsely indicating Porsche's imminent bankruptcy) as justification for pillorying the 996 as a fake-911 assembled by low-budget Chinese-robots is beyond the narrow scope of my interest.
Perhaps the automotive press also believed the falsified documents that were "leaked" to them by Porsche, just like VAG had.
Which was the point
Wow! This gets better with every post... up to 11 pages now
I�m not sure who the Pinky video is for, but yes I�ve seen it (and everything else about what is now a 22 year old car - there�s not much new out there about it). The �scandal� over trying to buy VW has been well documented through thousands of pages of court documents. The entire reason that Porsche had the cash to try to pull off that deal was because of the huge amount of Boxster/996 sales. I think your imagination is running a little wild on this stuff. The 996 iteration of the 911 is certainly a great one - better than anything that came before it. It was also quite a departure from the original design - which is what created all the derision... All the other stuff is imaginary speculation looking for a �big story�...
The problem is, back when the 996 was being modeled, the clay still had asbestos and lead filler like it should be. Today the clay they use now is probably organic gluten-free non-GMO blended with essential oil. Another reason why the '99 can never be replicated ever again.
I believe as vehicles become more and more complex a demand for simpler models will increase. This isn't limited to Porsche cars, either.
I currently own one vehicle that is new enough to have OBDII, and that's my F250 that I only use to tow military vehicles.
Everything else I own is OBDI, or earlier... Most have carburetors, and points. I repaired one of them yesterday with a fingernail file, and a business card.
Actually Porsche had more cash in 1998 than at any point in the company's history. Why? Because of 993 sales, as documented by PCA:
"
The
993
was marketed under the premise that it was $5,000 cheaper than the 964, which was possible because
Porsche was now using
new manufacturing techniques that saved money
, including changes in the materials utilized such as vinyl instead of leather, composite materials being substituted for traditional metal components, etc
. —
and the savings added up
. Another money-saving item, one that was
indicative of the
cost-cutting mindset
, was that Porsche discontinued the engine oil magnetic drain plug. This decision was short-sighted because these drain plugs collect ferrous material from the engine oil, which can be an early indicator of internal engine problems that might not otherwise be detected."
-https://www.
pca.org
/news/model-guide-type-993-the-last-air-cooled-porsche
Even Porsche admits this directly:
In the end, staking everything on the 911,
Type
993 paid off
for Porsche
. The chapter of air-cooled engines in this unique model history ended with the fourth generation of this iconic sports car in 1998. The second era then started after 35 years. It was the beginning of a time that would see
unparalleled success
. For the 911. And for Porsche. Porsche produced a total of
68,881
vehicles of the Type
993
between 1993 and 1998. -
https://newsroom
.
porsche.com
/en/history/porsche-911-seven-generations-part-4-type-993-16486.html
It was a complete and criminal fabrication that Porsche was nearing bankruptcy after Type 993. That falsehood is literally the "corporate fraud" that landed Porsche's CEO in prison.
I never heard this one before, but I have heard something to the effect of; by the end of the 993�s production run, Porsche was losing around $5k on every one they sold...
That lie was why Porsche's CEO was fired and arrested and prosecuted for fraud.
In reality Porsche was so cash rich they actually
lowered prices
for the first time in 911 history. Ironically enough, by the same $5,000 figure as was contained in the fraud.
You can't make this stuff up, but criminals can.
There is an appetite for both. If you want the sexy curves of the wide body, you will want the C4S. If you want the purest sports car driving experience, you will want the C2/6-speed/coupe. This has always been the case, but only recently has the latter been recognized by the market.
Per Wikipedia...
�His professional career began in 1983 as Director's Assistant in the Production and Materials Management area of Porsche AG in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen.
[3]
A mechanical engineer by training, he joined Porsche in 1983, aged 31. After a stint at
Wiesbaden
based Glyco AG,
[4]
a subsidiary of auto-parts maker
Federal-Mogul
, he returned to Porsche as head of production in 1991,
[4]
taking over two years later as Chairman (CEO) when Porsche was close to bankruptcy. Due to Porsche's large shareholding in
Volkswagen
, Wiedeking also found himself on the supervisory board of that company. Some industry analysts believed that Porsche could not survive on its own, but Wiedeking, who says he made his first million by the age of 30 with real estate investments, took on the challenge.
[5]
Wiedeking, then 40 years old, who with his spectacles and moustache looked like "a clerk at a venetian blinds manufacturer", according to Der Spiegel magazine, soon imposed his gung-ho management style on the workforce. Within two years he managed a surprise turnaround by trimming the product line-up, modernizing the production system based on
Toyota's
lean manufacturing system and negotiating new work rules with the unions.
Wiedeking asserted in a 2006 interview that "every product must earn money. Otherwise you are simply pursuing a hobby, which is no task for an auto-business".
[4]
By then he had dropped the unprofitable
928
and
968
models, overhauled the iconic
911
and developed two new models: the
Boxster
convertible and the
Cayenne
SUV. In 2007 the stock market value of the company rose from 300 million to 25 billion euro.
[6]
Wiedeking played a leading role in Porsche's attempted takeover of Volkswagen, which was ultimately unsuccessful although windfall gains from financial instruments linked to VW shares helped Wiedeking become the best paid executive in Germany in 2008. The bid left the Porsche holding company with debts of �10 billion, whilst Wiedeking walked away with a severance package of �50million.
[7]
After his departure from Porsche Wiedeking was charged with
market manipulation
for his role in the takeover bid.
[8]
The charges were dropped in July 2016 due to a too little chance of success.
[9]
�
Convicted of fraud ? Maybe in your mind...😉
Disinformation creates huge bargains -- has for years for the C2/6sp/Coupes. The cat is out of the bag now, but it created many years of nearly free
Porsches. Viva la disinformation.
Weideking was
never
actually convicted. He was fired by Porsche. Arrested and then bonded out of jail. Then he was tried in criminal court. End of story.
Because after twelve years of brutal litigation against his massive, multi-million dollar international defense team (remember he had been the highest paid executive in Germany for years), the German prosecutors finally agreed to drop his case, with an undisclosed agreement, in no way legitimizes or authenticates the falsified Porsche financial documents that were originally leaked to the automotive press.
Put it this way: Porsche didn't hire him back.
Edit:
Did you notice that you also published the actual truth about Porsche's near bankruptcy, but that in reality this had already taken place during Type 964 production (not 993/996):
"
..in
1991
, taking over two years later as Chairman (CEO)
when Porsche was close to bankruptcy
"
Yes Porsche had in fact been "
close to bankruptcy
" but not when Weideking leaked it, a
full decade
before. It was "
cost cutting implemented for Type 993
[Porsche's own words]" that brought Porsche out of bankruptcy, not 996.
Remember: at the time Porsche was privately held, and all it's finances were secret. All VAG, or the world, knew at that time about Porsche's liquidity was the documents that were leaked to the press. And it turns out those
numbers
were more or less correct, but the
dates
were at least ten years off. Big difference!
I agree there is a latent market for a simpler car, I doubt any manufacturer will pick up on it though. I've posted several examples of how my Macan has been the best DD I've owned from a driving perspective, but the ergonomics are the worst by a mile (several actually). The loaner 2020 loaner had only USB-C ports -- I'm all for moving forward with USB-C -- but it's been 6 years since Apple shoved USB-C down are throats and I've yet to buy a device that came with a USB-C cable. My phone was near-dead when I got the loaner, but I couldn't charge it. Why not toss us a bone and put in an old USB? Because designers are out of touch. I hated the all digital dash (instead of gauges) and now the buttons all along the center console are all "touch" buttons
. As if it wasn't enough that you have to look down while driving to hit any console buttons, now you don't even have any feel to go by. Well done! Progress!
I haven't driven any of the newest 911's, but I'm pretty sure they would drive me crazy based upon my Macan. The early 2000 - 2010 period is my favorite by far (for all cars, not just Porsche) -- they have all the creature comforts and none of the ridiculous complexity. I'll take all the safety features of modern cars, the rest they can keep.
No manufacturer will pick up on this latent need though. They couldn't even figure that maybe you just keep one old USB port in the car just in case somebody needs to connect, I don't know, any of the devices they own
.
.
I'll give a simple example of moving backwards. I'll preface this by saying I hate and avoid valet parking whenever I can, but it's not avoidable in NYC so it is a regular event.
Our 2012 Q5 key had a button you could press to remove the key remote fob and you kept the physical metal key on your keyring. It was perfect, when you valet park, you unclick the key remote fob in 1 second and hand it to them, but you kept all your keys and the valet couldn't access the glove compartment because they didn't have the physical key.
On our 2018 Macan, there is no way to remove the remote fob, you have to manually remove it from your keyring, but because the key itself is large, it's very difficult to remove. The physical key that you can use to lock the glovebox, is buried deep inside the key fob, so you have to disassemble the fob to get to it. That physical key is also tiny and very easy to lose (instead of staying on the keyring as it was with the Q5). This means that you either have to leave the entire set of keys, or fumble to remove the large key from the keyring (good luck with that). If you leave all of your keys, you are leaving your house keys (which they could duplicate when you tell them you'll be back in 3 hours), and your address is in the glove compartment, which they can access because they have the physical key buried inside the fob.
I solved most of that problem by getting a special keychain that allows one key to be detached (they still get the physical key buried inside of it) -- but why was there a massive leap backwards from the Q5 to the Macan? Obviously, those that don't live in NYC may not fully appreciate how horribly worse the Macan key is, but there are a few people who live in NYC (and other similar cities) -- not really a "niche" group.
My sister's old 1963 Sunbeam Alpine had an emergency crank, which we occasionally found handy because, well, Lucas.
Now, if they had a starting crank that would allow you to open a locked frunk, I might just add it to my "must have" list.
Corrected thru yesterday, thx!
PS
how you figured that out escapes me; all these "wender... wieder..." variants all look exactly the same to me; like Xiao Xiang, China. Or is it Xaio Xaing???
Ugh so I just used copy-paste from your post
???????? Read the post again. Or maybe for the first time. If you aren't forced to use valet parking, then you may not get it. But let's say you lived in a city area with enclosed parking garages where you have no choice but to valet, because many people do. If you don't see the difference between the Q5 and Macan key, then I can't help you.
Wow, indeed - and No, I didn�t see that video! Only 39k views.
Hearing this guy talk about how they had to pull out all stops and go all out, because he thought this could be the last shot at a 911 is crazy. Reminds me about the Intel story, or Compaq story - you have to radically change and hope and pray you got it right just to stay in business. Or go bust.
By the way, the whole �cost efficiency� design elements of the headlight and other components of the 996 are often looked at purely as a cost cutting measure with a marketing focus. But we should not forget about opportunity costs as well. For every dollar or 10 minutes saved on the assembly line could be replaced by a back-fill of something else desperately needed. Such as the active rear wing to improve downforce and lap times, or additional cooling required with the front bumper on the turbo.
Hilarious!! Lee Sibs tries
over and over again
to push the absurd: "
dark days at Porsche
", "
996 saved Porsche
" and "
bankruptcy
" narrative on Pinky and Pinky just keeps laughing at him. At one point Pinky just says: "
Look it wasn't dark days designing 996 it was fun and games
." which is the truth: Porsche was drowning in cash at that point and Pinky knew it. Lee finally gives up.
Just hilarious!
My favorite quote from the interview:
"
Of all modern 911's the 996 is the only one to capture the philosophy, the flavor, of what the classic 911 is all about
"
-Pinky Lai
That is the absolute brutal truth and I'm glad Pinky said it out loud (retired from Porsche, and immune to retribution of course).
You Tube
Most of the rest of the video is really just Pinky describing how he designed the front of the 996. Which begs straight back to the obvious question emerging from the pictures posted yesterday: how can Pinky Lai have designed the front of the 996 if the front of the 996 was taken from the Boxster that preceded it? (Grant Larson designed the Boxster, not Pinky Lai)
The answer is he couldn't have. The obvious truth is the 996 was designed first, and the Boxster was later derived from the 996. That the Boxster launched one year prior to 996 was a manufacturing sequencing issue, not a design chronology issue. Or perhaps marketing?? Porsche definitely did capitalize on the 1998 LeMans wins with the 996 launch. That would have been impossible a year earlier in 1997 (Boxster launch year) when Porsche Motorsports was campaigning their miserably failed 993 GT1. With Porsche everything always boils down to
marketing
. Whenever something (like this) doesn't quite add-up with them, always ask: "
What shrewd but nonetheless quixotic Porsche marketing maneuver would explain this?
" and that is your answer right there
Remember these are the same guys that brought you:
Classic straw man
Nobody has said they want to go back to manual chokes or starting cranks.
But plenty of people want a car without forward collusion warning, lane departure warning, automatic emergency braking, electronic parking brake, dynamic steering, automatically steering headlights, traction management, traction control, stability management, automatic transmission, active suspension management, traffic sign assist, auto stop/start, etc.
The person who has driven and worked on more 996s than anyone on here has said for years that there�s something special about early 99s.
After driving one for the last year, I agree.
Wow!
... Just waiting for the next bombshell to drop... What other mind blowing nuggets of �obvious truth� must be out there that could just shatter our entire understanding of what the 996 is, and how it fits into the very fabric of our time/space continuum...??? To be continued (I�m sure...up to 13 pages of drivel now...).
I once bought quite a few 9x6 parts off a guy here in Germany who had worked at Porsche during those years.
He explained to me that the launch order of new 911 and Boxster was changed at the very end of the 996/986 development programme in order to profit from the booming soft top 2-seater market at the time. The original sequence was to launch the new 911 first as highest in the model line-up and then the Boxster below that.
This way the 'lesser' model would use parts of and benefit from its 'better', more expensive brother and most probably no one would moane about parts sharing between the two.
The fact that all the common part numbers start with 996 are proof (in his words) that the 996 would launch first and the 986 would follow.
Fixed one bit for you. The general public, for who manufacturers build the vast majority of cars, like and want the tech and all the safety features you mentioned. Had Porsche not adapted and released their SUV and sedan there is a good chance they might be gone or in some deep deep dukie financially.
Now that BAT has finished on the car that may have triggered this thread
, have to ask -- the auction photos had a receipt for work on "Loud engine rattle noise on startup", listing 4 tensioners. Thought there were only 3 on the 3.4. Bottom for bank 1, passenger side for IMS, and PITA under the AC compressor for bank 2. Is there another one lurking somewhere?
Agree with the above (I'm fine with the safety features) and I also very much agree with the spirit of the original post. Even PSM I am happy about, specifically for the 911's. It's important to remember that Newton's laws are not favorable to the rear-engine weight bias of 911's. Porsche put 70 lbs or so of wasted lead weight in the front bumper area of 1968 911's (from memory, I think a year or two before the wheelbase extension in 1969) to try to make a truce with Newton. My 1969 (long wheelbase) 912 only bit me once -- I was going around a corner at only slightly elevated speeds, let off the the throttle slightly, and the rear end immediately kicked itself out -- not enough to cause an issue, but enough to never forget. I'm still shocked by it because I was not pushing the car at all. PSM provides the option of using technology advances to protect us from Newton's wrath -- that's a good use of tech in my mind, though the largest benefit is mostly unique to rear-engined 911's.
.
I just thought that all the complaints around "nannies" on our cars were there because most owners go power sliding though every other turn. I suppose you want to make every drive memorable during your 1500 annual miles
He also squashed the myth that Toyota taught Porsche how to build cars affordably. As per Pinky they 'only assisted with logistics to make sure parts were available when needed.'
I just don�t want the electrical and mechanical �overhead�. If I could wave a wand and eliminate the sunroof and power steering/windows/locks I would do so instantly.
Just me, but the 99�rs all seem to be the same.
Some guys love the burl walnut and the adaptive bolsters and the massage seats and the leather HVAC vents and the air adjustable suspension.. etc.
I just want a stripped 911 that weighs in like a motorcycle. Early 99 is the best water cooled start. GT3 of course but they do weigh a lot more than 99, and obviously can�t get the GT1 lighting on the GT3 in the states (yet)
I'd ditch the sunroof. I never use the sunroof in any car, but difficult to avoid them in many cases.
I do like the power steering because I honestly believe it is the combination of 300hp
and
power steering that makes the 2900lb 996 feel so light, to the point that it drives a
lot
like the late 60's/early 70's 2500 lb 165hp 911e (my favorite 911). The steering in my 1987 3.2 Carrera (which, at 2866 lbs, is almost unbelievably only 35lbs lighter than a 996.1
) was a bear at low speeds. I don't miss that heavy steering at all -- the 996 feels much better and it doesn't feel "assisted" to me (in other words, it seems to be pretty well executed).
I like the power windows and locks, heated seats, cruise and climate control because, to me, the best thing about the 996 is that it feels like a 1970's 911e, but I can drive it all day in total comfort regardless of weather conditions. Any vintage car will beat you up, which I thoroughly enjoy in measured doses, but the 996 coddles you while still feeling like a lightweight vintage sports car.
.
Well said and captures the real charm of these early water cooled 911’s.
It really does (look and) feel like a time machine, but will never overheat, doesn’t leak a drop, and won’t need an $8K top end rebuild every 35K miles
Agree with everything except I love my sunroof (Arizona starry nights). My 92 NSX lacked the power assisted steering of my 2005 NSX and it got old fast when parking.
I normally embrace technology except for some reason not in cars. It wasn't until 2007 that I owned a car with an air bag and automatic transmission and in 2016 I bought my first car with power seats.
My girlfriend just bought this and I pretty much hate it. I drove it from her house to world 996 capital Encintas, CA for lunch and was ready to hand the keys back over to her after the 3-mile drive. There is
nothing
analogue on the car. Most annoying of all was the 'feature' where the engine shuts off at red lights. I guess you can disable it but I didn't have time to go through all 27 volumes of the owner's manual.
The only cool thing about it is, that she bought from the same dealer where my 996 was first purchased 22 years ago.
And speaking of owner's manuals, I think this says it all. 1984 BMW manual and 2006 Cayenne manual(s). I can't imagine the size of a current manual.
Ha! I totally agree, we have a 2011 3 series that we love a 2003 G wagon that is set up for overlanding that we love and a 2016 Vovlvo XC 90 with all the tech that we all HATE. The Volvo will be sold in the next 30 days.
The 4 spoke wheel feels so damn tiny in your hands, I bought a 3 spoke Tiptronic one [up for trade, see classifieds] and it feels so much meatier. I've seen a lot of 993s on BaT with a 996 3 spoke unit.
I put a GTI wheel in my MK6 Golf and it's one of the best things I did.
You might want to sit down for this. There is no owners manual for the Macan. I wish I was making this up. There are just a set of videos online and a "good to know" app that sucks. They have videos to show you how to set up Bluettooth. Great, except I already knew how to do that. What I needed to know was how to reset tire pressure warning, which the videos and app don't cover. Also, there is no way to reset it, you have to find an obscure menu to change the tire size to the incorrect tire size, then drive over 15mph for 2 minutes, then set it back to the correct tire size and drive over 15mph for about 15 to 20 minutes. What I needed to know was how to clean the sunroof drains as a precaution between services -- very bad things happen if you don't -- it's not covered at all.
My sister-in-law has a GLK350. She called me up last week and says the parking brake comes on as she's rolling up to red lights, stopping the car dead short of the stopping point. Then she turns off the electronic parking brake, it happens continuously every time she pulls up to a light. Not much danger there. I look up the problem and it turns out the electronic wireless key receiver in the dashboard has a manufacturing defect where it gets weaker over time -- and if if doesn't sense a key, which it doesn't, it automatically applies the parking brake and any speed below 6mph
. That makes sense, what could possibly go wrong? I tell her to try her other key to see if it works better (thinking maybe the battery was stronger). It does work better, or at least differently, because the car no longer applies the brake below 6mph -- that's the good news, but then she couldn't shut the car off. She presses the button, it just doesn't listen. She got out of the car, and then it shut itself off.
Electronic Keys 2: The Sequel
: My wife is late for a meeting, I go to the driveway to shovel snow for her and remove snow from all the windows on the Macan. She comes out and drives off -- 3 miles down the road, she calls me saying she sees a key alert on the dashboard. That is because her keys are in still my pocket from cleaning the snow. OK, my fault, but you'd think there would be a blaring alarm so you couldn't drive 10 feet without keys without noticing. She had to drive back to pick up the keys and she was not happy. Thank god she didn't shut off the car without the key, because she would have been stranded.
This is technology today.
The 992 (even GT’s) has the infernal EPA mandated “Automatic Stop-Start” and AFAIK by law cannot be permanently disabled. So unless you remember to temporarily disable ithe “feature” every single time you start the motor, you’ll pull into the pit at LeMans for a 15 second driver switch and refuel and the motor will die. I won’t own a car with this feature which means I’m stuck for life now pre-2017 like it or not.
More like it than not
I agree 200% on this one. I spent over two decades from the 70's to the 90's as a Driveability Specialist at FoMoCo . One of the Mortal Sins of Driveability is stalls at stops, (not to mention most engine wear occurs at starts , plus wear on the starter motor), I just can't get past this and refuse to have a vehicle that stalls at stops whether intentional or not...Plus I can't afford a vehicle with such a stupid feature...
It's not a direct EPA mandate but a side effect of fleet fuel efficiency and emissions standards, right? Auto start/stop helps push a manufacturer's fleet numbers down.
At least, that's what I remember reading.
I'll be honest, as much as I hate new tech, and thought I'd hate the start/stop, you don't even notice it after a week or two. Our Macan gets a full 2 mpg better than the Q5 it replaced -- I suspect that is a combination of of start/stop and the PDK being more efficient than the Audi Tiptronic Auto.
If you hit the Sport button, start/stop shuts off automatically. There is also a direct button to turn it off, but I never do that. It does reset to being non-sport and auto stop/start each time you get out of the car, but I don't mind it being on.
The lifetime average on the Q5 over tens of thousands of miles was something like 19 on the Q5 computer (when it was older, it was in the 18's when it was brand new), the Macan has been 21.5 mpg from new. I'll take a 13% improvement on a car that is faster, slightly heavier, and even more fun to drive. Neither 19mpg nor 21.5 is very good, but that's mostly city driving -- and that's over the lifetime of the car. So you can go 13% farther on a tank and spend 13% less overall, that's not bad. I've got plenty of ergonomic complaints about the Macan, so I'm not wearing rose colored glasses, but the start/stop is ok in my book.
I'll bet they are awesome. I have never driven a modern diesel, but I know they have come a long way. I've rented diesel manual transmission cars in Europe many times, and they are awesome with torque from very low RPM, they run out of steam at about 4500RPM, but it maters little for a DD -- and the technology has come a long way since then. I strongly prefer torquey cars for daily driving versus cars that you need to rev to get any power (cough cough Subaru BRZ cough cough), so a diesel might well have been down my alley, but never occurred to me to try one. I would choose whichever one drove better, regardless of gas mileage.
One thing I haven't been able to figure out is why diesel costs as much or more than regular/premium gas. Diesel is basically very low octane fuel, so it should cost substantially less than gas. When I grew up, diesel was always half the price of gas for decades, but now it costs the same or more than gas (I think, haven't kept up on diesel prices since it's not relevant currently).
Our Macan replacement several years from now will probably be electric -- torque from 0 rpm is very attractive.
Mine too, although I did break down finally and allow the dealer to perform the 2nd "fix" last week. MPG going down steadily now. How is that a "fix"??
I believe diesel is a byproduct of refining gasoline so it should be cheap. but gas companies realized the trucking industry relied on it and is capitalizing on it
I think the shortage of electronics played a role in my specific case.
Sticker shows a $50 deduction in price for the lack of start stop inclusion haha.
420HP - 460FT/LB
Took the fitty bones I saved and blew it on care free gas doing some break in hooning �. (After I got it back from breaking a valve spring at 200 miles)
This was a great write up. Thank you.
So glad I sold my �00 cab and picked up this clean, low�er� mileage �99 coupe a few weeks ago.
During the test drive of the �99 the second I sat in it the difference in the dashboard materials was so obvious.
Yeah the "Buffalo Hyde" stuff is terrific. 24 years old and still looks factory new. No wonder they ditched it right after Ferry died, must have cost a bloody fortune. I personally prefer it even to the leather dash of my Turbo. But folks are right leather is still miles better than all the other later stuff that followed.
One possible 99 difference that hasn't been mentioned -- ultralight lug bolts. Lug bolts on the air-cooled 911's have always been crazy light. They feel like they weigh 5 grams in your hands (they obviously weigh more, but that's what they feel like). My 1987 Carrera 3.2 had them, not sure when they switched to the much heavier lug bolts typically used on the 996's. I remember a post in an old RL thread that said some of the first 996's had the lightweight lug bolts -- but don't know if that is true or not. With 5 bolts per wheel, the weight difference is pretty significant. Has anybody found the lightweight bolts on their 99?
I don�t think my 1/99 has the lightweight lug bolts. I didn�t weigh them, but they do feel just as heavy or heavier than the titanium bolts I replaced them with.
You'll definitely know it if you have them. They are crazy light. It's hard to believe they are strong enough. Maybe they weren't strong enough with 300hp in the 996.
Mine weighed 98 grams, so no, not in my case. I bought 4 new Porsche bolts so I could get rid of the locking bolts. The 'new' bolts are a slightly different design than the 1999 version and weigh 5 grams less.
In this pic, from left to right, titanium, 1999 factory version, current factory version, 1999 locking bolt.
Here are the 1999 bolt and new version next to each other (new on the left).
AFAIK yes. And draped leather is thicker and higher quality even than the Connolly standard Porsche leather. One issue with draped however is that if not kept clean the lighter colors (Graphite Grey on 996 for ex.) collect dirt and grime in the folds. But otherwise draped is a real (and costly) upgrade.
I've had lots of wheels off of 996's, there is no "light weight " hardware used on any of them, so you can put that one to bed.
As SoCal points out, somewhere around 2005 or so, the replacement bolts that started coming in were 5g lighter than the originals. This isn't noticeable until you put them side by side and see the difference in the hex drive length, but is enough to cause a vibration at high speed if the bolts are mismatched( as many have been)
EDIT
: Thanks for the correction. I'm totally wrong per your post and per
@SoCal911t
post following this one. Looked up 3.2 wheel nuts and Pelican has nuts that are steel that are recommended for replacing the original aluminum ones (
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...SABEgKRq_D_BwE
). The nuts are "closed" rather than open, so I'm certain that's why I incorrectly remembered them as bolts rather than nuts. Thanks very much for the correction, apologies for the confusion.
LOL. I wish I was creative enough to have thought that up as a ruse
.
My statement that the super light aluminum lug nuts might have come on some 1999's was from memory of an old post. I just searched and found the thread from 3 years ago. It looks like I was right that at least one 1999 had studs and the lightweight aluminum nuts (that, or
@Splitting Atoms
1999 had aftermarket studs, but seems unlikely, particularly with aluminum nuts).
Here are the relevant quotes cut and pasted from this thread =>
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-vs-mk2-3.html
Just bought this with almost no options. Can't remember seeing any build that's bare bones as this. 99" Zenith Blue with Savannah Beige. It's so beautiful.
First Porsche for me. Hope it's a nice one.
Very nice, indeed!
I was curious about the 2 options and looked them up.
424 is the A/C and 688 is CR-210 radio.
The 996 didn't come much lighter than this one 😀
My car has a 2/98 build date. I'm not sure what to make of the few options on the car. No frills for sure, but would it hurt resale value because of the lack of options? I bought it because of the color combination, not really knowing until afterwards that it had literally no options from the factory.
BEAUTIFUL!
I just got one with the same options a few weeks ago. 5/98 build date. I can�t stop smiling when I�m in it. It�s a keeper, assuming life doesn�t throw me too many curve ***** in the next few years.
My early build 99 is the uber rare “Vesuvio” purple, and was an internal Porsche “Executive” order. No options at all but the #408 wheels and a bunch of carbon fiber/aluminum goodness. Except for the sunroof the car is literally exactly how I would have ordered it from scratch myself.
. They�re two piece 18�BBS wheels. They were a dealer option, and although you see them on �99s like ours I�ve been told that they weren�t an option until �00.
Those are actually the wheels from the 1999 GT3. Like the GT2 wheels they’re not very light, but they’re very very strong.
Porsche couldn’t get the MKI GT3 EPA certified for North America at all, and GT3 lost its euro zone environmental certification in MY2000 as well. Porsche was literally swimming in these BBS wheels by 2000 from all the GT3’s they never built. So dealers were incentivized to move as many as possible on MY2K> Carreras.
Yup I edited my post to mention the “lost generation” MKI GT3 that precipitated the glut of these GT wheels. You can still actually order these wheels brand new from Exclusiv Accessories as a result.
I’m sure Porsche never intended for these wheels to wind up on standard Carreras, but once the PCNA and Eurozone markets banned the GT3 what choice did they have, but to push them out through dealers to recoup their cost.
This environmental debacle was hugely embarrassing for Porsche, who renamed the wheels “BBS Sport Design” and never marketed them as the originally designed GT3 wheel at all.
The LSD option would be desirable to have on any sports car. But from my limited knowledge on Porsche cars, I don't think many low end Carrera cars had them
LSD was optionally available on the 996 Carrera MY1999, and was standard on the 40th Anniversary.
I too have no use for LSD as I don't track 911's. Anyway, by now any original LSD will be useless. But still looks good on the sticker
Congrats on the beautiful car. Love the color. We're going to need more pictures ASAP.
Does it have a sunroof?
Based on the VIN yours was built a few days after mine. February?
Yes the car has a sunroof, I have yet to see one of the unicorns without the sunroof.
It's a 2/98 build. It's a nice driver with 89k miles. However this car has a chronic condition, RMS leaking and it was replaced 15k miles ago.
Nice! OBM is my fav color! You even got a set of coco mats?! Damn good score!! Oh and not to forget the uber exclusive and desirable �egg yolk� headlights and 4 spoke steering wheel!!! (This thing should appreciate in value daily!) - Just kidding/poking fun, but really is sweet! You�re going to love it
#408 wheels are exactly the same as the hollow spoke 993 Turbo "Technology" wheels, but in narrow body fitment, for the standard 993 Carrera. The narrower width (7.5" & 9") makes them even lighter than the Turbo's!
Part numbers for 993 option code #408 (also offered early-1999):
Front 7.5": 993.362.134.05
Rear 9": 993.362.138.00
Lightest 18" wheels ever offered by Porsche; only lighter wheels are the 992 Turbo S in Carbon Fiber at 22", for a cool $28,000.00
Yours are indeed authentic #408's congrats they're worth like $5K+, and inversely are priceless to someone with the option code and not the wheels
Sad truth is after two straight decades of 996 bitter-hatred and blind-ignorance, most of these precious BBS unicorns are probably in landfills or aluminum cans.
Interesting choice on BaT for someone in the mkt for a 99.
7/98 build, blue / beige, 1 owner, 12k miles, ending in 2 days
vs.
5/98 build, blue / grey, 4 owners, 66k miles, ending in 5 days,
but it has LSD and 408 wheels
!
Tough one? (I think Jake would pick the higher mileage car)
Another take is that quality has gone down: lots of 100K mile 1999’s with accidents on Carfaxes on BaT last six weeks or so. Like they’re clearing out a bankrupt “buy here - pay here" used car lot somewhere. Very strange.
Stranger still is that even all those 100K mile cars with bad Carfaxes still sold for $25K - $35K (w/BaT fee & taxes). Those were all $15K cars max. only two short years ago.
Ponder that!
I always thought BAT was somewhat exclusive, they won't take any car on their platform. But they probably figured out the market is huge for first time collectors looking for bargains. So now even 100k mile 996s with bad carfax makes the cut onto the platform
I'm shocked at the examples they're listing last month or two. I guess if they can still get $25K+ then they figure crank that money. This is definitely not the BaT we've known in the past. Strange days
Maybe there's some seasonal softening happening too, as well as economic uncertainty (the fear index is high). The 12K mile amber 99 only has 614 watchers with one day left.
Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about
: that 12K miles car has accidents on the Carfax
To BaT's credit there is an early-build '99 cream puff right behind it though. Perfect Carfax & low 66K driver miles. Now this is the class 911 BaT used to typically bring to the table
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...1-carrera-234/
Grey interior might hold it back some, but otherwise strong early example. Plus the #408 wheels which are astronomically rare. Luv it
First page of this thread has two lists of features:
1. MY1999 which potentially applies to all 1999 996’s.
2. Early-build ‘99 which potentially applies only to the subset of 1999 996’s with early build dates of 11/97-08/98
Simply evaluate your car against the first list, as the second list is inapplicable to you.
As for Jake Raby he often discusses highly desirable features from both lists. You cannot go wrong with MY1999 either way.
I am amazed by the notion that because a car had less options when it was built, it is somehow more valuable now as a �collectors item�... I�m not talking about specifically deleted special order items like sunroof deletes etc. - just run of the mill low optioned vehicles. Remember, if it sounds like bs and it�s smells like bs - it�s BS!
You're talking about me. My current 996 has a 5/98 build date, the 408 option code, but she parted ways with them somewhere along the way. I will never know why. Why would a previous owner do such a thing?😞
Because �she� didn�t like them... and she didn�t have this thread to inform her that they�d suddenly be the most highly sought after Porsche (BBS?) wheel ever made
...
To the uninitiated observer the ubiquitous and relatively worthless "Turbolook" solid spoke wheel version copied the BBS hollow spokes so flawlessly (except for the weight of course), that most authentic #408's were tragically discarded or recycled as garbage when subsequent customers unwittingly "upgraded" their wheels.
Only a handful of early build 996's had the rare #408 993 option, and only a fraction of those survive with the original wheels intact. It's only a matter of time now before The Porsche Museum begins featuring these astonishingly obscure aspects of the early 996 cars on social media (because that's it mission), and when it does demand for these early 996 unicorns will simply explode.
FYI
The BBS #408's trace their lineage straight to the original hollow spoke welding technology innovated by BBS for the 959. Thus the #408's were the lightest 18"+ wheels ever offered on any Porsche, until the advent of the $28,000 carbon fiber 22" 992 Turbo S wheel option last year. MY1999 was already the lightest 996. With #408's the car actually weighs in under 2,900lbs and handles magically.
In reality such a 996 is a de-facto RS; literally almost two hundred pounds lighter than the 6GT3, with 30lbs+ of that delta
unsprung
!
You have an early-build '99 "stripper". The de-facto 996 RS.
IE: No TC (Traction Control) + No OBC (On Board Computer) + BBS #408's.
This is a "holy grail" of analog 996's. A driving experience that will surprise even an ardent MKI GT3 owner. These cars are rarer than rare. Much rarer than the GT's. Folks don't believe this.
Yet
.
It's not at all about "lack of options". It's about
lack of nannies
plus the
ultra lightweight wheels
.
apples to apples is the wheel weight of these hyper exclusive "ultra lightweight" wheels that define the characteristics of the car
and they're 4 pounds heavier than a wider wheel off an american car
thats pretty pathetic lol
driving an early 99 build with wheels that are actually lightweight
for me there is no benefit, because I don't care
I was just expecting sub 20lb wheels for all the hype you give them, but now I realize why you never actually post the weights
????
I'm happy to post the weights you just never asked:
Code 408 18" Technology Design Wheels [1996]
Front; 7.5J X 18 H2 ET 50.0,
18.95 lb
Rear; 10J X 18 H2 ET 65.0,
23.36 lb
http://www.944racing.de/wheelweights.php
I bought mine thinking they were fairly reliable (at least through the lense of a german car) but this forum makes me think my car is probably on the verge of exploding at 63k miles
makes the 2500$ coil repair on the CL65 I was cross shopping seem entirely reasonable.
Guys look it's the most reliable 911 as long as you don't rev past 3500, it's a WET SUMP
this forum is a joke full of posers who couldn't rub two pennies together lol
I'm gonna go take my older than a 996 Gixxer out for a rip. Probably do a burnout and a wheelie or two. Let me know when your 996 can handle similar abuse
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/2000x1504/417bf31f_74dc_4bb9_8e14_7687bf1acd2e_832657831be6dac0d6194fd079cddf50bc327378.jpeg
I just picked up my 99 996. Zenith Blue, with the only option being the sunroof. No TC, no LSD, no OBC, no idea what wheels it came with as mine came on the aftermarket ones (old FK I believe, maybe). It's got a couple goodies added on including rear flares. It's gonna be a fun toy. Oh, it's a 10/98 build.
I just figured out what is going on here. Dbronsick is trying to GameStop the value of early 996s by hyping them up online and hoping everyone else will go bullish on them.
DIAMOND HANDS, RENNLIST BRETHREN. TO THE MOON!
Listen pal I already got diamond hands and an ape on AMC
Why don't you ask others how their apple stock is they bought in 1936 ?
Also go burn the tires off your 996
I couldn't possibly agree more. For the few options that dramatically affect weight and driving feel, it is absolutely valuable for a purist to
not
have them, but I can only think of 3 -- cab, tip, awd.
For all other options that don't (significantly) affect weight or driving feel, the more the better as a general rule. Full leather makes your time in the car significantly more enjoyable, so does 3 spoke (for me at least) -- I relish those tactile driving environment improvements almost as much as the real driving feel improvements from coupe/6-sp/2wd.
TC and PSM are good things to have because you can turn them off with a switch any time you want. Most people, however, are better off leaving PSM and TC on for normal driving, and especially in inclement weather, because the laws of physics are still very much a reality in a rear-engined 911. Porsche stuffed 80 lbs of totally useless lead in the front bumper of late 60's 911's for a reason. Newton's laws have not gone out of fashion, nor are they likely to. If you want to channel your inner Schumacher - turn the assists off, but the best default for 99% of people is to have them on for the reasons stated.
What tangible benefits are their from not having OBC? I get the general concept of thinking it's a stripped-down sport model -- but the largest benefit of the 996, by far, compared to any other 911 model -- is that it absolutely has the very lightweight driving feel of a pure sports car while it also coddles you in luxury. That lightweight luxury is the "secret sauce" of the 996 versus any other 911 model - stripping it of luxuries that don't have weight penalties takes away from what inherently makes the 996 so great (in my opinion).
I'm all for sunroof delete, and 408 wheels sound awesome (and I suspect you feel the weight difference because of the rotating mass). Other than that, more options = more gooder (in the general case, there are probably individual exceptions).
All subjective. My 1999 has all the carbon fiber and full leather/memory seats options I wish it didn't. Simpler the better but that's just me. FWIW I really don't care for the plateaus of plastichrome buttons, 4K touchscreens, 360-cameras, stopwatch-orbs, and "whatnot" on 997 & newer models. Even my "luxurious" 1999 is (thankfully) a light-year behind all this post-997 consumer driven social media interface nonsense (not to mention: sport chrono, PASM, active bolsters, air conditioned massage cushions, lane-change assist, auto-start/stop, etc. etc. etc).
And like you not a fan of sunroofs either, but we have the 1960's to thank for that one; you'd think those would have gone the way of cigarette lighters by now
Yes
: the 911 ECU is always present, of course, since 1972.
However no
: the driver-aid specific "OBC" functions and ("newfangled" or "futuristic" whichever your beliefs may be) gauge computer display were not available early-1999 without having selected the #659 "Board Computer" (OBC) option, that activates these driver-specific select-able functions via the specific OBC stalk installed lower-left side of the steering column. This 4th OBC stalk is actually missing on all early 996's not containing option #659; that's the fastest way to spot a rare "no-computer" early '99.
That said, these same ECU functions are alternatively accessed on early cars by installing a functioning button into any blank, and wiring into the OBC pathway on the ECU; and as you mention DIY are relatively simple and searchable on these forums.
I'm with you in spirit. I've posted several rants about the inane design decisions in my Macan. The stupidity in many design decisions in modern cars can absolutely drive you bonkers, while at the same time the Macan is the best driving (non sports car) DD I've ever had. The same is true with the BMW X3 I rented a couple years ago.
Back in the 996 era, the design decisions were very good and made total sense. TC and PSM, should be on by default. There are practically no electronic nannies. The only really stupid design decision was the electric frunk (and the even more stupid fact that cable-operated frunk cam still being locked out if battery dead and car is locked).
I just don't see anything at all overbearing about the 996 or really any early 2000's car. You can go back to earlier air-cooled 911's if you want a more pure experience, but you'll probably miss the luxuries pretty quickly for any regular use or anything other than short-ish pleasure drives.
996 didn't just bring more luxuries, it brought much more interior legroom. I'm 6'-4" and never sat comfortably in any air-cooled 911. I couldn't go back even if I wanted to: just way too cramped in there, and the AC sucked!! Summers in FL were absolutely unbearable, even in 993. AC in the 996 is like a meat locker: night and day difference.
Actually early-1999 also had the option to delete Traction Control (TC), and since that was before PSM, this renders early-1999 the only water-cooled 911 with no-nannies or driver's aides whatsoever. These "true" no-nannies cars are astronomically rare too. So it's not about "inconvenience" of turning TC off. It's about the scarcity of the few cars actually optioned without it, or anything else like it.
Look, once a 911 is several decades old the only way it can complete is with what it doesn't have. Because what it does have has been hopelessly outmoded.
Just look what no-radiator or Varioram/cam has done for 964 prices!!
Bottom line: 1990's TC vs. 2020's Sport-PASM is an absurd metric. But,
a completely NO-nannies water cooled 911 is unique. That's the essence of Classic 911 collecting. Finding the unicorns.
OBC was available without the stalk on early 99's. My car is a 7/98 build and it came with the PCM which had all the display options of the OBC available.
Too bad a �99 with LSD required TC and ABD as options. Would be cool for a no-option early �99 with LSD and that�s it. Not sure that would be super rare or have higher value, but it would fit the no-nanny bill.
This I can't agree with at all. There are no downsides to TC -- it weighs nothing, it can save your a** since Newton is against all 911s, and it can be turned fully off by just hitting a switch. Rarity for the sake of rarity does not create value in my opinion. Absence of TC does not create tangible value while owning it (it's the opposite of that I would argue) or financial value in selling it. It's true that there are probably a few niche buyers who might want a stripper 996 for purity's sake, but there is a much larger general market will want the options that add subjective and/or objective value while they own the car (as long as those options don't have any downsides).
Not all things that are rare are good. Some of them are rare specifically because they weren't the best choice.
My 2000 has PSM but no TC (I'm not sure what was offered in what years for either option). I'm very glad it has PSM and that is on by default, especially when my wife is driving it.
Classic 911's are desirable in one very real sense for their historical lack of technology. And without question, and for better or worse: TC-delete removes a layer of "computer technology" from the physical experience of driving the 996. A factory option such as this, especially given it's rarity, unquestionably adds collectible value on the Classic 911 market.
IE the older a 911 gets, the more 911 collectors want to see technology missing.
That's a static metric I've never seen overridden in over 20-years of watching this stuff very closely.
That is precisely because, with LSD, on a
rear-engined car
, it is a
LOT
easier to get into trouble hitting the gas, for example, on a wet corner. You cannot ignore Physics with any 911. Newton's laws have not budged. Without LSD, one rear wheel is always tracking on the road so it's difficult to get into trouble. With LSD, both wheels can spin on the wet surface with too much throttle -- and that, combined the pendulum physics of rear weight bias, can cause very bad things to happen. That intentional restriction on options is designed exactly correctly.
You are looking at the wrong era. In the 2000's designers made very good decisions 99% of the time. It is only the current flock of designers that have completely lost their mind and base almost nothing in their design decisions on real-world experiences.
I still have the unit but removed it for the GT3 delete. It is option 662 on the sticker and it was a $3,540 option. It also had a laser/disc unit mounted above the HVAC in the lower part of the front console.
Wow that is the oldest PCM installation I�ve ever seen. Amazing. Can you possibly detail how you converted to single DIN radio and HVAC relocate after the GT3 delete?
I just removed the double DIN frame and replaced it with a single DIN frame that is also the same frame that held the lower laser unit. Part # 99364517300. I replaced it with a rebuilt CDR-220 from Becker. Lots of bloody knuckles routing the HVAC from the lower position to the top position.
I removed the double DIN frame from the top that held the PCM and replaced it with the single DIN frame from the bottom that held the laser unit. I then mounted the CDR-220 in the single DIN frame. I also needed to replace the upper support from #99655213104EJK to #99655213105EJK since the PCM had it's own upper support. This allowed the HVAC to be mounted on top along with the single DIN radio frame.
I am looking to purchase a MY1999 but it has TC (and ABR). Is it possible to disable the TC or is it embeded
in the cars operation?
Although it could be an absolute mistake, I plan on getting one with a Tiptronic to be a daily driver in town and touring.
If I got another one, I would get a Tip one - for my Costco trips and around town. And then my daughter could drive it and I wouldn’t have to go out and get an auto 928. But a 928 does sound good to add to the stable.
You can temporarily disable Traction Control by pressing the "TC" toggle on the center console; but Traction Control will always re-enable itself at startup. MY1999's without Traction Control (or any other nannies) are out there, but they're few and far between.
So I am looking at a 996 (also because of price) in this same color scheme (need a light colored interior where I live) and my first car, purchased in 1986, was a �72 914 (in Saturn Yellow). However, my off road vehicle is a �99 Explorer (218K mikes and still going). I gave the 914 to my nephew last year and really miss it.
Interestingly, there are two MY99 996 on BaT in this color scheme at the present, one with Tip and one 6-speed. I am struggling with which one to bid on. The 6-speed does not have the TC option but the other does. The one with the Tiptronic has the 4-spoke, leather wrapped steering wheel (much preferred) but 105K miles and much wear and tear while the one with the manual has the three spoke (not a fan) with only 30K miles.
I am a bad decision maker�I see to many pros and cons. However, after read this thread, I am set on getting a MY99, and maybe hold out for an early MY. Of course, a Turbo would be the ultimate, in my opinion, and is/was what I really want.
If you are looking for a 996 (because of price), then the Turbo model won't work for you. They are very expensive right now. However I believe the Turbo model will retain it's value much better than a regular 996. So maybe you should just spring for the Turbo, it's like putting money in the bank.
They theorized that about the 964 Turbo too, and just look what happened.
The GT1-based 3.6 Mezger of the 996 Turbo inhabits another realm of Porsche Motorsports history many strata of 911 greatness above the rather pedestrian, and road-car based 930/964/993 Turbo.
I's pretty darn unlikely the 996 Turbos will ever be cheaper than they are now. Obviously five years ago they were a lot cheaper - that ship has sailed. If that's what you really want waiting is only going to make it more expensive. I would not be surprised to see low mileage 996 Turbos at $100k next fall. Heck my 180k mile 996 Turbo has probably doubled in value in the 15 months I've had it.
I�m all for being corrected if I�m wrong, but I just don�t see 996.1 selling for very much. 996.1 including the 99 model year sell for pretty low on the market even as of right now. Honestly the only two 996s I see really increasing are the C4S, and turbos.
I thought BD was a bit crazy until I drove one myself. If I didn't have a GT3, I'd be buying an early 99. The C4S has always been relatively spendy for what you get. Look at the rate of change of prices, not the absolute value. MY99 cars will do quite well, the C4S will always be handicapped by Turbo values.
I totally agree. 996 good beginner car to see what owning a Porsche is like, then get scared off of any Porsche product after an IMS or Bore scoring issue comes up on 20+ year old car
I�m trying! But I just can�t see it, some are still going for under 25k. Also I disagree with your C4S statement. It�s a NA car with what I think�s a better body style than the turbo. The C4S isn�t the wannabe turbo. It�s a wide body awd NA 911 with upgraded brakes and suspension, and I totally think the market feels the same way!
997.1 bore scoring. 997.1/.2 PDK issues that are potentially $20k hits to the wallet as they fall out of warranty. Handful of 991's with engine stumbling issues around 2-3k RPM range (some cured via TB, but still an issue PCNA won't address). All of these issues will become more prominent as the years go on.
IMSB on a 996 is an easily resolved issue regardless of single/dual, but if you have an early dual it shouldn't get a second thought. Bore scoring anything with the later 3.6L is possible, 3.4L not.
Early cars with the 3.4L dual row are truly the great beginning of Porsche water cooler era, and it only lasted a very short period of time. Factor in whatever "specials" and it will just make it that much more special as more and more head to the scrap yard.
It won't be all early 996's, but those kept in great order will never go backwards. How far forward is only going to be known as time stretches its legs.
I am talking about cars with 40k miles, not absurdly low miles in the single digit thousands. Obviously a Speed Yellow Turbo S is going to command a premium, I expect commodity colors like silver/black or black/black will be pushing 100k. Buy it now, or probably never again.
That�s awesome!
What�s �special� about the early �99s is difficult to describe but it�s apparent when you drive a nice example.
And right now unless it has an aero kit it�s still the lowest priced 996.
There is a lot of talk about IMS and Bore scoring, but very little talk about the weak 6 speed transmission. Mine occasionally will pop out of 2nd when I downshift, it won't do that when I go from 1st to 2nd. From reading posts online, this seems to be a weak link on these Porsche cars
Ive never known any 996 6-Speed transmission to be a �weak link�. They do require proper warm up or as you mention lower gears can be difficult, especially in cold weather.
Some 964’s are still going for under $35k too. And some 964’s are also going for seven figures. The low end of the 911 market has no bearing on the collectibles. As for the 4S its a great 911, but it will always be a wet-sump road car. The 996/997 Turbo with its GT1 derived dry-sump Mezger is another entire category altogether; the two cars aren’t even comparable. IE some Mezger variants will trade for seven figures someday. The 4S might barely top out at $100K.
A Porsche 911 transmission is quite durable and sturdy, but requires a deliberately empathetic operator, or else the synchros will wear out. It�s been this way for decades across multiple generations of 911s.
People forget the 4S was a much higher original entry point than the Carrera: $80k+ vs. $60k+
So for the typical 4S to now only fetch a $10-$15K premium is actually a net gain for the Carreras; and the up and coming Early-1999 will definitely soon close, if not reverse that gap
There are also many thousands more 4S than MKII Carreras. That is not commonly known either.
The Mezger Turbos will see unprecedented appreciation into any foreseeable future. That said, no Classic 911 has ever, or will ever, lose value. Especially and particularly not Type 996 Carrera
I don't disagree with this at all. I was just making that initial statement based off "the c4s will always be handicapped by the turbo". There two different animals you're absolutely right, but what porsche did was give the c4s its own distinctive styling which puts in into a category of its own. IMO
@bdronsick
I just bought the Vesuvio 996 on BAT, and all the information you've provided here and on the BAT comment section is incredible. Just wanted to say thanks (even before I introduce myself on the new members thread).
Sure thing! I've been obsessed with these cars for almost two decades. They really are the first and last in so many 911 respects. To score a Vesuvio unicorn is priceless. Congrats!
This has been covered before, but I would love to hear your opinion about warm up. Which do you think is better?
- with my last 996 a 2000 cabriolet, during 3+ years of ownership I always let the car idol for about two minutes until the RPMs settled around 800, and then I�d drive.
- with my recently acquired �99 coupe (5/98 build) I�ve been driving it right away and keeping the RPMs below 3,000 for about 5-10 minutes.
thank you!
Make sure the windows are up and the HVAC is off. Rip a juicy one and inhale deeply for 30s. Then drive.
Best thing to do is just drive it and not get on it until oil is up to temp. Nothing complicated.
Looking forward to clarification from you on this. Three subsequent comments from others on this thread saying to drive it immediately at low RPMs. Are you saying that doing so will cause avoidable wear to the timing chain pads? If so then what should one do upon start up in the morning?
Let's not forget that the 1999 has the beautiful svelte silver crest on the steering wheel!!!
Oh WAIT, THAT'S THE 2000 model
(<=== best if read using "dissing your dog" sarcasm voice)
You Tube
I was only joking -- with all the talk about the exclusive features on the 99's, I thought I would toss out the one thing that was unique to the 2000 996's. Most of the 2000 996's came with a silver crest on the steering wheel instead of a colored gold crest, supposedly to mark the millennium. Silver crests were a bit of a rage briefly on RL, with some claiming the silver crest was ultra rare and valuable, and with some colored crest owners wanting to swap in silver. I thought it was a silly discussion. My 2000 has a silver crest and I'd actually prefer that it had the standard gold/colored crest.
I guess the joke about "2000 exclusivity" was a little too subtle, but I intended it as a joke.
Lousy picture, but all I can find at the moment. I'll try to take a better one when I have time. I don't know about 4-spoke or what criteria there was for the silver crest. I think the general thought on RL back when it was a bit of a hot topic was that Porsche did it to recognized the millennium and that all 2000 cars had them -- but there seemed to be exceptions to that.
Well, if someone can discover some historic or performance aspect from Porsche Motorsports for the silver crest we can hail it as a collectible feature.
I think the general approach to minimizing wear is to get the engine up to full operating temperature as quickly as possible, with sufficient oil pressure, and without stressing the motor. All 3 are best achieved by driving off immediately, keeping revs well above idle and in the most stress-free zone (e.g. not lugging or over-revving) -- probably the 2000 to 3000 RPM range -- until the engine is fully warm. Bear in mind that, in many cars, oil temperature often takes longer than coolant to come up to full temp -- so fully warmed coolant temp does not necessarily mean the oil is fully warmed (and you don't really want to run the car hard until the oil is fully up to temp). I don't have a view to oil temp on my 996, so maybe somebody can comment on how quickly oil temp rises relative to coolant in the 996.
Along the lines of "fastest safe warmup", in my Q5 and Macan, on very cold days (sub 20 degrees), when you can hear and feel that the engine is tight from being so cold, I always switch to "sport" mode to warm it up. I drive it as normal, but in sport mode so it shifts around 3k, so the engine warms up the engine much faster and at much happier RPM's.
Without doing that, most modern cars with 7, 8,10 speed transmissions are tuned to shift at insanely low RPM (like 1500 rpm) to conserve fuel-- that's fine for normal circumstances -- but it is the worst possible warmup for the engines in extremely cold temps because it is lugging the engine when it is very tight from the extreme cold, and it is lugging it for a much longer period of time because it takes a much longer time to warm up the engine in with those very low RPM shifts.
I'm kind of surprised they don't temporarily change the RPM mapping during warmup in extremely cold temperatures -- they already have logic to block off the radiator flow on the Macan when cold, so changing the RPM mapping briefly during warmup would be easy to do.
OBC can simply be turned on by using a Durametric. And you can cycle through all the functions by adding a toggle switch (outside temp, avg mpg, miles to empty). Without a toggle switch or adding the 4th stalk, the OBC will show the outside temp.
I think you can used the oil pressure gauge to indicate the oil temp. As the oil warms up, the pressure drops from 5 down to 4 and then eventually down to 1 at idle.
I dont don’t think you even have to turn it on. The early cars with no OBC but PCM will still display the OBC functions on the media screen from the factory. Of course that’s a rare sight indeed: PCM and no OBC! But I’ve seen it
For me anyway the “no OBC” thing is about lack of digital “computerized” clutter on the dash gauges, which augments the vintage feel.
You sit in a 997 and there are five hundred digital readouts across a landscape of media screens. It’s freakin Bladerunner in there. And of course 991 is a space shuttle.
I just want to drive and hear the 1998 LeMans drivetrain scream. I couldn’t care less about Spotify, CarPlay, Weatherbug, etc...
My Turbo thinks it’s 2002 because the satellite feeding the PCM went dead two years ago. Not losing sleep
You can just feel when the engine oil gets warm. What used to be pedal pressure / time to shift at 3k is now the same pedal presure / time to shift at 4k and so one and so on. Use the force and you will be fine.
As a general rule, I give it another 5 minutes ish from when the water temp is at full operating temp until I feel the oil has reached 180 degrees, the anything goes point for me. It also depends on what oil you are using, race oil, street oil etc. Not all oil gets up to temp the same way / time.
I have PCM and no OBC. But unless I'm mistaken, the only thing OBC adds is that you get the fourth stalk, and you can toggle the dash readout. The computer is still there. So it doesn't matter much and there have been cases in which a km to empty readout would have been helpful.
In a 996.2, the dash is different and displays messages, which makes it feel more digital. I also vastly prefer the .1 dash because the arcs from the gauges perfectly intersect with the displays; this is lost on the .2 and Turbo dash.
Ha, isn't that exactly the feeling that you're looking for when you step into a vintage car: that it's a time machine bringing you back to the year in which it was built?
Exactly, imagine some sort of mechanical calendar on a 1964 911 dashboard, frozen on 1963. Priceless
All these countless weird quirks about 996 that retired Beverly Hills plastic surgeons hated in the 2000�s, will wind up making these weirdos the absolute most collectible 911�s in Porsche history someday.
It�s inevitable
All this talk about airbag crest has revealed that the 993 4-spoke steering wheel was actually standard until MKII, so we removed its reference on the MY1999 page. Hope this didn’t cause any confusion, but we’d never actually seen (or heard of) a 4-spoke on a later car; apparently a few are really out there (somewhere??).
If you have a MY01 w/4-spoke we’d love to see a pic!!
If I need to back my 2000 out of the garage and park it in the driveway, before I park it, it gets a 5 - 10 mile ride before it gets parked. Yes - it's a garage queen.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/498x280/150ce003_d974_464b_b8ff_9a2010a34f29_2cc00ea57a0af2bba476ab332b1241e4a3edf172.gif
Compared to others here I'm a neophyte, but I've def felt after temp gauge is up to temp there's a few more mins before she's turning gyroscopically smooth. But I have to ask, since you pbly didn't own your cars since new, and pervious owners pbly didn't warm the car up properly for years, what's the actual failure scenario look like? Parts, cost, reparability?
If the car car is running well it�s a clean slate at that point. You make your own million mile future in any 911. 996 will probably end up the 2nd most durable gen after the Mezgers
^^^This^^^ couldn�t be more untrue! There are several ways that sellers can trick an unsuspecting buyer into thinking that the engine is quiet and �smooth as silk�... There are literally hundreds of threads here that outline buyers who suddenly have noisy engines after weeks or even days... Do your diligence - read up on the potential problems and their warning signs. Knowledge will not only save you money when buying but it could save you from a costly rebuild in the future.
I�ve received THREE tickets since Thanksgiving Day where people have selected the category �I just bought a Porsche, and need help� where they explain sounds, symptoms, and in one case a complete engine failure. The longest these cars were owned were 3 months, with one being bought just last week.
People still refuse to carry out the �hassle� of invasive PPIs, and other in- depth inspections. They will continue to offer stimulations to the economy, at their own loss of money, and stress. Inspect the damn car. Pay no attention to mileage, service records, or ownership.
The car is guilty until proven innocent. Period.
No one that has my approach stated above loses the money, or deals with the stress. It just doesn�t happen.
��running well� refers to post-purchase condition, not pre-purchase inspection. He already owns the car in question.
Beyond the reference at hand, I�m certainly not advocating forgoing due diligence on any used car purchase; especially on a wet-sump 911.
While there is no way to hide bore scoring or falsify cam deviation, my mantra is always �Buy the Seller� regardless.
I don't worry about failure scenerios. Life is too short. I drive my cars guilt free. If it stops working or breaks, I fix it. I'm a simple man though. I know owners who don't redline cause they feel it can't take it. Give me a couple redlines everytime I drive it. At least one.
Problem is the seller could very well be a nice guy selling a piece of sh*t car.
"Running well" is determined at the conclusion of a pre-purchase inspection and from someone that has a proven track record with the Porsche 996 and M96 engine.
It's been more than 15 years since we've had it, and I rarely drove it (wife's car), so I forgot all about trunk release being electronic.
I did not like the Tip or AWD. Those options were awesome in snow and in NYC traffic as a year-round daily driver, and my wife LOVED the car, but they took all the fun out of driving it for me.
Close-up of electronic trunk controls (poor quality from mega-zoom):
�nice� has nothing to do with it IMO.
If the seller is not a reliable known, then assume the worst:
in
addition
to standard PPI
run DME for rev report & cam deviations, pull both the sump and oil filter to inspect for ferrous metal, and bore scope every single wet-sump Porsche motor (yes DFI) over 3.4L
Additionally, bore scope any size wet-sump Porsche motor with any external evidence of bore scoring; although the 3.4L & smaller M96 are relatively immune to this growing phenomenon, there have been
a few
isolated occurrences with the 3.4 reported here.
This is a bare minimum.
Why must you share that you did the exact upgrade I�ve been debating about for the last week? 🤔🤔
Frankly I don�t know why I think this is worth doing. Why is it worth doing? 🙏
Yup, but I have owned 3-wet sump 996 3.4’s with almost 400K miles combined and zero bore scoring. And thru IG I interact with almost a hundred or so 3.4 owners prob twenty+ million miles combined and zero bore scoring. And in almost twenty years on Rennlist I’ve only come across one guy who said his 3.4 was bore scored. Not saying I don’t believe him but one guy in twenty years is like you know
Jake
@Flat6 Innovations
in your experience would you characterize the frequency of bore scoring in the 996 3.4 with respect to the larger 3.6/3.8 wet-sump 996/997 displacements as:
1. 3.4 Much greater than 3.6/3.8
2. 3.4 Somewhat greater than 3.6/3.8
3. 3.4 Equal to 3.6/3.8
4. 3.4 Somewhat less than 3.6/3.8
5. 3.4 Much less than 3.6/3.8
6. Bore scoring is
relatively
unheard of in 3.4
It�s a legitimate question about the prevalence of bore scoring in the 3.4 engine.
Something that�s of interest to owners and prospective buyers of 996s with the 3.4.
So he asked the one person who�s most qualified to answer the question.
And that�s your response?
I�m starting to think the movie Idiocracy was a documentary.
Between MKI Lokasil-I's demonstrably better durability vs MKII Lokasil-II, and given less heat, less stress, & less vibration present in the smaller displacements: it's a
rhetorical
question
Case in point:
"
We do not know when Lokasil 2 replaced Lokasil 1 but from the
evidence of scoring and lack of cracking it looks like it might have been after the 3.4
996 engines"
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...1-engines.html
IE
: The 3.4 is more prone to bore
cracking
due to rapid heat cycling, while the 3.6/3.8 is more prone to bore
scoring,
due to Lokasil-II coating breaking down over time.
AND
while the 3.4 issue can theoretically be mitigated by proper warmup, the 3.6/3.8 issue is considered, by multiple knowledgeable sources, to be unavoidable in the later cars affected; which is apparently a
random
occurrence based on original silicon molecule distribution, and not solely related to proper warmup.
IN
other words not all 3.6/3.8 will be affected, this is why we infer the 996/997 bore scoring prevalence spectrum from the Hartech research to be:
3.4 < 996 3.6 < DFI < 997.1 3.6 < 997.1 3.8
(the DFI motor breaks the apparent HP gradation pattern due to it's closed-deck design).
THUS figuratively speaking at least all 996's are on the right side of that metric
Followup:
Apparently as Hartech indicated, Lokasil-I use was prohibited by EU environmental regulations enacted sometime early 2000's
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...t=1320349&i=60
So at least it wasn't a cost-saving measure, like the MY2K> IMSB debacle. So the use of Lokasil-1 on 1999-2001 3.4L was simply covered, or at least "grandfathered", under the previous regulations. Fortuitous, to say the least.
IMO the three spoke wheel feels and looks a lot better. Especially if your can find an airbag with leather stitching. I overpaid for mine in graphite gray, but haven�t regretted it at all
says the guy that voted for President Dwayne Camacho
let me know how many people it sways to read bore scoring may be "somewhat more prevalent" on one engine over the other
Bore scoring has no prejudice. While the earlier engines (3.4) with Ferrostan skirt coating held up better than those with Ferroprint coating, time has done its thing, and leveled the playing field.
Today I see just as many scored 3.4s as we do later engines,
BUT that's also being impacted by the boom in the popularity of the early 996. This boom landed more 3.4 engines here for the 2022 season than we've had in a decade. The same has rang true with the Q1 2023 completion schedule, where 2/3 of the proposed work that has been "locked in" comes from 2001 and older 996s. This exceeds the 997.1 as well, which until this year had been dominating the failure/ reconstruction schedule.
I performed an invasive PPI for a local buyer 6 years ago for a 2000 996. The cylinders were scoped top to bottom, from both the sump and the spark plug holes, with photo and video documentation. We performed a UOA as well. At that time the engine had 28K miles, and received a clean bill of health. The purchaser did buy the car, and has since logged 27K miles in those 6 years. It was just conclusively diagnosed with Stage III bore scoring, which has manifested during these 6 years/ 27K miles. This was just reported last night, so I do not have any further details as of yet.
Good to hear this "breaking news" update. Took 20+ years for this information to begin to emerge; which is obviously the difference between the 3.4 v 3.6+ coatings as you & Hartech indicate. And the newer fuels/detergents/+ethanol is likely at play as well, as Hartech suspects. I look forward to these recently discovered smaller displacement owners eventually posting here and hearing mileages/fuel/oil histories etc. In the meantime
I wonder if running ethanol free gas would be beneficial?
I can tangentially report on my previous 1999 with almost 200K on original drive train when sold I ran top tier 93 & changed 0W40 M1 @3K religiously (as on all my cars). Thanks
Only in the sense that you'd see (potentially) less injector sticking/failure & marginally less cylinder wall washing as your overall fluid injected per cylinder is lower with non-E fuels.
Hartech does mention fluid wash as a potential major contributor to bore scoring; why I'm asking thanks sounds like a great idea only marginally more $$ if helps prevent or postpone bore scoring super well worth it
It doesn�t matter to me which version of the M96/M97 engine suffers more or less from bore scoring when, at this age and mileage, the bores on any 911 engine can and will see wear. That�s what Porsche 911 engines do - wear out. They are built to have the highest performance and lightest weight and not last a million miles. They always have. These are not 400,000-mile engines unless that�s a highway car. In which case they will easily run that far.
Anyone buying a 20 yr-old 911 with any miles on it �should� have some bore wear at this stage in life. The engine will need to be rebuilt sooner or later. Maybe the early 3.4 engines are less prone, but I don�t think that�s a huge reason they are special. They are special because it was a car built in a prior century, the first of the 911 water cooled, the lightest 911 in decades, and those weird headlights, no glovebox, and a cable throttle.
My understanding of bore scoring in the 996 is that it is the result of excess heat events causing the cylinders to go slightly out of round, causing scoring in the narrower portions of the cylinder. It is a fast demise after that because round pistons are moving in a not perfectly round cylinder. Based upon that, I would think that occurrence of bore scoring would depend more about the frequency, intensity, and length of extreme heat events over the lifetime of the engine then it is about time or miles.
Yeah all the previous 911 gens had their idiosyncratic modes of failure, and the market overcomes them all. You buy one fixed or you buy one and eventually fix it. Nikasil sleeves looks like the way to go on M96; gets you darn close to Mezger durability
Buy hey until something goes wrong I'm just gonna drive. Been two decades and these 996's just keep going
Yeah, I don�t remember when the valve guides issue popped up on the cars that came after the SC. I think the 3.2 Carrera in the mid to late 80�s were sometime prone to needing top-end refreshes because of the guides, but the bottom ends were fine.
Shifting gears now, in keeping with this thread�s spirit, I think hard drive capacities in 1999 were between 8-14GB, which is what most laptops have for MEMORY(!) these days. 😁
Pretty much most European sports cars come with quirks and **** that needs to be addressed at some point, especially as they age. There are 997 folks having to spend $25k for a replacement PDK.
Here's the deal, I usually stop when the seller says things like "It's NEVER seen rain" or... "Only highway miles"... or "the metal was mined by the germanic elves during a full lunar eclipse where Ferdinand Porsche was laid to rest."
Not throwing shade either but I remember when 1990 C2 were avoided like the Black Death plague because they leak like a sieve; I know my 89 C4 did. You either split your motor or go through an awful lot of disgusting cardboard
Maybe change the title to what makes the 1999 different..
When some people read the title now, they apparently get offended and run for their safe space.
@Zenith
Wow...what a beautiful 996. What site did you find it on? I’m constantly looking around and want to make sure I don’t miss a source
Thanks in advance!
Buying all the 996's, thus reducing available inventory, shooting prices into the sky. We're in the wrong thread, this should be in the prices drifting up one.
Even original IMSB and no service records cannot transport you that far back in time. Dude you’re partying like it’s 2017 all over again. If that’s not a multi-accident / salvage title I’m literally speechless 😶
That is literally the going market 996 C2 price when “Why The 996 Will Never Be Collectible” hit the newsstands. You should get that back issue from Road & Track and frame the article for car shows.
Steal of 2021 congrats!!
You’ve given me new hope a $50K Speed Yellow GT3 is just around the corner from me now, providing this apparent rift in the 2017-2022 spacetime continuum remains open
thanks I thought so. Hope you get it! Only issue now is lifter noise on cold start for a second. Never heard a fully cold start since car was indoors. I hope it�s not guides also, which I read isn�t too bad. What you think?
Your car is astronomically rare as optioned without both Traction Control and On Board Computer. Cars thusly configured are the grail �zero nannies� MY1999. Not even the old MKI GT3 has a cable throttle. And the GT3 is a LOT heavier than your early 99.
Its no wonder you are freaking out driving that car. A zero-nannies ultra-lightweight 1999 is one of the greatest driving experiences ever made for the road. Bar almost none
Thats typical of the flat motors once the oil drains horizontally out; and you hear it only take a few milliseconds for the oil to get right back.
Others can chime in but I�ve been ignoring that brief little rattle for twenty+ years
And finally, those 17” wheels, while not particularly rare, and indeed almost 4 LBs total lighter than the fabled BBS #408 18” Hollow Spokes. So you are literally driving the lightest water cooled 911 variant ever delivered to the US
3/98 build
White / Black
I ran the Vin Anaytics and a ton of info came back. First time I did that. Info overload. I'll sort through that in due time.
Picture of build sticker attached. And what does C02 mean at the beginning of every code? I think this is even on my 2001 C4 car.
Early 99 180,000 miles. Proves that these cars can go if you maintain them properly. Cool thing is in Lubbock, where I got my bs and Ms in engineering at Texas Tech.
Do you feel the Vin Analytics info is worth it? Anything in there that you didnt know about prior to? Was looking into using it.. also the window sticker option.. anyone have any opinions on it or other options?
Thanks!
I love the color, specially grey interior not savanah or natural. Anyway is not an early build and has a car fax accident. Maybe I get it and put all the performance mods from mine in it , return the 3/98 to completely stock and yes the 408s would be going on this car too. Bd let me know what you think??? Thanks
Pretty sure that's IMS chain noise you are hearing, Porsche did several updates over the years to the tensioners. The oil drains out when sitting causing the rattle noise when first starting until the tensioner refills. The updated tensioners apparently retain oil pressure longer when sitting. I have the updated tensioner (latest P/N 996.105.180.59) for mine and plan to install it over the winter.
Silver "Millennium" Porsche Crest.
MY 01 2000 build C4 has the Silver Crest on the steering wheel and the Hood. I have only seen this on one another 2000 MY. I took the Hood badge off and was surprised to see the Part number started with 993! So this may have been an Option before the 996? I found and contacted the original buyer when I bought the car in 2010 and he said he ordered the "Silver Option" ??? The car also has Silver paste on trim in the interior that is very much a Dealer Add-on, not Factory Porsche
The car is Artic Silver over full leather Black interior. While the trim was aging and I removed some, it does brighten the interior - some what like we now see in 997 - 992 MY. I am happy with my Silver & Black 996 after 10 years and 100k miles so no need to change anything, its a keeper!
@98-996
I love that interior color! On what platform did you find it for sale? I'm on the hunt and want to make sure I'm looking everywhere
Thanks in advance!
thank you. FB marketplace. Was at a local dealer. They didn�t know what they had. Was a trade in. Car lives in CO it�s whole life. Unbelievably clean underneath.
This happens all the time. It takes a collectible like five years to trickle down into the workaday lexicon of the
average
used car manager. 996 steals like this will abound for like three or four more years; 997 even more
oh wow, that's great. I looked on there, but not too regularly. Will have to work that in to my search routine. I have found a few, but all really far away from Miami. I'm not against traveling and driving back, or even transport, but California/Oregon/Washington is a bit much.
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it
I really hope you're right
This is my conundrum. I want to wait to find the ideal one (or as close as ideal for me), but the longer I wait, the more it lowers my chances of finding a good deal. Someone told me it took them 3 years to find their ideal 996. No clue how much effort they put into their search though.
Some of us only spent a couple weeks. Granted this was years ago, but still.
If you're fairly loose on the "must haves" and have a swing in the budget, you can find something that should fit without spending too much time. May have to travel and drive it back, but to me that makes it all the more fun.
Good to know.
Yes on both counts
I'm trying to not be too strict on my criteria.
I love traveling to pick up my cars and then driving them home. I've done that multiple times and it is a blast. Also a great opportunity to flush out any potential issues.
rare color, factory 408s, seems likee it has been super maintained. I have seen a vesuvio in person and it is not my color, blue is it for me, cam deviations are 3,3 , Jake Raby says 4, to fix, Porsche allows up to 6. I guess to whoever likes the color go ahead, extensive documentation of service is a huge plus on this car. Not certain is work $39k.
Color did it for me I had no idea about the 408’s until I flew out to Isringhausen to the see the car, I was in such a rush to lock it up. All the historical stuff and service records were just icing I was after that purple unicorn
glad that you got it. Plenty of times I have bought a different color than I wanted do to crazy good deals. My 04 R32 was reflex silver and my p is artic silver, in both cases I wanted blue, but couldn�t let the good deals passed by.
Polar is just the color for me. I have a 99 in Arctic and one in Polar. I just get a warm feeling from the Polar that I don't get from the Arctic ( it's a cold feeling...lol)...
You really need to see them side by side in person to get the "feeling" from them, but here is a pic from " Little Tally" TDGP Raceway of me and my son having some fun....
I have had a '03, 01, and now own a '99. Going backwards in model year is a result of prices rising I suppose.
Differences I notice are
1) 03 had more interior squeaks and rattles, which were more pronounced in cold weather. The interior tightened up when the heat ran for a while. 99 is silent...plastic fantastic!
2) Better mileage from the 03, perhaps 'cause I keep the revs higher in the 99 to get it to go. I often leave it in 5th on the highway
3) 99 has the cable throttle, not a noticeable difference for me
4) 99 does seem more tossable, but has a modified suspension, so.....
5) Manual hood and engine cover release in 99 is MUCH smarter, though I occasionally catch my foot on it getting out of the car
6) No glove compartment in 99 is weird, more storage space would be nice. No Porsche should have a cupholder!
7) Interior road noise level on all three was/is bad. Induction sound on 03 was magical, as was PSE - on 99 can't hear induction over the Fabspeed mufflers, catless x-pipe. Conti's definitely quieter than the michelins
8) Radios on every porsche I have owned (81 sc, 968, 944 s2, and three 996s) have all sucked. But what's the point (see #7)
9) More wind noise in 99 from leading edge of roof over windshield
‘99 definitely lighter, tighter, and as you note more revvy and tossable. No glove box in race cars: so Ferry tossed it, but Weiderking put it right back in after Ferry’s death. Cable throttle, no PSM, OBC delete, ultralight BBS wheels, the list of MY1999-only goodies just goes on and on...
But the absolutely fabulous best thing about 1999 (and all MKI)? Magnus always says it best: “Nobody had a problem with the bloody headlights when they won LeMans!”
I recently went from a �00 (after 3 1/2 years of ownership) to a �99 with a 5/98 build. My take on the comments above in particular.
I get about the same MPG as I did in the �00
I love the cable throttle. I can definitely tell the difference. I also like the way the pedal releases when I turn off cruise control. Very old school. Reminds me of my old 280ZX from may back.
With good sized compartments in the doors and a decent size center console, I don�t need a glove compartment, and I don�t like the aesthetics of the one that was added to the 996.2.
I can tell a big difference in throttle feel between my 99’s and 01. The cable throttle is more mechanical (surprise right. Stiffer and linear feeling) with no lag between flooring it and the injectors doing their jobs and moving the car faster.
I think the people who “can’t tell” there is a cable throttle simply never drove a cable throttle car before. There is a taut steel cable directly linking your foot to the throttle body. That vintage analog “feeling” is impossible not to notice, unless you just don’t recognize it. Think of changing gears with a manual shift linkage, versus electric F1 paddles: you can’t tell me that doesn’t feel a quantum measure of “different”; much less better! But then my kids have no desire whatsoever to shift gears. I suppose to some significant degree appreciation for “vintage” depends upon “age”
So the “analog, visceral” MY1999 may not be so much “vintage” as it is just “old”
I really appreciate all the knowledge and humor you're bringing, but can we please cut this crap? They just didn't have budget for a glove box. Apparently Ferry didn't have a problem with a glove box on any 911 before the 996 including the 2.7 RS.
I couldn�t agree more. The difference between my �99 and �02 is palpable when it comes to how the car feels against my foot when accelerating. You did a great job describing it, and I�d add one more word: �better�
“Money” for a glovebox?? Is that a joke? And the 2.7RS was built inside an existing platform that
already had
a glovebox!! What were they supposed to do redesign the whole dash board because of one 1973 engine upgrade: are you kidding??
996 was the only “new” 911 platform since 1964. Not one part carried over. And especially not one glovebox. Ferry was
proud
of that.
It literally cost them ten times more to hide storage compartments all over the car than it would have to simply keep the glovebox.
Just like the 996 headlight: the most expensive unit in the history of Porsche; probably even the automobile at that point.
Yet to feed the absurd “fake 911” narrative Road & Track will explain: “
Porsche didn’t have the money”
for the old, round 1964 VW lighting???
Come on man. The 993 headlights are only a few hundred dollars. The 996 mono-housed racing headlights are several
thousand
dollars.
EACH
The 1999 996 used the headlights from the 1998 996 GT1 that won LeMans, NOT the Boxster (Boxster headlights are
different part number and less than half the price
of the unique GT1 headlight design used on 996)
And the 1998 996 GT1 that won LeMans
did not
have a glovebox
Yes 1999 996.1 had no glovebox, and it did have the exact same headlights (tail lights, and quite a few more 996 part numbers actually) as the 1998 996 GT1;
which also had
no glovebox
Ferry died in 1998, Weiderking took control (he already had charge), and the very next 996 MKII had different headlights than GT1, and no surprise it also had a massive, luxurious leather glovebox; exactly as the retired plastic surgeons in the Beverly Hills focus groups had demanded
Go figure or connect those dots. Your choice
Wait, the headlights were exact same as the GT1 ? Except for the Amber?
Does my 2001 911 have a glovebox. LOL, I don't even know. I know it has cup holders and my 1999 doesn't.
"Amber" was not present on the 996 GT1 headlights that won LeMans. However amber lenses were fitted to two of the subsequent road-legal GT1 Strassenversion cars
On 996 Carrera, the unique amber lenses were actually fitted only for the few months from (11/97-08/98) of the 996 "early-build" 996 production run on the 993 assembly line (to internally commemorate that unique, pre-launch factory undertaking). AND most of those amber-lenses units went to EU/ROW, as MY1998 launch cars
ONLY a relative handful of MY1999 C2's fitted with amber-lenses were actually imported by PCNA in 1999; regardless how many hundreds of sets of
"Coveted amber lenses!!"
you see on Autotrader.com
(Check the build date sticker; caveat emptor applies)
Strangely, MY1999 was manufactured for almost three long years (1997, 1998, 1999): the vast predominance of them used the clear-lenses version
ALSO yes of course your MY2001 has no glovebox.
Marketing and hype and disintegration is real; ESPECIALLY with early-mid 2K (IE post Ferry) Porsche...
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...ovie-cars.html
So, about cable throttle vs electric actuated. Has anybody actually measured the "lag" for the electronic throttle compared to the cable? I've engineered a number of embedded HW/SW systems, and if Porsche did proper engineering (as usual) the latency through the system should be only a few milliseconds (perhaps 10-20 maximum) -- that's 1-2% of a second, which no human could actually sense. The cable throttle probably does have a different "feel", but I doubt there is a noticeable "lag" unless someone can provide some measurements.
It might be just "confirmation bias". That means the observer presupposes the electronic throttle probably is slower. So when I try it .... see, I can tell its slower.
I don't personally notice "lag" per se on the eGas. The 2022 GT2RS is eGas no one would accuse that car of "lag"
I just personally sense on eGas 911's that there is a computer somewhere between me and the engine, and it is deciding what to do based on my input, and an indeterminate number of programs; at least one of which is based on EPA restrictions
Because with all MY2K and later 911's there is a computer between me and the motor
On MY1999 there simply, indisputably, is not: there is only one, taut, steel cable
That fact (and "feel") has a value, at least to me. As time marches on, and beyond ICE, this value can only (exponentially) increase
MY1999 is a very special and unique 911. And they're all good: 1964-2022. So that's saying something
Yup,
two
GT1 Strassenversions were fitted with amber lighting. Which leaves approximately
19
that were fitted with the clear GT1 lenses. This could have been intentional; IE meant to mirror the early-build production run of MY1998/9 amber-lenses cars versus subsequent clear-lenses standard MY1999 production (10% total production)
That would mean there are only about 2K amber lenses cars total in the world; and a fraction of that total in the U.S. That's just speculation; no one knows exactly how many C2's were "early-built" along with the outgoing 993 in it's final 97/98 production months
All we know for sure is there aren't many; at least not here
Are you an engineer? Maybe my very nice example of a 2001 C4 EThrottle CAR IS BROKEN but there is a big difference in the two cars. Like HUGE.
To most people they notice or wouldn't care I'm sure. But I THINK a normal 911 enthuseist driver could feel the differences, especially if we made them aware of what to look / feel for.
Yes, I'm not an engineer and proud to say, however I'm a better driver with feels than probably 99.5% of drivers. Now that's debatable for sure. but my driving / car / *** senses are much more refined than the average driver.
I'm one with my cars obie wan.
Yeah, I'm an engineer, boring and with glasses, but I don't wear my shirt pocket protector anymore. I absolutely agree that there must be a difference in "feel", I was only questioning if there is any noticeable delay in responsiveness or acceleration. I think the only way to determine this is measuring, not by the human sensing it.
Yes, it will be easily measureable however one measures for such things. If you're ever in the 20850 call me. I'll let you take both out back to back and you can see for yourself.
Egas changes the "gas" pedal - which was NEVER a "gas" pedal, it was always an AIR pedal. Driver demands AIR, engine management adds the right amount of GAS to match that air. Egas makes the "gas" pedal into a TORQUE pedal. Driver demands TORQUE, engine management scales air/fuel/ignition/boost as required.
If the cable throttle is so pure, why don't we go back to running solex and SU's? Or the weighted plate K-Jetronics? That gets all the electronics out of the way. Oh, because the cars ran like RUBBISH, that's why.
A buddy of mine asked to check out my MY99 today. He was drawn to the fried eggs with amber lenses and asked, "Were these extra? They're stunning!". He's in his mid-30s. More evidence that the younger generation is seeing the 996 for the incredible piece of design and engineering it is, and the old "purist" opinion of the 996 is being exposed for how silly it was.
Dude you are aware that on your beloved �99 � which you are trying to sell � a computer is somewhere between you and the throttle pedal deciding how much fuel to add?
I�ve never tried a �99 so I haven�t experienced it myself. Just want to cut a little bit on the hype here. And I also own a �72 with MFI so I know all about mechanical linkage and throttle response. (Aren�t throttle rods supposed to be superior to cables??)
What an interesting comment about "AIR" pedal and "TORQUE" pedal.
The throttle cable is PURE, which harkens back to the OP's title. And what makes the 99 special. It's one of the only direct links between the air cooled cars and the water cooled cars.
Sounds like you�ve got some fried egg envy and are making futile attempts to cut what you call hype pertaining to the MY99. 😉
There are tangible differences between the MY99 and all other 996 C2s that followed. When you get the chance to drive a well sorted one, then you�ll know.
When I bought my MY99, the seller also had a �00 C4, and a �01 C2 with aero for sale. I had the chance to drive all three. I drove the C4 and the MY99 back to back, twice each, and carefully considered the choice between all three. There were in fact visceral, tangible differences that made the MY99 stand out. And all three were excellent examples, all with between 69k -82k miles. So it was a rare opportunity to consider my choices carefully. In the picture below you can see all three of them, with the clear winner in plain view. (First thing I did was to have the tinting removed. That was a must!)
You chose wisely. My MY1999's surpassed every 911 I've ever owned, including a Turbo, with the sole exception of the 996 manual Turbo. The Mezger motor in that car is so unbelievably superb and thrilling all the myriad shortcomings of that car versus the MY1999 are lost (and there are MANY!). The sticker price on the MY1999 was $74K and the Turbo was $138K. Literally
twice
the cost of MY1999!! And the MY1999 still manages to come within a hair's breath of displacing even the Mezger too. That to me is the most amazing thing. I'll drive both these cars back to back and come away unsure every single time. It always comes down to nothing but the sound of the Mezger idling that keeps it, and puts the MY1999 up for sale. The sound is indescribable. But it is the exact same sound you hear in the LeMans footage. That weird, terrifying crackling bee buzz. MY1999 is amazing. But (apparently) no car on earth can surpass the Mezger.
Edit: When Joe Isringhausen drove the just-sold PTS Vesuvio 991 GT2RS off the floor to make room to access the Vesuvio MY1999 (that I had just bought), the sound of that GT motor was very, very good, but it is no Mezger. All $400K of it, and it is no Mezger. So for me: it was worth nothing.
Looking back I sold off my Speed Yellow Tip-S Turbo immediately after buying this latest MY1999 and it was not a difficult decision at all. I fully expected the reverse here: after buying the Speed Yellow manual Turbo I fully expected the MY1999 to be easy to part with. Whoa was I wrong. It's been seven months of wrangling between these two cars. There is something ineffable about MY1999 that is simply indefinable and defies specifications or statistics. Conversely I waved goodbye to my last 2001 Speed Yellow Carrera and never gave it another thought. It was a flawless 911. But just didn't "do it" (for me!)
I'll say MY1999 is Ferry Porsche's pinnacle achievement 911, and everything done since his death diminished that somehow (glovebox, single row IMSB, Variocam"+", etc. etc. etc.). But someone will call me delusional.
If someone could somehow shoehorn a Mezger into a MY1999 that would be the greatest car ever made
But for eGas and (even more regrettably) weight the MK1 GT3 probably is as close as we will ever come
The MY1999 is compromised by the lack of a Mezger. And the Mezgers are all compromised by weight and electronics
Thus the perfect 911 will never exist (but 930 & 2.7 RS probably come pretty darn close!)
Edit: In retrospect it really could be as simple as power-to-weight and the lack of nannies. I mean if there was a way to close your eyes while driving the MY1999, it could be the 930 or RS. It probably just comes down to 300HP and 2,x00 LBs and rear-engine; and that whole crazy kit and caboodle completely lacking a computer! Ferry's "magic" formula really might be that ridiculously simple
100% with you on all fronts! And I have 2 99's and the early build 99 is definately different. The 01 is my 8 month daily as it's c4 and PLANTED (aka heavy) and good in the rain. But we should really stop telling people about the early 99 cars so we can buy more at a lower price!
On the tint front, 2 of my 3 996's had window tint. I removed the tint on the silver car on day 2. It took me 3 days to remove the tint of my 3/98 white 996. only because I had to change my appt date. Looks SOOOOO much better now. I'm sorry I still can't swallow the CHROME wheels though. Those will be coming off for a set of #408's! Enjoy your fried egg.
I saw all that looks nightmarish; I don't ever modify my cars at all. A GT3 Console Delete in a Carrera is radical for me. A GT3 motor in a Carrera is simply unthinkable
Yeah I knew that but didn't know how early they offered them. Would be nice to know how early they were offered.
I do know they were options on 2001 model year. Cause I have em on my 01 C4 aero car. Of course the fronts on the non gt3 are smaller. Rears are same. Finding a set of 8" fronts isn't easy.
It's impossible AFAIK to parse out what options were offered on specific years within the MK range. All we can do is observe examples and infer
https://www.stuttcars.com/technical/...des/996-98-01/
The new tint is UV protective and allows light in. I had dark not quite limo tint but DARK tint on my silver and white car. When they are daily's its a great idea as both interiors are nicely preserved. Now they have achieved classic status they might see 10 days of sun per year. Man, I just realized I need to drive my classics more often. Traffic just sucks bad around WDC area. Wish I lived in the country where I grew up. Need a second home about an hour away with a 13 car garage. Cuase I ain't selling any !!
Yeeesh. Thinking about DC traffic saddens me. I escaped the DC area for Utah. Unfortunately, family will probably drag me back east one day.
Virginia does have some great roads though.
don�t know guys but a 3.8 or 4 liter in the light nimble cable early build 99 with no traction control nanies should be almost unbeatable as a driving experience. Anyway bd you know anything about fvd or softronigs tune for the cable throttle???
. Not until 2000. Sadly the previous owner replaced the stock rims years ago. It�s the one thing I would change if the opportunity to swap were to come up.
I read it online but I�ll defer to you my friend. You know more than I.
it pains me to think about it, but my MY99 came with 408s according to the hood sticker. 😢
Folks anyone care to please guess(timate)
how many early-build 996 C2's were made during that pre-production run on the 993 assembly line
11/97-08/98? I assume this can be inferred from the VIN of the later 08/98 cars?
It occurred to me only this morning there could very likely be far fewer of these early C2 manual coupes than even 996 Turbo/GT's
Edit:
before you balk, think- There were only 8-months of early-C2 production, and these units were assembled in alternating sequence with 993 cars; so as a practical matter that should equate to only half that long. Meanwhile the GT's & Turbos were manufactured for multiple years; & the GT's for multiple generations (MKI & MKII)
Fair enough! My point was that the argument that there's a computer between you and the throttle doesn't really make much sense, as there's a computer anyway. Today I paid careful attention to the feeling of the pedal in my '00 and it does feel like a non-linear relationship to the throttle flap. Most likely I would enjoy a cable throttle more. It's still a pretty good drive though.
So the VINS aren't in order or are in order? I'm 3/98 build and my vin is 2xxx. What is the vin of the 5/98 car? Someone with a 1/98 build's vin is 0096?
Well there has been a "computer"
present
on the 911 since 1972. But there has only been a computer controlled throttle since MY2000. You're probably right though as a practical matter
mine is a 3/98 build and the VIN ends in 620926
the Vesuvio C2 you�re selling ends in 623514 (is yours an 8/98?)
that�s a difference of 2588 cars in 5 months for an average of 517 cars per month.
that�s assuming the VINs increment by 1 and production output was not variable.
so if we�re saying 11/97 to 8/98 for a total of 9mo of production of early-built 996s at an average of 517 per month we�re looking at ~4,650
I suspect the number is lower as I�ve heard there were only 17 MY99s built between 11/97 and 12/97
plus I imagine the first several months were a ramp up.
so - I think a reasonable guesstimate with those two data points is ~4,000 examples
thoughts from others?
That is an excellent breakdown and I agree 4K early-build total C2 examples are a reasonable inference from the VIN's.
How many of those are manual coupes is up for grabs; and how many of those fractionally made it to the U.S. is a mystery as well, but even at 4K the number is still fewer than either the GT's or Turbo
Astoundingly rare then
Absolutely. I drove my �00 cabriolet for 3 1/2 years and loved it. Then when I stepped into the MY99 for the first time the difference was clear. And there were other things that stood out. Of course it felt lighter than my cabriolet, but that had less to do with it being a MY99. The dashboard material looked brand new and had a different texture that has a tactile quality which �Ron� described so well in his original post. Apparently it was more expensive, and Porsche did away with it after a few months of production.
I think I have the very last early build off the assembly line (let me dream) which is stamped 09/98. VIN ends in XS623749. I have the front and rear ambers, 4-spoke, no TC, no OBC, just a sunroof, a Becker CD changer, 18” wheels, and memory drivers seat. Manual coupe. Arena red with Savannah beige. 100% stock except for the Fisters.
I am trying to figure out if mine is an early build. You always list 08/98 as the cutoff, but mine has 09/98. It has literally every checkmark (including sparkle) on the first post except the 408. I don�t want to post in your new thread if I�m not part of the club.
I just want to help get an accurate count/range if mine falls in the category.
Porsche's fiscal year ends August and the factory shuts down for vacation; which is why 08 is the last of the early-amber build dates we've ever seen. #408 wheels were only optional so that's no indication.
I suppose the salient question is were amber lenses originally fitted?
So were there no 09/98 builds? Wondering somewhat as well as mine is a 10/98 build, no TC and no OBC with all the good dash and interior platic. Options are X54, 446, 490, 696. No idea if mine came with abmers as mine has been modified over the years and has no amber front or back at this time.
Maybe mine stayed on the line with the last of the 993s over vacation?
All we know is the factories shut down in September; no idea when or for how long. Apparently not for the whole month because at least one Rennlister is citing 09/98 build. So if that Sept. build was an original amber car then the shutdown was the end of month. If not, then shutdown was first of month (as believed).
Stay tuned this is all nascently forming knowledge...
I bought this from an older lady in Dallas. I have every receipt since she bought it in early 2000s. She had spent $33,000 in past 15k miles before I became its steward right at the start of Covid. Rebuilt engine, new starter, all new brakes, clutch, IMS/RMS, etc. So this is how I bought it before it became fashionable to retrofit the yolks and ambers. I was seriously considering Litronic and clear lenses all around but decided I could save my money and have a hideous 911 that everyone hated. Oh the humanity! I felt the pressure to replace the side markers like you wouldn�t believe. Let me know if you need any more pics. Thanks.
When I took these out to add an LED backup bulb, it was filthy in the recess.
These are original. The yolk is still UV faded after repeated attempts to polish up.
Soo funny everyone HATED the amber lenses for twenty years and then BOOM! now suddenly everyone has to have them...
You Tube
So many used car dealers (and BaT sellers) have retrofitted ambers recently trying to illicitly cash in on early-build frenzy that the amber lenses are now NLA from Porsche
That kinda sux
@wisco3-98 I LOVE this car. I can’t keep from smiling from the engine starting until I get home from a drive. With the Fister mod and Porsche Short Shift kit, it is intoxicating. It was the worst best purchase - saw it on eBay and showed kids. They both immediately said, “Buy it!” Sight unseen, no PPI, no bore scope, I didn’t know what questions to ask at the time, total newbie and trusting. Thank goodness they sent all the receipts. Then the receipts scared me of how much of a money pit this was going to be. Then I finally got to the F-it stage and just hop in and drive. Only gas and oil and new tires so far. Sadly, just 1,450 miles in 21 months. No winter/rain driving, and I have 5 other cars to choose from. And soon going to add a 1985 928 to the mix.
I just put in the 580 lumens cool white 1156 bulb from SuperbrightLEDs.Com. On the exterior, I only replaced reverse light with LED, and changed headlight bulbs to PIAA off-road, and the fog lights yellow PIAAs. On the interior, all LED in doors and map light and ashtray. Oh, and added blue LED up under dash in footwell (recessed enough so it’s not obnoxious) to give it the Martini look with the red shift **** and stripes in the boot and center arm rest. I can just take out bulbs if I get tired of a subtle blue aura at night.
Well that was fast. User
@MBH911
has helped us determine likelihood of 3,749 total 996 early-build coupes manufactured total. Prob less than 1K of those made it to US.
Amazing:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post17843387
Think i quoted the wrong post. Meant to pull in @
mstakacs
Def post more pics,
@mstakacs
! I LOVE the arena red over savannah beige with the amber lenses. Besides my ocean blue/savannah/ambers it is my favorite. Followed by the ocean jade blue which i would buy in a heartbeat.
That�s actually great news in terms of the likelihood that values for true MY99s will continue to go up, while those fitted with ambers to replicate the hand built 996s could become quasi replicas.
bdronsick is definitely the authority on early 99 and on 99 in general. I had noticed all the things he has mentioned here as they came out, and was astonished at the Purest reaction to the model, but kept my mouth shut due to their very boisterous views and just waited for the day when I could buy one (or two
).
The most noticeable driving difference to me from all previous model 911's that was never even talked about was the pedals. They hung down from the top as opposed to coming up from the bottom as all previous 911 models. This was a huge improvement to me that was never talked about because it was a positive for the new model and didn't fit with the common narrative that the model was inferior.
They are indeed an improvement (save for the engine issues) over previous models.
The fact that the early cars were "hand made" as opposed to "robot built" should bring a premium today, as well as the 99 in general being the last " cable throttle" also be a premium.
The other things like 4 spoke vs 3 spoke, amber vs clear , ect. just don't hold much weight unless you are trying to be a " Purest" or 'Collector"., and remember to all 996 lovers the word "Purest" stirs bad emotions..lol
So what would be the cutoff build date that we could say cars weren't (as least more) hand built than the later 996s? Are all cable throttle cars considered among those?
lol. I get to the F it stage real quick. I’m 50 but I have heard Ariana Grande’s song my daughter listens to. I See it, I got it, I want it, I buy it
Thats my Modo, Im usually a good judge but have been screwed before. Those sellers are going to hell also. That’s something they have to deal with lol
Ain’t nobody got time for a PPI
The 1999 isn't just special, it's the greatest machine ever produced by man. All other human endeavors pale in comparison to this phenomenal machine, which was only built for a short time. The 2000+ is c&@p.
For instance, I've found that cable throttle instantly makes the driver lose 20lbs and become more virile. Women throw themselves at the cable throttle actuation driver. Past loves and exes will instantly regret their transgressions, once they know you have a cable throttle, longing for as little between you and their body as between your foot and the throttle's. (Just don't tell them you still have a computer measuring air intake and managing fuel delivery and timing! That will be our little secret; we wouldn't want a scandal.) You bank account will instantly double, and your boss will beg you to take a raise.
Ohh, and your car gains 20... no 30... no, All the Horsepowers! And the throttle reponse is so fast it happens before you even move your foot!
Oh, and don't get me started on the magical properties of the Mk1 headlights...
P.S. Since this is the internet, I'll explain. I don't own a '99. Some of the hyperbole here just seems a little extreme, and a bit like Corvette-owners, who all have a 1 of 1 green, manual, made on a Thursday, etc. I'm just having a little fun.
Lol. But consider this: what is the point of hyping up a 23-year old car without cause? It�s because the owners of these cars have been inspired enough to evangelize them. Can�t say that about many of the 996�s 1999 contemporaries�.
drive one and see
Some owners go over the top praising their cars and that's usually a good thing
Notwithstanding the OP here attempts to document primarily 1: The myriad physical differences that are unique solely to MY1999 in general, and secondarily 2: Those differences unique to the 3K or so "early-build" pre-production units (amber lenses), that were built with the outgoing 993
Don't throw out the baby with hype
11/97-08/98
build date range is considered "early-build 996" and these cars were fitted with amber headlight and taillight units from the factory, where they were assembled in sequence with outgoing 993 cars. Of approximately 30K MY1999 units manufactured total, only 3,749 are to date known as having been manufactured in the 993 factory; this number includes coupes/cabriolets & manual/tiptronic.
OF
the 3,749 early-build pre-production 996 units, the vast predominance were designated with MY1998 VIN for the ROW 996 launch.
And only a fraction of these early-build cars were imported as MY1999 by PCNA.
The Rennlist
Early-Build 99 Registry
is nascently documenting the early 996 cars:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ispreloading=1
FYI ALL
MY1999 VIN 996 cars had the legacy 911 cable throttle body
I appreciate car enthusiasts of any kind, as long as it isn't gatekeeping or disparaging of other's cars. No one will say you don't have passion! I was just teasing a bit.
You do know that you're referring to yourself in the third person, yes? jdbornem thinks that you're either royalty, or might need to have that looked into by a professional.
OP = "original post", & I am the
originator
of the original post. If I'm misconstruing an urban slang I certainly apologize!
IMO no 996 can be disparaged. My 2003 Turbo suffers the combined sum of all of Weiderking's worst post-Ferry money-saving hacks, and it remains nonetheless a masterpiece seated atop the apex of the 911 halcyon; IMO of course
Interesting. I thought I had seen it mostly referring to the person, original poster, but 'Original Post' does sound better. Fascinating.
But I've derailed your thread enough. Back to your originally scheduled programming...
I don�t really understand how there could be a substantial difference in build quality compared to later model years. By the middle of the 993�s production run, Porsche had already begun to overhaul their production systems in collaboration with Japanese consultants. The Japanese came in 1992, well before the 996 hit production lines.
Is there also a perceived difference in build quality between early and late 993s? If people want to blame the Japanese influence on build quality, it seems like it should have impacted the 993 too.
Things started to turn around for Porsche in 1994, but I haven�t heard anyone complain about cost cutting during the 993�s production run.
I can really only speak from my experience with my early-build MY99 vs MY02 996s but the former has much nicer materials compared with the latter. The leather was from a different supplier in 1998 (Connolly) which is seemingly of better quality than what was used in my '02 (the '99 still smells like leather inside!), the console materials of higher quality look and feel in MY99, and there are no speaks and rattles in the MY99 where there are several in my MY02.
Mechanically, there is also the dual row IMS in the MY99 (and i think into 2000-01 perhaps) that had a much lower failure rate, and the early cars were not known to suffer the bore-scoring of the later builds.
I don't think that's attributable to the influence of the Japanese on production necessarily. I'm sure a litany of changes were afoot after Ferry Porsche's death. Companies change after founders or founder/CEOs die or retire. Not always for the worse, but it's just not the same after they are gone. I find it interesting how the changes to the 996 happened shortly after Mr. Porsche's death in March of 1998.
Interestingly, my 10/98 build ser. is 624298 vs. 623514 for bdronsick's 07/98 build. They are only 784 numbers apart seeming to indicate the new prod line took a long time to ramp if numbers were assigned sequentially. Verified this with a car on BaT numbered 624405 11/98 build. Wonder if both lines were running simultaneously for a while, which might make sense from a business point of view. Like how I put my car on the 993 line LOL?
You are so right; especially with regard to Weiderking's "overhaul" of manufacturing methods based on Japanese "JIT" (just in time) supply methodology, which had actually begun during 964, and by 993 was already fully implemented.
The cost savings alterations made during 996 production IMO can be limited solely to the two subtle "downgrades" in interior plastics quality; first from the MKI pre-production color-thru material (sourced from the same supplier as Rolls Royce), to the later standard production version that looked nearly identical, but was surface-applied. Then even more markedly at MKII which introduced "rubberized" plastics, a chintzy scourge which later became almost ubiquitous throughout the 911 cabin during 997; until irate customer complaints did away with that cheap mess entirely by 991.
As for the M96/97 motor I believe the only cost-saving measure ever taken post MY1999 was the replacement of the original robust dual-row IMSB with the (relatively) fragile single-row version; which was short lived anyway, as the warranty replacements quickly offset any savings. And by MY2005 the more robust units were re-implemented.
Remember all Porsche factory production in Germany stops approx 30-days in September (at least it still did back in 1998); the 996 production line change occurred at this juncture
That accounts for the chronological "gap" in production indicated by the VINs
Please remember all sales/margin/assets/etc. data from Weiderking's tenure at Porsche has already been demonstrated (in court) to be false. Weiderking was arrested and tried for corporate fraud in Germany, literally for falsifying all of this information in the failed hostile takeover attempt of VAG.
The only thing we actually know is that
Porsche had more (hidden) cash reserves at the end of Type 993 than any time in its history
. AND Porsche was simultaneously advertising the EXACT OPPOSITE of this to the public, luring VAG into a bad-faith buyout negotiations of Porsche. This subterfuge was in order to gain illicit access into VAG's own holding information. As soon as VAG's cash position was (illegally) known, Porsche began it's hostile takeover maneuvers of VAG using it's own (superior) cash position.
However the fraud was detected, Weiderking was arrested and terminated as CEO of Porsche. And VAG completed it's cash purchase of Porsche. This is history. That chart is essentially a fraud.
The whole "996 saved Porsche!" is an utter falsehood. Porsche never needed saving. Not even close
interesting context. But it does appear to be true that cost cutting started well before 996 production, given the production overhaul that took place in the first half of the 90s. I just like to point this out because many people point to Japanese involvement as the �proof� that the 996 is garbage, but by that logic the 993 would be garbage too, but nobody would say that
I�ve only had significant seat time in a 1985.5 944, 2001 996, 2000 986 and 2007 987 Cayman. The 944 interior materials were the worst of the bunch and not very durable. I will say that when the 987 was new the interior materials felt much more premium than a 986/996
I always viewed the 80s as the golden age for Porsche, but from my experience the quality of the interior materials in my 80s era Porsche was low and the plastics used were worse than the 996/986. However, there was definitely a feeling of sturdiness you got when you opened or closed the doors that has gone missing from newer cars. The �ka-chunk� sound was really something�
I noticed you edited out the comment about the Cayenne big chunk of cash, because Porsche wouldn't have had that cash untill way after the 993 .
Do you have official documents ( court documents?) that Porsche had this big pile of cash prior to 1996?
Yeah Cayenne was another boatload of cash altogether. Porsche always seems to be rolling in it don�t they. I saw they were the most profitable carmaker yet again this year.
I guess the 996 is still saving them!!!!
Doesn�t Streather�s book say: �The 993 had been Porsche�s most profitable 911�??
I confused that with Cayenne. Which was even more profitable.
Porsche went from the penthouse to the palace with those models.
Wiederking had the cash to buy VAG: the largest automaker conglomerate on the planet.
That�s money baby. A lot of it.
Actually the entire twelve years of court transcripts from Weiderking's criminal trial is online. I read a lot of it. VERY interesting just Google it's somewhere in the twenty million hits
Disagree with this. I had a 987 I bought new and look back on that interior is very plasticky cheap to build, adds to bottom line'kinda thing. 997'ish but cheaper.
Yup, 997 was an interiors quality low point IMO. 996 at least used Connolly leather; and of course the early-build 99's used a same plastic supplier as Rolls Royce (color-thru "granite"). That was a bit of a 911 "high" point I suppose
When I sold my �00 cabriolet last September, color-thru �granite,� as I�m sure you accurately call it, caught my eye the second I got in my �99 for the first time to test drive it. It literally looked like the car was showroom quality after 22
years.
Yes, the early-99 is the high water mark for 911 interior build quality. Everything before and after pales away
Nobody believes this but the few thousand owners
Notice I wrote "
the
few"
Nobody believes that either; even most of those owners!
I ended up buying my 99 unaware of the cach� that came with it. Very glad I did as what the 99s have to offer (even though mine is a late early 996
) is right up my alley. I like quirky things and having wanted a 911 for 34 years, this fits all the bills. I love my car
First I've heard of "late early" but we're certainly open to a new variant!
AFAIK we have: I. Early-build pre-production 996 run from 11/97-08/98. And then: II Standard MY1999 production from 09/98 through mid-99 or so. The dichotomy between both these MY1999 variants is what this thread is partially about; and its parsed as thoroughly as we've been able to on the first page of this post.
Let us know your build date! Congrats!!
A true "no nanny"!
Nobody cares about no TC or OBC because they can't have it their MY, and won't stoop to being seen in a 996 to get in on it
Once 996 Carrera median prices move back up over $50K that will change dramatically, and the MY1999 market will be flooded with "analog" demand. I watched the SC & 964 markets play all these same little reindeer games for decades
The time to lock up a '99 is right now
Mine is truly 'late early' 10/98 build date, and as bdronsick points out Porsche is closed for 30 days in Sept, and my serial number is very close to his 7/98 build meaning it was pbly among the first built in the new plant, and so they took extra care to get them right, which explains why my car is so tight 22 years later bla bla bla bla bla.. ok it's not an early car.
I'm totally down for a secondary late-early registry| 99s built in 98, might be an interest in comparisons, and then see where the changes REALLY happened with the 2000 MY.
somebody put an IMSB in it at 120k miles, giving them the benefit of the doubt I think the buyer got a good deal. something tells me they weren't expecting to win it with the 2-4-6 bid. Still some good deals out there, maybe.
edit. wow it's got a hell of a DME report too.
MY 2000 though.
So does the presence of the hood/trunk actuators and the 4-spoke steering wheel mean that this car is an early 2000? Guess I still have much to learn
MY2K has a lot of the MY1999 goodies held over, like the frunk actuators, dual-row IMSB (1st 1/2 half of 2000 anyway)
Truth is I would take a Speed Yellow/Black 2000 over an Ocean Blue/Beige MY1999 any day of the week. Toss in that the Blue 99 has a bad Carfax and it's a no brainer IMO
Ive owned five 996�s and will own many more. I�m selling one and keeping one now. And then I�m selling that one and buying more. I love them and will own them all if I can. Just not at once
Well, I suppose I ought to chime in here. I've been lurking Rennlist ever since I bought my 02/98 Vesuvio 6 speed about six months ago. This car literally fell into my lap. I was not particularly looking to buy a car, but when a customer of mine casually mentioned he was selling his Porsche, I inquired for more details. The car was a bit rough. It had 130k miles, and has a small dent on the third brake light panel.
Long story short, I bought this car for
$9,200
. After all the maintenance/ upgrades/ mods I performed over the next few months I figure I'm into this thing for a total of about $16k or so. Truthfully, I would have bought the car whatever the model year. The fact that it is an early 1999 in an interesting color, with the hollow spoke wheels makes the deal all the more sweet. I honestly think I may have bought the cheapest running/driving 911 in the country in the last year. Pics attached:
I think mine is an Aug or Sept '99 build marked as a MY 2000. Has 4 spoke, cable throttle, manual frunk / trunk cables. Seems that's around the cutoff for the change though. Have seen other 2000's around same date with 3 spoke and electronic frunk / trunk releases.
Reading this all over and about to pick up a 1999, and I'm wondering what the option code is for no traction control? Or is there an option code for traction control? I'm not seeing either on the build sheet.
I have a friend who has one of these early 1999 builds. When I decided to start looking for a convertible, he suggested looking into these. One of the things that initially caught my attention was the Connolly leather as that's a material I've come across in leather jackets and it's considered something quite special in that community too so it's not surprising that it also ended up being used in these cars. Long story, short, in doing a fair bit of reading, I've ended up here.
I've come across a couple of cabrios that have VINs within the range noted in the OP but with build dates after 08/98. So the total number of 911s that meet these criteria might even be a bit lower if some VINs in the range are taken up by cars that are in reality later builds. Unless there's something different about how cabrios were built, which is entirely possible and basically what I'm asking. I saw 1 cabrio listed on the linked registry and a couple for sale on the web but not many. Curious about any other cabrio + early 1999 build information that might be out there if anyone has any. Thanks
I don't think it had it, there are zero option codes on the sticker, I wish I had taken a picture of it, I pick it up Friday, it's a base, not even heated seats.
Very exciting. I think I posted on here my story about how I came to acquire my MY99 in September. It has been such a blast. Make sure to post some pics and a little back story about yours once you get it.
What color inside and out?
I don't see a build date sticker on either door jamb. Where else would I be able to find it?
I don't have amber lights so I know mine is not an early '99, but it would be cool to know when it was built.
A �no-nannies� MY1999 will NOT have option #222 �Traction Control�
Unfortunately it was not possible to order LSD on the 1999 without Traction Control, but it was actually common for the MY1999�s to be fitted with Traction Control and no LSD
My preference of course would be for the the rarest variant: which is NO Traction Control. After that, my next preference would be for LSD + Traction Control (Option package: 220 + 222 + 224). And the least desirable IMO would be the most common configuration which is Traction Control only (Option 222)
VIN is not a definitive indicator of “early-build” 1999, build date is
We are still trying to decipher how Porsche allocated VIN to determine approximate early-build production total, and you might be right it’s looking like there were even less early build 99’s than previously estimated (<4K)
By way of comparison, there were 7,181 996 GT’s built, and 7,019 Turbo manual coupes. And you see how the Mezger values are now skyrocketing given those “low production!!” numbers.
Early-Build 1999 total production nascently appears to be about half even of those!
That said, if your 996 build date is between 11/97-08/98 it is an early-build ‘99 car (‘98 ROW)
Edit: If you just had a heart attack realizing there are almost two hundred less 996 Turbo manual coupes than 996 GT’s in the world I apologize for dropping that bomb this early in the morning. But Sotheby’s will discover this fact sooner or later anyway
Weird - I don't have a sticker on my door jamb either - MY2000. I always thought it meant that the door had body work done on it etc. Nothing on Car Fax to indicate damage.
What�s the math based on that makes you say that a non-TC �99 is rarer than a 220-equipped �99? In my completely anecdotal experience, it seems that LSD Porsches alway seem to drive a sales premium compared to a non-LSD variant. The reasoning? It�s generally a rarely-equipped option and it�s a performance enhancer.
What are your option codes from the under hood sticker?? Reason I ask is the valve stems look like black rubber (not stainless steel) in the closest photo, which is indicative of the solid spoke version of the Turbo Twist wheels; just wondering
BEAUTIFUL Vesuvio you’re only the third early-build Vesuvio we’ve ever seen!
There is no math as these numbers aren’t released by Porsche. We only know there “seem” to be more cars equipped with Traction Control (both with, and without LSD) than were optioned solely without it
IE Traction Control seems to have found its way on
most
1999’s just as PSM was installed on
most
2000-2004’s
And LSD equipped cars do carry a small monetary premium over non-LSD cars yes; I never disputed this fact. I only observed there are less cars that are equipped without both LSD & Traction Control; and so in my personal opinion this is the preferable variant given the
rarity
While it is indisputable that LSD originally has inherent function and rarity per se does not, I simply have no use for a twenty year old limited slip differential that is indisputably useless today
However, rarity is always increasing in value, thus the TC-delete (“no-nannies”) 996’s are the most valuable
to me
moving forward
Every claim is anecdotal without evidence; and in this case there can be none
You could add to the a anecdotal evidence by starting a poll?
I would support your inquiry in being the first respondent
Lack of computer controlled rear wheel (slide) Traction Control is desirable on any Classic 911
On a 996 it�s both desirable and almost impossibly rare
The market has always, and will certainly always, cherish the visceral, analog, and absurdly �tail happy� driving experience of the Classic rear engined 911
That a scant few 1999 996 examples, configured entirely without computer assisted driving aides preserved this singularly cherished characteristic (IE no Traction Control or PSM), only endears them all the more everlastingly within that highly collectible pantheon
The further passage of time, and the ICE era, will only more starkly highlight this inarguable truth
Remember when this was �hyperbole� too!
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1993-porsche-911-4/
IE everyone who ever underestimated the collectible potential of a rarely configured, lightweight 911, was eventually proven wrong
I believe the build numbers listed here come from the book 996:The Essential Companion by Adrian Streather:
http://howtoporsche.com/911-series/9...r-and-version/
If these production numbers are correct, then I expect many more "amber" built cars than first thought. 1998 MY VIN totals for coupe and cab are just under 10K and a large chunk of those would have been built prior to 8/98. Add in the 4K or so early 99 VIN North American destined cars and the true number of "ambers" becomes even more of a mystery. How many of these cars still exist after 25 years is anyone's guess.
You might be right, which would be good for the entire 996 community.
Of course, one is a factory-built lightweight. The other is a poorly optioned 996.
#apples
#potatoes
Bro, that was the exact automotive press description of the RSA in 1993: "..
a poor man's optioned 911
". Literally word for word. Those RSA cars were DESPISED even more than the already HATED 964 for decades. Dealers couldn't even
give
the RS America away at one point from all the mocking and bad press
So YOU are absolutely RIGHT!
Not so; we have very late 08/98 examples on the Early-Build 1999 Registry with VIN tallies under 4,000. Estimating 10K+ total in only the few days or at most week between these VIN's and the 993 plant September shutdown is just physically impossible
The Early-Build VIN's are actually showing far
less
production than first believed
A lightweight 911 built without computer assisted driving aides is the patent definition of a purpose-built Porsche factory lightweight
You're forgetting who built 996 MKI, and who re-built 996 MKII after the first guy's death...
"I looked around and could not find the car I wanted. So I set about to build my own."
-Ferry Porsche, 1965
I don't think your taking into account the "W" and "X" VIN production numbers..."W" VIN's were never imported to NA by Porsche but literally thousands were built for ROW, and the majority of these would have had ambers.
Do you think the early 996 really preserved the handling characteristics of the early air cooled 911s?
I am thinking not so much, despite the lack of "nanny" features. The suspension system alone changed the character of the car. To a slightly lessor degree the same could be said about the 993 and the 964.
I am not saying the progression since the 964 through early 996 nullified the physics of a rear engine car, but improvements in chassis and coil-over suspension did make a significant difference from the torsion rod suspensions of their ancestors�in my opinion.
Definitely over the generations driving the 911 has evolved from controlling to making the tail break loose
And the 1999 was the last 911 that doesn�t interject a computer into that transaction
All I can say, it drives different than the 2000. Even the doors sound differently when you close them. It�s lighter in weight. The leather looks feels smells differently and as many including Jake Raby can say, it definitely has less rattles. Other than that cheers 🥃 it�s a 911.
THIS is a pronounced difference IMO
Driving my 99 and Turbo back to back first thing you notice is the Turbo rattles; but once GT1 engine is warmed up obviously that is moot
With the exception of the GT cars
if
you exclude the throttle.
Personally, the only way I can tell that the throttle is electronic is when I apply both brake pedal and throttle pedal, and even then it takes a few seconds for the override to kick in. Can't speak for the Carreras.
Are you speaking about the rattle upon startup? I was told that was from initial rich mixture and ignition inside the exhaust, but it sounds more like the cam tensioners have yet to pump up. At least that's what I hear on my GT3. Would assume the Turbo isn't much different.
So my 12.98 build with no TC and no LSD is rare? It is an oddly optioned care. Full leather with deviated stitching, red seat belts, embossed logos in seats, and aerokit installed at the dealer. Lots of things to make it look nice but nothing to make it perform better.
There are only a relative handful of water cooled 911's in the universe with absolutely no computer controlled driving aides (throttle, brakes, yaw, suspension, steering, etc..)
These were
only
built MY1999
Yes: even on the GT's the computer is controlling the throttle body
So if that's not "rare" I don't know what is
Geez, I never thought of that. You know, some cars on the track benefit from application of throttle and brake at the same time. I doubt the 911 is one of those, but that�s interesting it can be done on the 99.
996 GT3RS is the one that is sought after or the Club Sport; both were not imported into North America.
As for MK1 vs MK2, for me there is nothing better about the MK1. MK2 is simply a better track car without the electronic wizardry. The throttle is a non-issue.
Yes that is the problem!
MKI GT3 is an icon IMO, baby GT1 with those incredible headlights
And a no-nanny MEZGER; a combination which is inconceivably desirable
I'm not reading 52 pages but early 99s also had a different owner's manual. The E99 shows a blue 996 from the right rear and only lists 911 Carrera while the later manual shows the front of blue 996 and lists 911 Carrera 4
It took me forever to find an E99 manual that wasn't 200+$
Excellent ! Mine came with a replacement from a later car that was printed after the car was built so I Knew it wasn't original.
What is the print date on the manual ? It's on the first page when you open the cover
How would one know for sure that has/ has not traction control? would it be equipped with a switch? code listing I should look for?
Reason for asking, my 6/00 build does not have t/c as far as I can tell.
Greg
Option code 222 [antislip regulation] or 476 [porsche stability management]
There will be a button on the 'horseshoe' around the radio that says "TC OFF" if you have 222 or "PSM OFF" if you have 476
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the braking advantage you have when ordering TC in a 99. If you have a 99 without TC it will have a 3 channel ABS system where as models with TC have a proper 4 channel ABS system. I don't really see any advantage to having a non TC/ABD/LSD 99.
“Emergency” accident-avoidance braking perhaps, but ABS is generally not considered a performance enhancement; at least not for experienced drivers who will produce better braking outcomes on the track without ABS
IE Porsche Motorsports does not configure its cars with ABS (or TC/ABD/PSM/PASM/etc..)
These are street cars at the end of the day being driven on public roads. The idea of both rear brakes being operated on the same channel is just silly in a performance car.
Is there any source for this info? Production numbers for 993's show the last cars being built in late 1997 with only a few cars being finished in 1998 and the last in march 1998. It doesn't make sense that porsche would go to toyota for help with developing a new more efficient assembly line but then hand build them like the last generation? Its very hard to find photos of 996 production but everything out there shows them on a full on assembly line.
Guys I have a 99 996
Cable Throttle
No glove box
No TC or OBD
Granite look plastics etc
Not sure how early it is? Does anyone know from my options sticker?
Attachment 1326330
Streather�s �Essential 996 Companion� has photos of 993 and 996 in alternating sequence on the same factory floor; these are already posted on Rennlist, search (I�ve read most of his book but never forked over the $200)
You have one of the precious few early build, hand built 996s. OBD can easily be turned on. The granite plastic is outstanding. I have a 5/98 build. They are indeed very special, contrary to the insistence of many on this site. Enjoy!
“
Looks hand built just like the 964 and 993, and not a robot in sight”
Yup, this was the “early-build” 996 production run that ended 08/98 with the Last outgoing 993 at September plant closing for the annual holiday. Thanks for these pictures.
AFTER this early production run 996 production began again 09/98 solely in its own German factory and Boxster production moved exclusively to the new factory in Finland.
Someone can please correct my seriously imperfect Boxster knowledge.
AND although pictured below B&W it’s evident those tail lights are AMBER & red lenses: not clear!
Also the �JIT� (just in time) manufacturing methodology innovated in Japan was implemented by Wenderling Weiderking at Porsche during 964 production almost a decade prior to Type 996
yes just in time. Time studies, anything to improve efficiencies. Yes based on what i
know Porsche started copying kaizang (JIT)
somewhere around the 964. Anyway that was a radical change from normal manufacturing processes, For 996
history I have personally seen an arena red
993 carrera s with 4/98 production date, my car is a 3/98 996, i dont know how late in 98 the 993s where produced, but my car was built in the same assembly lines prior to some of the lasts 993s.
Another 993 thread discussed the last 993’s, and how MY1998 993 production actually continued, with early 996, until 08/98 with Seinfeld’s car being one of the last produced (but was not the absolute last as a “handful” of ROW 993 cars sold in Germany were built that same month after Seinfeld’s)
“Seinfeld ordered the car and they
produced it in ROW spec because the US production of 993's was already shut down
. It even has a km/h speedo. It was a huge publicity stunt with pictures at the end of the assembly line with every worker next to the car. Then, the car was
brought to Pebble Beach in
August, 1998
,where Wiedeking and the PCNA president then (what was his name again?) handed him the keys.
Porsche did make another handful of 993's after this one. They were sold within Germany
, however. One of them, a 993 Turbo, was a gift to the German chancellor.”
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-993-pics.html
FYI 993 US model production had previously ceased 12/97, with serendipitously enough yet another Seinfeld car
If I'm not mistaken some 997 cup cars still used cable throttles
It would seem the market values LSD.
also fyi... there is a handy button to turn off traction control should you be so inclined
I'm not sure how much I believe that all of that. Heres a video of porsche still hand assembling a 964 in 1993. It definitely appears they're welding it together by hand.
You Tube
You seem to misunderstand what nanny means. Generally its used to describe something overprotective to keep you from getting into trouble you could have avoided yourself. ABS and ABD perform functions the driver cannot perform making them driver aids. If one wheel has lower traction and locks up then you have to let off the brakes to regain traction, ABS can step in and release the brake on just that wheel keeping the car on course so you can continue to stay on the brakes and reduce your speed. I hardly consider that a "nanny" since I couldn't do it myself if I wanted. A quick google search shows most people who track these cars prefer ABS and even retrofit it into cup cars that didn't originally come with it. The idea of not flat spotting your tires or spinning out in a panic braking situation is a lot more appealing then "no nannys".
It'd be nice if you could have made this mostly informative thread without inserting
your
opinion
on what stuff
you
think is "holy grain" or "a nanny". Its pretty weird that someone into 911's is advocating the car without an LSD and a worse ABS system all in favor of not having a button on the dash to turn off TC.
Well my preference is for no OBC & Traction Control, others have expressed their preference for Traction Control; no one is right these are options
The 996 GT�s are well known for no computer assisted driving aides, but they do all have ABS
Different strokes
Yes, but the GT ABS is setup differently from the Carreras. I can attest that the GT3 ABS does not engage so easily. It�s there, but it will engage later, after the wheels have locked up. It�s almost as if the car wants to make sure you are serious about skidding before it kicks in.
And yes, I agree with you that I don�t want traction control or PASM either, which is one reason I don�t own a 991 or 992 GT3. They are blindingly fast cars, particularly the brilliant RS, but the price of faster lap times comes at the abstraction of the driving experience. The new GT cars are very forgiving of driver errors. The 996 will bite you.
My only pick is if there is a feature that I do not want or need on a car, it is better to not have it at all. The logic is that an extra unused feature is just another possible failure mode and a possible weight penalty.
Not having stability mode or PASM demands the operator learn how to drive better on the track. You can always move up to a more modern car once you master good techniques. Going the opposite direction just brings bad habits to the game.
Even in day-to-day driving, features like lane-assist teach drivers to rely on crutches rather than paying attention to what they are doing. It�s a two-edge sword.
From the 991 on a bad driver looks good on a Porsche because the car covers a bunch of mistakes. My brother had a turbo s and yes it was fast as hell but everything was basically automated including the launch. Now less than a month ago he bought a 15 gt3 with 5,000 miles. In our cars you need skill and the driver ability makes a ton of difference. Before anyone says anything, I still think you get some analog features and drivers ability make a difference in a manual 997.
Auto-start-stop is the feature that bothers me most on modern cars.
I get the appeal of a car that takes more skill to drive. But certainly there are harder cars to drive than a 996 c2. Seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line. The perfect junction of performance and rewarding difficulty. Could be, I guess.
Bad drivers go faster in modern 911s, but so do great drivers and everyone in between. Why not enjoy both old and new? I think the specificity and hyperbole and the fact that this thread is shared on every BaT 1999 auction rubs some people as salesmanship.
But I admire the passion.
The only reason we have auto start-stop is because of growing demands around fuel economy and emissions. It's not a nanny and it's not that hard to understand. Does it actually translate to significant reduction in emissions and increase in fuel economy? Marginally at best probably. It does, however, translate to more wear and tear on the engine and other components as engine is most efficient during steady operation and not start and stops, especially when it happens close to 100 times a day in some instances. All that matters is that auto makers are able to check a box and say that we are doing x and y to meet the given demands to continue making cars. Same goes for particulate filters that cars in Europe are mandated to have.
Those demands are from the government not the consumer.
A complete ban on the internal combustion engine in the not too distant future.
And it�s not because the consumer wants it.
The government is going to dictate what you can buy and drive.
So get out and enjoy your analog 996 while you can.
Of course they are from the government. Where did I say the customer has been asking for this? With that said, and specifically around fuel economy, the requirements are still based on the unrealistic 55mph speed for highway fuel economy. While there there are places that have a 55mph speed limit on most highways, many places are closer to 70 and even 80 in some states. Also in those 55mph states, you rarely see everyone sticking to that number, especially as newer cars mask speeds to a degree where 55mph feels like 35mph.
yes enjoying it I am, my bourbon chariot. Celebrating the santa clause Christmas rally, which will go into New Years, larceny one bottle per customer per day $16.99, Turkey 101 $19.99. Buying the stuff while I can, 🥃 cheers.
Have to try that walking dead, 94 proof at $15 not bad.
I ain�t going supersonic hate to be stopped with this load in the car.
the government is elected. their policies represent the will of their electorate. the average person (at least here in california) supports the ICE ban, as long as they can get a cheap electric car.
Yep...
WIIFM - What's In It For Me
Otherwise defined as a common human affliction that reaps large amounts of pain on the people as a byproduct of the unintended consequences of government legislation.
Mine doesn�t have it either, so this thread would have me believe there isn�t traction control on mine either. I�ve removed the factory installed �garbage� sound system, and sadly the 408s were long gone before I bought it. Damn I wish I knew why, and where they went.
"people"
Problem is there are too many amazing cars, especially the ones built by Porsche.
One thing for sure, unless it's taxes, my pocket change goes where my passion is and my garage is going to tell you where my passion lies.
I don't own a 996.1 aero car and think the 997.1 GT3 is a better car . I would buy it.
Same goes for the Porsche GT2 or GT3 RS, etc....Now unfortunately my personal finances would draw the line at a CGT. Can't afford that
Coveted million dollar Mclaren�s don�t have glove boxes. So why is this a criticism of the early 996???
�
One thing you will not find is a glove box�
https://drivetribe.com/p/your-one-an...RGqEJ14PBoVIBg
I feel like going out and buying another 99 996.1
Special cars indeed! If anyone knows of a yellow / black or red / black XAA car for sale or not for sale (cash can be persuasive) lmk please.
No computers? There�s probably 5 or 6 computers in an early 996. A late 2021 race car has no computers? Aren�t all race cars today using some type of data acquisition software in order to compete?
I own a 2020 factory Motorsport car and I can tell you there are a lot of computer stuff happening in that car. Granted you can turn off traction completely but still, new race cars use ALL the technology and then some
There have been computers (ECUs) in 911s since 911 SCs with the introduction of Bosch. You need to qualify that "no computers" statement a little more.
When you get down to it, the early 99 is just another variant in a long run of 911 variations. Where you find happiness along that lineage is subjective and purely in the eye of the beholder.
I wonder how many of them went to Puerto Rico. The original owner probably never used the heated seats. I recently spent 21 days there visiting my 80 year old mother and I can�t imagine driving the car there as I do in Texas. Also the Porsche club there is not too active at all. There was no event in three weeks I was there.
Puerto Rico is United States soil. There are no different emissions regulations there. A Puerto Rico car is a USA car (and not RoW).
I�ve seen three separate VIN analytics sheets and all have shown Puerto Rico/United States. I wouldn�t be surprised if this is simply a decoding function of the VIN and doesn�t actually mean it initially went to PR. That�s likely a good thing because PR as a whole is terribly rough on cars (I lived there and visit family there multiple times a years).
What makes the 99' special? I already owned a 76 911S when I went looking for another 911. I looked long and hard at the 993's, but when compared to the 996, there were several things that attracted me....1) better fuel economy, 2) better AC, 3) lighter, and the big one, 4) My Indie told me he loved them (once you do the usual IMS, rear seal, etc). I was honestly shocked at how low the prices were when I started looking in fall of 2019. (I know, I know, they're up quite a bit from there...) I live in the mountains, and the AWD was a big attraction; with my plain 911, you can't even take the car out when the roads are clear up here (in the winter) for fear of crossing a strip of ice and going sideways. The AWD makes this much less exciting and quite a bit safer. I also wanted "small". I can't stand how big the current Porsches are these days. I like and need "small" because of my mountain roads. (It's actually quite difficult to find a straight stretch of road up here to check your alignment--we are that curvy!) And, from what I can gather, the plain-jane , non-S, Carrera's were the last the small Porsches; the "S" and most of the subsequent models are 6 inches wider. My only criticism of my Carrera 4 is it's ride...it's much stiffer than my 911S. I actually notice the smoothness of the 911S everytime I get back into it. I've heard the 997.* are nicer, but I won't go for the "bigger"....
�the "S" and most of the subsequent models are 6 inches wider.�
No they aren�t� I�m not sure of the difference offhand, but I don�t think it�s even close to 6� (though it may look that way�). I agree about the size of the newer 911�s btw� ridiculously large
996 Turbo and 4S are 72.0"
Wheelbase
92.6 in (2,352 mm)
Length
174.5 in (4,432 mm)
Carrera 4S and Turbo:
174.6 in (4,435 mm)
Width
1999–2001:
69.5 in (1,765 mm)
2002–2004:
69.7 in (1,770 mm)
Carrera 4S and Turbo:
72.0 in (1,829 mm)
Height
51.4 in (1,306 mm)
Carrera 4S and Turbo:
51.0 in (1,295 mm)
40th Anniversary coup�:
50.2 in (1,275 mm)
GT2:
50.2 in (1,275 mm)
I'm sure you're not the first guy to mistake 2.5" for 6"
I have a book about Porsche that was published in 2001. I found this paragraph about the 2000 MY 996 funny, considering the recent buzz about the 1999 MY.
997 is bigger and heavier than 996
991 is bigger and heavier than 997
992 is much bigger than 991; and much heavier than 996
996 is simply the smallest, lightest water cooled 911
And MY1999 is the purest, most analog 996 variant of them all
I had a 2000 cabriolet before getting my �99 coupe. The interior on my 99 is better quality, more resilient, and aesthetically nicer. Oh, and the leather seating material is nicer. But here they tout the extra 4HP�.wow.
I�m not saying anyone is wrong, but it is odd that Porsche changed to cheaper interior materials in response to criticism of the early 996s. Doesn�t make sense to me, but obviously there is a consensus that the earlier cars have aged better
It's like a guy who is 5'6" saying to a guy who is 5'7", "Oh I prefer being 5'6" to 5'7" because it's much easier to fit through doorways"
Fun fact: the 992 GT3 is actually the exact same width as the 991 GT3, a whole 1 inch wider than the 997 GT3, which did most of the growing, a whole 1.5" (!!!) over the 996 GT3. Putting us back at, you guessed it, 2.5 inches in 20 years.
(Hint: talk about the length not width!)
I'm sure an aftermarket exhaust would provide some HP gain, but like anything else, negligible at best. Fister mod I doubt any gains are realized. Same with intakes, headers, cats. Sure there might be some gain, but where would you actually see and feel it?
The '99 mufflers are noticeably quieter/more restrictive than the later models.
I would be comfortable saying the Fister/Gundo mod would free up a few pony's on the top end, but it would probably also loose a few fig newtons of torque on the bottom also.
fab speed exhaust, fab speed x pipe no cats with spacers (big weight reduction), Carrera 3.8 s airbox, huge difference. We just completed this and car with good 285/30 michellins n2 on the 408s rears it can�t hold first gear. Super responsive throttle awesome sound. Try g to see if I can get some soul headers next. Also running some water wetter on the coolant. Anyway love my early 99.
eBay, Cost was 250. Excellent quality.
I'll be around. I'm buying another 99' at some point. Just a different color combo I have my eyes set on. I've learned so much about these cars and love how they drive so much that its fun getting another one and doing it different this time but with the experience.
I thought I would be also with my current 99' but for the next months I'll be focusing on modding my Speed Yellow 996 turbo.
I'll still be around on the forums though.
My car is now listed in the marketplace.
https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1284958
Fiddling with the exhaust makes real power if done completely - Fabspeed headers, exhaust, and catless x-pipe has made a big difference in my car. I have modified the exhaust on all 7 Porsches I have owned, and coupled with a modified throttle body on a few (Which I can't do on my '99 with cable) adds horsepower. The H.P. difference in c2 and c2s are mostly intake related. Engine is an air pump, bigger pipe in and bigger pipe out, blah blah blah
The xpipe has these mini spacers installed and the served as mini cats. I�m in Texas so as long as there is no check engine lights it�ll pass inspection. If In your state they do the dyno type smog, here they used to do those with obd 1, clear all check engine lights and add two 16 ounces bottles of isopropyl alcohol (fuel dryer I used to buy the heat product), the car will have better emissions than when new. I used that trick many times with my 93 corrado and my 85M635CSI BMW. Here are some pics of the x pipe .
The spacers fool the computer as if there was a cat .
Although these two events do chronologically overlap, the warehouse fire affecting supply of M96 blocks, and causing the M96 block porosity / “intermix” warranty claim issue, is completely unrelated the the MY1999 “early-build” production run on the factory 993 assembly line (11/97 - 08/98)
I'm sure its been mentioned here already, but something us early-996 owners in the US all missed out on is the X51 option. I know for a fact there are some cars in Europe floating around that had X51 ticked (a cable throttle X51 engine starts with M96/01S for reference), and even fewer cars in Canada and the US were retrofitted with X51 by dealers.
The 3.4 liter X51 was a bit more special than the 3.6 (M96/03S as used on the 40AE). You get new heads, cams, valves, oil pan baffle, 3rd radiator, intake runners, and exhaust headers on either one, but only the 3.4 gets specially designed pistons.
Correct, I missed those. That all should be on both 01S and O3S. Theres also an additional oil line for cylinder #6 now that I think about it (on both X51s too).
Wow that engine should have standard in all early builds it would have been a perfect compliment to the 996 GT3
does anyone have vin# of those special engines or factory part #�s on the special parts PLEASE
I've got a parts list for 3.4s:
1 - 000 044 100 10 Piston Set
1 - 000 044 100 11 Gasket Set
1 - 996 104 982 01 Cylinder Head
1 - 996 104 983 01 Cylinder Head
1 - 996 110 980 00 Intake Manifold
1 - 996 110 983 00 Intake Manifold
1 - 996 105 991 00 Camshaft
1 - 996 105 992 00 Camshaft
1 - 996 105 996 00 Camshaft
1 - 996 105 997 00 Camshaft
1 - 996 106 037 51 Oil Cooler
1 - 996 107 988 00 Oil Pan
1 - 996 111 991 01 Exhaust Manifold
1 - 996 111 992 01 Exhaust Manifold
1 - 996 575 141 02 Duct
1 - 996 106 665 55 Hose
1 - 996 106 641 59 Hose
1 - 996 106 666 52 Hose
1 - 996 107 980 00 Oil Pump
24 - 996 105 994 00 Cam Follower
2 - 996 110 985 01 Elbow
1 - 996 107 984 02 Hose
1 - 996 573 980 00 Hose
2 - 996 107 221 51 O-Ring
1 - 996 104 995 00 Heat Shield
2 - 900 075 495 00 Bolt Kit
1 - 996 504 485 02 Bracket
1 - 996 504 487 02 Bracket
1- 996 505 553 05 01C Lower Valance
All bundled as kit: 000-044-100-00
Here is everything the kit includes (pic from Techquipment catalogue):
Part numbers for crate motors from Porsche are:
996-840-051-01
996-100-951-01
Unfortunately both seem to be discontinued according to every parts portal I can find. It looks like the retrofit kits are still available, but from what I have read, you really shouldn't be rebuilding a used engine that way, so you would probably have to factor in the cost of re-machining the block and crankshaft into your build, on top of the parts (PCNA wants ~15k USD for the kit) and labor (probably a 6k+ engine rebuild before any refurb work on carryover parts).
As for DME, I remember a thread here from ~2008 where someone was able to get a crated Euro M96/01S into their USA 996 Tiptronic Coupe after their oil pan had an encounter with a speedbump. There is only one DME module for all 996s by production date (so region independent), meaning the DME programming was a direct flash by their Porsche dealer, and the only real problem was that it was set up for European gas. With how far knowledge of the 5.2.2 DME system has come in the last ~13 years, this is probably a pretty simple fix.
edit: Ill fix formatting once Im on a computer, Ive also got a doc with the 2 PNs for complete engines
edit2: Ok, fixed the formatting for the parts list.
I've updated the original post with that info. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it looks like Porsche has discontinued the crate engines, or at least cut them out of the PCNA parts portals. I'd have to check the European parts network to figure out if the situation is the same over there.
I'm personally really interested in doing this myself someday, but given that my car has only ~110k miles on the original engine, no signs of bore scoring, and some more pressing issues to address with my money (namely rust, thanks to the prior MN owner for that
), this is beyond my pay grade for the time being. Best of luck to anyone else looking to do this right now though, if you need more info I've been doing research for the last few months on the subject. I might put a thread up in the 996 technical section for it if people would like a repository.
i would have love that special engine too. Anyone knows if any company makes the aluminum runners?? I still haven�t gotten my car back from the header install. I think they way to go
if you have to rebuild is to go with the 3.8 kit, that should add torque down low.
What do you guys think about getting a pre-99 Euro-spec 996? Does it carry much of the uniqueness of the US market ones?
I'm in Germany for another three years and have been looking at 996's or 987s.
I think it would be interesting to find an early build 996 here and I think the prices are decent comparatively.
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/s...r=false&vc=Car
is there a specific VIN digit I should look for? I�m not sure how to verify a factory tune from a German seller.
it�s not fun dealing with German sellers�
X51 would be the option code indicating factory equipped engine upgrades, it would be listed on the sticker under the front lid or in the original owners manual.
I see a few aero 996s under 30k; but I guess my only concern would be finding one with the X51. These sellers don�t exactly advertise the option from what I�ve seen.
Best you can do is ask for a pic of the build sticker, or hope they have a picture of the front of the car or engine compartment clear enough to tell if it has the center radiator or the aluminum manifolds.
Sellers that have an X51-equipped car will mention it as it is rare and commands a premium in Germany too.
Look for WLS in the advert, which is the acronym for 'Werksleistungssteigerung' i.e. the name for the X51 option code.
Alloy intake plenum is obvious in engine bay pictures and a hint it might be an X51 engined car.
996 Mk2:
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/porsche-porsche-996-c2-gt3-wls-x-51-motor/1480040933-216-4763
Thanks for the hints, guys.
it seems X51 equipped cars will be cheaper to import to Germany than buy here.
also, does the 40th anniversary have the obvious parts as well? I�ve read X51 comes standard, but I�ve seen a few 40th engine bays that don�t seem to have the parts, but may just not have realized what I was looking at.
is this a modification or did German spec 3.4 X51 equipped M96 engines come with the cable throttle pre-8/98 factory fire?
the year registrations for Germany are completely different from how the US allows companies to market model years.
40AE cars included the X51 package from factory so you won't find a corresponding code. They also included sport suspension and an LSD out of the box too. Interior was full leather in natural gray.
Correct - that's a common misconception. One can be added but the nice part is that with the Turbo / 4S front bumper, the car came with the bigger Turbo side radiators which should provide some additional cooling efficiency.
No worries. 40AE is not a code. It's just stands for 40th Anniversary edition of the 911. It was a limited run and came from the factory with many add-ons that were part of the standard equipment and are not listed in the code list under the front hood. I like to call it the 1st GTS, before Porsche used the GTS designation. From factory it came with the X51 power pack, LSD, Turbo front bumper and radiators, full leather interior in natural gray, sport suspension and GT Silver paint.
they do look great! I did see it was absent the center radiator and tried looking for 40th anniversary editions in Germany but they�re all over 60k+ USD. Well out of my price range. I�ve been trying to find a nice or unique 996 with higher mileage for well under 30k. Even considered a project restoration car for less.
I'm assuming you are looking at these cars in Germany and planning to bring them in to the US? If thats the case, you won't be able to bring in a 40AE anyways. Right now no 996s can even come in to the US from Europe. Next year the door opens for MY1998 cars, but very
very
few were sold as MY1998s in the first place. In 2024, MY1999s can come in, and thats where the good stuff is. The bulk of the early 996s are sold as 1999s, and thats also where the 996.1 GT3 starts.
tracking on the 25 year rule� I�m in Germany for another three years at least so not sure where that will go. I�m looking to either buy here or import from the US. I already imported a 991 so I�m familiar with the process.
Not interested in spending over 30k on a euro spec I can�t bring back to the states because then reselling will be a hassle.
Also there�s a lot of model year cross over on the most current NHTSA non-conforming vehicle list.
I have a 3/98 build. Is this a pre-warehouse fire, hand-built alongside the last 993's, weirdo interior materials car? Is there any way to know what actual production number car it is? The last four digits on the vin are 0838.
As an aside - I love the four spoke wheel, because when I am on longer highway drives, I can rest my hand at six o' clock with zero effort or strain.
Thanks!
Isn't 4/98 the first month guaranteed safe from warehouse fires? Not that it really matters now unless its insanely low mileage, coolant intermix should have happened on any car that was ever going to suffer from it.
i also have a 3/98. I don�t know how to tell how early or late the built was. Here is my door built sticker. I do have the better sound system, leather dash, and cool 408s factory on mine, with the 4 spoke steering wheel. I�m already past 99k miles.
I own a triple black cab C2 manual, with hard top, with a 2/98 build date, VIN WPOCA2990XS650114. It only has CO2 listed under option codes but has written in ink RC 1208 and under that U/L 012. It has intermittent wipers and the 993 18-inch hollow spoke wheels. Did some of the earliest cars include the options like my wipers and wheels, but they were not noted on the option code sheet pasted to the underside of the hood? Any idea what the hand-written letter/number combo mean? Thanks.
Yes the wheels have the part numbers for the 408 code. The car is in exceptional condition and there are no marks on the paper to indicate they were worn out. Thanks for the responses.
I don't think he has rain sensing wipers. I don't think that was even an option on the early cars. He said intermittent wipers, which I believe were standard.
DBF, if you have the original owners manual check in there for option codes. I doubt they would have worn off the sticker, so if your owners manual doesn't show anything else, I think you have the least optioned 996 ever, since it has no options. C02, was just the code for a U.S. cat.
My bad. Intermittents were standard on all 996s, thats correct. Would make sense if the 408s were added later be it by an owner or the selling dealer originally.
I checked the owners manual and it has the same sticker as the one under hood the hood. So is it a good or a bad thing that it has no options? Can anyone interpret the VIN? Normally the VIN is sequential indicating mine is the 114th 1999 model year 996 imported to the US, but I thought I read that Porsche VIN sequences may mean something else, like mine is the 114th manual cab imported to the US? Thanks.
Can't answer the VIN question. As for the lack of options, it is strange/unique for sure, but not necessarily good or bad. Since, it has no options you don't have any of the good/desirable ones.
The cat is definitely out of the bag. I got a huge compliment at the liquor store parking lot today. This couple taught the car was from 2011. Anyway like it or not ours cars will be talked about forever. Found this article on PCA tech tips, pretty cool 😎. Long live the 99 cable throttle car.
During my search, I came across a few examples with no options at all. A couple of them were triple black cabs. Some options would add weight but others like the OBC can be turned on and don't add any weight at all.
It's crazy that there are so many no option cars out there! not what I was expecting! I haven't ever even seen a 944 with no options.
I have to agree with GML though, off the top of my head I can't think of any options that really add any weight or decrease value. Plus in a cab weight doesn't really matter, since you aren't seriously tracking it, and they are already heavy.
Oh, actually I thought of a couple... Tip and C4 that hurt value, also no hard top for cabs. And rear wiper is undesirable to most, but I doubt would have any effect on value.
Although my early build (Sept 98) 996 Carrera was a very well built car, except for muffler baffles failing at 4 years, and the main seal leaking, it is no where near the quality of my '07 C4S. It might be the best of the 996s, but can't touch the 997s. IMHO, having owned them both, including a '03 C4S.
Got my 99 Aerokit car for 18k, 50k miles in late 2018. LSD, early build, blah blah all that. Original, arena red, painted console to match.
Drove it daily for about a year alongside my 997.2 C2S, and could never fall in love with it. For all the "coolness" of the textured dash and quirks of the 99, the interior felt fantastically cheap compared to my 997. The leather, the plastics, the fit and finish were 2000s American car grade. It's also not that it was down 100 hp from my 997, but even with gundo it sounded wheezy. My friend made the best comparison (who drove it home 1000 miles with me after I bought it) that I got into a rear engined, manual Acura TL of the same gen. And to be honest, it was a fitting description.
The car was a fantastic value for 18k. Today, the same car is at least ~30k, which feels absurd considering it's a hair less than I paid for my 997.2. Yes - prices are up across the board, inflation and a speculative market where everything somehow is a collectible - but comparatively, I'll pick a high mileage 997 any day for the same price. Those asking 40k for their non GT3, non 4S, non Turbo 996s are smoking crack. Too bad a lot of the buyers are too - but there's an *** for every seat.
Do you happen to have any pictures of the interior? Specifically the painted console? I just posted a thread today trying to find pictures of Arena Red paint matched interiors to figure out how I want to fix my sport seatbacks.
Also, I have to respectfully disagree on the interior being similar grade to an early 2000s American car, unless maybe if you are talking about an Eddie Bauer Ford or something. Furthermore, regardless of the look and feel of the interior, which personally I quite like, the interior in my 3/98 has proven to be incredibly high quality and long lasting. I have never seen a 140k miles 24 year old interior look so good. Not a Porsche, but another German car, the interior in my 2014 C300 was in far more worn and in worse shape by 7 years and 100k miles and I owned it for half of both of those and took very good care of it, and so did the PO.
Also, as far as 996 vs 997 you also have to think about the exterior aesthetics, which I and several others on this board prefer the 996. I also, can't imagine a 996 and 997.1 sound that different considering they both have M9X engines, however a 997.2 absolutely.
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THANK YOU! This is a huge help! My car is the exact same color combo and I was worried about adding a third color being too much, but it doesn't appear to be the case. It looks very nice!
The only thing I wish the car had is better speakers. Maybe the sony option sounds good, but the stock speakers are terrible. The reason I bought the 996 over the 997 is the ability to upgrade the ims bearing. While 997.1 bearings are generally reliable, they are known to go bad.
I'd still take options like the limited-slip differential, sport seats, etc over a no-option car even if its a bit heavier. Of course you can get 408s to make up for that... and those save you on unsprung mass, arguably more important than the meaningless differences in weight between a "no options" car and any other early 1999 996.
Not sure how rare they are. Only anecdotal evidence that while I was searching for my car that I came across a few no-option cars. They�re out there if someone wanted to buy one.
My understanding with the 99�s�.many were forecasted as leased vehicles and dealers opted for few options and many were silver. There are lots of silver 99�s with few options�.including mine. Only option is sunroof. Finding one with factory LSD is rather special IMO. I wish mine had LSD�one wheel wonder is not the best in MN winters. Wishing mine was a C4 after 2.5 years and 30k daily driven miles.
LSD seems like one of those options every sports car, performance car, should have, but I can understand why a base model in any given lineup might not come standard with it. And many people choose the base model because they don�t really want the fastest 911.
My car has LSD, but I don�t think it helps all that much on the track or in the snow. Having both wheels spin in the snow causes the rear end to slide out, requiring countersteer. On the track, I don�t have any wheel spin out of corners, zero oversteer, but maybe under heavy threshold braking the LSD might keep the car more planted in a straight line. But then again, the ADB, which is requirement for 99�s that have TC and LSD, might be more of a factor, although I always turn that stuff off.
I don�t think I have traction control. Here is the sticker as I saved it. I am the original owner. You�ll see a shot of the car the day we got it and sold the Mercedes. Your thoughts?
It had four broken header bolts which didn't help
I get it though, I was disappointed with the sound on the drive home. I swapped out the exhaust for an Afterhours Racing exhaust which ended up being WAY too loud so that was swapped for a 996.2 OEM PSE. Now it's just about perfect but could use 200 cell cats. It's really interesting how small changes in the mufflers can make such a big difference. My dad owns a 2000 C2 with Fister mufflers and none of my three exhaust setups have sounded close to his even though the original Gundo hack *looked* pretty similar to the Fister mod. Maybe it's because my car has headers? Who knows.
I still think a 997.2 with full leather is my sweet spot too but I can't justify spending that kinda cash on a car.
Good to know and kinda makes sense. I hope that ABD is completely disabled if the TC button is pressed (turned off) on the 99, leaving only the LSD for the cars that have it to work on traction.
@bdronsick
- I have my eye on a 9/98 build. Would it be one of the first examples made solely on the 996 production line? Any concerns regarding a 9/98 build I should consider?
Related - This thread is super insightful, thanks for starting it. I sold my '03 C2 a few years ago and these comments are drawing me back to a 996.
How do we know that? I have the full leather seats but not the supple, and it�s rather fragile in the bolsters, have to keep them moist to avoid cracking. I would love some OEM reference.
IMHO the difference between 08/98 & 09/98 is more anecdotal than empirical. Good news your car is well past the "intermix" defective block VIN range, and well before introduction of the disastrous single row IMSB
A sweet spot!
Connolly and Roser historically supplied leather to Porsche prior to 997; but I don't have any "receipts". And if you think your bolsters are fragile you should see a 997's after 25 years in sun (997 leather actually "delaminates" which is even worse than cracking)
IE leather must be cared for whether from Connolly or China; even Rolls Royce bolsters eventually disintegrate if abandoned solely to UV
What typically happens is a fifth or sixth owner buys an 88K 911 from a fourth or fifth owner who left it outside in Miami for ten straight years. Spiderweb-crack city on those front seats and the dash will be peeling like an old onion
A Connolly covered Corniche would be no different
Restoration time
Possibly joining the club here. Got a 1999 6/98 911 Cab on auction. 99,600 miles which is a lot more than I wanted and it had a minor front end damage very early in it's life, but I was really drawn by the basic early 1999s that for a first Porsche, I just went for it. It seems to be in really good cosmetic condition, and has made it almost 100k, so crossing fingers it was driven and wants to drive a lot more! It has all the hood options except the original stereo and sadly, the dealer swapped the 408 wheels out pre-sale (legimatly). I feel though it really needs the OG wheels to complete the amber light package, right??
those wheels look really nice on that car.
I am partial to unmodified cars that match the sticker, and 408s would be cool too... but I think it looks great, actually. Enjoy!
Looks really clean. My 99 has 135M on the body and I drive it pretty much daily. Had the engine rebuilt (updated to 04 specs bored to 3.6 and sleeved) after the block cracked at 85K. After that, I gave up on trying to be so OEM pristine as 996 will never be worth a fortune, most mods I do are reversible anyway, so it's all about just driving a paid for gem of a sportscar. they will never go back to the narrow body manual Ice world again, so love it for less! Love the car and just driving it is my passion. Cable throttle fun!
Random Question that maybe someone already asked about the 99s- If the many of the production materials were the same as the 993 (like the leather) do these cars have the old school Volkswagen Beetle like Porsche smell in the interior that all of the air cooled cars have?
My father drove VW Beetles for decades not one smelled like a Connolly leather smothered 911 (996 or otherwise)
They all smelled like old hydraulic oil leaking from a 1930�s elevator in a decrepit NYC tenement building
Not my experience lol. First time I got in a 911 which was an 84 G body Carrera my first thought was it smelled just like my dads beetle he dove in the 1980s. I�m guessing they shared some materials. Same with a 1994 964 I drove a few years ago
The G Bodies and early 964�s did leak oil horribly. And it smelled yes. A 1994 should not have smelled like oil they fixed those horrible leaks MY1992. And there�s a huge difference in aroma between full and partial leather; any year. FWIW my 996�s smelled like either plastic or leather depending on full vs partial leather.
I don�t think there is such a thing as VW Beetle leather. It was all that hard, fragile, plasticky vinyl.
It�s not just the oil. The air cooled cars just smelled different. Don�t get me wrong I love the way my 996 smells too. It�s definitely pure Porsche. But for me part of the appeal of the air cooled cars is that very undefinable earlier Porsche smell.
must have been the plywood floorboards and cardboard glovebox then
that weird off-gassing + oil sludge residue = air cooled funk
I personally don�t miss it
Welcome! I had a buddy in town visiting and I let him drive mine a month ago. And from there he was hooked and asked me to help him find another early build cab. I followed your auction and sent him a link last week, and he would have been bidding if he had his second parking stall arranged yet.
I am new to the 996, but have 15 years of aircooled VW experience. The 996 smells nothing like an aircooled VW, because 996 is a much modern car and hardly smell of anything (in the interior). Old aircooled VWs smell of a mix of exhaust, oil and gas fumes. To me it was nauseating at first, then I learned to love it. Now I miss it.
But the 996 have a distinct smell of its own. When I drive my car long or drive it hard and park it, it has a very distinct smell from the outside. The Porsche perfume. It smell familiar, but not the same as aircooled VWs at least. I would say it is less exhaust and petrol smell and more the smell of hot oil and hot engine/metal.
I live in Europe, so I don't know how US VWs or old Porsches were spec'ed, but aircooled VWs in Europe came with durable vinyl seats, never leather. Perhaps that added to the smell too, I don't know.
I propose a blind smell test between 1965 VW beetle, 1985 3.2 partial leather Carrera, and 1999 full leather C2
Some C&C should be able to throw this together
results would be very interesting
FWIW my experience:
1985- Old oil, burning oil, and leaking oil
1989 (964)- Leaking oil with hint of leather
1999- Plastics with hint of leather
2003 (Turbo)- Leather and leather conditioner
2015 (Cayenne)- Faded new-car-smell and leather
Favorite is the Cayenne. Somehow intoxicating
Throw in a roll bar and rennline aluminum track mats and you get a slight hint of metal which actually adds to the aura in a positive way.
I guess it's all similar to wine and whiskey tasting.
So I have the chance to buy the original wheels 7.5"x18" and 10"x18" Hollow spoke wheels. They have been powder coated and look great. No tires. $3500. I wanted a 1999 early build and it feels so right to get the matching 408 wheels, but I'm struggling if it's worth the $$$ to try and preserve it's historic integrity or if I should save the money for potential fixes and try and find a cheap set of solid turbo twists (not 408s, but at least keeps the 99' looking 99.
Any opinons appreciated! (not made of money
I'd save your money. The wheels you have look great. Spend money on a set of wheel spacers and it will look like a million bucks. If you plan on being a long term owner, keep an eye out for deals down the road. They always appear when you least expect it.
Everything eventually comes up for sale at a good price. As interest rayes go up, the economy will slow and parts will become available for reasonable prices. Always happens.
Get involved with your local PCA region and get to know the 996, 993 and 986 guys. Do the same with your local indy. You will be surprised how many parts exchange hands for great prices between friends from conversations over a beer or coffee at an event. The only hurry should be to make sure all the right things have been done to your engine for durability and you will be golden.
Just got my 1999 early build this weekend. It doesn't have the OBC stalk. I don't see a TC light (or any button for it-- unless I'm just missing it), and it was optioned with 408s (though sold to me without). The build options are, I don't see a "delete" option..?
L92U
– Arctic Silver Metallic paint
AS
– Black partial leather upholstery
C02
– US emissions equipment
X54
– Stainless-steel tailpipes
X70
– Stainless-steel sill plates
X71
– Aluminum-look instrument dials
139
– Seat heating, left
234
– Internal production code related to tires
340
– Seat heating, right
408
– 18″ Turbo Technology hollow-spoke wheels
424
– CD compartment
436
– Three-spoke steering wheel
437
– Eight-way power-adjustable seat, left
438
– Eight-way power-adjustable seat, right
446
– Wheel caps with full-color Porsche crests
490
– Hi-Fi audio system
537
– Seat position memory, left
551
– Wind deflector
688
– Becker-Porsche CDR-210 stereo
So do I have this (from Page 1 of this thread)?
***
FYI, pair an OBC-Delete with TC-Delete (see #4 above) and you have the "holy grail" of zero-nannies, analog modern 911's in the United States. Find one with #408 "Technology" wheels fitted (see #4 second list just below) and you're likely looking at an ultra-lightweight: "
one-of-one"
Sounds like you picked up a real nice car, and you should post up some pics, but no you do not have what he was describing in that post. He was specifically talking about a car with LSD, but no OBC or TC, which as far as anyone knows doesn't exist. Early 99s didn't come with OBC or TC standard they were an option that came as a package with LSD.
Ok, yes i don't have LSD, but he also says LSD comes standard with TC, so doesn't that mean that: "
FYI, pair an OBC-Delete with TC-Delete (see #4 above) and you have the "holy grail" of zero-nannies, analog modern 911's in the United States
"
is specifically excluding LSD cars? Unless by holy-grail he meant
impossible
... but that doesn't seem likely right?
On top of this it would be real obvious. You'd be able to see things like outside temp, miles left, MPG, Avg speed etc, below your digital speed. Which is what that stalk let's you switch between and reset.
That is what he meant. Being virtually impossible is what would make it almost certainly a one of one. Analog + LSD is kinda considered the Holy Grail by enthusiastic as a whole across all marques.
But also that all 996's are equipped with OBC, they just didn't activate it from the factory. I have it turned on and will be running wires to unused switch locations next to the climate control to cycle the information, otherwise it will show outside temperature as default.
Interesting example build date of 3/98 so would think an early build but has clear not amber lenses, WTF? 😀
Rich
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ar-silver.html
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Same here, triple black! The PO changed the side markers to clear but I've been contemplating putting them back, I think the amber on black is just gorgeous!
I also have clear, that�s funny. I wonder if we have the same car, lol. I have full leather, heated seats, and an LSD. Otherwise pretty standard and 69k miles.
Close but no cigar! I'm at 67k miles and about as base as it gets, best I can tell. At least I got the option that puts the steering wheel on the
correct
side.
Sharing my 5/99 build. Bought it certified pre-owned over 20 yrs ago. Important option for me when buying was the LSD. Perfect for tracking. Just click the TC off and go.
Additions by me right after purchasing:
OEM Aero front and side spoilers
OEM ROW M030 suspension
OEM Sport Exhaust
OEM Short Shift Kit
OEM Console Delete
OEM 3rd Radiator (was added later)
No one knows with 100% certainty. Most of us would assume yes, but Porsche has historically done some wonky mismatching of parts on cars over the years. Especially during mid-cycle refreshes/changes (roughly August through September of 1998 in this case).
Building on this a bit, I guess it also depends on the build date of the specific one you are looking at. Meaning, if it was built early in 1998 (exact month to be debated), then you can probably assume it came with full ambers. Conversely, if it was built in late 1998 or 1999, then chances are it came with full clear.
However, as islaTurbine mentioned, there is no definitive, sure fire way to know exactly what Porsche did and when they did it.
IMHO, they would have matched from the factory. People would swap out the amber tail lights with clear ones because frankly, they were cheap which is not the case for the front headlight enclosures especially when replacing them with true OEM litronics.
I have some questions, my cars build date is 01/98. It's a manual 6 speed, with no tc button, no tc dash lights or anything like that if that was a thing not sure I don't have them. I have no obc lever or thing on the column just turn signal lever, wipers lever and a cruise control lever. Nothing on my IC is digital or has menus of any kind so I assume it's a no obc car. I can easily spin the tires, dump the clutch and do burnouts so I assume I have no tc. My burnouts are also from both rear tires. If I have the car on jack stands, and turn one rear wheel the opposite side will turn with it. If I spin the wheels one direction and go to the opposite side and catch the wheel or try to turn it the opposite way you can't it stops the other side and spins the same direction. I assume that's LSD? What am I missing? Whats the difference between lsd and locking rear diff on the options code master list? Despite all that my sticker under the hood doesn't list much of anything for options. Including LSD or locking rear diff. However there's a ton of option codes on the master list for things my car has that's not listed on the sticker either. Example power mirrors, rear leather seats, rear seat belts and on and on. The only thing I have listed on my sticker for options is 8 way power seats pass and driver. I also have memory seat positions/buttons but don't have that code listed. You started that lsd was always paired with tc but I don't think I have tc I'm pretty certain I don't and I'm pretty certain I have lsd? What I don't have is option codes for anything really. It's a 3.4 cable car, cable trunk releases, came artic silver. Is there numbers I can look for on the car to determine lsd from factory anything differently stamped or tagged anywhere? I'm wondering if option codes were listed on decals if the dealer selected something beyond what the car had as standard. Not sure what was considered standard equipment some option codes state standard somethings like rear seats belts aren't marked standard and I assume they were for any us car but I don't know anything for sure just trying to learn.
Also not sure if this is relevant to anything but I noticed other peoples door tags have GVWR of 4xxxlbs, mine is 37xx. Not sure where the 300+lb difference is on all the 99s who's tags I happened to see or if it means anything that's helpful.
Someone could have installed an aftermarket LSD in your car. The 99�s that I have with LSD also has TC and ABD, 2 other option codes that go along with the LSD.
The car had 2 owners prior to me and it came with paperwork and receipt starting with the window sticker to the last time it had a car fax ran prior to me buying it. Literally have receipts for light bulbs, all dealer maintenance all on schedule all with recites. So I would have a hard time believing they had an lsd put in the car and didn't keep the receipts i have a binder 3 inches thick, original key code cards radio cards, they kept everything.This car must have been built in 1997 to have door tag build date of Jan 98 it must have been started in late 97. There's alot of different things about this car that doesn't add up when compared to other 996s. There's quite a bit of options listed on the original window/dealer sticker that are not on the sticker under the hood as well.
Interesting. You bring up some good points. And also some head scratches (not red flags, but suspect info maybe). Perhaps a call into Porsche to see what they have to say? Can you post the options you have listed? Maybe some folks here will know.
Specific items listed on the window sticker are not necessarily considered "options" as many were included as standard equipment depending on the model ordered. If you can post up a picture of the window sticker and the sticker under the front hood it might help explain the descrepancy.
Enjoying the passionate �Vive La difference� discussion. I have the granite gray as well. Here�s my window sticker and I�m the original owner.
Today
When i got the car
When the value was so low for so long I decided to stray from original and went for reversible mods and so it�s a modded a bit. I drive it passionately and enjoy the manual aspect to the hilt. Coilovers, Fister hacks, and RSS mounts have made it the fun machine for sure. Was rebuilt w updates and bored with nickies to 3.6.
So you lived thru the "go-no-go" era and all the new versions of the RMS as well. Love to hear the story on the mods and engine rebuild someday. I do believe that the longer someone has owned a 996, the more they appreciate it. Not to mention appreciation for all of the innovation and solutions that have been developed for the M96 over the years.
Im going to go through all the paperwork i have and research it because my knowledge is limited, and try to learn what was considered standard why some things that have option codes listed on the master list appear on my car but not on the decal under the hood. Example my window stickers list a write up about the LSA rear end with adjustable rear tow which i think is standard on all 996s and came from the 993 but not certain, or as to why its mentioned. It also has 17" wheels mentioned on the left side but on the right side i have an installed options list with m30 sports suspension and 4131 18" light alloy wheels and other items. But none of these things are on the sticker under the hood. But were on car when I got it. Not to sure about the m30 suspension or how I would know. I have coilovers now. It's all sort of irrelevant (not oem car anymore ) I did keep almost all of my oem parts there's somethings I did not keep. The lsd is what I'm wondering about the most I was looking for any info about possible serial numbers or tags or ways in which the factory may have labled the cars that had them. I'll post up what I find about my car as I go. I'll have questions once I start going through the paperwork. The original owner must have been an accountant or something because he kept records for everything lol I'm still in contact with the 2nd owner and we both just keet up the ritual of receipts and records because the original owner did such a great job of it, it only made sense to continue it, there's alot of paperwork.
Well, thanks to this thread, I was inspired to revisit the issue of the build date only to discover that according to the sticker in the door jamb,
my car was actually built in 12/98
, not Nov 99 as I had mistakenly thought! It never had amber, but as you can see in the window sticker on the earlier post, most everything else.
It's refreshing to begin to finally appreciate the car beyond how it drives which I have always loved. Narrow body all the way. The story of its creation is fascinating and even hotly debated. Pinky Lai and the other designers in there slugging away to make it real. My engine suffered a crack in the cylinder wall early on and Porsche comped me a motor, but the second time it did it at 85K, I rebuilt and updated to 2004 specs with L&N nickel. Tough call as the value of that thing was SO in the tank. It was an emotional decision. After that it felt blueprinted. Replaced seats and other interior parts that were wearing thin but kept it full leather. Yeah, it's got the door dings and usual wear but nothing feels better on PCH with the top down (and a non-alcoholic beer). Kind of went full on "PCA heretic" and rebadged it a few months ago. So it's just fun right now. You can always go back.
I also noticed you GVWR is 3957 where as most are 4xxx. Mine is only 37xx that too makes me curious as to what the differences are. I understand yours is a cab, and mines not so our weight differences are self explanatory but I dont see why my gvwr is 600 or more lbs less than the other carrera 2s that seems like too much of a weight difference to be a mistake there's got to be some major differences in equipment one would assume. 600lbs is alot of weight. I'm also very cautious about listing my vin on public forums, maybe because I'm in the used car business and delt with more cars than the average person but I have had 2 vehicle vins stolen/ cloned that were used on stolen vehicles. So I caution anyone about listing there vins so openly because it does happen and is a hell of a process and nightmare to get your vin cleared. I use to laugh when people covered thier license plate in photos. Now I'm figuring Jesus it couldn't hurt lol. The less exposure the better.
Thanks for the advice on the VIN. I'd love to know too, what does GVWR stand for exactly? I'd guess relates to curb weight in some way and mines a C2 Cab. It may also be adding the optional hardtop to the C2Cab makes it heavy as well? The sub structure of a convertible is much beefier than a coupe.
Yes in our cars but if you scroll through these threads and look at the tags posted by other users you'll see almost all of them are anywhere from 43xx to 47xx for GVWRs. Other than your car I only saw one below 4xxx. Your cars a different model than mine so yes it weighs a little more that's self explanatory. I'm more curious about the other carrera 2 coupes that have much higher gvwrs on the tag. Presumably weigh much more than mine/and or rated for much more weight as mine. Not saying ones better than the other just trying to understand the lable process off these early cars because if you read my questions regarding my car I believe mine is a no tc, no obc, factory lsd car which is said not to exist or they haven't found one yet. And most of these post are relying on what the car stickers say under the hood as the definition of what came on the car from the factory. However like I said my frunk sticker doesn't list anything other than my seats. But my car and window sticker and paperwork list more options. Most of the physical things on my car aren't listed as options on the frunk stickers but are listed as options with codes on the 996 master list and aren't marked as standard equipment. So I don't think that all options were put on the early cars frunk stickers. My paperwork says I had sport suspension 030 its not on my frunk sticker. The car came with the 408 18 inch wheels not on the frank sticker. On the window sticker the car says 17 inch wheels on the left side as standard equipment than on the right ride they're labled as 18 inch 4131 light weight alloy wheels under installed options on the right side of the sticker with 030 sport suspension. Once again not on the frunk sticker. I'm planning on going through all the paperwork I have this week I have only skimmed it and can't remember the sale dates. But I'm also curious about if my car has a build date of Jan 98, was presumably started in 1997. Where did the car sit for over a year before being sold new in the USA as a 1999? Wondering if they sat around for a year or what was happening with them. Is it possible that after they were built and sitting there could a dealer in the USA order it with additional options added at the factory but not to the frunk sticker as it's already been built . I mean where would a dealer in the USA get sport chassis and light weight wheels to be added under dealer options? He wouldn't get then anywhere but the factory. I assume they were added after the car was marked and stamped built in Jan 1998.
If my memory serves me, the dealer I bought it from had an inventory list of cars allocated, like triple blk C2, set to be built and a date when it would arrive, and you ordered what you wanted piggybacking on that TBD car. I may be wrong, but that's what I recall. In my case, BBS rims, Hi-fi etc. Custom colors took longer. Still mad I did not get heated seats. I don't believe they did wheel swapping at that time locally. I'm sure someone else could fill in the blanks or correct me. Funny, the salesman who I bought it from STILL works there. Those vets would totally know this.
In addition to the wheels i have some paperwork from Porsche regarding one set of coded wheel bolts with serial numbers. Basically looks like wheel locks to me but for whatever reason it's separate paperwork. I also have key code cards , radio cards, and a card that's all in German with a different number on it and I believe that number is what i used I used to program the keys to the Imobilizer when I bought it 4 almost 5 years ago. It didn't start or run the keys had gone dead and battery dead. Hasn't been a problem ever since. Still using the original keys. I'll probably start going through everything as soon as I'm home because my interest is peaked to full curiosity now lol.
It will be kind of hilarious if it turns out to be a true no tc no obc factory lsd (rare car) considering all the changes I did to it lol. When I first got it I was so excited and took alot of abuse online being told it was junk and 996s won't ever be anything aren't real 911s bla bla. I bought a 997 S and 991 4s within a few months of buying this 996 because I loved the 996 so much I thought I would like the newer ones so much better. Well I still have the first 911 I ever bought, this 996 and I don't have the other 2. So to each thier own. Didn't know than what I know now, it's always been so much more engaging to drive. It's fun at every speed, and didn't cost much money at all mine was literally almost free. I didn't know why when I had all 3 cars and was new to all of them. Why the newer ones didn't give me the joy the first one did. It's definitely the annalog, mechanical drive that my 996 has the newer ones didn't. I have never been in an aircooled 911 but I'm sure I would love them for the reasons I love my 996. I have a friend that has 2 early 996 cable driven no tc no obc cars in the UK and says its night and day to the newer 996s he's owned he prefers them for the same reasons. I spent alot of time making this one my version of what I wanted out of a driver so no doubt it's special to me, ruined to others. Treasure to me, trash to others. Its Even lighter, even quicker, upgraded, updated, suspension transformed it, to find out it's rare or special from the beginning would just be icing on the cake for the abuse I took defending it, loving it. The knowledge learned about the annalog and lighter car has already justified why I did prefer it whether I knew it or not. Regardless I think we all love our 996s. Some maybe a little more fanatical about them for thier own reasons but to all the 996s people who love them 🍻🤘🏁
https://youtube.com/shorts/DWBx-yGenOs?feature=share
Your car is awesome, and I felt the same way after years of abuse and said "if it's that worthless what's the harm of modding it? You've done far more, I'm into updating the look and like you love driving the thing. The early build aspect is truly the icing like you say and other than the OBC computer, it is stripped of all nanny gear. I did the silver console as well with granite accents.
[QUOTE= But I'm also curious about if my car has a build date of Jan 98, was presumably started in 1997. Where did the car sit for over a year before being sold new in the USA as a 1999? Wondering if they sat around for a year or what was happening with them. Is it possible that after they were built and sitting there could a dealer in the USA order it with additional options added at the factory but not to the frunk sticker as it's already been built . I mean where would a dealer in the USA get sport chassis and light weight wheels to be added under dealer options? He wouldn't get then anywhere but the factory. I assume they were added after the car was marked and stamped built in Jan 1998.[/QUOTE]
All early 996's destined for the North American market were sold as 1999 models regardless of build date. Your car did not sit anywhere for a year, it was built at the factory in January of 1998 and shipped/sold in the US as a 1999 model, probably sometime in March/April of 1998. You can run your VIN here for a nominal fee to see the actual build day and invoice to dealer date:
https://vinanalytics.com/
The descrepancies from your under hood sticker and window sticker might also be explained with this report. If the options on your window sticker do not show up on this report then there is a good chance they were possibly added at the dealership.
Absolutely worth it...it's basically the same as a Porsche COA for a fraction of the price. It gives you everything on record in the Porsche database including S/N's of your engine & trans installed at the factory, DME S/N, build day, invoice date, etc. It also lists all standard equipment installed and options including any "Sonderwunsch" or "Werk1" diversions.
If you have factory LSD you should have options 220 (40% locking LSD), 222(Traction Control) and 224 (Active Braking Differential) on your frunk options sticker. I'm no expert, but from what I've read if you have 220 then you also have 222 and 224. Mine has all of those, along with the switch on the dash for TC and the indicator light in the cluster. If you have the functionality of an LSD, but not the option code on your sticker nor the button on the dash then likely it's an aftermarket one, or at least added after delivery. Mine no longer works, anyway, have to replace it with something else :-P
As far as I know, all cars had the OBC, but if you didn't buy the option then it's not turned on in the computer and you didn't get the fourth stalk. If you want to enable it you can have the functionality turned on with a Durametric (and the outside air temp will show up below the digital speed), install the fourth stalk and run a couple of wires into the cluster. I have all the parts for mine, I just have to get it installed :-)
Well, I did it. Half of the options were in German (thanks, Google translate).
I didn't really find anything I didn't already know, except for these two funny sounding options:
661 TIGHTENED EXHAUST CONCEPT
032 RAISED CHASSIS
Oh, and I know my gearbox SN now, too!
032 = Touring Suspension (higher suspension to meet American lighting regulations)
661 = Stricter Emission-Control Concept (also for the American market)
Dang, and here I was thinking I had one of those rare "Monster Truck" options!
Thank you for the translation. It also confirms I don't have the LSD option, which is what I figured.
Oh, cool, good to know. Yeah, it's all there. Once you enable it and it shows the temp you just need a way to scroll through the other options. I guess the nav will do that if you don't have the stalk.
So help me understand, do I have an" astronomically rare find? " 1999 996 build date 3/98 coupe, manual US car, arena red/savana beige, Amber reflectors, cable throttle. only options listed are co2 288 425,437,438,490,537,892(cant seem to find it) so no traction control, or LSD, or OBD computer, no button on dash, no 4th lever. 4 pronged sterring wheel, thin vinyl head liner, buffalo dash, granite plastic, 72,000 miles, clean Blackstone, IMS being done now. I just signed up for the early 996 registry. email is
rweswilson1@***.net
Thank you
I�m guessing that your car is rare only due to the fact that it�s an early build unit. Possibility of the color combination being somewhat limited. Options are pretty common.
Excellent insights that resolved all my head scratching at the innumerable posts talking of poor 996 build quality... I just don't see it in my car, especially with the plush leather seats that 1/4 Century later are still... well, 'plush leather seats'! ...some thanks due to 'Learthique' which is now part of my wife's nightly beauty routine.
But I digress...
My question to the forum — with full disclosure as a jilted lover with a
12/98
C4 cabriolet that missed the "...early build...' club badge by 3 months: Was it really a quality cliff post 9/98? Everyone turning up to work on 1st October was told to get
ALL
components from the cheap-and-cheery storeroom B from now on, not the good stuff in Storeroom A... and your annual bonus is now based on productivity, not quality! Or was it more of a gentle decline to that rattly rubbish that left the factory for MY2000 and beyond — even returning to the ho-hum round-eye 911s?
If I understand correctly, when Porsche shut down for the month of Sept '98 they closed the prior factory and then reopened in Oct '98 in a completely new factory.
Porsche could not have shut down the factory in September 1998, because my '99 Carrera was built Sept 13th, 1998. I took factory delivery of my car in October 1998.
So that provides a decent explanation for more automation at a set date. However, did the skilled labor force lose their jobs, or move their skills and penchant for quality to the new facility? Did the components literally get run down to the last quality part at the closing facility and everything was new (and cheaper) at the new facility with a 100% supply chain switch-out? Was everything suddenly fully-automated, or was there some hand-built transition as new systems and procedures were brought on line?
As a systems engineer, I struggle to see a high-risk 100% cut over to live production pulled off in a single day� either some of the coveted �early builds� would have seen increasing automation shipped from the new facility (pre old facility closure), or that transition would occur at the new facility� with lots of quality control checks and likely bringing full-automation online over a protracted period � sub-system by sub-system. But then I work in aerospace, not the automotive industry, so maybe it�s different.
Would love to hear some first hand accounts from those who participated in the transition. Maybe that�s a book missing from my shelf that every other Porsche 996 owner has read cover-to-cover as they face palm at my naivety
All 996�s were built like German tanks
The difference is Porsche kept downgrading interior plastics from Y2K all the way through 997
The earliest 996�s have the best materials, but they�re all finely built
Look how many 996�s are still on the road with original, un-rebuilt engines. Some nearing 1M miles, with zero leaks and zero rust!
(typically air-cooled 911�s must be rebuilt well before 100K miles, most leak oil like sieves, and all of them rust)
There was never any 911 built this well
and there never will be again
The notion of a "clean" cutover is absolute rubbish. There's documented history on numerous Porsche models that mix "early" and "late" parts as the production line transitions over. The 996 isn't any different and anyone who tries to state otherwise without verifiable proof is simply....ahem.....wrong. My proof is my 9/98 XAA car: it has lots of early features (granite interior coating, vinyl roof, no "Made in France" wing embossment, etc.) and some late features (clear headlights and taillights).
There have been numerous myths perpetuated over the years regarding the so called "early builds". In reality, like all auto manufacturers, Porsche continually tweaked production of the 996 to address quality issues and find savings. Adrian Streather penned the book 996: The Essential Companion which addresses many of these myths. Porsche did not close any production lines in 1999, they merely halted production in the late summer as they did every year and still do to this date. Most of Europe shuts down factory production for several weeks each summer to accommodate employee holidays. Regarding the quality of materials, there were some decisions made to enhance the interior of the 996 but these materials used turned out to be less durable over the long term. Many believe these were cost cutting measures but at the time there was no intention to use cheaper materials, only to begin differentiating the 996 from the 986 due to buyer feedback. Adrian's book is an excellent read and highly recommended for those who want to have an indepth understanding of the 996 and it's evolution.
I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. Unless I'm mistaken, Porsche used that time off in the late summer of 1998 to facilitate the transition to a new assembly plant when everyone returned from holiday.
When production resumed in Sept '99 it was on the exact same assembly line in
Zuffenhausen
as the 993 and all previous versions of the 911. It was the Boxster model that transitioned to a new production line in Finland under contract with Valmet.
Ok all this back and forth with tidbits has got me all confused, and I was working for Porsche Dealerships not long after all this....
So someone who actually knows all the timeline please clarify the following...
1 How many production lines were there for 996 and where were they
2 what months did they assemble cars
3 how may production lines for 986 and where were they
4 what months did they assemble cars
5 exactly what month did the engine plant fire for m96 happen that cause all the engine machining equipment to be moved and production to get behnid that resulted in the "sleeving" of the factory engines that caused early problems.. ( that have by now all been corrected, unless you have a "time capsule car" )
8/98 is the last known month for the amber lenses that are indicative of early-build
But it�s not like the clear lenses (or anything else) are of any less quality
That line of reasoning is just absurd
All 996 is a timeless and iconic 911 treasure. The dawn of Porsche�s modern age
And the only 911 to win Overall at LeMans. Ever
As the very first post in this thread suggests, there are a number of variables that are used to differentiate "early" 996.1s from the rest of 996.1 production. You say that "the notion of a clean cutover is rubbish," but I think that language does a disservice to the significance of 8/98 to the 996.1 production run. If "the notion of a clean cutover" means that every single variable discussed in this thread switched from its "early" type to its "non-early" type on the same exact date, then yeah -- agreed, there may not have been a clean cutover.
But as I understand things, the significance of 8/98 is basically three-fold:
Every car built in/before some date in 8/98
has
all of "
the early stuff."
"The early stuff," while it may not have all been uniformly discontinued in exactly 8/98, vanishes very quickly in cars produced after 8/98.
Relatedly, cars built in or after 9/98 will possibly have some of, but will not have all of, "the early stuff."
In other words, relative to the idea of "early production," it looks to me like there are three categories:
Early
-- Built in or before 8/98, and has all of "the early stuff."
Mixed
-- Built shortly after 8/98, and may have some of "the early stuff," probably as remaining "early" parts were used up during the transition. Your car seems to be in this category.
The Rest of '99
-- Built "late enough" in '98 or '99 that none of "the early stuff" is present any longer. I would roughly guess that 10/98 is "late enough." Did any 11/98 builds have ambers from the factory, or a vinyl headliner, or the color-through granite, or any other typically early features? I've seen no evidence for this.
Curious to hear your thoughts!
Good stuff. I'd just point out that, if Porsche had planned to begin phasing out "the early stuff," it would make sense to allow the traditional August holiday to serve as the boundary line -- especially since some of "the early stuff" does indeed appear to have experienced a "clean cutover" between 8/98 and 9/98. This is admittedly a little speculative, but aligning the transition with a nice, long break would allow Porsche and its suppliers extra time to make sure any "must-have non-early items" were available in sufficient supply for the 9/98 changeover. An example that comes to mine is radios -- The 993-era C(D)R-210s end abruptly in 8/98, and the C(D)R-220s start abruptly (with different option codes) in 9/98.
I am by no means an expert in Porsche history or facts, but here is my take on your questions based on research over the years:
1. All production 911's regardless of variant were/are assembled on the line at Zuffenhausen. I am not aware of another production line for 911's. I have seen pictures of 993's & 986's, & 996's coming down the production line at the same time in '97.
2. Assembly months are typically Sept - July each year. August may have some limited production before flipping over to the new MY. September each year is normally when the following MY cars begin production. I say normally, but this was not the case with 996 models designated for NA, they began production in January of '98 and were marketed/sold as '99 MY cars.
3. 986 production began at Zuffenhausen and was subsequently contracted out to Finland (Valmet) to keep up with demand. In 2012 Porsche moved production for Boxsters/Caymans from Finland to Osnabr�ck under contract with Magna Styer. Today, the 718 is assembled in Zuffenhausen.
4. I can't say for sure regarding 986 production in Finland, but expect similar timetables as per question #2 based on MY.
5. I don't know enough about the fire to comment, but I have read some of your previous posts regarding this issue.
Also, the comments/speculation about "early build" models on this forum focuses on the NA market cars. Porsche manufactured approximately 2000 ROW 996's before they even began production of the NA models. Clear headlights were circulating on ROW cars in early '98, so trying to pin-point cut off dates between early & late is mostly a futile effort.
Feel feel free to add to, correct, or dispel any of this information.
Good post, gbarron.
With regards to it being a NA market thing I agree and want to add that MY98 existed for RoW and was designated as such in the VIN by the letter W.
In my view those 'early MY99' US models follow the same build spec (available interior and exterior colours and such) as 996 MY98 RoW.
Adrian Streather writes something along the lines of "early 996 were hand-built alongside the 993' etc and makes it sound as if that in itself is very special and differentiates those early 996 coupes from ones built at a later date while indeed it is to be expected since final assembly is still to this day a part of car production that is done by human hand.
I hope I didn't cause offense, none was intended.
My point was related to this idea -- and I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, just trying to add some detail. Based on all the examples and counterexamples I've come across, the following seems to be true -- that there appear to be three distinct phases of US-market 996.1 production as far as this "early" idea is concerned:
Early
-- US-market cars built in or before 8/98 left the factory with all of "the early stuff."
Mixed
-- US-market cars built shortly after 8/98 may have left the factory with some of "the early stuff," but not all of it.
The Rest of '99
-- US-market cars built "late enough" in '98 or '99 left the factory with none of "the early stuff." I would roughly guess that 10/98 is "late enough."
In other words, yes -- agreed that the 996, like many other Porsche models, mixes "early" and "late" parts. From what I can see, the mixing phase seems to have occurred somewhere in the neighborhood of 8/98 and ~10/98 as far as the 996.1 is concerned. The point of making this distinction is to counter the feeling that 996.1 production was just one big gradient, with different mixes of parts being used in cars throughout the production run, and no real discernible pattern at any point in time. From where I sit, it looks like there were three well-defined patterns, as expressed by the bullet points above.
I would be delighted to hear about US-market counterexamples to those three bullet points. I arrived at those bullet points by looking at a great many individual cars, but I'm always open to revising a theory in the face of new evidence. (For full disclosure, I should say that I'm generally skeptical of the claim that a pre-8/98 US-market car without ambers proves something. Swapping ambers for clears is easy and was all the rage for many years.)
And to gbarron's and hardtailer's points, RoW 996.1s are a bit of a mystery to me and may not follow the patterns I'm describing. Affirmative that RoW cars seem to have had clear lenses prior to US-market cars -- I've seen that too. I don't have much experience with RoW cars, and what I have written is meant to be about US-market models only.
1999 Carrera only regarding option 220/Traction Control /lsd option code/ traction control consists of two separate items, Active Brake Differential (ABD) and Anti Slip Regulation (ASR). When one of the rear wheels begins to lose traction, the ABD applies the brake to that wheel. If both wheels lose traction, the ASR reduces engine power until traction is regained. The Traction Control switch on the dash turns off the ASR, but not the ABD. The ABD is always in effect until you reach 65 mph, at which time it automatically deactivates. Because the ABD is always in effect and is applying braking not under your control.MY99 From the tech manual
The LSD on a MY99 is only 40%.To get the engine�s power safely to the road in a standing start, slip is limited to 40 percent. Once under power, the slip factor changes to 60 percent because the engine no longer is operating at its maximum torque and also because this configuration helps minimize oversteer under load changes through a turn. TC was only around for the C2 in MY99. Traction Control (TC) is a combination of anti-slip control (ASR) and Automatic Brake Differential (ABD). TC prevents spinning of the drive wheels when moving off and accelerating. It does this through a series of sensors (also used by the ABS system) and controlling individual wheel braking. By doing so driving stability and traction are improved over the entire speed range. PSM includes the functions: ABS, Traction Control (TC), ABD, MSR (engine drag torque control). ABD is part of TC and was not sold separately - together they formed the early version of PSM. The official name (in the Porsche parts list) for option 224 is "Automatic Limited Slip Differential". There are no parts in the parts list that identify with a M 224 label - so what is it? ABD. Technically the option 220 "Locking Differential 40%" is also "automatic" since the multiple-disc limited-slip differential causes locking when one wheel begins to slip. This is the mechanical LSD you all know. Its not like a possi traction rear end, it works off of computer parameters that involve braking or power reduction all of which is out of the drivers control. The one to have is the MY99 without TC option , no TC button, no power reduction no computer braking. Your foot and your foot only controls the power to the wheels no matter if its spinning 1 or 2 tires at any speed you're in control of the power.
99.9% of the " Porsche enthusiasts" have it wrong the one you want is that one if you're an Annalog guy, track car guy.That does not have have a traction control button on the dash because it does not have traction control, there is no computer system or limiter reducing power to the wheels or braking, spinning or not. Cars equipped with TC hence the TC on off button will reduce power to the wheels on or off during certain conditions listed above. The throttle cable cars with no TC button , spin the tires until you let off the pedal. There is no driver aids and This was the only year it was possible to have a truly Annalog optioned watercooled 911. The lsd option that was paired with the TC button is another form of power reduction/limited-slip that works on a 60/40 power split explained above . The no tc, no tc dash button 6 speed manual cars could have came with the getrag G96 with mechanical limited-slip rear differential that works like a possi traction rear end, if you know how a limited-slip rear differential works you can easily know if your car has it or not with your rear tires off the ground and trying to spin them in opposite directions. Theres no option code associated with that transmission/ diff combination but if the car was ordered this way it could be on the window sticker mentioned with LSA / rear suspension. This was the only 100% Annalog Watercooled 911 option combination produced, and also the lightest Factory street legal Watercooled 911s ever produced. Lighter than the 996 GT3, which is also egas, computer/ power out put controlled. The first 3649 were hand assembled. I have a no tc, no obc, no egas, no psm, throttle cable m30 suspension , option 408 wheels , getrag 6 speed with mechanical limited-slip rear differential ordered and built late 97 stamped Jan 98 With all of the paper work from order to present day. They're very rare, very different raw driver type cars truly a unique feeling from any other 996.
I used to want the 99 with the 220 option until I learned what else the 220 option added. That�s why I love mine. Main option is 408, not much else. Feels light on its feet and my goal is to shed weight where I can without gutting the car
I wonder why when I press to disable TC on my 99, the rear tires will just spin and spin if I let it? I�ve tested this on slippery conditions (snow/ice) and also on the track. My car has ABD (224), ASR (222), LSD (220) option codes.
I�ve been trying to raise awareness for years how singularly unique the early 996 actually was. Glad to see some of this information is finally taking hold in the community at large
First drive early 2K, I knew there had never been any Porsche quite like this one. And there hasn�t been anything else quite like it since
Perhaps you'd be willing to clarify a few points in your post that I put in bold.
What's your source for the statement that ABD is always active (up to 65mph)? The experience of
Mike Murphy in post #1077 and my personal experience seem to suggest otherwise.
The option code M220 on a 996 with BOSCH 3 or 4 channel ABS 5.3 (this is the single relevant criterion) has 22% locking rate under throttle and 40% when coasting or braking. With BOSCH 5.7 ESP/PSM it is less.
I wonder where you're getting the statement from that 'slip is limited to 40%'?
You make it sound it has something to do with the locking ration of the LSD which doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.
If anything it would be ASR (german acronym, badly translated with the word anti-slip regulation as the correct translation of 'AntriebsSchlupfRegelung' would be 'tractive slip control') that limits the amount of wheel spin when accelerating in order to prevent power oversteer.
Increasing the threshold to 60% 'once under power' begs the question 60% of what? It would reduce directional stability further, which seems strange to do once travelling faster...
I'm afraid the bit in italics is incorrect. The M220 mechanical LSD, as the name suggests, works without a computer, brake actuation or reduction of engine power.
If anything the control algorithms within the Bosch 5.3 module denoted by M222 ASR and M224 ABD would fit that description.
Apparently this has a deposit already. I thought it might have option 408 from the pictures but I can�t see it on the build sticker. So maybe not. Great to see such a nice example - nicer than mine for sure!
I have an early build slate grey metallic 99. This color was a hold out from the 993 era apparently. It also has the �sparkle gray� interior. The leather still looks brand new, which could be due to the higher quality of leather for this build. Definitely a great car and well built.
Only disagreement I have is the amber on headlights looked awful to me, but was an easy fix.
Hey Guys i actually purchased that car and it arrived to me here in NJ a couple of days ago. Getting the wheels refinished and front and rear bumpers resprayed. Im new to the 996 game, how special is this car? i actually downloaded the options and it seems stacked.
anyone know where i can have the original sticker re printed? Whats confusing is i paid $10 to get this online company to print one but i dont see the sports suspension package and painted seats on it.
Looking at the sticker I see built in 07/98 and X in the VIN left of the S makes it a MY1998 by Porsche nomenclature.
Edit: as pointed out below by Porschetech3 the X designates MY99, not MY98.
I've read somewhere (perhaps in Adrian Streather's Porsche 996 The Essential Companion) that 996 manufactured before 9/98, which is the start of MY1999, were nonetheless and for whatever reason considered/declared as MY1999 for the North American market by Porsche.
Yours would be an example of this and also be denoted an 'early MY99' with the Amber indicators, 4 spoke steering wheel etc. (See opening post on this thread).
�early build� what you have were built in 98 for model year 99. I�m sure someone will be happy to give the specifics, if it�s not already somewhere in this thread.
The vin analyser and hardtrailer have a glitch in them,,,
...It is a 99 model, the "X" means its a 99 model, all the car sent to the US were registered as 99 models even if they are built early in 98....
Its because ROW cars are identified by "build dates" whereas US and Canada cars are identified by "model year designation" ( regardless of build date) in the vin #'s, and such this can be used as a Marketing tool by MFG's...
Reading back through the thread again. I know the OP had quite a time throwing mud up against the whole "CEO was a big liar and thief.. and, Porsche AG wasn't really in financially bad times, yadda yadda yadda" wall.
I thought I'd add this article from the Porsche pressroom for others to read. (attached pdf)
Irregardless if you think there was market manipulation by the Porsche CEO or not, the fact is Porsche retired the aircooled engine for a reason and moved to newer engine technology. The 996 concept was shared with the Boxster 986 and that didn't come without growing pains. The engine platform also continued into the 997 generation.
Hey all MY99 owners... I noticed something very unique that I've never noticed on my Mk2 996 cars. Porsche etched the VIN# on all the glass. I didn't know that!
For those that know about it, did they continue it or is it a unique thing for the MY99 cars?
VIN etching was usually a dealership upsell -- probably not done by Porsche at the factory.
My 99 has VINs etched in the windows but there is a mistake on one window and they had to cross out the incorrect digit.
The original post says that TC was an option on the '99 but later talks about TC delete, making me think TC is there by default and needs to be deleted. I have a 10/98 build with no option code for TC and no button on the dash for it. It'll happily let me spin on the track (trust me, I know :-> ). So, AFAIK I don't have traction control. Would there be an option code on the sticker if it had TC? How do I know for sure? I've had one or two people mention they thought all of the 996's had some sort of TC/PSM when I tell them mine is a no nannies car (save ABS).
I'm with you. Purist "no nannies" is no OBC at all. Very rare. From what I understand, our 99 cars do not have TC/PSM unless there is a button for it. I have spun mine out, and there was no divine intervention.
Thanks for making the list, and to someone who has been beaten up for 14 years for owning one, it's a breath of fresh air if nothing else. The truth is in how the manual experience feels when you are driving the car. It's a turning point in the DNA of Porsche and in context, a step forward with the biggest redesign of all time of that legacy. Show me a review of how bad it drives compared to previous, you won't find it. It's a GREAT daily driver as it was designed to be. Are there cheap aspects, yeah. I've heard it all, but none of that matters when I'm driving it, as all I see is the road! Thanks again.
Just reading that the leather is Connolly hide, may I ask, how do you know this specifically?
I own a October 1997 built 996 Carrera and I am learning all these great things about it as I read...
Like I�ve said many times in the past, about lots of things. I�m no expert on anything, looks to me the shift **** and boot trim are .2 items, as well as the p brake lever. If you have an option code sticker, underside of the frunk or the original books, that will tell you the options. Unless it was a dealer install thing,,,,
Totally agree on this '99 car thread.
I am 50 and have owned a 71 2.2T, an 74 MFI 2.7 Carrera, a 930, and a 914.6 GT (3.2). When I got my October 1997 built 996 Carrera manual (Silver with Graphite interior), I was amazed at how it drove. This is by far the most capable of the cars I have ever owned... super nimble, revvy, and very good in the corners. I have the 408 option wheels, no TC, no OBC, cable throttle, side airbag delete, 993 headliner, 993 CDR-21 with 'Sound Package', full leather throughout (that is every surface), and a sunroof. I have the amber lenses (that I adore) and the oval taillights. Car has Fister mod, and 993 RS engine mounts .... I ADORE it ... and can't imagine not owning it. Feels as tough a a brick, and genuinely turns heads in this modern age. The new 911 is 1,600KG, and literally twice the size.
Hear ye, hear ye,
I have a 10/97 built 996 Carrera Manual, no TC, cable throttle,, no side airbags, and no OBC. I have full leather (every surface) and the 993 headliner and 993 CDR-21. It was delivered new with 18" Technology 408 code wheels that I am now having restored. I added 993 RS engine mounts and WOW ,,,, this is a corner hugging missile. I have had many early cars, and the 99 996 is a GEM of a driver. Very light, and super nimble. Extremely happy with mine, never to be sold.
Love the thread, keep up the great work!
I wouldn't consider the On-Board Computer to be a nanny in any sense. All the 996.1s have the OBC -- it just may not be enabled in the instrument cluster (and have the 4th stalk). The OBC has no impact on how the car runs or drives. It only adds display of the outside temperature, mileage, and an optional speed limit warning.
Don't forget...
"Range on Remaining Fuel" - range anxiety meter pre-Tesla style
"Average Consumption" - You need data for your Excell spread sheet for the next argument with those Toyota fuel sippers.
and lastly...
"Average Speed" - Always helpful when explaining to the officer that you don't normally speed.
I
purchased a 1999 996 with all the Japan 'power up' specs, but not sure how to identify it as a Power Up original delivery. By the way, purchased local in Japan and shipping to US this month, for those wondering.
Has X51, aero, 030, 18" wheels, 3-spoke, TC delete ...basically looks and has codes exactly like the brochure, and according to Zcodes went through Executive program. Many custom materials on interior.
Anyway, how would I figure out if it's a Power Up? I love it either way, but has to be a VIN registry, right?
Thanks
Awesome! A friend just picked up a 996.1 GT3 and is shipping in November when eligible. At my house hanging with my C4. That's his GT3 on left, even though looks just like my new 1999 C2 with aero, lol.
All are without bumperettes here. I've become used to it. Clean look.
I have an aftermarket exhaust on my c4, but the GT3 is all original and only 30k miles I think. It's sweet
Switch cars while he's not looking!!!
(he'll never know
)
Sounds like you found a great car! Never heard of the Power Up version, but look forward to hearing more. Also would like to hear more about importing from Japan -- are there a lot of LHD cars there and are there better deals to be found in Japan (I'm thinking beyond 996 for this question)
I don't know a lot, but from other threads. I purchased it, and the dealer stated it was 1of 20, but I know believe it's 1 of 25 that where delivered in Japan and a same spec special edition called a Carerra Cup edition was delivered in Germany, numbering 30. I think there where 55 worldwide if this spec, but not sure how to identify them. Here is the Japan brochure.
i have the configurations from VIN Analytics. Why do you ask about the C4 chassis?
running the VIN doesn't indicate the Power Up edition. Again, not sure what the tell of that would be other than a window sticker or something. Can't find anything about a code for Power Up edition.
How would you know if it's a c4 chassis? Spare tire? I'm sorry, but don't understand what options, codes or clues indicate the difference. Mine definately is a C2, but what delineates a C4 chassis?
Sorry for my ignorance. I can post the vin report if it helps.
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Due you have a picture of the trunk? C4 chassis is cofigured differently to accomodate the front differential. There would be no spare wheel visible as it is stored under the trunk floor plate from the factory.
Code 21441 indicates "Seats: Headrest Embossed with Porsche Crest (Approx. 10cm) for Vehicles with Partial Leather or Full Leather"
Engine prefix 66X does indicate the X51 configuration (should be cable throttle as well due to M96/01 engine type).
09971, 09981, & 09991 are all internal production codes indicating custom options as well as transfer to Werks 1 for customization based on the order type (this would include Aerokit installation as well as the embossed seats & X71 guage package).
Interesting...some data I have researched suggests the Power Up/Carrera Cup edition cars were built on a C4 chassis. Without Porsche verifying this it would be speculation, but the author suggested these were cars developed for a street legal class race series (purportedly to support F1) than never got off the ground and were sold to the public. I have a similar car to yours from Japan and have been researching it as well but unable to verify anything from Porsche.
Road & Track magazine selected the 1999 Porsche 911 Carrera 4 as the best handling car sold in America out of a strong field of contenders! Mario Andretti did the driving!
The easy way is fuel tank cover on a C2 is above battery, big black cap, C4 has black cap more in middle of front trunk over gas tank, also the only cable throttle cars are early 996 C2s the C4 always has E- Drive.
Rich
The "Power Up Option" was what it was called in Japan and is referring to the X51 engine and was not available to the US market for 996.1 cars ( would not meet US emissions requirements) .
Very rare indeed !!
The X51 engine will be denoted by a serial # starting with M96/01"S" XXXXXXXX and the 996.1 engine will feature a dual scavenge pump on bank 2 !! (easily noted due to an external pipe going to the front of bank 2 head) Also as part of the X51 package is CNC ported heads, larger camshafts, valve springs, pistons with deeper notches for the higher lift cams, Aluminum intake manifolds , larger headers, and an improved baffle in the oil pan....( also supporting software in the DME 5.2.2) . It also only has only 1 camshaft sensor ( instead of two like the US cars of '99 )
Your under hood option sticker clearly notes "X51" option which is called the "Power Up Option" in Japan Market ...Very rare for 996.1 cars !!
this is great info, thank you. I was under the impression 'power up' or x51 delivery was limited to a low number, maybe 25. Does that sound right?
how many x51 where delivered world wide?
lots of cool info, lots more questions, lol
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Adrian Streather's book 996: The Essential Companion has some info on the X51 and Power Up/Carrera Cup packages. He quotes 25 for the Japanese market and 30 for the German market. Another source in the UK (apparently closely associated with Porsche) quoted around 1500 factory 996.1's with the X51 option world-wide. Without Porsche actually verifying these numbers it is anyone's guess, but they don't pop up for sale very often so I think these numbers may be close.
I know this is probably the wrong place to ask, but so many smart people. Anybody have experience with shipping/cargo companies from Japan to US?
I have a few options, but want to ask the community about good or bad experiences. I am currently talking to Schumacher out of California. I also have a local friend that broker services, but again seeking best possible experience.
Apologies, don't want to hijack the thread, please point me in the right direction of an existing thread on topic. thanks
I can help. I moved from Japan to the US in 2020, and brought with me a '92 M5 E34 at the time.
I used Schumacher Logistics in RORO. They did a good job overall but I got my stereo stolen from the car when it reached the US as they are leaving the cars unattended on a lot during the customs clearance process. Their insurance only covered Total Loss so I didn't get anything and was told it is unfortunately a fairly common occurrence. So you might want to explore how to cover that with some other insurance.
... I eventually sold the M5 when I moved to California due to CARB certification and that's how I bought the 996 and ended up on this forum
this is great info, thank you very much. the car will be insured through my Auto insurance while in transit over ocean, and upon arrival. out of curiosity, they made a strong distinction between having the vehicles delivered to their facility, or an independent facility at another port of entry. Was your M5 delivered to their facility?
Morning
My company currently imports Porsches from Japan, we have been importers for 31 years. We specialize in Early production 996's and ROW Boxsters. I own one of the 20 "Power Up Editions" as well
If you would like to message me, I am happy to discuss importation.
Sean
Morning
I own one of the "power Up" cars as well. I'm an importer that specializes in Early production 996's as well as high line Japanese 4x4's. Love the fact you found the original Porsche Japan brochure images. Do you have a higher resolution copy of it. Ive only been able to find low quality images.
We are based in Blue Ridge GA
Thanks
Sean
Here's some more interesting info from "The 996 companion", a very well researched book on the 996. I infers there may be even more than 25, but does
not state it emphatically. Thought I'd add the intrigue! Could it be a factory refurb Cup car? What say you?
Hmm. I'm the original owner of a 99 996 and the first engine failure was just that. They tried to wiggle out of it, but replaced the motor free under warranty (save for an 800 bribe to the service manager) to come clean. The second failure was around 85K, a cylinder wall crack. Rebuilt it and did L&N Nickies and updated everything to 04 spec.
Good grief one car - two engine failures. Precisely why I defected to the Mezger years ago. But looking back now I wonder if that was a mistake. The Mezger is virtually indestructible, obviously. But was it worth losing that ineffable early-1999 magic? Perhaps not
Painful was the word at the time. In retrospect I'm glad I rebuilt it as runs great and is also bored to 3.6. So you kinda have an updated '04 engine (IPD plenum), with "no nannies" all manual cable throttle and coilovers. It's a fun "Frankenstein" to drive and I'm addicted to it. FD Motorsports did the exhaust so it sounds like a P-38 Lightning from WW2.
I did the same 2.5 years ago but I don�t love my Turbo the way I did my �00 C2. However I didn�t really trust it anymore after an IMS failure and subsequent rebuild�
Yes, all 911's are great, but all the models of 911 drive
very
differently. And the presumed models that are "better" are not always better for driving enjoyment. Probably more than any other car, it's important to drive as many variations of 911's (and 996's in particular) to find out what floats your boat.
Agreed, the Mezger is awesome. But I find that the Turbo only comes into its own when you really press on, at which point you�re doing crazy speeds for the road. Restraining yourself all the time (except on the Autobahn) is just not that much fun.
I replaced it with a 993 � really liked the soul and character of the car but it wasn�t a good fit for me for the intended semi-daily use for various reasons. The Turbo wasn�t yet sold so I�m back in it for now, but looking for something else.
What is really great about the 993 is that it is an event at any speed and I miss that with the later cars. However, more interior space, non-smelly heater and a more modern feel for my S.O. are worth something too
Yea the Mezger engine had 50 years of development behind it .....any engine with 40-50 years of yearly development will be fairly dependable ( look at the Small Block Chevy or Small Block Ford )
The M96/7 only had a 10 year run of development from Porsche and why it took untill now for the Aftermarket to get to the end of development and yes the m96/7 was built to a price point unlike the Mezger...
993 was the only 911 gen (of almost all of them) I don�t regret selling
High strung motor, hair trigger clutch, 30K rebuilds, interminable CEL�
Great car for a retired tinkerer or Porsche tech
That doesn�t match my experience at all. My 993 had 150k miles without any rebuild, just resealing the covers at some point. It was dry, used 1qt per 1500 miles, and felt totally indestructible. Maybe you just had a bad experience? My Indy says they regularly see them reaching 250k miles without needing a rebuild. It�s also a Mezger of course although we commonly reserve that for the watercooled blocks.
To me the thing that made the 996/997 so special was value....do your homework and get the right car and you can have a lot of fun for less than 60k....
Not sure if y'all been watching the auctions, but it seems the MY99 naturally aspirated cars are selling really well and are going up in value based on 5-yr analytics.
I’ve been saying this for 5 years that’s why I bought a rare 99 glacier white space grey with factory Aero one year only color combo
and not selling if the near future either I love ❤️ it
Recently purchased a 1999 996.1 and couldn't be happier with it. Taking care of a few smaller "issues" but can see this as a long term keeper. Attached is my options sticker, reading through this thread, I understand I have the LSD, TC, Sport Seats with Crests, HiFi Sound and rear Wiper. Anything else that I am missing?
I also see the car was optioned with the 18" Rims but am currently running 17s. I'd ideally find this set to bring it back to all original
Build is 10/98 by the sticker
Question....I have 09991 on my sticker.....however this is a 3/99 build date (not early build) has an Aluminum interior package (X71, X97, X98) Amongst other notable components of the build...nothing beyond this remarkable. I am curious however of the 09991 on the sticker and what it may signify on this build. Pics for reference to actual.
My understanding is the 09991 code indicates car received some �Special Wishes� options which may or may not be listed in the additional option codes on the sticker.
Rich
So interesting....I did something I've never done before....stuck the build sticker into ChatGPT: without boring you with too much (and it spit out A LOT!) : Based on the option sticker in your photo, this appears to be a Porsche 996 Cabriolet built for the U.S. market. Here is the decoding of the option codes visible on the sticker. Some of the Porsche Exclusive �X� codes are special-order items. Code
Description
C02
U.S. market version (USA emissions/equipment)
XRL
Special Porsche Exclusive option (not consistently documented in public databases; often requires factory build sheet)
XSC
Porsche crest embossed in headrests
X54
Stainless steel exhaust pipes/tailpipes
X70
Stainless steel door-sill guards with logo
X71
Aluminum-look instrument dials
X97
Aluminum/leather shift ****
X98
Aluminum/leather handbrake lever
139
Left heated seat
340
Right heated seat
424
Automatic climate control
437
Power seat, left (8-way)
438
Power seat, right (8-way)
490
Hi-Fi sound package with amplifier
537
Seat memory, left seat
696
AM/FM radio with CD player
936
Leather rear seats
983
Full leather front seats
09991
Porsche Exclusive Department build/customization code Then it continues!!!! What stands out
Your car appears to have been ordered with a fairly upscale specification:
Heated seats
Power seats with memory
Full leather interior
Porsche crest headrests
Aluminum interior package (gauges, shifter, handbrake)
Stainless sill plates
Stainless exhaust tips
Hi-Fi sound system
The most interesting code is XRL. Porsche Exclusive codes beginning with �X� were often custom-order items, and some are not published in public option lists. To identify it with certainty, Porsche can provide the original build specification from the VIN.
If you can provide the full VIN (or a clearer photo of the VIN line), I can tell you the exact model year, exterior color, interior color, and often narrow down what that XRL code represents.
Becker head unit I replaced w/Kenwood Double DIN and added added a backup camera.
XRL is the option code for 18" Sport Design wheels...so it appears your car did come from the factory with those equipped. Where did you get option code 404 from?
it showed is CHATGPT (which sometimes does nto always get things right.)...case in point, paint color....got mine wrong twice....then I corrected it and actually apologized and stated I was correct....
I was going to call the above post out about the hollow spine wheels being the lightest offered, but he does qualify it as �the lightest 18s�. The 408 wheels are worth a premium. I got a set of the 17� 10-spoke wheels to wrap in sticky tires as a fun wheel.. they are readily available and, by the account above, would get you under 2900lbs given they are about 1lb/corner lighter than the 408s. Modern rubber (200tw) is more than sticky enough to make up for the small difference in width.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
