OK here is PCNAs offer re:engine...

background: my 99 boxster. I am the one and only owner, 74k miles, dealer maintained, have all records, never tracked, never abused, never raced. mostly hway miles during the first two years. the engine failed - no explanation, no reasoning I am a loyal Pcar owner, with a 996 C4 Cab AND a Cayenne TT. their offer: 50% of the engine, 0 labor. I am looking at about $6500 out the door for a new (reman) engine. I am waiting to hear from the PCNA rep to try to understand it better, maybe get some assistance on the labor as well. Is it a reasonable offer? should I look at doing a 3.4 from one of the folks who has done a few (that would be WAY cool)? could I do better finding a 2.5 from someone else (probably not at 50% of a new reman from them). should I just sell the car? (tough because I have a LOT of memories in that car, I drove it away from my wedding, it was my first new p car, my brother in law also used it at their wedding, etc). THOUGHTS???

Without a reason of failure it's hard to go from there. But, outside of warranty and not a CPO I would have to say $6.5K isn't too bad for a new engine and 2 years of warranty.

As Dell said $6.5K for a new engine doesn't sound too bad. I'd still try to see if they can cover the labor, etc. From my understanding this this is their initial offer. Being that you own two more p-cars there may be a bit more room for negotiation.

defintely counter-offer, ask for labor to be paid 100% and then settle on splitting the difference

Take it, and sell it as a new motored Boxster. Perhaps a 987 would be the start of a new love affair that mat be more fulfilling.

I agree w/ Dell and fanatic on this. Definately counter. But $6500 is not bad for a replacement. The labor would be my issue. And..definately push the engine failure / reason issue. Still is a lot of money to me. Maybe now would be a good time to put a 996 engine in there. C.

ask if they'll ship the engine to your local independent Porsche mechanic. Maybe they'll move a little on the labor.

Counter offer for them to cover at least 90% and try to hold firm to that. If they say no, you can ask a lawyer to write them a letter. Its possible that the "implied warranty for fitness for a particular use" arguement may work. "Implied warranty" means even without a written warranty, the product should work under normal operating conditions and that you should be able to drive your car for a reasonable amount of time for a reaonable amount of miles and in a reasonable manner. 70,000 miles on a 6 year old car is very normal. "Particular use" means just driving day to day. Of course if they determine that you have hit the rev limiter and coded you may not have leg to stand on. Im not advocating a threat of a law suit. That costs too much money and you really probably wouldn't get very far. I am advocating, however, that you argue all points to your advantage so that they pick up more than what they quoted you. It also states firmly that you are serious about the issue on the table. Dealers don't want to be involved with lawyers. It may work to your advantage.

Am I correct to assume that the car is off warranty and that Porsche is not obligated to give you anything? Clearly you are a good cutomer and they are making a good-will offer. Hint - if you take too tough a stand they might withdraw the offer and play hard ball. Others on Rennlist have found that out the hard way. The guy who got the offer authorized probably went to bat for you and will be seriously annoyed if you push too hard. If you get classified as unreasonable things could get ugly fast. The deal does not sound bad to me. It could be better, but weigh the risk carefully. best,

Bob, Although the car is no longer under written manufacturer�s warranty it could be argued, as Jim already mentioned, that �implied warranty� may apply considering the circumstances. Sleeve failure is a manufacturing flaw which Porsche acknowledged in the recent past. Just because the problem didn't rear its ugly head until just now, is no reason for the customer to get the short end of the stick and have to shell out over $10K on an otherwise perfectly healthy unmolested vehicle.

I'd take the deal but see if they have some more wiggle room first. I'd not advise getting a lawyer to write a letter as that leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

I really don't see how he's got any leverage for a counter offer. this is a good-will offer from PCNA, on a car way out of warranty. i think it's pretty big of them, actually. i'd take it and run.

This is actually a VERY reasonable offer for a car so far out of warranty. I would handle this with extreme caution. Remember, you have absolutely no leverage in these "negotiations".

I WOULD ACCEPT THE OFFER ON THE TABLE,AS LONG AS THE REMAN ENGINE WOULD BE COVERED FOR 2 YEARS(WITH PCNA PAYING FOR 50% THEY MAY NOT WANT TO GIVE THE PARTS WARRANTY).WITH THE CAR SO FAR OUT OF WARRANTY YOU REALY DON'T HAVE ANY GOOD LEVERAGE(OWNING 2 OTHER P-CARS HELPS,BUT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU THE SHIRT OFF THEIR BACK).JUST MY OPINION.

What is the month and year the car was made.

$6,500 gives you a day or 2 in court if you are lucky! Get them to roll something else in and make sure the warranty is transferable. Alternative, see if they will assist on a great trade value with someting already sitting on a lot?

I'm with Bob on this one. You're being treated very fairly. There is an old Irish expression which goes. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" Be positive, assume your quiet professional demeanor, Porsche loyalty and reasonableness got you a nice response. Politics may be the "art of the possible' but negotiation is not. I would say thank you very much, and I'd be further delighted if you'd also recognize that there is a cost for the labor and will you pay half of that. Then I'd turn to my dealer and ask since Porsche is being so nice about this what arre you going to do for me. The dealer has future business riding on it and he should at least do it at his cost. My $.02

If they are charging you 50% of retail they are not really doing you any favors. What is dealer cost? What was dealer cost a few months ago before they doubled the price? Its too bad you don't know what happened to your old motor? It is 6 years old but a manufacturer/design defect is still a defect and Porsche is probably hoping you don't know that. (that is what they've done with all there F'ups on previous models).

That is a pretty fair offer. From talking to others that have been in the same position, don't push too hard. The car is out of warranty. They do not have to do anything, they have proven that many times with their lawyers to other customers. I understand it is still a bum deal to have to replace the motor at any expense, but some other manufacture's wouldn't be even talking to you. There is not much margin for mark up on these motors, and the warranty is a good warranty, The motor is complete minus belt. All new hoses, wiring, plastics, etc. - these remans look like a brand new motor.

I want to thank everyone for the good advice. It's funny, sometimes I think we know each other better than half the people I work with :-) Anyhow, in trying to analyze this decision, I am wondering if anyone can feed me a few data points: - how much is a new 2.5 engine from a dealer (cost/list)? - how much is a new 3.4 engine from a dealer (cost/list)? - how much would it cost for a reputable porsche mechanic (not a dealer) to install an engine? - any feedback from anyone who has put a 3.4 in a Boxster? lastly, if I just replaced the 2.5 from dealer, what could I reasonably expect for a 74k mile body '99 Boxster (AS/blk) with a new engine and clutch, PCM, TC, Hardtop, Sport seats, DSP and hollow spoke 18" turbo designs? 20k? 25k? THANKS!....E

OK, I am answering some of my own questions here: new 2.5 (reman) = 6963.57 labor seems to be about 20 hours, give or take. NEW TWIST (man is this tough!) I found a used 3.4 with <10k miles at a nearby independent shop (Doug of Doug&Julie, you out there?) that could be had for only $5k. This means that for about $7-8k, give or take, I could have a 3.4 in my baby. For $500-1500 less, I could get a 2.5 with a two year warranty. Anyone know what other mods I would need to make to the Boxster to accomodate the 3.4? I know the ECU needs flashing, but I am talking suspension, brakes, etc. This is getting tougher by the minute!

I'd venture that engine replacement is somewhere around $1-1.2k in labor. My advice is not to put a 3.4L into your car if you ever want to sell it. perspective buyer won't see that as a huge plus and you'll never recoop your add'l expense which includes new ECU etc, In fact, they'll wonder if any abuse / tracking was done to the engine since you are putting a bigger one in. Not to mention that you'll want upgrade to brakes at very min. No matter what engine you put in, you'll never get as much as an S would sell for. If you are not satisfied with the power of 2.5, sell it later or put some mods. If you plan on keeping the car forever (doubt it), just dont expect ppl to pony up more than 2k for the big motor.

I am very interested to hear from anyone who has first hand knowledge of a 3.4 in a Boxster.

Is that dealer cost?

Retail with core return.

Answering my own question, $5153USD is dealer cost (M480?) so if retail is $6963USD than dealer markup is 35% which is a lot less than it use to be.

Shoot a few questions on the Boxster Racing Board. Plenty of guys have 3.4L in their Boxsters.

Ask them to give you the motor at 1/2 dealer cost and the labor at the warranty work rate. Check the price on the engine at Sunset Porsche. I believe their cost plus 10% rates are accurate.

I told the dealer that I would like to have the opportunity to spend two minutes on the phone with the Porsche rep. He came back to me and said that the rep is not trying to be rude, but he doesn't have the time to speak to me directly, and that if their offer wasn't good enough, to withdraw the offer. Boy am I steamed! For crying out loud, I have 3 friggin P-cars and he won't even give me the courtesy of a phone call! My next step is probably straight to PCNA on the phone tomorrow. I still have yet to receive ANY cause for this, other than a likely slipped sleeve. I believe my car was a Feb 99 production date, which makes it one of the last to have that known issue. Is it my fault that I took better care of the vehicle than most, and it held out until 74k miles to happen? I even got 35k, that's right 35k (not a typo) miles on my first set of tires! That's how much a babied it. Given my situation with a baby on the way, I am about to say F it, they can keep the thing and trade it in on a CPO BMW. I am NOT very happy with P right now. Don't even get me started on the 20 or so times I have had my Cayenne in the shop for electrical gremlins, tramsmission cooler, wheel issues, vibrations and more. I spent 100k to be their beta guinea pig there. Anyone have any contacts at PCNA, or will they tell me tough sh** as well? I am the kind of customer they could be selling a Carrera GT (or equiv) to in three years time, and instead they making me want to dump them all and go elsewhere.

I wouldn't take it too personally or be too upset about it. PCNA has probably established a policy for handling engine failures and does not want to deviate from that policy no matter how important or loyal the customer has been. If it gets out that they offered you a better deal than they offered the next guy customers they've previouly settled with may come back looking for more. Previously closed cases may be reopened and I'm sure that's the last thing they want. I think the offer they presented sounds pretty good. I would pick the 2.5l engine to have installed by the dealer and keep the car as long as you want or sell it with the new engine and warranty. That sounds like a nice deal to a prospective buyer. Isn't your C4 cab about the equivalent to a 3.4 Boxster? For what its worth, if I saw a 3.4l Boxster and it was in good shape for a good price I wouldn't be afraid to buy it! Mickey

I'd hate to say it but I think you may have over-reacted on this one. I firmly believed that $6.5K was reasonable and something to go for. Not the best offer, but certainly not the worst. Think about what it would cost if they offered NO good-will? A few had said to count your blessings, accept it humbly, and not press or they could withdraw the offer which is exactly what happened--and now you are peeved. Remember, your car is way out of warranty (~2.5 years and 25K miles) and there is not a court in this land that will side with you because of that. From one Sox fan to another, I am 100% on your side, as most of on this board are, regardless of the decision you make and will hope to see this come to a resolution acceptable for you. Keep us posted.

To Mickey's point...In some ways the Internet is our undoing..what you get is a (I forgot the term...a "perfect" market maybe) where all deal information is instantly known by all. Your odds of negotiating a "special" deal for yourself are slim now because chances are it will be known nationwide within hours (nothing personal about you though)...

It is actually cheaper to buy the motor from an out-of-state dealer and have it shipped freight to Kentucky! The very least his local dealer could do is price-match. They are not doing him any favors (they're not covering labor right?) so I would push a little harder but first I would find out why the engine self-destructed. If the problem was known defect than you have a reason to ask for $$$ assistance but if the problem was just something that happens you probably should just eat it.

So if dealer cost is roughly $5.2K (and are we sure about that) and labor is roughly 20 hours.....then by that logic he is getting the motor at dealer cost and splitting the labor roughly 50/50 for the install. Sounds like a good deal to me..........especially for an out of warranty good will.

I would have to agree.

My reading comprehension obviously sucks. I read the first post as if the engine would cost him $6500 and he would have to pay for all the labor. If the $6500 is for parts and labor than I agree that Porsche is being fair, my bad. I still think KY should find out what happened to his engine from the dealer's tech before he agree's to anything.

A little clarification, I have the Boxster down at my place in FL, that's where it happened. Me and my other cars are in KY right now (as is the 3.4l engine if I want it, which means having to tow the vehicle to KY or sending the engine to FL to make that happen). As far as the offer goes, yeah, I do appreciate the good will. Maybe I am spoiled in that I work for a company that made it's living by dealing direct with their customers. All I wanted was a courtesy call from PCNA. I still think I at least warrant that. ANY company too busy to speak to their customers has lost touch. I STILL have no explanation for the failure (and paid $400 in diagnostic labor to find that out!). My inclination based on all I know is a slipped sleeve, but I can't confirm, and the dealer doesn't think we should pay more to open it up and find out. I am going to mull it over this weekend and then decide. Much of my decision will be based on whether my intent is to sell it, or keep it. With a baby on the way, a two seater might not cut it. I am leaning towards putting the 2.5l in it and selling it with the warranty, and likely replacing it with something like a 3 series. Still undecided. Thanks again to everyone, as the range of comments really helps put things into perspective. I don't doubt that they are trying to treat me fairly, but I am one who really enjoys having a personal relationship when I do business. I have high service level expectations, but then again, that's why I spend the $ for BMW and Porsche instead of Chevy. Have a great 4th! BTW, I have finished most of the 911 mods to my c4 cab. I will post pics tomorrow.

poindex30, Where did you see the 3.4L Boxster and how much? Thanks.

I didn't see a 3.4L Boxster. Someone mentioned to KY_Soldier that if he installed a 3.4 in his Boxster it wouldn't be worth much when he sold it. I was just saying that if I saw a 3.4L Boxster I would be very interested in it.

Sorry to hear that they still can't find the problem. You're by far much more patient than I. With no response on the cause I'd proceed with caution, insist on talking to the PCNA rep, perhaps tow the car to another dealer, sighting unqualified techs, etc... In summary your car "seized", the dealer charged you $400 for basically NOTHING, now they're offering to replace the engine at a negotiated rate... . Did they produce any evidence suggesting that the problem is indeed inherent to the internal components of the engine???

A previous poster asked you for info re your build date, etc. I believe he is a Porsche tech and may have some info for you if you answer his questions.

TP did ask for that info. And if ANYBODY would be able to shed some light on this it would be him. PM him that info.

TP - sorry about that, I believe the vehicle was manufactured in Mar 99. Here is the VIN if it helps decipher the build date: WP0CA2981XU627307 . I believe I took delivery in Apr 99. Thanks in advance for any light you can shine on this....E

KY_soldier the offer they made you, is the exchange plane Porsche has for anyone who has a broken engine, this is a world wide offer, your case is just like many others�. they are not giving you anything different, just the comun procedure. No matter where you are, South Africa, Europe, U.S or Autralia, if you go to a Porsche dealer with a broken engine, they will will offer in exchange of your engine, a rebuild engine and two years warranty for the price you mention. Some of you might think "why PAG is doing that?" because there are a bunch of 986 and 996 engines blowing out there, and they want some how to help their clients to have a new rebuild engine at a low cost. My 996 engine blow a month ago, and was i offered an engine for 5800 euros plus taxes . had to pay for the labour myself and ended up with a 9500 euros bill including a new clutch an all taxes paid. Had sent two letteres to my local dealer and one letter to Porsche Germany asking for a free engine, but any financial help was denied, because they said these rebuild engines have already a very special price and also beacuse my car hadn�t been bougth from their net work plus was out of warranty period. Car had 54000Km always assisted amd never over reved as they saw by reading the ECU info from my car. I have to confess that it was not a surprise to have my engine blown, had two friends with 996 and Boxster who had their engines blown too. At the Porsche club there are also a bunch of guys who had their engines blown. While i was there to drop my car to get a rebuid, there was a 996 from 2001 receving a rebuild engine. There are some Porsche shops that have 996 and 986 engines in stock, yes that�s what you heard, they have rebuild engines in stock, like they have the oil filter and fuel filter in stock too. They have it, because these engine brake, it�s a comun failure, oil in the water, or sleeves on the oil are the comun symptom. PAG can sent a rebuild engine in no time to any part of the world, because they have a bunch of them ready to be export. When I had my engine failed the guy who was dealing with my case went to the computer and told me that they had a rebuild engine in stock, so if i decided to accept their offer i would have my car ready in four days. Don�t get me wrong, i love my car and i love Porsche, but the M96 engines are tottally crap (GT3 and Turbo apart) and the number of blown engines stories i know from these cars are too much to count. Just in the last two months or so i�seen more that 10 blow outs on these crapy engines, but ever since 1997 they are blowing, and worst of all, even the rebuild ones blow too. I�m not here to trash Porsche image, I�m a passionate Porsche lover and for the last 10 years have been driving and owning their cars, but i just can�t accept that Porsche doesn�t cover these blown engines when they know very well, that this is designflow, and all these engine should have been recall, or at least people who had their engines blown , wont have to pay anything for a rebuild unit. KY_soldier, fell free to email me if you have any question, before the 996 I had a Boxster with a 3.4l engine, great car. Here some sad blown 996 engines stories from this, and other Porsche boards. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/205310-996-is-gone-hello-to-m3-cab.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/204183-white-smoke-on-track-day.html http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4501 https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/196506-possible-engine-problems-on-996-3-4l-help.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/196800-possible-engine-problems-on-3-4l-update.html

I have not read all the messages. If the failure is due to the sleeve issue then Porsche has a secret list and will know if yours was sleeved from your numbers. Or have the head on the bad side pulled off and you will know immediately if it is a sleeved engine. March 1999 is in the window period that we estimated years ago when a slipped sleve was common. I do not know why your engine failed, but it is not hard to rule out the sleeve issue. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=128818 https://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-and-boxster-s-986-forum/150463-boxster-sudden-engine-failure.html http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={F3EA752A-E838-43E5-A43D-BB4F445F5A8F}

thanks TP and J.Seven. Knowing what you know, what should I do now? Pursue the sleeve issue in hopes of them paying 100% on the engine, or is this deal it? Out of warranty or not, a known widespread engine failure should be close to grounds for a recall, wouldn't it? I guess the question is what is the difference if it's on the list or not? Did I get the 50% engine because I was on the list or not? Still not quite sure how to go on this one. Also - TP, should I be liable for the $400 (4 hrs) it took the dealer to give me no diagnosis?

http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={CA1859C4-B3A4-4B7F-A2FD-943921593C98} http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={F3EA752A-E838-43E5-A43D-BB4F445F5A8F} If it were me I would raise hell if a mechanic could not tell me if it is a sleeved engine and if the sleeve got pulled down the cylinder by the piston rings, after charging 4 hours of time to tell you something is wrong. Just to rule out that issue as the cause of your engine failure. If they don't want to pull the heads then they can remove the plugs and stick in a borescope. Kimi in my link had a Feb. 1999 and Porsche paid 100% of the replacement engine, on an out of factory warranty car. Kimi, like you, did not know the cause of the failure. But when a 986 motor locks up and you are in the window period, then you try to put 2 and 2 together. When a Feb. 1999 owner gets a free replacement engine you get 4 in my book. You need to find out the cause of the failure. You may not even have a sleeved engine. Edit. None of the PCA links work so you will have to figure out how to see the info on that site.

I know they took the plugs out, but "didn't find anything." I don't know if they stuck a scope in there or not. I know the major parts and systems on a car, but can't disect an engine to save my life, so at times, I am lost in the shuffle (a network, satellite/dish, or computer and I am fine, engines, not so much :-). I need to call them tomorrow AM and get exact details from them (build date, sleeved engine, etc). What EXACTLY do I need to ask them to pinpoint the failure? Thanks in advance for all your help. Next time I get out to CA, I owe you the beverage of choice ;-)

they told me 12 hours of labor to disassemble the engine, and it would be a waste because the bottom line is that I need a new engine. I am fuming over this thing, I feel like I am being treated like a 5 year old. won't tell me why, just that it needs a new engine. how can I tactfully escalate this?

I would be curious to find out how this was resolved. Did you take the offer from PCNA?