GT3 Swaybar install on C4s (front)

may as well do a pictoral writeup. Few things needed for the install 10mm socket to remove the 4 nuts holding the under tray in 4 corners 2 flathead screwdrivers for removing the spring clips on the under tray 18mm socket wrench for the control arm 16mm socket wrench to remove the 3 bolts surrounding the lower arm and the sway bar mount and the subframe braces 11/16 wrench to hold the one end of the bolt head while you remove the nut from the endlink (Tarett Engineering endlink in this case; stock may be different) Step 1: Jack up the car and install jackstands. Work safe and make sure the car is secure with wheel chocks on the rear Step 2: Remove 4 plastic bolts holding the plastic undertray. Use flat headed screwdrivers to remove the spring clips (about 8 IIRC holding the plastic undertray. Be careful not to break the metal tabs. Push in the smaller tabs with one screwdriver while prying off the spring clip with the other flathead screwdriver Step 3: Remove the plastic undertray and set aside Step 4: losen the rear bolts of the subframe brace (forms the V) And remove the front two bolts of the subframe brace. Pivot the subframe brace out of the way http://www.flickr.com/photos/jyoteen/6042805004/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jyoteen/6042267165/ Step 5: Remove the smaller bolts that are holding the swaybar bushing in place and the control arm larger bolt. This will allow the mounting plate to be removed http://www.flickr.com/photos/jyoteen/6042803802/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jyoteen/6042807896/ Step 6. Unhook the endlinks on each side of the swaybar http://www.flickr.com/photos/jyoteen/6042806796/ Now remove the swaybar. Make note of the orientation and other details as you want to install the aftermarket unit with it the right way up. Installation of the new swaybar is the reverse of the process above. Don't tighten everything down until everything is linked. Make sure the circular 'tabs' on the swaybar are on the inside and not under the mounting holes. Tighten everything up, proper torque and reinstall plastic tray. You may want to hold off on the plastic tray until you do a little test drive making sure you do lock to look steering inputs while moving to ensure nothing is rubbing. Enjoy beer (and new handling) Notes: Now, in my case specificially, the GT3 bar rubs. I have to get a hold of the curved endlinks made by GMG even though I have the Tarrett Engineering adjustable links already, which i'm not too pleased about. Just more $. On the rear swaybar, which i'll update this post, you have to get adjustable links too. This is what was happening on my car w/ the GT3 swaybar on softest setting w/ steering lock. Notice the rubmarks on the front axle shaft.

Good stuff! Looking forward to the handling report once you get the right end links installed.

joyteen, i have the rear if that works on your car let me know.

Your links are rubbing the axle. Put your steering in full lock and look underneath the car, you'll see the link touching the axle. The fix is to lengthen the adjustable link when the front suspension is unloaded so it is closer to the LCA.

Jyo, would the gt2 have rubbed?

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No, since it doesn't have the front drive axles. The rubbing is cured, btw because I had the older style Tarrett links. Those were changed out and I don't have any issues, even at steering lock.

Thats what i meant. Would it have rubbed on yours. So i guess it would have also. I thought the gt2 and gt3 are different bars. Can you post a pic of new links. Did it help with handling?

I do know that the GT2 bar is actually smaller diameter than the GT3 bar. Technically, you want to just stiffen up the rear so there's less push. I upgraded everything, so it's tough to slice and dice what made the most difference (as the links are heim joints too at the time of sway install), however, the car is truly incredible now (I have the sways front and rear, hollow spoke wheels, RSS LCAs, end links on all corners). The car now gets into the corner very, very quickly. Before, there was a lot of push and I muscled the car into the corner. I am also running pretty agfressive alignment settings as well (probably too agressive for the street) so the car is very 'darty' and you have to be on your game driving. The biggest OMG moment was at Sears Point where the car turned in (this is following the LCA install) rather quickly, which was awesome, but then as I unwound the steering for a transition, it almost snapped back too quickly. I got the handle on it after a few laps but it did surprise me quite a bit. I love the handling. I have always been a handling person and I realize that the C4s is a 'pig' in the GT3 Porsche world, but I like the ability to nail the throttle and the car just claws out of the turn and now it turns too. Still not crazy nimble like a GT3 would be in a similar situation, but I can chase the best of them.

So you dont think the c4s with your mods and awd will hang with a stock gt3? Just due to engine hp or other factors?

jyo, thinking about H&R lowering sport springs and a stiffer rear sway bar to end some of the push on my Turbo and lower the C of G. I don't want to do coilovers or spend a bunch on mods as I never will track the car. I lived to road race motorcycles for 10 years and had enough. I did a stiffer adjustable rear bar on my C2 and loved the way it transformed it. I could carry a lot more speed before having to initiate a turn and the car would go where I pointed it. Before I'd make a late steering change and the car would want to keep going straight. Your thoughts?

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A lighter car with the same HP will eventually run away if you have the same driver and similar setup, and it depends on the track. But a gt3 is lighter and has more HP. The GT3 has the sways anyway so the gt3 will have the advantage. Now if there's a mismatch of drivers, then anything can happen. I had a dogfight for 6 laps with a 997 GT3 with Hoosiers around sears point last year. He had power everywhere and would run away but I would reel him in through the entrance in the Esses, and would dog him through the Esses and eventually he had to let me go. Conversely Randy Pobst chased down a 450 HP car with hoosiers piloted by a somewhat advanced driver, in a stock tired normally aspirated street tired Audi a6 with an automatic transmission at sears point, so it's always the driver first and then the car.

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I think it makes the car a lot of fun, more fun with a bit of understeer compensated for, but it won't reach it's best as you know. But for the money, sways cannot be beat. It'll be the largest change you will notice.

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Wrong. They are exactly the same bars with the same part #s if you check PET. Also, using different links and making it "work" isn't the most optimum if your sway bars aren't laying parallel to the ground. If your able to get tem to lay flat without any preload, then great.

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maybe it's the rear bar then. As far as my setup, it took me a while going back and forth w/ Tarrett, but everything works as it should.

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Great to hear. I know quite a bit of c4s/turbo guys have used the aftermarket curved end links when using the gt2/gt3 bar but have always wondered if they were able to get the sway bar to lay flat without any preload. Do you know if yours lay flat?

Jyo, I installed the GT2 front bar but did not have the clearance issues so far. It is a tight fit but I assume yours rubbed because your car is lowered? I used the 4th hole in if you count from the end of the bar where the adjusting holes are. I dont wont my car any lower than stock so maybe it will be OK. There is plenty of up travel but not so much down. I also measured the stock C4S bar to verify size. It is 24mm. The GT2 is 27mm. and Alp, stop pi@#$#% on the GT sway bar thread.

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Did you notice whether you were able to get the sway bar ends to lay parallel? Report back after some miles. Better yet dab some paint or put on some masking tape over your axles and/or sway bar as an indicator to see if it rubs long term over various conditions. If the bar is working for you, then great. No pissing involved, although my dad can beat up your dad.

Yep, spoke too soon. If you turn too sharp it does barely rub. I will either do what Jyo did or use the Eibach and sell the GT2. I dont have understeer anyway so maybe I dont need it. It will work on a C2 with no mods if anyone wants it before I post it.

You can probably see if the guy that got the rear wants the matching front. I wouldn't bother with the Eibach's unless you want the same 24mm front bar. If you're not getting or noticing any under steer, I would leave well enough alone. I would however replace your bushings with new rubber or poly bushings for improved transient response, if they are old or worn.

Alp, I seem to be having serious oversteer instead of understeer even more so with PSM off. I think tire change from the Mich PS2 295's to the 315's is next.

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Are you getting oversteer with the GT2 bar or are you back to stock?

Stock 24mm front bar and 225 40R 18's in front. 295 30R 18 on back. Funny thing is theres zero understeer but loads of oversteer. Feels more like the tires so Im trying the 315's. PSM makes a difference but is less fun.

Joy--I'm dealing with the same issue you were. I assumed when I first read your post that Tarett had an earlier version of the droplinks that caused this problem and they were updated. Apparently not. The shop that did the install is working with Tarett to reach a satisfactory solution that avoids contact, but I'm annoyed that they billed these as the proper links for this setup only to find out they require modification. I'll keep people informed when a solution is found. Krazy--Are you running the stock rear bar and the GT2 bar at full stiff up front? Normally that bar is paired with a ~21mm bar in the rear instead of the stock 18.5mm bar on a C2. That's a big difference in front a rear stiffness. It would explain why you're experiencing oversteer. Also, under what conditions are you experiencing oversteer? Street driving?

From what I remember what is required is a longer offset (spacer) on the link mounting. The owner of the alignment shop races POC so maybe he fabricated something to push the link away from the front driveshaft?

Uber, its the 24mm stocker up front. Street oversteer, havent tried track. I might go with the 23MM on rear. Jyo, could you post a photo of part needed or website? Spacer makes sense though.

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What settings are you using on the sway bars?

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It's very odd that you'd have any oversteer with the stock setup and those tires. I suppose alignment could be one culprit. Tire pressure is another. A bigger question is how you're judging under and oversteer on the street. I find very few situations on the street in which I can push the car hard enough to lose traction on either end. With PS2's I would imagine you should be in the same situation. Can you describe the situation in which you're experiencing the oversteer?

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I'll take a look at it tonight and report back. I have the alignment settings somewhere as well. Note that I'm running PSS 10 shocks at the one off from the stiffest setting as well.

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Driving style is the other if you're going into corners too hot and half to lift of a bit, but then it's really considered a weight transfer issue with driving.

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I'm not sure where you're driving on the street that you'd have lift in the middle of a turn.... Your description is exactly why I was asking when he experienced the "oversteer". I wouldn't really call what you described oversteer. Unbalancing the car in the middle of a turn can cause all sorts of odd behavior. I typically think of oversteer as situation in which you are at the limits of adhesion in a turn, you add 1% more throttle, and overcome the adhesion in the rear before the front. If that's not what Krazy is experiencing then there may be other things at play instead of "oversteer".

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I'm basically saying the same thing as you and saying it could be a "weight transfer" issue to put it in polite terms, which is in no way related to actual oversteer.

I think its more of a pavement type issue.

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For comparison Im running H&R coilovers which are rather stiff, non-adjustable. My camber settings are -2.8 front with 0 toe & -2.3 rear with 2mm toe in. The car is lowered considerably and corner balanced so I think we may have a similiar setup. Next upgrade will be the GT3 sways which why I asked what settings your using. Are you running r comps when you track? I use NT-01s 235F/315R and currently getting too much body roll for my liking with the added grip. Even so, the car was transformed with coilovers and proper setup.

I'm interested too.....the X74 has the ROW M030 sways. I just picked up a used set of GT3's. The X74 is a great set up and I'm wondering how much better it can get with the 3 sways.

bump for sway settings?

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Jyoteen, was your problem cured at all stiffness settings or just the softest setting? My mechanic has been dealing with Tarett trying to resolve this problem and he's still finding contact at any setting other than the softest. I'd rather not limit steering angle if I can avoid it. It's really annoying that Tarett is advertising this as something that works only to run into these problems. S.

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I found new to me used (1 week old) tarett links. I'm hoping I won't have this issue as described. I'm learning about the sways but what is meant by soft settings. There are 5 settings. Which direction is soft....away or closer to the bend in the bar.

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Softest is the furthest away from the bar. Don't you have C2 or is it a C4?

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C4 with the X74. The sways on it are ROW M030 and switching to 3's.

He has a C4 so he will probably have the rub issue at full lock, especially on the stiffer settings as that moves the link toward the axle. I think a spacer at top to relocate link was the remedy but never understood exactly what he did to cure it.

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Was there ever a 100% cure? If I'm understanding it right, I thought Jyoteen converted to RWD so it became a non-issue at that point.

Very seldom do I experience full lock on street or track driving. Hope its not a problem but will soon find out. Time for me to call the Tarett boys. Stay tuned. Edit.........Talked to Tarett. They have heard of some issues with the front links hitting the axle and said 3 out 5 settings, softer to stiff would not be a problem and maybe even the 4th setting but total stiff would be an issue. They were not aware of using spacers at least the guy that I talked to was not. Using the stock rear links is fine. I'm think I'm ok but won't know until I get into it. Also....sway bar should be parallel to ground.

I'm not sure how things will work out with the X74 setup and the mount points for the droplinks. I'm using KW coilovers which have similar mount points to the Bilstein coilovers. Right now the shop is telling me that the middle hole allows contact with the axle, the next softest setting contacts the pinch point on the shock....this is limiting my "adjustable" swaybars to a single setting...Not ideal. I agree that full lock is rare, but in parking lots I hit it regularly. I'm having them put in some spacers to limit the range of the steering rack. More info tomorrow.... Does anyone use the GMG parts Jyoteen referenced earlier? I don't see any droplinks listed for C4s on their website.

I really don't see what the big deal is using GT3/GT2 that were originally meant for RWD applications. There are quite a few aftermarket swaybars designed to work with AWD out there. Wouldn't it be less headache to go this path instead and sell off the GT3/GT2 bars?

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I would like to stick with Pcar parts but what sways are talking about?

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H&R for example has c4 specific adjustable bars. You can even use stock end links too. 1,2,3 done. No fuss.

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Just looked at them. They are 24mm but the 3's are 27mm. The sways I have are already 24 but fixed. What to do....

The H&R c4 front is 25mm, rear is 24mm. But consider that this just the physical size and solid bar. The adjustable holes will allow you to effectively make them stiffer. Bigger isn't better, tuned is better. There's a reason why the C2 model is slightly bigger at 26mm front. The AWD version doesn't need as big bars as the RWD.