Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump UIDS v2.2

This has been brought over from the "oil pressure instability thread" that Zbomb has going so George can post updates and such. If you want to read a lot about oil pressure drops and instability, I would suggest you read the entire thread. Lots of good info in there that can bring you up to speed on the subject. Default Yes, It's got ***** !!!! Ok, I got the green light from my partner to share some info of what we have been working on for many many months. ( since I had already kinda let the cat out of the bag in a recent post).This is the third version on the same concept that I believe will solve the oil pressure drops on lateral G-force turns that I have seen first hand on the street with street tires in moderate turns, and what Zbomb and others are seeing on the track with great data to follow. The Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump Version 2.2 (UIDS V2.2) takes a systematic redesign of the sump to address the shortfalls of the factory Integrated Dry Sump and of the currently available deep sumps that pick up oil from the center of the sump. The UIDS V2.2 uses a G-Force sensitive flow control valve to direct the oil pickup to the lateral side of the sump where the oil goes under G-Force. The "Heart" of the system is the "Novel G-Force sensitive flow valve" that is robust and simple in construction, but is highly sophisticated and technical in design. This is the part that make this concept possible. What sets this apart is the dual pickups that are located at the left and right of the sump and is where the oil will be on lateral turns, and can deliver oil even at G-Forces of over 2g. The G-force sensitive flow valve has rolling steel ***** (Tungsten) that follow the oil in the same lateral direction under the same G-force and changes the pick-ups.. We have done bench work and flow bench tests, 3D printed prototypes, but are still a month or more from actual in car tests. (sorry Zbomb), but have been working on this since well into last year.(this kind of stuff takes time)The UIDS V2.2 should need no Accusump to work. Before anyone asks, the cost analysis of the time on the 100k CNC machine to make UIDS V2.2 parts has not yet been done so price prediction is not available, but I think the product will be well worth the cost and multiple times less that a Dry Sump setup and much easier install and cleaner. UIDS V2.2 bottom UIDS V2.2 UIDS V2.2 cutaway __________________ Inventor : UAOS Inventor: UIDS

Thank you for sharing. I look forward to seeing the testing results. I love my ultimate AOS so far. I'm hoping this will be the solution that will allow me to track my 996 as hard as my M3 worry free.

This post was also brought over from the "oil pressure instability" thread with an update of the progress. I have never understood why the "3.4 X51 with the dual stage scavenge pump" was never offered for the US market. Possibly because of emissions reasons with the camshaft profile or DME tune? OR because it had only 1 cam position sensor? Anyway , The 996.2 X51 did NOT have the Dual Scavenge Pump on bank 2 head ,contrary to what many people believe. Porsche did state in Technical Training Class P10W that the new design of the 996.2 head had better drain bank to the single stage scavenge pump and felt the dual stage scavenge pump wasn't necessary. ( This needs "real data" to support or deny) I have always felt the dual stage scavenge pump was a big help on the 3.4 996.1 and would even help on the 996.2 3.6 engines.( it certainly wouldn't hurt) The Porsche Aftermarket (especially in the US) is a lot tougher than most everyone thinks. Back in the early 80's on my racing cars,(setting World Records), I had many many innovations/Inventions that were not able to enjoy commercialism, even though they worked beautifully . Sometimes the market is limited, just not ready for the Innovation/Invention, or just doesn't like/support it , or think it necessary. LN Engineering had reproduced the Dual Stage Scavenge Pump for the market, as shown in previous posts here, but the market has not supported the product very well as sales were lacking. And Martins Dual Stage Scavenge Pump seems like a well made product also that I believe would help both the 996.1 3.4 and the 3.6 996.2 , but if the market doesn't support it, I'm not sure how long it will be available. The UAOS doesn't have a big profit margin , but is enough to sustain as sales are consistent. Even though it is a superior product to the Factory AOS sytem , it has a warning system to warn of diaphragm failure, and eliminates the labor intense procedure of the replacing the AOS every 3 years. It is Superior to the Motorsport AOS in that it cost about half of the 996.1 Motorsport AOS, comes with necessary modified hoses, moves the diaphragm to a very accessible location, and with the Extreme Track Duty Auto Drain accessory, provides an addition drain back to the sump to keep oil levels higher in the sump. But I keep seeing people buy the Factory design and installing them , so the "market " actually hurts itself by not supporting superior products. I am an Enthusiast at heart, with only 1 product to offer at this time, the UAOS, but I am on the verge of crossing the line to Vender status. Being a paying member I can only post 1 product for sale, but I'm not sure if I can continue on my current path to provide support, info, and products once I have other products for sale . Just an update on the UIDS V2.2 " THE VISION IS COMING TO LIFE !!! " I will start a new thread for the UIDS v2.2 (if allowed) to continue updating the progress. __________________ Inventor : UAOS Inventor: UIDS

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Thank you Geoff !! My pleasure !!

Subscribed. Maybe I can resume tracking my car (and feeling good about it) if I had one of these.

Skip, I can't wait to see it. Love your innovation in addressing the issues that we have been talking about. Keep innovating!

Can't wait Skip. I know how much effort you and George have put into solidifying the platform, not just for street use, but also for my use haha. When it comes to the capability of the platform we both like so much, from a chassis standpoint, for the money - it is really hard to beat and I am reminded of that as I'm getting pass by's from cars many years newer costing 10's of thousands of dollars more - this is a VERY common occurrence. My car sees 1.5G or cornering and 1.2 G of braking, all the time. You have developed already what in my opinion is the most important engine mod I currently have, the UAOS with drain back and I commend you and George for now directing your efforts in what for me is the gaping hole in our very expensive engines reliability on track, maintaining a consistent and reliable supply of oil under all conditions. I wish both of you guys the best of luck, and if you need any support from me, just say the word.

This is fantastic and super stoked to see the in car test data and how this develops. First UAOS and now UIDS Given the location of the UIDS the install should be a breeze in comparison to the UAOS too. It may be time for a new name for your web site. May I suggest UF6S = Ultimate Flat 6 Solutions

Nice work Skip! Is this a sandwich plate?

Interesting. Will be watching this. Patrick motorsports currently has an accusump system available for $1500.

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Thanks guys !! I need the positive Karma !! Zbomb ; Thanks man, I will give it a good "shakedown" on my car with some oil pressure monitoring equipment , driving as hard as "I" can to see how it performs. I can't wait !! Then if it passes all my tests, we will see what it can do with a "real driver" manning the controls... 808Bill :: This is not a sandwich, it is a complete sump system that replaces everything on the bottom of the engine, even the oil pick-up tube and swirl pots.

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Outstanding work!

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Thanks man !! Yes, will be very easy to install. ...UF6S kinda catchy, I like it ...And it keeps with the 4 letter theme...lol Thank you !!

More progress. Valve body and bottom covers are next. Hoping to make more progress this weekend.

Oh. My. God.

It should sit at the Chicago Museum of Art next to the Bernini exhibit. Incredible piece of work.

I'll take 2 and wear one around my neck at track days. Seriously though, very impressive work!

My sentiments as well, simply a work of art, and I cannot imagine how long the cad work took! So the UIDS, and dual-stage scavenge pumps?

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George is a Master at machining Aluminum, it will be upsetting to see one of these with a "big curb rash" on it !! Dual stage scavenge pump will only help not hurt. Oil that is remaining (after doing its job of lubricating the bearings and journals ect.) , outside of the Integrated Dry Sump does no good what so ever, and can even hurt the crankcase ventilation system (AOS) if it is too much..

Skip, Will this be a deep sump with 2 qt of extra oil?

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No, the UIDS v2.2 is only 1 inch thick and will have more ground clearance than 2qt deep sumps. I calculate the volume will be about .7qts more than stock. There is plenty of oil in a stock M96 engine, the UIDS v2.2 will just do a better job of managing it.

Excited to subscribe and follow this thread closely. Great work and vision.

Skip, not sure if this was covered, but will the UIDS leverage the stock plastic baffle or X51 type? Or is the design different so that piece will not be used?

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No, the stock baffle and the X51 baffle both divide the sump into three sections, Left, Center, and Right. Both stock and X51 baffles try to keep the oil in the center where the pick-up is. For example on a right hand turn, the Center and Right sections of oil can be held around the center, and if no oil leaks out or gets past , 66.6% of the oil in the sump will be available near the pick-up. On the UIDS v2.2 on a right hand turn,100% of the oil in the sump goes to the left side while the flow valve switches to the left pick-up, so 33.3% MORE OIL will be available for the pick-up. Also the pick-up will be at the deepest dept of oil where the most un-aerated oil is.

Thank you for the kind words but I'm definitely not a master or artist. I didn't make as much progress as I wanted to last weekend due to my work computer needing some repairs that took longer than expected. I still managed to complete most of the valve body block and test fit it in the sump. It needed a little extra clearance after initial fitting. I still need to machine the features where the valves will sit.

That kind of work is somehow on a scale with this effort VIDEO-2021-04-23-19-12-13.mp4

IMHO George is being very modest, in my 45 years of being a Technician and Racer , I have had many custom parts made ,custom pistons , custom rods, custom cams, ( by Arias, Competition Cams) for engines that no "off-the-self "parts were available in my specs, or for what I wanted to do , so they had to be "created"...., and much machine work by local machine shops ( Speed Engineering , Hamner Performance, Howton Performance and many others) and can say his work is Top Notch. I mean just look at it...

Newbie question why not add a little more depth for a quart more oil for flow again I�m no engineer just curious Mike

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Because ground clearance is critical... You can always use the readily available "deep sump spacers" to add more oil capacity if desired....They are available in various thicknesses /capacities..

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Skip, if we do use a spacer, would anything need to change or be adapted?

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If you use a spacer for more capacity (ie. 2qt) on the UIDS v2.2 , then it will come with a spacer for the pick-up tube also (ie. 2qt) and would be installed on the UIDS v2.2 custom pick-up tube..

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That link is broken?

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I've been in CNC machining of varying capacities for 13 years, the past 3 in aerospace with 5-axis milling, it's definitely a thing of beauty. Very excited to see this all come together.

Skip and George, can't wait for the UIDS to be ready for shipping. It will solve many issues. May have to buy 2. One for the car, and one for its artistic beauty on a pedestal

nice machine work for sure, but without much testing, we can't say that this is the solution yet. I really hope it is, but unfortunately I have some pessimism on this being a permanent fix.

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Believe me if I had to pick between ugly/functional and pretty/nonfunctional, it would be the first choice every time. But I only know one way to make things.. Maybe I'll go kick it around the shop floor and dunk it in the waste oil tank so we can all focus on the task at hand.

When everything marketed and sold in huge numbers to fix this problem has not worked, yet suggested all the time - I’d say pessimism is a fine place to start from and in fact - there needs to be more pessimism in general from 996 owners on if the widgets they’re buying for their cars actually work. I know Skip and because of that, I have confidence he will not release anything that does not work and he has indicated he’s open to having the data collected on the unit published in support of its efficacy. What else could you ask for ?

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I like pretty - gold iridite would be fine for me 👍🙂

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This! And the UAOS is a fine example of that. I was at a Porsche dealer getting an alignment done today and pretty sure I sold my tech on a UAOS for his C4S!

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Of course. However, Skip has been around the block and whether the first prototype works perfectly or the 5th, I am confident that he will figure it out. Obviously this bolt on solution won't address every issue that plagues the 96 engine. Nothing does nor will. With that being said, all I am looking for is something to keep the tube in the middle of the deepest pool of oil, which is something that doesn't seem to exist just yet. Add in better/more radiators and an oil cooler coupled with a better aos, and Ims, and we have ourselves more durability. But yes, too early to tel if v 2.2 is the one or if it's 5.5.

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I know, It's hard not to be excited . I'm not sure which gets me more excited, seeing the perfectly uniform and unique machine marks , or seeing the vision come to life !!! Like with the UAOS ,( its is performing beyond expectations) , even allowing more oil level to be ran on the track to help longevity of the engines,, but the unique "Cotes de Geneve" finish adds beauty to the function. The function of the UAOS design in being easier to service ,along with the cost savings over time, the added safety of the design, and the increase in oil capacity has exceeded my vision/expectations.

I have a 4 channel data logger installed on my car to log RPM, oil pressure, oil temp, to gather data before and after the install of the UIDS v2.2 to verify the performance (as much as I can with my driving skillz)..

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How far are you from Barber?

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I always like the quote: "Optimism in engineering is a disaster waiting to happen".

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Never heard that one. Must have been a liberal arts major that said it.

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My home is about 20min from Barber, but the Porsche Dealer I retired from (after my heart-attack) was only 5min from Barber. I was in charge of all the repairs and maintenance (except for tires and brakes that were done at the Track Shop) on the Porsche Driving School Fleet cars . I had to go there many times to test cars on the track for problems that the driving school instructors would have concern over.

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Thanks man !! I had 3 996 with the UAOS installed at Watkins Glen last weekend, and now have two more orders from other 996 owners that were there. !! Word of mouth is the best product promotion ever..

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That I agree with. Bottom line, I want to see this work, as it pains me to see cars with such a good platform like the 986 and 996 hamstrung by issues. Even the fanciest motors, sans dry sumps, see pressure drops. I'd really love a solution that works at a reasonable price...trust me I'd be first in line to buy if it works. Also happy to help test if anyone is interested.

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George, what CAD/CAM software are you using for this project and what machine are you making it on? Chris Cervelli Cervelli Technical Service

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I design in Solidworks and CAM in Fusion 360. So far I've use a Haas vf3, a Brother TCS2C, and a Toyoda FA450

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That lineup puts my antique Hurco BMC20 to shame, for sure.

Impressive solution, hats off to you! Unsolicited but my well meant thoughts and questions upon studying the pictures: -why are the ***** connected via the rod? I would have thought that it is unnecessary and more importantly prevents the ***** from rolling. Rolling resistance is less than sliding resistance, thus yielding a quicker response/switching of the valve and less wear to boot. It could well be a moot point, however, as the ***** might not ever rotate since the distance they can travel inside the tubes might be far too short for them to transition from sliding to rolling when moving from side to side. -using one ball to drag a potentially sticking other ball free is not a neat solution imho as it is has its limits and therefore should/can not be relied upon imho to prevent both ports to the pump entry be stuck open or (worse) closed. -if keeping the connecting rod then consider omitting the two guides for this. They provide no more guidance than the two 'tubes' the ***** roll in but do increase friction and worse, indeed increase the risk of binding (which only one rod guide already would, the 2nd increases it only further). Omitting them reduces complexity and thus cost too. In engineering terms: The lateral movement of the two ***** and rod assembly is sufficiently constrained without the two rod guides. -what is the intention of the ribs on the underside? Cooling effect would be negligible imho as the only colder surface is the perimeter of the part that has ambient air around it but this has comparatively little surface area. At the same time any oil sloshing past it would get aeriated, whatever little amount, unnecessarily. Considering R&R I dread removing old RTV around the ribs close to the actual sealing surface that got squished there when the part was fitted last time prior to removal. If keeping the ribs I'd like to see them at a bit more distance from said surface to prevent this. -are you planning on flaring the entries of the valve and of the other edges around which oil flows on its way into the pump? Not sure if at all critical for the suction performance of the oil pump but the valve will present a reduction of it. More importantly the pump is effectively sucking the oil against both gravity and lat. acceleration so any reduction in the ability of the pump to suck in the oil reduces the lat.acc up to which the oil supply is sufficient. Please take these thoughts as ideas that possibly lead to further improving of your concept and its evolving into a product for the end-user.

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Thanks for the compliment on the design !! I love talking about the UIDS v2.2 and this gives me a chance to do so. Unfortunately your negative thoughts are unfounded but at least you posted them instead of just being pessimistic/skeptical/doubting, and there is not too many that can overwhelm me, so I'll address them briefly ( or in more dept when necessary) .I know it's hard to change peoples mind once made up, so good you are open for it.It's hard to stay positive and optimistic in a situation like this, but someone has to, else no progress will ever be made. - *****::: they do indeed roll, so your criticism and reasoning should be reversed to support the design. -rod : it is not attached to the ***** and is there to prevent both ball valves from closing at the same time (simple robust fail-safe) -rod length : to maintain a min flow at all times -Ribs:: the ribs are on the bottom outside and are for cooling, the oil does not pass over the outside so causes no aeration. - contours: yes, any unnecessarily sharp edges will be contoured. I've done a lot of hand porting heads in my day and know the importance of contour in flow. Like I said in the original post, the design is robust and simple in construction, but is highly sophisticated and technical in design. I ( and George) have spent hundreds of hours thinking on this design, and I'm not through thinking on it yet, but a lot closer to final. If I have missed any points , or if they need more explanation, let me know..

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No shame, Hurco is a good machine. Ultimax!

Skip I'm not qualified to say anything about the design but I wanted to thank you for your contributions to the 996 world. I just had the UAOS installed last week and since my 4s is a forever car I appreciate the long term peace of mind and ease of access should any issues ever arise. I mentioned to my mechanic who installed it that your next great 996 improvement was to be the UIDS. He works primarily on Porsche dedicated track cars and spends many summer weekends at the track with customers. He was keenly aware of the 996 oil starvation issue and upon hearing of the UIDS his comment was "Yes, that issue has forced many of my customers to move on from the 996." Hopefully the UIDS helps return more 996s to the track where they shine. Keep up the GREAT work.

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Thank you so much for the positive Karma !!! I need it now more than ever !!!!

illegitimi non carborundum

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Thank you !! It does feel like a "grind" to have to respond to negative thoughts on a subject/design you are optimistic and passionate about. I don't know if I am strong enough to handle it. Please keep the positive Karma flowing my way, I need it badly !!!!!

This is very clever. Why not have the "ball box" assembly span the whole width of the sump to shorten up the channels from the side reservoir areas to the suction areas? With the way it is now, there is a long "uphill" suction run. I worry about the ***** not doing what you expect them to do. Maybe wire up some prox switches on the ball box so you can know something about what's really happening with the *****. It looks like you have arranged things so the oil flow does not push on the *****. The nightmare scenario is that a ball sticks and the assembly gets out of phase with the G forces. I'd want some warning on that, at least in the testing phase. If this does not make a very obvious improvement, then it proves that the oil does not return to the sump correctly under track conditions. Chris Cervelli Cervelli Technical Service

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Thank you for the compliment Chris !! ( and the intelligent questions in a non-dismissive way ) "Scientifically speaking" ( although I am not a certified scientist) the Atmospheric pressure/Gravity 14.7 (minus ~0.2psi for AOS function so call it 14.5psi) will exert pressure on the oil to push it down and into all crevasses and channels it can until the oil is level (hence the tern "oil level") . The distance from the oil level to the oil pump inlet is all the "suction lift" ( pressure less than 14.5psi) that the oil pump has to produce to make the oil flow. This will be the same on the UIDS v2.2 as it is on the stock pick-up since the oil level and distance to oil pump inlet is not changed. An earlier version of the UIDS had considered the "full length ball box" but was found to not be necessary. I George and I had discussed the proxy sensors on the prototype, but I decided against them, I only need the "Smart Oil Pressure Light" (SOPL) to know how the UIDS v2.2 is performing . (more on the SOPL later) Also consider that all the "new engine designs" have a "computer controlled oil pump" with lots of moving and electrical parts to worry about. The UIDS V2.2 is robust and rock solid design compared to those "new engine designs" .... I I agree ... You Tube

@Porschetech3 i don�t know if you�ve seen the fancy gauge cluster work Martin Hill has done, but it would be cool to integrate your SOPL in a similar manner to his oil temp light. You Tube

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I haven't seen it, that's pretty cool, thanks...

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he�s got a few other cluster mod videos. If you didn�t recognize the name, Martin is the guy who is making the X51 oil pump.

If you have any pull with Martin, get him on this thread or Zbombs thread on "Oil Pressure Stability" to tell us more about his X51 pump and kit. If I understood Skip's reply a few posts back, it could potentially be a good compliment to the UIDS.

The dash video is pretty good but why not ad a color build for oil red and blue for coolant it would make it easier to read on the fly

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I did my best to phrase my thoughts and questions in a neutral/objective way and express in places that certain thoughts were just my opinion. Based on your reaction "Unfortunately your negative thoughts ..." I seem to have not been able to get across that I consider it indeed very fortunate that my thoughts were based on incorrect understanding of your design and as such are not relevant to it. I am sorry I couldn't make this obvious in my prior post. Thanks for taking the time to make things clearer for me by pointing out that the rod is not connected to either ball. (I now notice that rod and ***** have different colours in the cad models, albeit with little contrast). In this case the two rod guides are required, obviously and the ***** are not constrained by the rod and/or its guides. I now also understand that the part pictured replaces the original sump cover instead of being sandwiched between sump and original cover. So two separate covers will seal the galleries leading to the ball valves and not the original cover as I originally thought. Thanks again and best of luck developing it.

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Is it the same Martin who makes the "Big Brake Kits", or is there two different Martin's making upgrades.

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Thanks for remaining open minded and allowing me to change your negative thoughts to positive. Changing someones mind after it's been made up is the most difficult thing in the world. I don't expect anyone to grasp all the technical,dynamic,and hydraulic aspects of the design by looking at it and studying it for a little while ( except for people like Jake and Charles who already like the design) , like I have mentioned , George and I have spent hundreds of hours on this, and while it may "look" simple , it's not. I realize that developing a product in plain view of the people who should be interested in it is probably not the best path to market, but this is suppose to be a "technical forum" so I felt it would be appropriate.

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no idea

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I think it's two different Martin's. Both very talented.

Subscribed, nice work Skip - love seeing what you come up with!

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Thanks Dan, how's things down under?

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Going well! We're still in and out of lockdowns at the moment... ugh. My 996 hasn't been driven for a little bit - I need to get it out! You guys??

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Skip , Luis in Texas. You helped me solved the issue with the ticking on my 3.4 engine. Last week squirrel 🐿 even verified. Carbon deposits, I used CRC GDI. Anyway, I�m going to my mechanic in the am, nothing to mayor, just fixing the blinker return, take off the front bumper to clean between radiators and condenser,and a couple other little things. The sump design seems awesome, based on what I know about lubrication, I definitely believe the ridges will help with oil temp. Anyway I sent my mechanic another 99 owner and he installed your aos, that car may still be there tomorrow. My mechanic doesn�t know exactly who you are and all your vast knowledge, but I will continue to promote you. I like this guy because he is 33 years old and a go getter. I even told him that if he needed capital I would go in with him. He also prepares cars for racing and he also races a boxster. I think he can actively promote your UAOS and once the sump is done this too. The guy is really qualified, used to be part owner of Porsche shop that specialized on air cools and has worked at a few PCA certified shops. PM me and I�ll put you in contact with him. Sorry for the length. Question comment about the system. I read that you stated that using this will add .7 qts to the sump. Will this has an impact, work fine with the digital oil level display in the dash. ?? I have no intention of tracking my car but I welcome the possibility of additional oil in the sump and more than likely lower oil temps. Also I like the fact that it keeps pretty good ground clearance.

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Governor "Maw Maw" Ivey still can't make up her mind about the mask mandates, but other than that we are fine, just a lot of rain.

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I have already talked to the Tech in Houston you mentioned. He was having a little difficulty in installing the UAOS on a 99 c2 belonging to Jose, but I got got him straightened out. The 99 c2 is the tightest fit and the only one that seams to give people trouble, but Kris Murphy can do the complete install on a 99 c2 in 3 hours start to finish and he isn't even a Technician.. He is a nice guy and I told him he was doing the right thing by opening his own shop, stop making the "other guy" rich, and pocket the fruit of your labor. I tried to do that myself about 25 years ago but ran into a city politics roadblock. Thanks for helping me promote my Inventions..

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Skip - practice makes perfect! Thanks again for all of this work, and I cannot wait to send you money for the UIDS V2.2!

So.... when do I get to see more pictures and or video... I'm a visual guy

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We have had to wear masks for the last year, ugh. Hope you're all safe!!

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no problem sir. Got to meet Jose last night. I saw your system installed and Justin put a manometer on it for Jose and I to see. I�m pretty sure a bunch of us here appreciate your work advice and inventions. Jose�s car. Justin�s garage, pretty nice lift. Some refreshments.

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Thanks Kris, you and Zbomb have been two of my biggest supporters especially on the Track !! Soon....George is still making metal chips from billet blocks of metal. Yep, our mandate has lifted. but "Maw Maw" is talking about maybe putting it back in place..lol Yep, thanks, not many people making "hard core power-train upgrades" for the 996 M/96 !!

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since you mentioned power train, car has headers, exhaust fab speed and a tune which I don�t know which company did it. Will an x pipe be worth my while, no I wouldn be buying a new one. Your opinion will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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I bought a 99 Cab 6 speed a few years ago that has Fabspeed headers and Fabspeed catted X-pipe, I like it. The butt dyno doesn't care but my ears hear the difference, a better timbre and a little more exotic sound.

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Not much progress in the last few days. I'll be back at it tomorrow and this weekend.

dumb question with potentially obvious answer. Lets say you make a right turn, oil rushes to the left, right ball drops into "closed" position to prevent sucking air, left oil channel is open, oil is flowing from left side. Now as you return to a straight section of track, what causes the right ***** to return to their "centralized" location to allow feed from both side.

I could add that accelerating straight might be different from braking straight.

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don�t know what it is today. ***** are all over the place, manscape is sponsoring Emelia Hartford with the world fastest corvette C8, then Manscape is also sponsoring the guys from DDE (daily driving exotics) like it or not today I�m surrounded by talk about *****.

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I was thinking the exact same thing. Purple for oil, blue or green for coolant. A blinking light is something that will quickly become something the owner will not pay much attention to, and red lights could be important on the dash for critical failure items.

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Several years ago, I bought an X51 car because I too believed it had all of the original goodies described in literature I could find. As Porschetech3 says, that is not and never was the case. So as a way to kill time during Covid, I tried to research what was up. I am pretty sure I found the answers on a British forum and in the 911 Companion book. The X51 motor that we all seem to see as desirable was a European, one (1) year only, 3.4l motor. I seem to remember it was for model year 1999. A 3.6l version was never built by the factory. Looking through the LN Engineering website the other night, I found that they sell the scavenging pumps. It would be great if Jake or Charles could jump in and discuss the pro's and con's of adding these to a M96 motor. Would they cure the oil starvation issue seen on the track, etc.

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You should read the thread that this one spun off from, mentioned in the OP. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...stability.html

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Sometimes the seemingly simple questions are the hardest to answer/explain. This is due to there being a dynamic element involved and several correct answers and depending on if the answer is to be a simple answer, or a technical one, or a scientific one. The ball will always move in the same manner as the oil. There are several forces at play here, weight of the oil, weight of the ball, Atmospheric pressure, g-force , dynamic forces of the weight/movement/inertia.. I'll let you think on it a while and see if you come up with the correct answer, there are several correct ones. Sometimes giving too much information on technical aspects of a product lessons its appeal to potential purchasers because they don't understand it. I don't wish to be taken to task for any quotes, but will explain or oppose any blatantly false statements. True, and the ports of the UIDS V2.2 are biased to the braking side where more g-force can mover more oil to. This will mean that the 996/997 version will be different from the Boxster/Cayman version. The UIDS v2.2 definitely has two big ***** !!! The integrates dash idea is very cool, but I think the SOPL will be more an add on aftermarket looking "In Your Face" product that will be easy to install, with no "down time" and so visible that it cannot be missed/ignored. Yep, the 3.4 X51 was a ROW product and was also called "Power Pack" option in Japan. All the discussion of the scavenge pumps should be over on Zbomb thread"oil pressure instability" . If you haven't read it I recommend it. He even has installed new scavenge pumps on his car to test with data that was supplied by a Go-Fund-Me account that I set up and was the major contributor through sales of the UAOS. Many people donated to see the tests done, and Zbomb has indicated he is will to more product tests and provide the track test data if the product has a serious change of making a meaningful difference in oil pressure stability.

Just remember, it took a bunch of amateurs to build the Ark, while a bunch of experts built the Titanic

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Hal, now is the time to post your question on Zbombs Oil Pressure Stability thread. 👍

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Thanks. Even though I had read some of that thread back at the beginning, I went back and read all 38 (?) pages of it. It has gone so far that I really don't think I have anything to add. But I will stay up on it, and if an opportunity to participate comes up, I'll jump in.

Exciting new progress happening today on the UIDS v2.2 at the hands of George !!! In other news I have given the green light to a German Programmer to write the program for the SOPL to be used in conjunction with the UIDS v2.2....

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Very exciting! Pretty cool to see such an impressive, daunting engineering effort for our old M96 technology.

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Experts also built Apollo 11, while an amature died in the desert testing his homemade steam-powered rocket. So your mileage may vary on that one. As for me, I'll usually take the experts. BTW, Porschetech3 is for closer to expert than to amature.

Tough crowd. My money is on Porschetech.

Skip, I�m not sure if this post is just taking up space on your thread - sorry if it�s off topic, but I wanted to share my recent original sump plate experience and obvious design flaws. Short story - I backed into an asphalt driveway and the extruded sump plate bolts snagged the concrete curb when I exited and ripped out a bolt. So I had to buy a new plate and need some fab work on the case. interesting the original design has been �upgraded� so the sump plate bolts are now recessed. I assume I�m not the first to experience this issue. Second, the mating surface bolt holes have much more surface area than original design. Third, do you have ANY idea what the two three-point star features are on the new design? It looks like your design offers recessed bolt holes and offers robust mating area around the bolt holes compared to original design. Is it fair to say that a machined plate is functionally stronger than a cast plate? I assume the updated oem plate is cast. Original sump plate with broken bolt hole What are these two �star� things for on the superseded plate? Original plate profile Fab work required Profile of superceded plate with extruded �star� feature Superceded plate allows bolt heads to recess.

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Yes the early 3.4 engines had a sump plate with the bolt heads exposed. I have seen quite a few that were broken off and damaged the case. Seen many engines replaced due to this. (personally I would have repaired them). Yes the UIDS has recessed bolt heads and is billet not cast. To answer your last question, the three pointed post bosses are put in the as a bump-stop for the two big coolant channel Welch Plugs that are in the cases above them and are put there to keep the Welch Plugs from falling/blowing out the bottom. A very rare, but not unheard of failure.

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Those star things prevent the freeze plugs installed in the case from falling out. I am not aware of these falling out even on engines that lack the star things. Chris Cervelli Cervelli Technical Service

Thank you, Chris and Skip. Safe to say the early 3.4�s, including my �99, were not without unique weak spots. Another reason even non racers may want to consider upgrading.

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Just call me Dr. h.c. Porschetech3 !!! All I know is when I get a vision that I think will make an engine (in this case an M96) a better/faster/ or more durable engine and I think I can accomplish the task, I DO IT..

Skip Just wanted to point out, how your ingenuity, passion and entrepreneurship have fired up our crowd of 996 owners. It seemed like 2021 was going to follow suit with discussions about how all our cars were going to need new engines due to bore scoring. Then along comes PT3, with a cat out of the bag announcement about another new enhancement. This is not a thanks for your efforts on this new endeavor, this is a BIG thank you for turning around the attitude and outlook of all the 996ers here in this forum. As you know many more are here following this thread, than posters in it stating their enthusiasm. For this Skip, you get a biggie size that a boy. You brightened up all 996 of owners attitude, we have a little more bounce in out step, thinking about how much we can enjoy our cars. Personal thanks from me for my UAOS. David

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Thanks David for sending me the positive Karma, and also for sending the positive Karma on behalf of the peanut gallery. George and I truly need it ... Also thanks to all who have sent positive Karma in private messages and offers to help in testing ect.. One more flow test and then "in-car" testing will begin !!!!!

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will installing FVD x pipes set a CEL on my 99, no they don�t have cats. Thanks. Get that sump ready , I do want that cooler temp and more oil in there. Here in Texas we need those two features. It was even hotter yesterday. It was worst yesterday. By 9am in the morning it was already feeling like 99. Broccoli cheese rice casserole to go along with BBQ ribs and jalape�o cheese sausage. Got to eat.

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Yes, without catalytic converters you will get a fault code. You need to jump on board with the UAOS also...if you want to save a few bucks (who doesn't?) DeJeeper has a slightly used one that will not fit his GT3 engine I'm sure will be up for sale when he does his part-out. Send me some of them ribs...made me hungry.

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If by "sending positive karma" you mean bothering you daily to send that bad *** MF'in piece of kit my way to beat the absolute **** out of it on track and show everyone how great it is.... you're welcome Seriously, the fact Skip has not put my number on the "do not accept calls from this person" list is, frankly... amazing.

Valve components completed, outlet flange completed. Everything lines up on the block perfectly. I still need to make the bottom covers and the screens.

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Thanks men you are the guy. To anybody that wants to do sausage, this is what you buy handcrafted in San Antonio Texas. If they are not the best you ever had give them a call and they will send you a refund, Three generations hand made that�s the stuff you want. Their bacon, chorizo, polish and all other products are out of this world. Three years ago I had a chance to tour their facility and honestly they are the Jake Raby of sausage making.if you see their stuff buy it you will never regret it.

@zbomb @Porschetech3 Riesentoter PCA has an upcoming event at Palmer Aug 20-21st with pretty low sign-ups at this point. It may end up being two run groups with lots of track time. Any chance it would be ready for testing by then?

You're an animal George. Tom, I likely won't make that event but have at this point 5 days scheduled between now and OCT and will likely add a day or 2 along the way.

@Porschetech3 What you are doing here is a huge milestone in the 996's timeline. You are doing yeoman's work, here.

George - amazing progress on getting this turned from pictures in your design software to reality! Every update is looking better and better and can't wait to see this on a running car.

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I'm sure in-car tests will be underway by then, but I don't want to commit to any dates or places. Once the initial shakedown is finished, we will probably start on Prototype #2 . Take another bow George !!!

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Skip. I'll be at that event and if you would like me to test, I can. I also have at least 6 more days scheduled after that between now and October. No pressure, just really excited.

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same here if youd like to try it on a mid engine car with a very visible oil pressure gauge

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Thanks to everyone for the testing offers !! I will be doing the initial shakedown on the UIDS v2.2 on my car (Sally) for various reasons . ( Mainly because I will be condemned by the peanut gallery for not testing on my own car).I have a 4 channel data logger to get RPM and oil pressure data driving as hard as "I" can to see the performance. I know the UIDS v2.2 will need to tested to a higher degree than I can do, but at the same time I will be tuning the SOPL that will accompany the UIDS v2.2 to prove it's effectiveness. I have a feeling that once I install the UIDS V2.2 on Sally, I will have a hard time prying it away from Sally...

Sally will love her new Jewelry.

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I'm going to surprise her with it, she doesn't know yet, but she has be curious why the new data logging stuff is being put on.

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Hah! That's always a surprise!

Skip, any current updates?

Sorry guys, no updates. I was out of town the past few days at a funeral. I will be back at it this week, hopefully wrapping up all the fabricated parts so we can start testing.

George has been back at it, it is on its way to me now to final assembly, inspect, one last flow test, then onto Sally's engine it will go... Stamp for making screens for pick-ups stamped screen, still needs framed bottom covers done in "Cotes de Geneve"

Everything on it's way to Skip. My part is done for now. I apologize if seems that the project isn't moving at a quick pace, but I've done far too many projects at someone else's (rushed) pace. This project deserves the time and effort to be done properly.

Beautiful! The finishing touch would be an anodized finish in customer’s choice of color.

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^^^^ Please, no apologies necessary. Take as much time as you need. Please don't feel rushed. We are like children when we see a new thing that we want, gimme gimme gimme! Delayed gratification will win the day! Continued thanks to you and Skip for your untiring, and public, work for these cars.

What surface finish and coating would give the least thermal resistance to air? That surface has some amount of air moving across it. It would be good, if not cost prohibitive, to create a surface that would more easily give away some heat the air moving across it.

Yes, please be patient, once the flow volume test and the pressure drop tests are completed, things will move along very quickly

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Probably a standard Mil-Spec Hardcoat anodize would be the best option, type II or III. We utilize this on a lot of the aerospace components we manufacture, most all of which are fluid motion and transfer for fuel delivery, and fuel pumps themselves. Generally the coating itself is more for corrosion resistance and to create a surface harder than tool steel for added wear properties. Having this done would help slightly with heat dispersion, but only to a small degree. Surface finish would have a greater impact, which is why on a larger scale, heat sinks (veined material) do so well at heat dissipation, the same can be said on a microscopic level, but to a smaller degree.

How long does it take the machine to carve out that piece of aluminum?

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Probably around an hour of cutting time for the sump plate alone. Machining technique for making one of something is different than machining ten or a hundred. The cost/benefit of me tweaking the machining method to reduce the cycle time pays off much more as quantity increases. Tweaking process is never really finished. Always an improvement can be made on the tooling and machining method or workholding method, especially as new technology emerges or becomes accessible/affordable. ​​​​​​​

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​​​​​​​George, one of these days we have to meet. I am in The western suburbs of Chicago. Had the chance to meet Mike Murphy about a month ago which was fantastic. A lot of good guys on this thread.

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Let's do it. Message me.

I'm just super impressed how transparent you guys have been on the idea, the prototype MFG and how you think it will work. It's a hard problem and for you guys to give some of the M96 folks that work the cars hard hope that a solution to such a long standing issue is in the works with the level of transparency you have really shows your commitment to get it right.

If considering a Hard Coat anodize, ref MIL 8625F, take note ................. All critical machined dimensions with tol's.must be compensated for the process. During the correct process, alloys are leached from all surface areas. Crystalline growth begins below the surface to above the surface. Finished proces is the sealed to close pores of crystals. There is a spec for min radius of machined edges to allow proper growth. Find pdf of above mentioned Mil spec. My suggestion would be to not coat the inside of the pan (which would happen with Hard Coat) or interacting components with critical fits unless there are running surfaces which would benefit from a hard surface. But dimensions must be compensated. Many finish options for outer surfaces. Godspeed!

Yes, hardcoat anodize ends up with a surface that's essentially synthetic ruby, and it's indeed very hard, and it's heat transmission isn't very good. The hardcoat crystals build up perpendicular to the surface so 90 degree corners end up with a notch in them. I wouldn't bother for this application as it's very expensive and I don't see the gain. Most aluminum is just left bare, once it gets a coat of aluminum oxide on the surface it's almost completely passivated. The exceptions are some of the very high strength alloys in the 7xxx series.

Doesnt matter to me what color it is as long as its not pink. Just want it to be durable and work. If it's only available in pink, I will suck it up and get matching racing shoes.

This is shaping up to be the best thread i've read on this board .. keep it up

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Thanks Justin !! I received the UIDS v2.2 from George Friday, everything was in perfect condition due to the exemplary crating .. I will be donig final assembly, inspection, setting up for flow volume tests and suction pressure tests tomorrow ..pics of flow tests to follow.... I'm confident it will pass all tests with flying colors, but will be interesting and fun to do them for data's sake.

Just a quick update; Here is a cutaway M96 with the bank 2 upper half cutaway to access the internals. ( a sternotomy), and to hook-up some by-passes (double by-pass), and run the pump on an air motor... You can see the pressure gauge plumbed into the front of the engine oil pump cover, and a drilled and tapped port inside of the channel to the oil pump inlet to read the suction of the oil pump, and a long drive shaft through the IMS tunnel to drive the oil pump. a digital tachometer was used to measure RPM. Done with this , next step is to install the UIDS v2.2 onto Sally's engine for some "in-car tests" hopefully this weekend if my back holds out...Please be patient...

That is all way above my pay grade - BUT I LOVE IT !

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I knew you would !! I'll check with George, but I think he and I have selected you to do the first "Track Testing" on the UIDS v2.2 since your engine is well documented and is undoubtedly qualified. We may adopt some of FSI's business practices and use a questionnaire like "the Gauntlet" to screen out anyone looking to buy the UIDS to gain some type of "Engine Insurance", I want them to buy it for what they are going to use it for, and for what it can do !!

Outstanding Skip!

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Skip, can you explain the purpose of this surgery? Just to read oil pump pressure?

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That would be awesome - I am happy to help (and hopefully see some benefit) from such a motivated effort you and George have put in.

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Thanks Bill !! Not just to read oil pressure, but to read oil pressure under a lot of different scenarios e.g engine angles, oil level, RPM ect. By using the cutaway, I can control the angle of the engine (tilting it ) and also control how much oil is in the sump e.g. 1 qt , 2 qt , 3 qt , ect. I can read the oil pressure and also the suction pressure of the oil "intake" .saves a lot of time.. Interesting note: With the oil pick-ups of the UIDS v2.2 located at the sides, the engine can lay completely on it's side (vertical 2 G's) and still maintain oil pressure with only 2 qts oil in the sump. Also to keep having to heat the oil to get to operating viscosity, I used Glycol for a flow medium, it has a viscosity of 17 cst which is the same viscosity as 5w-50 at 100C ( 212F).. If I had a couple million $$$ for R&D ,,,I would use one of these for testing the UIDS V2.2 ..This was developed by Porsche for sump testing AFTER the M96 was discontinued !!! You Tube

This is all pretty freaking awesome to see unfold!

Very cool Skip !

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Thanks !!! I hope it's not TMI...I don't expect many to grasp all of what is happenig/importance, but certainly don't want to overload anyone with TMI..

Not often do you see a product get developed with so much transparency and details of the process. Love it. Huge kudos here and can't wait to see how the testing goes, Skip. Keep on keeping on

Skip, The whole process has been excitng to watch and the bench test of the UIDS is awesome. Can�t wait for the test results to be completed with installation in �Sally� Jack

To echo others, I love seeing the details. No such thing as TMI ! (Edit: and your testing rig is brilliant!) I'd be interested in your various test conditions. What do you think the worst case conditions would be? Maybe cold oil, so it's viscous, but with slow speed switchbacks? Slow speed means not alot of G's to slosh the oil back and forth. Maybe you already tested shallow switchbacks (sloshing) on your test stand? What do you think is the most likely failure mode? Can the ***** get stuck? (From grit or RTV in oilpan.) What happens if they do? I think then it would only pull from one side? I know you've definitely thought this all through, I'm just very curious about your testing plans!

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Thanks guys !! No worry's on cold viscous oil ! The oil screens on the uids will protect against the bigger debris, the ball guides were given a lot of cle�rance to keep from sticking from small stuff, and lots of hours went into the details of this to get it perfect.George came up with a brilliant self-centering seat to meet the needs of the loose clearances of the *****/guides... The devil is in the details !! Sally is ready for her new jewelry and it will be fun testing/ driving around, and a whole lot less tireing than all the previous work.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/459x317/neddal_fde6181c2d566825dba4eef2bbe7be0157de5bf6.png

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This is insane reminds me when I was at Valvoline on product development at the engine lab. Skip FYI yes at that viscosity cst at 100 glicol has the viscosity of an sae 50 oil, to know the low number you have to run cold crank and etc. I m willing to bet is not a 5w. Anyway I�m not tracking my car but I want to get this thing. Also if you don�t mind please monitor oil temp to see what it does. On my car and I don�t know if the previous owner installed a lot temp thermostat, now that the rads are super clean and I am running close to 33 percent af/coolant even when I�m going to 140 and really running it hard the water temp is between the 1 and the 8. Next I�m going to see if a can get a bottle of redline water wetter.

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This is rather completely awesome. This is the sort of test rig that I would have used. One note: completely on it's side is not a position that any driver ever wants to be in! 2G of lateral acceleration isn't completely on the side, it's actually only 63 degrees from horizontal (inverse tangent of 2 is 63.4). Did you test cornering and braking accelerations/tilting? I think the worst case is braking hard into a right hand turn, that would be tilting the engine 45 degrees left to right and 45 degrees front to back.

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So that way the test rig is easier to mechanize, build and control if the freedom of movement is dynamically limited by stops to replicate approximately 1.5G in 2 dimensions and have a total range of motion of 90 degrees? Skip could have a static stop for one plane testing at 60 degrees for max limit load test of 2G?

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So, completely on it's side (90*) is 27* more than 2 G's? Hard braking and right turn is "worst case" for the centrally located pick-ups, but the dual pick-ups of the UIDS v2.2 actually LOVES this scenario.. Remember, I'm 65 yo with heart conditions, lol Please be patient...

Take care of that heart!

UIDS v2.2 " in-car tests " = PASS

can't wait for more details.

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Somebody's not sleeping to get these tests done this fast. In my industry, if you know you'll have results in a day, you tell people you'll be done in a week. 3 days, 2 weeks. etc. Then you put the data out a day or 2 before commitment and everyone is really happy! This is going to be fun!

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Extreme braking from 100mph to 0 =Pass 12 high RPM pulls to 7300rpm =Pass Dead stopped on Death Hill, nose up, full launch = Pass High speed cornering on Clover-leaf i22-i65 = Pass The UIDS install was so easy and fit like a glove. Just 2 bolts for the flange tube, push up the UIDS onto the flange and install the (13) 6mm bolts. I pushed myself a bit to get the testing done, I was really tired but wanted to get finished a bask for a few days before next step, but George needed a play-by-play of the testing so I figured I would go ahead let y'all know also. Now I'll take a few days and bask, just driving around to see if I can think of another test besides "Track Testing".. BTW :: all these tests were done with the oil level at MIN (1 qt low) on purpose to see how good it was...( Pass)

Awesome. Will this be available for pre-order?

Nice! I would purchase one.

Ditto! I’m ready! I’ll also be buying the UAOS

Congrats Skip! What are your next steps on the UIDS before you release it for sale?

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What are the criteria for a passing grade? Congrats and thank you for trying to build a better mousetrap.

Great news Skip. It is wonderful to find people who are working to improve the 996 with innovative products to improve reliability. I am looking forward to this coming to market. I have three 996s which I have UAOS for and looking forward to getting the UIDS for each vehicle also.

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x2, throw me on the list.

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Same. Will go well with my UAOS and I'll post updates from Sears Point (aka Sonoma Raceway)

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Next step is to get it on a car that has consistent, documented, track related oil pressure issues..

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pretty sure Jason ' Zbomb" is on deck for this

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Jobyt, That would be fantastic. Let us know if you are running the UAOS with the return pipe as well as how much oil you are running. Same with if you are running a deep sump! Any data is good data!

Congrats to George and Skip for successful initial testing. I�m continually impressed with the transparency demonstrated from these guys� I have confidence that the trend will continue as they progress down the road to market and I think the support they are getting from the folks posting their interest in purchasing is great. I don�t forget, these guys are doing something hard, doing it in the open and competing against products that have been the �go to�s� - for better or worse depending on your opinion. They have invested their time and money to make these cars better - I hope the results continue to be positive and they see a well deserved big return on that investment. I really believe developments like these can save engines - 10, 15, 25, 35, 45K engines from the destruction that occurs from oil starvation and for those of us who push the motors hard and don�t have a ton of money - the impact could be game changing. Thanks guys and good luck going forward !

I need this in my life.

Remember... You can always buy 2. One for the car and one to put on display in your living room as modern art. 😁

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It would BY FAR the coolest, most baller looking race car part you can put on one of our engines (until skip and George decide to make an ITB kit� that could give the sump a run for its money) I�m super vain - so I dig that kind of thing.

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Thanks for asking . The criteria for a passing grade is absolutely "0psi oil pressure drops" under any circumstance. The oil pressure should follow RPM precisely with the only delta variance being temperature/viscosity.. These tests Pass . Extreme braking from 100mph to 0 =Pass 12 high RPM pulls to 7300rpm =Pass Dead stopped on Death Hill, nose up, full launch = Pass High speed cornering on Clover-leaf i22-i65 = Pass George and I had thought ahead and designed mounting holes in the floor of the UIDS v2.2 to mount baffles, swinging doors, or slosh plate if tests proved it was needed. I was finally able to produce a pressure drop on 40 mph hard switch-back tests at "Toes of the Dragon". .. Toes of the Dragon switch-backs test= not Pass So George will be machining a perforated slosh plate to mount 1 inch above the floor on 1 inch stands-offs in the pre-drill/taped holes..this was not totally unexpected.(although a gut punch at the time).. Toes of the Dragon test = will be re-tested.....Please be patient

Skip, please for the LOVE OF GOD, take my money (well, more of my money). This is so exciting. I almost want to stop tracking my car until I have this. With my luck, I will blow my motor the day before you ship it out to me.

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you know better than to say that out loud.

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Hopefully the Porsche Gods will smile on us all !!! Kris , I can't take your money yet, George won't let me..lol .. We are not through with the testing/development or calculated $$$ , so George says No money, just a "wait list". The LIST :: Zbomb Kris Murphy GC996 golock911 158Sierra (3) Billup MoeMonney 996clubsport jobyt sdmatt

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please add �Mike Murphy� to the list!

Get me on there too

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Please put me on your wait list for UIDS. Thank you, Jnels

I’ll need 2

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Skip and George, We have waited 20 years for the UIDS. Rather have you take your time and do it right, rather than rush it. As you can see with the wait-list, you have the support of many.

I believe I said take my money when you spilled the beans about it. I�m definitely a buyer.

Gents, I�m declaring for the UIDS Waitlist. Another cool way to keep my car healthy forever. Cheers

Add me as well

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Everyone wants the new shiny thing NOW, myself included. In this case, I could not agree more with Glenn here - after the debacle of M96 sumps over the last 20 years, I want something worth the wait that takes an M2 chucking 660GR rounds right into the status quo and shatters it into a million indiscernible pieces. I'm ready when you tell me to be ready and I'm cool with whenever that is. The fact you have the ***** to tell us when something DOESN'T go perfect in your testing is why you're my guy Skip - the fact you were smart enough to include provisions to make plan B and more easy to integrate shows the thoughtfulness in design. Good luck brother - you have a lot of the good guys rooting for you, as seen from the "list support" (and me too )

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This is what I was waiting for as well. Now I know you have chance of actually succeeding. I suspect you have already done more testing than the LN and Mantis sumps received combined. Keep at it. If I were you I would have George make a few more prototypes and get them on cars with data. A parallel testing schedule will get you to the end much faster. Chris

These results are really really cool. And doubly so because of how open you are about it. Thanks for continuing to publish the results. If we could get all the cars on this current list outfitted with sensors now, and collect data on each engine before and after adding the UIDS, we would have the unrivalled data set. It would cover a range of current setups, varying engine health, engine oils, driving styles, and then finally the effect of the UIDS. The minimum sensors needed(I think) would be Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, Lateral Accelerometer, Inline Accelerometer, Throttle position sensor. Nice to have would be water temp. I've never tried to source a data acquisition system for a car so I don't yet have a recommendation. Guess I need to start looking. Off to Google. So cool to see this happening.

updated LIST :: 10/8/2021 1:28am Tom Loder Zbomb Kris Murphy GC996 golock911 158Sierra (3) Billup MoeMonney 996clubsport (2) jobyt sdmatt Mike Murphy yaz996 Jnelso hatchet15 Quadcammer Geoff.T deporto TheChunkNorris NYPOWR4 plpete84 Tangerine Dream driverx Dk27 996.solo2 Justin76 tommelton wab_jr Garrett376 lazyfatdog SoundnSpeed cwheeler VGP C2-996 Red998 Sveach756 mileage andino Bbiela Click link below vvvvvv to sign up for wait list https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...Bts%3D613cbbfa

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Yep! Got a 10 year old AIM solo which I have to upgrade to the AIM Solo DL, assuming the DL will provide the data needed. Big thanks to Jason who was going to take a look and see if it's sufficient. FYI, it's approximately $700. If it does work or if there is a better suggestion, maybe we can get a quantity discount either way.

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Even though i can not help in the data collection, im probably in for a AIM this winter. Lmk if u figure out a group buy.

I’ll reach out to Matt with what we’re looking for and see if he wants to suggest anything and if he would be open to a group buy. I think he’s at the Glen this weekend so hold tight for next week.

I'd like to be added to that list as well.

I’m in baby

You better believe I'm IN! Loving the updates.

Put me on the list please 👍🏽

Add me on the list please! I've not had the courage to track my 996 yet because of oil pressure issues I've had on local roads even. Really missing all of my track buddies.

Add me too please

Add me to the list please and thank you

Will the new sump fit all M96 engines or just the one in the 996?

Skip - add me to the list as well. -Tom

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I see you have an 06 Cayman,, the UIDS v2.2 will get tested on the Cayman/Boxster as well.

This is a fantastic effort and really exciting. I'd very much like to be on the wait list for my M97. My deep sump isn't helping enough on the track or the street (as you all know)!

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Thank you!

There is going to be a flood of used LN Deep Sumps in the classifieds soon.

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......as well as FVD and Mantis.ect..

Hi Skip - Add me to the list !! Great work.

Hey Porschetech are we getting an early bird special?? if not I’m still in

Add me to the list!! Love the work. (997.1 with LN deep sump (which id like to keep for additional cooling on track))

I've just read the whole thread Amazing work & product. Love it! Please add me to the list (996.1)

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Edited as George requested ​​​​​​

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I appreciate the enthusiasm, but please don't disparage our business partners in our thread. This goes for FSI as well. You can say whatever you want in your own thread.

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Sure thing George. I edited my post.

Erhumm Zbomb, there is ZERO data on this. Why do you think it will be any better than your deep sump? Racers have already tested this type o ball-valve and concluded it does not work when you are continuously cornering. At least with their design. At ever turn-change it will 'chug' some air and eat your engine. Not to mention eating your oil pump due to too high dP, between inlet/outlet, at high RPMs. There is a reason the majority of engines only have a very short tube(no valves) between the pump itself and the pick-up point.

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Translation: There is no data on this. But please, allow me to state my opinion, also without data.

Nick - I don’t “think”. I don’t know what I don’t know. I HOPE it works. That will need to be proven out by data to meet my definition of WORK. Who’s Racers - never heard of him or seen any of his data. Pass along the contact.

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I've never seen someone so hell bent on automatically discounting the testing and development of others (of which is based on accumulated track and R&D data), when said person has absolutely fvck all to show of their own admission. Hold your comments until things progress and more data is collected, this is a new design for fvkcks sake, give it a rest. People like you will never slow the forward of man, only back track the world of your own.

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Chris this is the same guy who says the oil pump drive shaft on m96 is " designed to break as a failsafe to keep from damaging the engine".........SMFH

Amazing work, add me to the list

Keep innovating guys. Last I checked, not many folks are using buggy whips anymore. Just saying...

�Racers have already tested this type o ball-valve and concluded it does not work when you are continuously cornering� (Nick L- the man, the legend...[in his own mind]) ^^^Must be speaking of all the Porsche oval track cars...

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It's not Zomb's sump... I honestly wish your criticism was coherent, you might actually help us all find a solution.

Look, at least give them a F'in chance to provide the data, then have a healthy debate.....Good grief, we all are the beneficiaries to the entire enterprise....cheer them on!

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He owns it, but yeah i know he hasen't built it. Sorry for my wording, I will polish my english better so that the grammatical officers here will be happy. Geroge, the big problem with my input is that it usually does not go inline with the 'big boys' opinion....I'm an engineer and calculate/investigate/test to find my solutions, I don't search for it on the internet. This causes people to mainly ridicule me over and over and over(case in point PT3).....I'm not that interested to put hours and hours to help to just face that same shlt. Check the 'oil instability thread', +700 post to find out that I was correct that changing scavenge pumps and filling oil full would help. I didn't find that solution on any forum, that's engineering. And nicely not a single 'thank you' for my work. Good luck with your product...and if you read my last post you will find I gave you some key things to check.

Nick, as I said to you in the IMSB threat. I appreciate your opinion. But sometimes I can't figure out what your intentions are. Further, there is no doubt in my mind that as a 996 owner, you most certainly care about your car. Do me a favor and take a look at your comments that set of this current fist fight. What did you think was going to happen? You attacked a product and more importantly, don't offer any solutions? How else do you innovate without solutions? Stop being the martyr and help us find solutions. We are wasting too much time with these freeking fist fights.

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Nick_L when I was younger I used to be amazed at what Engineers knew, as I got older I'm amazed at what engineers DON'T KNOW. As a 45 year Dealership Technician, and an Amature Racer/Designer, I have spent my life fixing things engineers F88ked-up on. Your Mulligan count here is way too high..(plus your attitude is repulsive) I do not intend to follow ANY of your opinions, advice, theories, or "help"..

PT3, engineers built the engine( and car) you'r working on. Try starting from scratch if you don't like it. Zbomb, read here: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-wet-sump-idea

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No need to start from scratch, they did a good job ( but not as good as it could have been) but just stopped improving it 20 years ago..and moved on to new designs...( where they are making new mistakes, or old mistakes in a new way)

Skip, how much more oil do you think the UAOS can handle. Can't remember if Chris said he ran an extra 2 or 3 quarts?

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GTFOH with that ****. This is the "Racers" that your were referring to that have proved MY design doesn't work ? Testing in a plastic tub with a drill? The problems they encountered in the "tests" are not present in the UIDS v2.2 . Even though the design is similar to the Christen Valve for Acrobatic Airplanes, it is not identical and was not based on that valve. These issues were fixed by using a solid pin between the ***** instead of a spring, and a brilliant self centering seat by George that seats at ANY angle above horizontal 0 degrees. Your opinion is not welcome here.in my thread, if you want to address Zbomb, do so in his thread or start your own..

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I remember Chris said he ran 2 quarts overfull on the wet sump race engine with "no AOS/CCV system." I think the UAOS with Track Drain can handle 1-2 quarts overfull , but needs to be carefully tested. I think I will build a "Special Accumulator and sensor/harness" for testing the limits of the UAOS, if Zbomb will put in on and do the tests. If I owned the car, I would just add a pint at a time untill I saw signs that it had reached the limits, then back off a little ,but on someone elses car, I would be more cautious and build a special test Accumulator/sensor/harness as an added measure.

Sent the file off to one of those online Laser metal cutting places that offer quick services for the Horizontal Baffle Plate . I should receive it in a few days and will keep the thread updated.here is a JPEG pic for the Baffle Plate. In the meantime I have been driving Sally around performing the same test as before over and over (except the "Toes of the Dragon Test"), just get a good feel for it , plus she is my daily ride... Horizontal Baffle Plate

This is not an opinion, it’s fact, so I guess it’s ok to post? This is what the forces look like in your valve. What happens is that when there is flow you have a differential pressure(P2-P1) across the closed ball. This pressure(force F1) will push the ball valve closed. Pressure P1 will decrease as the oil flow rate goes up, increasing force F1. The Christen is tuned for the aviation engines it is used in so that the valve is normally sucked closed and only switched when it sucks air. You don’t want it to flapp around just because of turbulence. When it sucks air the differential pressures reduces to almost zero and the valve is free to move according to gravity. Here is a picture to show you the forces.

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Like I said, your thoughts are not welcome or needed here. You have ZERO credibility with your many Mulligans. I take offence to you using our drawings to illustrate your "negative thoughts".. The UIDS v2.2 has already PASSED these tests, and I drive it every day. IF you don't cease and desist , one of us will get banned or this thread will get shut down, ( or I will shut it off) ,,because it will get ugly !!!

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Keep racking up miles!

Getting caught up on this thread. I'm very eager to see you guys succeed with this! Looking forward to more updates!

Watching this one,, nice idea. FWIW,, I saw a less elegant but similar idea on a piece of industrial equipment, it had 2 large suction ports with similar check ***** feeding the pump, and a very small tube carrying pressure side fluid to the check *****, the tube went in at a angle and was about the size of a typical engine oil squirter, It looked like it was a small amount of high pressure fluid to break the check ball loose before the system lost intake flow. The source of the flow was right after the pump before the pressure relief valve. Could have also been a relief primer to keep some fluid in play in case it lost prime for a second.. But an interesting flash back...

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That's an interesting application, It's strange to need a dual inlet pump on an industrial engine that usually doesn't have a lot of G-force, they are usually stationery or very slow moving. The Novel Flow Control Valve on the UIDS v2.2 was designed to have a minimum pressure differential drop (restriction) across it, therefore the ***** can switch easily. The weight of he ***** themselves is enough to beak the seal and switch. This is evident in the "in-car" road tests that have already been passed, long hard turns that transition from left to right and not even a 1 psi dip in oil pressure. I went for a 1 hour test yesterday driving as hard as I could and not even a wiggle in oil pressure. The Horizontal Baffle Plate has been Laser cut, and status shows "preparing to ship " . Please be Patient..

Thanks Skip! I�m so interested to see how this works out! I�d love to have such a safety and will for sure support when this is available. Keep it up! Shawn

so i think we can all agree that this is exciting stuff. I'm just curious if you have the vaguest idea on price. Something as vague as over $1k and less than $2500 I think would be useful. Just gives people an idea of what they are in for. If you don't think you're there yet, thats fair also.

And don’t forget to design the custom aluminum skid plate to protect the UIDS!

So going forward after UAOS, UIDS, their creation, and testing....and manufacturing to us fanatics, looking ahead can you give us an idea of what future concepts have been stored in Dr. h.c. Porschetech3's mind? I am surmising a rather restless mind in spite of the current testing of the UIDS with Sally and eventually others.

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I hope it's something easy like shift ***** or key chains.. lmao. I think we have our hands full for a while, fine tuning the UIDS and broadening its application to 986/987.

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�and custom skid plate.

Perhaps, somebody will come up with an alternative to the plastic fantastic coolant tank that has a short life span and could be made in such a way to be easier to remove and install or made from metal, yet each time it fails I am forced to purchase the same flawed tank and pay a nosebleed price for a piece of plastic that expands and contracts in a rather tight hot environment and is designed to fail. My newly installed UAOS replaced another plastic problem, LN now offers billet coolant tank caps and oil caps certainly the flawed coolant tank would be on my hit list.

The Horizontal Baffle Plate has been Laser cut, and status shows "preparing to ship " . Please be Patient..[/QUOTE] 🍿

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Logging equipment has to run on 80% grades.. hydraulic tanks are very special usually ridiculously large so they can be deep enough to ignore the angle, this was a track skidder that runs around at pretty brisk speeds at stupidly high angles in the woods.. I just happen to be around when they had it all torn apart and thought the inlet to the pump was kinda trick..

subscribed - can't wait for more updates Skip! - looks like some great engineering coming our way!!

So this dry sump only really benefits people who track their car? Any benefit to people like me who do not track? Increase longevity of our engine etc?

Some experience pressure drop on the street....

Unless your car suffers from these pressure drops in twisty roads and high on/off ramps, then you are correct. It�s not really very safe to be looking at your dash oil pressure gauge during spirited driving or tracking, but you could mount a camera somewhere and look at the video afterwards to see if your car suffers from this. The pressure drops are noticeable because the pressure goes down, even when the RPMs don�t change or are going up.

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understood.

I am one. There was another a couple years ago that had drops in the mountain twisties.

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can I get added? UAOS has been great!

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skip did ever post the website to sign up for the wait list ? It looks like it was suppose to be on this post but it�s not there

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You have been added.. I posted the sign-up link on that post, but the Porsche Gods or someone moved it to my signature. ( I didn't do it...lol) . Anyway I have been adding in people because most just post in here and not many used the link...

Please be patient.. we are still fine tuning the valve action to get it perfect.. Here are a couple pic of the UIDS v2.2 installed.. and a video of one of the road tests. Note: the quck small blips you see in OP are the vario-cam activation on the 5-chain engines when you tip on/off the throttle and at 5200RPM... https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lAf...ew?usp=sharing Please be Patient ..

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awesome!!!

If this works for M97, count me in

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+1 to this. This is some seriously exciting stuff!

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The m97 shares the same architect and no additional testing will be necessary, although 986/987 (reverse mounted engines) will receive separate testing.. Y'all have been added to the List.

I did use the link and I just wanted to confirm that I was on the list. This looks very cool. Thanks.

I'm interested in the system. However I have a 997.1 C2 and the pre-order form doesn't allow me to pick a year that is later than 2004.

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There�s a �pre- order form� ?...

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

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You're added Thanks guys.. Tom Loder made the "pre-order" form to help keep track of interested party's I'll have him add the 997,986, and 987 to the form. Thanks for pointing that out..

I�ll be signing up as soon as the form is good to go for 997.1 m97

I went to check the pre-order form today and the 997.1 years have been added as well. Now I am on the list! Btw, I'd recommend posting this in 997 forums as well. I'm sure there are a good amount of 997.1 folks that will be interested in this as well.

Just curious if any progress has been made. I bought a Supercharged Corvette C5 Z06 for track use and I'm not in love. It's getting cooler here in CA which means it's PB season at the track. I'm hoping to run my 996 this year.

^^^ I can't imagine loving any Corvette after driving a 911 (I've only driven 996 & 991variants) for a substantial amount of time...

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Yes we are making consistent progress. George and I talk almost every day. He is busy making versions and I am busy testing them. Latest tests included a Manometer test of the slight pressure increases/decreases in the tunnels and center valve. Unfortunately no video or pictures as I had lost my phone Saturday evening, (either at NAPA or Shell Station) and was without it until Tuesday when I broke down and went and bought a new one after I had turned my house and car upside down looking for it. First time I had ever lost a phone..lol It takes weeks of testing and making changes for 30 seconds of update...Please be patient...

Thanks for the update, Skip! Patiently waiting here.... Not sure if you had an iPhone or an Android phone, but both have the Find My Phone feature that may be worth a try if you haven't yet.

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Thanks Pete !! Luckily my Housekeeper found my phone today laying on the front porch on the saddlebag of my Youngest Sons Motorcycle. ( who passed away in 2019 ). I hardly ever go out the front door, I always go in/out through the basement/garage door. But now I remember Amazon Prime had left a very light padded envelope with some transistors in it on the porch that the wind had blown over beside the Motorcycle. Apparently I laid my phone on the saddlebag before leaning over it to get the envelope. lol It's been 7 days and the phone still had 5% battery left, that's pretty good.Anyways good to have my phone back since I had many apps in there I use, plus all my contacts . Loosing a phone nowadays is almost as bad as loosing your wallet with drivers licence and credit cards and all.

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Wow, awesome you found it

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Thanks !! Yes, it's pretty awesome how much we use these devices nowadays, unit converters, calculator, engine analyzer, mail, contacts,video, camera, track Data, Social Media.... oh and phone...lol

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You ain�t kidding. I would add these for myself to your list: GPS, guitar tuner, playing guitar music, home automation control, banking and money transfers. 2-factor authentication, flashlight, scanner, transportation (parking app, Uber), weather, Drone control, news, movies, movie editing, playing music (Spotify), stocks, podcasts, learning a language, health and activity tracking, trading stocks, gaming, finding planets and stars in the sky (SkyView), decibel meter, hanging frames (with level), metronome� Yeah, my iPhone 12 Pro is the greatest computer I�ve ever owned, save for my very first computer, which got me into my career (tech) in the first place.

Ok, almost 5 weeks with no updates (let�s call it 4 due to the holiday...&#129325 ... Hopefully there�s still progress being made... Just figured I�d give it a bump - hoping for a happy new year launch!

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yes inquiring minds want to know 😂

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Yes, progress is being made every day..But I do need to explain a little about the time lapse. I had to deal with a health issue for a bit. I was hospitalized for a little while for a life threatening blood infection, I'm back on my feet and doing well now. I had to also get some legal advice on some changes to the UIDS, namely a change to UIDS V3.0. While fine tuning and testing UIDS V2.2 we discovered that if we changed a few things we could make it even better and designed version 3.0 Here is a short clip of UIDS V3.0, it is getting the shakedown now. Road test live video's to follow soon.I do expect this to be the production Version... Please be patient.... You Tube

Omg Porschetech3 I’m glad you’re back to better!!! i have a question on using your uids 3.0 and the LN Engineering skid plate will they work together or is better to go just uids thank you Mike

Skip, glad you are doing better. Health first. V3 looks pretty cool. When you are ready. Looking forward to hearing about the changes.

Great update and glad you're doing better! It sounded like really serious stuff. As stated, health first and if that's in place UIDS will come.

Skip, so glad you're doing better...

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Dang, that was a big scare. Glad you are better and got that issue resolved!

Skip is what they call a tough SOB. I’m glad he kicked the *** of his illness and is back to kicking all sorts of *** in his daily routines.

Glad to hear you�re better Skip! A friend of mine had a similar issue (sepsis in his case) that dogged him for nearly a year and almost killed him. The irony is that he most assuredly picked it up in the hospital while having another procedure😏. The UIDS V3.0 looks awesome... hope we can buy it soon 😃🙏

I thank you all for the pleasant comments on my health situation. I really had the Doctors worried there for a while, but with a large battalion of anti-biotics and some time, my white blood cells won the battle over the black blood cells and I'm back on my feet. Now,Back to the UIDS V3.0 !! To answer Mikes question, I'm sure the LN skid plate will fit/help protect the UIDS, but I think the drain hole is not in the right place. I will check this to confirm later. Also the skid plate will block some air flow over the fins of the UIDS, more data on the effect of this to come. I did manage to run over a 6 foot wide curb height "Island" night before last. It was raining hard , dark, and I was making a turn into a parking lot that had a stupid Island in the wrong place. Before I knew it I had jumped the whole damn thing !! lol .. I will give a full report (with pictures) in a few days, and we can talk about the damage ( or lack there of) on the UIDS...

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Great that you were able to overcome the Illness. By the way glad to report that yesterday I crossed the 7,000 driven miles in my car no tick. Glad to have you back. I�ll be interested to see what happened to the sump after the curve incident.

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Thanks .. With 7K miles I think it's safe to say your tick is fixed without needing a re-build !!! Get all the smiles you can out of it !!

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Got a Carrera S 3.8 airbox and a fab speed x pipe that hopefully will be installed now in December, vroom vroom.

Here is the curb I accidentally jumped completely over the other night.. It was put at the end of a fence on the service road after turning off the 4-lane going into the parking lot. Never should have been there. You can see where LOTs of people have jumped this thing. Picture of the UIDS . It took a very hard lick, just about hard enough to break the motor mounts or bell-housing, but just a few scrapes and gouges in the UIDS. This thing is solid as a rock.. There were three metal tubes where the set-screws are that got SMASHED also. They were installed for testing with the Manometer.. I'm pleased to announce that the UIDS V3.0 works just as we had thought it would, and has now passed ALL of our test !!! Here is a couple of videos of gnarly back-roads that have a lot of elevation changes and constant left-right turns, along with a lot of dirt and gravel that gets washed over them sometimes.. You Tube You Tube

The roads look fun and the UIDS looks to be doing what it's supposed to do. Glad to see it showed that parking island who's boss.

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looking good Skip! Glad it survived the big bad curb..what�s next for testing ? Track time?

Skip since you crash tested the pan I think my skid plate might be obsolete LOL Mike

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Yes, the UIDS v3.0 is not a thin cast aluminum sump plate, It is a thick solid billet aluminum machined with ribs and is as robust as an Aluminum Tank !! It is thicker than any part on the engine and I believe the motor mounts or bell housing will break before the UIDS will have any structural damage, just cosmetic superficial damage. That test was purely accidental, but now I'm glad it happened !! Yes , the UIDS is doing exactly as we had envisioned, and has met our goals. Here is a drawing that shows why the UIDS is superior to ANY sump with a center located pick-up tube. The green horizontal line is the normal oil fill when engine has been at rest for 12 hours. The red horizontal line is the nominal oil fill while engine is running.. The red triangular area is the oil fill when near 1G left hand turn. The red "X"s is where the pick-ups are for a stock sump, a deep sump, and the UIDS. You can see the stock location is already starting to suck air, the deep sump is just a little better but is so near the surface level of the oil that any increase in areation or foam will start to suck in air bubbles. The UIDS is deep in the available oil where the best ( less aerated) oil is.The deeper the pick-up, the better. It takes 10 seconds for synthetic oil to reside to un-aerate.. Yes, track testing on a really fast street car or race car will be done just to confirm what I already know !!! You Tube .

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It was cool 😎 that the sump plate survived. Almost indestructible. Does my car has 4 oxygen sensors or two. I believe it�s two. Anyway, we are going to put in the fab speed x pipe and what�s wondering if I need to install the mini cats to avoid CELS. Thanks.

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You have 4 O2 sensors, 2 pre cat and 2 post cat. You'll need �" extenders from FabSpeed to avoid O2 sensor faults.

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I�m getting it with the mini cats so that should be good. Thanks.

Skip, looks good. Let us know what you need from all of us to test it and get it on the market.

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Hi Glen, as far as I'm concerned personally the UIDS is ready to go!! George wants some more miles on it, but I have put many on the V2.2 and everything is just fine, and the v3.0 is even more robust.. And the track time would be nice just for confirmation. We need someone with a fast car ( 1G or more) that has already gotten proof that they are having oil pressure drops (recorded), and can install the UIDS and record the AFTER install and show the difference. Zbomb was set to do this, but they are now Snowed in with no Tracks open untill Spring, so would need to be someone in SoCal or Florida.. Also George and I had talked about O-ringing the whole UIDS so no Silicone sealer would be necessary, I'm all for that, right now its like every one elses sump, apply Silicone as needed...lol Speaking about the difference between the V2.2 and V3.0, The v2.2 is very robust and works well but has limitations. It gets much respect in that the internal ball valve was used in Acobatic Airplanes. In fine tuning the v2.2 can be done with limitations in the size/weight of the *****. The size is limited to some degree by the size of the port. The weight of the ***** can be changed by using different metals. Many different metals can be used, Titanium being the lightest, Carbon Steel being the middle ground, and Tungsten being the heaviest. I had also tested with various viscosity oil from 0w-40 to 5w-50 and temerature from 70F to 275F.. The viscosity has a big effect on the v2.2 when the oil flow is high due to the Bernoulli Principal. The Bernoulli Principal is what happens at NASCAR races at Talladega in the Draft, ( also what make wings lift and curve ***** curve)). On the v2.2 the Bernoulli Princiapl was pulling on the walls of the port and more so on the ball that was closed (now being used as a wall) than on the ball that was open. The open ball had some suction on it but not much. I proved all this by using a manometer with three ports in the bottom of the UIDS. One center and one left and right. This was making tuning difficult as one weight ball would work best at a certain engine speed(oil flow) and Temperature ( viscosity) but a different weight ball would be best for the opposite engine speed and temperature. While studying these problems associated to weight/viscosity/Bernoulli Principal, we came up with v3.0 !! The V3.0 design moves the weight/ball/roller outside the walls.The valve is actually part of the walls on both sides, so no matter which side is closed or open, they both see the same slight suction. This made tuning a piece of cake !! Also moving the rolling weight outside it is designed to be not effected by debris. It also can be made longer or shorter/thinner to change weight. The v3.0 also picked up 20% more flow ( not that it needed it). V3.0 is also even more robust. You Tube You guys are the market, so show George that you guys approve, and let him know that you are ready !!!!

This is immensely exciting. Been such a joy to watch this progress. Has there ever been a mention of a rough price target for this? I know I know... If you have to ask....

George I’m ready when you’re ready I believe in your product even more so after chip crash tested it Mike

Fantastic update, Skip. Thanks so much for sharing all this progress and visuals to help noobs like myself understand what's happening! It seems like you pretty much have a finished product on your hands as far as use on canyons/back roads and probably some noob track work. That said, I'm sure doing a track day or two will further validate what you created so folks like zbomb and other track dudes that push their car very hard will be able to turn quicker laps not having to worry about lubrication issues. Well done and look forward to putting our money where our mouth is and supporting this work!

Glad to hear your better Skip! what a great invention - can't wait for some track data but regardless it looks like the best option out there and it will do it's job

I think we need as much testing as possible. Skip and I aren't capable of the type of testing necessary to show that the UIDS works in the most extreme conditions. I think the best solution is a short run of UIDS, maybe 3-5 units, and get them in the hands of capable drivers. More cars/drivers=more testing in less time. If we have to wait until spring, so be it. Can't rush this.

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I agree with you. Get those prototypes in the best hands people that are really going to abuse their cars, Zbomb (Jason) comes to mind.

Sorry if it was listed before - what's the actual increase in oil capacity with this unit? In addition, when are we thinking these will start going out for production? -Matt

My new engine build is ready as well

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I believe skip (Porsche Tech 3) said a bit over half a quart. It�s not only the capacity it�s the additional cooling and better yet no significant oil pressure drops on high g circumstances. If you are planning to track your car, this is definitely most to have.

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give us some details. Who, how big, hp, etc, and definitely how much it cost.

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Yeah, I was interested to see what extra cooling and pickup ability you got with how much increased oil capacity. I'm very excited for this, but I'm an idiot and forgot about this thread and bought the 2qt deep sump kit from LN...so I'm wondering if I should just return the LN kit and just wait for this...I think they'll take it back -Matt

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honestly skip has spent most of his life dealing with our cars. The guy is an enciclopedia and if you ask me if you go take a 996 university level course skip is the author of the book and the teacher at the same time, if you can return that do it.

You won�t need any extra oil capacity with this. It�s not needed.

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Hey Skip. I think I have a good test car for you guys here in Socal if you're interested. My friend and I run his 4.0L M96 powered track car. It has full AIM data acquisition so we can get you the before and after data. Tire choices are Nitto NT01s or Pirelli DHs. It's well prepped and light (CF doors, roof, hood, engine lid, lexan windows). It's finally getting cool enough here to run some fast laps. We also have .1 and .2 aerokit cars we could test on but no full data acquisition. Driver credentials wise, I've been a DE instructor for over 15 years and hold a NASA comp license. I'd be happy to pay for the sump up front to test it. Let me know.

That car looks sick and remarkably similar to what my car will look like come spring. With that performance and the data setup, I think it’s a perfect candidate test car.

Skip and George. I'll help in any way but being in Chicago the track window won't open until April. If you organize some track time at Barber, I'll rent a Uhaul trailer and tow it to AL! If not, count me in for any help you may need in the spring. I bet you will have cooperation from many folks in the warm states.

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This question has been asked many times before and I have purposely dodged it due to not knowing if we were to hit our target goal. At the onset George and I set out to design an Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump that would stop the oil pressure drops that are occurring in M96 and M97 engines on turns ( sometimes even at much lower G's than 1 G) in an effort make it more durable/long lasting. The goals were to stop the pressure drops, make it easy to install, do it in an Elegant way, keep the cost below $3k . We have accomplished ALL of our goals !!! It was a surprise test. Sometimes those are the most productive... Thanks Pete.. Thanks Tbred, yes some track data will come at some point for sure.. Hi Matt, the nominal capacity is increased by about .6qts, but the available oil on turns is increased by about 6.5 qts.. George is in charge of the production, but when he gets rolling, he can turn and burn.. Good deal !! Yes, interested, I'll PM you about the details . Glen, I'll check my local PCA schedule for Barber, we normally do 4 DE's a year so surely there is one before April !!!

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No PCA Event any time soon at Barber, but Just Track it has the Barber track rented for an event on Jan 15-16 , have you ever done an event with them? I'll check with George to see if he will have a batch of UIDS ready by then..

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That seems unlikely, I think I'll need more time than that. This time around I'm building production tooling. The methods I use for prototyping are much different than production. I'll try to keep everyone updated. Follow my instagram if you want more frequent updates. I'll post in my stories. @not_a_real_911

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Was down at Barber back in 2017 driving in the school. Love the track. Would love to drive it in my car sometime over the next couple of years during a PCA DE. On my list is to get a Featherlite one of these days so I can visit all the iconic tracks.

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George keep us posted on this thread if you can as well. Don't have an Instagram nor Facebook account. The less social media the better.

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Yes these roads are a blast !! We have a small 6-8 car Porsche Hooligan Gang that gets together about every month or two and meets at Cracker Barrel on a Sunday at 7:30am (before the Church group gets on the roads) and have 2 hour fun-run through the back-roads of North Jefferson and Blount County's. Everyone we take on these roads, even if they are track rats, find them great fun and quite challenging.and are exhausted after about 2 hours. I have an advantage due to growing up riding motorcycles , dragging the pegs, on all these roads and know them better than all but one of the gang..

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Hi Geoff - it would be great if the oil pressure instability thread HERE could be revived with some fresh data from that car. Can you check if the owner is willing to share logs that have been acquired to date and post them up for review.

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Will do. I'll post the info in the thread after our next track day.

I track my 997.1S (M97) on Michelin Cup 2's with the Mantis Racing sump and Motul 8100 Xmax 0W40 oil at MSR Houston (track). With the 3rd radiator and the aforementioned mods, even in 90+ degree ambient temps, the oil temp needle sometimes goes north of 250F, but never up to 275F, and comes back down below 250F if I back off a little for 1/2 a lap. I run the car with the oil level on three bars up from empty. With the Mantis sump, it takes about 8.25 quarts of oil with a filter change. If I fill it to the the full mark the AOS will eat a little oil and it will smoke quite badly on the next startup after a track session. Oil pressure seems to be ok, although until I read this thread, I had not paid much attention to it. It is not something I look at while trying to extract every bit of time on a lap that I can, but will certainly pay attention to it now. I filled up and submitted the sign up sheet. Looking forward to seeing the positive results of the track testing!

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Yea, It's hard to watch oil pressure while driving aggressively.. You need a camera to record/watch the gauge for you, or a data acquisition system. The factory AOS is inadequate in many ways, the UAOS is superior in very way and with the hm/XTTD you can even run the oil level above full for Track.. Thanks for getting on the list, they will be released soon. Track testing is just for confirmation ( simulator shows capable of over 2G) .

Finalizing a few things for the production . The UIDS will be filly o-ringed so that NO silicone will be necessary. IF you are like me and don't mind applying silicone to new clean parts, but despise having to scrape off old silicone and the time it takes to get all of it off and clean, you will appreciate the extra effort we are taking to o-ring the UIDS. The bottom covers will be o-ringed as well as the sump to case flange. This will make removal and reinstall a no mess and effortless procedure. Please be Patient..

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Thinking of every detail.

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Tom, yes, this detail was discussed a long long time ago, but was put down lower on the priority list in the "easy to install and Elegant categories" of ideas. Since we have met all of our goals, it is time to bring up the other little details to the top and finalize for production.

Skip, ​​With the new version, and possibly new dimensions, has anything changed with being able to run more oil for cooling. Haven't caught up with Charles to see how close he is to an oil cooling solution. Extra oil may be helpful depending on Charles' timeline. If Charles is close to a solution, then extra oil doesn't matter. What are your thoughts?

Loving the O Ring oil seal. RTV is the bane of my existence.

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Glen, yes, we have adjusted the dimensions to add 1/4" (.250) to the UIDS and adding .5qts capacity for a total of 1.1qts . If used with UAOS with Track Drain can have a 11.5qt total capacity for oil cooling. It will still be 3/8" (.375) more ground clearance then a 2qt deep spacer with stock sump plate, and will not need a skid plate... But obviously the main goal of the UIDS was to stop oil pressure drops in aggressive g-Forces, and not cooling/capacity, we just added them because we could and no reason not to..

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Yes,the o-rings will make it so easy to remove and install the sump that many will get in the habit of removing for inspection at every oil change..

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Skip, the O-Ring is great. Sometimes that dang loctite is dang near impossible to get it out of the tube. Will you be selling additional o-rings?

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Thanks for the clarification. Just trying to get my ducks lined up.

Love the o ring, great idea.

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Yes O-rings will be available !!! Of course you could still use silicone if you prefer it to o-rings ...lol

I'm still on the list, but even more excited. I'll probably throw my skid plate on anyway since I don't want to take any chance on this beautiful piece of machinery.

I think there will be at least a few skid plates for sale when these start being installed...😉

The ring groove is a must. Thank you for including it. Have you considered a port for oil temp probe?

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Yes, we had discussed the oil temp port quite a while back and had put it in a lower priority column. Yes now would be the time to include it and would not be much trouble at all to put a 1/4"NPT thread and plug in the side. I will remind George, Thank You !!

Waiting for when this hits the market. looks to be a great product

This may be a dumb question, but why is it required to have silicone on the Sump plate, when LN supplies a gasket for one half of the install? Why not gaskets on both sides

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I can't speak for LN, I can just say why we chose the o-rings, and give a few thoughts in general on sealing techniques. We chose the o-ring even though it is the most expensive technique, it seals well, it is quick and easy, less messy, and doesn't cause any warpage of the precision flat mating surfaces. Coated metal embossed shim gaskets are more expensive than rubber or paper gaskets, and less likely to "crush" during torquing or cause warpage of the flat surface. Rubber or paper gaskets work well for thicker surfaces and for general sealing, but can crush if over tightened or if on a thin surface, or if the gasket is too thick. Silicone sealer seals very well in just about every instance, is inexpensive,but is time consuming and messy.. I'm sure LN had a reason for not using two gaskets, probably due to a possible "crush" effect.

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Could it be tapped metric? I put a VDO gauge package in the e30 using metric sending units. I want to say M12 x 1.5 but I can check. NPT on a metric car makes me cringe.

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Yep, no problem. Can make it m12x1.5 , m14x1.5 or 1/4NPT. Need a consensus on which would be more common/useful. ps: I'm not against Americanizing it .lol

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Skip, maybe since I'm just a few hours north i will come down and join you guys one time...

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Awesome, we love taking newcomers on the adventure..I'll PM you for the next one.. Warning : keep your car on ready, there is usually short notice, 3-4 days max, it's kinda like a "flash mob" type of thing. Tom Flemming ( ex Local PCA DE Director and ex Moto GP racer) usually sends out the group message when he gets the itch..lol

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she stays on the ready sir�

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Added a 12x1.5 boss to the side

Nice!

We're also thinking about adding a plastic bumper to the back center of the UIDS. Depending on how low your car is, it may prevent some scuffs from steep driveways or trailer ramps, Probably not much use on curbs lol.

UHMW would work great as a skid pad, they work great on off road equipment.

Maybe use titanium like F1 cars so I can get sparks to blind the idiots who think they can Hang on my Azz LOL Mike

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Nice!

I know I am late to the party, but add me to the list as I definitely want one of these on my M96.03!! Amazing amount of R&D, work and testing gone into this. I AM SOLD!!!!

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You could consider using these titanium aerodynamic skid plates for Vesus ( https://www.verus-engineering.com/sh...egory=12#attr= ) There is also their carbon fiber ones ( https://www.verus-engineering.com/sh...egory=12#attr= )

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Thank you !!! George and I have hundreds of hours into this since we set our goals well over a year ago. We worked quietly for a long time. Here is a video from a soon-to-be customer who needs the help of the UIDS to control his oil pressure drops. He just sent me the video yesterday , this thing has some very severe oil pressure drops.. You Tube

Wow you can see that oil pressure gauge arrow sway from side to side! Is the car running a stock sump/baffle or some sort of an upgraded solution? Looking forward to seeing the after with UIDS.

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Says at beginning LN 2 qt deep sump. Would like to see only UIDS on this same car same track. If all continues positive, will be a game changer for many.

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I'm not the least bit concerned about what Track the UIDS is used on, or how sticky the tires are. The UIDS can handle the baddest Tracks on the planet. The simulator shows that the UIDS can handle G-Forces well over 2G, if can actually handle the car/engine being completely on it's side and still maintain oil pressure.

Hope I never need to test it on its side. Nevertheless, that's very reassuring! 😊

Skip - do you think you will be shipping these in time for a spring install? Trying to figure out the timing for the track prep for next season. I promise to be an ambassador for this, just as I have been for the UAOS.

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Yes, I expect a release of the UIDS by Spring. We have to line up some sublet manufactures for some small things like custom o-rings and the screens so we don't have to make them by hand. And thanks for being an Ambassador for the UAOS, you have helped many people try it and realize the superior performance and increasing the reliability of the M96, along with easier and lower cost maintenance. So hold on to your sump $$$$ and don't spend it, or if you need me to hold on to it for you, I can !! Oh and if you don't already have a UOA log for your engine, I suggest you start one. I want before and after UOA's for engines equipped with UIDS for the record.

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Thanks Skip. I have UOAs starting from when I got the car five years ago. Now to decide if I take off my LN 2 QT sump and skid plate sell it now while it is still worth something...

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give $50 for it. Let me know

The 2qt sump will retain value. Remember, many on this board don't believe any of the facts they read. Ask F6I, Charles, hartech etc. Super excited.

@ Porschetech3 - Looking forward to the US spring

Excited as well! Let us know when we can order.

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The least you could do is throw in a few slabs of ribs and a brisket or two... jeeezzzz!

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Thanks guys !! I'm sure most 996 997 986 987 owners will have UOA logs on their engines, just though I would give a heads up for those who have not started one. I will have a questioner also to fill out for the record. ......and a bottle of good whisky !!!

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never a dull moment In This household. Our latest adventures. I�m picking up my fab speed x pipe tomorrow. A few for armagedeon A pour of blantons with st Arnold�s Christmas ale. Yesterday�s smoke pork butt. Voodoo ranger juicy hazy ipa at $3, a pour of makers 46 at $5 last night anc Brady got his *** Kicked Monday night football 🏈 and gumbo.

3/98 911 Coupe - And why in the wide, wide world of sports does your post not have anything approaching content dealing with the UIDS?

Really just go to the food network and create a kitchen on wheels podcast or at least cook something in your 911 engine compartment

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just thought I follow along his last comment. Anyway I think this thread is awesome and I love all the research and science, testing behind it. I have been modifying cars since I was 14 with my dune buggy, no performance artifact ever had this much research or transparency about it like skip stuff. And that�s 40 years If experience.

I do appreciate your culinary prowess but this thread is a bit important and I don’t want it diluted and as a former chef I get the excellent choice of your food and pairings of appropriate liquor every pic made me hungry and relish a great cigar and bourbon after

Just having a little fun doing figure 8"s in a big parking lot. I have hundreds of miles and hours and hours of recordings. Oil pressure is Rock Solid, stays above 5 bar anytime the engine is over 3500rpm. You Tube You Tube In other news, UIDS First Blood ::::the early production models are meeting the CNC Machine !!!!

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That's very impressive...

Glad I'm on the list for this. Ditching my current deep sump as soon as this comes out

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Getting excited Skip.. Quick Question is did you ever get feedback/data from any track users or is that coming soon also?

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Thank you That's coming soon, I have at least 3 very capable cars lined up as soon as we can get some UIDS off the CNC Machine ect. 2 996's in SoCal and a Boxster S in Florida are preparing for the UIDS. These cars are very capable with very experienced drivers that are having oil pressure drops on the Track. It will show what the UIDS can do , but I already know, no 911 can put more G than the UIDS can handle, it loves G-Force.. Right now there is still only one UIDS and Sally has it. George says Sally can hold on to it, he will make some more..I'm good with that ..

You should get a nickname for uids maybe G-Force sump or G-Pan Can lol in lieu of a marketing fee I’ll take a deep discount on one ☝️ 🤣🤣🤣🤪

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wow that parking lot ride made me nervous, too many things to crash into.

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skip has been doing that for years, he has the experience and we know he knows the car.

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You need to try harder,G-Force Sump or G-Pan Can just won't do...lol It was the biggest one I could find that was empty, It'sgetting harder to find good parking lots these days !!! lol Thanks for the compliment. I was good friends with the Porsche Sport Driving School in Bama, and all the workers and Instructors.( I was in charge of fixing all the problems on the 100 car Fleet ie. they were all still under Warranty) . I can honestly say the Instructors were all WAY better than me at Driving...

BTW there will be two versions of the UIDS, one for 996/997.1 and one for 986/987.1 This was decided many months ago, but hasn't been discussed much or any. . In the UIDS , George and I have designed the Dual Tunnel Ports to be biased to the braking side of the fore/aft center. Since the engine is mounted backwards in the Boxster/Cayman, and since braking G-Force is much much higher than acceleration G-Force, the Boxster/Cayman Sump is mounted reversed, the Dual Tunnel Ports are reversed biased for those engines. All present sumps for the M96, the stock, FVD, LN, Mantis, Hartech, ect all have the pick-up centrally mounted which is best performance when not moving. The UIDS performance increases as G-Force increases. All single pick-up sumps should be at least biased to the braking side, Hartech has mentioned this being a reason they use a Accusump for track cars,. Of cource if the single central pick-up were braking side biased, they would have to make Two designs, one for 911 and one for Boxster/Cayman.. No Design advantage left out of the UIDS whether it costs more to do or not, we wanted the Best Sump available.

Thanks for all of the work on this. look forward to being able to order.

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Yes!!!! With this being said do I need to change my waitlist order? I�ll likely get on the track the second it arrives. I have 200 miles on my 986 since the massive smoke show and things are looking and feeling good. I hope to have new blow by numbers once I buy the right drill bits. Considering a dyno as well to see if there is any major deviations from a few years ago when I bought it. Shawn

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Thank you See if you can edit your waitlist order, if not just make a new one so we can see how many Boxster/Cayman orders. Right now the Boxster/Cayman is only about 10%.....I'm sure the percentage will be a lot more.

Just joining this thread now, and read a lot of it, but couldn't parse it all. Will this sump work with a 997.1 C2S 3.8 ?

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Yes the sump will work on the M97, it is same architecture as M96

Guys, I'm really dumb. Can anyone explain to me why I need this? I've tracked my 996 numerous times at extremely high speeds / g-forces without any issue. Who here has had issue? Can someone explain to me in layman's terms how my 996 C4S would benefit from this upgrade?

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Sure, I'll answer, but whats your set-up now and I will compare and contrast. How long have you been DEing the car? What group do you run your DE with? PCA? What run group are you in?

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If you have ever recorded/tracked your oil pressure during track events - not spot checked it, but actually recorded it throughout the length of the event with an app, then you might find that it drops down to a lower pressure suddenly, regardless of RPMs or oil temps. Often after high speed braking and/or long sweeping turns. If that happens, you�re sucking air. If not, consider yourself good and you don�t have the issue. A lot of people aren�t looking at their dash gauge and that makes sense because they should be looking out the windshield, preferably where they are going and even more preferably, where they want to go.

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I club raced with POC and PCA for 12 years at Cal Speedway, Buttonwillow (numerous directions and configurations), Laguna Seca, Willow Springs, Utah/Miller, and Chuckwalla (also in different directions), with an 02 996 with just the x51 pan. Must have been lucky?

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2QT pan and Motorsports Aos?

Regular capacity pan, and original AOS. Shucks, for most of the years (8 or so) I ran Mobil 0w-40.

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You were one lucky dude...

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@garrett376 from the way back history times in this thread 996 on track - watch that oil pressure! So, the sending unit fixed your issue ? you never updated the thread I remember your car for sale, cool, clean build.

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I don't want or mean to derail the thread, I was just interested in GC's thoughts, and let others know that some M96s work fine. I had a lucky data point M96 engine, I guess. If I was still racing that car, I'd likely order this UIDS to be on the safe side, and support these smart inventors!

Jason, thanks for digging up the old thread. Brings back memories of what we wrestled with back in the day when we were all flying blind. Garret, after reading the thread I am completely in awe that you hadn't experienced any problems during DE and especially during club racing with running the Oem aos, no deep sump and 2 Qts low in oil. The thread is a screaming endorsement for the UIDS. I put in 14 years of DE with my 2002 996 starting in 2004. In 2006 my aos failed and by that time, the standard was to use the Motorsports Aos. So I did. About the same time, my Porsche Indy shop (Midwest Eurosport) which actively supported DE and PCA Club racing, was looking for solutions to oil starvation and oil pressure instability for the 996 and were in contact with the Grand Am series Porsche 996 teams to understand how they solved for the issues since they ran our engines, not the mezger. It was at that time that my shop fabricated a 2qt Deep sump using the X51 baffle for me and other guys running 996s way before they were commercially available thru today's suppliers. This certainly helped to mitigate the oil starvation and oil pressure instability enough to keep my engine running strong. While I never ran analytics to measure and map my oil pressure rev by rev, I new that my oil pressure was moving around with a quick glance from time to time at the gauge. In particular, the carousel at Road America which I could sneak a glance. I am looking to go back out on the track after a 4 year break. But not until I can make sure that the oil pressure instability and oil starvation is solved completely. Jason's work was instrumental in quantifying the issues, and Skip and George's work helped to design and manufacture the solution. These engines are a he'll of a lot more durable than the fear mongering may suggest if you properly service your engine and perform the proper preventative medicine . However, these issues are real and do occur. It's good to have a viable solution that will once and for all address the issues that we have struggled with over the past 20 years.

I would not say that "some m96 m97 engines were fine", I would say that the owners have not actually recorded the oil pressure when the G-Force is really high ,or they or their car is not capable or driven to a high enough G-Force to show the issue. This issue has been going on since the m96 m97 engines were built. (20 years) What we do know is some casr can live a long time even with oil pressure drops that are severe ( See Jason's great thread " oil pressure stability"). His car has survived even though the oil pressure drops are real and recorded. But we know that drops in oil pressure or big gulps of air are NOT good..Lose of oil pressure and air in the oil system can only cause problems and heat. The good lubrication is essential to a long life and cooler engine. With the Integrated Dry Sump being designed so short fore and aft, and so wide left and right, no amount of baffling will solve the issue. Baffleing ,no matter how well it is designed ,can only do so much and what it actually does is delay or block movement of the oil .Neither of which is the perfect solution. and can be detrimental at times or be beneficial for a period of time only (seconds) ...What's needed is a radical design change. The UIDS --Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump with it's Twin Tunnel Ports IS that radical design change .. George and I have worked on this design since October 2020....It's been Alfa and Beta tested and will soon be available to anyone...Please be Patent..

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Mine is all stock as well, and I just pushed it extremely hard at Autoclub Speedway (a big high speed oval). I'm down to buy this as a preventative measure, but I was really hoping for a succinct reason. My crazy opinion, if tracking these cars at high G's was a risk, it'd be talked about as much as the IMS. Does anyone know how many 996's on track have completely original engines & AOS's? I'd bet 99%+.

Here is my screaming endorcement as this was my engine at watkins. I would deff get the uids but i fixed my problem with a mezger. More details in my "another one bites the dust" thread. You Tube

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Wish I had stats on this but don't. Just first hand experience being on the track for 14 years with the PCA as a driver and driving instructor, providing soft data on what everybody was doing and issues they are experiencing. First of all, very few 996 owners track their car. If they do, it's only for a couple of outings then they are done. A very small % continue on and become diehard DE guys and a smaller number of these guys become club racers. As you can see, it's a very small subset of overall ownership. Second, everyone and I mean everyone is slow when they first start tracking their car. Driving around town and on the highway does nothing to improve your driving skills and track times. Seat time on the track is the only way to get faster. However, everyone will progress in mastering the skills and speed at a different pace. What this means is that the faster you are, the more G's you will experience, the more G's, the more risk of oil starvation and oil pressure instability; and therefore, the more you need to do to your engine to mitigate this risk. Sure it costs money, but I would rather incur the cost of installing preventative tools like the UAOS with drainback and a UIDS to mitigate the risk than have to pay 35k for an engine rebuild. Same can be said with the IMSB. The UIDS mitigates the risk of oil starvation and oil pressure instability by making sure that there is an ample supply of oil sitting under your pick-up tube at all times, eliminating the risk of no oil being there and the resulting consequences of oil starvation, oil pressure drops, air intake and failure. My engine is in great shape today because I used every preventative tool available to me at the time to prolong engine life. Motorsports AOS, 2qt Deep sump, IMS Retro, and constant oil changes. I am now moving to the next phase of replacing parts with better designed parts so I can get back out on the track, as well as I want to make sure that these parts can be used with an engine rebuild so it's not wasted money. Yes, someday in the next few years I will have my engine rebuilt. But I want to do everything I can to control when. My next steps. 1. I will be using the UAOS with drainback instead of the Porsche Motorsports AOS so I can run even more oil without the fear of the AOS failing and facilitating engine failure. 2. Use the UIDS instead of the X51 baffled pan to solve for oil starvation and oil pressure instability. 3. Use the LN Oil Cooling system that is in development to provide more oil cooling. Depending on its ability to cool the oil will determine if I run a sump extension or not for more oil volume and therefor more oil cooling. It will also determine if I need to add a 3rd radiator. Life is a decision tree based on your objectives and variables around you. When possible, prevent a catastrophe.

Quotes source post: 17886978

I personally don't know anybody who has been around the M96 for some time who has not talked about oil starvation in high G-force situations. This problem has been going on for two decades. The 10 year old thread Zbomb posted that Garrett started 10 years ago is just one example. This forum is full of threads like that one. Just do a little search and you can find all the conversation you want on the topic, but very few conclusions. From your comments I assume you are fairly new to the 996 platform. I highly doubt there are any 996 on the track with the original AOS on the car unless they were Garage Queens who just got out of the garage. The UIDS is the best Sump available and has all the advantages of a Dry Sump, without the disadvantages of the Dry Sump. This is what Porsche used to develop the replacement of the M96/M97 IDS in 2009 , Not only did they redesign the IDS and removed the IMS, but they redesigned the entire engine...(Yes it still has the IDS.) You Tube

I would add that not only does this topic take up a lot of RL thread space, it's also the most complex topic for understanding and solving. Unfortunately, most will glaze over the topic after the first few lines of a thread, and move onto aero threads or interior picture threads. Nothing wrong with that, but unless you understand the 996 engine, and ways to keep it successfully running, you will have the prettiest paperweight sitting in your driveway.

I would like to add this is not exclusive to the M96/M97. Oil starvation at high G loads is real for all wet sump engines. Most people won't ever experience it as they aren't driving hard enough. I trashed my VW engine over the summer because of this issue, although it took me 80 track days and moving to R-comp tires to get to the point that I was loading the G's long enough. My new VW engine is using a trap door oil pan and a windage tray to attempt to mitigate oil starvation around corners and I may add an accusump too. Track focused cars like the Shelby Gt350R have this problem - I was going to buy a GT350R until the oil pressure threads on their forums convinced me to buy another 996 Turbo! BMW used a two-pickup oil pump in the S54 engines similar in concept to the UIDS to mitigate this issue.

Quotes source post: 17886978

I find on high speed tracks with more sweepers the M96 is more or less fine although I've seen some pressure drops. It's shorter, tight tracks where you really start losing pressure and overwhelming the AOS. If the UAOS was readily available I would have swapped it a while back. Even with a brand new porsche AOS my car will smoke a bit after a full track day on a short, tight course where the oil sloshes around all day. I'll just splurge on a UIDS and UAOS together when it's available at this point.

Quotes source post: 17888153

Very true . That's exactly what I do with a topic I don't like or understand. I'll read a little bit of it and skip the rest. I usually don't comment on it. But everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it, but like my avitar says, everyone is a Mechanic, until the real Mechanic shows up.. It is a very complex topic, thats why Porsche got it wrong to begin with and it took 20 years to find a solution. Fortunately hindsight is 20/20 and gives us a better look at the problem than what Porsche had 20 years ago. They found improvements in so many places it made more since for them to design a new engine architect..

Quotes source posts: 17888189, 17888201

I'm glad there is quite a few people here who understand the complex Dynamics of this topic and can help others to understand.. !!!!! Yes, the UAOS and the UIDS will be a great combo.

Progress on the Twin Tunnel Port- UIDS never sleeps . With 8700 lines of CNC computer code taught to Machine to produce the Sump . 19 different tool changes takes place during the process. The UIDS on Sally is no longer the only one in existence !!! Please be patient .........

So is this plate a solid piece of aluminum and then the machine removes metal that is not needed?

Awesome Skip... Looks like it has the O ring groove as well... Really is a beautiful looking part.

Cant wait to get one to put this piece of jewelry on the new motor

Quotes source posts: 17894875, 17894882

Yes, it starts as a solid block of Billet Aluminum, Then uses the reduction manufacturing process to CNC away undesirable material to only leave what's desired. Yep, the o-ring grove is there, plus the threaded boss for the AIM oil temp Sensor (M10x1.0) if used, or will come plugged off. The capacity was increased another .5qts by using a sunken floor and recessing the Twin Tunnel Ports without loosing any ground clearance, and a few other little details went into the production model.George is a Master at the details !!!

I haven’t checked in for several weeks. Will the initial sump fit a 3.4 Cayman?

Quotes source post: 17894982

The production models for Boxster/Cayman will be rolled out at the same time as the 996/997.1 model. There is a different version for Boxster/Cayman since the dynamics/orientation of the engine is reversed.

Hi Skip. Where can we see the UIDS v3.? waiting list or know our spot # on it. Thanks

Quotes source post: 17896946

I don't know what you can see on the list, but I can see it, and looks like you are #46. I wouldn't worry about where you are on the list, when George gets the CNC Machine in high gear, it can turn out 7-8 sumps a day. I will be sending out a questionnaire shortly to everyone on the list to gather some data on the cars/engines that the UIDS will be installed on, hopefully to include a UOA. So if you haven't yet got a UOA, I suggest you get one now.

Do you have a preferred analysis company? i just got a Blackstone report done with the last oil change.

Quotes source post: 17899397

I prefer SpeedDiagnostix since there tests will see particles up to 10 micron, but others will do, I'm just glad you have some data..

Good stuff. I have 2 UOAs with SpeeDiagnostix ready to go for you with access to manometer and Durametric to provide any additional data that it can give. Definitely like the approach taken here. Not only are you designing a product that will address a major issue but it goes beyond just selling it. I think this database of info will be very helpful for you but for also other folks learning about the product.

Quotes source post: 17900254

Thanks Pete !! BTW I've had several people PM me thinking they had to do an oil change to do a UOA. It is not necessary to do an oil change to get a sample. Just warm up the oil, then shut down the engine and use one of those oil extractors to get a sample from the dip-stick tube. It wont go all the way to the bottom of the Sump because the tube is crimped on the lower end, but will down enough to get a sample.

Quotes source post: 17901843

FYI, LN sells them on their website.

Quotes source post: 17901843

skip at worst we are talking about a $30k engine. Honestly as a lubrication engineer I don�t understand you guys Afair with a used oil analysis. Yes I had many truck fleets with Cummins signature 600 engines, yes people those are 1 million dollar engines, yes on those I can understand used oil analysis but on our engines, one I think is overkill , two if you send them to speed diagnostics, I wouldn�t even send my lawn mower used oil analysis over there. A lot of people here don�t know what they are doing or who�s lab they are sending their samples to. Anyway if you want a true perspective next time you send a sample to wherever, ask them what equipment are they running the sample on, when it was manufactured and worst yet when was the last time it was calibrated,

Quotes source post: 17902152

I agree I wouldn't send my lawn mower used oil there for analysis either, or anyplace else. I am probably more frugal with my money than you are. ( a lot because I have a lot less of it...lol) But my Porsche engine, that's different. Too many M96/7 engines have debris in them/or are making debris. I understand SpeedDiagnostix can detect metal debris up to 10 microns, many can only detect up to 5 micron. If you know of a Lab that can detect metal debris larger than 10 micron on a UOA, please let us all know, or maybe you could do the community a favor and find us one?

Quotes source post: 17902186

I believe I have stated or mentioned this before on the community. I would use Analysts Inc here in stafford Texas. If anyone is going to do an analysis go ahead and get the Cadillac I believe it�s 21 elements and also get readings on TBN and TAN. This lab normally doesn�t do individuals but if you give them a call as I did I guess like 7 or 8 months ago they�ll work with you. Thanks

Quotes source post: 17902343

Would you mind posting your Analysis Inc. report? Also what is the cost and do they detect debris 10 micron or over? Definitely not going to turn this into an "oil thread".......

Here is another video sent to me by a future customer of the UIDS that need it's help, it shows the oil pressure drops very well !! .watch for the BIG drop at about the 5min mark... You Tube Here is a copy of a private message I was sent by a SPC Racer, they all know what the issue is that the UIDS will cure.... ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ .................................................................. ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ....................... Really appreciate your work. I have seen countless M96/M97 motors fail due to low oil pressure. Raced SPB for many years (where we ate 3 motors) and SPC since its inception. We tore down our SPC 987 motor (with all the usual oil starvation and cooling mods) after 3 seasons of racing and found that all the rod bearings were through the first layer of metal. we have 30+ racers who I think would really appreciate your product. I can tell you that a number of us have logged transient low pressures (no surprise) with combined Gsum in excess of 1.6G on DOT-R semi-slicks. First race is at VIR in late March. I have the class track record in both F and SPC and would LOVE to get one of these on my car before the race. We can provide you data logging [img]./Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums - Sump_files/smile.gif[/img] Regards and again, THANKS! ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ .......... ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........................................................................ ........... We are just waiting on the Custom o-rings and the Custom screens to be made. We had to sublet them out to other manufacturers..And the CNC machine is turning the Aluminum, more pictures to come. Please be patient......

Quotes source post: 17902656

Skip I�m on my 4th oil change, oil has looked good, filters have looked good, the feeling of the oil, smell of the oil has been good, so I haven�t seen the need to analyze the oil. The car barely consumes oil at all. Remember I have a ton of experience with oil and used oil, so I�m not spending the money and the time until I see a need. Anyway, I already got a year on my car and if it gets to the point where it needs an engine I have already two different solutions for that.

Quotes source post: 17904617

Ok, good for you. I take back what I said about me being more frugal with my money than you are...lol

I have a new recommendation for UOA testing at a LAB named OilVue. Test cost $35 and includes 21 Elements plus Base Number and Viscosity And PQ Index. The PQ Index is what I wanted to find after learning that it fills the void between the small iron particles that are indicated by the ICP (<5Micron)and RDE (<10micron) and what the oil filter can catch ( 25-30 micron) . ALS , a big kahuna in lab testing, recommended to me OilVue who is one of their subsidiaries, since most Labs don't offer the PQ Index or only offer it to Large Contract Only Companies. The PQ Index test takes the oil sample and runs it through a magnetic field and measures the change in the magnetic field to determine the amount of iron in the sample. This test indicates the overall amount of iron in the sample with indifference to particle size. The more iron, the higher the number. ( A PQI of over 25 would be a problem) It has been said here and is known that as wear on iron/steel parts increase the iron particles (ppm) increase and can be seen in the element test , but as the problem worsens and the particles get bigger and the iron ppm will actually start to drop, and will be falsely assumed to be less wear, but the PQ Index number would rise and indicate that the wear has gotten worse. ICP test can see iron up to 5 micron, RDE can see iron up to 10 micron, PQI can see all iron sizes, normal oil filters will let iron under 25-30 micron flow through, ( high flow and Racing oil filters will let everything pass through under 60 microns) the human eye can normally see iron 100 micron in average conditions. The most damaging iron particle is one that is small enough to fit in the clearance (<50 microns) but larger than the oil film (> 4 microns) Update :: UIDS V3.0 valve assembly getting CNC'd Twin Tunnel Port O-ring fitment.

Quotes source post: 17922600

please let us know the details of this lab, it would be good to cross reference it. This cost $35 is more in line with what it should be. To give you an idea, in 2011, I was pre purchasing 750 samples per month for $11 per analysis.

Quotes source post: 17922638

I understand OilVue to be 50 year old Lab Testing Company, testing 2M samples a year . I assume they are a subsidiary of ALS ( ALS is a big Kahuna of Lab testing and the ones who referred me to OilVue because their own Labs all over the US and who do NAPA and WIX Branded test kits, don't offer PQI to individuals, only large fleets). WIX branded test kits can be found on sale for $11.50 up tp $20 and the test is done by one of the ALS LABs , but they don't include shipping of the sample or testing PQI , that is a 20 dollar value right there. I have had tests done from SpeedDiagontix , Blackstone, and ALS (WIX) , over the years but have never been totally satisfied with the information obtained, namely the gap from the tiny particles the Lab can see, to the large particles the eye can see. The PQI fills this gap, and to me is the most important thing I want to see. OilVue offers this test at a reasonable cost, and I don't know of any others at this time that does. I trust SpeedDiagnostix for their analysis of the elements due to Lake being very knowledgeable on our engines and the metallurgy of the IMSB, cylinder alloy , ect. but no PQI I trust Blackstone for their accuracy in testing, but the commentary is not satisfying to me and I prefer to read my own report.But no PQI I trust ALS (WIX) to give accurate tests, but prefer to read my own report, and they don't do PQI for the WIX kits, and even though the initial cost is low, you have to pay to ship the sample. OilVue test is $35 with 21 elements and PQI and includes shipping the sample back and a mailer. I have 3 test kits on order should be arriving tomorrow. I want the PQI test to judge wear on all the parts that contain iron ie. IMSB , 5 timing chains , 8 timing gears, 3 oil pumps, 24 lifters, 24 valve springs, 4 camshafts, and last but not least, and definitely most costly and I think most important item, the crankshaft

@Porschetech3 if I have 5 years of analysis from Blackstone, when should I switch to OilVue to be a benefit to you? Should I do one analysis with Blackstone after I install the UIDS, and then OilVue, or just switch right to OilVue?

Quotes source post: 17924583

@Kris Murphy I think you should switch to OilVue, I did , and expect to see the same trend in iron ppm and a PQI of under 15 ..The PQI tester is calibrated daily at 0 and 750 ..Only takes seconds to calibrate. Our engines make a lot of iron debris from the 5 timing chains that are not hydrodynamic lubricated, just boundary lubricated. The chains don't actually "stretch", that is technically wrong .They wear at the pins and end plates to get longer, the metal doesn't stretch.

Quotes source post: 17924508

I just changed the oil like 200 miles ago. I will be testing my next oil change. With oilvue. $35 is a good investment.

Please add me to the list for the mid-engine version. Very interested!

Quotes source post: 17925280

@BillC3 No problem ,just fill out the form by clicking the link just below my signature. This will make sure you are notified of the release of the UIDS, and receive the small questioner that will be sent out soon. It also helps keep track of how many of which version.. Right now the Boxster/Cayman version is 25% of total. Click link below VVVVV to sign up for wait list....

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🤤 im ready

Skip, what are the blue things?

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They're perforated metal screens for the oil inlets. They're only blue because used a dye to be able to see my scribe marks.

Quotes source post: 17957758

Thanks George!

Dykem! A lost art indeed.

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So much love!!

Holy ****.

I am patiently waiting. My car is currently going in for paint, then coming out in March and we're doing coilovers. Do you think this will be done in the spring so I can have the car track ready for summer? -Matt

Oh man art indeed! I have an oil change creeping up and it would be awesome to get this in at the same time. It looks like you're running rubber or silicone gasket to seat this to the sump, eliminating the need for a sealing silicone? Also, forgot if this was mentioned, but will the stock or an X51 baffle be leveraged with this? Patiently awaiting the day ordering opens!

I am not sure if I want to order two, one to place on the car and the other hung in the Porsche garage. Skip, will there be a preferred fastening sequence?

Looks great, can’t wait to get it. Its almost like waiting for Christmas.

Quotes source posts: 17964405, 17964871, 17965541, 17966150

Most definitely will be done by Spring ...unless I don't wake up one morning... Yes, the O-ring is a Buna-N material that is impervious to oil. No more spending precious time scraping and cleaning off dried Silicone Sealer. No Baffles are needed when sitting still, and when moving the oil is free to move in the direction of G-force, and the Port placement and Control Valve will switch to where the OIL IS.. Yes, will look nice in a Dark Maple Wood mounting on the wall ..lol No Super special sequence, just start all bolts and run up snug to finger-tight, then turn 1/4 turns in a clock-wise rotation until the O-ring seats, then torque to 7.5 ft/lbs... It won't be near as long as it has been, thank y'all for being semi-patient

Skip, would the 996 pots be preferable 997 oil return tubes using UIDS?

Quotes source post: 17976716

@Tience Thanks for the question. The UIDS will use the 997 oil return tubes.

Man, Skip this looks so clean and robust that it should be given a Porsche specific part number. Thanks for doing this. I wouldn�t even consider tracking my car before, but this will likely get me in the game at some point. This has the same or similar external profile as the stock plate, right? Meaning same ground clearance? Being quite low, I never really saw a deep sump oil pan as a viable option for my car on the street.

Excellent work! Godspeed!

Quotes source posts: 17977068, 17977090

Yes, the Twin Tunnel Port / UIDS will stabilize the oil pressure during high G-Force corners and greatly improve durability.; The Stock sump plate is .600in thick, the UIDS is 1.200in thick, the 2qt deep sumps are 1.600in thick ...So the UIDS has .400in more ground clearance than a 2qt deep sump. Thanks man !!

Quotes source post: 17980399

FWIW - my car is pretty low, i do street-drive it to track events and with the 2QT deep sump and skid plate have only scraped the skid plate on one very very terrible hotel parking lot entrance... without the skid plate it would not have scraped. so i would have zero issues with running this UIDS without a skid plate. of course YMMV if you're encountering speed bumps at speed.

I'm planning for my car to be.... stupid low Nice side effect of not having to drive it to the track anymore is, when I drive on the road I will get to be very picky. I love how 996's get to be stance nation AND track ready all at the same time.

I am looking forward very, very much to having one of these in my hands and on my car!!!!

All testing is done on the UIDS even down to testing the o-rings for leak/seep!! I sent out the Email from the online Wait List yesterday with the Twin Tunnel Port-UIDS Questionnaire attached to everyone on the list, but some E-mails were not valid, some were " undelivered by Mailer Demon", some may have went to your Spam. So if you were on the list and do not see an E-mail, check your Spam folder and if not there E-mail me at [email removed] and I'll send it to you. The Wait List has been turned off, so it won't be accepting any more responses. The production of the UIDS is underway and a little more patience is requested. I realize everyone won't all the info/data requested, just fill out what you can. The cost will be $3k for Rennlisters during the Introductory Period .. The UIDS has come a long way since inception in OCT 2020 to now.....

Can't wait! Great work Skip!

Wonderful news. Do you have to be on the wait list / pre order list to get one?

Is any of the test data available Skip ? The thing is a piece of automotive art.

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Skip i'm sure this has been talked about but i can't remember. Will this add oil capacity at all?

Quotes source post: 18009132

No, but since I have everyone on the lists contact/e-mail ect. it will be much easier to deal with them first as product comes available to ship. I suppose I could start a second list......

Quotes source post: 18009162

I could post the before and after videos of my car dropping oil pressure, and then not dropping oil pressure with the UIDS all on the same roads... And the test data where I removed the oil pump cover and tapped a port right at the oil pump gears to get the Absolute Head Pressure of the oil pump. ect.. But I think everyone will be more interested in the Data from Cayman Spec Racer that if I can get him one by April 20 will do there first race on it. Or Steven at Sebring that will post next month ( I already posted his video of oil pressure drops without UIDS).. and Geoff just got his baseline data last weekend on the track and will get the first two off the 911 production line. Remember, the UIDS just gets better the more G-force is put on it, you can't put too much G-Force on it.. BTW : part number for UIDS will be UIDS-911 and UIDS-B/C (Boxster/Cayman)...

Thanks Skip - your openness to share the data is commendable, I look forward to seeing it

Quotes source post: 18009167

Yes, the capacity for UIDS was increased by about 1qt , but is totally not necessary to maintain oil pressure , was only done to improve cooling/ delay heat soak... BTW, I have thought of a very simple way to add an oil cooler to the UIDS for track only cars ( or cars with no mufflers/by-passes ) ..But before I get into it, I want to talk to Charles at LN to see where they are with the oil cooler that mounts/replaces the factory oil cooler..

delete

Quotes source post: 18009397

It's easy when you know you got the best . I'll put the UIDS up against anybody's M96/7 sump....

Quotes source post: 18009403

Skip, it's looking great! Two questions. 1. You mentioned the UIDS oil capacity was increased by 1 quart. Does that mean that the UIDS is able to run an additional quart of oil above normal "stock" oil capacity? 2. Are you still going to offer an additional extension of 0.6 quarts in addition. I am certain you will nail all the data when you start track testing. One thing that comes to mind is that with a 2 QT deep sump, we get some cooling advantages with the extra oil for about 20 min or so on the track. Depending on the oil levels we can run with the UIDS, it would be good to know what to expect with the trajectory of the oil heating up versus a 2 Qt sump. In essence, do we exit the track at 20-25 min which is what I have historically done or can we stay on for a full 30 min or even run 2 sessions back to back. In addition, what do the numbers look like if we run 2 radiators vs. 3. Obviously, the addition of an oil cooler solves the extra 2 Qt of oil advantages. You get the idea. I know it's asking a lot, but I am thinking out loud with you. Between what LN is actively working on with oil cooling and your cooling ideas, we should be able to not only address cooling issues but solve the oil starvation and pressure issues once and for all. Nice work guys!

I'm running a center rad, and I'd love to see all that data broken down, or recommended, at the very least if possible

I don't think a 1Q change is going to make any difference. Reference Zbomb's thread, the oil temp changes +/- 20F during a single lap. On my VW which i rather a different car I would see oil temps vary between 250 and 320 and back again on a single lap.

Def makes a difference in warmup time.... but out on track, more fluid to dissipate heat, has to be better. ???♂

Skip, CONGRATULATIONS on getting this puppy across the line and home. I have learned a lot about these cars over the course of this tread. Great, great info. My time on the track is over, but if I was to still be going, I would be among the first trying to give you my cash. Best of luck going forward and I can't wait to see what is next up your sleeve. Hal

My plan isn't even to take it on the track all that often, but I want it more so that if the opportunity arises, I'm not feeling like I can't do it. I want to keep my options open -Matt

Quotes source post: 18010275

​​​​​​Prf, appreciate your thoughts. Don't want anyone to misunderstand what I asked Skip. He and George have built a gamechanging solution with the UIDS. Everybody that steps on a track should have one. Depending on the timing of release of the UIDS, it's oil capacity and the timing of the release of the LN Oil cooler and it's location on the car, will determine what, how and when I implement cooling enhancements. There is no doubt in my mind that the perfect set-up for all of us going forward will be the UIDS, UAOS with drainback, and LN oil cooler. Kudos to Skip and George! Add/Edit: As a side note on the oil cooler, the design and resting location of the oil cooler will determine if we will benefit from a 3rd radiator or if we can even use a 3rd radiator depending on the oil cooler location. Too early yet to know. Hence the questions I asked on oil capacity as a short-term cooling solution.

I wonder after installing Skip's and George's creation how many other pans, like mine, will become ashtrays to hold the remnants of Cohibas or Padrons.

Quotes source post: 18010285

It is. Obviously if you have enhanced water and oil cooling, the extra oil may not be as important. But keep in the back of your mind that the longer you are on the track, and the bigger the track where you are on the gas for longer, the more heat problems you have. Road America creates a lot of heat. It's 4 miles long with a lot of long straights on the gas. A smaller 2 mile long track like our local track Blackhawk is a walk in the park from a heat stand point. But... The longer you are on the track, the more the engine heats up and the more your oil temps will rise to the point that they will swamp your water cooling. Extra oil helps to slow the trajectory early on in the session, but works against you late in a 25-30 min session. What I found with my 996.2 was that if I exited the track after 25 min on a 2 mile long track, I could contain the risk of overheating running a 2Qt deep sump and 2 radiators. At Road America, I was getting very hot at 25 min so one or two laps less would keep temperatures under control. Don't know how much more time a 3rd radiator would have given me on the track, nor do I know what an oiler cooler will provide, but I am going to find out this year. But at 290 degrees, you can kiss your M96 engine good bye.

Water cooling and oil cooling are different genres from oil pressure drops, and deserve there own technical thread to spearhead a discussion into the most viable solution. I realize there is some bleed-over of the different physics/components of each, but to spear-head discussions they need to be separated as to not conflate/ confuse the best solutions. The target for the UIDS is/was to eliminate the oil pressure drops in turns, I think that is the biggest deficiency in the M96 engine and the reason I targeted this particularly. The UIDS does this inthe most efficient.compact, economical, easy to install way. CG996; your 996.2 oil fill is 8.75 qts. If you run at half gauge as you probably do, that's 8.25qts,add 2qts for deep sump you have been running 10.25qts.of oil. with the UIDS/UAOS W/drain back you can run 11.5 qts of oil which is 1.25 qts more than you have ever ran.( and that's without any extra spacers). You can certainly add longer bolts and extra spacers between UIDS ( and the adaptor tube ) to gain even more oil volume but at a cost of ground clearance). I would recommend NOT doing this as 11.5 qts of oil is plenty and as designed the UIDS will have more ground clearance than a 2 qt deep sump. I hope everyone isn't confused by all the math, but looking at things from a birds-eye view, most "dry sumps" only use 8 qts of oil. The most common "dry sump" tanks are 3 gal but only filled to 2 gal oil ( 8qts) and use 1 gal for air volume. so the UIDS/UAOS will have much more oil than most common "dry sumps" ...So if "temp" is the next issue to be improved, it needs to be a separate focus. I'll be glad to add my ideas on much better oil cooling in a separate thread. But may be unnecessary, depending on if LN oil cooler is going to be produced... I have my plate full and don't want to be building another invention at this time , but happy to share my thoughts..

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Thanks Skip. That's plenty of oil. Appreciate the detail.

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Happy to talk about the UIDS... As a side note :: the fins on the UIDS do add a lot of surface area to help with cooling of the oil, and were added as a side benefit of the UIDS. But I don't want it to take away from the main focus of the UIDS, which is to deliver oil to the oil pump under all driving conditions..Which is the biggest issue the M96 has. The engine will not survive if it doesn't get constant oil supply..

Skip what kinds of punishment do you think it can handle from street driving debris and potholes

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It�s pretty tough. I wouldn�t worry. I think someone ran over a curb with this during testing and it held up. It doesn�t appear to hang too low, so I don�t think that�s an issue either.

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cough, cough� Skip?

dup

Quotes source posts: 18011164, 18011254, 18011404

I promise I wasn't drinking !! But I ran completely over this curb/island and NOT barley rolling !! it was a jolting hit and you can see that only some gouges and scrapes on the UIDS. As a side benefit the production model has a small plastic sacrificial bumper mounted on the rear most center (UIDS-911 only)..

My Third Cousin Summer came by on her lunch break today.(she is a waitress at Chilie's) and asked me what I was doing. I told her I wanted to do a Photo Shoot with her as advertising for the UIDS if she would get a job at Hooters !!!! I will get some nice pictures done of the UIDS soon though.......

Made a new logo.....

During testing of the UIDS, at one point the exhaust catalytic converters were removed, the engine mounting plate, and the oil pump cover. The gears were inspected and the cover was drilled where the X is in the picture below. The hole was tapped and a fitting was installed with a small metal tube running up to beside the air cleaner. A precision guage was hooked to the end of the tube to read the Absolute Head Pressure at the inlet side of the pump to compare to the Vapor Pressure of Engine Oil. The Net Positive Suction Head Pressure Safety Margin was 14.6 PSIA which is very very good.

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I could definitely get some nice high quality shots done for you. Just need the subject in my hands

I sent out 97 E-mails with the UIDS Questionnaire, but only received a handful of Questionnaires back. I wanted to build 100 UIDS on the first run, but George was hesitant, so we decided to build 40 units on the first run and had sourced and priced the material for 40 units. But when we went to order the material it had already sold. We could only source enough material for 16 units and ordered the rest... Many people had stated they didn't get the E-mail and I sent it to them individually. I don't know what happened, it could be that people are not yet ready, or that the E-mails didn't go out. Yahoo has a limit at 100 E-mails at a time at 10mb, so I know it was under the 100 limit, but don't know about the mb. But anyway we can only build 16 units at this time, and most of them have already been allocated or payed for with just a few left. Please don't beet me up, and be patient. More will be built when material supply issue is resolved. The Warranty will be 2 years Unlimited Mileage on material and workmanship . No expressed or implied warranty, no warranty for labor. Warranty includes replacement of UIDS parts only. If you have returned the Questionnaire, you can place the order by sending $3k +$50 shipping to Paypal under [email removed] , specify UIDS-911 or UIDS-B/C, make sure your address is correct and current.

@Porschetech3 - sending you a PM!

The format the email questionnaire came over with was the problem with replies I think. but at any rate I think people are ready

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sending now

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Just paid via PayPal.. can you confirm for me Skip.. it's under Lifted Adventures as an FYI

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Yes confirmed, I got you..

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Great!! what do think the shipping ETA will be? just trying to make sure I'm in town..

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I asked this in a PM hah. Potentially around Easter. Could be before or after. By end of April seems like a good bet.

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Looking good, I see that Boxster/Cayman one in there!

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Yep, the top one is yours !! All 16 were done in UIDS-911 version, but George had 2 blank pieces of aluminum left from previous order, I told him to do UIDS-B/C out of them that were already allocated/payed for.. Just making valves now and screens, and waiting for the material supply issues to be resolved.

I'm in no rush here but this is very exciting. I'll wait patiently and will order one once all the backlog wears out. Thanks Skip! Great job.

Timing ends up working well given the parts I am replacing. Uaos next with oil cooling. I'll get the uids with the next round of production.

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I think I was one of those that didn't get an email. No worries, I'm in no rush...going to be summer before I could pull the trigger on one anyway.

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Yep like I told Pete, I expect to ship around Apr 10-15 or sooner. We are building the valves and screens now. The UIDS will include all new bolts, two 997 return tubes, 1 M10X1.0 black anodized plug, 1 M18 black anodized magnetic drain plug, o-rings...

Hey Skip. Let me know if you guys need help sourcing some material. I might be able to point you in the right direction. I'm the Director of Supply Chain for a large aerospace fastener and parts distributor.

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thanks Geoff, I'll let George know !! BTW your two units are in the picture above and the valves blocks are in this picture...

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No pick up tube extension like in other more common setups? If not that�s saying a lot about your system keeping oil where it needs to be.

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No pick-up tube extension. The UIDS comes with a specific flange connector that bolts to the engine block and the UIDS slips up onto it...see pic below.

I paid weeks ago can’t wait to get it installed looks great

Skip, I'll just wait, as I checked my emails ( I have to use a cup and string company ) and at this point, just let me know when it is ready and I'll just do the Paypal thing....... You Tube

The Twin Tunnel Port / UIDS is the only way to get "dry sump" performance in an elegant , compact , economical , easy-to-install way , and not having to resort to a remote tank, extensive hoses/lines, external pump, drives, expense , in a NON-OEM way, and the issues that can result on an M96/7 engine that is already space limited.

BTW : had the logo enhanced by a Pro.....

Should be an aero rear wing it’s faster lol

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The wing has more down-force for cornering, but the ducktail has a lower COD and more top speed...lol

BTW : it's probably self-explanatory, but the above post was made from my Rennlist Sponsor Account that I've had to set up to conform to the rules of Rennlist. Having more than just one item to offer (the UAOS) , and adding UIDS changes things from "paid member" to " site sponsor" to stay in compliance to the rules...

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Hopefully, you don�t go the way of Jake now� �

Rennlist needs to fix its rules for sponsors so they have more privileges to sell items than a regular paid member does. I wouldn�t blame Jake for leaving.

Jake didn�t leave because he couldn�t �sell his stuff� (he doesn�t sell stuff�)� He felt/feels as though he�s got to pay for the privilege of being personally attacked�(being called a fear monger etc. for giving us information and letting us make informed decisions�).

That�s a great reason as well.

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I�m not sure if that�s a tongue in cheek/sarcastic response, but given that he had spent many thousands ($3600/yr) over the years for the privilege it doesn�t surprise me.

Yeah, its a screwed up system… ”Here we give you the ability to offer free advice to our members, based on all of your experience, and accomplishments. The only catch is that you have to pay us to do this, else you can’t post the free information” I can’t believe I was dumb enough to pay this for a decade. I guess I looked at it like I was giving something back to the community, so I’d give away the free info, and pay to do so. When that really becomes a triple negative is when you get into arguments and have people hate you for just sharing things the way you see them. Then it is literally paying for punishment. For the 350.00 I was granted two “commercial posts” per month, and I never really used them. Every time I tried the trolls (who never bought anything from me and never will) would turn them down the wrong path, and what was positive would go negative. The moderation is marginal at best, so then you have a quadruple negative… What a pain in the ***.

Huh... FSI is leaving... who knew. @dporto you want to let the thread be about Skip and George's parts or are we devolving into another FSI whatever - just curious if I should keep checking back in the thread or not.

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Oops� not my intent. �Conversations� do that sometimes�Back on topic

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Yep, this is my last month paying to play here.

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Understood and appreciated. Rennlist isn�t immune from general internal based communication issues (trolls). So what do you think of the oil starvation solution developed here? I�ve got 2001 986 that is track prepared but I haven�t taken it on the track in years, because of the oil starvation concerns.

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I dont think u will get a comment either way from Jake on a product he doesnt make or has not tested. jake has also commented many times on the oil issues but keeps his solutions close to his vest. Skips invention will stand on its own merits.

I�m hardly ever sarcastic

My position on oil pressure issues and starvation have not changed. The right oil at the right temperature has proven effective to me. Internal changes to the oiling system are an added benefit. Though many didn�t support my position on temperature aggravating this issue in the beginning over time their �squiggly lines� ended up somewhat supporting my position. I keep oil cool, and increase the circulation rate through the engine. Oil volume isn�t always reflected in a single pressure reading, and isn�t everything. Reviewing internal components after low oil pressure readings, and how they fare teaches valuable lessons in this equation that electronic data will never reveal. These things have formed my position, not reading, or looking at graphs. My position may change as I learn more, since we never stop learning. Now that almost every engine we build has reached 400HP, we see that the necessity for alterations in running clearances are more of a necessity. I see this more as the performance of the R43 continues to increase, making 460HP last week, and all without increasing the stock rev limiter, or even needing 7K RPM. In some of these cases we see the oil pressure have less of an impact, since centrifugal force of my stroked and modified crankshaft force feeds the oil to the connecting rod bearings.. These engines also have more favorable crankcase pressures, which also impact the overall scope of the oil control equation. Skip offers solid products, I have faith in his abilities to continue to do so. You won�t see me support many initiatives outside of my own, but Skip rates my respect because he believes in simple approaches, and effectiveness through practical application development, and testing..

This is great news! Just like the IMS Solution, the UIDS looks like an effective and permanent fix for a known problem. I don�t track my 996 but I�m still interested. Is there data showing comparable oil pressures with and without the UIDS on a track that causes oil starvation? Sorry if I somehow missed it.

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Hey Skip, any more updates on shipping UIDS

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Skip, I am sure you have your hands full, but up date on approximate shipping dates would be great.

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Yes, I have gotten behind on my schedule and supply issues continue to set me back. It was over a month and a half getting an order of the UAOS 987/987 997 Black Annodized Aluminum Accumulators in so UAOS orders are behind. and my trained employee left for a full time job, so now I'm left training two more part time employees to help build UAOS Kits. The material supply has been a delay in the UIDS, but progress is being made as material parts come in. 800 hundred new bolts for the sumps, I ordered 80 997 oil return tubes, which the Porsche Dealer Special ordered...ect. George is building the valves as fast as he can, I'm at the mercy of George, and he is at the mercy of the supply chain. All the small delays add up and is totally frustrating for me as I'm sure it is for you also.I hate keep making shipping predictions based on my expectations only to be disappointed. ..

Hang in there Skip. Supply chain problems everywhere and they are getting worse with the China shutdown and Russian invasion.

I'm happy to take the blame. I wish you guys could appreciate what a huge project this is and the amount of work that's going into it. I refuse to cut any corners, every step of the way I'm making sure every process is documented, measurable and repeatable. Unfortunately this takes time. I can only dedicate so many hours a day to this project due to other customers I supply. UIDS are being assembled now and will be reaching customers soon. Thanks for your patience

George and skip genius doesn’t happen over night if there’s any backlash maybe they aren’t the right people for your product it was created because of a need and you guys answered the call thank you I can wait for uniqueness with purpose

Quotes source post: 18089294

Yes the need has been there since the m96 was designed, we all knew it and have seen the drops in oil pressure even on the street, and yes especially on the track. We have all seen the bearing wear and the failures and why the deep sumps of many brands have been created and used. Properly diagnosing the cause of the oil pressure drops was the first step, and a big one. Then to come up with a solution in the most robust, sophisticated,, yet simple method to achieve this was the next step.My 45 years as an Auto Troubleshooter along with my racing and designing experience gave me the wherewithal to dream up the Twin Tunnel Port-UIDS. And with Georges' CAM CAD work and precision machining our collaboration is now a reality.. Porsche even "semi-admitted" the M96 had a problem when they built a $1mill simulator rig for testing the sump on the MA1 engine that superseded the M96. I have done similar testing on the Twin Tunnel Port-UIDS , but with a less costly simulator, the accuracy of the test are no less valid... With the Twin Tunnel Port-UIDS the engine can maintain oil pressure completely on it's side, even a "dry sump Mezger" GT3 engine can't do this. No Race Track on the planet can cause the UIDS to loose oil pressure, and everyone knows loosing oil pressure even for a moment is not good for the bearings...

no worries Skip and George.. I just wanted to make sure I was home to receive it.. Don't want the porch pirates getting this piece!!!

It was almost the same thing with the UAOS, and I'll wait my turn.....and perhaps the oil cooling issue will be on somebody's radar...

Skip, this reminds me of the UAOS somewhat.... I'll just wait my turn.....meanwhile has anyone else besides Jake fabricated a better oil cooler?

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Absolutely don't want a Porch Pirate grabbing one although they would have no idea what to do with it or where to fence it... Yep, the "nay sayers" and "good enough crowd" gave me a problem for about a year with UAOS..I almost said F88k-it , It's not worth it, I'll keep my idea's to myself. I have a plan for a simple oil cooler that could be attached to UIDS with it's own circulation system that would not interfere with the oil pressure system, and could be turned ON and OFF as needed. But would need a Mini Muffler system designed because it would mount where the big factory mufflers mount. Charles at LN has an oil cooler that I think is near completion so that's good news and keep your eyes open for it, and I don't have time to be building another product right now, maybe in 6 months I can start another project..

Until I get out of the 986/996 platform you unfortunately have my money 😂 Shawn

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Thanks Shawn, the 986/996 987/997 are great platforms even though they have been the "underdogs" of the Porsche world for 2 decades. I have always been drawn to the underdogs for some reason. Living in Bama I've always pulled for Auburn over Alabama , even with Alabama's impressive statute ..Auburn has always been the underdog due to their simplistic Agricultural nature, but they have had their big achievements to Society, and even SuperStars in Sports/Athletics and National Championships and have beaten up on UA many times...lol It's probably due to the way I was raised. When I was 16 I took my Dad to a used car lot to co-sign for me to buy a Canary Yellow 1968 Barracuda "S" with a 340 Special engine. He refused to co-sign, and would only so-sign if I agreed to buy the 1970 West German made Mercury Capri 4 cyl , because it was 2 years newer, and cheaper on gas and insurance...Not to loose sight of my passion, within a few years I had transformed the 1970 Capri with lowered Koni suspension, full Aero Package, and a handbuilt Turbocharge system making a power-to-weight ratio of 5.8lbs/perHP to be the baddest car in the State. It would do 12 seconds flat in the 1/4 mile, and from 60mph kick, would drive away from a Trans-Am SD 455 without even downshifting. It was on par with the AC Shelby Cobra 427 in handling and performance. My Dad paid me to stop terrorizing the streets and local Law Enforcement and build a Race Car, after all it was his fault...lol

Yea, wrench all day and terrorize at night, but the fun part was not having to wash the sheer pleasure off your face....

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Yea, I remember one night in about 1979 I had just done some tricks to the little Capri and was testing them out hammering it in sharp curve when my headlights bounced off the reflective side of a Cop Car, I quickly shut it down, and he flipped on the blue lights even before I passed him. He let me of with a warning because he thought his radar gun was messed up. He said he clocked me at 90 then cleared it and shot again and it was 55, he said there is no way to take that curve at 90...lol

Skip, I share the struggle reality. I am involved in "one off's", prototypes , etc. Everything is difficult from material, anodizing, machining on and on. Let me know if there is any way I can assist. Hang in there, Skip delivers. And this is well worth waiting for. I'm saving my pennies for one too. Godspeed! Dave

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Thank you so much Dave, I think we have everything sourced now, but I'll keep you in mind. It's like taking a super long freight train across the Country, having to make sure you have all the cars located/lined-up then go hook-up to each one in the correct order before you start the locomotive slowly moving in the final direction.. Just need to add one more thing before closing up the box ( 997 return tubes) Serial # B/C 3002

Morning Porschetech3, Skip. Any chance you can confirm that I'm on your contact list for a UIDS for my 987.1 ? I did do your questionnaire but not remembering if there was any response on its receipt. Thanks.

The part looks fantastic thus far! Very excited to hear owner impressions when these things are out on the road. Maybe I missed it but is there a projected price for these things? You can PM me if need be.

Check the website: www.ultimateids.com all the info is there, as well as the ability to order�

Quotes source posts: 18100534, 18101002, 18101512

Hi Jessie, yes I got your questionnaire, Thank you !! Price for UIDS-911 or UIDS B/C is $3k...+ $50 shipping in usa.. Yep, but still working on the website...much more to come....

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thanks guys!

I may have missed it, but with the increased capacity does the digital level read out and oil dip stick still remain accurate?

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Yes, increasing the capacity by add more space to the "bottom" like what is done with UIDs or any deep sump does not effect the dipstick or dash accuracy. However, if you are using the UAOS with Extreme Track Drain on a 996.2 with an engine after 662 11796 and using the 1/2qt shorter 996.1 "54" dipstick, the dash and dipstick will be off by 1/2 qt. (trust dipstick)

Quotes source post: 18145780

ok I’m confused a little bit as I have the UAOS with track drain on a 996.2 and the motor is after the number above… not sure which dipstick I have though. Any way to correct the 1/2 qt off ? also any more/new updates on the UIDS being shipped.. Thanks Skip

Quotes source post: 18145886

So Justin, what happened was that Porsche realized one of the deficiencies of the Factory AOS in mid 2002 (overwhelming the AOS/Smoke bombs) and instead of correcting the AOS, they lowered the recommended oil fill from 9.3 qts to 8.75qts. (1/2qt) and installed a longer dipstick and revised the dash program. The dipsticks are identified by the "ears" on the later dipstick and none on the 996.1 dipstick. Also the part number is "54" on the 996.1 and "55" on the 996.2 later ones. ( picture below).. If you have the UAOS with high mileage/Extreme Track Duty Drain on the 996.2 with engine after 662 11796 it can handle the extra oil level of the 996.1 "54" dipstick. I'm not positive whether PIWIS will program the cluster back and forth between "new and old" dipsticks as it's been a decade and a half since I have done them, and PIWIS has changed a lot since then, and back then we were only going from 54 old to 55 new designs, with UAOS w/XTDD we can go back to "54" dipstick and higher oil level. The UIDS's are being shipped out as I get them from George. I have turned off new orders until I get caught up on the pre-orders. Old style dipstick 996.1 and 996.2 up to eng 662 11796 part #"54" new style dipstick 2002 996.2 FROM eng # 662 11796 part # "55"

Quotes source post: 18147118

so with an estimated 11.5 quarts if full and using track drain like I am where do you expect it show on the which dipstick vs digital?

Quotes source post: 18147149

OK, I'm not quite sure I understand your question exactly, but I'm assuming your combination of parts in this scenario are as follows. 996.2 with engine after 662 11796 2qt deep sump 996.1 "54" dipstick 996.2 with dash program after 662 11796 IF so, then with the 9.3qt dipstick and 2 qt sump, the oil fill will be 11.3 and will read full on the dipstick, at 11.5 qt will be slightly over full on the dipstick, the dash guage will read over-full. As a point of reference, Zbomb was running about 12.5 qts on his 996.2 w/XTDD and 996.1 "54" dipstick, showing over-full but the UAOS was handling it well driven very hard on the track .. Remember, it does have a warning devise on it..

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sorry to be confusing skip let try and clarify buy asking it in stages 996.2 with engine after 662 11796 standard oil capacity should be 9.5 If i remember correctly... using the UAOS with Track Drain you can run it full instead of .5 quart low so add .5 quart using the UIDS add 1 qt Total is 11 quarts? correct?

Quotes source post: 18147268

It's still confusing due to your baseline data is off and I don't know your end goal (ie, to know how much oil to show exactly full on your stick, or to know how much oil over-full you can get waway with to help mitigate oil starvation). The 996.2 with engine after 662 11796 standard oil capacity on oil filter change is 8.75qts. This will show full on the dipstick (55) and dash gauge ..It has been recomended by many many Track Rats (even Porsche) to run at 1/2qt "low" to keep from "Smoke Bombing"( that makes a factory sump down to 8.25qts). This is a major No No, in my book Yes the UIDS adds 1 qt extra capacity, and the UAOS w/XTDD "can be ran "overfilled"

Quotes source post: 18147321

basically i want to know the following what will be my oil capacity total with the UIDS? What do you estimate will be the oil change amount? 9.75? Which dipstick do recommend with the UIDS and the 996.2 motor after 662 11796 so i can read it correctly? and lastly what do you estimate the 996.2 motor after 662 11796 will show on the electronic oil check at the correct level? again skip sorry for the confusion answering work calls and emails while trying to explain things on a forum is probably not a good thing to do at the same time.

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I would recommend anyone with UAOS w/XTDD on a 996.2 after eng # 662 11796 to change to the 996.1 "54" dipstick. And use the dipstick for reference not the dash gauge. With the UIDS and "54" dipstick on any m96/01/02/03/04/05 the oil change capacity will be 10.3 Qts ( there is still about 2 addition qts oil in the engine that cannot be drained out), and it will read full on the dipstick. Also with UAOS w/XTDD you can run from 1/2qt to 1.5 qt "overfull" on the dipstick ( for Track Events depending on eng condition). Ignore the dash gauge as it will read overfull.

Quotes source post: 18147388

perfect � I will order the 54� now and will be waiting patiently for the 1st edition of the UIDS to ship..

Jason has a great picture of the oil amounts taped somewhere on his engine as a reminder. If he sees this, maybe he can post the picture. It's a good idea.

Quotes source post: 18147395

Smart move !! The "55" dipstick ( and lowered oil level) should have never been done. The engineers at Porsche should have their butts kicked.......lol

So that means those of us with 996.1 cars have the correct dipstick already, so we're good to go? Skip, can you rountinely "overfill" and does that cause any issue, or just for a track day and then go back down to the "prescirbed" max? Just curious if you got my PM -Matt

Quotes source post: 18147930

Hi Matt, yes, 996.1 cars have the "best" (part # 54) dipstick already, so they are good to go. With the UAOS w/XTDD you "can" overfill all the time and no issues, but, oil is also a consumable just like gas, and with the gas prices I usually just round off to $50 bucks gas at a time, just to make it simple/easy, and I keep my oil "full" all the time and only "over-full" when I know I going to Track it in high heat..( I also keep a watch on oil temp and pressure). I forgot to answer your PM I was dealing with an investigator over a robbery...lol sorry, I'll get to it..

So, on one hand, Jake recommends to run the oil halfway up the dipstick cold, not higher. But you're saying this is a bad idea on the track. Is it just the UAOS that makes it OK to run a higher oil level?

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Yes the uaos fixes the issue BUT WITH the drain back tube option.

Seems to me that the UAOS with track drainback is a no brainer for the track and for those that just street their car. You never have to worry about accidently overfilling your oil. The UAOS can handle it. The factory AOS and the Porsche Motorsports AOS cannot. I ordered my 54 dipstick last week. Should have it this week. Looking forward to running more oil.

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That suggestion first came from Porsche back in about 2001 when customers were complaining of "Smoke Bombs" at DE Events on 996's and Boxsters, and spread through the Porsche Community as way to eliminate the problem. This is way before I invented the UAOS. You really need to know ALL the history behind to fully understand. The M96 was first designed to hold 9.3qts oil ,then from the DE Events customers were complaining of "Smoke Bombs" so Porsche advised to solve the issue by running 1/2qt low (8.75qts).or half full on the dipstick in 2001, then in mid 2002 Porsche changed the owners manual to indicate the oil change fil capacity was only 8.75qts and the engines had a longer dipstick ( #55) and a revised cluster program... This also meant that people who were running 1/2 low or only half way full on the dipstick were now running only 8.25qts oil. Then there were more instances of rod bearing failures on 996.2 cars because they were running 1 qt low at the track..So that's why I say it's a big NO NO...Of course with a 2 qt deep sump on a 996.2 car, even if you are running at "half full" on the "55" dipstick, you are actually still 1qt more than the original m96 design. With the UAOS w/XTDD you can run "FULL" even with the original "54" dipstick, and even "overfull"..if you wish.. Oil is the lifeblood of the engine, more is good. The reasons you DON"T want too much is as follows 1 you don't want it to get in the intake 2 you don't want it to hit the bottom of the crankshaft and loose horsepower or get aerated 3 you don't want it to leak/spill out of the top 4 you don't want to carry extra weight or pay extra expense Number 4 really doesn't count to us Porsche 996 people This subject belongs in the UAOS thread. BTW there are 8 new versions/variations of the UAOS availible for 986 987 997... !!!

If it is anything like the UAOS, damn the economy, I am looking forward to another issue being solved. As an almost octogenarian I plan on driving....that is driving safely right up until I get my wings......continue to Purge Skip......

Thanks for the explanation, it all makes sense now and I learned a thing or two. 🙂

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I will continue , problem solving on vehicles is all I have ever done and all I do..I enjoy the designing part best, the rest not so much.. Your welcome !! and it's free of charge..some days I enjoy teaching, others I wish I had a 1-900 line at $3 a minute...

Porschetech3 any updates on delivery dates

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Hi Maher, I sent an E-mail update last Friday to those who were waiting delivery . I'm sorry but I missed sending you one, I had your E-mail in a separate place because you were the first. I will send you a copy. I have some very good things to tell, but I cannot post them publicly at this moment.

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is there any update on this?

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Yes there is, but there is much I can't talk about at this time.( Legal/Patent issues) All I can say is that Track Testing has shown that the Twin Tunnel Port /UIDS will correct previous issues of oil pressure drops in "high G-Force" turns. In the words of a Private Tester who was having severe oil pressure drops in high-G turns on Race Track, the improvement is "miraculous" Video below, UIDS bench test with slosh tank, oil temp 200F , degree angle test, 2 qts oil in sump( NOTE : 1G = 45 degrees) Video 3.5 degree UIDS test, 2 qts oil You Tube Video 30 degree UIDS test , 2 qts oil You Tube

Glad the track testing was positive. Nothing better than miracles based on engineering. Keep pushing gents.

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Sorry to hear about your health issues! I hope you're recovered and doing well. Any chance of getting track oil pressure data posted? I'm interested, but I was holding out to see more track testing, a-la zbomb's oil pressure instability thread. I know when looking for track testers, you stressed that they should have data-logging capability. Obviously your swamped right now, but can they post their data?

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I would like to see the data as well. My concern would not be the ability to function under sustained heavy g load but rather the transitioning of g loading from left to right and fore and aft and how the changeover from 1 pickup to the other looks from a continuity of supply standpoint. I would think you would like to see pressure captured pre filter at like 25 hz or more to give the type of granularity to really show what�s happening and how seamless the transition is.

I haven't checked into the 996 forum in awhile but I thought Zbomb was going to be testing this? Where's that data?

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Same I thought he�d be the first one to buy it and then provide the data.

Guys with corona syndrome issues with personal shipping and supplies has effectively slowed down every aspect in our lives im patient and trust skip and the crew to provide all that’s needed he is a seasoned veteran and I have faith in his products that’s why I gave him my money first I’m sure skip will have the uids tested till it’s ready

Judging by Zbomb's current thread(s), I don't think he's been acquiring much track data the last few months... ;-)

Nice demonstration of the operation of the pistons, but it looks like the flow of oil into the pickup area is limited during transition. I understand this is just demonstrating the operation of the pistons but with engine running the oil is pulled out of the sump rather quickly. Just an amateur observation but could there be a chance of oil areation?

I believe the design addresses that. If you think about it, any piston movement limitation would be caused by lack of g-force, and in that case, the pickups would still be submerged. Only 1 pickup is needed to satisfy the oil delivery. And in transition from one to the other, I don�t think one side is closed off fully before the other side is opened fully, and vice versa. And I �think� opening and closing is variable.

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Precisely 100% correct !!! All I can say to those who want a particular type data is, the Porsche Gods say, ask and ye shall receive, just not today.. Note that these video's are of UIDS Version 3.2. It differs from UIDS Version 3.0 in that 3.0 has a steel bushing in it that the shaft rides on, Version 3.2 has a PTFE bushing for the shaft to ride on. It has 1/4th the coefficient of friction of the steel Version 3.0 (0.16 compared to 0.04) UIDS Version 3.3 is the one I can't talk about (patentable addition). All I will say it has a unique "baffle/sail" that not only will stop the slosh of the oil in the sump, but is a secondary G-force sensor to control the valve movement/position.

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Skip, Don�t want to sound like a pain in the butt, but on several posts and emails since the end of March you have stated that UIDS were ready to ship and most recently on 5/27 you indicated you would be shipping the units out by Friday June 3. What version will those of us that have already paid in full get when you finally ship them and what is a realistic time frame that they will be shipped. I know there have been issues beyond your control but maybe you have been premature in requesting payment in full long before availability of the product. Still looking forward to installing the UIDS, but at the same time hope we can get sooner than later.

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Hi Jack, You and everyone will receive the latest UIDS Version 3.3. I fully intended to ship over a month ago, but the delays happened and I had nothing to ship. As time would have it, I thought of some improvements that I wanted to incorporate into the UIDS as I always want to deliver the best I can. Not wanting to make improvements "after" because that just leads to having to update more units. Right now I only have a few units to update to Version 3.3. I remember on the UAOS anytime I made improvements it ticked off the ones who had already gotten an earlier version. In fact I have one on the way that right now someone bought second hand (new never put on) and I am updating the wiring harness to Plug-n-Play for free. I promise I'm am not making any "interest" on your money, it is right where you left it in PayPal, I haven't touched it. A click of a button will return it. I do look at it ( and others as well) every once in a while as motivation to keep going. And as proof that this is a worthwhile effort... I have been turning away orders left and right for a long time,(over a month) and will not take any more until I get these delivered.

Hey Proschetech3! this is just amazing! I lost my 986 S's first engine to in 2010 and then replaced the original 3.2 with a 3.6 with what was at the time one of the first 7.2-7.8 swaps in the US. That engine started eating oil and ticking in 2014 and I parked it. The car at that point had seen some 10,000 track miles (Hoosiers, PSSS9s, etc). I am finally getting back to it after life got in the way and after reading this and zbomb's thread before it, I just can't say how awesome this is! Glad I found this before I pulled the trigger on the deep slump kit! I had a accusump, but as discussed here it never worked more than once. Your website seems to have orders active again, just was curious if that was active before placing one?

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Hi EasyC , glad you have joined us and are up to speed. I really appreciate your enthusiasm !! I haven't turned the order button back on yet. Been having supply/manufacturing delays, employee problems ect., and also my brain won't stop finding ways to improve things.But George is on it, and once we get these initial ones delivered, I will turn the order button back on..

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We appreciate you! I signed up with my email for updates, so super excited for this solution! Question that I haven�t seen answered. The only difference between your 986/987 UIDS and the 996 unit is orientation, correct? Since I have a 996 3.6 in my 986, I assume I still need the 986/987 unit, correct?

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Yes, the UIDS is optimized for either forward facing engine ( Boxster/Cayman) of rearward faceing engine (911) .. If you want to make a sump/pickup as inexpensively as possible to fit both fore and aft orientations, you put the pick-up in the center and surround it with baffles hoping to keep the oil in. But this has proven not effective as reports show pressure loss on hard braking. An optimized location for each would have been better, but would require two different versions. As we know a Porsche will create 3-4 times more G-force when braking as it will accelerating, meaning it go from 100mph to 0mph 3-4 times faster than it will go from 0mph to 100mph The Twin Tunnel Ports of the UIDS are optimized for each application.( UIDS-911 vs UIDS-B/C) plus the unique switching valve to keep the pick-up ports in the deepest-less aerated oil available when in continuous high-G turns.

Hey Skip, any more updates? The last one was 6-7 business days from 6/7 you should have them in hand. Hope all is well sir.

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Hi Justin, I just found your E-mails in my Spam folder, I have no idea why Yahoo directed them there. I suppose I need to check my Spam folder much more often. Yea, I have sent out the updated v3.3 parts to the few who are running some of the UIDS v3.0 (early testers) and have enough to update half of the ones I have on hand.. I still need more though.. Replied to your E-mail also.. .

One paid for and coming to Australia. Thanks Skip.

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i hope to have mine soon before my track days in July

+1!

Update.. As of about a week ago Skip and I are no longer partners on the UIDS. I will continue to manufacture and supply him parts for the UIDS as well as the UAOS. Skip and I were butting heads too frequently, causing progress of the UIDS to slow to a creep. For the sake of the project, I decided to back off and give Skip full control.

Are we still going to get these??? I thought everything was going well with the development

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I appreciate your participation in this project and still look forward to receiving the final product one day.

Sorry to see this. Hopefully it is just a business issue. I have seen several times where 2 creative, successful, strong willed people end up parting ways with the product surviving the change. Best wishes to both Skip and George moving forward.

received my UIDS today.. Thanks skip for the rush and making it in time for my track day this weekend.. Now i'm worried about UPS delivering the oil in time as I ordered it almost two weeks ago and its says for delivery tomorrow.. Fingers crossed!!!

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Very cool! Any chance you will have a data logger for RPM and Oil pressure? Good luck at the track!

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I wish I did but I don�t� @Porschetech3 I know you had a few folks testing this and some that now have had real world experience, so can you or anyone post the data with some comments on the UIDS

The Technology is ahead of the "data" ..That's just the way I do it... Here is a data plot for UIDS v3.0 from Mid-Ohio on May 22 ,2022 . From Turn 4 is a big long "U" shaped turn with high G-forces( 1.65 G !!) .. oil temp was 118C , oil pressure and oil temperature were measured at the head...so the oil temp will show "cooler" than measured at the Sump or oil filter, and oil pressure is less than would be measured at the filter..///////// The UIDS that Justin has is UIDS V3.3.2 with several evolutionary improvements.. Version 3.3.2 has PTFE/Teflon bushings , has a "patentable sail/baffle " and has O-ringed rollers... Show me another Sump for the m96/7 that can DO THAT !!

Great result. Congrats to you for this successful and thanks for putting all the effort in and making it available to the 996 owners.

My B...wrong thread.

Skip, I have a few questions to help ease my mind and others. I'm getting a lot questions and thought I would just ask them here. 1. How many of the UIDS V3.3 are out in use today? 2. Can you provide testimonial feedback from current users or they can chime in if they are on here. 3. Can you provide the most current data for us to see the performance of this great product? (side note: if time does not allow you to create this I'm sure someone can help you sort ot the data and graph it out like in @zbomb thread) 4. Spare parts (o-rings and such), Are they currently available for current UIDS buyers to purchase. Redundancy is always a good idea . Let's start with these. As you know I'm a new owner of the UIDS and with out the data from you, and or real world assessment from others using the UIDS today , it's hard for me to put the UIDS in use. It's not a trust thing with Skip, but life lessons has taught me to always seek more than one opinion before jumping in. Can't wait to see the awesome data and or great feedback from others.

I for one bought this because I want to lightly track my car and ease the oil starvation issues im sure no I’m positive skip has done all testing to make sure it works but real world has more variables but I do have faith in this product just from the interactions of skips work plus 3 known upgrades before it goes public I’m impressed

Justin76, You mean you laid out $3k for a product you�re now asking �just a few questions� about? There�s a ton of info right in this here thread. I�d suggest reading it before you make frivolous requests of Skip - he�s been developing this thing for well over a year (I�m pretty sure it�s more like two or three not counting original thought/concept). READ THE THREAD�

Yeah I mean honestly, if anyone doesn't want their UIDS, I'LL TAKE IT

I remember joining rennlist about the time the UAOS was being rolled out and it got a little crazy. Problem is that with written responses on social media, email and texts its tough to judge the tone and intent. Let's give everyone the benefit of doubt that all intent is good and give Skip the chance as a well respected, successful and experienced professional to roll things out as he is ready. He hit a home run with the UAOS. No doubt in my mind the UIDS will as well. 🙂

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Yes i did shell out the money (4 months in advance I might ad) because i believed in Skip and his proven track record. I agree there is a ton if info but many updates/revisions have been made and no data has been made available on the current V3.3 except for the latest post from skip showing a high G tun at Mid Ohio (great data also). With that said all we asked for was data on a certain turn on the same track where the data is from that he already has.. If anything it's just more validation after all the final updates of how great the product is.. I don't have a data system for testing on my vehicle (yet..maybe soon now) otherwise I would post all the data for him to share with the group as @zbomb and others have done. I'm also a big believer is trust then verify. The concept is simple as an example if you were given a medical diagnosis would only trust that doctor or seek other doctors opinions to verify. Doctors like all people are human and can make mistakes in everything including a medical diagnosis. At the end of the day the questions aren't tough or hard and are being asked to me from others on this board and others that are not on this board. Pony up the cash like most of us did then.. I have no reason to have ill intent. I've been patient, polite, and considerate to Skip and everyone else on rennlist except @TheChunkNorris because he is a sack face (inside joke) Hope this better explains the why behind the why on things..

I see where Justin is coming from he has a right to question it was his $3k some people just paid no questions asked I think was was the first paid customer others sit on the fence waiting and others still never adapt

I have been so busy lately updating the UIDS and getting through all the supply issues and delays, I haven't had time for anything else.. This conversation has reminded me of what can happen if someone installs the UIDS on an "unhealthy m96/7" and takes it to the track for the first time..and the engine lets go for some reason (unrelated to UIDS).... "The Warranty is 2 Years Unlimited Mileage. Warranty is for the material and Craftsmanship only and does not cover Labor or anything else outside of parts replacement only " Same as with UAOS... The warranty does not cover piece of mind, that is a job for Insurance Companies with deep pockets ( I don't have deep pockets) or for Psychologist , this is just a mechanical part ..

Will there be more updates? I always so no, but nothing is ever "perfect".. Yes I have been running it for over 10 months and driving the **** out of it. Would I take it off? Not on your life !! Yes I have a " real live oil pressure data" on the car that I watch constantly.. Has it ever dropped oil pressure , never !!!

More has been asked of me than anyone else on the planet who has similar/lesser products, even Porsche themselves... And some people wonder why the aftermarket isn't jumping to build upgrades for the these.. Justin I'm curious what questions have been asked to you?

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Totally normal as expected from anyone .. 100% agree here Got it .. makes sense to me Skip, I surprised that you think more has been asked of you since you're always so generous with your information and data. If you weren't such the solid person then only a few people would have ordered and they would just buy it to test on there own and then have claims about the product using their own data. To me is just seems odd that you won't post the data for all to see as it would great marketing for you and people would be lining up even outside of RL. Maybe you give us the contact of the car's owner that tested at Mid-Ohio so I can reach out to them to retrieve the data for the sole purpose to take a load of your plate. I can have it graphed and charted for you to display. Just food for thought and sincerely trying to help As for the questions I stated most of them above but here are a few more. 1. Time frame for the next batch to be released? 2. When will preorders open up again? 3. Has anyone outside of of the developer been using the sump with any type of long term testing? 4. You answered the warranty question above. (I would consider selling some spare parts incase some accidentally hurt an o-ring, etc.. personally I would buy a back up set on stand by so the car wouldn't be down waiting.) Just FYI that some of these questions came from local Porsche guys, Social Media after I posted the pictures, etc...

Sounds like he doesn�t need/want anymore business. Id spend my time selling off the IP, if I were Skip. 😎 QUOTE=Porschetech3;18263601 I don't want any more "interest" in the UIDS . I don't want any more orders.( turned them off 2 months ago) I'm happy with what I got. It is turning into "work" and I am retired and not in good health and will do things my way or not at all.. ..[/QUOTE]

Keeping my mouth shut.

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Maybe he can get The resident �millionaire� involved? I know his Turbo is good, but that early .1 can benefit�.

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I hate how much I like your style.

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Yep, same with the 44 different variations of the UAOS.. Designing them was FUN But building them, stocking them, selling them, answering questions about them, is NOT. That's why I haven't been "marketing " all the new variations.. [/QUOTE] Not a chance.....I spent weeks answering questions from him on the UAOS....and he put on a stock AOS..Yes I'm turning into a vindictive SOB When I die, ( which may not be long off) my Son may sell off the IP, if he wants, even to him, I just need a " little" something to do..

Hey skip I feel fortunate to be one of the few buyers I trust your ability and efforts it just seems like once a developer of high end 996 stuff gets noticed they get worn down by all the BS and quit it’s a shame I left the E30 M3 world for the same shizer

[/QUOTE Not a chance.....I spent weeks answering questions from him on the UAOS....and he put on a stock AOS..Yes I'm turning into a vindictive SOB .[/QUOTE] what a drag. He has to be the most annoying member of any Porsche forum I�ve been on since I started on PP 20yrs ago. Good luck with your health concerns.

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what a drag. He has to be the most annoying member of any Porsche forum I�ve been on since I started on PP 20yrs ago. Good luck with your health concerns.[/QUOTE] If is me I haven�t replaced my AOS. I did ask questions about the sump but since I don�t track my 99 , I put the $3k in performance upgrades on my car. On a personal note I been promoting skips products at the few track meets I have gone to.

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https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/1241861-aos.html Surely you are not still driving it like that....with that AOS..

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The AOS has not been replaced, according to a manometer is still working, and yes I drove today. Ac blowing cold, almost 101k miles no bore scoring, 1, -1 deviations as off last measurement, and I would not hesitate to drive to the moon and back as it sits right now. I seen the UAOS on an engine that MY mechanic was putting together and yes it looks great, but if it ain�t broke don�t mess with it. Anyway I only have $22k on that 99 so it�s not like it is a million dollar car but is reliable as hell. Also by the way USAA gave me $2175 worth of hail damage. I only spent $300 fixing some bad dings. If the engine doesn�t blow up. I sell it with 150k miles with all his original patina and make money on the car, hell I may sell the turbo and put a 3.8 on the 99. Time will only tell,

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Thanks man, your UIDS has shipped as well. I'll send you the tracking # tomorrow...

Are these going to be commercially available at some point? I missed out on the preorder. Long story short I bought my first Porsche in May with a 4.0 and all the goodies. I almost immediately had a rod bearing failure so now I am putting a factory short block in the car. Lost my *** but trying to make the best of an awful situation. Part of getting the car back together includes adding the UAOS from day 1. I was hoping to do the same with the UIDS but some of the comments indicate it may just be the one run for the people that already paid and we�re lucky enough to have been added to the list before ordering was halted. Guessing I just missed out and I understand if this is too much of a chore. Mostly I am just trying to understand if there are plans for the future of the product. Seems like it would be a shame to see something like this fizzle away. Can�t wait to hear about the experiences of people that put these to the test so I�ll follow the thread regardless.

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Right, but if no more are made, the ones in existence will be more valuable...stay tuned

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You need a UAOS. How else are you going to safely go supersonic?

Any update? This is our golden hope obvi-wan!

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I was actually the first paid customer and glad I was after seeing the downturn of events. Hope your health improves Skip. Please people should always be on the bottom of your list over family and personal health.

Installed the UIDS last night on my 986 and it was the most straightforward of jobs. Like amazingly easy. Today I took the car to a local PCA auto-x and thanks to my inability to drive I tested the UIDS at all kinds of interesting G forces. Oil pressure (as indicated on my 996 cluster) in the review of my video was rock solid in every condition vs known dips in previous auto-x and HPDE events. Pics below demonstrate the oil level that I ran with (right at 9qts). Thanks for helping to increase the longevity of my motor. Soon I hope to install the track drain for my UAOS which may not be as fun and is why I haven't done it yet lol. Once the track drain goes in I will add another .5qt plus or minus and run just over half full on the digital gauge. I have a few more comparison pictures as well related to ground clearance as I'm coming from a mantis 1.5 sump with skid plate. I gained at least .75" ground clearance which is great for my application. .5" of that coming from the sump and .25 or so from the skid plate I'm no longer running. Shawn

One of my favorite features of UIDS, besides the obvious, is the use of the gasket to seal it up! So easy and no more dealing with silicone and "code brown" when your Silicone reading on the UOA goes from 6 to 33. Now it's back to 3 Skip - what's the process for getting a replacement seal? Can it be purchased on the site? Not needed now but would like to have one on hand in case I need to pull the UIDS.

Shawn thanks for the nice pics and review. Yes ground clearance was big importance on the UIDS. I also have some comparison "DATA' on the UIDS vs Mantis Sump from a recent Road America PCA Race that I will post in a bit...You can see how much better the UIDS is directly compared to the Mantis Sump through the "Carousel" at Road America..or rather no comparison ..lol Pete : Yes, keeping the silicone out of the UOA was one of the big reasons for using the O-ring, even more so than the "no-mess" and time/aggravation of having to clean off old silicone and reapply......the O-ring used to seal the UIDS is a very high quality Viton with a 70 Durometer and can withstand 350F temperatures and is impervious to oil and other harsh chemicals.. It will last for years and years and can even be reused many times before it becomes brittle or looses its elastic properties. But I do have spares available just encase an accident happens while R&Ring the Sump..just drop me a message at [email removed] and I'll tell you how to order..

That's awesome news about the o-ring! Didn't realize it can be reused! I might order one at some point just in case but this is very good to know. It's the details!

Skip was able to get me a UIDS before my first track day - thanks again Skip! Really well thought out and beautifully made (thanks George!). If you've read the thread from the beginning, it's really neat to see the subtle evolution of the design (though I don't know the engineering reasons for all of them). It's obvious Skip is constantly thinking of ways to improve. O-ring (instead of sealant) is a really nice touch. LN Drain plug fits fine. Installation was really easy. Hardest part was cleaning off the old sealant. New 997 oil returns included with UIDS (and all hardware). Guide pins to ease installation. Done!

Nice SleepyCyclist�. I thought I was following this thread closely but must have missed something. What�s the black rectangular peace at the back for?

It's an impact protector. I've already used it once when I forgot to slow down over a speed bump. It works.

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cool Beams, and thanks

So, what is included in the kit? Are those 997 returns in the kit itself, or bought separately? -Matt

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they were included in my sump kit .. so yes i believe is the answer

With the UIDS you get all new hardware, sealing gasket, guide pins (which are essentially long bolts with heads removed), 997 oil return tubes, oil drain plug and gasket, and oil temp port plug. In other words, it includes everything you will need except for the oil, of which you will need a bit more of than before.

Awesome, just wanted to check to make sure

So everyone like to look at "data" and squiggly lines on graphs with numbers so here is a few.. This one shows the improvement from UAOS Track Version from the standard UAOS.. This is from zbomb,s m96 with a 2qt deep sump, the dark red is with the UAOS Track Version and green is with the standard UAOS and you can see the difference.

This graph is from a 2006 Cayman with a Mantis Sump at Mosport Race Track during a Race..

This graph is from a recent Race at Road Amercia during a race showing a 2006 Cayman with the Mantic Sump through the Carousel, a place that a LOT of engines fail.

This one is the same Race at Road America with a 2006 Cayman with UIDS (doesn't have UAOS Track Version ) through the Carousel...on less than 9 qts oil

I would have stayed out, but since you posted my data, I'll consider that an invitation to participate. Whats with the 1 bar max pressure difference between the 2 Cayman's ? The non UIDS is 4.5 bar and the UIDS equipped car is 3.5. And why do you keep trimming the data, post the full data set. Send it to @golock911 and let him analyze it like he did mine.

This one is also at Road Amercia showing the Carousel, The Kink , and Canada Corner with the UIDS on the 2006 Cayman ( without UAOS ) and does show a little drop in Canada Corner...I have already designed a new baffle that will correct this and will add to the cost of the UIDS $100 although with the addition of UAOS Track Version this little dip would probably not have been there... BTW this car placed 2nd in all three races ( 2 Sprint Races and 1 Enduro )at Road America recently and has 10 Sprint Races and 5 Enduro's with about 400 practice laps on the UIDS..( the car with the Mantis Sump placed 3rd in all three), there season is over but will have the UAOS Track Version on for next season.. But this kind of Extreme Testing takes time, and also it takes time for me to actually make things...( health is not great) .

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The Cayman with the UIDS had his engine fail at Road America 2 years ago and the engine was rebuilt with what has been assumed as more clearance in the bearings..the one with the Mantis Sump has the factory clearance on the bearings..( I just found this out) ... I don't need any help analyzing the data..lol and I don't trust the people who comment on the data I post. You can see from the Dyno Graph thread that you have that people will just dream up scenarios to ask questions about..The DATA should speak for its self, but people will still read into whats there.. You have even already questioned the oil pressure and even wrongly assumed it was before and after....The data is what it is.....but don't dream up stuff...

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Looks like you need help posting a full lap - there is no reason to parse the data, it's MORE work than just posting a full lap the way Aim spits it out. And this not trusting people thing is such a load of bull****. Its called a conversation. I'll tell you what I've learned not to trust, parsed data, the old "look over here, not over there, there's nothing over there". I didn't assume it was before and after in the above, I specifically call out 2 cars. In our previous exchange that reflected low max oil pressure, I did assume it was from the same car based off the statement you made which is below, no problem, I'll own that: ​​​​​​ The last time the question of the low max oil pressure was broached, your response was: So, is the car here the same one as the one with the sensor in the head ?

Quotes source post: 18389497

There you go again making a mountain out of a mole hill..You are not the only one looking and reading this stuff. Yes at first you wrongly assumed all the data was from the same car, even though I NEVER SAID IT WAS.. These cars are not mine so I don't know all the details on them.. BUT THE DATA IS WHAT IT IS.. Yes they are both measured at the head, same head, and yes it will be lower than YOUR car which is measured at the oil filter... BTW :: Why are you badgering me about the oil pressure on this car???? It is what it has been since I or UIDS had anything to do with it...and hasn't changed in 15 races and 400 practice laps...I have nothing to do with his oil pressure.. Are you trying to say that the UIDS is CAUSING his oil pressure to be low??WTF???

Let's not forget that Road America is a big boy track... Big speed, long turns, real braking. Can't compare any other track in the US to it. Especially 2-2.5 mile long tracks. The carousel into the kink, thru thunder alley at 145 into Canada corner is uncomparable with a smaller track. But you dont have to take my word for it. Just listen to every professional driver that has ever raced it. Uncomparable.

Quotes source post: 18389522

Yes, Big Boy Track for sure ......the Carousel is where he lost his engine 2 years ago when he was running the Mantis Sump. It is a very very long turn with high G-Forces that kills a LOT of engines if they can't handle G-forces....He will be installing the UAOS Track Version with 1qt more oil over the off season. Here is a direct comparison of the UIDS vs Mantis through the Carousel, The Kink, Thunder Alley, and Canada Corner using their fastest laps of the day...( Note UIDS is running on less than 9qts oil and does not have the UAOS Track Version with extra 1qt )

When accessing the oil delivery system on an engine, and in particular the Sump System , what you want to see is a straight line/base-line.. It doesn't matter what type Sump System you are looking at, be it WET, DRY, or INTEGRATED ...what you want to see is a straight line..... In this type data being electrical it has a normal small "saw-tooth" pattern from not having any "Smoothing" ...So ignore the small " saw teeth" and consider that as straight.. The only exception to the straight base-line is if the RPM falls below the oil by-pass setting that is normally about 3500 rpm, then the base-line will follow RPM... Any "large saw-teeth" or drops from the base-line are from air/oil mixture and is not desired due to not being good quality or pure oil..( air is not compressible ). Simply put on ANY Sump System , WET,DRY,or INTEGRATED you want to see this..... and NOT this..... and this is especially desirable in "known problem areas", such as high G-Force corners......

Quotes source post: 18390374

whats happening here? Why is it inversed from the comparison plot? similar inversion occurs towards the end. Is the timing off or data is accidently inversed, something else? Edit: If you shift that green plot to the left it seems to line up, across the data set, granted it's less extreme, but still present...seems like it could be a logging error.

Let's assume that the UAOS with track drain and extra oil solves 24% of oil pressure issues and the UIDS adds another 75% of protection from catastrophic oil pressure loss. This would in theory prevent most if not all oil pressure issues which again in theory could save the driver anywhere between 8-10k in a new engine plus labor plus downtime etc. This above is why I bought the UIDS. I will admit I felt kind of strange when the track drain showed so much promise recently. However, I do not want to worry about oil pressure or my AOS ever again and I've bought both products to help reach this goal. While the track drain with extra oil does seem to help with oil pressure I do not THINK that it does anything to prevent aeration of the oil. The UIDS oil pick design however seems like it would prevent any aerated oil from being picked up as it pulls from the very bottom of the sump. A few words from a guy who has no idea what he is talking about but is a consumer who bought both products. ***edited to clarify my stance of which product I have more faith in controlling my oil pressure. The original theoretical numbers caused some question and this thread has already been through enough I'd hate to add to the confusion***

Quotes source post: 18390604

I'm inclined to agree with you, looks like pressure drops are reduced and duration decreased...eliminated, no. Maybe thats good enough to solve the problem, don't know. Timing still looks off though.

Quotes source post: 18390604

Thanks Shawn, let me give you some more insight.. If you look at the data comparison on UAOS Track Version vs UAOS standard,, and also at the comparison of UIDS vs Mantis ( or another available m96 Sump ), while the UAOS Track Version does give a very nice improvement in" oil delivery stability", I would give it a 25% , and the UIDS I would give the 75% to ........

Quotes source post: 18390374

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This is why Professionals hate to post "data".... It can/will lead to an education/teaching instance,( which is fine with me) or worse it will lead to false assumptions and arguments and even go down rabbit holes instead of staying with the intended purpose which is " showing oil delivery stability".. Before I go into a "teaching moment" I need to clarify a few things with you because I know of your skeptical nature.. The data is exactly correct.. It is not shifted. It is not inverted. The timing is not off. There is no logging error.. Do you think I have "manipulated" the data??

Quotes source post: 18390664

I agree with you Skip, I was only playing devils advocate in an effort to highlight the reasons I bought the products. The percentages of assistance where theoretical. Per design and general understanding of oil supply the UIDS is what I would buy first. As of now I only have my UIDS AND UAOS installed, I need to install the track drain still I have a HPDE coming up soon so I need to get to it!

Quotes source post: 18390699

Maybe "selective" is a better word.

Quotes source post: 18390666

LMAOOO

Quotes source post: 18390735

Yes.. MUCH better ....you can bet that I select portions that show how much better the UIDS is than everything else that is designed by Porsche or is available for m96 and leave out the stuff that can be misunderstood/incorrectly assumed..ect.. Who the hell wouldn't ???

Quotes source post: 18390719

The Track Drains are instock.....The UAOS kits are all sold out and backordered at the moment...George is making a new batch this week, but his company has been behind and the small CNC machine that is used to make UAOS's has been busey on a large long running job, he he has bought a new small cnc machine like the one used for UAOS's to keep up with work flow..

Quotes source posts: 18390666, 18390745

Wow. It's clear from the above all the areas you left out...

Quotes source post: 18390765

There you go making mountains out of mole hills again... I left out all the ****....the little mole hills that don't matter,,, I posted the mountains where the UIDS outperforms and you can see that it WAY surpasses what you did with your m96 EVEN with the help of UAOS !! So go back to your morphodite Chevy/Porsche and I will send a UIDS to Dejeeper if he wants it, to finish the job on that M96.....

Quotes source post: 18390776

And just to cap it off and show "DATA" on what I'm talking about, this snip is Zbombs best/latest outing using the 11.75qts oil on the M96 WITHOUT UIDS at Thompson through some left right high-g turns about 900ft This one is the Cayman with UIDS through similar turns at Mosport Track in Canada using less than 9qts oil ..shows about 2000ft So 900 feet of crazy instability vs 2000ft of stability, which one would you prefer?? We will see if Dejeeper wants to play and "fix" the m96 that Zbomb gave up on...

You cut out the stuff we're not supposed to see this time, so much so that in my data you can't even see the track in the lower left. DO NOT post any of my data unless you post the full picture using full laps. I don't want games played with my stuff the way you are doing with yours. I NEVER cut or hid any data I posted, I sent mine to anyone who asked for it evaluation and analysis, FULL UNEDITED LOGS. You hide what you don't want people to see and you admit it. Your reasoning for this, you hide what can be "misunderstood/incorrectly assumed" is indicative of how dumb you think we are. You've been doing this since the UIDS came out and you continue to do now. You have never been forthcoming about ANY shortcomings with the UIDS even though they exist. Good luck with @De Jeeper

Quotes source post: 18390699

I'm absolutely not accusing you of manipulating the data, you need to relax chief. you said those dips should not occur, they are clearly occurring in different places I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it, either something is off OR the problem is being introduced elsewhere. got it no questions to the self proclaimed m96 lord.

Wow, a lot to unpack here� what might these UIDS shortcomings be? and I must have missed it but how is the track drain on the UAOS an improvement? I apparently missed some things�

Why is it that some people try to find fault with a new product/process that will improve our cars? Is it jealousy? Is it ignorance? Is it anger? Are they just wanting to run others down for fun and to make them feel better about themselves? Is it just internet keyboard warriors? What is the driver? To me the distractors seem to want PERFECTION. Perfection is very difficult or impossible to achieve with most, if not, all products. All this seems to accomplish is driving the people who do design improvements to walk away from sharing here which leads to the degrading of this forum. We all lose when this happens. I appreciate those who provide a product that improves our cars even if it does NOT achieve PERFECTION.

You confuse perfection and honesty. ETA - you act like I just slam everything, funny and inaccurate. I was one of and continue to be a huge proponent of the UAOS with drain, do you think between you and I, one of us has helped more than the other to get those things sold ?

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I'm a UIDS customer and happy with the product Skip created but I also see where zbomb is coming from. Call me Switzerland if you want. If you think he is attacking Skip (I don't see it as such) you're not seeing the big picture and missed the first bus that sparked this whole oil pressure thing. Have we forgotten that zbomb and probably hundreds if not thousands of people spent a lot of money on a product that said to solve the issue when in reality it did not?? All the materials said it did but in the end hard proof showed it did not. Now, those folks have every reason to be skeptical of a new product that claims to do the same. It's really as simple as that. I really don't understand why it's so frowned upon to ask questions on this forum, especially when they challenge the status quo or what has been preached for years? For some people, like myself, the provided data has been sufficient, especially in how I will use my car . Other people demand more, which is fine. Paralysis by analysis is also a thing.

Quotes source post: 18391184

I'll fill you in quickly. The track drain is an improvement as oil is available to the pump to be used for lubrication as opposed to being held in the reservoir till it is manually being poored back into the sump. Wrt to possible shortcomings of the UIDS: The UIDS shows a tremendous improvement in oil pressure stability but ultimately (pun intended) does raise the question with a few of the contributors in this thread why it isn't able to provide it under ALL conditions as under certain hitherto unkown conditions (sequence of curves, their radii, brake zones etc.) the pressure still drops. Is it because the transition feeding the oil pump from the other port in the sump is too slow? Is this due to friction inside the ball valve or due to something else? Is the much greater than both types of Porsche AOS drain back capacity of the track UAOS still not sufficient to always have the UIDS provide the pressure pump with enough oil? Or is it perhaps because the pressure pump has to effectively suck against the (vector) sum of both (slick tire induced) greater lateral and gravitational acceleration that causes cavitation of the oil pump thereby reducing its flow and thereby the pressure it generates? Skip might know but prefers to not share his findings here on rennlist. From how I understand his reactions to focusing on certain excerpts of data instead of data for whole laps he considers these questions as taking focus away from what is worth focusing on and perhaps even (these are my thoughts not necessarily his) an attempt to question (diminish even?) what his UIDS is able to provide regarding oil pressure stability. I don't believe they are meant as such by those asking but you see how the discussion has evolved right here. It's difficult (and Skip has written so himself in this or the UAOS thread) to know how well versed a contributor to a thread is in the subject but there is definitely a risk in trying to keep the focus on one aspect because 'one knows best' if questions wrt other things/aspects are asked. Personally , I'm convinced that looking into those areas too will improve his UIDS and make it the Ultimate in the most literal meaning of the word it can be.

Quotes source post: 18391280

What product was that?

Quotes source post: 18391312

Not sure if serious question because I'm pretty sure you've seen much of this thread but there you go - https://lnengineering.com/2qt-deep-s...51-baffle.html

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Oh well! I am so glad you pointed out my confusion. How could I have missed such a revelation? You are so perceptive. You WIN!!! Thank you so very much...

Quotes source post: 18391323

That�s what I thought. Did we ever see a baseline WITHOUT the deep sump? I understand the deep sump doesn�t completely solve the problem. But without a baseline it�s possible the deep sump is responsible for keeping his engine running on the track. The deep sump equipped M96 never suffered any damage from low oil pressure, right?

Quotes source post: 18391292

thanks Bro� going forward I hope everyone here sees that we are all on the same team and want the problems fixed with good products so we can enjoy our cars. lord knows we�ve been sold some real snake oil over the years. (Cold air intakes that only replace a hose, open pod filters that sit in a super hot engine bay, ipd plenum, deep sumps that do nothing but lighten your wallet, the list goes on) There are people out here charging 30-50k for engine rebuilds that refuse to hand over any real tangible proof that that money will net you a better product (ain�t nobody at their throats) From what I�ve seen Skip has been pretty much open to any and all questions/comments.

Quotes source post: 18391431

PCA and 9werks have videos showing decent gains from the IPD plenum on a �99 3.4. Both did it the right way: They got a baseline, installed the plenum and then tested on the same day. I wouldn�t call an increase of 10hp + 12 ft-lbs across the rev range for the IPD plenum �snake oil�.

Quotes source post: 18391540

I was for sure 9werks did the ipd and other mods together� I�ll go look but I�ve yet to see an ipd plenum tested alone and make any difference

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Quotes source post: 18391540

for whatever reason many people racers I have spoken too say thr plenum does works great on the cable throttle 99. I have one and yes it does.

Well I slept late today, ( was working most of the night...)...not much here technical for me to respond to, but several things I do want to respond to that are not technical ( and I hope it doesn't lead to more of the same) EDIT: nevermind I'll respond to the BS later, I have someone coming over to work on the update that will cure the mole hill at Road America ( Big Boy Track)...like I mentioned previously that I had already designed.. Y'all hold off posting for a bit, it will take me a while to catch up......

Quotes source post: 18391355

Your right. A baseline on an oem sump was never established in the oil stability thread. The testing started with the 2q deep sump partially underfilled. As the uaos track version was added and the oil levels were increased, the data showed that oil pressure stability also increased. But everyone is free to do what they want with their 996. No worries on my end.

Quotes source post: 18392530

Well I decided not to respond to the BS......I can't see how it would accomplish anything.. Everything I said was accurate , all the "data" I posted was accurate... So , carry on............I will post more Technical stuff in a bit........

I feel like I should chime in here. I am the SPC cayman racer who has been working with Skip this past season to gather data and improvements on the UIDS design, and (with my permission) he has been posting my track data in this thread. We have been in close communication throughout the season sharing details and working to optimize his design. If I didn't believe in his design and commitment, I wouldn't use it and a certainly wouldn't risk racing my car with it. Let's get a few details straight -- The data is accurate, it has not been manipulated, there are no logging errors. My engine was rebuilt two years ago and it's likely the greater bearing clearance that is responsible for the baseline P delta between the mantis sump car and mine. Otherwise, the deep sump car's engine and mine are identical with respect to stroke, bore, intake, compression, cooling system (low temp thermostat, 3rd radiator), motorsport AOS, oil weight and brand, lightweight flywheel, stock clutch, semi solid mounts, guards LSD, stock gearbox, air con and PS delete, burning 93 pump gas, stock ECU. We use the same brakes, shocks and the same tyres. It's a "spec" series. This car is being pushed to its performance limits, beyond what Porsche initially designed the engine to endure. Consistent 2G cornering forces, RPM between 4-7k for up to 1.5hrs at a time. I've been consistently on the podium in a very competitive group, with overall wins this year. The car/engine are not being handled with kid gloves. The UIDS is not a perfect solution (which seems to be the criticism above), but the data show that it is clearly the best option currently to reduce drops, especially prolonged drops, in oil pressure in these engines. There are short dips in pressure after the car returns to a neutral yaw which may be due to oil slosh +/- a short delay in the UIDS valve system. Again, Skip has been working with my feedback and data, tweaking his design to minimize this factor. At all levels of analysis, the dips are shorter in duration and less frequent than the current deep sump with baffles and windage tray design. Most critically from a racing point of view, the UIDS corrects any P drops during sustained high G cornering (carousels at RA and the Glen, Key Hole at Mid O, T3 Mosport, etc) which have traditionally been the cause of numerous engine failures. I'm happy to address any questions others may have regarding my car and UIDS experience.

Quotes source posts: 18262043, 18262253, 18262345, 18263019, 18282251, 18178203, 18179371, 18264478

I don�t care about perfection. If that�s what you got from my posts, re-read them. Anyone remember all this� This **** has been going on for months and months and months where I ask for transparency on the units function and I get lit up by @wildbilly32 , @dporto , @philbert996 and @Porschetech3 about how dare I ask questions. Does it make sense now ? The unit may be better than anything else, but this latest exchange has been the only you will find publicly that admits ANY results that differ from the intended. It has been my view and continues to be, customers and perspective customers should not be kept in the dark about the full envelope of performance for the stuff they spend their money on.

Quotes source post: 18395254

Would you mind explaining why there is a preasurure dip and and an inversely proportionate relationship in the data set? Is that dip an acceptable duration to solve the problem? The data appears to be stable except for in two places, what's going on there? Again is that acceptable for risk mitigation? I could understand how it could potentially be ok but some of those statements made don't match whats presented, asking for clarification. Nobody has accused anyone of data manipulataion it's fascinating thats where he went out the gate.

And @Gear Rower - you have been working with Skip on design improvements to a unit that is released, commercially available and customers have on their car. Meaning, you have known the unit has not achieved the target performance. Do you not believe that process should have been completed BEFORE the release of the product ?

This sounds reasonable. I�m in sales. If my product I�m selling is amazing, but a customer still asks me about the trade offs or downsides, I tell them not only because it�s the truth, I tell them because they need to know, so they can plan or design around it. This only works when we have high trust. Otherwise, someone will take what I say and use it against me. So therein lies the problem of positing some of this stuff on the internet, many of which contributing members are still largely anonymous. Have the makers and designers of other deep sump solutions also posted the trade offs of their solutions?

Quotes source post: 18395354

Ah, the ol' "unknown unknowns". I think it was clear that there was an improvement over the current sump solutions from the onset, which would be "target performance", but the challenge became "can it be improved upon?" Racing is certainly a different animal than enthusiastic driving, where suspension and tyres yield greater lateral Gs, and yaw transitions are faster and more frequent. Rarely is a product fully optimized from the onset, even after beta testing. Higher powered data is often required to reveal improvement potential (eg new iphone releases) There is nothing nefarious going on here.

My issue with the sump is the cost. I will always make the most of my money, retired at 45. It had been brought up here Engine rebuilds at $30-50k. Dude I can get a 3.4 with a one year warranty 5 angle valve job, so about 20 more hp for $13k, and I�m keeping my core. Recently I had a disagreement with my mechanic because he wanted to charge book rate time for changing plugs and coils on my turbo. The issue was Diyers on the turbo f�rum said the job could be done in 2 hours, book is 4.9. Anyway I found three different shops that quoted me hard 3 hours. Same with an oil change, I buy my stuff, Valvoline instant oil change will charge me less than $25 for doing the change. So why do I need to pay $50-80 for that is a simple oil change. I know skip knows his stuff but I have never overpaid for anything in my life and I�m not starting now. Racing is expensive and to win you have to have the best of the best. You are also looking for every single bit advantage you can get. I don�t track my two cars but I drive them to the limits. Oil pressure wise, my Mobil 1 Mix 0W40, 5W50 works great, since it�s cheap I drop the oil every 6 months. I ain�t paying for DT 40 either.

Quotes source post: 18395337

- The pressure dip is most likely due to oil slosh during the return to neutral yaw, lat G after corner exit. - You might need to clarify to me what you mean by an inversely proportionate relationship. - Intuitively, I would think that the most critical factor that this sump addresses is the duration of pressure drops -- Those are the bearing killers. So, to sort-of answer your question, it's more acceptable than current sump design options.

Quotes source post: 18395455

Thanks for the response. 1. Ok 2. Look at the chart or where i highlighted green goes down brown goes up, thats an inversely proportionate relationship, or simply put...opposite. its either a lagging dip on transition or something else. Any ideas? 3. Ok, better yes acceptable maybe. It seems plasuable that the green dips are lagging to brown assuming logging and time sync is accurate. Its occurring across the entire data set. This indicates transition problems, or sloshing as you said. Better yes acceptable maybe... but don't try and tell me there are not mutiple pressure drops when there are. Thanks again for the discussion.

Quotes source post: 18395392

Will you send full logs to @golock911 for his data breakdown in the same fashion he has done for the data I have provided ? If the performance of the UIDS is meeting it�s intended target, there is no reason not to.

Quotes source post: 18395372

LN left that for me to do� there was a thread about it.

Quotes source post: 18395517

I understand what an inversely proportionate relationship is, I'm just not sure where you're seeing one in the data. There are no increases in my oil pressure above the resting baseline, no nothing inverse. The dips are not the same in duration, and most are less in severity compared to the deep sump, so there is nothing proportionate that I can glean. A picture is worth a thousand words, so perhaps you could show what you're describing. The pressure dips are consistently at the exit of corners where the car undergoes a transition state from lat load back to level. There are no dips transitioning from level to lateral load (corner entry), it is only upon return to neutral status. Driving through quick transition esses will show dips similar to the deep sump, and I would never state that there are zero drops on a racetrack. I do not have street driving data to assess for comparision. The dips are transient and short, so are unlikely to be detected/significant on a car with street tires during enthusiast style driving, but this is purely speculation on my part. Again, the critical improvement for me as a racer is the decrease in duration of oil pressure drops during sustained high G corners. There's no ambiguity in the data here.

We are in Agreement duration is decreased. These are lagging or inversed points im asking about... unless this track eats 100% experiancing those drops on stock 996 one run is not conclusive to say the shorter duration is acceptable to eliminate the problem for a production product...beta test away. If this solution just moves the problem down the line its not a solution. Also i agree the data is not ambiguous the original statements made about it are.

Quotes source post: 18395656

Ok. We can only speculate, but I would surmise that this is purely down to oil movement within the sump. Deep sump likes the oil steady, level and increases the uptake as the oil returns to 0 lat G. The transient dip in the UIDS is a/w the slosh, however its pressure is steady with both level or max lat G states. It's clear on the data that the oil delivery is more stable with the UIDS and that even though there are aren't zero drops, the dips are fewer in number and, most critically for engine health, significantly shorter in duration. This is much more than moving the problem down the line.

Quotes source post: 18395597

A little off topic but can you tell me who has approved this for use in the spec classes? I sent the basic information to the rules coordinator, he had questions about it I couldn't answer.

Quotes source post: 18395716

PCA 2022 Rules, SPC section D: D. Oiling System. The factory oil and oil cooling system must remain stock, except an external oil cooler, an X-51 oil plate, an aftermarket sump extension or sump pan, a Porsche Motorsport oil/air separator, and an oil accumulator (e.g., Accusump) may be added.

Quotes source post: 18395726

But what about the stock pickup being replaced?

Quotes source post: 18395758

The oil returns via the stock galley in the centre of the pan. It has been cleared by the SPC class rep and is well within the spirit of the rules (engine longevity, no performance advantage). If you race in PCA, discuss this with your series rep and make an appropriate proposal to the governing body.

So, @Gear Rower , are you going to post full data or what ? If you’re a sensible guy, it should be clear that the data that’s been posted to date in support of the efficacy of the UIDS has been selected specifically to highlight its benefits while obscuring its flaws. You keep referring to the fact the data is unambiguous, maybe for you, but for what’s been shown, and the little bit we could see of what was not meant to be shown, there is a lot more to discuss than just how great the part works in a steady state corner - if you’re a reasonable guy you should understand the legitimacy of the request to lift the curtain up.

Yall hold on minute....I want to post somethings that need to be addressed right now and may take a min....and don't need any interruptions..

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Firstly, I don't owe you anything, I'm not beholden to your requests or timeline and my actions re the data will not determine whether I'm a sensible or reasonable guy. I'm not hiding anything, but you may want to reconsider your data request style. Framing this as some vast conspiracy to scam people into purchasing an ineffective widget isn't doing you any favours. I'm a paying customer (full price with initial run, fwiw) and I was happy to help out Skip with some feedback with some race data as I'm appreciative of his efforts to increase the reliability of this platform. I don't make a dime off of these sumps and could care less whether you use one or not. I've used the stock, FVD, Mantis and UIDS sumps in race conditions and will continue to use the UIDS based upon my data.

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I think we are in agreement on more than not...risk tolerance and lack of evidence is where we diverge. Good talk.

Quotes source post: 18395881

Thanks - got it. Sorry you don�t like my style, I�m asking for data, you don�t want to post it� yes, that frames my opinion of you.

The claims made by Zbomb that I have never admitted any imperfections in the UIDS is simply a lie... People said it couldn't be done, LOTS of people.. UIDS version 1.0 , 2.0 ....2.1 ..2.2, 3.0..3.1..3.2 all had imperfections that I spoke about right on here... Infact I posted about the imperfection in post #664 Hold on there is more..

Nevermined...Ill hold off on the rest..

Quotes source posts: 18395898, 18395327

Heres what I posted, read the bold. Now show me where else you said the released UIDS version that you were selling to people had pressure drops.

No..the data will not be released "***** nilly" to be ravaged by a bunch of hungry Tigers eiger to destroy......That was why you posted all YOUR data, and then demanded that I not use the same data to show the benifits of the UIDS

Quotes source posts: 18395924, 18391024

You can use any of my data you want. Just post full laps. Again, here’s what I actually posted.

Zbomb, I don't care what you said.....I care what I said... and everything I said is accurate... You are just pissed because I released the UIDS before YOU were ready....You work for a Secret National Defence contractor that has unlimited resources of taxpayer money to test and test untill perfection before releasing a destuctive device.... You car was all broken down when I needed you to test the UIDS...so get over it...and go work on the Chevy/Porsche

Ok Skip - too bad that’s what you’re going to put out there. You and I know the validity of that statement. ETA…Haha - I forgot, go back to your email from April 30 to May 7 if you want to re-remind yourself of how our conversation regarding testing actually went. Happy to post it if you want, or you can. For the rest of you - feel free to believe whatever you like - one of us has never had a financial stake in any of this. And as far as my profession, I’m a waiter at Applebees (that’s a joke).

And thanks Ben for stepping in with some clear Extreme Track first hand experiance...I had redacted your name from all the "Data" so that people would not bother you with questions...But I am very pleased that you are doing so....I don't always deal with the BS effectively..

Guys...can we lighten up a bit? I love a good debate as much as the next person, but this is kind of going off the rails a little bit.

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I like a good technical discussion, and the UIDS can bring in a LOT of technical aspects..But unfortunately it seems to never go that way..

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I have talked to Walt Fickle in the past about the UAOS being used in Spec Classes and his words were "We are open to anything that can bring more dependability to the engine and not be a power/performance advantage...".. I can't see how the UIDS orUAOS either would not be allowed...( infact I think several are already running )

Delete

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I am not sure I understand correctly what you mean by 'neutral yaw, lat g after corner exit'? I think you mean neutral as in zero yaw rate and zero lateral acceleration. Correct?

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Joke?? I don't think you should joke about National Security and taxpayer funding.

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That's correct.

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Yeah, it�s a joke. I�m not even remotely competent enough to land an Applebees waiter gig� Someday.

I was a waiter at Applebees in college. I struggled and eventually got fired. I should have been happy as a host and could have made it as a bus boy, but nooooo. I had to go after the big bucks.

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Was it your minimum pieces of flair?

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I don't think Applebees is in the same league as Chotchkie's.

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Not certain what everyone is seeing here. What I see is a pretty smooth green line thru the most dangerous section of Road America for an M96 engine. I've done over 1200 laps at Road America, and these are the areas I always worried about. Especially the damn carousel which is noted as section 12 on the graph. The second area I worried about was Canada corner into and through the right to left "swoosh" which is section 14 on the graph. Both green lines are comatose. Regarding two dips. It looks to me like the two dips come after the car has exited the turn when the car is moving in a straight line unlike the other cayman which has substantial dips in the turn. What first comes to mind is.. (1) what would the dip look like if Ben was running the UAOS with the oil at a quart over full. If the oil stability thread data is any indication, more oil helped to mitigate the dips in oil pressure drops. No reason to believe this wouldn't be the case with the UIDS. But sure, we won't know until it's been tested. (2) the second thing that comes to mind is how much the dip can be mitigated with the addition of one of the different baffles Skip mentioned he was working on. Keeping personality and style conflicts out of this, what I see is a pretty damn good solution that is taking shape in relation to what we have been historically running in our cars for two decades. Complain all you want, but we need to continue to encourage solutions, not discourage them. Thanks for your work Skip.

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Yes, I'm very much looking forward to testing the car with the UAOS which will permit a greater oil volume. With the Mantis sump, we running close to 9L of oil, but the UIDS has lowered that volume to 7.8L. This is with the E dipstick reading 2/3 to 3/4 full. Racing the M97 with the oil level at the full mark risks overloading the AOS. The Porsche motorsport AOS does a good job at managing, but the stock AOS was incredibly ineffective -- Huge smoke plumes during cornering before I swapped it out. Useless. Back to some of the evidence discussions. It's easy to flip the "not enough evidence" argument around and start with the fact that the M96/97 in stock form are completely un-track worthy. Nobody (and I mean nobody) would dare to race either of these engines stock as they're all but guaranteed to prematurely fail. The oil will aerate and starve, the AOS will overload, the engine will overheat, the PS fluid will boil and the rod bolts will stretch. Even the infamous IMS bearing is far less of a worry than these factors. PCA is aware and that's why they allow modifications even though it's a spec series. At the 2018 Road America race, no less than 3 SPC cayman M97s failed on track (mine one of them). So, with numerous post-mortems, we've solved most of these issues, but the oil delivery is the final hurdle to optimize engine health. Up to now, the deep Mantis sump was the best option but it certainly isn't perfect. M97 engines are still failing on track, and most of us schedule rebuilds every 2-3 seasons as preventative maintenance. This is primarily to replace the bearings and seals that wear prematurely due to suboptimal lubrication. With the UIDS, it appears that we are closer to optimizing the oil delivery during extreme conditions (temp, revs, Lat Gs). With the current design, there are no drops with acceleration, braking, corner entry or steady state mid-corner forces. The issue is the oil slosh on corner exit. Quick back and forth esses can also cause brief oil dips, too, again as the result of the oil slosh in the pan. Fortunately in these situations, the dips are transient and correct quickly. I'll be keeping in touch with Skip regarding comparative data with higher oil volume and the UAOS once I get back on track. Unfortunately, this will have to wait unit next season.

Wouldn't it have been nice if Porsche had updated/improved the sump more than just 2 times in the decade that they released the m96/97.?? ..The early sumps had exposed bolt heads that got caught on curbs and broke out a piece of the block. Many engines were replaced because of this...Then they updated with "recessed" bolt heads to solve this...... The only other update was the x51 baffle to "help" stabilize oil pressure.....(eyeroll) ..Porsche had a team of Engineers on payroll and had a decade to make updates/improved designs and only made 2 updates............. yet I get attacked if I need/want to make an update..... I "selected" this particular comparison for 3 reasons, It is the most demanding of ANY place any car will encounter..It shows the capabilities of the UIDS to handle Extreme high G-forces, and it shows the small dip that I knew would bring the trolls to the yard... The way you read that graph to see what is important is quite simple ,the black line is the base oil pressure/quality , any deviation below the line is from air...any deviation above the line is due to slight increases in "head pressure" to the oil pump... The further or more time below the black line the worse the quality of lubrication the engine is receiving..... As I have already mentioned the small dips seen in the green line is due to oil slosh coming "down" from a high G-force angle and I have a baffle design now to solve this that is being made by HH Technologies .. As many of you know I have been a problem solver all my life. I see a problem, then I analyse it/diagnose it , then I fix it...... Like I and others have mentioned, the UAOS Track Version with 1 qt more oil would probably fix this little drop seen here, but I want to fix it anyway and the extra 1 qt oil will just be icing on the cake...

I had a few people message me about the term I used in the above post ( "head pressure") so I thought I would just explain it here instead of privately encase others want to know.. Head pressure is a term used in pump Technology .... Here on earth everything around us has a force placed on it by gravity ( G) , even air , and is referred to as atmospheric pressure (ATM ) and equals 14.7 psi at sea level.. If you have a sump of oil and place a glass tube into the oil below the surface, then remove the atmospheric pressure (ATM) from inside the tube,( this is also referred to as lift, suction, vacuum,but is actually a reduction of pressure ATM/G) the oil will pushed up the glass tube a distance of about 34 feet, this distance (34ft) is reffered to as "head".. So with a starting head of 34ft , when looking at the m96 engine, the center of the oil pump is the center of the IMS shaft, which is only 1 inch above the oil level when the engine is not running, and 3.5-4.5 inches when the engine is running at 7k rpm.. So the 3.5-4.5 inches is the loss of head pressure from the 34ft so we have 33ft 8.5in to 33ft 7.5in of head while the engine is running at 7k rpm..and the small level changes has a small effect on base line oil pressure..but introduces no air... Also I have seen some people comment on the extra distance the twin tunnel ports add to the oil flow circuit..this distance is less than 6 inches per side...( the sump is 14 inches long ) This distance is horizontal so the only loss of head is from "friction" of the oil flow.. and take at look at any "dry sump system" you will see a long hose from the "tank" to the "pump" all will be more than the 6 inches of the Twin Tunnel Ports...some will be several feet depending on the location of the Tank, sometimes the tank is actually mounted inside the cabin.. So to correctly look at the UIDS, you will see about 33ft 7.5 in of "head" =about 14psi ATM/G + G-force of up to 1.5G ( equals up to about 22psi ) pushing the oil through the Tunnel Ports then up to the pump. instead of pushing away from the pick-up like in center mounted pick-ups.. The lateral G-force actually increases the head PSI to the pump on the UIDS design..Several people have reported seeing an increase in pressure on the factory gauge in turns. This increase in pressure will be seen on turns all the way up until the pressure reaches the by-pass valve setting...So this will not show on "race data" since the by-pass is usually already in function, but will show the increase on the street below 3500 RPM ...this is normal on the UIDS design..

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Is that a new game plan for the Steelers offense???

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Go Pickett!

Dang !! Seeing that I need to go to the head..( latrine) ...

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Had no other means to add a picture to a PM To Skip as it only allows links to a picture.

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If I am reading this correctly, this is why just having a standard deep sump that holds an extra 2 quarts doesn't make as big a difference. It's not just about the amount of oil the system holds, it's the level in the sump relative to the pump as well.

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Yes, 9-10qt is plenty of oil if it is handled properly... Another tip: always think in terms of "absolute pressures" and not "gauge pressures" when trying to evaluate or design something on an engine.. Gauge Pressures are 1 Bar (14.7psi) lower than Absolute Pressures..and in Absolute Pressures there is no vacuum...

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I have Pickens on my fantasy team� glad Tribisky is out. Unrelated to football, if one were to get a UIDS� does the system require a UAOS to benefit the UIDS� full potential?

Chunk I have my uaos installed my uids is going in next week my understanding is the extra pressure from uids can only benefit the uaos in combination pulse the extra oil in circulation there’s no downside

Joel, as Mike said, that's a pretty good bet. After what I saw with Ben's RA data at the carousel, kink, thunder alley, Canada corner and the left, right, left swish after, even with the UIDS being run low on oil with no UAOS, and being pushed hard by Ben who is fast to the point that he wins club races in a very competitive group, i am impressed by the performance of the UIDs. Once the testing begins with Ben adding the UAOS track, and the extra oil and the new baffle, it makes logical sense that there will be substantially further improvement in preventing oil starvation, oil pressure instability and engine failure. The final piece for the track is still oil cooling. LN continues to work on it. As we all know, they have been a little busy with their new business model. But they will have a solution. Bottom line is that I couldn't be happier with what's being developed for the M96.

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Yes, "as is" the UIDS will outperform the stock, Mantis, FVD, Hartech , or any other Sump extension/deep sump that I know of... After I have finished the new baffle and have delivered it to all who already have the UIDS I will do a "re-release"...and be open for more orders... Remember all others have one design for all Boxsters, 911's , and Caymans. Everyone knows and is common knowledge that these cars brake with 3x the force that they accelerate. The UIDS has two versions ( 911 and Boxster/Cayman) and the Twin Tunnel Ports are optimized for each model meaning the ports are off-set to the braking side for each model..None of the others do this, and the UIDS especially shines in lateral G-forces. Another way to answer your question is that the UAOS Track Version along with UIDS will be icing on the cake. ( all cakes need icing) ..even on the street if you turn the engine up to red-line. Also the new baffle will fix another design flaw in the m96/97 with this big hole in the top of the sump area.. These two big holes in the top of the sump allow oil to escape the sump in high G-forces lateral turns...The oil escaping thses holes will fill the area around the bottom part of the cylinders and has travel to the front or back of the engine to fall into the chain guide, then travel out to the scavenge pumps to be returned to the sump, or some will drain back through the holes back to the sump... The new baffle will have a simple robust floating valve that will simply float up and seal the hole, then go back to resting... In the 20 years the m96/97 has been out I have seen no one address this , ever, . I have read the novels that were written on the m96/7 and it has never been addressed...untill now....

Thanks for the explanation and it makes sense.

Thank you for ongoing customer support, pretty amazing!

Patiently waiting for the re-release. Pleased to hear there are still plans to bring this to market. This topic is quite heated so I am happy to hear it isn�t going to be scrapped to save what little bit of sanity you must be hanging onto. I also hope it eventually meets your seemingly high standards. Clearly this is a tough nut to crack and there is going to have to be a �good enough� moment. Hopefully the baffle gets you there. Personally the UAOS track version already in use. My mechanic, who mainly works on really expensive and rare private collection of air cooled race cars and does deep pocketed air cooled builds, was complimentary of the UAOS design. The UIDS would make a nice compliment and upgrade from what I am currently running. Just a meager street car but having had the engine with x51 deep sump and Accusump fail on the street I�m eager to see where this goes. It makes sense in my head even if it doesn�t please everyone and make the flawed engine design as bulletproof as a dry sump. This should end up being over engineered for my street car but maybe some day I will even feel comfortable enough to take it to a track day.

Honestly pretty terrible how emotional and insulting this thread is. Newcomer, outside looking in: Here�s a guy developing products for a 20 year old platform and despite some known and unknown successes getting attacked left and right. Just makes me shake my head at how self-deprecating this behavior is to every 996 owner out there. hoping that the nerves remain strong and Porschetech3 continues putting his best foot forward, despite all the behaviorally challenged internet trolls.

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Just curious if I am a member of the behaviorally challenged internet troll club ?

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of course you are...anyone who asks questions or for clarification. on this technical marketing forum on statements that appear to be contrary to the data presented is a "troll".

WOW peace and love boys

I just came back for a confirmation from @Tr4ckD4ys , I never considered myself a troll but I sure felt as his comment was directed at me, so just looking for a clarification then I will be on my merry way.

There is a big difference between asking questions as opposed to demanding answers, all accompanied by gobs of perfectly displayed documentation, that fits one's preconceived paradigm...Just my humble opinion.

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Have to admit I don't understand when asking for clarification and details, on what has otherwise been very interesting, although partial data, became "trolling". It's more data than most other commercial products, and providing any of it should really be commended. But only partial data does beget more legitimate questions. To be a bit melodramatic, the world has advanced technically and scientifically by asking, answering, and defending, with rigorous data, much harder questions then any asked here. However Porschetech3 and any other vendor, will decide for themselves how far they are willing to engage, and how much data evidence they want to provide to market their product. That will be enough for some and not for others. It doesn't mean that those who are looking for a stronger case are trolls. Cheers to everyone.

Yall are getting all "un-technical" again.. Zbomb :: Should Porsche have not released the m96/m97 engines untill they proved to you and showed "data" that satisfied you ? Has Avid shown you "data" on thier dry sump that you have purchased? Or any comparison to other dry sumps availible? On a track such as Road America?? HoustonTx ;; You have no interest in buying a UIDS, a UAOS, or a IMSS or anything similar You are a denier of the problems.. Have you asked such questions of Porsche themselves? How about any other Sump Supplier? Are you just happy with the stock sump??? Have you asked any other supplier if there data was, shifted? inverted? Timing off? logging error?? Yes, Trolls who have no real interest in the product !! Just like the Crow Native American Indians, they judged their greatness by the greatness of their enemies........and you don't care who you **** off because you have to skin in it.... And I doubt you will answer all the above questions....

Skip - Here is what my sump manufacturer has done... And yes, I have seen data. Currently, it's what's is run on Katech Trans Am engines. I'm done pissing in your cheerios though, I've said my part - really just came back to see if I could add internet troll to my short lost of accomplishments. Wish you and your customers the best of luck ! 2016 Championships Joe Gibbs Racing and Daniel Suarez – NASCAR Xfinity Series Championship Using our dry sump oil pump KRE Race Engines and Triple Eight Race Engineering – V8 Supercar Championship Using our dry sump oil pump Earnhardt-Childress Racing Engines and Action Express – IMSA Weather Tech Daytona Prototype Championship Using our “Signature Series” billet dry sump oil system Robert Yates Racing Engines and Doug Coby – Nascar Whelen Modified Tour championship Nogrady Racing Engines and Kyle Hart – TORC Pro Light Championship Using our “Signature Series” billet dry sump oil system Nogrady Racing Engines and Jerett Brooks – Lucas Oil Off Road Racing Series Pro Lite Championship Using our “Signature Series” billet dry sump oil system Pat Musi Racing Engines and Ricky Smith – NHRA Pro Mod Championship Using our “SP Series” dry sump oil pump

Zbomb Where is the "data" !!!!!???? Where is the "full lap data" !!!!??? Why are you not posting the" full lap data"?!!!!!? Why don't you send the "data" to a third party to be anyalized !!!??? Where is the comparison to another leading competitor???? !!! Answer me now !!!!!

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Nothing is as powerfully dependable on the street and track as a K24 swap.

I retreat my behaviorally challenged comment. Making this comment was just as behaviorally challenged as the folks it was targeting. Apologies! I was just disappointed to see all the heated and not always rationally driven debate. I�m new to the platform and community and it just seemed so off beat that people fight so much in here. my point is just: data or no data, it�s good for the community that there are people developing tech. No matter if you support the product or not. You�d rather want a vibrant community of folks putting their time into these cars than not have that community at all. that being said, my comment was aimed at a generic camp of opinion on here not just a single person, but again, it was a stupid comment in light of the fact that everybody �fighting� on here is actually putting their time into this platform.

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Right,,lol .......another morphodite ..lol

Skip - I'm not selling anything. You are. I have not made any claims. You have. Lastly, all of the data I have collected has been made public or is available to be made public, you have even used some of it yourself - you're welcome. I'm sorry you have taken such offense of my questions, I really am. Like I said, I don't plan on asking you for any, anything going forward and wish you the best of luck. If you want to see my data, I plan to continue to send it to Paul for him to analyze so that hopefully, people find value in it, even if the choices I make do not achieve the intended result - I'm a big believer in the opportunity to learn from failure and am happy to give people a picture of what doesn't work for me if thats the way the cookie crumbles... Good luck man.

Glenn - what's your PB at RA, Mid O, Barber ?

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Jason, what's yours?

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Haven't run any of them yet - but I look forward to it, a lot. You guys have a great night

Like in life your not forced to buy it if anyone ask for data/info I applaud your right to ask but the manufacturer does or doesn’t give it then you can move on or buy in to it I personally believe this thread has expired it’s sell by date which is a shame i trust in Porschetech and his products porsche or any manufacturer themselves don’t open up about their cars to the public we bought the cars based on prior experiences or expectations

Zbomb, you have badgered me for months and cast a big shadow on my effort.......I am slow to anger and have stooped to a level I never thought I would to refute the efforts of your attacks.........And because I am slow to anger I am also slow to get over it... I do not need your data I only used to show how much better the UIDS is and the benefits because it have been so widely used to condemn the status-quo... Anyone with a $2500 AIM can get the same data....and become an internet RockStar .....if they choose the right enemies...and no, you are not sorry you offended, it was intentional.. Like you said, you need/want nothing else from me....you only needed when you though your engine may fail....you have a Chevy Power now..... I had actually thought the wolves were at bay... but here they come back....

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Oh really??? What class will you be running in???? Oh that's right they don't have a "morphodite class"....you will just be after "personal best"....

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Ehhh I have an ln bearing not sure how that's relevant though. You are wound up to tight to have an intelligent conversation. Good luck with your etsy shop.

I think every 3 days I need to just shout out "I hate morphodites !!" to see if I can get it out of my system.........

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Houtx996 Yea, I have stooped to asking irrelevant questions like you did ....... of which you didnt' answer.... Yea I know you finally broke down and and bought a LN bearing (but not the IMSS ) after denying the problem adamantly,, and then bitching about the warranty on the one you bought !! .. It's funny.... I rarely ever ask questions, I am always answering them..... but when I DO ask questions, they don't get answered......

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I don�t think PCA classes has anything to do with male or female orientation Skip� might want to use a different word� i mean I didn�t know they have a dual genitalia class in PCA racing.. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ does one car have a larger exhaust tip than others, or are the exhaust tips inverted? 😂

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It's nothing new......that's what they were called back-in-the-day.........Morphodites...lol Remember when NASCAR outlawed the Boss 429 ? and the 429 Hemi ? Even though the Chevy 454 was legal and couldn't match the power of the Boss 429 or 429 Hemi.. NASCAR oulawed them because Bill France was in bed with Chevy and the family still is ( lastest case in point Daytona Prototype rules...they kept changing the rules untill it favored the LS engine and disadvantaged the flat six, Porsche had to resort to the Cayenne V8 due to the rules .....France family) The NASCAR rules went to 355ci because it favored the small block chevy, ...........untill Bill Elliot ( with his brother Ernie Elliots engine design) was running 212mph at Talledega....Then the Frances put on restrictor plates to keep the chevys from getting smoked...again.... Then in drag racing anytime someone didn't have the "know-how" to be competative with a FoMoCo engine or Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth...or didn't want to spend the extra money on the good parts,,, they would just put in a small block chevy....and they were called Morphodites....lol I grew up around all the NASCAR guys and crew chiefs, the Allisons, Bonnets, Farmer , Elliots, Hamner , Wood Brothers.. ect..and owned one of Bob Gliddens cars.... So this is nothing new and doesn't surprise me...just 30-40 years later.....history has a way of repeating its self sometimes...lol

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I didn't bitch about the warranty I said it basically does not exist which is also a fact and really can't be debated. The same as your solution is moving the problem numbers don't lie unless you make them. I also did not break down I did it first....you Alabama boys really do operate in an alternate universe from facts and truth.

About time we get back to discussing the issues and solutions for the M96.

ad ho�mi�nem /ˌad ˈh�mənəm/ adjective (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. "vicious ad hominem attacks" adverb 1. in a way that is directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. "these points come from some of our best information sources, who realize they'll be attacked ad hominem" 2. in a way that relates to or is associated with a particular person. "the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

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"The Alabama Gang " of NASCAR fame from the 70's -80s was some bad*** M'fvckers !!! .. They would call me every once in a while to come to the Hueytown Shop to troubleshoot an engine because they knew I was Top Troubleshooter in the SouthEast for FoMoCo Dealerships and had set some IHRA world records . I could tell some stories about that. I would put Bob Glidden and Ernie Elliot as two of the top engine builders that ever lived.......Ernie Elliots 355ci Windsor motor was so much faster than the NASCAR competition that it was down 1 lap from a bad pitstop penalty that Bill not only caught and passed all the leaders of the Talladega 500 but he went all the around and passed them again at 212mph to make up the lap and take the lead all under green flag !! .......That's when NASCAR slapped the restrictor plates on them to keep Ernies engine from dominating ,....claiming to be making it safer, but we all know it did the opposite and made for nothing but last lap crashes ...Ernies engine had 19 to 1 compression ratio with a unique swirl combustion chamber/intake flow that made that possible... Bob Glidden was also a FoMoCo mechanic/Top Troubleshooter in district 4 ...his NHRA Pro Stock engine dominated the class for over a decade. So much faster that no matter how good a start his competitor had at half track, Bob would blow by them and pull away on the top end..He was the winningest driver/builder in Pro Stock history..I remember one time he crashed at almost 200mph and the car was destroyed, body ripped off ,engine was broken open. When Bob climbed out of the wreckage the first thing he did was take off his jacket and cover his engine. He didn't want anyone seeing inside his engine... I don't like talking about my past experiences "to prove a point" even though there are some big accomplishments there are also some big personal heartaches ..so it has to be in the right context for it to be enjoyable.. wdb ;; Everyone must remember that I do take something I design as personal/adhominem, ...........why shouldn't I ???? If I feel attacked personally, why should I not respond accordingly???? Houtx996::: The warranty on IMSB ( or anything else) is "offered" take it leave it or better yet.......buy something else/source/build it your self ( big boy pants) it's called "personal responsibility" try some....it's good for you... I'm glad to get back to discussing issues and solutions to 996 problems in a "technical manner"..there is much to talk about as we go forward..

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cool story your data tells a different one, but good incoherent babble nonetheless. Thanks for answering the question.

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It was a comment on the thread's recent direction in general. I got no dog in this fight. I like your products in fact.

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Hey Houtx996 ...Fvck you.. is that coherent enough to address your insinuations and not answering ANY of my questions to you??? Thanks man I know......I was using your comment too address the trolls ... Now...maybe we can get back to "technical solutions" ......

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No but this does.

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Right !!! Anyone with a sane mind that knew ANYTHING would say HELL YES ..THAT GREEN LINE IS 10X BETTER THAN THE DARK RED ONE....AT THE MOST DANGEROUS ROAD COURSE IN AMERICA.....ROAD AMERICA...... And I'm not done yet........

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ok seems like your cooling down a little and now capable of having logical conversation. So the inversion is from the oil sloshing and you believe the new baffles will solve this?

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There is no "inversion" ...no correlation I do not care to have a conversation with you..I despise your trolling attitude/method, it is the same as Slakker was doing in the UAOS thread.. Are you trolling on purpose??? Is that your MO ??? Do YOU think I can solve this dip ??

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Im not insuating anything it's on the graph. I do think you can solve that dip you clearly have in other places and I've stated that previously. I was interested in learning how or what is causing it to manifest in a different spot. I'm not trolling you thats all in your head. Your emotional intelligence is far to low for this conversation to continue. Best of luck on your product and it's development

Skip ignore the banters all they are doing is belittling your work I don�t t see another manufacturer trying to better a vintage car as much as you have just ignore them and continue your good work

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Thankx man, I try to ignore them but it truly is personal to me so I can't help it... If I have to get down in the mud and the blood then so be it... But their posts are always so full of twists, back handed remarks ,insinuations, or sometimes even agreement and flattery mixed in that they are hard to unwind.. A good technical discussion/debate will always start out simple and concise...then lead to deeper and deeper understanding.. This is all I got from all that BS trolling .. If he had said that to start with in stead of this... whats happening here? Why is it inversed from the comparison plot? similar inversion occurs towards the end. Is the timing off or data is accidently inversed, something else? Edit: If you shift that green plot to the left it seems to line up, across the data set, granted it's less extreme, but still present...seems like it could be a logging error. Then this one may have went differently....but as for the others..... Trolling - Urban Dictionary https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=Troll... Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly

That's some solid selective editing of my quote. One more marketer blocked. That's the type of person that would manipulate the data.

Quotes source post: 18406590

Ha !!! This is my "technical account"......My "marketing account" has the UIDS Logo on it..., you will KNOW when/if I go into marketing mode I think we should have "Rennlist Troll Certificates"...and vote.....I'm pretty sure you would win one....

We have plenty of trols here on rennlist. Its the law of averages. But no reason to slow progress towards finding the next generation of solutions for the m96. Keep pushing.

Quotes source posts: 18406260, 18406300, 18396914

I'm going to regret this... There's some seriously thin skin here. Skip, I love and appreciate your work here immensely (Own the UAOS), but maybe take a break to calm down? He was trying to bring the thread back on track with a technical/performance clarification question. Your current reaction: But if we go back, you could have just clarified an earlier comment, or pointed directly to it: Excellent. Question addressed. Everyone have a great day!

Good post, hopefully it helps calm the thread and get the tracks back under it.

To increase the momentum and improve the chances of keeping this thread on the matter at hand let me post my thoughts with regards to the observation that coming out of corners, i.e. lat.acc. decaying back to zero, there is a pressure drop. I believe it's a consequence of the 'corner inside facing' port having been drained of oil when building up the lateral acceleration turning into the latest corner. When lat.acc goes back to zero (iow the car straightens) the ball valve opens the (formerly) corner inside port but oil has not filled the port yet. Air will be entering the pump from this port and no longer the oil from the other port as air has lower viscosity than oil. Only after oil has flowed into this port too, oil instead of air will.enter the pump. However, looking at the video of v3.3 with sail baffle https://youtu.be/r7ig-VpxMwE I see that the oil moves quicker than the ***** and oil enters the port before the ball valve opens that port. But even so, I see a possibility that an air pocket is trapped in the space below the ball valve (as it sits slightly higher than the tunnel/port). This air pocket can go only one way and that is enter the pump thus causing the observed pressure drop. I see two possibilities to mitigate this risk of air pockets. 1. Put the ball at the entry of the port. That way oil is held inside the port as soon as lat.acc forces the ball to close that port. 2. Lower the ball valves to the bottom of the tunnel and get rid of the space where air can become trapped by oil rushing in from the side and below. This would reduce the risk but I don't think it would mitigate it entirely when a transition through 'the esses' happens quickly. Perhaps the air pocket is of such small volume that it doesnt explain the observed pressure drop (its duration to be precise) and it is actually oil bleeding out of the sump through the holes Skip pointed out earlier and his countermeasures against this prove effective against the observed pressure drops when the car straightens after a corner.

Bernard buddy, please go back and read what I said about the Bernoulli Principal and why I changed to a spool valve many many months ago..there are no ***** or ball valve, long gone.....

This may help for context explaining the sections on the AIM graph as it relates to the actual track. Section 9: after left from turn 6, car carries to right side of track followed with a left swoosh and then a right turn at turn 7. Section 10: downhill straight from turn 7 to turn 8. Green line drops slightly after turn 7 is completed and car is on straight. Section 11: turn 8 is a left turn into a very short straight that sets up for the carousel. Section 12: right turn into carousel (turn 9) then out of carousel (turn 10) into short straight and then slight right thru kink (turn 11) Section 13: dogleg left straight thru Thunder Alley to Canada corner. Section 14: right turn uphill at canada corner (turn 12) Section 15: left, right, left, right essess (turn 13) to turn 14. Section 16: right turn (turn 14) onto uphill front straight. Green line drops slightly after turn is completed and car is on front straight.

Quotes source post: 18408207

Ok I missed that, sorry. But even so I still see the possibility as I described since these valves are located A. At the pump end of the port upstream B. higher than the port.

Quotes source post: 18408266

No,, its just a violent slosh coming "down" from a 56 degree angle to level....I purposely put minimum baffling in the UIDS, and now it needs more baffling and a bit more sophisticated baffling than usual..( plus the float valve will keep oil level even higher.. a nice plus)

Will this be compatible with the UIDS? https://www.h2-engineering.co.uk/pro...gescavengepump

Quotes source post: 18416744

Yes it is compatible and would have no negative effects on the UIDS... ( only positive effects) .. But that product is quite a lot more labor involved to install. The valve cover has to be removed and some machine work done to it to complete the install...It has been shown to "help" in stabilizing oil pressure but is nowhere close a solution by its'self..

I have been asked to explain the difference between "gauge pressure" and "absolute pressure"....and how it relates to oil pressure and the UIDS design... Gauge pressures are what we commonly use and see around us, but it doesn't tell the whole story... Absolute pressures are used in laboratory settings, or in scientific work ,research, or design, and can get confused with gauge pressures if you don't know the difference.. Here is a picture showing two quality gauges, the left one reads in gauge pressure (PSIg) and the right one reads in absolute pressure ( PSIa).. Gauge pressure starts at Atmospheric pressure /1 unit of gravity ( 1G) and reads 0 PSIg Absolute pressure starts in outer space at 0 PSIa and reads 14.7 psia on Earth at Sea level...( 1G) ... Like in an example I mentioned in an earlier post, if you have a sump of liquid and place a glass tube in it below the surface and remove the air/Atmospheric pressure from the glass tube, the liquid will be pushed up the tube about 34 ft for water or since oil is slightly lighter than water it will be pushed up 40 ft...in pump technology this 40ft is called head pressure or "head"... The only thing stopping the oil from being pushed up out of the sump is the oil pump and/or any air/atmospheric pressure that has crept in ...Once the oil pump starts to turn and removes the air and is "primed" then oil is delivered to the pump at about 13.x psia pressure. or 39 ft x inches of head ..( you have to subtract the distant from oil level to pump inlet which in the case engine off is only about an inch.) Here is a diagram showing the oil level when engine is not running and oil level at 7k rpm. The red X is where the oil pump inlet is located .. and the red rectangles are the pick-ups for central pick-up and for Twin Tunnel Port UIDS.. So when running the oil is being pushed from the sump into the oil pump at about 13.x psia or "39 ft x inches of head" from about 1G vertical gravity force ( must subtract .2 psi for AOS function and a few inches for the distance from oil level to pump inlet).. And when in a Lateral turn of 1G the force is now INCREASED on the oil surface pushing the oil up to the pump and also the distance from oil level to pump inlet has DECREASED. due to lateral g changing the level to a 45* angle..So there is a 1G vertical and a 1G lateral force placed on the oil ... It should also be noted that at normal 1G gravity under atmospheric pressure that 1 cubic inch of oil weighs .03 LBS and as G-force raises, so does the weight of the oil..at 2G of force ...1 cubic inch of oil will weigh .06 lbs.... The increase in pressure going into the oil pump inlet will effect the oil pump outlet pressures, more so at the lower pressures than at the higher pressures and explains why some people with UIDS has reported seeing high pressures when in turns with UIDS.. Also when reading the factory gauge, or even the digital gauges used in the "data" collection, the "absolute pressure" is actually 1 bar higher than shown.. ie.. P_ absolute=P_ gauge+1 Bar

I don't have any data to post as of yet but I wanted to share my experience with you so far. My car has always read lower oiI pressure than what I've seen around here. The stock gauge shows 2.5 - 3.0 bar, up to temp at highway speed. Around corners and freeway transitions, I can get the gauge to drop down to 1.5bar. I'm sure my car has other underlying issues that will need to be addressed at some point. I installed my UIDS last weekend and under the same conditions, the gauge now reads 4.0 - 4.2 bar. Going straight, high speed corner, low speed corner, it doesn't matter. The pressure is stable and higher than what it was before. That's an immediate win for me. I took the car on a 600 miles road trip for a work convention and the pressure was great the whole time. At this point, I'm feeling pretty confident. I decided signing up for an autocross would be a great way to see if I can really upset the oil pressure. The autocross course last Sunday was about .65 miles long and consisted of long sweepers, decreasing radiuses, 2 slaloms, and a couple straight where you could bang limiter in 2nd or up shift to 3rd for 2 seconds. The times I could look down mid corner, the pressure was at 4.2 - 4.5 bar. Slaloms and drift transitions didn't seem to affect the reading on the gauge. Yes, I'm that jack a** that will drift at an autocross. The next step from here, for me anyways, is to take it on the track. As a driver, having confidence in your vehicle is an important factor in going fast. Most people go faster in cars that are easier to drive than cars in their fastest form. If the vehicle doesn't feel good or you have to constantly watch your gauges, you're not going to push the car. I can't wait to see how my 996 compares to all my BMW track cars I've owned in the past. It'll be fun to run some data acquisition and compare the results to the data I've collected from my BMWs. It's essentially like racing yourself in different cars. I'm thankful the UIDs exists because my relationship with my 996 has completely changed. Previously, it was like being married to a 10 and never sleeping with your wife. I like going fast and now I can unapologetically drive it hard. So with that said, there is no buyers remorse here. I look forward to updating you all after my next track day.

Thanks for your first impressions Geoff, I know the feeling your talking about.... I got that feeling way back when I was posting the videos of doing figure 8's in a big parking lot and doing mad dashes down "Toes of the Dragon" with "real live analogue pressure gauge" tapped to the windshield and my phone on record, and was even running over a quart low on oil purposely... No matter how hard I tried even over a quart low I could not get even a little bobble out of the oil pressure...That gave me the warm fuzzies that has only increased every time I drive ...yes I have a whole new outlook/feeling on the 996/m96 ....and it feels good.. It took someone else in a purpose built car in Extreme Track Competition to show me where I could make improvements... Once that is done I will be looking for even more Extreme Environment , if it can be found....

Similar experience with respect to oil pressure under more normal driving conditions as Geoff.T here. Glad to see others are seeing improvements on AND off the track. Looking forward to future updates to the UIDS!

I just want to be able to buy one! Congrats to those that were able to. Awesome to hear the positive thoughts and feedback.

Quotes source post: 18429524

Great to hear, but how can the UIDS affect the oil pressure when going at constant speed in a straight line? I must be missing something simple.

Quotes source post: 18435069

No, I don't think you missed anything simple I just think you were not reading and looking for "benefits" ....( several others have done that also) If you are only looking for effects on oil pressure/stability when going at constant speed in a straight line, then virtually anything that keeps oil from falling out of the bottom of the engine will do.... But if you intend to do a LOT more than that ??????

Any progress / updates?

Yes progress continues on the UIDS everyday albeit slowly at times . There were some health issues that slowed progress . I good friend a fellow Porsche enthusiast Randy has been doing the drafting on the updated baffle.. I have known Randy for over 10 years when he first bought his 1999 996 Cab and brought it in to the dealership for Post purchase inspection.....His clean 996 checked out wonderfully and he was very enthusiastic about the car. I suggested he join the local PCA Club and we quickly became friends and doing PCA DE events at Barber and PCA driving tours , IE "Polar Bear Run" "Cheaha Mountain Run" ect....He became more involved in the Club and started organizing the driving Tours and him an I scouted out the " Tail of the Dragon Run" ..7 years ago.. We organized a three day stay at Tapaco Lodge for 20 rooms for the local PCA Club and three days of events ie, driving trips, lunches, Social Parties ect.. It was so successful it is now a yearly event for our local Club every October.. 35k miles ago we did a rebuild/upgrade 3.4 to 3.8 , LN Nickies, Carrilo Rods, JE Pistons , LN IMSB ect.. Randy was working for HH Technologies and in charge of all Walmart accounts for the Garden Center Projects on new stores for the automatic roll up doors..He had caught a rare lung disease from Exotic birds he was raising ( Tucans ect) that had worsened until he was on oxygen full time and on the lung transplant list.. He was lucky enough to receive a pair 30yo lungs but the recovery was difficult in healing of the esophagus and took 2 years to fully recover..But he finally made a full recovery..and has been good for 2 years .. But while working on the drafting of the baffles he got a lung infection and was hospitalized. A lung infection is very dangerous for him...Any way he recovered from that and finished the drafting after I had made a few corrections and now it is with MetalCraft to be made . MetalCraft will make the baffles from .063 aluminum and laser cut the perforations/pattern. The lower 2" of perforations will have Viton Rubber one-way flaps while the upper "V" perforations will be cross-flow ...The baffle will also incorporate the "Viton Float valve" to seal the 30mm hole in the top of the sump when G-force reaches above 1.5G . The baffle will have rubber seals down the sides to seal and secure that are riveted on . It will come with a metal gauge to set the depth of the baffle for a .010 clearance along the bottom of the baffle for clearance to the floor/Twin Tunnels... One bolt install per baffle and easy setting with metal gauge... The goal of the Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump has always been to create a system that will outperform the Mezger Dry Sump System in very possible way. It already can equal or surpass the MDS in most ways as already been shown, ( the MDS can't maintain oil pressure completely on it's side, where as the UIDS can) , this highly technical/sophisticated yet robust simple looking baffle can make that happen... Rome wasn't built in a day and good things come to those who wait...

Jumping into this thread without reading the whole thing, sorry. Is this product available, and what's it cost? I'm running an LN deep-sump oil pan with the 997 squirters, and it's better than stock, but not a bulletproof fix.

What are 997 squirters?

It�s what 997 cars does to girls

Quotes source post: 18556291

I think he means the 997 M97 oil return lines. (They replace the 996 swirl pots) https://lnengineering.com/products/p...turn-tube.html

Quotes source post: 18556303

Yup, sorry, it's been a while since I installed it so I forgot exactly what the upgraded parts were.

Yep, it's like pushing rocks up hill! This is the risk with small companies. Keep working it. Spinal nerve stuff is ZERO fun. Both of my brothers have inherited spinal stenosis. 2 operations for one, 1 for the other. Both are trying to manage pain relief with CBD products to stay away from the addictive stuff. Thankfully I dodged the genetic code that creates the problem. My best wishes to Daniel for a complete recovery. There is no rushing this issue.

Quotes source post: 18558340

No Kidding !! Thats why I enjoyed just being a Tech for over 45 years. Just diagnosing and fixing cars/engines all day every day...Didn't need to worry about anybody for anything as long as I had my health ( and family/kids).. I had a Sciatic nerve pain that sent me in an Ambulance to the ER about a year ago....It just all of a suden started shooting knife stabing pain I though was an Ependix attack or something..Tunrned out to be a muscle/nerve spasm... Now I know what Jake means by "dealing with Human Beings" ...lol

To get this thread back on track ....I will restate what this thread is about.... It's about an Invention that will produce the same effects as a "Dry Sump System" ( Specifically Daileys) in a 996 without ;;; 1 ...having a tank that Is mounted 10 feet away 2... has 50ft of lines and numerous connections 3 ..has an exposed "rubber belt" to drive the oil pump... 4 ...doesn't cost $6K The UIDS already proves better in lateral G than the Mezger Dry Sump and with the updates will equal the performance of any dry sump on the market without the deficiencies of the dry sump....There is quite a few reasons Dry Sumps are not used in most production cars....

UPDATE:: Good News !! Daniels pain miraculously receded overnight and he was able to return to work yesturday with only an Asperin every 4 hours.. Thanks to those who sent well wishes... Daniel was able to do a repair on the Laser cutting tool and get the Bank 1 Baffle cut and fitted.... All this drafting and computer CAD CAM and Laser tool take a lot longer than when I was younger and did things "old School" by hand. I could have hand built/fit them much quicker but the new way of doings things is better in the long run when doing more than just 1.... So progress continues and seems the Porsche Gods approve??

Awesome news to hear, looking forward to it! Keep us posted

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Great news Skip. I don't get much time to check this thread, or anything on this forum, but glad to hear some good news. I am still in for one when able. Thank you.

Quotes source posts: 18567398, 18567844

Thanks guys !! You guys and the other m96/7 owners and the m96/7 engine it's self is the reason I Invent and develope this stuff.. In other NEWS :::: I have in my hand a brand new AIM MXS to be used to compare/gather data on all the other sumps availible for the M96/7 engines, ie. the Hartech, FVD, Brey Krouse, TRS , X51 , Tarett ,LN/BRS , Mantis ( of course we already have data proof the UIDS outperforms Mantis ) .... So if anyone has one of these sumps we can do a before/after direct comparison on the same day/same weekend since the UIDS is so easy to install.. It will be a "Loner Program" so to speak... The MXS will be as plug-n-play as possible with a plug in for OBDII info, a plug in GPS, a dedicated line for oil temperature that will screw into the UIDS port provided, a dedicated line for the AIM oil pressure Sensor with the correct 14mm adaptor fitting to screw driectly into the oil pressure port in the head, using a mount to the dash using the excellent Rennclassic phone mount that attches to the Hazard Switch..( Sorry Yaz, I hope it can hold it)...The MXS weighs 1lb10oz ..my phone weighs 1/2 lb so roughly the MXS weighs 3 times what my phone with phone mount weighs..May need to beef up the mount a little but no biggie...the goal is to be portable and quick hook-up / un-hook ...... AIM oil pressure Sensor with correct adaptor to screw directly into the m96/7 oil pressure port .. AIM oil temperature Sensor m10x1.0 that will screw directly into the UIDS port that is provided in all UIDS Sumps..

Wow! Can't wait to see some data from all that. Well done.