OT: What car should I buy - thats not a p-car :(

Hey all, Long time since I posted here.. Sold my uncles 00 996. So Im still trying to decide what kind of car I should buy... Im looking around the 30k range new or really close to new... Small potatas (yep say it like i wrote it!) to you guys but never the less Im asking here. I LOVE the 996 but just cant afford the maitenance of it at this moment. Im graduating in May and Ill go crazy if I dont get rid of this damn truck. I strongly prefer AWD.. Heres the cars Ive looked at: -VW R32 - really love the idea of this car but it is still a golf and the haldex AWD system only gives 50% to the rear... -RX8 - This car was a blast to drive - handling was great, but I felt trapped in the high window sills. RWD but I thought maybe I could live with it... -S60R - bit more than I wanted to spend but the car just felt too big to me anyway... -S40 T5 AWD 6mt - Felt like a good size - but the power just wasnt really there to me... Also has the same AWD system as the R32 -05 Legacy GT - for those who dont know - this thing is a detund version of the Sti - has 250hp/250tq from the factory. Mods easily put it to 300/300 crank for ~1k. Cheap car to buy even loaded. However, its a big car at 186" long, would NEED new tires and upgraded suspension.. Has a good full time AWD system tested and proven... -STi - still a bit over what I want to spend - with options - but the car has the power and handling Id like - but the styling leaves a bit to be desired as does the interior... At any rate let me know what you all think... Other suggestions greatly appreciated. Not interrested in a TT... Dont really want a sedan but I do need a back seat and most of the AWD cars out there now are sedans gack... Thanks in advance for answering my odd off topic question Jeff

Easily modifiable and pretty quick right out of the box - there are some very clean, solid cars around for low 20's. Because these cars were easily chipped, be sure to get a reliable PPI or see of there is a CPO warrantly available. Good luck - your choices are all great alternatives....

FWIW, he said he wanted something that would be cheap to maintain We've had 2 b5 s4s. Although they can last with preventative maintenance, the $7k+ turbo replacement was a time bomb I didn't want to deal with. Re: your list: - My brother in law bought an R32. Wickedly cool little car. Very very fun to drive, and a whole level above the other mk4 GTIs - I'd give serious consideration to an Acura TSX. Fun to drive, high quality, reliable. - I had a WRX, and have spent time in an STI. If you value anything over raw performance (like build quality, interior fitment, refinement, etc.), spend serious time in this car before plunking down your $$. They are amazing performance cars, but can't shake the stink of their impreza roots. There's a good reason Subaru doesn't sell any base imprezas, they're a ****ty little econobox

Yea from what Ive heard its only a matter of time before the turbo blows on those S4s... And when it does - its like a week to swap the turbo bc the engine has to be pulled if I recall correctly... So thats out Otherwise I definetely would buy one - it is a fun car to drive with the quality I like. On a used car note - even though I do not like FWD I test drove a saab viggen convertible and that was a very fun car to drive - 3rd gear it pulled like a freight train - but alas tq steer sucks So thats out too! Thanks Jeff

you need to drive the R32 i picked one up a few months ago and have been very happy. they are almost gone though. you got to move quick if you are interested. trust me it is no golf

VW Lupo Diesel

I have driven an R32 actually. Ive driven every car on my list except the STi because the dealer here in boulder is being stingey - doenst understand Im actually serious... R32 was a blast but its not an easy car to fit someone in the back of - the konig seats make it rather hard.... Jeff

You can't go wrong with the WRX the Sti styling is a bit to boy racer but the wrx is just fine roomy awd and goes like hell. Had one for 3 years, but a chip in to raise boost to 16.5 drove it hard, did mobil 1 every 5k and had not one problem or repair.

I thought the R32 was the best everyday car. It looks like a golf but drives like a better 964C4. Quality and finish were excellent, but it will soon look dated as the new body style makes it here. The STI therefore becomes the best choice, but more than the power upgrade, it needs something to diminish the understeer. If you drive one, take a downhill right hander and you'll see what I mean. The Evo 8 is more fun to drive, but it probably requires the new 5K upgrade to be a daily driver. Absolutely in your range is a new 350Z with no options. If you don't need 4wd and trunk space, its a winner. I was offered several 04's at about $27,000 I wouldn't touch the RX8. It's completely torqueless, odd looking, burns oil, and overpriced when the options are added in. I think that car will depreciate like a Yugo. Mini Cooper S, needs snows depedning on where yu live, is also a compromise car. In conclusion, STI, take off the wing and buy a real big rear anti sway bar. I think they will be negotiating soon as there is competition in the price range (like Infiniti G35 AWD) AS

I loved my S4, but like you said its a time bomb. However, once you swap out the stock K03's for the rs4 K04's, I think you will see that turbo failure is less. When I have a house with a garage, I am buying another one and doing the full rs4 conversion. If you get one, I have an MTM stage one chip you can have cheap.

350Z would be interresting except it does not have a back seat which is fairly important to me. The STi without the spoiler of course would be a fun car. One thing it is missing and you can NOT get on it is a sunroof - fairly important to me as I grew up in a house hold where hard top was as bad as a 4 letter word - my dad only drives roadsters - since Im an only child and hes divorced its just me and the dog 2 a 2 seater is fine But for me I need a back seat as I usually have people with me and will have clients with me at some point I am sure. I like flexibility I suppose. The reason I am/was considering the new legacy GT is bc it can be made to be linearly as fast if not faster than the STi for less money. Plus it has leather sunroof and some other near luxo options - maybe even nav for 06 - not that I really care... I have not driven one with handling mods so I cant comment on the handling when upgraded but stock felt a bit floaty but not awful - then again Im driving an SUV so anything feels tighter than this chevy lol. Is the understeer that bad on the STi? Id think with such a great AWD system it would have great handling characteristics... Thanks for all the opinions! Its hard to find unbiased opinions lol Jeff

I bought an R32 a couple of months ago as my winter driver. The car is an absolute blast to drive. The exhaust note above 40mph and 3000 rpms is addictive (a flapper automatically opens up similar to the PSE). The seats are as good or better than my 40th Anniversary. The steering wheel is excellent (smaller and fatter than the 996's). Handling can't compare to the P-car, but a set of coilovers will help. I got mine back in November for 3k off list. I suggest you run, not walk to your nearest dealer and get one of these gems before they are all gone. My 2 cents. Hope it helps. Matt

Have any of you driven the legacy gt at all - the new one that is? Im just curious for opinions R32 is still always on my mind tho - just not sure if there will be any left! Not sure I can live with the aging look, and tight back seat... However, Ive done it before I can do it again Jeff

The legacy has gotten great write ups I haven't driven it. From what I remeber reading the #s were right around the regular WRX. That's pretty good for a larger, more luxurious sedan which IMHO is better styled that the WRX or STI

I would wait for the new BMW 3 series in a month or two.

New BMW 3 series will defientely be more than 30k.... The power in the legacy is quite a bit higher than the regular WRX.. WRX is like 227hp and is only a 2.0L engine. The Legacy is 250/250 and is the same 2.5L as in the STi - with minor differences.... Jeff

Jeff: I'll be honest with you. My wife's drive is a 9-5 Saab Aero, and I must tell you that it actually is a blast to drive. With 250hp and 258 lbft, it is torquey, fast and lightweight. You don't get much of the torque steer, since the traction control compensates for it. We went with the wagon which has stiffer springs on the rear. I've done auto-x-ing with it, canyon carving, and long trips with the family, and I'm very happy with it. They are nicely equipped and take a big depreciation on the first couple years, so you can get an almost brand new car with low miles at a great price. Cheers.

If I were getting a Saab it would definetely be a Viggen of some sort - I love the looks personally. But FWD is just a no no for me... Just not my thing anymore - cant explain it really. Try a viggen with the tc turned of hehe the tq is so strong itll pull you across lanes almost - very tqy FWD car Jeff

I bought a new 05 'standard' Evo and my wfe and I are putting about 1000 miles a month on the car. I wanted AWD, and it came down too the STi or Evo for me. I preferred the handling of the Evo, although the car *is* stiff. I find the car too be quite entertaining, but if you are looking for comfort, I suggest something with a softer ride and more amenities. Jim

No worries Jeff... I understand... Just needed to keep you away from the Legacy & I had to throw my 2 pennies. The hp/torque numbers may appear good in paper, but that thing is no way near a fun/spirited drive.

I love the interiors on saabs - for a winter beater one year I had a 9000. Truly luxurious leather seats - some of the thickest leather Ive seen. However, I feel the actually performance - or rather the way the car uses the perfomance - is not as great as the Legacy. Legacy really has excellent power. Just personally I dont like the way FWD cars are. But if I were buying FWD it would be a viggen Jeff

out of interest - how does the TC compensate? i can't work out how...? i had an alfa 164 FWD 3.0 v6 (glorious engine) but 220 HP induced a LOT of TQ steer....

I thought the Saab and Malibu shared the same GM platform. I'm pretty sure the Malibu does away with torque steer thru electronically assisted steering. When I drove that car, I couldn't tell it was a front driver. Doesn't have much steering "feel" though. AS

OUCH I knew the new Saab SUV is a trailblazer in disguise.. but their sedans?

P-Car: I should clarify that the torque steer on late model 9-5's is almost null compared to that of a 9-3 Viggen. Whatever is left is easily controlled. Technical definition of torque steer describes symptoms of unequal length drive shafts. So, on the 9-5 "technically" there should be no torque steer. However torque steer sometimes occurs when one front wheel has more traction than the other front wheel. Because of transverse mounting, right front wheel supports a little more weight than left front wheel. And it is under this loss-of-traction condition where the TC plays a role for compensating TS. And yes Alex is right, the Saab 9-3 is built on GM's Epsilon platform, which also unperpins the current Malibu and Opel/Vauxhaull Vectra. It sure is a sad state of affairs for Saab enthusiasts. The current 9-5 may be the last truly Saab engineered Saab. And yes the Saab 9-7x SUV is a freaking Trailblazer in disguise. But wait for the Saab 9-6X, based on the utterly hideous Subaru B9X http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101499 Now that's what I call beating a dead horse! YIKES!!! Oh BTW P-Car fanatic's old Alfa 164 shared the Saab 9000/Fiat Chroma/Alfa 164/Lancia Thema co-develped platform. Way before the GM influence.

RX8 or What of the G35 Coupe - my firend has one, for the money - what a car -

I think a good car would be an Audi A4 3.0 Sport. I had a 2002 model with a 6 speed, sport suspension, all leather, etc. and it was a great car. It's not a P-car mind you, but it's got a great ride and super finish. By the way, Audi stands behind their product, they have great service, and a super warranty package as standard.

Well I actually got a subby dealer to let me take out an STi.. And boy did he Let me take it up to about 120 on a back road. Wonderful car. I personally dont see why people think its crazy stiff - felt proper to me. Power is great as well. I dont even mind the interior too much AND the dealer said for ~1800 they can install the sunroof thats in the WRX. Fine by me. Sunroof is somewhat important to me - having grown up on convertibles I need some light.. Now to figure out insurance and if I can really afford that car Jeff

Exercise caution when installing an aftermarket sunroof. You run the significant risk of lowering the car's resale value cutting a hole in the roof of a perfectly good STI

thanks for explaining it for me, i had only really experienced the phenomenon rather than understood the reasoning behind it... at the same time I had my alfa, my friend had a Lancia thema turbo - same engine as the delta integrale - big fun italian mafia car!

Yea Im sure puttin a sunroof in may lower the value to some hard core enthusiasts - but others like me who want to enjoy the car may enjoy the small piece of glass above em Not sure thats the car I want but man is it an angry car Fun. Jeff

You might as well buy a Lada, because your going to be driving a normal average car and not a Porsche. Heres your new forum www.forum.ladacars.com You are the weakest link. Goodbye

thats very harsh the guy has not even graduated from university and your basically telling him he should give up now p-cars in the USA do not have quite the same chachet and snobbiness that they do in the UK - i bought my 996 with low miles and fully loaded for the equivilent of just less than 20,000 pounds - the same car in the UK is listing for double that insurance/servicing/parts/petrol are all cheaper in the usa and therfore the porsche marque is open to a lot more people compared to the Uk where you basically have to be loaded to own a modern 911. i think your attitude in pretty crap especially considering a) you drive an automatic 911 b) you use the streets as a track - many people here, although I am sure they drive it 'spiritedly' actually go to the track rather than indulding in michael schumacher antics on the M1 If i've taken you remarks too seriously then please accept my apologies...

I have a 04 Audi S4 and the car so far is great.

G35 is my vote. Sure the back seats are small, but the 350Z shares the *same* mission as a 996. I describe my Z as 80% of that total 911 *package* at 1/3 the price. You can surely get a 6MT 05 G35 coupe for $32K. a smooth torquey 300HP in a well accomplished chassis. Tons of mods are available since it shares the VQ V6 w/ the Z. down the road... 3 aftermakt TT options $6-10K = 80-120HP 4 Supercharges ~$5k = 80HP go for the G and stop this legacy crap. theres a price we pay for style no? Otherwise drive your truck and shut up! jk!

Hmmm I'd say the z is more along the 'mission' lines of the boxster coupe that is coming out and i think a more accurate description would be that the 350 offers 80% of the performance package that a 911 does - not 80% of the total package I also personally would never describe the Z engine as 'smooth' - in fact its rough, and the interior plastics look like they've been fabricated out of recycled trash cans cost always comes into it, but i get really annoyed when road and track compare corvettes/350z to the 911 and the 911 gets slated on cost by your rationale the kia optima provides 80% of the total package of a bmw 325... IMO p-cars shouldn't be viewed as a more expensive 'vette, but as a higher-quality, more usable, lower cost, more reliable alternative to F-cars, maseratis, aston martins etc to the OP - for your price range i would personally get a 2 or 3 year old bmw 325/330 CI and finance it over three years - if you can't afford the payments then you are overstretching yourself and will be upside down on the loan within a few months then as your career progresses you can maybe upgrage to a used boxster coupe in 3 years and to a 911 after that this is what I did (boxster normal obviously) and it was a nice progression in performance and handling and has meant that i have not been severely screwed by by depreciation by purchasing new or fallen for the whole leasing crap just my $0.02

80% the performance, fine..interior is 60%, but the point is that the 911 mission is clearly not to be the best number cars, the best track car etc. but it combines several important attributes in a way that it really comes together in a very cohesive manner. I was looking at 996/997 for 4 months now, before I settled on a TT, so i do have some experience w/ the 996. PS The G35 has a nicer, but less sporty interior. You can choose to compare pcars to ferrari, but to imply that you cant compare them to corvettes is simply your opinion (which you stated!). Either way, we choose to compare anything w/ anything...choice/opinion is a great thing. Just buy what you want and post up pics!!!

R32 is hard to beat- also consider the MCS. We have one my wife drives most of the time and we love it. Have had it for almost two years and very reliable. Never said I'd buy an English car when the dealer was 160 miles away, but so far so good and it's actually a BMW so it's german by way of England...

Did you try the Legacy GT? I'm curious what you thought if you did. (That would be my first recommendation, by the way...even though I've not driven the new ones.)