List of Damage to P-car, when garaged for a long time

I am just wondering what is the complete list of damage to a P car, when it is stored and not driven for a long time, say several months, in an unheated garage. Maybe you guys can help me completing and/or correcting the list? 1. Flat spots on tires. 2. Hard spots on engine belts. 3. Hard spots in shocks. 4. Hard spots in rubber seals in doors and trunk. 5. Condensation and contamination in engine oil, break oil and Gas (full tank) 6. _Not sure about pistons and other moving parts in the engine, sitting in the exact same spot (create a line in cylinder wall?) 7. Battery must be in trickle charger, or it will discharge, sulfate and die. 8. Rust in the body (would this accelerate when stored under normal conditions, unheated garage?) 9.

My 924 was stored in a garage, under a cover by it's previous owner for close to 10 years...the rear main seal is dry-rotted and is leaking, and the cooling system was full of rust particles, and the radiator was almost completely clogged. Paint had oxidized a bit, but shined up with some buffing...the aluminum wheels had badly oxidized, and took a bit of polishing to get them back to being shiny again...the shocks were all bad (far too stiff, and would get stuck in place) and the torsion bar bushings had become crushed on both sides. Also, as far as engine problems...the water pump bearing failed immediately after the car put back to driving duties (probably due to all of the rust in the system) and valves and motors tend to get stuck/seized like the heater valve, AAV, wiper motor, washer motor, corroded fuse and relay contacts, etc... If you are going to store a car...make sure moisture is kept out, the car is covered, place the car on blocks/jackstands to take the weight off of the suspension, leave the doors closed, but not latched...and keep the garage heated/cooled. That's all that's coming to me at the moment lol.

Never store a car with suspension hanging for a extended period of time unless you want to destroy your shocks. If you must store a car this way, at least grease the hell out of the shock pistons to prevent rust. If your going to store it for longer than 4 - 6 months, I would fill the engine with conventional oil (15W50 or heavier) and run it til completely warm before putting it away. Change it out after storage. If you are not going to periodically start the engine, I would remove the battery and store it in a warm place. If you must cover your car in an unheated space, only use a fully breathable cover or rust will be rampid. Plastic or plastic coated covers are a no-no. Placing dry wood pieces in the engine compartment will help reduce moisture damage. Car should be parked on plastic sheets or similar non porous material. Depending on how damp the area is where the car will be stored, I would use a fogging oil on the engine, brakes and suspension componants. Also, add a fuel stabiilizer to the tank and run it through the engine for 15 minutes.

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Missed a big one - condensation in the exhaust. Metal oxidation from inside out.

Storing a car is a decision to trade one kind of damage or decay for another. You have to make that trade consciously, and not think that you're somehow defeating entropy. 1999Porsche911's last bit of advice is extremely important. After the car sits for long enough, any residual oil on pistons and valve gear drains back into the oil pan. Without fogging the cylinders, the first startup will have those pistons scraping rust off the cylinder walls... mmm-mmmm good.

I agree with all feedback. Regardless of what some say, Porsches are machines. And...machines are designed to run, not sit. C.

I'm not sure that it would happen within a couple of months, but storage sometimes weakens valve springs that remain compressed for a long period of time. Especially in higher reving engines, it can produce valve float at a lower rpm.

OK what's the point in trying to scare those of us that hibernate the cars for the winter. I for one will not expose the car to the salt, gravel and sand dumped by the ton onto our roads here in the winter. My Acura is caked with salt for almost 4 months solid regardless of the drive thru car washes and this residue seeps in everywhere. I wish that I lived where a lot of you live and could drive with the top down almost all year.....but I don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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I don't think anybody's trying to scare anybody. But I think it's fair to say that storing your car for the winter is a choice between two sets of problems, not a way to escape them.

To eliminate storage problems yet keep it off the road, start the engine every 2 -3 weeks and run it for at least 15 minutes longer than it takes the coolant temperature to reach 190F. Move the car back or forward so the tires rotate 180 degrees.

What about the negative effect to the driver....not being able to enjoy your Porsche for such an extended period? That's clearly depravation that cannot be measured.(I just drove 45 miles in the rain and some crud, because it hit 40 degrees this am and I needed to enjoy my ride).

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This was touched on a few threads ago. Obviously the best and most rewarding thing to do is drive it when ever you can. Unfortunately not all are able or whiling to do this for multiple reasons. The practice, though, of starting it JUST to warm it up is NOT good for the car (thanks to Rennlist members for advice on this). This is also clearly stated in the manual. So if you are starting it you should drive it for a while keeping the RPM's down until it is warmed up properly. Otherwise leave it alone In my case this winter has been awful and I have not had the chance to drive it since December As far as storage for just few month at a time per year, this IMO is not a big deal or destructive. Keep the tank full, battery tender and maybe some fresh oil in spring if not driven much.

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I've heard exactly the opposite - if you store it, don't start it unless you plan to drive it to operating temperature, since the method you suggest could create more condensation and problems than just leaving it quietly stored. Anyone have a definitive recommendation on this?

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I did not say anything that condradicted what you heard......did I?

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BUT!!! Doc did it to the Delorean and after over 50 years it was fine... Marty drove it back to the Past and then Back to the Future...

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That is very true, but do you remember what a rough ride Marty had?

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thats because there were no Road's.... DUH!!!

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I wonder what kind of oil he was using...

I recommend always starting the car and letting it run for 15 minutes at least every two weeks. Go through all of the electric funtions, run the heater, the ac, move the seats, roll down the windows, go through the gears and roll the car back and forth a couple of times in your garage. Letting it just sit with heavy oil and a trickle charger is not how you store a car. Aside from all the great points already menioned, your fuel pump can also freeze up, window regulators, heater blower seizes up, seat motors, and all that is big money. Gravity will dry those pistons faster than you think and that dry start will wear down the walls of your engine. The heat from running it will dry up any moisture in the engine area, oil, and exhaust system while allowing the oil filters to do their work, and if you own a tip like me, it allows the tranny filter to do it's thing. Circulation is key. When anything sits, coolant, engine oil, gear fluid, whatever, gravity always wins and you will pay the price. Your seal will degrade and develope expensive leaks. Oh, and I agree with the fuel stabilizer.

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Factory fill was 15W50 but many owners ran with 20W50.

I think all of you guys are pole vaulting over rat $h!t. I think the worst thing is just plain ol' dry engine parts. I dont think anything can prevent that, just the nature of hibernation. Dont think so? Ever store a crank or cam with grease on it? Even grease will fail over time. Grease will provide more protection than any oil can. Just a thought...........

So the Porsche engineers that wrote the manual are wrong. Hmmm..makes you wonder why they recommend NOT warming it up. For one thing, as I found out, the metal around the RMS does not warm up properly and this by itself can cause a leak. I will stick with the instructions from the manual and the advise of those who follow it.

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You mean the engineers who designed the wonderful RMS, or the ones who can't decide which oil to use, or maybe the engineers who designed the TT's transmission to pop out of 2nd gear periodically. Oh, I get it, you must have confidence in the engineers who improperly designed the clutch release lever or the pedal assembly, or the IMS bearing, or the oil protection tubes, or slipped sleeves, or the inadequate coolant resvoir, or the ignition switch, or designing an engine that is permitted to burn up to 9 gallons of oil every 15,000 miles, or any of the more than 100 defects explained in the Porsche issued TSB's? Yup, gotta have faith in the Porsche engineers. They really know their stuff.

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Well you certainly threw it all out there. Yes, Porsche has its fair share of failures an issues, sad but true. For every negative there seems to be a many more positives, to the point that no other car in the comparable market can offer what the 911's do. It could be fine for many to start the car and let it idle, but the risk of harm is there in doing so. Because the engineers did not get everything correct it does not mean that they don't know crap and the manuals recommendations should be ignored. Do so at your own risk, I will not try to outsmart them on this subject.

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The point I am trying to get accross is that it is not wise to follow someone's recommendation when common sense and/or experience suggests otherwise. What is the difference if you start your engine every 2 or 3 days or start it every 2 - 3 weeks? Both engines have moisture in them and both will be damaged over time if they are not brought up to operatng temperature.

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It is not so much about starting it but driving it right away after starting it. To let it sit and warm up without driving it right away is the bad practice in question and not recommended as per the manual/Porsche. This is centered around metallurgy, bringing up all the metal temps of the car evenly minimizing stress. Makes good sense to me.

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There is virtually no difference in the time it takes to fully warm up an engine at a high idle compared to driving it moderately at speed. That include ALL engine parts and casing. So, as far as the engine is concerned, it doesn't matter which way you warm it up. If you still have a problem with warming it up at idle, then drive the car once every 2 - 3 weeks. There are few places in the world that do not provide for a at least one fair day and good road conditions during that time period. I'll say it again: periodically starting and warming up your engine beyond operating temperature is much better for the longevity of the engine than is storing it without starting it for long periods of time. It doesn't matter whether this is done by driving or idling. The only exceptions to this is if it was prepared properly for storage (very involved) and stored in a climate controlled enviornment.

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After reading all the posts, I felt compelled to do just that - started and ran the car for around 20 minutes. It ran perfectly without problems. Moved the car to minimize flat spots. I've seen others say this is unnecessary while in storage, but it seems to me it makes sense to do so.

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See, that kind of rhetoric just loses me right there. For one thing, the ones that designed the car aren't necessarily the ones that choose suppliers for parts and do the production engineering and cost accounting. For another thing, I think that in any case where there's a lot of dispute, especially among strangers on the internet, the manual is a perfectly valid default. You can't impugn a source's credibility by citing every mistake you think it made, whether relevant to the issue at hand or not. Against that standard, nobody anywhere can be trusted about anything. We'll all end up having to pray to the supreme being for guidance on oil viscosities. I know I've asked this before, but why drive a car that you have such comprehensive disrespect for? It's kind of silly.

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You are correct that I believe that the cars Porsche produces today are of a lower quality from what they used to be and much lower than many of the cars you can buy today in many categories. However, my comments were not directed towards the quality of the car, but, since a poster basically stated that the engineers were infalable when it comes to Porsche design, I commented on the the actual DESIGN flaws that were engineered for the car. Was is not the engineers who speced 15W50 oil for the first 996's? Were they wrong to do so? Is it a design flaw that allows for the burning of up to 9 gallons of oil every 15,000 miles? Isn't the RMS a design flaw. The transmission pop out is a design flaw. The clutch actuator setup is a design flaw. The capacity of the cooling system is a design flaw. I can go on and on. And, FYI, all parts, bolts, seals, lube, etc are specified in great detail by engineers. Either the specs were wrong or the supplier did not build to spec. Either way, Porsche is responsible, are they not? Most of these design flaws have been acknowledged by Porsche by having the part(s) redesigned and new parts produced. Therefore, the fact is that Porsche engineers (as well as every other engneer) can and often do make mistakes and to follow their recommendation blindly can prove expensive.

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Read into it my post all you like. The fact is I advised to follow the manual guide lines on proper warm up, that is start and drive, no idling. Not that Porsche engineers are never wrong, never change anything, etc, etc... If they change their recommendations I will change with them. No need to call them out on everything that they have done wrong in the past. As a side note, I did talk to a P-car tech (a few weeks ago) who advised me against idle warm up in cold weather due to uneven warm up of some of the other components of the car, not just the engine. This is why more than likely my RMS leaked at times when I did so and totally stopped when I discontinued that practice. I am NOTsaying it will cause all RMS to do so. By the way, Porsche is not the only auto manufacturer that recommends against this practice. I am surprised you think P-car quality today is much lower than other cars in their category. If I thought that I would move on to another high end sports car, whatever that would be.

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for a length of time is rodent infestation. Mice can and will get into the car, build a nest, chew up stuff, wiring harnesses are favored, and generally just wreck havoc. I've seen a few Cayennes -- when I visited F-J Porsche in Fremont CA -- in the shop for new wiring harnesses due to rodent damage. The task is very involved and the bill steep, if insurance doesn't cover it. Sincerely, Macster.

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While the cylinders/rings/pistons can be dry of oil too these items do not experience nearly the load at start up time as do the camshaft lobe and lifter faces. Sincerely, Macster.

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extended periods of time. What can happen is if the engine sits long enough unused and if the oil has any compromise in corrosion resistence a spot of corrosion on a spring can develop that will lead to spring failure when the engine started again. Maybe not at first start, but at some point. At some point, letting the car sit vs. driving it just trades off degradation of the car due to exposure to the elements outside to degradation to the car due to exposure to the elements inside. These cars are well built and well designed for bad weather -- within reason -- heavy snow can of course cause them grief as with other low gorund clearance cars -- and can tolerate the winter weather just fine with some proper preparation (proper tires for one thing) and intelligent winter care. I grant you that paint and window pitting from grit on the roads in the snow belt can be a bit harsh but the window can be replaced if necessary and for me as long as the paint's ability to keep corrosion from occuring to the underlying (and so far unexposed metal) is not worth worrying about. I've driven my car in all kinds of weather. While its paint and glass have suffered some the car when cleaned up still looks good and the body and mechanicals have suffered no degradation from sitting that never happened and very little -- not even noticable to me -- degradation from the almost constant usage. Sincerely, Macster.

Thanks to every single one of you. There is a lot of accurate information here, and some not so. These are the times I wish I had studied Mechanical Engineering, instead of Electronics Engineering. My father was a Mechanical Engineer at GM, and I learned a lot from him, but he passed away a few years ago, and I miss getting his detailed explanations to my questions. One of the reasons I posted this thread was a conversation I recently had with a respectable and knowledgeable mechanic, that simply stated that there is no better way than to just drive the car, if not daily, at least weekly. He also just drove a collection of Ferraris from a local to change tires on all of them, and he described the "flap" sound these tires made from not being driven, and had flat spots. He also mentioned the floor in this collector's garage had some sort of cork material to prevent flat spots on tires, but it simply did not work; some of these Ferraris had very low miles, and were rarely driven- one of them over three years. I drove my C4S all last Winter, and until December this Winter, however this is the last time I store for the Winter. I will avoid snowy days in the highway, so that big trucks don't send a sand and salt storm on my hood, but once all is clear, I am driving it. As for salt, touch-less wash (Winter only) to lose the salt. Worse case scenario, Every 3 days one wash is around $70.00 or so per month, is reasonable, and out weighs the damage from long period storage. Last but not least, fun factor. Sooo, that's it for me; except for a few severe weather days, I am done with the garage queen thing: I am driving my Porsche.

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I'm just saying to this guy, if you're getting conflicting advice, default to the manual. It's good advice, even just based on probabilities. The manual is bound to be right more than half the time; bickering strangers on the internet, well... As for the rest of your post, I have to say that sometimes you make me think you must have been fired by Porsche at some point. I'm not going to get into a quality argument with you here; nobody is disputing that these cars exact a price in mechanical quirkiness for the pleasure they provide. If you don't think it's worth it, don't drive the car. As for them "admitting" their mistakes, well, it might surprise you to learn that all car companies are constantly updating their products, mid-series, even mid-year. This, alone, proves nothing about Porsche's supposed malicious incompetence. I repeat my question: Why do you drive one? The bashing is just a buzzkill and, as I say, makes me think you have an axe to grind.

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That is something I have never thought of but he is spot on. Different expansion rates of parts, maybe minimal but could affect parts over time with these short interval warm-ups. In Aviation, this is critical to engines and is handled by specific instructions.

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Who's bashing Porsche? Is talking about problems considered bashing? I also never stated that Porsche's mistakes were malicious. I also never said it was not worth it. I know how to properly care for my cars and simply do not have the problems with my Porsches that many others do. Part of that reason is that I do not follow many of the recommendations that Porsche has made. I have also read both my 99 996 and 04 GT3 manuals cover to cover and nowhere in those manuals does it comment on not starting your engine when in storage so I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Porsche has taken a position on this. No owner follows all the requirements and recommendations in the manual. That includes you. I wonder what powers you have that enable you to decide which of Porche's recommendations are correct and which are not, while, according to you, someone like me is incapable of having those same powers? The manual is bound to be right more than half the time; bickering strangers on the internet, well... Which half of recommendations in the manual are right and which one's are wrong?

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So much flawed logic, so little time... On your first point, nobody here has come even close to the persistent blanket condemnation of Porsche's engineering that you constantly cleave to, so, sorry. You're a basher. You don't need to accuse them of malice to qualify. Accusing Porsche of comprehensive incompetence in a forum full of guys that love their cars, that will do nicely. On your second point, that's correlation, not causation. I follow Porsche's recommendations religiously and also have no problems. This bit of logic, alone, is enough to impugn any other observational evidence you might ever offer. Or, if you like, I can sell you some of my elephant repellent. I use it daily, and have not seen a single pachyderm in my living room once, ever. On your third point, I don't know where to start, it's so loony. Everything on earth is imperfect in some way. Take the law, for example. Using your logic, you'd be fully Unabomber at this point, basis that courts have made some mistakes over the years and therefore are completely untrustworthy. Jeezus. Maintaining a car is much like anything else in life: the best you can do is get most of it right most of the time. Unless you have another consistently irrefutable source (and that ain't you, stranger), or you have a priori expertise yourself, sticking to the manufacturer's recommendations is the best way to do that. Because none of us have the 'powers' as you call them to consistently outguess Porsche and be right. To think otherwise is delusional. The pity of it is that there are times you say things that I can corroborate elsewhere and which make intuitive sense. But your overall negativity, your complete lack of affection for the car and its maker, and your bullheaded unwillingness to discuss this stuff - despite not having a scintilla of evidence to support your alternative points of view beyond "Because I say so" - cheapens your advice. Now that, my hating friend, is ironic, don't you think?

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I won't bother responding to your other points as they make no sense.. However, I will bet you the price of a new Porsche of your choice that you do not follow Porsche's recommendations religiously. Why do you make such stupid comments when you know they are not true and your postings on this forum prove that they are not? I'll let you continue debating this thread by yourself since it is more important to you to attack me than debate the issues.

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They make perfect sense. The logic is, in fact, flawless. Perhaps the problem is literacy. As for how I maintain my car, you don't have a clue about that, so this adds evidence to the hypothesis that you might be talking out of your rectum most of the time. As for attacking, again, I think we have a semantics problem. Calling me a stupid liar, that's an attack. Here's the thing: Your position is opposed to the status quo. That obligates you to prove your antithesis. In the years I've been on this board, I've never seen you cite one example of a real life situation (never mind actually provide proof) that supports your flat-earth bleatings. Not one oil related engine failure. Not one coolant related engine failure. No science to explain why you know more than anyone else about those things. Your credibility is zero. Maybe this is why Porsche fired you. It's getting dark, now. Maybe you should put your tin foil hat on.

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there are components more sensitive to this than others. Primarily, what one wants to avoid is quickly heating up the pistons, especially the piston crown (which is of course the portion of the piston that receives the heat from the combustion) too fast to avoid the possibility the piston will seize in the cylinder. It won't of course seize sufficiently to cause the engine to die/stall (well almost never under perhaps very exceptional circumstances that I don't think the Porsche engine will see) but cylinder wall, piston and ring damage can occur. In the most severe cases the seizure can be severe enough galling occurs -- the heat from the excessive friction creating tiny spots of molten metal on the cylinder wall and piston sides that in brief instances of time join and the separate. As soon as these molten and then solidified areas separate apart tiny pieces of metal are torn from the cylinder wall or the piston, sometimes both. This results in cylinder wall and piston side scoring which degrades cylinder/piston sealing and subjects the rings to higher temperatures because hot combustion gases now have a groove albeit tiny through which they can flow and get closer to maybe even contact the top ring more than they normally can do. In some cases if this scoring occurs between the ring grooves a tiny piece of metal can cause a ring to break. By idling the engine a moment or two after a cold start this gives the piston crowns and surrounding cylinder metal time to come up to temperature with as little difference as possible. They'll come up to temperature at different rates but the difference should be small enough that sufficient clearance will exist always. Remember the top of the cylinder is surrounded by coolant and this coolant, even if not flowing, can absorb a lot of heat. By driving a car away immediately after starting a cold engine, more fuel is being burned, more work is being done, more heat is being generated and thus these engine components warm up faster and can warm up at even much different rates. While letting a cold engine idle until fully warm (or even barely tepid) is not of course necessary driving away with a dead cold engine is not without some peril. There have been reports of other vehicles, other engines suffering some sort of mild seizure after a few minutes of driving after a cold start from the sudden opening of the thermostat which allows extremely cold coolant to flow through the engine and this can cause cylinder shrinkage to the the point the very tight clearances present between the cylinder and piston (now quite warm) diminish to the point the two lock up. The possibility of this happening can be compounded by automakers seeking to run lighter oils (to help CAFE numbers) which require smaller clearances between cylinder walls and pistons. Tighter clearances have another advantate in that they work to minimize blowby and thus reduce emissions (cold start emissions especially which is where a large portion of emissions come from now) and lastly reduce engine noise (cold pistons can 'slap' -- and automakers -- luxury ones anyhow -- are always sensitive about engine/car noise). Anyhow, giving the cold engine a moment or two of idling time helps lessen the heat differences of these very critical engine components and if followed by reasonable driving will see these components come up to operating temperature none the worse for the experience. Over and over again. Sincerely, Macster.

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If it walks like a duck...........I did not use the word liar, but your are right, I should have since you DID lie. You DONT follow all of Porsche recommendations...period, so why did you say you do? Since you stated you did and you don't.... That is not a personal attack but a fact you proved on this forum yourself. Now I see the type of guy you are. You follow the crowd or the status quo, as you put it. Speak volumes about you. I never have been employed by Porsche and I don't even pronounce the word correctly so better find something else to accuse me of. I suggest you stop making assumptions about people and start thinking about what you say and maybe you'll find that the staus quo is a losers game. Stop making up stories to try to bolster your side of an arguement. These forums can be a great place to learn if you listen to all side of a debate. Some may not agree with all opinions, but, if the mental capicity exists, the reader can make his or her own choice on the direction to take. I guess you think that only you have the ability to choose which Porsche recommendations to follow, yet, none of us can challenge those recommendations. Classic!!

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Quod errat demonstrandum. You are a raving lunatic. And unless you're a stalker besides, again, you have no f-ing idea what I do with my car, so I can't fathom why you keep harping on about it. This outburst, filled as it is with rambling fictions, spelling mistakes and pre-adolescent emotional heat, proves that your counsel is worthless. I'll stick to the manual.

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But you don't follow the manual. All people have to do is look at you posts and it clearing shows that YOU DO NOT follow all of Porche recommendations. When you calm down, I think you'll realize that. Are you off your medications? BTW, if you are going to try to impress me with a foreign frase, you should at least get the spelling correct. I'm no going to bother with you til you sober up.

Holy crap Macster, that was a hell of a write-up on one topic, the piston/bore relationship during different expansion rates. What you are saying is probably more true with Aviation engines than car engines? Recip. engines have a design feature built-in where the top of the bore is tighter than the bottom so once at operating temperature, the bore is relatively true. I was just talking about all the "other" components. Bruce and Jim, carry on....................

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Absolutely hilarious post. 'foreign frase'. Classic. 'Porche'. Gold. '... look at you posts and it clearing shows.' (Even you may want to edit that one). And, as usual, entirely devoid of proof or cases in point. Sorry about misspelling 'erat'. If only your English was as good as your Latin. Man, I could bait you like this all night if I was the mean sort. But I'm not, and I have to hit the road anyway. Peace out, brother.

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Who just took the bait? Thank you. Easiest catch I ever made.

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Especially true in 2-cycle engines.

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cold coolant. I've seized a two-stroke engine when running wot with a high compression head installed. Engine didn't seize up solid, but slowed down a bit and when I closed throttle some engine cooled enough to free right up. Anyhow, with other cars I've seen a pretty drastic temperature drop when the thermostat opens and allows a slug of cold coolant into engine. These other cars has cast iron blocks though. However, I have checked my Boxster's engine and its real time reaction to when the thermostat opens after starting engine from cold (below 32 degs. F. and sometimes even in the 20s or teens) and so far the thermostat opens very gradually. My concern is that maybe with harder driving the opening might be more sudden and thus the temperature drop more sudden/severe and excessive engine wear could result. Thus, I do, as I touched upon above, do allow engine to gain some heat and then when I drive away keep engine speeds/loads down until engine fully up to temperature. Sincerely, Macster.

This post needs a poll... who is winning Bruce or Jim?

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I agree it's always best to abide by the manual. It's also a stretch to suggest that the manual is questionable because engineering recommendations therein were made by Engineers who made errors. If that were the standard we might as well discard all car manuals because every car that I have owned over the last 40 years has had their share of "design flaws" which are typically corrected on later releases of the same model. I think we all know by now that it's risky to buy a new model of any car, regardless of the manufacturer.

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Bruce is annihilating Jim. The fact Jim doesn't seem to notice, pretty much speaks for itself.

holy **** a thread blowing up without me involved? WTF is going on here?

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Good one, Ben!