Cam Shaft Deviation blues? what to do?

After gaining the knowledge from this great forum and its members, I was able to get readings off my Durametric for my recently acquired 2000 996.1. Of concern was my cam shaft deviations of -8.33 for #1 and -7.64 for #2. I took it to a local �German� shop where they hooked it up to their computer and got similar readings of -8.25 & -7.61. I asked for a quote to replace all of the cam chain guides, replace the small chains, and rebuild the varios with all new O-rings. They said (depending on any additional items they find) that job would run me $12,377! Add to that the fact that they�re slammed a when they can get it into their shop, minimum of 4-6 weeks to get done. I�m at a loss. I have quote requests in for 2 other shops in my area. I am mechanically capable of most tasks but have never cracked open a motor and feel that timing stuff is best left to professionally trained people. Also, I don�t have a garage big enough to comfortably work in. The car is running smooth as butter right now but I cannot afford that kind of money for the repair. Also, I know it needs new plugs and coils and a few other maintenance things. At 145,000+ miles, it is a driver and not a collector grade vehicle. Please share your thoughts as to if the quote is reasonable, what you�d do if you were in my shoes, and if I go to sell it, disclosing what it needs and what you think it�s worth. If anyone has any input how/where to sell it, that would help as well. Thanks in advance.

I got a quote for about $7k for the same job last year from a reputable shop in Atlanta. $12k seems a little excessive unless it included replacing items while the engine was out of the car.

Yeah... You are at one of those crazy decision points we all face. Deviations are clearly out of spec but the car runs fine. Cost to fix it is half a rebuilt engine. And you don't know if the cylinders are going to be good for another 50K or 150K. It's a daily driver, but is it a forever car? If yes, get a compression/leak down test to gauge the cylinder health. If that's good, have the work done. If compression is bad, you are at the next decision point. If it is not a forever car, drive it until something breaks and sell it as a roller. Could be many miles down the road. Or sell it now. Then the question is, what would you buy to replace it. That one will have many more unknowns. For me, I had the engine rebuilt with Nickies by FSI. This way I know the engine will last the next 200K + miles. Certainly longer than I expect them to allow me to drive. Good luck with your decision. It's not a fun position to be in.

I had mine done for $6k here in Houston. Don't let them tell you the motor needs to come out because it doesn't.....that's just a money grab.....mine included having the RMS replaced, throwout bearing, and a bunch of other things (as long as your in there) done. $12K is nuts. Thats half the vale of the car! . I would assume it feels fairly sluggish? I don't want to scare you but remember if you drop a valve, you have your self a 3000 lb. paper weight in your garage. You could ship the car to Texas have it down and return for less then $12K!

It's actually easier to do this job engine out and makes sense especially if you are doing a bunch of other work, including the AOS, water pump, etc.

Quick math: Sachs clutch kit $700. Chain and 3 tensioners $700. RMS $25. Labor for r&r and installs <35 hours.

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Here is some more quick math: Each of the cam variator in a 5-chain engine runs $1,500 now. Dealer item only. Mechanic who are busy do not / will not offer the rebuild option for the variator only to have it fail at their expenses again.

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Shops usually use the listed retail price, especially on Genuine parts due to low margins.

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Technically that is true, the motor does not NEED to come out IF you are a very very good mechanic. I am just a very (one very) good mechanic so I take the engine out to do bank 2 variocam. It beats inventing new curse words. And, if you are doing the AOS, water pump, belt, tensioners, 12V cable, alternator and starter rebuild, then the labor is about the same. To the OP, if you cannot afford a Porsche rebuild, sell it now. It will not be cheaper. Or, drive it until it dies, then sell the roller.

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If you want to keep it, forget the AOS or Porsche Motorsport AOS, both are known failure points. Get "Porschetech3"s UAOS to solve that problem. cost is about the same as official P-stuff, maybe even less. JMO What about other things, like IMS, water pump, coolant reservoir, ignition coils, and on and on? At 145k miles, your engine chains "may" be entering their last stage of life. When one of them goes, so does the engine. A 2000 996 is a little common, but gaining appreciation recently. Is it a "keeper for life" or just a run-of-the-mill 996? Special C4, or something. Unusual set of options in the car? While a Slakker 3.4 Rebuild is not cheap, it is warrantied for 2 years and designed for fixing 996 warts and failures for 100k miles. Think about it. YMMV

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I was going to have slakker do the rebuild myself (for an upcoming rebuild), but they no longer do the rebuild service and only offer the o-ring kit for $150 plus shipping. Much of your quote is probably the variocam actuators and oem parts. I would get a detailed breakdown and go thru it to figure out less costly parts. For example aftermarket cam shaft caps (6 needed) are $7 each vs. $20+ each for oem. It all adds up. Variocam Actuators are not difficult to rebuild - that would save you over $3k in parts alone - The variocam actuators are the same on a Boxster and a 996. Best regards

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This is so not the place to go after market ...

You could save so much money $$ if you could do the work your self ...... Before I retired I used to charge 5 hours per side to do Vairo-Cam Pads /Actuators on the 5 chain engines......so 10 hours total for both sides @$150 per hour Porsche Dealer Shop Rate ( Of course I got paid WAY WAY less than that ). I could actually do the job in 4 to 4 1/2 hours with the engine still in the car....To me it was pointless to remove the engine for this... Sure it was a little more difficult to do still in the car, but the time savings was well worth it..... What took the longest was just waiting for the oil to stop dripping so that it doesn't get all over your hands/arms while doing the job... Getting those two big mufflers out of the way and dropping the engine down to the crossmember gives plenty of room to work on the 5-Chain engines... on the 3-Chain engines there is not enough room to get the Special Tools in there for the Re-timing-- so its ENGINE OUT on the 3-Chain engines....

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Yes that is correct BUT to have just the pads replaced you do NOT need to drop the motor....I did my RMS, throwout bearing flywheel bolts, etc. but not the AOS....no need to.

I think there is another thread here discussing short block costs and the cost is around $8K after you return the core and get that refund (I think the thread is 2025 pricing). I think the short block includes all the cam chain and actuators, etc. - you would have to pay to have all the other assemblies transferred from the old block to the new block ...

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Aren�t those variocam actuators? Chain tensioners are the little pistons for the ramps. That�s what OP needs done.

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And the 30 hours min book time for r&r +.

If it runs well and does not throw codes I would run it as is. When it starts throwing codes it might be time for a clutch or something else major.

Is it feasible to continue driving the engine until the camshaft deviation #s trigger a trouble code? Isn't there a risk of a severe failure before the trouble code appears, such as a broken chain?

I don't want to sound rude but buying a 2000 Porsche with 150K miles, did you not expect any repairs? You keep on driving & things could get even more worse, so you really have no options. Two choices here, get it fixed along with other needed stuff or sell it and buy something that's bit more affordble. Good Luck

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As stated previously shops will quote oem (highest price) and use aftermarket (lower price) parts to maintain their margins. Being in front of that swap will save you money. Be selective on the best parts and costs for your situation, is the best choice for you and your budget. Buy some tensioners on eBay and do the Hartech o-ring upgrade yourself if you want to save some money(if comfortable with doing so). Sell your tensioners later to recoup some cost. budget and how much you want to spend is a choice. good luck!

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The back story for context; I had an extra 4-door Jeep (son needed $$$ for down payment on a house). I’m a Jeep guy. Built (lifts, lockers, onboard air, tube protection) & run every trail in Moab, Blackbeard Pass, Immogene, Wolf Creek is where we played for 2 decades, president of the Jeep club in Durango, was on the forums from the start, had a stable of 4 different Wranglers, etc. etc. I came across a guy wanting to trade his 911 for a Jeep to tow behind his RV. I checked everything I would on a Jeep. It wasn’t until I found this forum that I became “Porsche” educated. Even if I blow up the motor, I’m money ahead vs. the worth of the Jeep I traded (straight across swap, NO $). I’ve done complete axle swaps in my driveway and know that there’s more to timing and things like ring & pinion shimming than just bolting on. Now, I’m on just Social Security and medical stuff has eaten up everything else. I can’t afford to drop thousands into anything, regardless of how great it is. I down to just one Jeep in the drive with the top & doors off right now, so the 911 isn’t a necessity. But, man have I enjoyed driving it! The Carrera had the IMS, motor mounts, main seal, clutch all replaced 40k ago. All of the brake components replaced, H&R lowered suspension, Bilsteins, spacers, 18” 997 rims 39k ago. Belts, rollers, water pump, seat leather, hard top added, Porsche mid-length shifter 30k ago. Radiator fans replaced, radiators cleaned, 1 replaced 4k ago. O2 sensors, AOS, AC lines, coolant, hoses, fuel pump, sender, mass air sensor 3k ago. Crank position sensor 1k ago. So, even though it has 145,000 miles, it’s had most things addressed. And, yes, I did expect there to be things that need attention on a 26 year old car. I have an extensive maintenance history and the car drives phenomenally. The coils, plugs, fluids, and other maintenance stuff I was planning on doing throughout the summer. I’m into it a 2009 Wrangler Unlimited Sahara with the same amount of miles. But at the estimated 30+ hours for a trained professional (which I’d double for myself), I just don’t know if I have it in me anymore to attempt to go at it alone. I haven’t found any Porsche guys with their own shops like I knew in the Jeep world. I very much appreciate all of your input!

To be honest I think you should sell the car, you need to put either a lot of money or your time into this problem. The deviations are only going to get worse and as the tensioners wear out they will wear faster and faster as they degrade more and more. You do not want to do this job in your driveway either, getting the engine out of the car is not easy to do outside while also dealing with the elements and weather. You need to get the car really high in the air and also have a hydraulic lift table to lower it down. Ask me how I know, I have really bad cam deviations at 81k, bad enough to throw a CEL. I don't really recommend anyone try this outside. I am sure someone who has done this before could do it 10x faster, but I am not them even with my 20 years working on cars as a hobby. I bought a new short block to make this job worth my time, I didn't want to put my old engine back in with 81k, I def would not want to put a 145k engine back in the car after all those hours but that's just my opinion. Check your oil filter, brown plastic is the timing chain tensioners, black plastic is the IMS paddle inside the case, I had both in my filter and could not stomach putting my old engine back in the car knowing the IMS paddle was on its way out as well. You can not change the IMS paddle without splitting the case. If you decide to take on this project the tensioners are extremely cheap, all the money is in the labor. Others say you can do it with the engine in the car, that looks extremely difficult, and PorscheTech3 is one of the best techs around dealing with 996's and its a 9 hour job for him so triple that time for us regular backyard mechanics especially without a lift. Sorry to be blunt about it, this situation sucks its either lots of money or your time. I feel your pain.

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Thanks for this! I wish I had the flat space you have. Hey, now that your car is done…

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My car is not done, close to the halfway point, I wish it was haha. Currently sits like this As someone in your exact situation I wish you the best of luck friend.

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Are you accepting visitors?

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Bring it on !!! My Son is Revitalizing my old three bay 1200sq/ft Race Car Shop I built 40 years ago and set a few IHRA World Records in ....He inherited it from his Mother ( my 1st ex-wife ) when she passed away... He has a new 12,000 lb lift sitting there to be installed right now....He calls it " Gears and Beers Garage " !!!! I worked in there building Race Cars with no lift forever ..... Just Jack Stands, Jacks, and Cherry Pickers...lol

My cam deviations on my 99 are similar to yours, it still runs great. I was planning on dropping the engine sometime in the future to replace the chain guides. Based on your mechanical experience, I don't see why you couldn't do this yourself, it's really not hard.

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FWIW- If you want to try this project yourself, perhaps get a Quick Jack? I had P-shop for 30 years just B4 the end of aircooled. So I have turned a few wrenches on P-cars. I did it like Porschtech3 in the "old days", jack stands, floor jack, self-made engine/trans dolly, and a chain hoist. Sold it all. These days I bought a Quick Jack 7000 TL, and it is a "tight" fit under a 996, but works great. Maybe a smaller QJ will also fit a Jeep? Dunno. The QJ is also used for my Chev 1/2 ton truck and an older Toy 4Runner, which is why I chose the 7000. It certainly helps a lot doing these "repairs/projects". On C4S I replaced front suspension, cleaned rads, brake job, and so on. On 4Runner starter motor rebuild and R&R final drive. The QJ is far easier and faster than my old (Ptech3) methods. I have a small 1-car garage, not a lot of space, but works OK. I contemplated doing Major engine update work on C4S, but decided to "let" (pay) someone else to do it. Too old for that stuff with such a steep learning curve. However, Horrible Fright has a 1000 pound lift table that can function to lower the engine trans. It is around $350 or something like that. A QJ is around $2K, and then add jack stands, engine stand, etc, etc. All of this can be done if you really want to do it. If not, get the engine out of the car and strap it to a pallet and send it somewhere - like Slakker for instance. If motor sent to Slakker, you save the ~$2500 Out/In cost. That is a wash and you end up with a couple a good tools. Many do not recco a P-short block, it will have all of the original warts and failure modes still in it. JMO YMMV

[ guessing you mean long block not short block? QUOTE=996hobby;20514467]I think there is another thread here discussing short block costs and the cost is around $8K after you return the core and get that refund (I think the thread is 2025 pricing). I think the short block includes all the cam chain and actuators, etc. - you would have to pay to have all the other assemblies transferred from the old block to the new block ...[/QUOTE]

If using a Quckjack to drop the engine/trans, I used the 5000 TL which was the first model with the added height, you will need the SUV adapters to get the car high enough to clear the top of the engine, the sump needs to be 26 inches off the ground if using the HF 1000lbs lift table or it will not clear. The SUV adapters are too tall to fit under the car while on the ground, you will need to jack the car up onto wheel dollies or bricks and then you can slide the Quickjack with the SUV adapters underneath it. The HF 500lbs lift table is lower and will clear without the SUV adapters I believe, but I have not tried because I was worried 500lbs would not be strong enough to jack the engine and trans back up into the car. Another trick you can use to gain more room is to drop the engine and remove the intake before you slide the engine out from under the car.

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That pricing is for the short block. In Nov 2022 when I got mine it was $8368 + the core charge.

That "short block" thread was started by me. I built a 3.4L engine for my neighbor's daughter 996. I bought the short block, transferred everything over, paid for two new Variocam actuators, a valve job, and a bunch of new stuff. It was over $20K. The new short block has no IMS issue and the smaller 3.4L engine does not suffer bore scoring like the big 3.8L engine. The car is now running around in NY somewhere.

$12k is nuckin futs imo. I thought $5k was steep on my Boxster 3.2. That was 2021 I guess? Maybe the 3.2 is 3 chain v 5 I forget.

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Lemme tell ya a fairy tale.... There was Rinderceller who went to a dancy fress ball and sloppped her dripper there. Gairy fodmother was an bvil eitch. But po noblem, a prancsom hince came along and found it. The hest is ristory. YMMV

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WTF?

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#1 Clue: $12k is nuckin futs ...snip.... #2 Clue: Who had a Pumpkin as a Riding Coach? or,.... Ciding Roach? #3 Clue: ..snip... sloppped her dripper there. #4 Clue: FTW? VMMY

Quickjack is for sure not required for this. Nice to have, but a $2k expense that isn't necessary for one removal, one installation. The sneaky part is the stuff you'll want to change "while you're in there." For variocam pads you can walk through the steps and just think about every o-ring you'll come across along the way (the variocam pads have an o-ring, oil scavenge pump, chain tensioner, spark plug tube o-rings, etc...). They aren't expensive, just hard to get 'em all in one order so plan on a couple shipments from FCP. If the motor is out, the AOS would be nice. A Bentley manual, a hydraulic lift table ($200 harbor freight), and some basic tools can get you there. The hardest part about getting the motor out, by a long shot, is disconnecting old rubber coolant hoses and old plastic electrical connectors. After that, maybe the hidden bolt behind the AC compressor. Beyond that it's a very easy car to work on. My vote: rent a storage unit for a month or find a friends garage you can occupy for a month, and get in there.

Quote: "the AOS would be nice". Some comments, opinion up for grabs.... Great idea "a friend's garage." Perhaps there are not many out there - I sure don't know of any with "empty" space. NOPE. Factory P-AOS isn't worth the cost. Get a UAOS that doesn't fail. Cost is about the same as Pstuff. The QJ is not for just one use or thing. It makes a lot of other jobs easier. Examples - Oil/Filter change, tire-wheel tasks, brake pads or similar, cleaning radiators, and anything under the car. It also helps if you can't stand leaning over - your back - for other stuff. JMO. If you get a 5000, 6000, or 7000, (or other sizes), it can help with other vehicle projects. Size sort of depends on what is the heaviest car/pickup/SRV you want to put on it. Turn it 90 degrees sideways, and it also picks up ATV, riding grass machine, trailer axles/brakes-etc, or others for maintenance or ATV snowplow install stuff. YMMV

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The AOS has 3000 miles on it. While a QJ and a UAOS would be nice, whichever route I go it�ll have to be done on a priority needed basis. Thx

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Have you looked in the sump? If there is not a lot of hard plastic debris in there I would just enjoy it and monitor the numbers. What if you knew those were the deviations for the past 50k miles? That is a possibility. There are plenty of these driving around with no cel that will never have deviations measured. Or sell it for 16-22 depending on how nice it is.

Could you lift it with quickjacks, put it on tall jackstands, then move the quickjacks and use them to drop the engine down? There may or may not be clear space to roll it out under the car, but you�d have it clear of the chassis. In addition to all typical maintenance, if you want to do engine out work, using the quick jacks for engine lowering in place of a hydraulic table does make them more compelling.

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Well, while I'm sure some could jury rig that set up to work in a somewhat clumsy dangerous manor, thats not the way to use QJ imho. Now if you're stuck at the bottom of the Baja and thats all you got and have to drop engine to repair and get back home,,,,well, go for it... For one if you somehow rigged it and did get the engine lowered on the QJ, its 5'+ long and hanging out the back of the car, in the way, with no wheels to roll out the engine. And its 2 separate lifts to have to manage with a heavy engine balancing on both lift sides. Suppose you could rig up a piece of plywood screwed to the QJ top pockets, mount some wheels on it somehow, just more jury rigging the QJ that wasn't designed for that stuff. More chance to hurt yourself or damage stuff... Then there is the problem of what spots to lower the car on to jack stands when removing the QJ to use as an engine table, thats stable enough to hold the car solid for an engine drop and not in the way of your engine removal work. This problem is solvable somewhat but I much prefer using the correct jack points when dropping engine/tranny. Its just safer imo. For saving on a $250 HF Franklin lift table, seems like lots of risk/work/pia,risk, for a very small reward. Over the many decades of working on heavy mechanical stuff, and seeing many get injured including myself, I like to weight the risks vs benefits before using tools that were not designed for what I was contemplating doing with them. This is different than using a screwdriver instead of a chisel... Just trying to help... JMHO

Fair point! I�m familiar with the quickjacks but don�t own them/have never used them. Seemed like it might be a possibility, but you are right there are more than a few assumptions in there about going from QJ to stands and the QJ staying in sync to safely raise/lower the engine. I have a 2 post and bought a hydraulic table, so I won�t argue with what should be the preferred approach! I haven�t dropped an engine yet either (in a 996 anyway� motors come in/out similarly in the old MR2s.

I think @hbdunn has the right idea, monitor the deviations and keep driving it until they get worse and then make your decision about what to do at that time, hopefully it lasts a while. I before said to sell the car now, before it gets worse so you don't get stuck with a CEL while trying to sell the car, but maybe it takes awhile for that to happen anyway. Pulling the engine is not as hard as other cars, advising you to take on a huge project and spend thousands on quickjacks, lift tables, timing tools and all the other while you're in there stuff doesn't seem like the right answer, it's not really that easy of a repair.

I do everything on a 4-post lift.

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How are you reading cam deviations on a 99? Durametric? I have PIWIS and it doesn�t show up as an option

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yes, Durametric.

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He does not have a "99" with cable throttle body.... he has a 2000 with DBW ....... The 1999 C2 has DME 5.2.2 and it does not send out as much info as the DME 7.2 used in 1999 C4 , 2000, 2001 996.1 drive-by-wire cars

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Thank you all for your input! It just went up on BaT this morning. After a lot of contemplation and soul searching, as much as I enjoyed driving it, in the immortal words of Mr. T, “I ain’t got time for this jibber-jabber”! A large part of the decision was that besides the rich-people-only shop that quoted me $12,333 to replace the cam chain guides, the other shop in Albuquerque and the next closest one in Sante Fe both ghosted me after contacting both several times inquiring if the could/would do the work. A fourth shop has numerous complaints filed with the BBB for shady dealings. So, not having a quality shop to revert to nailed the coffin. [gratuitous pimping photo] [/gratuitous pimping photo]

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Yep, good Techs are hard to find and it will only get worse .. Todays youth just don't have the passion for cars like my Generation ... Everyone will be driving Hybrids soon, and when the ICE fails they will just drive it on Electric then throw it away...

A quick update for any of you sports fans still following… just sold on BaT. I will add that any internet mechanics with master internet certifications in the 3.4L that have to spew their bulls@#$ about borescore or what they believe needs done on somebody else’s listing can eat a bag of d@#$s!

Oh MY !!! They took you out behind the woodshed !!! Got a link to the Auction ?

Seems to me someone is having a bad day. I don't disagree with the comment "internet mechanics" but the eating of Dog$h!t.....now thats just funny. I understand life is tough but come on......LOL.

BaT is dog****.

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I will say a big thank you to Porschetech3 for all of your help! A genuine fleecing…

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How smart is you! Doesn�t say �Dog$h!t�. You�re no Native Son, I�ll tell you what.

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Yeah, BAT is a crapshoot unless you have a low mileage car with a unicorn color and aero. I wouldn't take your frustrations out on Rennlisters nor the BAT posse. Your car needed some work that you openly talked about but decided not to do for one reason or another. Sorry it wasnt the price you wanted.

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their bulls@#$ about borescore or what they believe needs done on somebody else�s listing can eat a bag of d@#$s! hummmmmm.

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My frustration is that it was unnecessary for someone to post on a listing that anyone feels the need to post their interpretation on what needs to be done on a listing that isn�t theirs nor one they didn�t intend to purchase. My take-away is that had I not listed the Durametric and then not divulged the results of the reading and let the prospective buyers figure it out on their own (like 90% of the other listings) I might have been further ahead. Me being 100% transparent and doing (what felt like the right thing to do) cost me money. I expressed my frustration on this forum (of which I�ve learned a lot an appreciate) only to have a jackwad be condescending with a �life�s tough� response that wasn�t necessary is pure bullsh�t.

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I�d sure like to meet you face to face bubba.

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"Jackwad"! You are special.

Let this thread be a cautionary tale!� A wise and experienced mechanic/engine builder once said;�the cheapest Porsche you can buy will be the most expensive Porsche you�ll ever own�� Do your homework before buying lest you wind up in a similar situation

Sorry you didn't get as much as you wanted, but it was the right and moral thing to disclose the cam deviations. The buyer is now in the same boat that you were and hopefully bought the car knowing they're going to have to put in a lot of money and/or time to get it addressed.

lol someone in the thread said it was a $4k job - a far sight from $12k indeed! a plain jane build with 150k and a cab....That's a $13k car. Sorry.