'99 C2 - RMS, IMS, Engine nightmare

I am starting this thread on behalf of a friend of mine who owns a '99 C2 very similar to mine. Luckily (knock on wood) I have had zero issues with mine, but hers has been a nightmare. First off, I strongly suggested getting a PPI but she chose not to get one. Obviously that was a big mistake. Please, no PPI sermons. 1999 C2 with 57,000 miles purchased through eBay auction in 12/08 for $22,500. 7/09 - 60,000 miles. She noticed oil leak under car and brought to Porsche dealership. From invoice: Check for oil leak and advise. found rear main seal leaking and oil in coolant tank. R&I oil pan to pressurize system, found water leaking from oil sump area. Blown head gasket(s). R&I Engine/Trans, recouple trans, clutch and flywheel to replace rear main and intermediate shaft seal. Found clutch worn to limit and replaced at same time. Tear down engine to replace l/r bank cyl head gaskets. Replace oil cooler and oil seperator. Road test 20 mi. ok. Total amount paid for repairs above: $6,101.59 1/10 - 62,400 miles. Oil light came on after fueling and stayed on for about 10 seconds, never came back on. Drove home 2.5 miles, checked oil, barely anything on the dipstick and a "tan froth" leaking next to coolant reservoir, obviously oil/coolant mixture. No CEL or any other warning lights illuminated on dash. Took back to Porsche dealership. They are now saying it may have a cracked block and needs a new engine. Their estimate: $16,989 for engine, labor, tax. Please advise as to what she might do next. Thanks.

talk to the manager and ask them why she just spent $6k on it with thier diagnosis being head gasket and now the same problems = new motor ? I mean I would play a little dumb and pissed at the same time... If the motor is shot and she needs a new one... OK thats a huge problem, but at the same time they just sank $6k worth of work into the same motor 2500 miles ago ??? If i knew I would get 2500 miles from a $6100 bill I would be raging pissed (even though I know they cannot see the future) second, get another opinion on the car - make sure the diagnosis is right call Jake Raby talk to Dharn55 - he has been down that road too GL and I am not sure a PPI would have found this since she drove it 8 months before it had the problem and it is a fairly low mile 99'

I know I'm being a jerk but her being a lady might of helped things get weird. I was under the impression the porsche head gaskets were bullet proof to leaking almost. I'd think a shop would of looked for another cause for flaws that cause the water to oil to leaking. Not that the shop would be into magnafluxing everything that gets torn down but I'd think a simple looking over th engine could of seen the problem. I'd even think somebody if a long time mechanic would of seen something like a good head gasket and though hmmmm the leak is probably not the gasket and advised the shop forman. All together I don't know. But I do know some might turn around and press the shop to at least deduct the previous billing of head gasket repair from any other billing to deal with the problem. Once again I don't know but I do know she got a rotten deal in the buy it seems. I think the previous owner knew there was a problem probably through a leak down test.

First off if the motor runs then it's most likely the heads or head gaskets. Since they replaced both head gaskets 2,500 mile ago I'm guessing they really want her to buy a new motor rather than tear it down. They obviously have a conflict of interest in diagnosing the motor and for that reason alone I'm not sure I'd trust them to do the teardown. If a head's cracked (common), one could argue it probably had already developed that crack albeit smaller 2,500 miles ago and they just missed it. You could also argue they should have taken those heads apart then to assure they were OK since it had 60k miles and was 10 years old and had just suffered a blown a head gasket or 2.... I don't envy her position, but she shoudl get pissed and insist on talking to a regional service manager BEFORE they touch her car....

Good point on the head leak and not the head gasket leak - yea, if it is the head then clearly they missed the repair with the last gouging

Your insight and knowledge is very much appreciated. I have forwarded these replies to her. Her brother-in-law is going in to the dealership on Monday to talk to them. Thanks again.

I am so sorry. I thank god I dont use the dealer. Indy's or DIY for me.

As stated before its never a head gasket with these engines. Shameful the dealership didnt see the most likely crack in the cylinder head. I have my 99 C2 engine out in my garage for intermix and found BOTH heads cracked. Awaiting return of 2nd head from machine shop before reassembly. Dealers know how to replace engines, unclear why this one would assume intermix is gasket?

I am curious what they meant by pressurizing a system after removing the oil pan. Did they pressuize the coolant side or the oil side? And why did they replace the oil cooler and AOS? Did they test the oil cooler to see if it was leaking? Was there evidence that the AOS was bad? All seems kind of fishy to me. Particlularly when they diagnosed it as a failed head gasket, and then replaced the headgasket on both side. Sound to me that they really did not have a clue what they were doing. Sehorntx is right, the head gasket almost never fail. But if one did it should have be obvious, same marking on the head from the leak. Intermix are usually caused by either a cracked cylinder of a cracked head, although I have heard of a failed oil cooler. If the heads were removed they should have been carefully examined for cracks. The cracks are usually found at the inner exhaust valve spring seat on cylinder #1, or less commonly on cylinder #6. the cracks tend to run down the sparkplug tubes. I will post some pictures, but they are on a different computer so I can't do it right now. The good news is that if it is a cracked head, and the car has not been driven too much with the intermixed oil it can be fixed. I did mine and it is running great. the cost to repair the head and get a valve job on one side is about $500. Another $500-$1,000 in parts plus labor for the work, maybe another $1,500-$2,000. You can also get a new head for about $2,800. Be careful with trying to find a used head, most that I looked at were cracked in the same spot. that is why I had mine fixed. Did all the labor other than fixing the cracked head itself and the valve job. You could ask the mechanic to take out the sparkplug tubes, particularly on #1 and #6 and ook for the cracks before they drop the engine, you may be able to see a crack, try some dye.

Just FYI, she is down in Ft. Worth, TX and I live in ND so I'm assisting from a distance. Her brother-in-law lives nearby and is going into the dealership on Monday to talk with them. Will post updates here when I hear back from them.

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Your not immune from incompetence. A Boxster owner posted of taking his car in for RMS and when he got call from indy it was to tell him the Tip -- which was working perfectly before he took car in -- was no longer working. Either Tip damaged during installation or shop forgot to fill Tip with fluid after reinstall and upon starting engine Tip damaged cause of lack of oil. Indy did take, sort of I think the wording was, responsibility for the non-functioning Tip and the shop and car owner are splitting the cost of a used Tip. Sincerely, Macster.

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You need to tell us which dealership? There are many Rennlisters in the Dalls/FW area that have connections to certain dealerships. Do tell....

Autobahn Motorcar Group

I know you need to work with the dealer to some degree here since they might have screwed up, but if you can get the car over to RUF I think you'd be better off. If you definitely need to get the motor replaced, have RUF do it instead unless the dealer is eating some/all of the cost.

I just read through this thread. Sorry to hear about the situation! I agree........since the previous work was recently done AND it could lean towards a misdiagnosis, I would try to negotiate with the dealer (If she decides to have it repaired). Plus on top of it all......the amount of the previous repair was a considerable amount! Those guys at the dealer have GOT to do something for her in a situation like this! $6100 for 2500 miles is some expensive mileage! Good luck. Please let us know what happens. I would be curious of the outcome.

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No doubt they misdiagnosed.... I would have her bring a male friend that is knowledgeable of these cars.... sadly, shops do take prey of the unknowledgeable.

Sounds like a cracked head to me... This has become more common with mileage in the 99-2000 cars and most often seems to occur in winter.

Are replacement heads available?

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Gotta wonder, The 928 blowes head gaskets more in the winter then people go out and start to car to warm it up. The 928 doesnt like that. I wonder if your "more in the winter" comment holds anythingsimular here with the 996?

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first they are going to come back and tell her the two issues are not related. after all the car went another 2500 miles

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Yes there are some chinese ones available... (Private Brake thread joke)

I've seen a company called motor meister online from california that ports and polishes heads amung other rebuild things. While browsing around looking for performance upgrading like complete rebuilds I found them. They might have used heads you could get. Some of the wordings in their site look a bit foreign. http://www.motormeister.com/

To many bad reviews for me to trust the above mmeister, try Strasse Auto in Newport in Cali [phone removed] cost is about half of factory. One year warrenty and the engine I have has ran great so far.

Update: The dealer (Autobahn Autocar Group in Ft. Worth) is now offering the following: She provides the engine and they will install with no labor charges. Or, they are offering "best price" (whatever that means) on a remanufactured engine and $10/hr off their $130/hr labor rate to install it. Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated.

Also, she believes they quoted $8,000 for a remanufactured engine through them.

I heard a motor can be had for 8-9K from a dealer. I heard this from my informant on the inside. Thats not really fair. They already gave to her for what 6500? Now she has to go get an engine and they will put it in for free? I >>heard<< thats like a 4-6 hour job? So they are giving her a whole 500-800 bucks. Tell them to refund the work they did. They can have the old engine when you pull it.

The 3.4's have gone way up in price. The list is over $14,000, and last time I check (3-4 months ago) Sunset was $11,795 plus the core. There has been one price increase since then. If the dealer will do a 3.4 for $8,000 that is a pretty good price. Just looked it up on Rennlist and a new head goes for about $2,000. Last summer when I checked they were $2,800, so I am not sure abut that price. I had the crack in my 1-3 head fixed at Costa Mesa R&D, $500 with a valve job. All I can say is that my car is running great.

BIG correction: She was incorrect with the $8,000 amount. Below is pasted from an email from Porsche Service Manager at Autobahn. I say....yet another gouging. My Service director had the engine prices,and said if you find a used engine we will install it for no labor, also will work with her more on the labor if we do a porsche reman, which carries a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty. The engine lists for 17837.00 with the core charge the cost is 13,860.00 and we will do it for that with tax of 1143.45 plus cost on the labor which would be 950.00 that is with no mark up on either.

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Are you referring to RAC Performance in Carrollton?

For $15k I would sue the MF'ers for incompetence. They mis-diagnoised the cracked head the first time round and now want her to pay for their mistake. I've owned and raced Porsches since 1968 and it pains me to see what's become of Ferry's company. Moving forward, I suggest pulling both heads and sending them to a qualified shop for analysis, Jake if he's willing. If we're right, she will have a cracked head which can be replaced or patched at substanially less costs than the incompetent ****'s at her dealership. I would have an independent do this work. If we're all wrong, she really hasn't wasted any monies as the motor needs to be removed regardless. I would then exchange it with Auto Strasse in So Cal per "Mother's" recommendation. I'm racing one of their stock motors right now and they are good/honest folk. Their reman motor is probably half of Porsche's. Jake's motor would be the best alternative by far, but you're into Porsche reman monies then.... That description is almost always a cracked head and with only 60k miles she has viable alternatives to bending over for those ****** at her dealership....

She has already consulted an attorney. I'm just an outsider trying to help a friend here, but it seems to me this one will end up in court...considering their incompetent "work" and weak offer to make things right with their customer. This one isn't over yet by any means. Will post updates as they happen.

Sadly Porsche dealerships are not Porsche. Isn't it actually a franchise affair a Porsche dealership owns? My vote from the Porsche side of the house is inspect that dealerships practices to weigh for cancelling their franchise. At least to give an example to the other franchises of how they should keep the name of Porsche in good standings. This is besides the fact of them being americana swinen hehehe Best of luck getting past finding a bad Porsche manager.

RAC and Ruf are one and the same. My 2000 C2 is there as we speak getting a Porsche reman for the exact same problem. Hans has done right by me and I trust him implicitly.

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Ok. Thank you.

Did she call PCNA about this?

I guess it would be wrong to drive it through the dealership window for her.

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Fixed it for ya

The head can be repaired and strengthened with a few processes.

Wow.......The dealer is not really doing much for her! At the very LEAST, they should deduct the complete $6500 off of the bill if she decides to go with a reman engine! What I don't understand is why are they offering to do the labor for free if she gets a used engine, but they are going to charge her for the labor (even though it's discounted) if she goes with the reman engine? The install labor should be free for either.......I would think??

No affiliation, but this person has two 3.4 litre engines available: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pts/1570472902.html

After giving this some real thought on whats fare here. I agree they may have mis diagnosed the first problem. However the car did go 2500 miles after they fixed it the first time. But even so, lets say they did mis diagnose the car and it needed an engine from the start. >>IF<< that is the case and I am not so sure it is becasue again the car went 2500 miles after they fixed it. But lets say they did. They really only owe her the 6200 she originally paid them for the first fix. leaving about 10K for a motor and if i read right they have offered that??? (Ill go back and read more carefully). You asked him to fix the car. He did his professional best and some thing has gone wrong. I think it is only fare you work with them and pay them the 10K to do the engine. instead of just demanding your 6200 back.(plus I think its the only way you are going to get yoru 6200, with out 100K in headach, lawyers and frustration.) You can not prove they made a wrong diagnosis. However they can prove that car went another 2500 miles, It went another 2500 miles with a cracked block? I dont think so. I think you need to be Jimmy and take what they gimmy.

Ok so I see they offer the job at 12700 + tax for a total of abotu 13.8.... I would counter with "Ok you can do your reman engine at 16000 MINUS my orig bill of 6200 and we can put this to bed. Or go back and say... Look you get it done for 10K out the door not a penny more and this is over. Deal? I bet they take it. Used engines are around for about 6000.00 but you have to look hard for them

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+1 this is *somewhat* fair for both sides given the price of a new motor is 16K... and these 3.4 tend to blow up at around 60-70K anyways... so 10K for the new motor including install (which includes 2 year warranty) is what you want to achieve here... the fact they missed the heads when they pulled the engine out is unacceptable... especially given the history of the head problems in these motors... *especially* at the mileage of the motor as well... idiots... ... also the fact they are offering free install pretty much is an admission of a screw up.... but its more confusing when they want to charge her for installing a new engine... hmmm I wouldn't touch a used 3.4 with a ten foot pole... you never know where its been and what's been done to it... you can't authenticate the mileage and like I said its probably gonna grenade at 60K given the failure points of this motor... get the reman for $10K all in and call it a day... if they don't want to play ball get a lawyer... you have a case.

Just curious...has anyone here done business with this company Autobahn Motorcar Group in Ft. Worth?

The really sad part abotu this is now no matter what she is going to hate that car forever. The porsche owner experiance is basically ruined for her. Now thats sad. The engine is only money. she gets more of that every friday

It is really too bad that she has gone through this with her Porsche. Like I said on my original post, I have been very lucky so far with my car and I told her that when she decided to start looking for one like mine (sorry Sue). She has had a very positive attitude during all of these battles with the car. I think recently, and after reading all of the posts here, she realizes that she has in fact been screwed (by the seller and then Autobahn Autocar Group). Because of that, she is now getting more aggressive with her efforts to get the dealer to make things right with her. She is pissed and I don't think anybody could blame her.

Here is the original eBay auction flyer. sm_996.jpg

No offense, but in reading the ad it's clear that these people probably bought the car at an auction. They are not Porsche people, and don't claim to have done any real mechanical inspection. In fact, by their wording, they basically just walked around the car and drove it around the block. "Yep, lights work, car drives fine, there you go." I see no reason to carry a resentment towards the seller. She should have gotten a PPI. The dealer is another story, and she should pursue all avenues with that, including getting PNA involved. I would suggest taking it to RUF immediately. Let someone who knows WTF they are doing look at it. Plus w/ their reputation, a written diagnosis would help her position w/ the dealer as well as in court. IF it needs a new engine, I would throw out another option. That she just walk away from the car. Sell it "as is", cut her losses, and move on. She paid what, $22k for it? If a new engine is close to $15k, she's only $7k away from another 911 (PPI this time). I'm sure she could get at least $10-12k for the car as is. I hope she doesn't hate the car for this. At the end of the day, these ARE high end, expensive sportscars. The reward is high when you drive one, but they are costly to maintain (compared to a Honda), and when something goes wrong it goes expensively wrong. That's why few people are lucky enough to ever own one of these cars. If you think you're going to pick up a "cheap" porsche, think again. If it's any consolation, she could have bought a new one and lost $20 grand in depreciation in the first 2 years.

The dealer isn't offering your girlfriend squat to help ease her woes. No offense to Rennlist legal eagles, but you never know how that course of action will turn out. The suggestion of using Ruf or other reputable Porsche facilities will only cost you girl more $ that she may not have at this point to spend, but are good recomendations if she can. Otherwise, she could sell her car and forget about Porsche ownership and chalk this up to a bad experience.GL and forget about Porsche ownership .

Update please. Curious minds and all that stuff....

Update: As recommended, the car was brought to another shop (indy). I just got off the phone with Joseph at Loeffler's in North Richland Hills, TX and he is saying this: The head is not cracked as Autobahn Motorcar Group suggested but the "bottom of the engine" has problems...intermix everywhere including radiator, heater core, etc. All hoses bulging and all orifices polluted with intermix. I tried to press him for more specifics other than "bottom of the engine". German is his first language so maybe it was a language barrier. He is recommending trying to sell the car as-is and not put another penny into it. He did not recommend putting in a reman or ANY other engine as in his opinion, ALL 996 (and many 997) engines have inherent problems and will fail at low mileage. From reading here, I don't know if that is necessarily true. Admittedly there are issues with some 996 engines but all? Says he has talked to people in his circles and nobody wants this car because 1)color - Arena Red 2) 996 engine issues. Thoughts?

Non-running due to engine faults 996 or Boxsters only have value if someone actually wants to buy them off the current owner. Engine replacement, plus all the other parts it is likely to need often exceeds the value of the vehicle. So some options: sell "as is", take the loss and buy something else or install a Porsche re-man engine (and all the other stuff: clutch, DMF, if not a tip car, coolant tank update etc) and drive the car. Both the 996 and Boxster are not rare cars and in the current economy, people are averse to buying "projects" or venturing into what is basically an unknown future on a car that every other car lot has one for sale already running......

I will give you $50 for it ..... GEEZ....! I agree, no one wants it, but the owner might! and that ALL 996's have issues, yea, FYI - ALL CARS HAVE ISSUES... I suggest shipping me the car, my indy will rebuild the motor with Jake Raby's newest block and have a beautiful Arena Red Porsche back home in no time... N.D. seems like a bad place to find a Porsche mechanic (BTW my parents are both from there and my mom still lives this side of Fargo 30 miles)

ivangene - the car and both shops are in TX, not ND.

Seriouosly, find someone who has been thru LM Engineerings M96 rebuild class and talk with them. I know it isnt cheap to do (and I would not want to be in that possition) but there ARE options and for someone to say its not worth anything, no one wants it and it's not worth fixing is rediculous. IMO

he's got a point... the 996 engines weren't that great... the m96/7 started getting better in 2006 when the "updates" were introduced... making them more reliable... but still not bullet proof... if you get a re-man make sure its made on 2006 or later.. as it will be a brand new motor with the updates... and its true what he's saying about low mileage... about 60K miles before you have an incident.... of course if your going to track it... and you don't address oil changes and don't have a 3rd radiator... RIP sooner than later is a guarantee... don't know how much the reman's are but its worth considering... or one of Jake Raby's engines.. this way you still get to keep your car and don't lose any $$$ on selling a car without an engine....

You might think the car is worth money, but I will repeat, it is only worth something: IF someone offers to buy it should it go for sale, followed by the discussion about "how much?" starts. OR you are keeping it and prepared to put the money into it. Which may be for many reasons. Evryone has differing values on their possessions and whether they want to keep them or not.

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the way I look at it is.... if I sell this car the way it is... how much more $$$ do I have to spend to get back on the track...?? usually this is a lot more than just fixing.... and when your looking at it from this vantage point.... if your car is already setup and ready to go... buying an engine is your cheapest way out... and you get 2 year warranty (or Jake's motor)

I agree to a point, IF I owned the car free and clear (no liens etc) and I liked it, there were no other upcoming issues then IF I was doing the work my self, it's maybe worth it. There are a lot of "if and maybes " though.....

What a sad ending. Even sadder that his tech told him to give up.... That kinda pisses me off. StrekStrekStrekStrek him, its a nice car is you take the proper steps to ensure its well being. What a jerkoff. Tell him to go home

All repair shops have to present to the customer with a final invoice total and a repair they can stand behind with a warranty. It is up the customer to decide what to do, or seek advice and/or second opinion. It is also up to the shop to decide whether they actually want to get involved in the repair if they believe it is a potential profit losing deal or are unsure of the outcome. Some vehicle owners just walk away and are not prepared to spend money on, cars that need major repairs. No-one can force other people to spend money when they decide not to.

To all who have contributed to this thread, I thank you on her behalf...even though the outcome wasn't that good. I haven't gotten the final go ahead to seek offers here for the car but when I do, I will read through the forum rules on posting items for sale and then post. If I had extra money laying around, I would buy it and either do the repairs (yikes) or keep for parts for mine. On a positive note, she is NOT completely soured on Porsche ownership after all of this. She is already considering buying another 911.

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Maybe she could take the turd to a reputable P-car dealer and find a newer 996 with a CPO. She will take a beating but they may give her more for her car to move a vehicle on the lot. Hell, it would be a nice toy/side project for a Porsche Tech. Get the motor at cost and install in your spare time.

OK. I'll be the voice of unreason: Paid $22K for the car. If she gets motor from Jake, dealer, indy... for $12K plus the $6K. Now she has $40K in the car with no engine miles and a 1-2 year warranty. I paid $55K for an M3, drove it for 40,000 miles and sold it for $31K. Cars lose $$ from the day you buy them. The trick is to reduce the amount to what you can stand. We're all upside down for the day we buy them...it's just a question of degree. Just saying...

Oh yes. And I have 100,000 miles on my engine and it hasn't "grenaded"...hasn't even "firecrackered".

Joseph at Loeffler's does not seem to know what he is talking about. Unless he includes a cracked cylinder as part of the "bottom of the engine" I have never heard of an intermix being caused by the bottom of an engine (although there could be a crack somewhere in the block, but I have never heard of one). As for the intermix being everywhere, no kidding! That is what happens when the oil mixes with the coolant that is being circulated through the cooling system. When my head cracked at 50,000 miles, there was intermix throughout the cooling system, it was a pain to flush/cleanout, but I did it. Unless someone pulls the cam overs and cams and possibly the heads to check for cracks, and to look at the cylinder walls for cracks this is all just guessing. When my intermix happened the dealer and all the mechanics I talked to said the engine had to be replaced. All I can say is that I dropped the engine, pulled off the cam covers and cams, found the crack in the head, had it fixed, flushed the cooling system and put it back together. I have almost 3,000 miles on the engine and it is running fine. $500 for the head repair and valve job, about $1,000 in other parts (some of which were not directly related to the cracked head/intermix) and my time for the labor. There is a possiblity that if to many miles were put on with the intermix the bearings could be worn too much. I expect that my bearings have more wear than if the intermix had never happened, but the car has great oil pressure and runs fine. Even if it does not last another 100,000 miles the cost to repiar it was minimal, especially compared to a new/reman engine and I am back in the drivers seat and enjoying the hell out of the car. As to the reliability of the M96/M97 engines, sure lots of them have failed (and Porsche response has been reprehensible!!), but lots of them are going for 100,000 and 200,000 miles. She should find a mechanic who has some experience with tearing done these engines (few do) and start a disassembly to find out what is really wrong before she just writes-off the value of the car.

It would be a shame if the car only has a cracked head like Dharn55's engine. Shipping the car from Texas to the head weld/repair shop on the west coast would not be that expensive. That is if it is an repair shop and not just a specialized welder. I would also upgrade the IMS bearing at the same time and the fix should be less than replacing an engine. There is also an engine for sale around $4K or $5K in Denver. Upgrade that IMS and have it up and running cheaper than replacing the engine.

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really? do you track this particular car more than than 15 times a year? how many track days would you say you have on this car?

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I have never added up the receipts for my 928. But I am pretty certain I am over that amount... Sometimes its a love for the car project.

Shark Attack. My point exactly. If I were her, I would probably repair or replace engine. At least when I'm done, I'm still driving a Porsche. At this point, if she sells and gets a $5,000 Honda, she'll pay $23,000 for it. c70Pete. I've got 5 track days on the car. I have a track car (refer to Avitar), so the 996 is mainly my fun DD. I bought it w/65,000 miles off a car lot and it's been pretty much maintance free. I instructed a weekend at CMP with it and found oil under car Monday morning (yipes). It turned out that I had slightly overfilled oil and the turns at CMP well... Anyway, that was 6 months ago. I wiped her down and no oil since.

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exaclty, I know a lot more people that have spent that much killing them self with cigaretts. And after she is done, she is going to know EXACTLY what she has. The money is already lost.

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yea but.... unless she does it herself she will NEVER know what she exactly has as many have found out to their chagrin

Car has been sold. On her behalf, thank you guys for all the great advise and suggestions. She's now looking for another and will be getting a PPI this time.

Did she recover some of her purchase price to enable her to buy another 911? How did she do with her sale?

I am glad it worked out for her and it has not ruined her opinions of the car. I do hope she was honest to the new seller. I saw one just like it on ebay last night

She got an amount that both parties agreed was fair. Yes, she was 100% honest about the condition of the car. In fact, I'm pretty sure the buyer was following this thread. I got several PM's from people here and I passed along her information to them.

Well this has been kind of a downer thread so thought I would post up a pic of my 996. DSCI0102.jpg

Nice pic of your Porsche. Glad she worked through her problem, sounds as if everyone involved will survive.

Susan, the owner of this car submitted a complaint to the BBB in regards to this situation. Here is the response she received from Autobahn Motorcar Group Ft. Worth Tx. General Manager Randy LaRoche. Thoughts? _______________________________________________________________ Susan's Porsche 911 was brought to us at the end of June 2009 for a complaint of an oil leak. While diagnosing the oil leak, we discovered a small amount of oil in the coolant reservoir caused by a faulty head gaskets. We repaired the leaking head gaskets that were allowing a minor oil/coolant cross contamination, and to minimize the likelihood of any other oil/coolant contamination issues, we also replaced the oil cooler. The initial complaint of an oil leak was resolved by replacing the rear main seal. In process of replacing the rear main seal, the technician noted the clutch was worn to minimum specs, so the clutch was also replaced, all repairs totaled $6,101.59. In January 2010, the vehicle returned with a large scale mixing of coolant and oil pervasive in the car's entire engine and cooling system. While both instances involved oil/coolant cross contamination, the only common element was oil and coolant were involved. Because of its large scale contamination, the second instance is indicative of a catastrophic internal engine failure (cracked block or cracked cylinder head), while the first instance is symptomatic of a more minor failure, such as a head gasket leak or oil cooler failure. Oil/coolant cross contamination can be caused by many different failures, any of which can be the result of age, defects in the original manufacture, engine abuse, and overheating. It's analogous to a check engine light - the symptom can be similar, but the symptom can be caused by many different failures. It is entirely true that the 1999 Porsche 911 engines have a statistically higher failure rate than most Porsche models, but cross contamination between oil and coolant isn't a valid indicator of impending catastrophic engine failure, it's just one of many issues that crop of on cars of this age, regardless of the manufacturer. There's no reasonable way for us to determine which cars will or will not suffer engine failures, especially cars of this age, and we obviously cannot counsel all our clients with 1999 model 996's to dispose of their cars or advise them that their car is not worth repairing because they're not inherently flawed cars. Every car has its weak points, especially ones more than 10 years old, but a 1999 911 can be a great car - our own shop foreman owns one. Susan's contention is that the first failure and second failure are the same, and if that's so, our initial repair of $6,101.59 did not correct the problem. Between the car's visits to Autobahn in July 2009 and January 2010, another very reputable, independent repair facility did a major 60k service on the vehicle in December 2009. The vehicle having a major service completed at a separate, non-affiliated repair facility is a certain indication that the failure corrected by Autobahn in July 2009 is not the same failure that occurred in January 2010. If the initial failure had been a terminal one, like a cracked block or cylinder head, there would have been a significant amount of oil/coolant contamination at the time of the major service in December 2009. Oil/coolant contamination is immediately recognizable, even by layman - when oil and coolant are mixed in an engine, it froths into the consistency and appearance of peanut butter. Anyone merely checking the oil level with a dipstick would be almost certain to immediately notice large scale oil/coolant mixing, and it's essentially impossible for anyone performing a major service on a Porsche to overlook oil/coolant contamination. If there was no coolant/oil contamination noted at the major service in December 2009, then the failure in January 2010 must have been a separate and unrelated failure to the one we corrected in July 2009. The kind of failure that would cause a large scale oil/coolant mix as in January 2010 is not the kind of failure that comes and goes or the kind of failure that would cause a bit of oil to show up in the coolant reservoir as occurred in June 2009. While there's no causal relationship between our repair completed July 2009 and the failure of January 2010 or any reasonable way for us to have advised Susan to "cut and run" in July 2009, we extended an offer to Susan to repair her current problem at an enormous discount and at the cost of much more productive work for our facility in a good-faith effort to keep her as a happy client – she rejected our offer. We never like to see a client's car suffer a failure this expensive, but it is a reality and a risk of buying and owning a car of this age. Refunding the $6,100 of the repair from July isn't reasonable because we rectified a legitimate problem with the head gaskets, played it safe by also replacing the oil cooler, as well as made a more routine repair of a rear main seal and clutch replacement, which itself constituted a large portion of the $6,101.59 repair expense. We understand why Susan wishes to minimize her loss on this vehicle and it's not even likely that the failure was caused by anything Susan did the short time the vehicle has been in her ownership, but it's not reasonable for Susan to ask Autobahn to participate in her financial loss because we made a valid repair to her car seven months before an unrelated catastrophic engine failure that happened to involve mixing of oil and coolant

One can only speculate on the cause of the second intermix, until the engine is torn down and the real cause found. Only then we can point some fingers.

I bought a 2000 model 996 from these people in April of 2009. Over the phone the salesman described the car as being sold new from their lot, being serviced there ever since, and having all the appropriate documentation for that. Not one word of this was true. They are a Porsche dealer although the main emphasis seems to be on the BMW and VW side of the dealership. I was a little shocked that a dealer would be so eager to lie about facts so easy to prove false. The $$,$$$'s bring out the worst in some people.

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And still you bought from them?

Maurice - Car was purchased by a Rennlister. He has identified the problem from a visual inspection and from what I understand it was fairly obvious. I'm sure he will post something here at some point...should be interesting to say the least. Maybe Jim will sell the car back to Susan when the repairs are done? I know she would buy this 996 back in a heartbeat. To be cont...