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YOUR RESEARCHWeissach Autohaus in CT and 2004 C4S vs BMW 135i
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The car was advertised as "perfect, not one mark, pristine, etc." but when I drove there to see it, they neglected to mention the one 3" crease over the rear fender flare which couldn't be repaired via paintless dent removal.
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I don't care what other people think whether I bought a "new" or used car.
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The only thing I really don't like about a "used car" is the uncertainty.
Use car" stigma is what's probably bothering me more
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The "used car" stigma is what's probably bothering me more.
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- don't know how it's been used, cared for or not, history, etc.
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The car was advertised as "perfect, not one mark, pristine, etc." but when I drove there to see it, they neglected to mention the one 3" crease over the rear fender flare which couldn't be repaired via paintless dent removal.
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To the OP, I'm still not sure what your real question is.
Anyone have experience in purchasing a car from Weissach Autohaus in CT? Good / bad?
I am considering this 2004 C4S, but am a bit skeptical over the asking price of $48k for a 2 owner car.
http://www.weissachautohaus.com/cars...3/090403.html#
Edmunds shows that the car should be in the range from $38k to $41k??? I am 3 hours away from them and don't want to waste 6 hours of driving time only to come home disappointed and "empty handed" due to my assumptions.
I know it's strange, but I am considering this over a new BMW 135i which is much faster and even much much faster with a simple chip upgrade that I will probably do once the warranty is expired.
Please no hate mails since I am a multiple past and current Porsche owner - having a 987 Boxster S as my main daily driver during the summer. I plan to have either C4S or 135 as a daily year-round "no snow" driver. I.e. - I don't go out in the snow, but the car will see wet weather. I will keep the Boxster S also.
Thanks for the input!
I don't have any experience with them, but I've never heard anything bad either.
I agree the price is a bit high for this market, but it's a nicely optioned 4S. I'm sure someone will pick it up. Personally I would bid about $42k for it, tops.
Ok, I won't flame you for the BMW...but really, an apples/oranges comparison. Two totally different cars. Drive both, the decision should be clear.
Good luck!
^^I hope you know you're just talking about straightline "fast."
That C4S is nice with the red stitching and red belts! I like it. I seems the previous owner knew what he/she wanted.
Yes, I am talking "day to day" driving fast. Honestly, NONE of us out there will ever LEGALLY truly appreciate the full capabilities of a car until we take it to the track. On that note, I've done my 15+ years of track time. Also, my Boxster S will pretty much out handle anything else out there.
I saw that car in their showroom earlier this summer. Loved it, just more than I could spend. I never bought from them, but they seem to know their cars. Porsche shop adjacent to their building is pretty interesting to go through. Worth the trip.
I spoke to them when buying my car. They typically get their cars from auctions with low mileage and do their own PPI. The also offer a one year 12,000 mile warranty on the cars they sell. It comes with a premium though and they don't negotiate very much. They have a used car dealership and mechanic shop overhead to support.
At the end of the day, I think you can get a better deal going private party with full records; perhaps even with CPO.
The 135 is faster stock. It's not just faster "chipped". It's MUCH faster chipped since a $600 chip will put in 400
rear
wheel hp.
But anyway, the point I am trying to make in the previous posts is that on "daily" driving where I am not exploring the full capabilities of either car, the handling of the C4S will not that much be more appreciable driving at 5/10ths than the 135.
It seems like you have your mind made up about the 135 because of its "speed." One reason one would pick the C4S over the 135 is the handling (and the fact that it's a 911). Yet you say it doesn't matter that it handles well because it will be a daily driver.
So the question to you is...why consider the C4S at all?
I don't know about the others' experience with the 135 but I've "encountered" a couple of stock 135s and the results were not in their favor.
Good luck "trying" to decide.
I saw a 135 in my neighborhood yesterday. Personally I like the looks of the C4S much better. However, I do respect the performance of the 135. A big, turbocharged engine in a small car is an intoxicating combination. I'm sure it's a blast to drive one.
I agree with the previous comments - the C4S you are considering is very nice. It is well equipped and I really like the red stitching on the interior.
Good luck with your choice.
I think the "bias" may be on your side. I've encountered several Porsche owners who feel "protective" of their purchases regardless of simple facts. Go figure that this post is in a Porsche forum...my bad.
I'm considering the C4S since I think it's the best looking 911 within reason. I'd buy a new 997 right now for it not for the fact that the interior is so similar to my Boxster that it wouldn't feel like I was driving a new/different car. My CFO (wife) says so also. I happen to really like "whale tail" 964's also, but I would purchase that car more as a collection vs. as a daily driver.
To your point, with "handling" being removed from the equation, the C4S looks better and has AWD. The 135 is faster, is more practical and has the benefit of being under warranty. The 135 nowhere looks as good as the C4S. Also, the C4S would be our first "used" car purchase so we are somewhat weary of that.
And lastly, regarding your results with 135's, I've "encountered" C5 and C6 Corvette owners with my Boxster S to which the results were not in their favor either. But this only means a few things: 1) they suck as drivers, 2) their car is broken, or more likely 3) they didn't even know you were in the other lane "racing" or that they weren't even trying. It doesn't mean that my Boxster S, regardless of factory equipment, is faster. With the stock flat 300 ft-lbs of torque available through most of the rpms on the 135, not only is the 135 faster, it feels that much faster also. The C4S engine, while no slouch, has a noticeable "dip" in the torque curve. My wife and I have driven the C4S "at speed" on the autobahn (see avatar with my wife driving). On a test drive, my wife even said the 135 is faster. For me to notice is one thing...for her to even notice means that much more! (Luckily, she doesn't spend time on the forums or I'd be in trouble for writing that.)
Back to my other point... this C4S does look pretty nice with the subtle yet noticeable red stitching. I'm not sure about the silver painted center console, however. Makes me think I may paint it Guards Red, but the color may be too overwhelming.
I seriously considered a 335 2 years ago, and it is relatively close in feel. The 135 is more "raw" than the 335, quicke, smaller, and more tossable but still IMO not a true sports car like the 911.
Since you have a the Boxster S for weekends, understandably the appeal of the brand new BMW is strong for daily use. A used car is a used car, any way you slice it, and the free service and worry-free past have to be factored in.
As to other thoughts, I found my prior BMWs (owned a 7, a 5, and many 3s) poor foul weather vehicles, particularly snow. My 911 isn't a C4, so can't speak to how it does in the yuk.
Also, very subjectively, visually I find the 911 a work of art, but the 135 a bathtub on wheels. I haven't been a fan of BMWs save the latest Z since Bangle took over, and although he is gone, his influence isn't forgotten. To each his own in the looks department, but there is a visual balance to the 911 that the 135 can't match.
Anyway, both are great cars, can't go wrong either way.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Still, I don't see the point of comparing apples to oranges.
So now you're saying the following:
C4S: Beautiful and AWD
135: Torquey and "fast" (but fugly)
And you're asking the 996 forum which one you should go for. We have 996's, what do you think we'd say?
BTW, I came from an AP1 S2000 to an E46 M3 to my 996 C4S, while having owned a W208 CLK430, E39 540i, E65 750i, and W211 E55 AMG at the same time. No Porsche bias here.
But I'll tell you, once I drove the 996 (C2 and C4S), I was hooked even coming from an E46 M3 (dinan stage 3, ltw fw, cat-back Ti exh.). I'm sure you felt the same when you got your 987?
So again the question arises...what's the point of comparing the 135i to these cars (996, 987, 997, etc) when they're made not just for straightline but overall driving experience.
Why aren't Subuarus and Misubishi EVOs in this 0-60 comparison? It should say something when you are comparing a new production model car to a Porsche that has been around since 2002...
Phil Cracco runs WAH and Dan Jacobs is responsible for the Hairy Dog Grrrrage across the way. They work together to choose and prepare cars sold @ WAH. Basically, Phil's the $$$ and Dan's the wrench and brains. Really nice show room, honest genuine guys but they definately have some overhead to cover. Bottomline, if you buy a car from them, they will take care of you. It's worth the trip to meet Phil and Dan you'll get that warm fuzzy feeling and feel good about spending more than it's worth
All kidding aside, Phil will talk to you all day about cars even if you have no intention of buying one of his.... you won't be wasting you time.
Yeah, I was going to mention the Evo and STi but assumed the OP wants to stick with European cars. If it's turbo and torque he's after, then those two cars with AWD would be great cars.
There's the bias. But anyway, to your point, the Boxster S (and Cayman S) are the best handling Porsches we've ever driven. We've driven most at speed except for the Carrera GT (not enough rich friends to let us test drive!). We even like it handling-wise than the 997. Your E46 M3 was a pig on ice and I don't care what suspension was put in. I had a very modded E36 M3 supercharged posting about 310 hp to rear wheels with adjustable suspension all around trying to replicate the feel of my E30 M3... but my Boxster S was that much better.
I should have guessed that you have a C4S given the "holier than thou" attitude. Have you even driven a 135? If you can't post anything "constructive", why bother? Anytime I posted on other's threads, I always provide constructive information and not "hate posts". Feel free to skip on this thread please. I'm only interested in constructive feedback.
And honestly, your attitude is really a detractor to having others want to buy a Porsche. This is what gives other "nice" Porsche owners a bad reputation.
M3Armand, you missed my C4S by one month. It was without any question the most perfect, lowest mileage (3450 miles) 2004 in the US. It sold for WELL under the asking price of that 20K mile car you're interested in. That car should sell for no more than $40K.
No "holier than thou" attitude here. I'm going back to the same point... apples-to-oranges.
Yes, the E46 M3 is a even with any sort of suspension. Yes, I've driven the 135, 335, E92 and E90 M3.
It seems you only want to hear what favors your decision?
Again, good luck.
BTW, grow a thicker skin man. It's the internet.
mr. armand,
happy to hear you are in this position. that said, i dont see any bias coming from arnee, rather, he's giving you his honest thoughts.
from what i can garner in the thread, it sounds like you know plenty about both cars, have your mind pretty much made up about what you want, dont have enough money to get the one you want, and cant sack up enough to get the alternative.
if i was you, i'd tell my cfo i'm readjusting the budget to get choice #1. or better yet, just do it.
"i'm a man" - mike gundy
regards,
adam
ps. FWIW, my car looks exactly like the one you're considering buying, both exterior and interior wise, except i have CF all over the interior (door handles, steering wheel, clusters, consoles, shifter, etc etc) and a navi. i say go for it dude.
Oh Phil don't I know it!!! I would have let you visit the car every so often, too!
I PM'ed you to that effect last week or two to see what you got for it, remember? Seriously, had I shopped sooner, I most likely would have purchased your car. Another person's car also looks great, but it's located in Hawaii!!! I would have to cough up a family vacation on top of the cost of the car.
I agree that at face value, the car should be in the $38k to $41k range. But I hate to say or be a "wouldjatake" when I haven't even seen the car. The kicker is, they are 3 hours EACH way for me.
I saw and drove this car at Herb Chambers... they claim and write it to be a "1 owner" car in their description until we pulled the CARFAX... 3 owners. I hate this bait and switch tactic. Plus, the car was filthy... I felt like taking a shower after driving it. Although the car's paintwork was 3.5 to 4.5, the rear bumper (plastic and doesn't register on a paint meter) was painted (badly at that) and the front bumper had remnants of people "parking by feel". I actually asked them if they could say the car was worth $50k with a straight face....they said "no". Well, at least I got that out of them. He said the car was a 9 out of 10. I said that must be on some "exponential" scale. The car had dings, wheel curb rash, etc.. did I already say it was filthy?
http://chambers.porschedealer.com/20...00708/info.php
So needless to say, I hate disappointments and things that are "not as advertised". Driving 6 hours total to Weissach with potentially a crying baby would make me want to hurt somebody if the cars were not as advertised.
Nope, you certainly cannot... which is why this decision isn't exactly easy. And yes, the C4S is a gorgeous car. I actually think it looks better than the 996 TT especially with the Sport Techno wheels. It looks quite elegant.
"I'm a man"... heeheehehe... this reminds me of that song... here it is for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj4vLZJhNEk
No, my mind isn't made up. The "used car" stigma is what's probably bothering me more. And I think the 135 will actually cost MORE than the C4S... And since my wife is a car nut herself, SHE actually wants either of these cars instead and I'm the one (CEO privilege) putting my foot down since I'm the one who needs a daily driver and not her. Granted, these are not daily drivers. But we have too many summer cars as it is and already have garage issues.
http://www.weissachautohaus.com/cars...B/090803B.html
http://www.weissachautohaus.com/cars...B/090604B.html
I did e-mail Phil from Weissach and all three cars are still available. We're vacationing at the Cape at the moment but will see if we can plan to take a look at the cars soon. Traveling is tough with a 6 month old. So it's quite a production traveling with a baby.
A friend of mine at work bought a 135i recently and I had a chance to take it out after the break-in period. My frame of reference is my '99 C2 so it may not be quite the same as the C4S, but I didn't find the power to be that different. I realize the torque is alot higher, but at the top end, my car still felt like it had more punch. Maybe it was the weight difference as well... Just interesting that so many have stated that the 135 is SOOO much faster. I tend to disagree. And in a turn/curve, fuggeddabboudit!
It's hard for me to believe Chambers would advertise this '03 C4S for $50K!! Based on the market it's worth in the mid to high $30K range at best, given it's condition. When I tell you my car didn't have a mark on it anywhere and sold for way less than Chambers asking price for their '03, believe it. Salesmen will say anything to sell a car. When I was originally in the market, I looked at a 3K mile '04 at Bentley of Long Island. The car was advertised as "perfect, not one mark, pristine, etc." but when I drove there to see it, they neglected to mention the one 3" crease over the rear fender flare which couldn't be repaired via paintless dent removal. I would have had to repaint the entire rear quarter panel. My car, from Isringhausen was perfect as advertised.
If this is the real issue, then I suggest you buy a bus pass and save up until you can buy a new car of your choice. The Porsche is my first "used car" and I don't think I will ever buy a new car without considering the value of the same car used.
New car pride is subjective. Unless one is a total car nut, people do not know that you bought a new car or "new to you" car. I still have people coming up to me asking if I like my new Porsche. This is a 9 year old car with 87K miles.
I loved my free maintainance from BMW but have experienced the service level drop since 2003. I find the dealer techs average at best and prefer a good Indy. The disconnect between BMW service advisors and techs in the maintainance facilities gives me no confidence.
I'm with Arnee on this one.
To the OP, I'm still not sure what your real question is. Weighing the looks of one car against the speed of another seems odd to me. No matter what you see on paper, you are comparing a high end sports car to a sedan. Two completely different machines.
One of these cars should talk to you, captivate you, more. If not, then the C4S isn't worth the time/effort/money.
Why not look at a used 135? Cheaper, and still w/ warranty?
How is the 135 speedy? From my research it's not that much lighter than the 3 series. Ok, the wheelbase is different, so it should handle differently, but faster, w/ 30 less hp?
And how is it possible to go from 300hp to 400hp with only a chip?
The only thing I really don't like about a "used car" is the uncertainty. I.e. - don't know how it's been used, cared for or not, history, etc. I don't care what other people think whether I bought a "new" or used car.
I'm very particular and "clean". I would have zero issues buying a car from my twin. Actually, I would have bought Phil's car easily. On all my cars, not one shoe has ever stepped on the floormats. When I sold a 9 year old car last year, the new owner asked, "are these new floormats?" I said, "No, these are original and have never been stepped on." I always used Weathertech floormats on all past and current cars. Record-wise, I even write down
each and every gas fillup
.... no kidding. Yes, I'm neurotic and I like it that way...
But having said that, there's something "liberating" about not having to do that. My wife still has one of her cars prior to us getting married. That car does not have any gas fillup recorded or does it have as good a record keeping (still good, but not to my standards). It feels good to just "drive it". By buying a used car, I don't think I'd have the same urge to clay/seal/wax bimonthly and remove the wheels to P21S/clay/seal/wax them. Although I find it relaxing/therapuetic, owning several cars is starting to make this a chore.
Didn't you ever like two different women at the same time even though they were both very different from each other?
I'm not looking at a used 135 since I can still order that car to my spec.
As I said in previous posts, the C4S is a very nice looking elegant car. It has a timeless look to it also. When my wife and I went to Germany through the Porsche Travel club in late 2004, we drove that car "at speed" (check out avatar). Unfortunately, we could no longer order the car to our spec then since the 997's were out.
The 135 is 200 lbs lighter than the 3 series with the same 300 hp / 300 ft-lbs engine.
You can easily get more power out of turbos. This is why you can get monster 996TT's with 600 hp easily. Check out JB3 or Vishnu tuning. 400 rwhp is through chip, full exhaust, intake, injectors.
The C4S weighs less, has AWD and about 20 extra HP...the stock 135i is not faster. It's very close, but anyone driving stock examples and claiming that one is noticeably quicker than the other is confused. As for the chip, sure, that'll make the 135i faster, but I've never understood the logic of comparing a modded vehicle to a stock vehicle.
They're both great cars, but the choice would be a no-brainer for me.
Yeah, you sum it up well. Like I said in my previous post, it seems the OP has already made up his mind about the 135 but is still considering the "what if" scenarios of getting a C4S instead.
Newsflash!!!! So tonight I took my wife to a nice dinner at "28 Atlantic" at the Cape (for those familiar with the area)... So she says, "Why are you on the computer so much?". So I explain the whole thing to her...now get this... she says...
Why not just get them both?
Of course, I didn't show her the inner kid inside me that was doing cartwheels... But I figured she knew that's what was happening...
So now the task at hand is, I need to find a nice clean C4S!!!
Funny! But it wouldn't be worth it with her best friend from college...Other friends...maybe...
So her exact words were, "I'm going to need a daily driver soon and the only car I'd consider right now is the 135, so you might as well get the C4S."
For you single guys out there...marry a car girl!!!
Phil, I just got the latest Panorama and I see your car advertised there... It's like it's haunting me! Does anyone else have a C4S like Phil's that they are looking to sell?
